In our hyperconnected world, it feels like we are becoming more disconnected than ever, so we are on a mission to bring people together through conversation. Welcome to 'The Really Good Conversations Podcast', where we delve into the minds of the wonderful people and businesses we have met in the processes of launching our card game. We will be uncovering their secrets, learning about their biggest mistakes, and sharing the key lessons they have taken from it all. So, if you're looking for an engaging chinwag mixed with business insights and a good pinch of fun, you're in the right place. Let's have a really good conversation...
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June 16, 2026Episode 7411 min
What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?
What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? In this special compilation episode, Amy shares how a family loss helped inspire Really Good Conversations and why it is so important to ask meaningful questions while we still have the opportunity. Hear the varied responses from this year's podcast guests as they reflect on the lessons, values and advice they hope future generations will carry forward. It may leave you considering the wisdom you have received, the stories you still want to hear and the answer you would give yourself. Key takeaways: Why meaningful questions can unlock stories that may otherwise go untold The importance of learning from people across different generations Wisdom and life lessons from this year's podcast guests Why we should not wait to ask those closest to us about their experiences A question to consider and share with your own friends and family Guests include: Maz Farrelly Isiah McKimmie Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries Andrew Sloan Phillip di Bella Maku Fenaroli Kylee Dennis Dara Simkin Nova Eden Trancript: Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I'm going to invite you to consider one question: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? It is a question from our first edition pack of Really Good Conversations cards, and one I have been asking all of our podcast guests this year. It has been fascinating to hear the different answers people have shared, so in this special compilation episode, I'm bringing those responses together. This is a shorter episode, but it is centred around a question that has been on my mind quite a lot recently. I have seen a growing amount of content online, particularly on social media, where people stop strangers in the street and ask them questions such as what advice they would give to their younger selves, what they would do differently if they were in their twenties again, or whether they have any regrets. It is amazing to hear the responses from people of different ages, backgrounds and walks of life. Seeing these conversations has reminded me why we started Really Good Conversations in the first place. Many of you will already know our story, but for those who do not, the idea began after Alex's grandad passed away in 2019. He was in his nineties, from the north of England, lived in Leeds and had served during the war. After he passed away, we found ourselves talking about how, when older generations are no longer with us, we lose the opportunity to ask them questions, hear their stories and learn from their experiences. For Alex in particular, it raised the question of how much he had ever really asked his grandad. It made us realise how easily we can move through life without having these deeper conversations with our friends and families. At different stages of life, we naturally have different priorities. When you are a teenager, you often want to spend most of your time with your friends rather than your parents or grandparents. Then, perhaps, you go to university, move away, travel or begin meeting people from different parts of the world. We were fortunate enough to travel and meet people from all sorts of places. It was incredible to hear their stories and learn about their lives. But sometimes, while we are busy learning about new people, we do not always take the opportunity to hear the stories of those closest to us. My great-grandad started our family business in 1920, and I remember wondering what it must have been like to start a business at that time compared with today. Why did he start it? What was he hoping to achieve? I asked my dad, who has been involved in the business himself since he was ten years old, whether he had ever asked his grandad those questions. He said no. I think that is often the case. These conversations do not always arise naturally. Sometimes, we need to make a conscious effort to ask. That is why I wanted to share this episode now, in the middle of the year, and bring together the wisdom our guests have shared so far. It is clearly a topic that is resonating with a lot of people, and I would encourage you to ask this question of the older people in your own family. But I would also invite you to consider your own answer. What wisdom would you want to pass on? Right now, we are in what is sometimes called the sandwich generation, with young children on one side and ageing parents on the other. The reality is that we can learn from every generation around us, from young children through to those who have lived long and varied lives. I hope you enjoy hearing how our guests answered this question, and I would love to know what your answer would be too.
June 2, 2026Episode 7334 min
Why Children Need An Analogue Childhood
Summary What's disappearing from childhood & why children need an analogue childhood in a digital world In this episode, Amy speaks with Nova Eden from One Collective Power and the Smartphone Free Childhood movement about how smartphones, social media, iPads, EdTech and AI are reshaping modern childhood. They explore what children may be losing to screens, from boredom and play to imagination, attention and real-world connection, and share practical ways families can build healthier digital habits at home. Guest Nova Eden is a leadership and systems change advocate, founder of One Collective Power, and a campaigner with the Smartphone Free Childhood movement. Her work focuses on children's wellbeing, digital habits, smartphone-free schools and parenting in the digital age. Nova works with parents, schools, organisations and policymakers to help create healthier relationships with technology, and has presented her work in Parliament as part of the growing conversation around children, smartphones, social media and digital wellbeing. Overview Smartphones, social media and digital devices are now woven into childhood, family life and education. But did we move too quickly? In this conversation, Amy and Nova Eden explore the impact of screens on children's wellbeing, development, attention and relationships. Nova shares the personal moment that led her into this work, why she believes children are living through a global digital experiment, and how parents, schools and policymakers can start to rethink the role technology plays in modern childhood. The conversation covers smartphone-free schools, EdTech, early years screen use, social media safety, dopamine, sleep, boredom, analogue childhood and the emerging risks of AI. It is a thoughtful and practical discussion for parents, educators and anyone interested in what children need to thrive in the digital age. Key Outtakes • Why children are living through a digital experiment • What screens are replacing in childhood • Why boredom, play and imagination still matter • Why "digital literacy" isn't the same as digital wellbeing • Simple ways families can build healthier screen habits • Why AI may change the conversation again More Information Collective Power https://onecollectivepower.co.uk/ Smartphone Free Childhood https://www.smartphonefreechildhood.org/ Transcript Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I am joined by Nova Eden, who has been at the centre of one of the biggest conversations facing parents right now: children, technology and modern childhood. Through her work with One Collective Power and the Smartphone Free Childhood movement, Nova has been working with parents, schools and policymakers to rethink how and when children engage with smartphones, social media and digital life. This isn't just about screen time. It's about what kind of childhood we're designing and what role we as adults, parents and educators need to play in that. Welcome to the podcast, Nova. Nova Thank you so much, Amy. It's lovely to be here this morning. Amy Even before we've hit record, we have already been talking about so many elements of this. It's been a busy year in the UK as well with this topic of conversation around social media, phones and bans. But what I first wanted to ask you was how you got into this space of digital awareness, digital wellness, education, and the use of devices for children and in education. Nova I've always worked with children, and my speciality has been children's mental health and wellbeing. A few years ago, my eldest son came to me and said, "Mum, everyone's getting a smartphone. I'm the only one without a phone." Of course, like every parent, I felt that pressure to conform to the social norm of giving my son a smartphone. I was worried about him being socially isolated during that crucial stage of his development. So I gave in to the peer pressure and realised very quickly I had made a mistake, because I saw him change. I saw that he didn't want to play anymore. All he wanted to do was look at his phone. Around the same time, I was having conversations with parents and friends, and everybody kept saying, "These phones and kids, it's such a nightmare." I started hearing all these horror stories about this child sending this naked picture or that child being bullied. I started hearing one too many awful stories about what was happening with phones, with kids, online. It was around the time when I read an article about a young girl called Molly Russell, who sadly and tragically took her own life because she was pushed harmful content into her newsfeed. So I realised that I wanted to do something about it and I really wanted to get involved. It was just when the Smartphone Free Childhood campaign first took off. I was very aware that I wanted to make different decisions with my younger children, and I wanted to help other parents really understand what they were getting themselves in for. Years ago, when I first started campaigning, there wasn't the awareness that there is today. This wasn't a big national conversation. So I was very passionate that I wanted to protect other parents and other children, and it snowballed. It became a big national campaign very quickly with Smartphone Free Childhood. It became a big conversation. I started working with head teachers and schools, and really trying to raise awareness. I remember people telling me back then, "Nothing's going to change." I'm delighted to say they were wrong. Things have changed. I've presented my work in Parliament, in Scottish Parliament and with the Department for Education. People really are listening. We now have legislation to make all schools smartphone-free here in the UK, and we are working towards raising the age for social media for under-16s, which is a fantastic step. There's still a lot of work to do, but we are definitely moving in the right direction. Amy Fantastic. Do you feel it is a bit like we've been living through, and still are in, a social experiment with all of this? Perhaps at the beginning, we adopted social media and phones before anyone really understood the consequences. Nova Absolutely. Our children and Gen Z are living through an experiment. I think it's time for us to advocate that our children are not the test subjects anymore. We now know the harm that's being done to children via smartphones, social media and excessive screen time. It's time for meaningful, accelerated change. We need to start challenging these norms that are no longer serving our children, and we need to make real behaviour change. We need education. We need policymakers to step up and implement legislation. Parents are struggling and children are suffering, and this can't continue. I think that not only is this now a big national conversation, it is a global movement. Amy Absolutely. As you know, I'm sitting here in Australia, originally from the UK. Australia went ahead with the social media ban. I think the jury is still out on the effectiveness of these things because, as we've touched on before, children are tech savvy these days and they sometimes find ways around these mechanics. But when we talk about screen time, is it no longer actually just about screen time, but also what else these children are missing out on in their childhood? Nova Yes, that's exactly right. I think there has been some negative press about what Australia is doing not working. But actually, we do know that it's working. It's just going to take a long time to see the results. We know that five million children have come off social media. We know that book sales have increased, which is brilliant and exactly what we want. Of course, the tech companies are making it very easy for these children to get around it. But what we really need to look at is not just the fact that these children are having excessive screen time, but what they're missing out on. We know they are no longer outside as much as they used to be. They're not socialising face to face as much as they used to be. It's the interactions and healthy activities that they need at this critical stage in their development. I think if we are going to tackle screen time in our teenagers, we need to look at what's happening in the early years, because digital wellness and healthier digital habits need to start in those early years. We've just had some recent government guidelines come out in the UK where they are saying that under-two-year-olds shouldn't have screen time, which I completely agree with. As little screen time as possible for under-fives, an hour a day, is what we should be aiming for. But I think it should be more than that. I think we should be advocating for no iPads for under-fives. We now know that excessive interactive screen time in the early years is causing developmental delays and speech and language delays. We know that children who have excessive screen time in the early years often find it more difficult to regulate their emotions. It's about what they're missing, because if a child has a choice between a toy and a screen, the screen will always win. What they need at that crucial stage in their development is free play, time, space, creativity and imagination. That's what we're really lacking. There's been a sharp rise in children going to school not being able to read, and not having basic life skills. So we need to raise awareness. I think everybody knows about smartphones and social media now, but we need to really look at iPads. If Steve Jobs, who was instrumental in creating iPads, didn't give them to his own children, we need to reconsider why we are handing out iPads to our young children. Amy Absolutely. That totally hits a nerve when you hear that about Steve Jobs. Everything you're saying resonates because we've got a four-and-a-half-year-old and, in his life, we had at times succumbed to him having the phone here or there and watching things. At times, you could then see that change in behaviour. When you came to take the device off him, it would be like, right, we need to stamp this out. One trick we did play, bless him, was when we did the long-haul flight back from the UK to Australia. Then we said, "The iPad doesn't work in Australia." That was the end of that. It was full cold turkey. We had been travelling around in the UK and having the device in the car. It's not until we continue to hear from people like yourself, have these conversations, listen to some of the research coming out, and speak to people like a child psychologist I had on the podcast about a year ago, who equally highlighted that children under five really shouldn't be having any form of screen devices, that it becomes mind-blowing to hear. I think a lot of people listening will also feel, "Crikey, we've all slipped into using them at one time or another." What's the thinking when we come into education? It's wild to think that when we were all at school, it was pen and paper, and now people obviously have devices. Is there the thinking that technology in education is automatically going to be better for learning? Nova I think we've been sold this idea that more technology equals better education, but EdTech is a billion-dollar industry which has crept into our schools. We now have over two decades of research to show that children actually learn better and retain information more when they are learning from books and paper rather than screens. We know there is a connection between their brain and their hand. Handwriting activates thinking in ways that screens don't. So what we're losing is deep thinking and focused attention. There is a massive problem with the attention economy at the moment, and children are having fragmented attention spans because of what they're watching and the type of content. So it's really important that we look at the quality of what our children are watching, but also what's happening with EdTech and what's happening to their attention spans. We know that in one hour of a child being on a device, whether it's an iPad or a laptop for school purposes, up to 38 minutes will be spent off task. So we're losing that ability to learn deeply. We know that the best thing to prepare our children for a digital future is actually an analogue childhood. Having that time to learn through pens and paper, human interaction and socialising: these are the key skills that screens can't teach them. More technology early on doesn't mean better education. We now have a significant amount of research and evidence to show that it's actually detrimental to their learning. Amy Yeah, gosh. Do you think we're going to be able to pull it back? Even for us adults, we're guilty of being on our phones, whether we're scrolling through content or having our attention spans hijacked. It's happening across all ages. But when we think about the analogue childhood, are we going to be able to go back in time almost? It's like we need to reset some of those human skills. Nova Well, I hope so. I hope that by raising awareness, which is now happening globally, with lots of people campaigning and supportive MPs, politicians and head teachers, we can. I think this is a societal problem and every single one of us has a part to play. There's no one solution. We have to educate children. We have to educate parents around digital wellness and healthier digital habits, and we need to have stricter boundaries. We need smartphone-free schools. We need to help parents who are struggling with the peer pressure to get those phones and social media at such a young age. I think it's going to take a long time, but implementing a minimum age for social media is a great place to start, because eventually it will become normal, just like we have a minimum age for smoking, drinking and driving. It's not going to be an overnight fix. We need to hold these tech companies and platforms accountable. At the same time, we have to take a holistic approach and we all need to do it together as parents, as leaders and as educators to make real change for the next generation of children. Amy We are both parents ourselves and we're living through this. Across the ages of your children, you have quite the broad spectrum. You've seen this unfold at the different milestones and ages that children go through. What is the biggest misconception adults still have about children, smartphones and social media? Nova I think the fact that some adults think we can teach children how to use social media safely is one of the biggest misconceptions. At the moment, these platforms are not a safe place for children. They are adult products that have been designed for adults. Whilst we know that tech companies are pushing dangerous and harmful content into our children's newsfeeds, and whilst we know they are creating dangerous algorithms for our children and pushing content that we as parents may not see, but these young teenagers are seeing, you cannot teach young children to use that safely. So we have to delay as long as possible while these platforms are not safe. We have to delay smartphones. We have to delay social media. In the meantime, while our children are going through this stage of development in puberty, when they're worried about what everybody else is thinking, we have to make sure they are not feeling like their value and worth is based on what everybody else thinks about them. That's what social media does. It's quantifying how popular you are, how pretty you are or how good your holiday is. You're never going to win on social media because there's always going to be someone who has more friends or who is more popular. It's an incredibly unhealthy environment and an unhealthy place for children to be. So I think it's really about raising awareness that, at the moment, whilst these products are not safe, we can't teach children to use them safely. This isn't a balanced conversation where we're being too strict. We know it's a dangerous product. Delaying it and giving children more time in their childhood, where they're outside, playing and doing all the healthy activities they need, is the most important thing we can do. Hopefully, eventually, once they're a little bit older, they will be able to handle these platforms and then we can start giving them education on how to use them, how to implement them and how to bring them into a family slowly, one stage at a time and one platform at a time. An 11-year-old's brain is very different to a 16-year-old's. They still have a lot to learn because their prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that helps to regulate emotions and make good decisions, doesn't fully develop until they're in their twenties. As you say, if we as adults are all struggling with our phones, which we are, if we're honest, then these young children with a prefrontal cortex that is not fully developed find it almost impossible to self-regulate. Amy Absolutely. With all of this talk, I often think back to when I got a mobile phone. Back in those days it was just a Nokia with Snake on it, text messages and phone calls. I remember I got the phone because my mum wanted to get me off the house phone, because at that time you were on the phone at night. I think I could have been 14 or 15 at the time. But I do remember at bedtime having the debate with Mum. I'd still be texting with friends and Mum was like, "Right, put it out in the hallway. Go to bed." I remember some of the arguments we would have about that, and it's almost embarrassing and cringe-inducing to think of it now. When I think that all that phone had on it was the ability to send text messages, maybe play Snake and make phone calls, the thought of a child who is 14, 15 or younger having access to even more, whether it's interesting things, engaging things, other ways of communicating with real people or just content, until they're going to sleep at night, is a horrifying thought. I think about how I was myself and I was only texting. Nova Right, exactly. Sleep is the foundation of good, positive mental health. Not having screen time before you go to bed, and not having your phone as the last thing you see before you go to sleep, is so important. Allowing children to have that time for slow dopamine, whether that's reading, playing or whatever it is, is what they need. What they're getting from their phones is this excessive amount of dopamine flooding their brains. Everything else in life becomes quite boring because, compared to what they're getting from their devices, whether it's their smartphone, social media, gaming or iPad, it becomes dull. We need to make sure we are balancing out that dopamine. Tech companies are fishing for our kids, and they're using dopamine as bait. It's incredibly hard to manage. Amy Absolutely. For people listening, at times it can feel like we're in a bit of a losing battle. But it is amazing to hear that the research and information are coming out. For people listening, if they were to try to make one meaningful change in their household this week, where should they start? Nova I think digital wellbeing is engaging in deliberately slow practices. Whether that's walking, yoga, mindfulness, meditation or reading, it's about allowing yourself to have the ability to focus and pay attention, which is what we're all struggling with because our collective attention spans are diminishing as a society. So really creating that in your daily life, whether it's five minutes or 20 minutes, is important. We all need to start training our attention and focusing our brains. When our brain and body are synchronised and calm, decision-making improves, creativity flows and we can function at peak efficiency. So, no phones before you go to bed. Have that time and space. No phones first thing in the morning. Have a device station where you all charge your devices as a family, perhaps in the kitchen. First of all, we're role modelling, because that's the most important and powerful lesson we can give as adults. Make sure there are no screens in the bedroom, no unrestricted access, and also have that time and space in the morning. That way, we're not starting with those stress responses if we're looking at the news or a busy work schedule, or if our children are looking at social media first thing in the morning. I think this is not just about digital wellbeing. This is about family wellbeing, and we all need to do it together. We all need to slow down, build that healthy, intentional relationship with tech and take back control. At the moment, these tech companies are in control of us constantly checking our phones and getting these notifications. One thing I always advocate for, which is really helpful in breaking phone addiction, is really simple: leave your phone in a different room. We know that the mere presence of a smartphone reduces students' cognitive capacity. That's why we have campaigned to get smartphones out of schools. By leaving your phone in a different room, you naturally have that time and space to regulate. You don't feel distracted. You don't feel that urge to pick it up, and you can have that mental clarity. When we're in control of our tech use, we feel much better. I can't say it enough: it's about role modelling and showing our children what healthier digital habits and digital wellness look like. Amy Before we go into some of the extra questions I like to ask from Really Good Conversations, when we make the effort to reduce screen time and reduce the digital usage that we're all doing, what are we intentionally managing to put back into childhood that has been missing? Nova Boredom and space. These kids don't know how to be bored these days. They are so used to this constant dopamine. We're all so busy. We're rushing them from one structured activity to another. We need to give them that time and space to play and to be creative, but also to have meaningful social interactions. Here in the UK, where it's really hard in the winter and we feel like we can't put our kids outside because it's cold or wet, just get those kids outside. It is hard, but it doesn't matter. They still love playing football and playing around, regardless of whether it's raining or not. Putting on muddy boots and going for a walk, or taking that football up to the park, is something we need to create. We need to create play, sport and activity because that helps with the neurons in their developing brains. It helps them to focus and concentrate. If we are taking away screen time and cutting back and reducing it, we need to allow them time to be bored, be creative, use their imagination and also be active. That's the part we need to play: get them outside and make sure they're moving, because movement is medicine. Amy I love that. While I don't want to bring in panic as such, if we don't course correct this and put the effort and energy in across the board, what concerns you the most about the adults of tomorrow? Nova It's so concerning. I feel that we are dumbing down a whole generation and we need to get a grip on this because AI is here and AI is coming. If we don't knuckle down and start getting this right now, it's going to be a catastrophe. It's incredibly worrying because AI could actually be said to be more dangerous than social media. Social media is a race for attention, but AI is a race for attachment. These chatbots are creating relationships with young children. Children might start using them for homework in an innocent way, but they can create meaningful relationships that perhaps they don't have. It's very worrying. We absolutely have to continue to advocate that our children are not the test subjects, and we have to get this right now. We need to make sure that we're giving them time for deep, meaningful thinking and critical thinking, so that when they do start using AI, hopefully when they're older, they will know the difference between using it as a tool and using it to do every part of their life, thinking, homework and business. These products are made for adults. We need to remember that. That's why we have to keep our children away from them in these younger years, because it doesn't take into consideration that children don't know how to use these products. Amy At the moment of us recording this, I think one of the AI companies I read about this morning was valued at over a trillion dollars. I can't remember the exact figure, but we also have to stop and question it. Amazing technology can do this, but then when you question it, this is big, big business for some people who are making a lot of money out of an audience, and we are that audience. There is so much we could talk about and continue to talk about on this topic. It is vast. It really is. We could go down so many rabbit holes. I think there are a lot of conversations for us all to keep having, and a lot of conversations for parents to be having with their children. Obviously, we are all about conversations, and I wanted to ask whether there has been a conversation, either through this journey or during your life, that has profoundly shaped or changed the direction of your life. Nova I think that just before I started campaigning, when I was having those real conversations with other adults and parents and hearing their struggles, I heard about a young child who sent a silly naked video to his girlfriend. Then they broke up. This was someone I knew quite well, and that video got sent around the whole year group at school. When you hear things like that, you think something has to be done. I feel like that was one of the moments when I thought, these children need help. We can't continue to just hand out these devices because we know that children are too young to be able to navigate them. That was definitely a real moment for me where I thought, parents are struggling, children are suffering, and we need to make real change. Amy That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing. As I said before, if people like you don't stand up and do it, you look around and think, who else is going to? I will move on and ask you three questions from our pack of Really Good Conversations. I've actually done a mix. I've got some from our kids pack here and some from our yellow pack. Question number one: if you could switch lives with any person for a day, who would it be and why? Nova That's interesting. Well, at the moment, with what I'm doing, I would probably like to switch lives with Keir Starmer so I could sort out this issue and protect children. I think that's really what I'd like to do, because they're dragging their feet and there are a lot of problems in the UK at the moment. I think we need some real leaders here to make meaningful change for the next generation of children. Amy Brilliant, thank you. And do you know what's weird? In my head, I knew that's who you were going to say. As soon as you were about to say your answer, that name popped into my head. That is so funny. Question number two: what would you do if you were invisible? Nova I'd probably go to my children's school and spy on them. I'd love to see what they get up to, because our kids are generally well behaved when they're at school and then they come home tired, grumpy and hungry. Sometimes we don't always get the best of them in the afternoons, and we're the ones who have to make them do their homework. I'd love to see them when they're happy, with their friends and at school. So, yes, I'd like to spy on them. Amy I love that. Equally, I love it when people say such nice compliments about our little one and you're like, that's so fantastic to hear. He's not always that polite at home, so great, I'm glad to hear he is on the outside. Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Nova Practice mindfulness. It's so important. In a world where we are doing too much, everything is so fast, and we are bombarding our brains with a tsunami of information, we're not respecting our brain's capacity. Start young. Start practising mindfulness and meditation. Learn to be slow and thoughtful with your actions, your thoughts and how you move through life. Be mindful. Find those moments where, when it comes to technology, you can stand in a queue and not look at your phone. You can wait at a bus stop or for the train and not look at your phone. It's the little things that mindfulness teaches you which will lead on to digital wellness. I think that's something that is not just a luxury. It's absolutely essential for all of us these days. Amy It so is. The final question I love to ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Nova That's a really good question. I think, because I've got my work hat on, I would like to sit down with one of the tech bros and just say, "What are you doing? What are you doing to the children in this world and the next generation, and why? Why are you doing this?" Because they know what they're doing. I think I would really like to hear what they have to say, because we now have internal documents and research to show that they know the harm that they're doing. Yet they're not making the changes they need to make, which they could probably implement really easily and really quickly. Amy Wow. I would love to be invisible in those conversations as well, because it is always food for thought. These people behind these companies have children themselves and families themselves. You do think, is the only thing you're looking at the profit line and not the impact? At times, you wonder where it's all going to go. Is it just going to get switched off one day? Perhaps it just needs to have an outage. Thank you so much, Nova, for everything you've shared today. Honestly, we really could keep going on lots of topics. I think what you've shared today is really thought-provoking for anyone listening and hopefully shared some new information they hadn't considered, or some tips they can take into their own world as well. Please share with our listeners where they can find out a bit more about you, the work you're doing, and anything you've got on the horizon. Nova Thank you, Amy. Firstly, it's been so lovely to speak to you and meet you properly today. In terms of support for children and parents, please do have a look at One Collective Power. We have created a fantastic website where, if you have any concerns as a parent, teacher, educator, child or teen, you can go to our website and find help, resources and support. So do have a look. In terms of upcoming work, I've got some big stuff with the NHS, which is fantastic. I'm really looking forward to supporting the hardworking parents and carers at the NHS. I'm also working with some charities and doing lots of talks in corporates and schools, and all the normal stuff that I do, which I'm so passionate about. I'm very lucky to enjoy my job, help people and do a good thing at the same time. So that's it, really. Have a look at our website, and if we can help you in any way, help your children, or offer any advice with parenting in the digital age, please reach out. Amy Fantastic. I will certainly be including all of those links. It's amazing that the work you and some of the fellow campaigners are doing is shining a light on this and educating people who are also in those roles of passing on education and information. Thank you so much again. Best of luck, and we'll speak again soon. Nova Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much. Take care.
May 18, 2026Episode 7236 min
Why Adults Forgot How to Play
Summary Amy speaks with Dara Simkin about why adults forget how to play and what we lose when life becomes too focused on productivity, achievement and keeping up. Dara explores play as a mindset, not just an activity, and shares why it can help us reconnect with curiosity, creativity, joy and each other. Guest Dara Simkin is the founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human. Her work explores play, creativity and human connection, helping people and teams build the human skills that technology cannot replace. Overview From achievement syndrome and success amnesia to the pressure to always be doing, this conversation looks at why play is not childish, but deeply human. Dara explains how small, low-stakes moments of play can help us feel more present, connected and alive in a world that often asks us to optimise everything. Key Outtakes: *]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-turn-id-container= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-testid= "conversation-turn-60" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> Why play is a mindset, not just something children do How achievement can stop us enjoying the life we've built Why adults need permission to be less serious How play helps us reconnect with joy, curiosity and other people Simple ways to bring play back without adding more to the to-do list For more information: Dara Simkin - https://www.culturehero.co/ The book Full Stack Human - https://www.culturehero.co/full-stack-human-book Transcript Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I'm joined by Dara Simkin, founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human: The Mindset Upgrade You Need to Stay Human in a World Ruled by Technology. Dara's work explores the role of play, creativity and human connection in the way we live, work and lead. In this conversation, we'll explore why adults forget how to play, what we lose when everything becomes about productivity, and how play can help us connect, create and stay human in a fast-changing world. Welcome to the podcast, Dara. Dara: Hello, Amy. Amy: Thank you so much for joining me today. You're regarded as one of Australia's leading voices in play at work. So before we get into why adults need to get back to playing, can you explain for our listeners what you actually mean by play? Dara: I think when we often hear the word play, we think of something quite specific. Let's have a little go, shall we? When you think of the word play, what immediately comes to mind? Amy: Having fun. Dara: Exactly. And I think that's a very universal idea of play, which it is. Play is absolutely about having fun. But when we ask adults what they associate with play, they often say dogs, babies, kids, sports, board games and so on. When we talk about play through the lens of serious play, intentional play or purposeful play, it's really about play as a mindset or a mode, rather than an activity. It's about how we allow ourselves to get into a place where we feel more open, more relaxed and more capable of accessing dynamic thinking. We're able to be more generative in the way we think. We suspend judgement as best we can. We're open to failing, experimenting and giving things a go. So when I think about play, it's really this capacity to arrive in our lives in a very different way to how we normally arrive: overwhelmed, rushed, up to our eyeballs in things to do, in fight or flight, going, going, getting things done. I always liken it to those "aha" moments we have in the shower. We solve world hunger in the shower because it's probably the first time in our day where we're relaxed, in our body, by ourselves, and our mind is able to open because of those conditions. Amy: Yes, I can totally relate to that. It makes me think of previous roles I've had in other companies, where you're sitting at a desk all day and then you go into a meeting room and it's suddenly: "Right, we need to have a creative brainstorm. Everyone has to be creative now." You've got a one-hour meeting in the diary where you have to crack creativity, and it can feel like the most forced environment. It's not what you've just described at all. When you're in the shower, you remember things. You have ideas. You suddenly remember what you forgot to do. When I was preparing for this podcast, I was reminded of that old phrase: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." I looked it up and it was first recorded in print in 1659 in James Howell's Proverbs. It's a saying we all know. We know it from films and popular culture, but I wonder whether we're really leaning into the meaning of it. Do you think adults have forgotten how important play is? Dara: One hundred per cent. I think we've actually created a culture that is suspicious of play. When we think back to the Puritan work ethic, which dates back 500 or 600 years, there's this idea that work is salvation, play is demonised, and productivity is a form of godliness. I think most institutions have been created around that perception. When you think about the Industrial Revolution and the point where we started replacing human labour with machines, we became cogs in a system. I don't think we've really been able to rectify that until now. I think conversations are being had where we look around and realise so many people are depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out or on multiple medications. We are incredibly unwell. I think we're realising more and more that the lifestyle that has been put upon us, around efficiency, getting a mortgage, having a nice car and this idea of success that's been sold to us, sucks. Amy: Definitely. The amount of times I've said to Alex, my husband, "I'm not sure about all this adulting." There's just such a long list of life admin to function as what we perceive to be an adult. We've both got young children, and seeing them play, and seeing their curiosity, is amazing. It's definitely brought that back to me. At what point do you think adults start to lose that natural instinct to play? Dara: I think it starts in adolescence, to be honest. When we start to gain more of a sense of individuality, identity and ego, we begin to compare ourselves to other people. My son is only five, and he's already talking about how other kids' clothes are cooler than his. I'm thinking, "Where is he getting that from?" Because it certainly isn't me. I'm astonished by this need to fit in and conform, but at the same time, it makes complete sense from an evolutionary perspective. We had to be part of a tribe. We had to belong and be included, otherwise we wouldn't survive. A lot of Full Stack Human is about understanding our evolutionary wiring, the things we are biologically designed to do in order to survive, and how the culture we live in can distort and over-sensitise those things, especially when it comes to belonging. We now understand so much about the brain, dopamine, reward and motivation. Brilliant people work in advertising and marketing, and when the message is "look like this, smell like this, wear this, buy this, do this, be this", that pressure starts from a very young age. So not only are we trying to conform and belong when we're young, we're also put into classrooms where we're expected to sit down, be quiet and learn numeracy and literacy. I've just been on a school tour for my son. He's five, so I was looking at what his primary school experience might be like. I asked the principal, "How much time do they have for imaginative play? How much time do they spend outside?" He could tell me about morning tea, recess and lunch, but when it came to imaginative play in the classroom, he didn't really have an answer. Amy: I absolutely feel you because we're in the exact same space right now. I had the same thoughts when I went on school tours earlier this year. It all felt quite restrictive inside the classroom. I looked at some of the classrooms and thought, "This feels the same as when we were at school." If we think about how we've evolved as adults, have we attached everything to having an outcome? Are we obsessed with everything needing some form of achievement? You talk about achievement syndrome. What do you mean by that, and how does it affect our ability to play? Dara: I came across this concept through a newsletter by a great researcher and writer called Michael Simmons, who is based in the States. Achievement syndrome is also this idea of achievement addiction, and it's really the thing that happens before burnout. As a society, especially in Western culture, we have a big obsession with burnout at the moment, and that's an important conversation to have. But based on the work and research I've done around achievement syndrome, the burnout conversation can be too late, because by then we're already at the end point. Michael talks about going back to childhood, where we get gold stars for doing the right thing. We start to realise that when we are good, smart or achieve something, we get accolades, recognition and validation. For many of us, especially those who had baby boomer parents, we didn't always get that validation at home. My parents had a hard time telling me they were proud of me, so we start to seek that out in other places, from teachers, sports coaches and so on. We start to learn that our value is connected to an output or an achievement. That gets reinforced when we go to work, where we get raises and promotions. If you're in sales, maybe you get the trip to Hawaii or whatever it is. So we double down on output. The more we do, the more we're recognised and revered. Then we start to optimise everything in order to do as much output as possible. Eventually we reach a point of diminishing returns. The thing we were once passionate about, the thing we studied for, worked towards and felt excited about in our twenties, doesn't give us the same feeling anymore. We get the raise. We get the promotion. But we're too exhausted to enjoy it or even recognise it. I think a comorbidity of achievement syndrome is success amnesia, where we forget about our successes because we're already onto the next thing. I speak from experience. As an entrepreneur, I have very much been on that hamster wheel of constantly doing, because it's endless. There's always more. Amy: There's no finish line, really. Dara: Exactly. When it doesn't feel as good as it once did, we've already created this baseline of chaos in the way we operate and live our lives. We have a mortgage we may be in over our heads with, or children in schools that cost $20,000 a year, or whatever it might be. Then we're on a one-way ticket to burnout. In the book, we talk about how if we want to stop sacrificing our humanity for success, we need to understand our relationship with success. How do we define it for ourselves? What does it look like? Is it money? A big house? Fancy holidays? Or is it something else? Amy: Let's talk a little bit about the book. It's called Full Stack Human. What does that phrase mean for our listeners? Dara: To keep it simple, it comes from computer programming. When you're a full stack developer, you can design a programme or an app from end to end. You understand the zeros and ones, the bits and bytes, the backend, and you can also design the shiny interface, the UX people interact with. From a people perspective, it's about knowing your own programming. Understanding your relationship to success, how you navigate change, what your biases and assumptions are, and the things unconsciously driving the way you behave and act every day. That's the backend concept of the first few chapters. Then the shiny user interface is about mental health, how we show up at work and how we lead. In the middle is what we call the five-layer stack, or the upgrade. That includes serious play, radical curiosity, embodied adaptability, intelligent optimism and strategic hope. There's a word in front of each concept: serious, radical, embodied, intelligent, strategic, because we're interested in the idea of being active. How do you become an active participant in your own life? I think we've created a society where we are so comfortable that we have a hard time being uncomfortable. We've created so many ways to maximise comfort, and I think that's doing us a massive disservice. When we talk about embodied adaptability, for example, it's about understanding how your nervous system responds to challenge. How do you adapt in a way that allows your nervous system to stay regulated and grounded even when things are hard? Strategic hope is about believing you can do it and that there is a way forward. There's agency in that. It's not just, "I hope this is going to be okay." The same applies to optimism. Optimism can be blind positivity or "good vibes". Intelligent optimism is about seeking fact-based evidence that a better future can be built, rather than just doomscrolling and listening to sensationalised media. Amy: And then filling your head with all the doom and gloom and coming offline in a panic. You talk about the human operating system. What do you think we need to protect or strengthen in ourselves right now? Dara: I think it starts with the responsibility to understand ourselves. A concept that emerged for me while writing the book was this idea of intelligent self-compassion. We're able to have compassion for ourselves and our situation because we are educated and aware of how we operate. I often say comprehension creates compassion. When we understand that we have nearly 200 documented biases that help us navigate the world, it gives us context. When there's too much information, not enough meaning, or when we need to act quickly, we make assumptions about ourselves and the world. Those assumptions are also inherited from when we were young, from our parents, caregivers, religion, background or whatever else shaped us. We also have an immunity to change. We are wired to evolve and not die at the same time. A lot of people don't realise that. We have this need to learn, grow and become a better version of ourselves, but we're also wired not to take risks because we want to survive. There is a psychological tension inside us that most people are unaware of. So when we try to change and have the best intentions, we sometimes can't do it and we don't know why. A lot of it has to do with our assumptions, and also our relationship to success. In the book, we talk about creating a clear-eyed view of what's breaking us. A lot of it has to do with our resistance to change, our biases, our assumptions and the way we navigate success and achievement. From an operating system upgrade perspective, we need to understand that as a baseline. A lot of people who have read the book have said it freed them from thinking, "It's me. Why aren't I coping? Why can't I keep up? Why is this so hard? Why am I so overwhelmed?" We berate ourselves as if it's a deficit of our own, when actually it's often society's pressure around technology, keeping up and all the expectations placed on us. So I think it starts with getting a baseline understanding of how our brain works. Amy: When people have that understanding, so much of it can feel like environmental factors. Whether it's your workplace or somewhere else, people might be listening and thinking, "That's great, but I can't really change how things operate at work. I don't make those decisions." So for people listening who think, "Great, I can read the book and understand this, but what action can I actually take in my everyday life that doesn't feel like another thing on the to-do list?" Dara: For me, it's about being an active participant. It's easy to say, "I can't do this. I don't have control." And yes, if you work in a toxic culture and you don't have the luxury of finding a new job, I totally understand that. But there are other environmental factors that affect your bandwidth and capacity that you do have control over. Look at the people you spend time with. Are you hanging out with people who fill your cup, who make you feel good, who energise you? Are you connecting with people physically, or are you just texting, calling, Facebooking or messaging? We need physical connection as human beings. That fills our cup, and we are often disconnected from that because we don't prioritise it. A great psychiatrist I follow, Ned Hallowell, calls it vitamin C: vitamin connect. We sometimes forget how important relationships are. Not just with our partner, child, mum, dad, brother or sister, but with friends and even colleagues. If work is hard, having a person you can go for coffee with, have a chat with and vent to can lighten the load. I also think we need to prioritise ourselves and prioritise play. The way we approach play is often backwards. Play becomes a reward. It's the thing we get after everything else is done. But everything is never done. It's endless. So if we treat play as a reward, or book one holiday and then get sick because our nervous system finally has a chance to come out of stress mode, we're missing the point. We need to prioritise small moments where we walk outside and notice where we are and what we're doing. We don't have headphones in. We don't have our face in our phone. Moments of wonder, awe and novelty. We need to look at play as an on-ramp to living more sustainably, being more connected and being more joyful. A lot of that comes down to thinking about what makes you feel good, and doing more of that. It's not rocket science. Sometimes, with self-improvement and the wellness industry, there's so much stuff we get overloaded with. Don't overcook it. What brings you joy? And I don't mean alcohol or Netflix. I mean things where you are participating, using your hands, using your brain, creating new neural pathways and getting involved. It could be going for a walk, seeing a friend, playing basketball or being present with your child while doing Lego. There are micro moments. When people think, "How do I change? What do I need to do? I'm going to join the 5am club and go to the gym every day," it can become another source of pressure. How can you do things that are low stakes, easy, accessible, doable and repeatable? Things that give you positive feedback, where you think, "That felt good. I want to do that again." You don't need to enrol yourself in a 12-week clowning course unless you want to. That would be my thing, but not everyone's. Go back to basics. What did you like doing as a kid? If you loved tinkering, go and do a woodworking workshop. Amy: I love it. So much of what you've said connects with other conversations I'm having, and with a lot of the wider narrative we're seeing online. It feels like we're in an era of waking up to how comfortable we've made life for ourselves, and all the technology we've brought into our lives. Now we seem to be in a phase of having to teach ourselves how to be human again and take ourselves back to the basics. All of the quick fixes or recommendations we see online, go do this, go do that, can end up giving us more layers. Dara: Can I just say: fuck the hack. For me, this idea of hacking anything is like, "Give me the quick shortcut. What do I have to do?" Just pause. Take a breath. Play is in all of us. We are biologically wired to play. It is part of our emotional system. It is as baked into our brain as fear, lust and seeking. Play is a part of us. It's not something you have to learn. It's something you have to dig up. Something you have to remember, recall and reconnect to. I'm not here for a play hack. It's about saying, "I was playful at some point in my life. I have felt joy before. What was I doing? Where was I?" Amy: If people listening are thinking, "I can't even remember how to play or what I used to find joy in," what could they start doing? Dara: I don't believe you. If you're listening and thinking that, I don't believe you. You just have to pause and give yourself a moment to remember. This idea of "I don't remember how to play" or "I don't remember how to feel joy", you do. You just have to give yourself enough time and space to unravel a little and access that part of yourself. Sometimes the best thing we can do in order to play is pause. Sit on your couch for five minutes with a cup of tea and no distraction. Take a few breaths. A lot of people turn their nose up at mindfulness and meditation, so let's call it the practice of nothingness. Can you do that? Can you do absolutely nothing for a minute? Amy: It's a struggle. I know when I try it, I immediately start thinking of all the things I need to get done. It takes time. This has been fascinating. Obviously, we are all about conversations in our world, and I know you are too in a lot of the work you do. I always ask: has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life? Dara: I feel like every therapy session I go to is a life-changing conversation. But I think a conversation that really shaped me was with our friends Graham Panther and Honor Eastly, who are amazing mental health advocates. We interviewed them for the book. They run an amazing community called the Big Feels Club, which is very much about community-based mental health support and normalising conversations around mental health. When I was speaking with Honor, she talked about bandwidth, and the idea that we don't have a resilience problem, because resilience is really indicative of our bandwidth. If we're having a really difficult time in life, we've lost a parent, we've been sick, work is hard, whatever it might be, our bandwidth is low. So our ability to bounce back, which is often how people define resilience, becomes inaccessible. That's okay. It doesn't make us a non-resilient person. It means we need to fill our cup again. That might be through recovery, rest or something else. For me, I have ADHD. I operate at a very different frequency to many people, and I can crash and burn. I don't really identify with burnout. I know that when my body starts telling me I'm not okay, I need to take the time to respond. Having that language around bandwidth, and understanding that bandwidth is not infinite, changed things for me. Each of us has a cup of a particular size depending on who we are and how we operate. We need to realise how our bandwidth expands and shrinks. Once I started thinking about that in my own life, I thought, "Where am I putting my energy, and am I getting it back?" A lot of the time, we put energy into things and don't get it back. To have a real conversation, I'm 40 years old. I've been separated for three years. I have a five-year-old. My dating pool is small. I also have ADHD, which means rejection sensitivity, hyper-focus and dopamine seeking. Dating for me takes a lot of bandwidth. Getting on apps and doing the whole thing was depleting me. I was suffering. I wasn't being present with my child. I had "boy brain", and it was taking away from the things that needed my focus, like my child and my business. So I stopped. I went on a six-month hiatus to recalibrate. That conversation around bandwidth changed the way I think about what I'm actually able to do. Amy: It's such a good reminder. I know I'm guilty of cramming more and more things in and almost thinking they all have the same level of priority, when often they don't. Thank you for sharing that. I think so many people can relate. Now I'm going to ask you three questions on the spot from our pack of cards. Question number one: if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Dara: Can be incredibly hyperactive. I'm late-diagnosis ADHD. I've had my diagnosis for a year, but I can connect to being this way my entire life. I can be very high octane. As a younger person, I definitely put my foot in my mouth a lot. As an adult, I've learnt not to be as impulsive in that way. While ADHD is a great way for me to think differently, be creative and do the amazing things I've done, it can also be really difficult. So my warning label would be: can be hyperactive. Amy: Question number two, which feels appropriate because we've been talking about play and childhood: what was there to do when you were a teenager? Dara: Go to the mall. There was a place I loved getting pretzels from called Auntie Anne's. We'd go to the movies and then hang outside after the movie. Because I grew up in Miami, there were also these all-age clubs you could go to. They don't exist anymore, but I have a very distinct memory of being 15 with my best friend, Melissa. My mum would never let me go, but my best friend's mum was super cool, so I would spend the weekend there. Her mum drove us to this club called Mad Max. We dressed up, went dancing and hung out, and her mum slept in the car park waiting for us to come back. So I was clubbing and hitting the dance floor at a very young age, having grown up in Miami. Amy: Brilliant. I love that. Amy: Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Dara: I could try to say something really profound, but for me it's: never forget to play. We play when we're young and we play when we age. What happens in that 40-year period in between? Even children are playing less now because of technology and devices. I know in Scandinavia, GPs are prescribing play for children, which I think is devastating and really highlights what's happening in our world today. But yes, don't forget to play. Do things that bring you joy. Amy: And the last question I ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Dara: I took a bit of time to think about this, and I'm going to keep it on theme with play. There's a quote attributed to Plato: "You can learn more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation." I'd love to have a cup of tea with Plato and say, "Where did that come from? What did you see? What were the Greeks doing that made you think that?" I'd love to chat with Plato and ask, first of all, "Did you actually say that?" Because who knows when we're quoting Greek philosophers. But I think it's brilliant and so true, and I'd love to unpack that with him. Amy: Fantastic. Dara, thank you for everything you've shared today. This has been a really thought-provoking episode, and I hope people listening take some of these ideas into their own lives and worlds. As we wrap up, where can people find out more about you, Culture Hero and the book? Dara: The book is available through most online retailers, so wherever you are in the world, you can get it on Amazon. You can also visit fullstackhumanbook.com for more information. If you're in the professional world, you can find me on LinkedIn, where I share different insights. My business is Culture Hero, and the website is culturehero.co. If you're looking to engage your people in interesting and dynamic ways in the learning space, around developing human skills, that's my thing. I like to say I design experiences that boost human capability around what algorithms can't replace. So yes, hit me up. Amy: Fantastic. I'll include all of those links as well. Thank you so much for joining me today. Dara: Thanks, Amy. It was a really good conversation. Amy: Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guest. And if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.
May 5, 2026Episode 7126 min
"We touch our phones more than our loved ones": Dr Niraj Lal on Life Behind The Screens
Summary "We touch our phones more than our loved ones." It's a jarring statement from scientist and broadcaster Dr. Niraj Lal, but the data backs it up. In this episode, we go "Behind the Screens" to understand why our biology is no match for the modern algorithm. From the "junk food" of digital connection to the looming challenges of AI and deepfakes, we explore how to build guardrails that protect our attention, our children, and our human relationships. Guest Dr. Niraj Lal is a scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has reached over 16 million listeners. With a background in solar cell physics and science communication, Niraj is dedicated to sparking critical thinking in the next generation. His new book, Behind the Screens, serves as a guide for young people (and adults) to navigate the ones and zeros of our digital world. Overview Why do we find it so hard to put our phones down, even when we know the content we're consuming isn't good for us? Dr. Niraj Lal joins Amy to pull back the curtain on the economic and biological structures that keep us hooked. We dive into the "Awareness Trap"; the idea that simply knowing how an algorithm works isn't enough to change our behavior because these platforms are designed to hijack our most basic social needs for validation and connection. Niraj explains the "frictionless" design of the internet and why we need to move beyond simple screen-time limits toward true digital agency. As global conversations ramp up around social media bans for children, Niraj offers a timely perspective on how to prepare the next generation. We discuss the rise of AI, the death of "seeing is believing," and why, in an increasingly automated world, the most valuable thing we can hold onto is the direct evidence of our human relationships. Key Outtakes The 2,000-Touch Reality: Why we touch our phones more than our loved ones and how to reset that balance The Awareness Trap: Why simply "knowing" how algorithms work isn't enough to stop the scroll Digital Junk Food: How to identify "low-nutrition" content that hijacks your social needs Beyond the Ban: Practical "guardrails" for kids that go deeper than just setting screen-time limits How to navigate a world of AI, deepfakes, and computer-generated truth The Ultimate Happiness Hack: Why scientific data proves human connection is still our greatest currency For more information: Dr. Niraj Lal website https://nirajlal.org/ The book 'Behind the Screens' https://www.uqp.com.au/books/behind-the-screens Transcript: "We Touch Our Phones More Than Our Loved Ones" Amy: Today I'm joined by Dr. Niraj Lal, scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has gained over 16 million listens. His new book, Behind the Screens, helps young people understand how the digital world really works. It covers everything from algorithms and AI to social media, gaming, and online behavior. This conversation isn't just about kids and screens. It's about how all of us are learning to live, think, and connect in a world shaped by technology. Welcome to the podcast, Niraj. Dr. Niraj Lal: You can call me Nidge, Amy, if you'd like! But yeah, great to be with you. Thanks for having me. Amy: Fantastic. Now, I have your recent book here, Behind the Screens. It feels like such a topical book right now. There is a lot of talk around the world about social media bans and kids' use of technology, and also our own use as adults. I'm really keen to dive into this topic with you. But firstly, you come from a scientific background. What drew you to understanding how things work, from your science work right through to the digital world we're living in? Dr. Niraj Lal: Well, I think I was always just asking questions. I probably was an annoying kid, but I just try to figure out how the world works and the things that matter to all of us. I studied science and art at university: physics, maths, politics, and philosophy. Then I concentrated on physics to figure out how to make the world work for all of us. My background is in solar cell physics, trying to make solar panels more efficient. I still work in that field, but I increasingly do science communication for young ones. The aim is not just to teach facts, but to spark the skills of creative and critical thinking. It is about learning how to distinguish true information from everything else. This book stems from that: helping a young generation navigate the internet and learn what's going on "behind the screens" so they can make it work in their best interests. Amy: So many of us are walking around and we don't even question how things work or the technology we're using. When was the moment you thought, "Actually, I need to dig deeper on this"? Dr. Niraj Lal: It went by degrees. You just look at adults today: catching public transport or anywhere you are, we're all really plugged into our devices. The average adult in the Western world checks their phone more than 85 times a day. That's every 10 minutes during waking hours. We touch our devices more than 2,000 times a day. We touch them more than anything else: more than our loved ones, and more than we touch ourselves. We're all a little bit hooked. Seeing the impact this has on our society and our civic conversations, how we speak to each other and see the best side of someone else's viewpoint, it's becoming harder. We're getting more polarized. There was a wonderful documentary, The Social Dilemma, that talked to tech executives who knew exactly what drives engagement. It's not always true information, and it's not always in our best interests. I wondered if we could teach that to kids before they get a phone, to give them a bit of armor before they go online. Amy: We put a lot of focus on kids, but as you highlighted, as adults, we're all doing it. What do you think most people misunderstand about how the internet actually works? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's designed to be incredibly seamless. It's like, "How does a fish recognise water?" It's just around us. That frictionless design is intentional. I think it's helpful to be aware of what happens when your device sends something online: what metadata is, how it's used to create a profile of you, and how that's used to figure out which ads to show you. Nothing is "evil" there; it's just how it works. If we're aware of it, it helps. I think the same thing will happen for AI. Amy: You've touched on metadata and algorithms. Why is it that as humans, we might understand this intellectually, but our behavior doesn't actually shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: Because we're human. Our brains evolved as social creatures on the savanna with an almost infinite capacity for being liked and connected. App developers have found a way to hijack that for profit. It's a bit like junk food; we know it's bad for us, but we still eat it. The difference is there's a physical limit to how much junk food you can eat before you feel sick, but I don't know if there's the same limit to feeling validated or connected. Amy: In your view, are we dealing with a technology problem or a human behavior problem? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't know if it's a problem so much as an outcome of who we are as biological organisms and how our society is structured around profit-making. We're usually catching up with technology, and we're trying to catch up now with legislative changes. The first step is awareness. Amy: Is it too late? Are we so far into it that we can't go back? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't think we're too late. It is tricky for the generations that have already slipped through. I don't know if we did right by the young people who were online before these social media bans. But every other technological revolution has found ways to have appropriate guardrails, and we can do the same here. It's up to us to say, "Hey, we want this to work in our best interest." Amy: I'm conscious of my phone use around my son. What are kids really learning from watching adults use technology? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's absolutely critical. "Monkey see, monkey do." It's hard to be those role models when we feel so time-pressured with work and life admin. Kids are observing how we do it well and how we don't. But the kids I spoke with for the book are actually quite savvy. They can see what's going on and they want to make it work for them. Amy: What is the one conversation parents should have before giving a child a phone? Dr. Niraj Lal: My tip is that it doesn't have to go from zero to 100%. It can be a gradual process. "Here's a device with messages and a phone; we'll talk about adding more apps over time." Keep the conversation as open as possible. Let them know: "If you see something that makes you feel weird or yuck, that's totally okay and you can talk to me." Make sure they have a safety network. If they're gaming, join them. If they're scrolling, do it together sometimes. Keeping that connection open is the most important part. Amy: We are now in this world of AI, and you talk about the difficulty of knowing what's "real." Are we moving toward a world where truth is about trust rather than facts? Dr. Niraj Lal: We're certainly in an age where any image or video has a real possibility of being computer-generated. Trust, independent verification, and being aware of your media sources will become vital. I think face-to-face, in-person experiences will become even more important: the things we can learn through direct evidence. Amy: What concerns you most about this shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: The conversation is accelerating so quickly. It's helpful to look under the hood of what a Large Language Model actually is, because that gives us agency. We shouldn't assume that just because an AI can converse in a personable manner, it carries the same empathy, value judgments, and ethical frameworks that we take for granted as humans. Amy: I've got some quick "Mythbuster" questions for you. Answer "Myth," "Truth," or "Somewhere in between." Number one: Kids understand technology better than adults. Dr. Niraj Lal: Somewhere in between. Kids are better at fixing the aerial or the video player, but they don't always have the healthy skepticism or that gut sense that something smells fishy. Amy: Number two: If you understand algorithms, you're less influenced. Dr. Niraj Lal: True. If you're aware of what's being put in front of you to keep you engaged, it helps you seek out opposing views. Amy: Number three: Screen time is the main problem. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. Screen time is a symptom. The problem is that we've created economic structures where we don't value social spaces or natural environments enough. We've outsourced parenting to digital devices because they are free and engaging. But when something is free, you or your kids are the product. Amy: Number four: AI will make it impossible to know what's real. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. I believe in our ability to figure out frameworks to verify information. It will be harder, but humans will always have the capability to understand what's real through direct evidence and the scientific process. Amy: What's something you're still figuring out yourself? Dr. Niraj Lal: All of it! All the theory in the world doesn't help when you find yourself doom-scrolling. I'm figuring out effective ways to stay healthy with it, just like everyone else. Amy: Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you? Dr. Niraj Lal: So many. My grandparents, primarily. I remember asking my grandma for advice and she just said, "Just be happy." At the time, I expected something more complex, but over time I realized that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. Amy: I love that. Simplicity is often the answer. Now, three quick questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Number one: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Dr. Niraj Lal: Flying! Easy one. And without carbon emissions, that'd be pretty cool, wouldn't it? Amy: Question two: What was your biggest highlight from last year? Dr. Niraj Lal: Going fishing with my kids and seeing them catch a bunch of fish. I'm getting into spear-fishing too, finding "flow" in the ocean. Amy: And question three: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on? Dr. Niraj Lal: The insight from the long-running Harvard study on happiness: human relationships, more than money or fame, are what lead to happier, healthier, longer lives. Value those close personal connections above all the noise. Amy: If you could ask anyone, dead or alive, a question, who would it be? Dr. Niraj Lal: My dad, who passed away in 2021. I'd love to have more conversations with him. Professionally, Carl Sagan. I'd love to hear his thoughts on how we can communicate the wonders of the natural world to young people today to help us with the challenges we face as a society. Amy: Fantastic answers. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like we've only scratched the surface! I hope our listeners leave with some reflection on their own habits. Where can they find out more about you and your book? Dr. Niraj Lal: Thanks for having me, Amy. This was a beautiful thing. People can find me at nirajlal.org, and Behind the Screens is available wherever you get your books. Amy: Thank you, Nidge. And thank you for the work you're doing to help us navigate this world. Thanks for listening,join us next time for another Really Good Conversation.
April 21, 2026Episode 7036 min
Why Smart People Still Get Scammed
Summary Scams are no longer just about dodgy messages or obvious red flags. In this episode, Amy talks to scam investigator Kylee Dennis about the human side of online deception; how trust gets built, why loneliness can make people more vulnerable, and how AI is changing what feels believable online. From romance scams to voice cloning, this is a timely conversation about manipulation, digital safety and the conversations families need to be having now. Overview Kylee Dennis is the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. With 14 years in law enforcement behind her, she was drawn into this work after her own mum became the victim of a romance scam. In this conversation, Kylee shares what that experience revealed, how scammers use persuasive language to build trust, why intelligent people still get caught out, and what all of us should be more aware of in a world shaped by loneliness, technology and AI. Guest Kylee Dennis is a scam investigator and digital safety specialist, and the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. Her work focuses on exposing online deception, supporting victims, and helping people better understand how scams really work; from romance scams and sextortion through to emerging AI threats. Key Outtakes Scams are often less about technology and more about trust, timing and emotional vulnerability Persuasive language is one of the biggest tools scammers use to create connection quickly Loneliness and isolation can make people far more vulnerable than many realise AI is making scams more convincing, with voice cloning and deepfake video adding new risks One of Kylee's clearest messages For more inofrmation: Two Face Investigations www.twofaceinvestigations.au
April 7, 2026Episode 6928 min
How Maku Fenaroli Quit Finance & Built an Art-led Fashion Brand
Summary Maku Fenaroli went from a career in finance to building Maku The Label — an art-led fashion brand from Melbourne that scaled fast and forced her to back herself sooner than expected. In this episode, we talk about the real tipping points, the behind-the-scenes challenges of rapid growth, and what it takes to turn creativity into a sustainable business. Guest Maku Fenaroli is the founder and creative force behind Maku The Label, an art-led fashion brand known for bold, wearable designs. With a background in teaching and finance, Maku now combines hand-made creativity with modern e-commerce to build a fast-growing label with a loyal community. Overview Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku The Label, shares the leap from "safe job" to building a brand in public. Maku originally trained as a teacher, then fell into the world of superannuation when she moved to Melbourne; a role that felt comfortable, if not aligned. Creativity was always there in the background, but like many people, she didn't believe it could become her full-time life. Everything shifted when she finished breastfeeding her second child and found herself living in T-shirts - but unable to justify the designer price tags or support fast fashion. So she did what most people only think about: she made her own. Starting with a low-risk print-on-demand model, Maku tested designs in real time and quickly discovered what customers were truly craving. We unpack the point where the business became "real": the six-figure Boxing Day sale, the strain of juggling a full-time job alongside late-night production work, and the moment she knew she had enough data to step away from corporate life. Maku also shares the cost of rapid growth, from customer service pressure to product development setbacks, and why building something meaningful requires both resilience and humility. Visit Maku The Label https://makuthelabel.com/ Transcript Today, I'm joined by Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku the Label, a bold art-led brand that's built serious traction in a short space of time. Maku started the business while working in finance, created a few t-shirts when she felt she had nothing to lose, and within four months, the momentum was strong enough for her to quit her job. Recently named in the top 50 people in e-commerce, she is building, navigating growth, marketing, self-doubt and the realities of backing yourself. Welcome to the podcast! Maku (01:06) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Lovely intro. Amy (01:09) It's a fascinating journey that you've been on and different worlds from your finance background to now fashion. And I thought it would be great to tap into that journey a bit more and for listeners to get a bit of an insight of how a change can happen in your life or direction. So firstly, take us back because before launching Maku, which is a fashion brand, you started in finance. So how did you end up in the financial world? Maku (01:39) Yeah. So I had a job in a superannuation company and actually back in New Zealand, I was a teacher. So I'd moved to Melbourne thinking I would get another teaching job. I couldn't get the position that I wanted. So one of my friends worked in HR for the superannuation company. And I went in for an interview thinking this would just be like a short term thing. And then I was there for 13 years. Amy (02:06) It's crazy where the years go. Maku (02:09) Yeah. And I think I just remember thinking when I started, wow, this is so easy. Like, it's such an easy job from teaching, you just go in, do emails and all that stuff, have your lunch and then go home and you're not there still thinking about the children and the program that you're going to teach for the next day. So yeah, I ended up just staying because it was quite comfortable at the time, but it was obviously never my passion. Amy (02:31) Have you always had a creative… Maku (02:32) I've always been an artist, yeah. So I've always been an artist, but it was always my side hustle. It was never something that I thought I could do full-time. I always wanted to. Obviously you always want to do your passion full-time, but I was never in that position. But funnily enough, the company that I worked for always used to hero that you can work flexible and you can do your passion. And so I would be the spokesperson for flexible working and I have my career as an artist as well. So I would talk about it at work as well. Amy (03:03) Oh that's brilliant. And what prompted you to actually, you know, finally take the leap, finally start it and in particular start with t-shirts? Maku (03:18) Yeah, so t-shirts obviously wasn't on the bingo card for me. But I'd just finished breastfeeding my second child and I was living in t-shirts and I wanted to buy a couple of new tees at the time and they were really expensive. All the ones that I liked that felt like they were me were in the $200 mark or designer t-shirts and I just couldn't afford them. So I was like, whatever, I'll just print my own. And there are a lot of companies around Australia, like the T-Shirt Company and the Print Bar where you can just upload your artwork onto their website and they'll print you the t-shirt and send it to you. And I thought, let's just give this a go. I've got nothing to lose. I'm not investing any money in this. Even if I pop these up on my website and nothing sells, I haven't pre-bought these t-shirts. So I did that. And of course, you know, my sister and cousin were the only people that bought them when we started. But then a couple of influencers that I reached out to agreed to let me send them the t-shirts and it just took off. I think one of the reasons that it took off was I was designing pieces that I really wanted to wear. So I knew they were wearable and they weren't just me trying to copy something that another t-shirt brand has done or, you know, trying to come up with the same formula that everybody's used to. They were looking for something different and for something really colorful. So yeah, it was a very unexpected shift in my career at the time. Amy (04:50) And at that point as well, by leveraging these other companies as well from a manufacturing point of view, initially then you didn't have to have that big outlay of, buying upfront all of the products, you could actually utilise that service, you know, print on demand, if you will. And then that I imagine gave you a good insight to what are people actually buying and what they want. Maku (05:13) It was really amazing and it was a really great way to start the business because there was absolutely no risk. You know, I would paint something and then 30 minutes later pop it on Instagram and people could buy it. And it didn't matter if the designs didn't sell because as I said, you know, we weren't buying stock in these. So I was really kind of testing what worked and what didn't. But what wasn't great was it would take people like 10 to 15 days to get their order because they were printing the t-shirts to go. We didn't manage this company. It was a company that -- this is their standards. You get your printed t-shirts within this time. So not great customer service, but great in terms of learning and great for us as a business who were just kind of testing the water. Amy (05:59) Very much. And we often talk about it's kind of putting something out there, you know, test, iterate, learn, then, you know, build from it. So not having that huge, you know, risk at the beginning is really useful. And many people, you know, who are perhaps, you know, working corporate worlds or even just other jobs, you know, they might have this idea to, they've got a business idea or something they want to do, but you end up in this situation where, well, you can't fully leave the job yet because you're wanting to cover your salary, perhaps. But then on the next side, you can't grow the other business because you don't have the time to do it because you're working full time elsewhere. How did you navigate through that period? And when was the tipping point that you thought, right, we're onto something here and I can consider actually leaving my job? Maku (06:44) Yeah, it was after we had our first ever sale, which was Boxing Day. Bear in mind, the business only started officially in December. And then we had our first Boxing Day sale that same month. And I think we did six figures, and we were like, what? So I think it was kind of that point that we started thinking maybe this is going to be something we can continue. And then the sales continued in January. We had our biggest month ever in February, which we've learned now that in retail, that's quite unusual. And I think it was at that point that I was working till 12 o'clock at night, setting up these artworks on the website that we were using, cause it was so manual that my mental health was starting to struggle trying to do the two things. I thought, I can either lean in and do the business that I feel most passionate about or we scale back the side hustle and I try and keep the two jobs, but I just wasn't mentally in a place to keep the boat. And my husband was like, let's do it. I back you. We had just brought on Colleen, the business advisor, and she was like, I think you're safe. So it wasn't without a lot of thought behind it. And also, although, you know, four months isn't that long, we felt like we had enough data there to say, we can comfortably quit our jobs knowing we can expect this amount of revenue for the next year. So I think that was what made us comfortable to quit our jobs at that point -- we felt like we had enough data to say it was safe for us to quit and we would be financially stable. But yeah, it definitely wasn't without hesitation and without a lot of strain on us both. Amy (08:31) And it is harder, especially with two children in tow as well. You're not thinking of it just solely for yourself. Perhaps when you are in the earlier twenties or younger, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. No one else is relying on me. I don't have really any responsibilities. But obviously at this stage, you've actually got those to consider as well. And when you did actually hand in your notice, what did that feel like? Maku (08:53) It was the best moment of my life, because although I didn't hate my job, I certainly didn't love it. And I think a lot of people can probably attest to the fact that the corporate world can feel a little bit toxic, a little bit draining. You know, when you work for a big corporate company, you kind of become just a number and you're very replaceable. So it felt really good to be able to leave that environment that I never really loved or felt passionate about. And also it felt really good because I just, as I said, wasn't in a good place mentally trying to hold up two jobs at the same time but my husband and I both felt really comfortable because like, if this doesn't work out, we can just go back to the same job. It's not the end of the world, we'll give it a crack and if it doesn't work out we just go back and find jobs, it's not the end of the world Amy (09:30) Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's having that mindset to think, you know, it's not like, this is the only thing that I'll ever do, if it doesn't work, it's like, can just go back or, you know, find a new job or a different job. It might open up a completely different area as well. When did you feel that there was then that moment that this is the true launch of the business? So as you said, it's sort of launched in that December over the Christmassy time, but do you think it was more so after you'd left your previous company that you were like, this is now it launched, or was there a bit of a journey in that? Maku (10:18) I would say we felt like we officially launched as a business when we started manufacturing our own t-shirts, because up until this point, we'd been using blank t-shirts from the businesses who'd been printing the t-shirts. And in that Boxing Day sale, we sold out of every single coloured, like, not the white and black t-shirts in Australia. So we had some customers who were waiting two, three months for their T -- it was excruciating. And I was dealing with every single customer service email with people like being so nasty about a T-shirt. You wouldn't believe how nasty that could be. And I was like -- struggling. So when we finally got our first shipment of T-shirts, which, you know, it sounds silly, but having our own nep label was such a big moment for me because it felt like I had officially a product that was mine. So that was around about April or May of 2025 was when we got our very first batch of t-shirts that were all ours. And we'd moved to a different printing factory who were working with us rather than just using a business who does that for lots of different companies or whatever. So yeah, that's when it felt like we were officially sort of making it serious. And that was also when I started really ramping up the ready to wear design process, because I knew that t-shirts alone was not going to be a business that was going to be sustainable. And I'd already seen lots of other people starting to come out with their own art based t-shirts. And I just knew we were going to have to pivot really quickly, which is what we started doing at that point. Amy (11:52) And gosh, I mean, how was that journey itself? Because a lot of people, you know, they might be in the creative space or the arty space and think, I don't really, can't really do the business side of things or the logistics side and all of that. But as you highlighted, not only are you the artist, you then actually had to go and source the manufacturing. So was that a bit of a process? Cause then you're getting into how you want the t-shirt to actually fit and feel. And I know myself, you know, finding t-shirts and I've just got here, yep, the branded t-shirt here, but would this be my actual desired fit of t-shirt? Possibly not really. You know, so actually once you get into that side of things, you've now got even more elements to think about. Maku (12:33) Yeah. And I mean, I just loved learning every little piece of information about it. And we tested lots of different t-shirts and then, you know, initially in the early days, people were telling us that the necks were just a little bit too tight, so then we fixed the neckline, or they were too long or too tight on the hips. And so we really took that time to listen to all of our customers' feedback and really design a t-shirt that just felt like it was going to work for everyone. And so I really loved coming to that process and, you know, working that out myself. And the other amazing thing that the business did for me really was give me a love for my art back. Because having that be my side hustle for so many years, knowing that really, I did always want it to be my full-time job, but I just never could quite get the art off the ground. You just slowly lose confidence. I was like, I'm not a good artist. The only way I'm going to become, or get considered or taken seriously as if I go back and do a bachelor's degree. So I was either gonna stop art altogether or go and do a bachelor's degree. I was like, I've had enough. It's just draining me. It's draining my love for art. I don't feel creative. And that was kind of when I started putting the art on T-shirts because I just sort of had lost all care factor. It's kind of funny because then the minute I just dropped all of my inhibitions was when I started this company and then yeah, found my love for art again and couldn't stop painting. Like, if you look around me now, there's just artwork everywhere. I just am constantly painting. So it was so nice to be able to get my love for art back. And when it's your own company and your own passion, you're just driven. So yes, it's difficult to work out all of these things you've never worked out before and try and find manufacturers and whatever, but the hustle is like what keeps you going. It's exciting. Amy (14:29) Yeah, absolutely. And you're making me think, you know, as you're chatting, my auntie is actually an artist in the UK. She's an amazing artist and she does a lot of teaching and she does holiday courses and all of that sort of stuff. But selling the actual art is hard. The reality is a lot of the very famous artists that we know of their time, they didn't become famous until they were dead. So if you want to in your living life embrace and enjoy the art, it is an industry that is challenging to -- how can you give that creative outlet? Maku (15:07) People don't often have money for art. I mean, I'm an artist. I look at my own home. Like the priority of when I do have money and if I'm going to spend that on art, it's like way down here. Whereas t-shirts and clothes, we love t-shirts and clothes. It's so easy to spend money on. So -- and drinks at the bar Amy (15:31) Yeah, definitely. Maku (15:33) So yeah, I think it sort of helped me realise it wasn't that my art was bad, it's just that it's a tough industry to work in and it's a hard sell. Amy (15:42) Yeah, absolutely. And we have talked, obviously, and you've highlighted actually just some of those hard elements, you know, on this journey and really, you know, any business journey, but we also highlighted some of the amazing, like positive stats you've had. But what do you think has been the hardest part to the success or the business growth that people don't see? You know people do just hear that, great, you quit after four months, it was making enough money. You know, people think of just purely the money, great, you're making enough money to quit your job, it's a huge success. What have been the things along the journey do you think that have been those trade-offs? Maku (16:15) I mean, the biggest one was when we sold out of those t-shirts in December, which was amazing because the business was growing. But sitting there and reading all of those customer emails of people who weren't getting their t-shirts, I was in tears every day. And my husband had to remind me like, you're not saving lives. You're just selling t-shirts. It's not that deep. But it was really difficult because you're in there and this is like your brand and this is your baby and you've got people like just, yeah, it was really, really hard. I think one of the biggest things for me to get through that was hiring someone in customer service to just take over those emails, because I just couldn't mentally deal with them anymore. It was so hard. And then the other really difficult thing to manage was learning to do ready-to-wear. I'd never done any of that before. The product development and finding fabrics that actually print the artwork and maintain the integrity of the artwork has been really hard. So just the sheer amount of money that's gone into trying to make these garments amazing. And then you get a comment on TikTok that's like, why is it this or that? Amy (17:18) It's hard not to take it personally. Maku (17:20) It's really hard not to take it personally, especially when people don't understand how much really goes into it. And I think one of the difficult things too has been trying to work out our retail price. You know, obviously I would love to charge the same prices that Big W and Kmart do, but we just don't have that buying power. I think, yeah, trying to find the right balance of charging a reasonable price, but being able to keep a roof over our heads has been difficult to manage because we've never had to look at things like that and we've never had to run a business ourselves and understand what are all of the costs in a business. Amy (17:58) And there's so many - genuinely the customer has no idea about all of the levels. Everything you're saying to me is absolutely resonating with, you know, our journey with the Really Good Conversations so far, because there's like, there's the physical product itself. That's almost like the easiest thing. Apart from your ready to wear part, because there's all of these other elements from whether it's, know, yes, the marketing, but the storage, the delivery, the logistics, the postage, and then exactly what you said, things, once they go into the post, are a little bit out of our hands. You're relying on the postal services or the courier services. And then when you get customers saying the thing hasn't arrived, but all the tracking is there to say it has. It's like, yes. So totally understand. There's so many just like unforeseen elements as well. Maku (18:52) And probably one of the most heartbreaking things was not being able to put my very first bomber jacket into production. So we'd made this really amazing bomber jacket with flowers and everything over it. And then when the bulk shipment arrived, the art peeled off and it was devastating. Yeah, that was one of the big -- anyway. Amy (19:13) It'll all become a book one day. Maku (18:17) Yeah. It's been a huge, very steep learning curve. Amy (19:18) As we go back to, the art is the thing that really, you are driving that visual element to the brand. We've talked about these other things, but e-commerce itself, is e-commerce your predominant main channel for sales? Maku (19:32) Yes. We don't have a storefront, so we're only e-comm and that's the side of the business that my husband manages. And he's really taken that on and is loving that. I don't know if you know how many e-comm bros there are, but there's like a little community of e-comm bros and they love talking to each other. And so he's really thriving with that. And I think that even if this business for some reason didn't work out -- but of course it will, manifestation -- he will always do e-comm stuff. Cause I think it's just business for him. Amy (20:02) Yeah. And you have been recently identified in the top 50 in e-commerce. So how does that recognition feel? Maku (20:13) I mean, it does feel a bit like it should be Kyle's, to be honest. But I suppose the business was, you know, created by me. So, but yeah, no, it was really great and really grateful to be recognized as part of that, especially being so, so new to this industry. Just feels like a privilege. Amy (20:37) Yeah, brilliant. And something that we were talking about a little bit offline as well is the realities of doing these journeys and motherhood and coming from previous environments, you know, when you work for somebody else, that structure that you have when you're in other companies, and then when you have it, you know, completely on your own, how do you structure your work so that, you know, you can bring the energy to what you're doing? Maku (21:03) To be honest, I'm really -- I do struggle with trying to figure out the structure of my day. And I feel like I've gone through a few different ways of trying to get organized and printing out a calendar for the year and then never looking at it again. Amy (21:18) This sounds exactly like me! Maku (21:20) Yeah, I've given it a few different cracks. And for the most part, I just wing it, to be honest, I'm finding trying to find structure in my day is probably quite difficult for me because one day I might be needing to do artwork, and then that artwork might take me the entire day. So then I've got a whole entire day full of emails to catch up with on the next day. But then if I'm in my creative brain, I find it difficult to leave the artwork the next day because I'm like, need to finish this. So it's a work in progress. You know, I miss a lot of meetings, but people seem to give me concessions because I'm a creative. So that's nice. Amy (22:00) Yes. You are the brand. You are the visionary. Maku (22:02) I'm not trying to take advantage of that. It's just more that I think people realise that when you're creative, you sort of get in the zone and like time becomes a construct. Like I just don't even have a concept of time when I'm painting. Amy (22:14) I just think this as well, in these, in the business and when you're creating a product and running everything that goes with it, there's just so many different moving parts. I mean, I personally find myself, I jump between so many different things and then that's exhausting at the end of the day. Maku (22:29) Yeah, you feel like you haven't really finished anything because you've gone like, yeah, it's like when you unload the dishwasher and then you put the cup away and then you see something in the cupboard, you're like, I've to go do that. And then you come back and the dishwasher is still full. It's like, that's my day! Amy (22:41) Well, definitely the one in our household, and I'll say this for Alex, my husband as well, is the kettle that gets boiled. Maku (22:47) And never gets made a tea. Amy (22:49) Then you walk away from it for a moment and then you come back and you go -- oh. I'll ask you then: in your creative process, obviously you've had slogans in there as well, but where do you draw your inspiration from? Maku (23:04) I would say day to day life, really, I'm kind of a person who like, will be doing something and then I'll go, that gives me a good idea. And then I'll go and paint that thing straight away. But also, I'm finding I'm looking a lot towards luxury brands, and brands that have a lot of print heavy styles to look to. So yeah, I'm looking a lot towards brands like Gucci and Dior, ones that are really heavily print based. Because I find in Australia, like there's not a lot of the designer brands that really do lots of art heavy prints. I feel like we've gone a little bit more on the, what's the word, like quiet luxury. And so there's not a lot of print based stuff. So for inspiration, I'm finding going to places like that, where they really like, push the boundaries of what clothing should look like. And then I take that and I interpret it into my way. How can I make that my style and how can I make that more personal to what I like and what I love? Amy (24:12) I love that. Now, before I ask you some questions from our Really Good Conversations pack, I will ask you, has there been a conversation that has profoundly changed you or the direction of your life? Maku (24:23) Goodness me. I don't know that there's been one single conversation that's been profound or that's changed my life. But what I will say is that moving into this very new industry and meeting lots of new people, I found that networking has been so incredible and that taking the time to actually talk to people who you normally never would and forcing yourself even if you don't want to, go talk to people, you just learn little tidbits about everybody's lives and you know, maybe one person that you meet might end up having a huge impact on your life. Like the Lisas conversation, know, I met Lisa and then ended up talking to her sister who became our business advisor for the first year. Or I met this really beautiful woman in New York who turned out to be the manager of Ford models in New York. And she was just the most beautiful human I'd ever met. And her husband was a firefighter in the 9-11 incident. I was enthralled and spoke to her for hours. And I think that's one thing that I've really tried to lean into in this new industry is really taking the time to speak to people because you don't know what you'll learn or what might change the trajectory of your career. Amy (25:39) Absolutely. And I think certainly there is that when you are doing your own thing, you've got that flexibility to go and have these conversations. When you are in the, again, whether it's a corporate world, like you have meetings with your colleagues or whatever work it is. So you're not going off and meeting people necessarily from sometimes completely different industries. Or there might be people who, yes, they're still in the e-commerce space, but it's a totally different product. But then there's still so much crossover and learnings and challenges along the way. So yeah, I totally agree with that. Right. My questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Question number one: What is one of your pet hates? Maku (26:19) People chewing with their mouths open or like loud eating. Amy (26:25) Question number two: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Maku (26:33) That's hard, because I want quite a few. I think flying. I dream about flying almost every night and I just -- how amazing would that be? Amy (26:43) Wow, I love that. And question number three is: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Maku (26:54) That's such a big, like, responsibility. One piece of wisdom. I guess it would just be to take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. But then kindness as well and kindness -- Yeah. I don't know. It would either be, be kind to people, kindness matters or take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. Amy (27:16) Both so important, that is amazing. And the last question that I like to ask all of our guests is: If you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Maku (27:27) Okay, yes, I did think about this and it would be Banksy, and "Who are you?" Amy (27:32) Yessss Maku (27:34) Right? Who is he? The other one was going to be Andy Warhol. And like, did you feel you were as successful as you were? Or did you compare yourself to other artists? I'd love to just really rack his brain to understand if he knew how impactful his art was going to be on the world. Amy (27:52) Yeah. And that's, to go back to what I said earlier, it's like, do they ever actually know until actually it's sort of perhaps past their time to really -- when you're in it, you know, you're doing all of the things to try and get it out there. Well, thank you so much for everything that you have shared today. Where can our listeners come and find out more, well, about you and look up some of your fabulous fashion products? Maku (28:15) Well, our website is makuthelabel.com. You can also find us on Instagram, @maku_thelabel. I share a lot of behind the scenes and how everything works and all of that kind of stuff on our Instagram. So that's probably where you want to go. If you want to actually learn more about me, if you want to just shop the brand, makuthelabel.com. Amy (28:36) Last question, what is your favourite item to design? Maku (28:40) Dresses -- or pants, no, pants. I love a good trouser, especially because I'm a tall girl. So I like to design trousers that actually touch the floor. Amy (28:52) Perfect. Well, thank you for that and best of luck. I'm so excited to see where Maku, the label, continues to grow. Maku (28:59) Thank you. Amy Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.
March 23, 2026Episode 6839 min
What Happens After a $47M Exit? Phillip Di Bella on What Success Really Is
Summary Phillip Di Bella built one of Australia's most successful coffee businesses, and sold it for $47 million. In this episode, we find what it actually felt like the day after he sold, how his definition of success has changed over the years, and what the next generation needs to hear about work and leadership. This isn't just a story about building and selling a business, it's about what success really costs, and what's actually worth chasing. Guest Phillip Di Bella is an Australian entrepreneur and founder of Di Bella Coffee and The Coffee Commune. He is also a mentor, speaker and advocate for innovation and collaboration in the hospitality industry. Overview Phillip Di Bella is the founder of Di Bella Coffee, which he launched in Brisbane in 2002 with just $5,000 and scaled into one of Australia's largest specialty coffee brands. After selling the business for $47 million, Phillip could have stepped away. Instead, he doubled down on building community, mentoring entrepreneurs, and reshaping what success looks like. In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Phillip shares the emotional impact of selling a business with your name on it, the cost of relentless growth, and how he lost 80kg to take his life back after burnout. He challenges the hype around startup exits, investment culture, and the "get rich quick" narrative flooding social media. You'll hear his views on leadership, resilience, and what today's business owners need to understand about patience, failure, and building something that lasts. Key takeaways What it really felt like to sell a business for $47 million and why Phillip asked for the cheque, not a bank transfer The personal cost of growth: burnout, weight gain, and what he changed after the exit Phillip's definition of success today and why it has nothing to do with status or stuff Why the next generation is being sold the wrong version of ambition Startup myths, VC hype, and what founders should focus on before chasing investment The importance of meaningful conversations, with others, and with yourself The one piece of advice that changed the direction of Phillip's life For more information: The Coffee Commune https://www.coffeecommune.com.au/ Private Coffee Collection https://privatecollection.coffee/ Transcript Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Phillip Di Bella, entrepreneur, mentor, and one of the most recognised names in Australian coffee. He started Di Bella Coffee in 2002 with just $5,000 and built it into Australia's largest specialty coffee brand, later selling it for $47 million. He's done what many dream of, but instead of stepping away, he stayed active, launching the Coffee Commune and mentoring the next generation. In this episode, we unpack what really drives him and what future game changers need to hear. Welcome to the podcast, Phillip! Phillip (01:09) Thanks for having me. Amy (01:27) Thank you so much for giving us your time today, because I'm really excited about this conversation. And as I've mentioned to you offline is, you know, to tap into a little bit of behind the scenes, a bit more of your brain and what makes you tick from the journey that you have been on. Because ultimately you have done something that, you know, many people are striving to do in business, launch a product, build a business, sell it, sell it for millions and sail off into the sunset on a mega yacht, never needing to work again. Phillip (01:43) If only. Amy (01:53) And you haven't exactly done the latter part, but what I wanted to tap into, because I think people, whether they do start something with that end in mind and if it is the selling or whatever. But if you could take us back to 2014 for just a moment when you did sell the business, how did that actually feel when that went through, that sale, for you? What was it almost like, the next day, to realise that is something you've exited? Phillip (02:09) It's a sign of relief, it really is. I think it's a combination of emotions. You know, a bit of anxiety kicks in, the unknown territory, a bit of disappointment, you know, you're handing over the keys to something that you've built from scratch. But ultimately, when you look at it and you go, hey, I've been able to build something quite remarkable, I've been able to look after people along the way. I've been able to, obviously now I can set my family up, which was very important with me being, my background being Italian, to set my kids up and take some money off the table because since 2002 right till you sell, you've got an amount of risk. You've got money on the line, you've got debts, you've got all sorts of stuff. So relief is probably, if you said sum it up in one word, relief. Business is relentless. It's even more relentless today than what it was in 2014, and we can sure unpack that. But because business is relentless when you're an owner and people say, what hours do you work? Well, you never stop working when you own a business. And it doesn't matter whether it's a micro business or a medium business or a small business or a large business, an owner of a business never stops working. The brain's always ticking and it is relentless. I'll keep saying that word. And so in summary, the one word that sums it all up when you finally exit and you know, and I, they wanted to direct debit the money into my account. And I said, no, I want the traditional checks. So I made them present checks and I took a photo of them on the table and you know, it was a bit of old school. The first thing that came to mind was relief. Relief because I was able to set my family up, set myself up and it was a validation of, you know, taking a punt, going out into a challenging world of coffee in 2002 with 2000 competitors, several of them billion dollar companies, several hundred million dollar companies, us being a startup with 5000k. Then growing to be Australia's largest specialty coffee company, which means, you know, it's manufacturing and supplying only into cafes, is that concept of specialty coffee. We had 11 % market share of supply into cafes, which gives you an idea of size. We built a prolific brand, we had an amazing team. It was just relief. Amy (04:21) And were there any points through the actual journey that stand out of times of just thinking, I don't know if I want to keep doing this? You know, some of my friends and fellow business owners, we're often talking and voice noting being like, what are we doing? Why did we choose this path? Maybe we'll just go get a job. Phillip (04:38) Yeah, look, all the time, you know, there's no secrets. I started the company in 2002, I was quite healthy, and fit over the years, before you knew it, I'd put on, you know, when I exited completely through the earn out and the whole lot and handed over the keys officially in 2017, I was weighing 167kg. I'd been traveling three weeks a month, I didn't have any work life balance or harmony, something I talk about now. And, you know, I look back and I go, it would have been much easier working for wages and it would have been much easier working for somebody else. And that's not a bad thing. That's why I made sure that all 130 plus of my staff loves coming to work and they've felt integral to the business, because the work team and staff are important and not everybody can be a business owner, but a business owner can't operate without the right people that are dedicated to the cause that are vested emotionally into the vision of the business. So I wanted to build a workplace that people felt a part of that success and the motto has always been, the more you do for the business, the more the business will do for you in terms of time off, pay, whatever, workplace flexibility, bonuses. The more you put into the business, the more the business will put back into you because I didn't want them to feel just like a staff member or team member because I didn't want to just show up as a staff member or team member into another organisation. But that whole saying where they say we do today really hard things so that tomorrow can be easier is something that I talk about. Everything was very difficult from 2002 to say 2014, difficult in different ways. From startup to growth to then being Australia's largest to maintaining that, to continuing the growth. But I look back and I go without that journey and without what happened there, I wouldn't be where I am today, which is, again, my kids are set up. My daughter starts university today, turns 18 in a couple of days' time. My boy's in grade 11, he's 16, just got his learners, able to buy him a new car. It really comes back to now, you know, sitting there and being grateful and looking back and going, I'm 50, I'm the fittest and healthiest I've ever been. My kids are in a great position and set up well. I'm personally in a good space. And you know, that's where gratefulness and reflecting is so important to look back and go, I wouldn't be where I am and who I am today, had I not traveled that journey from a young age. And not just from starting a business, because my journey started nine years before that, working for somebody else, which started before that at university, which started before that growing up as a son of migrants, learning good values and work ethic and how to win with people, something that a lot of people forget today. Something that I instil into my kids, grades are good, but winning with people and a good work ethic will always beat your grades. So make sure that, you know, that to me is the trifecta. Something I instil in my kids, something that I instil in my team, is that you need that whole person in terms of their work ethic. So what I talk about now, mindset, skill set, heart set. They're the three key elements and that's something that was important to me to bring, whether I was working for somebody for nine years or when I became an employer to instil into my team. Have the right heart set, the right mindset and the right skillset. Amy (07:41) Yeah, perfect. And something that we are going to touch on today, which I'm keen to dig into is this sort of, the upcoming generations. But before I ask you that, I did just want to check and you mentioned, you know, money. How has your definition of success changed over the years? You know, from the beginning, was it -- right, well, I just want to make as much money as possible. But again, now you're at that other end and you ultimately, as you said, have created that secure financial future. How do you think that topic of money success has evolved over the years? Phillip (08:10) Great question, Amy, and I'll frame it in two ways. Firstly, my relationship with money being a son of migrants and seeing my parents bring a family up on $450 a week, you make sacrifices. So there's no brand new car. There's no air conditioning. There's only one TV. But Mum and Dad had paid off their house within 10 years of arriving in Australia. All the money got spent on good food, good times, barbecues around the table, barbecues at the beach, no fancy holidays, no fancy cars. They covered what mattered. And that was a safe house and accommodation, great food on the table and great company. So bringing it back to the value. So growing up, my relationship with money was to have enough to do what I want when I want. To me, money was a resource to buy freedom. It was a resource to be able to buy a brand new car, which is why I love cars, to be able to fly anywhere in the world at the front of the plane anytime. So my relationship with money growing up wasn't about materialism and possessions. It was about, you know, being able to amplify what my parents couldn't do. We had a beautiful, a basic house, but beautiful, safe, big yard, cul-de-sac, grew up in a nice area. We had amazing food on the table, but there were a lot of things you couldn't have. There weren't any overseas holidays. There weren't frequent holidays, but every weekend we'd be at the beach with relatives and friends. So it really is prioritising what mattered. That upbringing instilled in me values that then I said, if I want to amplify the car I drive or amplify the holiday I have or amplify the restaurant I go to, I need to go and do something. I need to go and make something of myself. And that's where that ambition and drive came to be the master of your own destiny. That was the groundwork. That was the fire in the engine. It was never about materialism. It was never about being somebody. It was never about ego or emotion for the wrong reason. As you fast forward, and of course, we started, did really well and all the rest of it. I talk about now and I fast track for people to understand, that to me, that success is now a triangle. At the top is health and it's non-negotiable. And on the other axis is time and money. So if you are in great health and you have enough time and enough money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. It's not about the car you drive. It's not about the restaurant you go to. It's not about the wine you drink. It's not about the handbag you carry. You know, I look at my parents and go -- super successful. My dad's 89. My mum's about to turn 82 on the weekend. You know, I'm fortunate to still have them around. They're in their eighties. They're not as healthy as they could be right now, but they've been quite healthy up to now, but they've had enough time and money to do what they want when they want. Dad didn't want to go back to Italy and travel. He sent Mum back two or three times. You know, he always made sure there was enough money to pay for, you know, my sister's wedding and my brother's wedding and stuff like that, family gatherings. There was always great food on the table. They had enough time and money to do what they wanted when they wanted that mattered to them. So I put them in the same category of success as somebody who might have a lot more money, but if they don't have the time, then they're not successful. And I've seen a lot of people that have money, but they don't have their health or time. I've seen a lot of people that are healthy, but don't have time or money. I've seen people that have time and health, but don't have money. To me, what I've learned, and the key takeaway for people, is that if you have your health and you have enough time and money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. But it's identifying what you want, what matters to you, not what somebody else thinks or it's not about materialism. I always talk about, and hopefully it goes on my tombstone one day, life is measured in moments. Amy (11:50) Oh, I love that. Phillip (11:58) Because there's no removalist truck following a hearse to a funeral. We don't go to a funeral and we unfortunately see the hearse out the front. We don't see a removalist truck behind it, carrying the possessions with them. So, when somebody gets up and talks about a eulogy, the eulogy is all about the moments that people have shared, not about things. These are things that matter to me. Amy (12:13) Brilliant. And you've seen, you've just got me thinking as you've been talking, do you see sometimes a difference perhaps in the people that you mentor that those had the more modest financial upbringing, they got more drive and hunger to go and get that ambition than perhaps those people who basically just had everything available and on a plate? Do you ever see that distinction? Phillip (12:32) Yeah, of course. And I would say, wouldn't say everybody, but I would say nine in ten or eight in ten. It makes sense. And the theory behind it is, if you've come from that, you've got a softer landing. And there is always going to be, in my opinion, and for what I've seen, there's always going to be a different level of determination and hunger in somebody whose worst case scenario is not as good as somebody else's worst case scenario. That's just the way the ecosystem works, right? I love boxing and I box because I like the training, not so much the actual fighting. And I've had a lot to do with boxers. And if you look at the boxers and you study the best boxers in the world, most of them, again, not all of them, but eight out of ten, all come from a really harsh upbringing. They all come from an upbringing that was just terrible. And you analyze that data and you go, well, what is it? And it is -- when they need to dig deep, when they're getting dragged through the trenches in that ring, the person who's rock bottom is a lot harder than somebody else is going to dig deeper. That's no different in business, in the person who's rock bottom in business…is going to be a lot more driven, a lot more dedicated and focused than somebody whose rock bottom is not. And again, it's not everyone, it's not 100%. There's going to be abnormalities in that, but eight out of ten, I would say there is a difference. Amy (13:47) Yeah, brilliant. And you touched on, you know, some of the younger generations that are now coming up the ranks and maybe, you know, whether they're in education or thinking onto their business careers. But, you know, I feel like there's a lot of noise and especially on the likes of social media, about a lot of the get rich quick schemes and, know, don't work a day in your life if it's not something that you love. And, you know, it seems to be that there's now, whether it's the build something, get investment, exit fast or make $100k in a month in your sleep or nothing. What's your sort of view on this for these, shall we say, younger listeners and generations about that approach to business? Phillip (14:23) Something I see that doesn't fail is two things. One, the common denominator of success is doing what other people are not prepared to do, putting yourself in that position to do what other people are not prepared to do, pushing harder, faster, whatever it is, normally leads to more success. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. We only ever hear about the quick overnight successes, but do we hear about the 95 % that have failed? The hospitality industry, one in ten cafes closed last year. You look on the socials or you look at the media and you'll see the top 1% that are performing well. And people go, the cafe industry is booming -- because for whatever reason, shame, or there's not just enough attention brought on. What about the ones that have done it tough? What about the ones that have had a go but have failed? And a lot of them haven't failed because of their own issues or problems. It's economy based or they've been given the wrong advice or they haven't surrounded themselves with the right people. But for every one story you hear that's amazing, there'll be ninety nine that have failed. And it just proves that if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Like I said in the opening, not everyone can be an employer. Richard Branson says it best, and I was lucky enough to spend a week at Necker Island many years ago with Richard Branson, talking about a lot of stuff. But one of the things he talks about is an intrapreneur. You know, don't ever forget the person that works within your business that has entrepreneurial capability. If you want, and from that I took was something, the strategy that I've always implemented. I want people good enough to own their own business, but I've got to give them a reason not to. So if I want people that are good enough to own their own, I've got to give them a reason to stay. Now that's the intrapreneur in an organisation. So this whole thing coming back to the question of, you know, everyone should do it, don't work a day in your life. Well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a lot easier now in certain industries to stand out from the crowd, with different resources, social media, the acceleration of AI, all this sort of stuff. It's opened up a lot of opportunities, but for every opportunity that's opened up, there's been a lot that have closed down. I always say that one of the best podcast ideas, here's one for you listeners, would be a podcast where it's just about stories that have failed. Because there's so much wisdom in something not working. Imagine a podcast series where we're talking to people -- and I actually, it's not being a sadist or a narcissist, I actually like talking to people that, where stuff has gone wrong, with great respect, but to learn, to fast track my learning of what went wrong, how did it go wrong? What was the turning point? What didn't you see that was coming? And in hope that I get to protect myself and my mindset and I can learn from that and go, well, how do I make sure that I don't follow that? I don't know of any podcast that exist that just focuses on negative stories. And not because it's negative, it's just because there's so much wisdom, so much knowledge in a series like that. Amy (17:13) Absolutely. Well, now you've brought that to the topic, I'll go off piste of my notes then. Can you share with us some moments that stand out along your journey that were like -- it was perhaps considered a failure at the time that it happened? Phillip (17:14) Yeah, well, my weight was a failure, right? We're told that, you know, we can have it all. We can't have it all. You can't have a perfect, healthy body, a great relationship with your wife and kids and run a massive business that's accelerating, you know, year on year at over 60 to 80% year on year. You just can't do it, because you can't allocate the time that the family needs, the time that your body needs and the time that a business needs to have everything working in perfection. And so what I learnt from that, through failure, through putting on 80kg -- I'm 80kg lighter now than what I used to be -- I now take all school holidays off so I can spend time with the kids. What I learned through that is, you've got to prioritise what matters to you at the time that it's happening. And if you're starting a business, that's going to be a priority, but don't forget your family and yourself. If you're going through illness or sickness, don't forget your business and your family. Try and make all three work as harmonious as possible. Right? That was something I learned as a life lesson. You know, something that I learned in business, made mistakes, was so focused on front end growth, so focused on pushing the sales team across the country, that we forgot about the accounting system. We forgot about the systems and procedures in the backend. And all of a sudden in 2010, we blew up our accounting system, you know, and that was QuickBooks at the time. And, you know, accounting systems were way different 16 years ago to what they are now. The capability wasn't the same. And imagine blowing up your accounting system that runs all of your invoicing and your accounts receivables and accounts payable, you know, and then we had to go from QuickBooks to SAP. Now that's like going from a bloody, you know, Commodore to a Formula One car. It's just different, the amount of training, the amount of cost and the amount of everything. And the lesson I learned out of that is that when you grow, plan for your growth twelve months in advance. You know, so know where you are now and where you want to be in twelve months and put your systems and your processes and your skills capability and your workforce into the spot that you need to be in twelve months, not where you are today. Because otherwise you're working reactively, not proactively. And that was a key takeaway. So there's been lots of lessons learnt along the way, investing in the wrong people, investing in ideas instead of people. Made that error when I exited, got a bit excited, invested in a few businesses. Luckily, a couple of them have made more than made up for the others that were lost. But lesson learned was, don't invest in good ideas, invest in good people with good ideas. That was a real key takeaway. Lost hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in the wrong people, even though the idea was good. Amy (20:04) And then, you know, where you're mentioning there -- investment -- does feel, there's often this, glamorising investment. Especially people who are starting a business or in those early years, and founders can often be chasing getting investment as opposed to perhaps focusing on some of the foundations and customers. What do you think of that sort of glamorised world of investment these days? Phillip (20:27) Yeah, I think it's a great question because I deal with different businesses. It depends what business you're building. I'm a big believer where possible businesses should be bootstrapped. I don't believe in people going out to get financial investment and they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. They get too comfortable. I mean, I was never in the top three paid people in my organisation ever. Even at the Commune now, I'm still probably the third or fourth highest paid person in the organisation. Amy (20:52) Well, you don't need the money anymore. Phillip (20:55) Yeah, but it's the philosophy that I've always used. And I mean, I'm still running a commercial venture. I'm still running it and bootstrapping it, as in, putting the money back into it to return it and churn it. I'm a big believer where possible, but there are some businesses that you can't do that. There's some businesses, especially in tech space and that, that you do have to accelerate quickly and you do have to maximise the opportunity. And in that space, then yeah, you do need to go out to market and say, right, what investment do I need? But I talk about investment and I'm part of different things like Get Ahead is a fast growing recruitment tool that's like Tinder for employment. The actual owners of Tinder are shareholders in it as well. It's called Get Ahead. They're the people that walk around interviewing people, "What do you do and how much do you get paid?", and you know, they're growing massively. So when I worked with Sam and he approached me on investing, I said you need to make sure that all investors are functional investors. They need to bring something to the table besides money. So I'm a firm believer that if you're going out to market to raise capital, that the person bringing capital to the table has to bring more than just money to the table. You know, they have to bring convenience. They have to bring expertise. They have to bring a network of knowledge, hopefully all of those, but at least two of those besides money. It's something that I'm really key about when it comes to now looking at any opportunity that I invest in and looking at it. But again, you know, make sure I'm investing with a person with a great idea and make sure that they need more than just my money, they need other things that I have to offer. Amy (22:24) That's brilliant, I love that. And the thing -- I've got some quick fire questions for you as well -- but you talk about now where you are, 50, healthy, fit, financially free, but where does that really begin? You briefly talked about it at the start of this podcast to go think about actually more to your youth and some of the things you did. Phillip (22:44) Yeah, look, where does it begin? I think it begins in mindset, it begins in forward thinking. I've always been, I look back now and I can say this, I didn't know this at the time -- I've been quite a visual person. I'm a visual person. There's a joke that people say Phil doesn't read instructions. He'll open a box and throw the instructions away. I'm a visual learner. I've got an ability to visualise stuff. As I said, my parents were great, great role models. My brother's thirteen years older than me. My sister's eleven years older than me. I've got cousins that are in their seventies. So I've grown up around a very good family with good values. And I've been able to watch and learn from what they do, what they've done well and what they could have done better. And I think that's where it all started in the mindset of visualising the life I wanted and visualising the life I wanted to give my kids. But if you said, where does it start? It starts with the values that are instilled in you. Now, don't get me wrong. I had a very good upbringing. But if there's people that have had a very bad upbringing. And what they learn is, I'm going to make sure I've learned what not to do. So they say, somebody that's had a bad upbringing will either follow the same footsteps or be completely different. Right? Because they'll either look at it and go, this is all I know, copy it, or they'll look at it and go, this is not who I want to be, be different. So I think we do undervalue the concept of upbringing and who we are as people. But the point I really want to hone in there is, just because you had a bad upbringing is not an excuse to be an a**hole now. You have that choice to look at that and go, I'm not gonna be that person. When I looked at the person I worked for as a boss, I was like, I'm not going to be that person. When I go and open my own business, I'm gonna be the best possible leader that I can. I'm gonna be inclusive, I'm gonna reward great behaviour. I'm gonna reprimand bad behaviour in terms of, I'm going to point it out. But 90% of the time, I'm gonna tell them how great they are when they're being great, pull them into line 10% that I need, but I'm gonna hold myself to a higher standard than anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I'm harder on me than I am on anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I lead by example. I'm gonna make sure that I communicate what my vision is. I communicate what the parameters are, right? And I'm supportive and I'm standing right beside my team to help them and elevate them. That when we hit success, it's a we, not an I. We are successful, not I am successful, right, that I'm gonna talk about my team. And there's thousands and thousands of interviews over the years where, you know, I'm constantly talking about the team because they are the crux of what Di Bella was and now what the Commune is becoming. It's all about the quality of the team that you build. But again, you've got to reward them, you know, and reward to them is different to different people. You know, some it's monetary reward, some it's time, some it's, you know, gratitude. There's, as they say, there's five different languages of love. Not everybody's the same. But I suppose the key is where people think, he's just waffling. No, it's meaningful conversations. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with yourself? When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with those around you, whether it's your friends, your relatives, your kids, or your people and your workers? I think a lot of people have forgotten the art of meaningful conversation. Amy (25:56) Yeah. Everyone's just sort of rushing around and whether it's in your personal life, in the family home, rushing out the door or colleagues don't have time to give each other feedback or to collaborate on something. We're always in this narrative of, don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time. Phillip (26:11) Everyone's rushing Amy, but no one's got anywhere to get to. That's what I laugh about is, everyone's rushing, but no one knows where they're going. You know, and I say to people, you're in a rush, what for? I'm not sure. Well, you know, and that's why it's so important to seek your outcomes, your destination, what's achievement look like, what does success look like, make it measurable, because rushing, rushing for what? If you don't know what you're rushing for, then what's the purpose, right? Amy (26:35) Yeah, such a good reminder, because I slip into the, always rushing or just always thinking I have more time than I do to get places if anything. Phillip (26:43) People are, you know, one of my pet hates is, "I'm busy". Really? So tell me the most meaningful thing you did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell you that question stumps people. Yeah. You've been so busy. Tell me the most meaningful thing that you've done in the last 24 hours. What has stood out for you in the last 24 hours that's made an impact on you or somebody around you? Because if you can't remember, you weren't that busy. You're busy doing what? Amy (27:02) Busy for busyness. Before I ask you some of our Really Good Conversation cards, I've got some just quick fire questions to tap a little bit further into your brain, if you will. Obviously you have achieved a hell of a lot of your journey so far, but what if anything still makes you nervous or keeps you up at night? Phillip (27:21) People's expectations and what's happening at the moment. People want more for less, whether that's a customer. They want -- Australia at the moment is whinging about the $6.50 cup of coffee, yet you go to Europe or you go to America and it starts at $8 and their wages are half the price of Australia. So there's food for thought. That's quantifying it with an example. So people's expectations. Workers are no different. I talked about it this morning with my executive manager. I said, since when does everyone start work at nine o'clock? I walked in and people are hoohaaing around and having coffee and then telling me how busy they are. Can't be that busy if you're sitting around drinking coffee, and I got no problems, drink coffee till the cows come home, I mean, that's fine, but don't tell me that, you know, you're busy. You're waltzing around at nine and you're out the door at four o'clock. That's not busy. So that comes down again to an example of people wanting more for less. It doesn't matter whether it's people in the workforce or whether it's customers. So that is a bit of a worrying thing at the moment. Yeah. Amy (28:18) And you have often been in the media on stage on podcasts, etcetera. Do you enjoy being recognized, or do you find it a bit tiring at times? Phillip (28:27) Recognised for the right reasons. I'm quietly, and this will shock listeners, but I'm introverted in new company. So, and people go, explain that. Well, of course, when I'm on a stage or when I'm being interviewed, that's part of your role. I mean, no one wants to listen to somebody who's introverted, shy, and you know, so you bring, it's part of your job, you step up, you go -- but when I say introverted to explain it, if you're having a party and there's a hundred people there or twenty people there or a thousand people there and I don't know most of them, I'm the one that'll walk in quietly and go and you know hug the walls and make my way to the back of the room. Many times been called arrogant because people think he's just being arrogant, well no, because the moment somebody comes to say hello or somebody smiles at you I'll smile back or I'll say hello. So I'm quite introverted but the recognition for me the best recognition is when somebody, and I had this the other day, where somebody will come up to you and go, I came to one of your speeches ten years ago and you told me I was going through some terrible stuff and your advice was, get comfortable with your worst case scenario, use that as your risk management plan and it changed my life. That's the best type of recognition for me. When somebody's actually going, hey, I listened to something you said or I adopted something that you put forward and it changed the way I did something or it helped me in that situation. That to me is impact. So any recognition in the fact that you've had an impact positively on somebody, I'm all for. Recognition for any other reason can be flattering sometimes, but take it or leave it. Amy (29:54) Yeah, love it. What kind of example do you hope your kids take from your journey? Phillip (30:00) That anything you want in life, you strive to attempt and try it yourself. That you don't drag others down to elevate yourself. That if there's somewhere you wanna be or something you wanna do or something you wanna achieve, that you put yourself in the forefront position to make that happen and surround yourself with the right people. Don't ever be the person who drags somebody else down to elevate yourself. Amy (30:20) Love that. And how do you take your coffee? Phillip (30:24) Depends what mood I'm in. If being super healthy, it'll be a half shot long black or a double espresso bit longer. My favorite is an extra hot piccolo. So you can imagine people's dismay when I walk into a cafe and they recognize I'm asking for extra hot piccolo because the traditional barista's like, what do mean extra hot? Can you just make me the coffee the way I like it? Coffee's personal. If somebody wants it extra hot, make it extra hot. You know, if they're paying for it, they're the customer. You don't need to give them a lesson on how coffee should be drunk. Amy (30:50) Have you? Gosh, I mean, if a barista did know who you were, you would be a pretty terrifying customer. Phillip (30:56) Oh, not at all. Amy (30:57) Because it'd be like, my God, I can't get this wrong. Have you ever sent a coffee back? Phillip (31:00) No, I haven't sent a coffee back. It's constructive criticism. I've always given constructive criticism if they ask, but I have not sent a coffee back. There's been a few times I haven't drunk the coffee. Amy (31:13) Well that speaks volumes though. I don't know what's worse! Phillip (31:16) Well, that to me is the job of the waiter to actually say, the wait staff to say, hey, is there a problem? The dialogue to say, well, you know, not so much a problem, but it wasn't made properly or, whatever. I mean, we can deliver any message we want, but in a very respectful manner is something I was always brought up to be respectful. Amy (31:33) Love that. And do you ever just secretly go for instant coffee and not tell anyone? Phillip (31:37) Big fan of instant. If it's the right instant coffee, it has a place. We've got a great instant product at the Coffee Commune on my privatecollection.coffee website. We've sourced an amazing high altitude Arabica instant that tastes like filter coffee. Here's a secret for you listeners. It's the fastest growing category now and it will be for the next three years because of the cost. It's a lot more cost effective. People are struggling with disposable income around the world. It's a global issue. The amount of money they have to spend after all of their obligations and, and needs like insurance and gas and home loans. So instant is rising fast because people will always drink coffee. They'll just change the way they drink it and what they drink. But there is some really good instant on the market. Amy (32:18) That's good to know actually. Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life? Phillip (32:26) Yes, I was offered a job to go into government when I was finishing my commerce degree and a lot of my family worked in government. So my brother-in-law and I were sitting in a cafe and he's a lot older than me. And I said to him, you know, I've been offered a job to go into government, you know, I've a commerce degree. And he said, you're, I've known you since you were eight years old. He goes, you're not built for working in government. He's been in, he was in government for forty four years. He said, you're not built for government, you've got too much entrepreneurial spirit, you've got too much personality. Yeah, he said, that is the route for you, take it from somebody who's been in government. So my brother-in-law shaped that conversation. I've probably never told him that, but there we go, we're sharing it for the first time. Amy (33:07) That's amazing because in reality to have a job offer coming out of school, education, whatever it may be, would be, we'll take it, it's security, it's comfortable. Phillip (33:23) That's what was being drummed into me by my dad. My dad was saying, you know, go to -- I was the first one to go to university in the family. Go to university, get your degree and go get a good job in government. It was actually being pushed that way. It was my brother-in-law that said, I'm in government. It'll stifle you. It just won't be you. That's some great advice so I wouldn't be where I am. Amy (33:46) Amazing, I absolutely love that. Right, I've got three questions. So those questions weren't even from our packs of cards, they were just other ones that I had prepared, but three questions. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Phillip (33:59) Mmm, the ability to see things that others couldn't. To be able to see, you know, I was having an interesting conversation with somebody yesterday about a global conference they went to and they had an AI speaker. And in short, I'll give you the short version. He said at the time there was horses and carts, the people with horses and carts never thought there'd be cars. At the time that there's cars, no one thinks that there's going to be no cars allowed, that they'll all be driverless because humans cannot operate as good as a computer. But people are now shaking their heads going, no, there will never be driverless cars. But the people that were in horses and carriages never thought that there would be cars. So imagine if you had that vision back then to be able to see what other people couldn't see. Amy (34:47) Yeah. And then maybe course correct potentially as well and go, actually, maybe is that a good route for us to be going down as for human society? And look at all the damage and waste we've done over there. Phillip (35:02) Agreed, agreed, you hold a lot of power, Yeah. Hopefully you would use that power for good. Amy (35:06) Yeah. Question number two. Do you have any regrets? And if so, what are they? Phillip (35:11) I don't have any regrets as such. What I could have done much better was look after myself during the journey, health-wise, and be a bit more present for my kids as they grew up. Not a regret because obviously since 2017, I've been able to have all school holidays off and they're now eighteen and sixteen. So that's, you know, nine years ago. So from the age of nine and seven, they got their dad back. But if I had said, how would you do it differently? Look after myself better so that I could be more present for my kids when they were, you know, zero to eight, zero to seven. Amy (35:45) Amazing. And question number three, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Phillip (35:52) It's actually Gandhi's wisdom. Be part of the change you want to see in the world. There's a lot of people that want to talk about what they want to see in the world, but they're not prepared to be part of it. And that's Gandhi's words that I talk about quite a lot. A lot of people sit on the fence and want to bark orders and they want change and they want better government, but they're not prepared to do the work. They're not prepared to research what government stands for and they just vote like sheep or they vote based on a message or popularity competition. They don't actually go and listen to the policies or processes or what people stand for, but they're the first ones to whinge about having bad government at whatever level in whatever state and whatever council in whatever country. But be part of the change that you want to see in the world. Amy (36:28) Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. And the last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Phillip (36:39) Look, can I have two? Amy (36:41) Go on yep. Phillip (36:43) So Nelson Mandela, and I'd have to ask Nelson Mandela, how did you forgive when anger would have been much easier? Because we all get caught up in those emotional states where our first go-to is anger. How did you actually forgive when the go-to could have been anger to fuel your existence? And the other one would be Jesus Christ, and that would be, did humanity actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Because you don't have to be biblical, you can be of any faith. So replace Jesus Christ with whatever faith you follow. But did that leader of that faith, did humans actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Amy (37:29) Yes. Wow. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for everything you have shared today. We honestly could talk for hours and hours about various different parts of your world, your journey and the lessons that you've learned along the way. So really appreciate everything that you have shared. And we've only even touched briefly on the Coffee Commune. So give a shout out to our listeners for where people can find out more about your world or any things you're doing this year. Phillip (37:54) Yeah, so the Coffee Commune, coffeecommune.com.au, we're Australian first concept. It's all about accelerating people's potential in the hospitality industry. It's a place where everyone comes to collaborate. It was a place where people said we could never build. We're a facility, so we're a $20m facility where you can manufacture any sort of volume of coffee. And then we're a community that now has over 1,850 members, the largest private community, non-government funded in Australia in hospitality where we're having a lot of impact with advocacy and workshops and education, but everything filters down to helping people accelerate their potential. For those of you that love coffee, I've released a private coffee collection. So privatecollection.coffee is where you can get fresh roasted coffee delivered to your home or office at factory prices. That's my personal thirty odd years of coffee expertise, all in a bag or in many bags, so to speak. So, if you love coffee, big shout out and have a look at that range for your home or office. Amy (38:51) Fantastic. Thank you. It sounds like you've got no signs of slowing down right now. So thank you for everything you shared and look forward to chatting again. Phillip (38:59) Thanks for having me. Amy (39:03) Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.
March 9, 2026Episode 6739 min
Why Things Feel F*cked Right Now & What We Can Do About It
Summary What happens when you realise the life you've built no longer fits? In this episode, Andrew Sloan shares the story behind his book Why Things Feel F*cked and the personal reinvention that followed. From ending a long-term relationship to taking his work on the road, Andrew explores why so many of us feel stretched, stuck or overwhelmed and why better conversations might be the way through. We talk about nervous systems, leadership, perfectionism and the quiet power of human connection. Guest Andrew Sloan is an integrated psychotherapist and leadership coach who works with individuals from all walks of life, as well as CEOs and executive teams navigating performance and culture challenges. His work sits at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance, with a focus on self-leadership, nervous system awareness and meaningful conversations. He is the author of Why Things Feel F*cked and speaks nationally on leadership, resilience and connection. Overview After publishing his book, Andrew made a series of significant life changes, choosing freedom and possibility over stability. That shift becomes the gateway into a wider discussion: why do so many of us feel under pressure, even when life looks "fine" on paper? Andrew unpacks the modern productivity trap and the way digital life keeps our nervous systems in a constant state of activation. He explains why chaos isn't new, but our relationship with it has changed; and how the smallest shifts, from elongating the exhale to reconnecting with nature, can begin to restore calm. Andrew shares why most performance issues at work are really conversation issues. High performance and wellbeing are not opposing forces, but deeply connected. This is a thought provoking, grounding episode about curiosity, courage and the human need for meaningful connection. Key takeaways Modern life keeps our nervous systems activated through constant digital input Many workplace performance problems are actually conversation problems Calm hasn't disappeared. It's simply covered over by protective patterns The practical shifts that can help us reset For more information: Andrew Sloan www.andrewsloan.com.au Warning: This episode contains strong language. With quite a few F-bombs. Transcript Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Andrew Sloan, an integrated psychotherapist, leadership coach, and author of "Why Things Feel F*cked". Andrew works with individuals from all walks of life through his private practice, as well as CEOs and executive teams at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Whether it's in his one-to-one sessions or inside leadership rooms, his focus is on what's really going on beneath the surface and when things aren't working. At the heart of his work is one simple but powerful idea. Better human relationships start with better conversations. In today's episode, we're going to explore reinvention, why so many of us feel stuck right now, and what actually helps when life feels a little off. Welcome to the podcast, Andrew. Andrew (01:25) Thank you for having me, very, very much. Amy (01:28) Even just reading in your intro totally just aligns with the world that we are in with really good conversations when you highlight that better human relationships start with better conversations. And I felt it was great to get you as a guest on the podcast. You have launched a book in the last year and we are going to get on to that. But the last year has been quite a big year for you. And there's been changes and adventures. So can you give us a little bit of an insight to your own life of what has shifted and what made you realise something needed to change? Andrew (02:02) Well, I think the last 10 years has been a pretty massive adventure, all sort of crescendoing in the last 12 months where I started to write a book. 2024, I started in June and then as I was writing the book, I realised that there were some really hard conversations I needed to have with the people that I loved. And so as I published the book in November last year, I ended a 13 year relationship and you know, that was because I think it wasn't set up for common connection in the world as I wanted it. And for him, after 13 years, it didn't feel free enough. And so we came to the decision to separate after so long. All whilst I am publishing a book into the world. I wrote about the breakup in the book as well in chapter nine at the beginning. I start to talk about, you know, the critical and really meaningful conversations we needed to have, to make a change possible. And then I just couldn't see my life being anchored to a mortgage or even a lease again. All of those options in front of me were a no towards that sort of being tied down to something. And it just felt energetically in my body, like a big fat no. And I had to have a really considerate conversation with myself about what that meant to kind of shirk that security. And I bought a motor home and I am traveling around Australia for at least 12 months. The way it's going right now, Amy, it's like, it's really cool. I'm like, is there an end date? I don't know. But one of the big adventures that I'm on right now is to take the "why things feel f*cked" idea and continue to have that conversation in different communities. And I've already been starting to do that, but also learn what's beyond what feels f*cked. I definitely talk about that in the book, but I think I'm on a journey towards learning at a higher fidelity. What does real great living look like beyond us recognising and knowing this isn't it? What is on the other side of that? Is it more a connection to nature, more diverse people? Is it being a bit more nomadic? And that is what I'm currently discovering. And it's f*cking cool. Amy (04:37) That is amazing. And even just going back to your own personal experience of writing the book, the majority of people, yeah, the vast majority of people don't perhaps get an opportunity to do that full self discovery. So it's almost, as you said, through that process of writing the book and the context and the content you were writing about, actually showed a mirror into your own world. And then as you said, you're now getting out there beyond what was your usual world where you were obviously living at the time and then meeting completely different new people, new communities, new locations and you're just living out your own experiment in some way. Andrew (05:17) Yeah, it's different vantage points, right? Of the same thing called this human experience. And I will never forget the day I had the printed out manuscript and I was working through it to work on an edit. And I was like, I don't have this in my relationship right now. I can't have that meaningful conversation right now in this relationship. And it was as I was flicking through it, I was like, f*ck. I need to make some significant changes here. And, yeah, it's, it's been a wild, wild ride and it continues to be one. And it's a beautifully profound moment when I can kind of lay down those things that keep us safe, like the mortgage and the house and literally pick up a mobile home, a beautiful one at that and drive around and go, I can actually live a bit more simply than I was. I can live way more connected to myself and nature than I ever have been. And, look, there's also some really great conversations to have on the road as well. Amy (06:23) Because we're sold the more, more, more, you know, the work for more, the get the bigger, whether it's the bigger job or the bigger thing to always be reaching the apartment, then the house, then the bigger house. It's always that more, more, Andrew (06:34) And the job, right? That supports it all because without that job, we can't pay the mortgage at the level we are. And we can't meet the cost of living pressures that we find ourselves in. And so, yeah, we are stuck in a little bit of a trap. And I talk about this in the book as the productivity trap and it is the more, more, more mindset. And it's a myriad of different things that kind of put us into that mode. I'm not sitting here saying, well, they all should be destroyed and broken down. No, I'm not suggesting that. I don't think everyone should go on a motor home because I probably wouldn't have a campsite left if you all joined me. But we do need to orientate ourselves in that so we can make better choices. And the first step is to acclimate ourselves to that and go, oh, I am in that more, more, more. And it is kind of fueling something in my life that is hindering presence, calm, wellbeing, better connection with the people around us. So yeah, it's important we're having this conversation about the more, more. And I think people are starting to realise, yeah, this isn't working and I feel like I'm trapped by it. Amy (07:47) Just on the treadmill. What for you was the point that you thought, I want to write a book, I need to write a book and actually it's going to really highlight, you know, obviously a title that gets attention for sure, "Why Things Feel F*cked". Where did that drive for you come from in the first place? Andrew (08:03) It's so multi-layered. And I think if we begin where we were just in our conversation, it was with clients coming to me and saying, I'm really stuck and I have no f*cking idea why I'm in the dark to why I feel like I am so stuck. And this experience of the sort of curtain is closed to why we feel so f*cked and why we then feel so stuck in that. We're following all the rules and we don't know why joy and happiness and peace is impossible in our lives. That was the beginning of, wow, how do I compile something that will tangibly and practically help not be like a self-help book that just gives you the surface treatment or gives you a couple of the moves, but without the robustness that I think we need in a world that is kind of keeping us in place. But the other answer to that question is my lifespan, right? So the, the, the, things feel f*cked for me from 13, 21, 35 to 41. Now that I sit here and talk to you, there's been layers of why things have felt f*cked and these mimic and echo what I hear from clients. Right. And I hear from clients in my private practice where I'm meeting one to one with people, but also when I sit in executive teams and go, wow, we're all a bunch of babies sitting at this table reacting to the world from how we were brought up, but we're bringing it to the boardroom and creating really ineffective, harmful conversations with each other. And so I see it on both ends of the spectrum. I'm like, this is all the same shit. It's all the same thing. It's a nervous system inside of your and my body that has been shaped by the world, to the point where it's playing out in pretty destructive ways, fear-based ways. We start to try to attempt to take power over each other. And so when I saw those patterns, I'm not the sort of person that can look away from those patterns and do nothing. I see those patterns and I'm like, wow, this story needs to be threaded together and it needs to be told. And so that's why this book is set up in this way. It talks about, how do we get into this mess? What's the impact on our bodies? And the last two parts of the book are the pathway out personally, what choices, moves, frameworks and strategies might we need to use personally? And then how are we going to bring them to others? You know, how are we going to accept other people's support, but also how do we cultivate belonging and connection everywhere we go? And that was the primary driver to lay out this book in the way that I did, but also the driver to actually tell my personal story for the first time, because I've kept my personal story way out of my conversations with people because I wanted their story to be central. And that's an ethical responsibility, but also it keeps the pressure on the right thing. You, the client, not me, but I really needed to leverage my story. felt to propel this story along and keep people engaged and to speak to the right people. So, it was uncomfortable, but I did it anyway. Amy (11:27) And what a process, a journey, you know, and a growth experience and what you're now doing off the back of it. I mean, I bet when you embarked on this book, yes, you may have thought, oh, well, I'll do a bit of a book tour around Australia. But when you set out on it, you probably weren't thinking, oh, I will actually, separating from partner, getting a motor home and driving around Australia for over a year. I love it. It's just, you know, where these opportunities and things come from. And you do talk about, know, it's not necessarily a new feeling in that, humans have always lived through chaos, you know, and there's various examples of chaos over the, over the different generations and wars and everything like that. But what feels different about how we're experiencing it now in this current time? Andrew (12:15) Chaos is the substrate of the human experience. Some models call it disorder is the known fabric of the universe and the human experience of it. And so yeah, we've always had chaos and strategies to quell that chaos, right? And throughout history, I think that's impinged upon us, that has hammered us. And yeah, we are certainly not in the worst version of that. We're just in a new version of that. And I think the chaos right now for people, and this might be a really great stat for you being from the UK in the UK right now, nine out of 10 people are reporting high levels of pressure and stress right now. And we can see that from the cost of living crisis, the political landscape, the threat of AI, a whole bunch of different things, but I kind of distill it down to chaos being wrapped in a digital bubble wrap. You know, it's like we've digitified chaos in so many ways. And we pick up these phones, mine's plugged into the moment because I've been using it so much this morning, but we pick up these phones and they're our interface into the world. And they're also hijacking parts of our brains and our bodies to activated versions of themselves. So you add in smartphones to that mix and we've got a real big challenge where chaos is wrapped in that digital layer. I don't think we started to talk about it in some of the studies around increasing experiences of anxiety and depression in young people when they're engaging with social media as an example. But I don't think we're talking about it enough, like the toxicity that actually happens through the lens of our phones and them actually keeping us from really good conversations, keeping us from the present moment inside of ourselves. And I am still in that loop as well. I get stuck doom scrolling, get stuck in thinking I need to be accessible by my phone than in the present moment with myself or another person all the time. And I'm thinking about strategies on how to quell that and to reduce that. One of the things I've just started and it's really easy in a motor home because the bed and the charger can be really separate.But I'm no longer plugging my phone in where I can access it in bed. Yeah. So that I can create a buffer of the beginning and the end of my day, which can be lo-fi and digital free. It's, it's not digital free because I have my, my tracker on, but it is feed free at the very least to really create a different experience in the beginning and the end of the day. And I wonder about its effect on my calm, but also my quality of sleep, right? Which we know is a huge part of feeling that stress, that anxiousness, that ramped up-ness in that digital chaos bubble. What does it do when we can kind of down that? I think it's important. Amy (15:24) Absolutely. And this, you know, totally resonates. And I know I'm guilty of especially, you know, having family in a different time zone. I'm going to bed quickly doing messages because, you know, it's their daytime. So therefore I'm ending that day on the phone, waking up and reaching for the phone to then if I do want to catch people or things or obviously, yes, you know, our businesses in the UK as well, then therefore you're just always, yeah, always on. And I think there's a lot of talk, even just phones being the example, you know, there's a lot of focus and conversation of children and their use of it. And, you know, some of the initiatives that have been talked about there, but it's for me, it's like, it's us adults actually as well. So in a professional sense, it's that full yet the world of LinkedIn in business, if you're not promoting it on somewhere, is it even happening? And then you're in this constant just engagement and feed. So absolutely I feel like that. You did touch on nervous system and such, and for someone who's listening and does feel perhaps they're like constantly just on edge or feeling that high almost like angst, stress level. What is something like a practical shift or tip you think is a genuine good place to start? Andrew (16:37) Well, I'm going to start with a connective tissue between what we were just talking about in this question. Then I'm going to go to three things we could do today, Micro things. But the biggest misunderstood thing about calm is that the majority of it is what we're doing right now. Eyeball to eyeball, face to face, voice box to voice box connection is the biggest move we can make towards a calmer, more deactivated nervous system. And when we pick up our phone, we actually split that connective tissue. So we're at the dinner table. We're with our friends. And when we, all that typical person picks up the phone and it breaks connection, actually is severing our ability to feel calm and curious and connected with each other. And this is biochemical through the vagus nerve, through the auditory nerve, and to our facial expressions and beyond into our voice boxes. And this is the stuff we had in small hunter gathering groups in plentiful supply. It's when really good conversations were never interrupted by our digital lives. So that's one thing. When I think about how we support people to more deactivation, away from angst, away from rage, away from anxiousness and into presence, it is mostly supported by human interaction, face-to-face connection. And then of course, when we don't have access to another human that feels safe, because a lot of human connection is judgmental or critical or narrows us or activates us. And so unfortunately, the world is in plentiful supply of those people. And so when we can't get that safe human, like the energy we are bringing each other, of openness and warmth and curiosity and reciprocity. We call it in the science, it's like this even flow between two people. When we can't get that, yes, there's some body moves we might want to make. The first one is to think about breath. Elongating our exhale is foundational to a deactivated nervous system. It is a beautiful way to become purposeful and present. And it massages all the bits and pieces of our nervous system that help us deactivate, even when things are still chaotic and messy in our lives. It's not as simple as just saying, the therapist is telling you to breathe, but it is like, is kind of that simple. And so elongating that exhale is the goal and we don't need any messy or complex breath work. We might want to go down that path. I'm just saying it's easy enough just to elongate that exhale. The second thing is at times we might be really activated and this kind of has two forms and one of the things that I've picked up myself recently, because I'm privileged enough to be able to access a sauna and a cold plunge, we can simulate that ourselves. If we're really activated, go and splash cold water on your face, activate the nerve, the vagus nerve, and find a rebalance in your nervous system state. So when people are really overwhelmed, that's a really great hack to kind of step into. And that cold water down-regulates our nervous system towards calm. The medium of that is if we're fortunate enough to live in spaces that have saunas and cold plunges, they actually mimic the fight and flight response and allow us to come back to a more regulated zone. And so this stretching of our nervous systems are really supportive at finding more calm in our everyday life, that chaos. The third is, go find nature.When we gaze at bodies of water and there's this science around fractals, fractals are found in leaves, waves, anything natural really is a natural fractal. The opposite is the straight lines of this room that I'm sitting in, the manufactured spaces that we are often in, or even that, I don't know, that pattern behind you, that beautiful soundproofing. Well, they're certainly not down regulating our nervous systems, but what we do know is, we know that built environments are not, but we know natural environments do. They down-regulate our nervous system. So there's, Dr. Jenny Brogdon in WA is talking about a prescription of nature every single day. And she's a GP. She goes, "I want to prescribe you" in her book -- I think it's "Nature's Great Advantage" -- but, "I want to prescribe you a prescription of access to nature every single day". And that in the van, the living 360 degrees of my life in nature, the level of calm I have felt, I'm like, she's not joking. She's not joking. It's real. It's real. And it's profound. And we need to be thinking about it more and more as we move through the chaos. Amy (21:50) Absolutely. And we touched on this just before as we started. If you are traveling in and out of cities or perhaps offices, you know, you're just commuting in, in, out. There's all of the different things you're just seeing on a daily basis or traffic or lights or sounds, all the stimulus that you just go through without really a second thought. But then as you say, you maybe go sit in an office all day and then come home and do it again. There's not that getting into the nature part. Andrew (22:17) And on Sunday, I went to nature with two mates and we had a meaningful conversation together about identity and life and navigating the world as it is. And it was a beautiful thing because I could mix both, you know, nature with great conversations coming together. And this might be a good idea for another pack. What if that was a whole pack of yours and it could include nature, right? In the dialogue. Amy (22:45) Where you're making me think, could I do this podcast on the move in nature? Because what I have actually been doing is more recently also having like, walking meetings with people. So especially if they're relatively local, could get to the rather than just saying, well, let's meet at this cafe for a coffee and have a seated meeting is like actually let's meet so and so which then we're getting, you know, it's flowing conversation, but it's both getting a bit of exercise at the same time. But yeah, you do, you find the conversation flows in different directions. Andrew (23:16) It's a different quality of conversation, isn't it? Profoundly different. It's because we're having a conversation in the setting closer related to where our neurobiology and chemistry grew up and it evolved. It evolved in natural spaces. This isn't like a new idea. This isn't like woo woo thinking. This is -- no, our neurons and our nervous system grew up in natural spaces.Let's re-dose ourselves with those natural spaces because we know we need it. Yeah. Amy (23:46) Absolutely. And we'll touch on before we go, you know, to some of the question cards from our packs, but you do do a lot of work in the corporate and leadership space. And when do you realize what looks like a performance issue is actually a conversation issue? Andrew (24:02) Well, 26% of us, only 26% of us are in workplaces that are fit for human consumption. Where the psychosocial hazards or the toxicity of really bad conversations aren't hammering us. That relegates at least 74 % of us are in workplaces which are toxic to human connections. 70% of us getting into the wellbeing space of work where high performance and wellbeing merges together, 70% is the meaningful conversations we have with our direct manager. And so every workplace challenge and issue, at least 70% of it is about better conversations with our leaders, better human relationships with our leaders. And 30% is the pay, the facilities, systems, the processes, all the other stuff. And that is what I take to senior leaders and their teams is like, yeah, you could, you can out-bot the bots. You can try to get ahead through AI and digitification, but your market leadership, your leadership of a highly profitable and high-performing team is actually the dimensionality of your human to human relationships inside of this business. And what are you doing around that? Yes, tend to AI, get ahead of the curve. Absolutely. Don't ignore it. Because that would be quite foolish. But at least 70% of your time and your energy should be about great conversations with your people. And so the science is really clear. The number one driver of well-being in high performance is care. And Graham Cowan is writing a book, publishing it this year, another great guest for you, called "The Manager That Cares". And we know that care is the central driver, but the care is all about meaningful conversations at work. And Gallup, who is the large polling organization in the States, says half an hour often. And often in different settings means different things for different setups. It could be monthly, fortnightly or weekly. And it's half an hour conversations that are deeply meaningful that orientate people to what excellence looks like, frees them up to do their best work by the systems and the information, the processes, deeply cares about the person, but also helps them learn, and stretch. And this is what most workplace performance issues are because of and solved by. Amy (26:43) It's wild listening to you talk about this specific point because what you're making me think is we are having as humans to almost re-educate ourselves on just the basics of human interaction because we've had so much technology. Learn the technology, learn the tools. Andrew (27:00) It's not even the technological change of the last 15 years. It's how we were brought up by those humans who were well-meaning and caring and very loving. I'm not saying they weren't, but they did not teach us how to have great conversations, don't know about you, but they also didn't teach us how to regulate our emotions and our nervous systems so that we could get out of our own way and have a present conversation with someone. So this is layers of history that have gone in the way of the basics of the human experience. They are basics around breath, connect meaningfully and go and touch grass and see sea today. You know, like they are basic, but we have overcomplicated it so much that we have to kind of delay the complexity to get back to that simple human rhythm. Amy (27:52) And what question do you wish more people ask themselves when life does start to feel off? Andrew (27:58) Wow. That's such a beautiful question. And like inside of me, I've got like 50 questions wanting to step forward. Maybe what would be a more curious response to this? Because sometimes I think what all of that we've just described, it invites us and has invited us towards certainty, having to know the answer, having to be in a black and white position, a yes or no position. So I wonder in those circumstances, could the question be to ask, could I get more curious? Could I be more open? Could I be more flexible? Could I be more vulnerable and not knowing? And then what would happen? Then what would take shape next? Amy (28:44) I'll be asking you our three questions from our conversation packs in a moment, but the question I'll ask you before we do do them is, has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed your direction in life? Andrew (28:58) Again, I could talk to you about 90. I have the fortune, the good fortune of being able to speak with about probably 30 to 35 people every fortnight to month. Each one of those very generous humans that trust me to have really great conversations with them changes me every single day week. It's such an honor to be a psychotherapist and coach, leadership coach, that they are all very profound. But what's one conversation that I could tell you about that changed things profoundly? I'll never forget sitting with a therapist who for the very first time challenged my dominant logic about what was normal and if normal was really real. And we were talking about this before we connected and started to hit record that I think we're convinced that there is a normal out there we should subscribe to. And she was the first person to put me in a position to really second guess that. And she kind of helped me fracture it. That there is no such thing as a normal, a homogenous way of living, a dominant logic on what's right and what's wrong. And it was the most powerful conversation. And I remember where I was sitting. remember the light coming through this window on the left. I remember the floorboards. I remember her face. And I remember that fracture and going, well, what is normal? Which actually changed the course of the trajectory of the next 20 years of my life to really never put my normal onto someone else. Really bad conversations happen in teams, workplaces and marriages.When we expect our normal to be someone else's normal or another way of saying that is my version of this, the thinking, the feeling and the doing is the same as your version of the thinking and the feeling of the doing. And the conflict that that creates actually divides us and separates us. And so that conversation, that profound conversation that questioned normal and what normality was. I think if we were writing the memoir, which we're not, that would be the pivotal point of like, Whoa. And then cracked open there and set me on the course that I clearly am on now, you know, after 20 years from that conversation, I'm here. Amy (31:29) Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that fantastic answer. Right, so whistle stop three questions from our packs of cards. Question number one. If you came with a warning label, what would it say? Andrew (31:46) At times brash, confident and clear, but please understand, very soft and very vulnerable on the inside. Amy (31:57) Oh, lovely. And more people could do with taking that kind of thinking to when they're working with their colleagues and things, you know. Andrew (32:04) The most direct of us, the most demanding of us, the most dictatorial of us are at times the most vulnerable and soft. And I think you're right. When we go and navigate the world and we've got that brashness from others, it often is a lot of insecurity underneath that. That's when it's in its extreme form. Yeah. I'm offering it to you, you know, hopefully more integrated, more present, more aware, of course, by the value of my work, but also how I've moved through the world. But yeah, sometimes that brashness in others is a lot of insecurity and fear. Amy (32:43) Yes, I can imagine, definitely. Question number two. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Andrew (32:51) Well, I've written a book that I hope to gift to everyone. It's probably got too much in it, right? It's a maximalist... I've gone for depth of framework and change than simplicity. But one of the things in the book I talk about is the manhandling of our nervous systems in how they've been shaped by our past relationships and the world as it is. but the many layers of systems that have brought us up in the world and continue to shape our lives. The one thing I want them to know is that that calm, connected, curious nervous system is never evaporated in us. It is never extinguished in us. It is forever present, but it can get covered up by parts of our personality that are keeping us safe. And so the one thing I want to hand down to younger generations is just because it feels like it's extinguished, that calm, that peace, it's not. And it is just being occluded or covered up by impulses in us that are trying to keep us safe in a chaotic world. Trust that it's there and find your way back through small changes often back to that. And it might be you, Amy, standing on the shoreline this afternoon with your feet in the sand just before you jump in the water. And hopefully there's a sharknet there. And it might be those micro moments that happen more times than they don't to get back to that part of our nervous systems that have always been there and will always be there and we can revisit them in these small ways. That is what I would love to pass down. Amy (34:23) That is a beautiful reminder and yes, definitely a reminder for me as well. Question number three, the last one. What is one of your pet hates? Andrew (34:31) Oversimplifying how we need to move forward when we think things feel f*cked. There's some theories, well-meaning theories out there right now around how we can live a better life. And they oversimplify a pretty complex experience that feels actually really messy. Though you and I have simplified a few key moves to make. Finding presence enough in our days to have a face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball conversation is sometimes really hard for people. For some of my clients, finding that extra exhale is as challenging as climbing Everest because of their past experiences. So one of my pet hates is when we oversimplify our complex and very hard experience and we just make it simple and we put pressure on people that it should be easy to make it happen. Another example of that is with leaders telling them one meaningful conversation often that for some leaders is really hard with the demands and the pressures of their workplace cultures. So oversimplifying things when they are messy and hard and stuck and not giving people just enough complexity so they can orientate themselves and then valuably know how to move forward, you know, with the steps, the moves, the different experiments that they might want to make because there isn't a one size fits all unfortunately. Amy (35:59) You literally just read the words out of my head. I was thinking exactly that. You read these lists or these tips and you're just like, yes, sometimes it feels like a bigger to do list to add to your day that you're trying to already do. They're all fantastic answers. So thank you for everything you've shared there and throughout this conversation. The last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Andrew (36:25) When I first was training to be a psychotherapist and you will, if you ever speak to an emerging therapist, we always talk about Carl Rogers. And if you or your listeners would ever love to hear and see an example of a great conversation, go and Google Carl Rogers in session. He's got actual sessions that he did. And I'm talking about like, I think this is like the 50s, 60s. It was like, a long time ago. I would sit down with Carl, who's one of my conversational heroes and the little guy in me would want to know, am I doing well? Am I doing okay, Carl? Am I making you proud of how to have great conversations? Because he was and is for many emerging therapists, the blueprint, the epitome that Mount Everest of great conversations and with such warmth and such care and I would just love to know if I was doing him proud. Amy (37:30) That's brilliant. And I'm sure from everything you have shared in your journey, I'm absolutely sure that you will be doing, you know, him proud. Andrew (37:39) I could cry. I could cry at that thought. That's a beautiful thing. Amy (37:43) Well, I think equally you've shared some really just great, you know, concepts, insights, information, but, know, practical kind of just thoughts that hopefully our listeners can resonate with and take away. And, you know, I think the journey you are currently on is so inspiring. We're talking about where you're at now and all the positives at it, but equally, I appreciate it. It probably hasn't been a totally easy journey as you have navigated through these changes, you know, as well. Andrew (38:08) Yes, it's so true. And that might be in the next book. But for now, go and buy the first one. Amy (38:14) Brilliant. And yes, as we wrap up, give a shout out to where people can, you know, find out more about you, check out the book and your other work as well. Andrew (38:22) The best place right now to find me as Instagram -- hello_andrewsloan, and no "e" at the end. You'll probably link it into the show. That's the best place to keep up to date with what's going on. There will be van content coming in the months ahead, but yeah, the book is really anywhere. There's a great audio version on audible, which is like having a conversation with me where you don't get a word in. Amy (38:33) Yeah, I'll add all the links in. Andrew (38:50) And it's just me speaking at you for six hours that has a digital resource connected to it where you can get the tools, the resources that I speak about in the audio book. But of course it's available on paperback, Kindle. If you go and Google "Why Things Feel F*cked", you'll find everywhere that it lives. But, yeah, come follow me on Instagram, grab the book, join into the conversation and yeah, get ready for the next book that I'm writing now on the road. Amy (39:15) Brilliant. Thank you. Well, safe travels and I look forward to seeing where you end up next. Andrew (39:21) Thank you, Amy.
February 23, 2026Episode 6629 min
Reclaiming Joy: Why Fun Matters for Women After 35
Summary When was the last time you had a night out that felt completely worth it? In this episode, Amy is joined by 'The Jodie's', Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries, founders of House of Zim; a women-only events concept redefining what a great night out looks like for women over 35. Guest Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries are co-founders of House of Zim, a Sydney-based women-only events concept designed for women over 35. With backgrounds in brand and marketing, they've combined strategic thinking with lived experience to create thoughtfully curated, early-evening dance events that prioritise connection, nostalgia and joy. Overview Between careers, children, responsibilities and the constant pressure to optimise our lives, joy can quietly slip down the priority list. And when getting out requires organising childcare, coordinating diaries and reshuffling life's logistics, the stakes feel higher. If you're going to make the effort, it needs to be worth it. House of Zim was built around that idea - "a guaranteed good night". Together, they explore why women-only spaces feel different, what actually happens on a dance floor when women feel safe, and how music reconnects us with parts of ourselves that may have been pushed aside. The conversation moves beyond events into something deeper; identity, permission, friendship and the courage to prioritise what makes us feel alive. If you've ever wondered when you last danced, laughed freely or did something purely because you wanted to, this episode will resonate. Key takeaways How the loss of 'joy' sparked the idea of creating 'House of Zim' What 'House of Zim' really means, and who it's for The psychology behind music, memory and connection Building a brand aligned with values and the misconceptions How women-only spaces shift energy and confidence For more information on House of Zim https://houseofzim.com/ Transcript Amy (00:02) Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I'm joined by the Jodies, Jodie Whelan and Jodie De Vries, friends, sister-in-laws and co-founders of House of Zim, a women-only events concept rethinking what a great night out looks like for women over 35. Today we're talking about the role of fun, the power of women-only spaces and what it takes to design a guaranteed good night -- and also what it is like building a business together. Welcome to the podcast, ladies. The Jodies (01:04) Hi, thanks for having us. Amy (01:06) Thank you. It's so lovely to see you and thank you for bringing your dancing vibe, the energy to this podcast. So our listeners can't see that, you when I dialed in the ladies were there enjoying a good old dance, well and truly living at their brand. I'd love to obviously chat to you about House of Zim, what you're creating and the journey you've been on so far and where you're heading. But tell us firstly, a little bit of the origin story and was there an exact moment for you where you realized fun had perhaps slipped off your radar in your lives. The Jodies (01:43) Yeah. So, Jodie and I used to own a business together, a branding agency. Jodie still has it, Tiny Hunter. And I stepped back from that about four years ago. Life was too busy and I have two young children. Jodie has three young children and it wasn't too busy for her, but I know we've all got different limits. And so I stepped back and decided to have a little bit of time out and I sort of was mulling over, I was wondering, will I go back in? What else did I want to do? And part of me thought, well, you know, I'll go off and be independent. But actually, I did keep coming back that I wanted to work with Jodie again. And I'd been through the whole, you know, burnt out wellness rituals, all of that, and they helped. They did. But then at some point, I really just started feeling like I wanted to lean back into fun again. And so Jodie was very supportive and she'd come out to me with all these nights out. And we found that we were going to this one particular bar in the city. We loved it. We knew that it was always going to be great music, but it didn't get good until later on in the evening. And also there was a lot of young people there and young people are lovely. And God bless all the 20 year old women who want to wear crop tops and have fantastic bodies. But I was just perhaps in a place where I was like, Ooh, this is making me feel a bit old. So, yeah, I sat across from Jodie in a cafe and was like, I know you're really busy, but might you want to start a guaranteed good night out for women who are 35 and over? And that really was as simple as that. We knew that we wanted women to have a crowd that they could relate to. We knew that we wanted it to be music that you know and love. So we're particularly passionate about 90s and 2000s house and pop. And we knew that we wanted it to be a good venue. So, know, no sticky floors, places that respect your age and that you feel like you're gonna have a good night in. Amy (03:48) Brilliant. And what made you decide to go down women only specifically? The Jodies (03:55) Women are the best. Sorry. I just think, well, there are lots of places that you can go to that are for everyone. And we wanted to create something that was special. And I guess, you know, all our girlfriends, they want to catch up with each other, spend time together. So it was creating a space for that, but where they could make new memories instead of talking about the old memories. And I think there's just really a special kind of magic when you get a whole group of women together just having fun, let their hair down. I don't know why, but it's just different. Yeah, there's a certain kind of freedom. Amy (04:30) Absolutely. Yeah. And when I first heard the concept and Jodie, we'd met at a networking thing last year and I was just like, yes, he totally resonates with me on this. Yeah, you know, I turned 40 in October, which I actually celebrated at your event, at your October event, which was amazing. So I can definitely vouch for being a tried and tested attendee. Yeah, it was when you get to this sort of age and perhaps you're not going out as much as you were. There's other responsibilities, you know, we've all had the hangovers and such. Like, it's not really worth the next day. And I always say this, that phrase, borrowing the hours of the next day. You know, if you stay out after midnight now, it is like, God. The Jodies (05:15) Yeah, that's right. So our next event runs seven till 11 PM. Yeah. And we're really specific about the type of venue that we want because by the time that you've, if you've got kids, you're organising a babysitter, maybe you need help with your parents or you've got to do something with your pet, you know, and then you've got to get all of your friends together into the same timeline that it's going to work for. It's really annoying if you go out and have a shit night. So if you're going to do it, you want to make sure that you're going to have a guaranteed great night out. So that's what we're really, we're very discerning about the venues that we use. We only ever use female DJs. Mostly we're using DJs who are in that 35 plus age bracket. We have got one who we just really love. She's a bit younger, but we still forgive her. It is hard to find good female DJs. So if anyone is thinking of doing it, do it. And the other thing, you know, earlier I spoke to that whole, just felt like I was ready to lean into fun and I didn't want to stay in this sort of serious mindset. Jodie's talked about this before. It's like, take supplements, do squats. Are you talking to your children enough? What connection method do you have with your partner? Are you getting eight hours sleep? Are you timing it on a ring or a watch? And it's like, Jesus Christ, we'll just go out and have a good time because actually if you look at any study to do with wellness, all those come lower down and at the top, is walking and dance. Yeah, that is the best thing. And you're out with your friends, you're making new memories. That was one of the things we also talked about. Sometimes you get into this catch up. Yes. And so you meet and you're just telling each other what you've done. And also often, let's be honest, women of a certain age complaining about all of the things you're having to do when you're stressed about. And so we really like the idea of just letting women create new memories. And we always say living a hell yes life. That's what we want. That when somebody sees our event, it's a hell yes answer. Like you said, you saw it and were like, ooh, this really resonates with me. Amy (07:17) And it's so funny when you were just saying there reeling off the list, it does sometimes feel like it's a full-time job now just to sort of stay alive, just to adult, you know, it's like between the, well you've got to be getting the meditation in, and the journaling, and make sure you're moving for exercise. And if you actually look at all of the other great tips and advice and all of this and wellness, you're like, well, if I do all of those things, what am I actually doing any work or doing the, you know, shopping and the cooking and all of that? There's definitely that freedom feeling, I think, just generally dancing. And I know myself when we were on your dance floor in October, a girlfriend who's got two little ones now, and she actually said to me, she was like, this is the first time I feel alive and like me. I think since, you know, since having the children. And I think because we are in that, you know, if you do have children more so, but obviously if you're just busy with other things in life, you're constantly thinking about those things. And we put ourselves to the bottom of the pile, really, that our fun can come when there's time for it. The Jodies (08:19) Yeah. Yeah. I think women spend a lot of time thinking about the shoulds. And sometimes when I'm talking to women and I'm just like, you can do something just cause you want to, you know that, right? And it feels shocking and it's shocking that that feels shocking. It shouldn't. We need to go out and have fun. Amy (08:37) Absolutely. You mentioned as we were starting that you guys come from a brand and marketing background. The name House of Zim, where does that originate from and what does it mean to you? The Jodies (08:48) Yeah, well, so Zim means my song, my joy. And then we knew that we loved that word. And then we just had a bit of a play and an experiment. And then we loved the idea of House of Zim because it, you know, I know it sounds so trite, but we do really want to build a community of women who respect that pursuing joy is important. I just got given. I just got given a voucher for a massage and it's one hour massage and that's lovely. But I know that it was $160. And in my head, I was like $160 for a massage. That's one hour. I mean, women come to House of Zim and it's $99 and they get four hours of joy and they're dancing and they get to hang out with their mates and you know, there's all these things. So I just think it's interesting thinking about putting something as simple as dancing and just going after joy at the... the top of your list that is going to be good for you. But we just feel really passionately about that. Amy (09:48) Absolutely. And what do you think women are actually releasing on a dance floor that they don't have space or time to release elsewhere? The Jodies (09:56) I think it's like, I mean, I do love a massage too. You don't get me wrong. You know, I think it's like you were saying before, it's like a freedom of spirit thing. It's like tapping into that kind of carefree, like when you're young and you're just not thinking about it, it's like going to a different place. I think it's freedom. Amy (10:15) I think there's an element and I'm actually getting goosebumps now actually, because I think some of the tunes, as you said, it is tapping into some of those songs. So it is almost bringing back those memories as well. When you hear the song, takes you back to some of those nights out at whether it was other friends or, you know, university, college, whatever that really, it was like you had no responsibilities. The Jodies (10:37) Yeah. It's in your bones. It's so true. It's that whole remembering who you are and feeling alive things, tapping into something that's just been a bit squashed for a while. Yeah. I was just going to add, Amy, you know, when you hear a song and you can't help but throw your hands in the air, or you have to go, I love this song. And that feeling is so, it's just an instant dopamine release. It's so good. or dopamine hit, I guess, but yeah, I just think it's really important. And I've been thinking about going into a bit of a scientific space, but I was reading a study the other day, and it was saying about how people that dance are that much more empathetic and closer to their friends, because when you're dancing, you have to innately watch the other person see what their body's doing. You're looking at their facial expressions and the joy or, know, if sometimes if they're awkward, hopefully not. But you're sort of learning all of those things. So your empathy is building and also you're feeling that much of a stronger connection to your friend. And dance floors are really powerful for that. And they have been dropping away. So there's a lot of research coming out at the moment. Because now you see the memes of sort of old dance floors back in the 90s. And now somebody goes to see a DJ and stands there with their phone. Amy (11:54) Yeah, and they're still not fully immersive in it because they're like, they're doing it to either record it so your attention split or then they're immediately sharing it on social media. So then you're like, you're sharing this for others, not just for yourself. The Jodies (12:10) Right, yeah. So it's so lovely to just be there, be with your friends, have that moment in time to just focus on each other. Amy (12:19) Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit further about you two working together because obviously friends, previous business owners together, and sisters a lot. I mean, you can't really get away from each other. The Jodies (12:29) She follows me everywhere. Amy (12:32) What do you two see that you both bring to the party? You know, do you have clear - right, you're that sort of roles and responsibility on this? How does the dynamic work? The Jodies (12:42) She's in charge of delusional optimism. I'm a reality check. The reality. I don't think I'm a pessimist, but you know. That's exactly what might happen. Her brother says to me all the time as well "I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist." That's true. I am sometimes a bit of a delusional optimist. I do think you need that in business, I think you need absolute conviction in what you're doing to last the distance. Amy (13:15) Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And how do you make decisions when you disagree? The Jodies (13:21) Yeah, that's a good one. Because we do, we're quite different. We're different in our approaches to working. So Jodie is a very deep thinker and deep research. And I like a lot of research, but I, what was that word? A satisficer? The maximiser and the satisficer. Is that what it is? So a satisficer is like, sometimes people can go too deep and they'll spend all this time researching and figuring out. But in doing all of that, once you make your decision, it's like you've got more information behind you to sometimes doubt that decision. The satisfier sort of goes and looks about and figures it out. And then it's like, yep, I'm going to go with that. And then they don't really have a question in their decision because they haven't got all that other information. I do. I like to move fast. Jodie, she likes to think about things longer and she will slow me down when it is needed. And it absolutely is needed sometimes. But I don't think we really disagree on big things. No. So really interesting about music though, because obviously music is a really important part of house music. And I'm 44, Jodie's 48. So just that four years /of when we went out/ I think we grew up on different continents. I'm UK. So I think there's songs that are really like, I don't know, ones that you're really passionate about. I'm like, I've heard that before. I didn't think of that. Yeah. And vice versa, obviously. Amy (14:46) Course yeah that I didn't even think of that. The Jodies (14:50) So we have a lot of good, robust conversations around music. But we always figure it out. Yeah. We're pretty lucky. Amy (14:57) Also what's important in any sort of business working partnership, whether it's your actual business or you're just in a team together, is you've taken the time to understand the different working styles and understand where your strengths or differences lie for sure. I could definitely relate to what you were saying because I Alex and I are the same. I'm probably the researcher, the over-researcher and then get stalled where Alex will, you know, the shoot from the hip and just do things and make them happen. But then sometimes without any research. then you're like, ummm. I'm going to ask you a couple of myth busters. What's the biggest misconception about women only events? The Jodies (15:35) That they're for lesbians. The amount of people I get messaging me asking that and I'm like, no, I mean, lesbians are more than welcome, but it's just women having fun with women. And I won't reveal who said it, but a man said to Jodie, so there's not going to be men and women will still have a good time. Nonplus that straight women would want to go out just by themselves. I just was like, honestly, it's so good. It's so much fun. Amy (16:08) And we touched on when we spoke the other week, Jodie, that it's not until you go, you realise how you never realise, not that there's an issue with men in a bar or a nightclub, but actually just when it was completely same sex, that extra level of just total relaxation. know someone's not going to, shall we say, pick you up or you're going out and then somebody's trying to talk to you and really, yeah, you're out with your mates and you're trying to catch up with them. You're not looking to necessarily make new mates. What do people assume about women 35 plus that you think is completely wrong? The Jodies (16:42) That they need to do more, that they need to be more productive or manage their emotions better to be happier and satisfied in their life. I just don't think that's true at all. I think they should have the emotions they need to have. And I think they should go at the pace that they need to go at. And I think they should definitely put House of Zim in that mix. Shameless self-promotion. Amy (17:08) Yeah, I love it. And what's the most unexpected thing women have said to you after one of the events so far? The Jodies (17:16) God, we've had so many good comments. I mean, a woman came up to me and said that she hadn't had that much fun since her wedding, which was, thought 15 years ago, but actually 20 years ago. And I'm just like, that's wild. Like that is really wild. You know, she said that her cheeks were hurting from smiling. It was such a good time. That was unexpected and really beautiful to hear. And we've also had women come up to us and say, my God, I feel like we found our tribe. And that lady, well, there was actually three of them, but so they must've been late fifties, I think. And I've definitely been feeling when I've been going out, I don't feel as comfortable as I used to. And so I can only imagine, you know, with a few extra years on that, that it might feel even more so. But they were amazing on the dance floor, you know, they, they wanted to jump around and have a lot of fun and they really felt like they were allowed the space to do that there. So it was great. Yeah. Maybe the most unexpected thing was the woman that said, can I bring my 18 year old daughter? Yeah. Amy (18:16) Once you can actually notice that you're too young for this. The Jodies (18:20) I said, I'm so sorry. really want the women coming to understand the crowd that's going to be there. But I love that she was like, this is so good. I want to bring her, but no, not allowed. Amy (18:31) This is our space now, you know, it's back our time. And what you said, Jodie, then about, you know, that person saying that maybe the last time they had that much fun was their wedding. Actually, yeah, the reality is that now, you know, we're in our 30s, 40s, some of the time, opportunity to dance, to go out is like, it's a wedding. It's a wedding. Or it's some other function, whether that's again, I don't know, location, proximity, obviously finances. Again, if I think back to those university days and just after. The Jodies (18:49) Totally. Amy (19:00) You know, you're out two to three times a week. Yeah. And it was a very clear, you know, Thursday was at so-and-so, Friday there, Saturday there. And, you know, it was literally that's what your money was being spent on really. And then outfits to go out. I think, yeah, other life kicks in. The Jodies (19:17) The thing is though, yeah, when you're going out all the time, you know, there's lots of fun to be had, but when you're not going out as often, it's too unpredictable. So it's like, maybe there was a good DJ last week, maybe this week there's no DJ. So it's so hit and miss. And that's kind of disappointing if you're not going out. Amy (19:32) And the friction, like you said, that logistics to go or organise things, people just put it in their, it's just, too hard basket to bring it all together. And then they're missing out on the fun. The Jodies (19:42) Totally. I mean, before we started House of Zim, I always used to say what you were saying about weddings, you know, the only time you really get to have a good dance these days is weddings. And I'm like, now I'm going to have to wait for second weddings. Amy (19:53) And then a bit of a downer, but it's a funeral. The Jodies (19:56) Honestly, that's what we used to talk about. But now, I mean, we do House of Zim once every two months. We obviously understand that women aren't going to be going out all the time. But I think it's really lovely, as Jodie said, to know that it's a guarantee that you're not really taking the gamble. Whether it's going to be the right music or that the crowd are going to be okay. Amy (20:18) Well, before I jump into asking you three of our Really Good Conversation card questions, and you can both answer this or one of you, but does a conversation come to mind that has either changed the direction of your life or had a profound effect on your life? The Jodies (20:34) Yes, can I ask? I feel like I'm jumping in. Well, for me, that would be when I first interviewed with Jodie. I'd come to Australia and I was meant to be traveling, but I loved it so much I thought, perhaps I'll stay. I had to convince my best mate who was with me. And I knew that I had six weeks to try and find a role that would sponsor me to stay in Australia. And I'd been going to these interviews and I just hadn't clicked, I really wasn't finding anybody that I liked. I was talking to a lot of recruiters and then I saw this one ad that talked about a shiny disco ball in their studio and that they loved the way that the light hit it and that they were drinking affogatoes and they were, you know, they all were like a family and all different stuff. Anyway, I answered it, but I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go all in. So my cover letter was like, I love disco balls. And I sort of really let all my personality out. And then Jodie rang me personally because she had responded to the way that I had written, but I thought she was a recruiter. So I was a little bit like not really leaning into the conversation. So I was so over talking to recruiters. And then when I actually arrived at the studio and we got talking, it was just an instant click. And so then Jodie hired me with a view to sponsorship and she did. She allowed me to stay in Australia. She introduced me to her brother who also worked for her. I then married him, I have my children. So really, this person changed everything about my life. And in the years where I stepped back from Tiny Hunter, which I will say, when you're running a business together, it's really hard, you'll know this. And to tell Jodie that I was stepping back was honestly one of the hardest things I've ever done because I believed in that business and I didn't want to leave it because I know it's really stressful. Amy (22:05) That's amazing. The Jodies (22:25) But I needed to do that for myself and that's a hard thing for women to do as well. And Jodie was incredible. And I'd go out with her afterwards and be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'd feel like the shell of a person and I just don't know. And she always had time and space for me and we'd go on walks and figure it out or we'd have wine or we'd go out dancing, you know, and she just always was there, even though I'd said, see you, I'm just going to leave you with that business. And then when I went back to her and said, hey, do you want to do something else, even though you're really busy? She was like, yeah, sure. Amy (22:58) I love it. And it's amazing to create that friendship relationship with each other. So yeah, it's super inspiring. The Jodies (23:05) Talk about how good I am. No. Amy (23:07) The other Jodie is kind of like, yeah, you married my brother, so I kind of have to be nice to you because… The Jodies (23:15) She could have married him sooner, so I didn't have to pay all that money to make her a permanent resident. Amy (23:24) Brilliant. Right. Well, I'm going to put you on the spot and you can both answer these or however you feel from our really good conversations. Question number one, describe yourself using only three words. The Jodies (23:33) What's in the deck? Gosh. Curious, loyal, determined. I'll pass. Amy (23:52) You're like, yeah, yeah, those ones for me as well. Question number two, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? The Jodies (24:00) I mean, when I think about what I want to pass on to my kids, it's like save money, invest, buy property, do all those things earlier. I think that's the only thing that I think about that I'm like, I wish my parents had talked to me about any of that sort of financial side of things. I would be much further ahead if I had. Yep. I'm ever the delusional optimist, kind of the opposite. I want my kids to know that, I guess, really understand that money isn't the be all and end all and that you can find happiness in somebody who makes you tell me, feel calm and going outside and looking at a tree. You know, I sort of do a little bit on the opposite side, I like money too. Amy (24:44) Can you balance each other out? The children will be cousins. The Jodies (24:48) Yeah, exactly. The aunties do both sides. Amy (24:50) Go to the alternate aunties for some, you know, grounding and some blue sky thinking as well. So, love it. Question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say? And you can both answer this one. The Jodies (25:04) I mean, should we answer it for each other or for ourselves? Fun. I think mine would say "very excitable". I think get a bit over excited. Yeah, yours would say very excitable, PS, get some phone insurance. Yeah. I've lost a lot of phones over the years that the business has had to pay for because I'm so excited. I'm not thinking about where my phone is. Amy (25:26) You need to reduce it to just the dummy phone. That's all you get. If you keep losing them, that's what you have. The Jodies (25:32) You know what I think mine would say? She might have a poker face, but she really does like you anyway. It is hard to get past Jodie's poker face. For the first year of knowing Jodie, you're going to be like, does she like me? I'm not really sure. But actually she'll be loving you, but she's just got this, she's like an iceberg, you know, only a little bit above the water and so much underneath. Amy (25:53) Wow. I think for me, you see all of my emotions, reactions over my face, I'm probably not good at hiding. The Jodies (25:59) Well, you know, we're very opposite. Yeah, are. We've got nothing in common. What are we doing here? Amy (26:06) Yeah, this is how it works though. Brilliant. Well, and the last question I love to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? The Jodies (26:17) You go, we've, we've talked about this and I love your answer. The first one of the second one. Okay. Well, the first thing that comes to mind for me. So my father passed away a long time ago and my mom is quite sick with dementia. And I think you take for granted when you're growing up, all the stories that they talk about family history, what's happened in their lives. And we just had a moment, me and my siblings, where we were like, had a question and we were like, We've got no one to ask. So I think I would just say to my dad, tell me everything, like tell me all about your life. But this time I would take notes. Amy (26:55) Beautiful. Did you want to add one, Jodie? The Jodies (26:59) Well, I can add it because I'm sort of part of your family, but these guys had a great granddad called Albert Whelan and he was from a really wealthy family. They were Jewish and he fell in love with a Catholic girl. And so he left the family and he was disowned. He was disowned. But he went on to become really famous in the UK. He was part of the Royal Variety performances. He was famous for whistling, which sounds so random these days, but it was a big skill back in the day. And yeah, he went on, Is Your Life. He had a beautiful book. He was really renowned. And so we just like to hear about what that was like and was it worth it? And did he think about that sliding door moment? Was it worth it walking away from all the money for the love? Jo would say, yes. And I'd say, that would have been good security. Amy (27:50) That's the thing, every time they maybe would have had an argument or disagreement, you'd be slightly like, I could be now, you know, chilling on a yacht, not dealing with you. The Jodies (28:00) Exactly. Amy (28:02) Brilliant ladies. Thank you so much for your time today and everything that you've shared. Give us just a quick snapshot of what's on the horizon for House of Zim in 2026 and, you know, a bit of a shout out of where people can find more information on, on you guys and events and such. The Jodies (28:19) So we're at www.houseofzim.com and we're on Instagram and Facebook and we've just started on TikTok. We are hoping to launch a podcast this year, which is really exciting. Just get everybody talking about, you know, how to find joy in their life and how to bring that out at this stage in your life. And we're also creating merchandise. So we've got two awesome t-shirts at the moment, but lots more design in the works and I'm very passionate about creating like a little party capsule wardrobe, you know, these gorgeous glittery jackets and some sequin pants. And yeah, we're excited to do that too. Amy (28:58) Brilliant, well best of luck with it all and I look forward to seeing you guys on the dance floor soon. The Jodies (29:03) See you then!
February 9, 2026Episode 6534 min
Intimacy, Desire and the Conversations Couples Avoid
Summary In this episode, Amy is joined by Isiah McKimmie to talk about intimacy, desire and the conversations couples often avoid. They explore why desire changes over time, how comparison and unrealistic expectations create pressure, and why focusing on what gets in the way of connection can be more helpful than trying to "do more". Guest Isiah McKimmie is a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Overview With Valentine's Day approaching, this conversation looks beyond the romance and into the realities of long-term relationships; the conversations we avoid, the expectations we carry, and the quiet ways intimacy can start to feel harder over time. Isiah shares what couples most commonly come to therapy for, and why the issue they arrive with is often only part of the picture. Together, Amy and Isiah explore why sex and intimacy feel so emotionally loaded, how avoidance can slowly erode connection, and why comparison often creates unnecessary pressure. They also unpack how desire naturally fluctuates across a relationship, the role emotional and mental load play in intimacy, and why removing what blocks connection is often more powerful than trying to add more. Key takeaways Why the issue couples come to therapy with is often only part of what's really going on The conversations couples avoid most Why changes in desire are normal across long-term relationships The impact of emotional and mental load on intimacy and connection Why improving intimacy often starts with removing what gets in the way, rather than trying to do more For more information on Isiah McKimmie https://isiah-mckimmie.com/ Transcript Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Isiah McKimmie, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Welcome to the podcast. Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy. Amy: Thank you for joining me. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation because suddenly we are in February and February is supposed to be the month of love. Valentine's Day is coming up and whether you're in a relationship or not, that could come with all of its different pros, cons, emotions. And I just thought this was a great time to have a conversation with someone like yourself and chat a little bit more about some of the sex, intimacy, the conversations we're avoiding perhaps in relationships as well. Firstly, before we jump in, what do you think of the world of Valentine's Day? Isiah: So this is an interesting question. You've put me on the spot straight away. It's such an interesting time for relationships because we come through December and we see the most amount of breakups of any month of the year. And of course, so much strain on relationships. And then we come into January that has dating Sunday, the most number of sign-ups on, on dating apps. Everyone has a renewed hope for their relationships. And then we come into Valentine's Day. And for me, yes, it's lovely to celebrate love, but I think we should be doing this every month of the year and taking actions to strengthen our relationship every day of the year, not waiting for the one special day. So that is my, that is my tension point around it that We can't just wait for Valentine's Day to do the romantic things. Amy: Yeah. And I feel the same when it comes to, know, Mother's Day, Father's Day and such. And then it is the pressure if you are a daughter or a son, or if you now have children of yourself and it's like, well, what are we doing on this day? And we do put this extra pressure on ourselves. Valentine's been one. And I don't know, it's funny when you're in a longer term relationship, you glaze over these dates a bit more as well. Let's dive a little bit into your world. And when couples come to see you for therapy or guidance, what do they usually say the issue is? Isiah: Yeah, so couples really show up to see me for all kinds of reasons. So I really work at the combination of couples therapy, relationship therapy, and also sexology. And so there's a really broad spectrum of challenges in there. Really the three biggest topics that people show up with are for a mismatch in sexual desire, usually because one person has noticed a drop in their desire levels over the course of the relationship and it's starting to cause confusion, anxiety or friction between the couple. They show up because they're in a cycle of arguments that they can't seem to resolve, bickering with each other, arguments going in circles, arguments starting over silly little things, and generally just feeling disconnected. as well. So couples feeling like they're growing apart, they still like each other, but they're wondering if they're becoming more like friends or housemates. they've kind of lost some of the connection and spark that, makes their relationship feel special. Amy: And how often do you find what they come in asking for help with is perhaps not actually the issue that they're experiencing. Isiah: Yeah, look, a lot of the time and the way myself and my team look at relationships is very holistically. So we have a lot of research and data that has been gathered over the past 50 years on what makes relationships really strong and lasting and what will predict the end of a relationship. And there are about 30 different factors that we actually measure for in the assessment stage of a relationship. And of course, if you haven't studied this, if no one has told you all the different things that we need to make or break a relationship, you're not gonna even know the things that you're doing that are really right necessarily. And you might be overlooking the things that are getting in the way. And I certainly see this when couples show up. with a mismatch in desire levels. And a lot of couples will say, this really the last piece of the puzzle. It's the only thing we generally have a really good relationship aside from this. And although that might be true when we start asking a few more questions, we often notice that there are some underlying challenges that have just been overlooked because they're just so busy, you know, getting on with life, all these things have kind of crept in slowly. And so that can be things like how the mental load is shared. can be how much time a couple is spending together during the day. It can be how much fun and playfulness they're having. Of course, also the way that they're communicating plays an enormous role in the relationship. And we know that it doesn't matter what couples are arguing about, it's how they're having those conversations together that makes the biggest difference for the success of their relationship. Amy: Yeah. Gosh, and you touch on their conversations, which is obviously something that we're all about. And what do you find the hardest conversations couples are avoiding or struggle to have? Isiah: Yeah, I think every couple will have their own hot button topic usually that they know is kind of heading into danger territory. The really common topics are around sex, around finances, around parenting and around housework and chores. Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I definitely know sometimes if we're having, you know, Alex and I conversations, it might be getting to the end of the night, just as you're about to go to bed. And then Alex might bring up the topic of finances. And I think about literally tried to go to sleep. Now is not the time to get into a finance conversation. Isiah: It's so tricky for couples who are so busy and who have children and are not getting privacy for so much of the day, but then you know that something's on your mind. We have really good data that shows couples who are more connected during the day are more likely to have conversations that go well at the end of the day. So for couples who've been disconnected, know, kind of ships passing in the night, they're off to work, they're busy, they get home. You know, they don't even really kind of see each other. They haven't actually checked in with each other. When one of them raises a sensitive topic, if that couple again is disconnected, that conversation is more likely to end with kind of tension or in a heated way afterwards. So it's part of why we want to make sure, at least I do as a couple's therapist, that I'm addressing a relationship holistically. And I'm giving couples tools so that they can strengthen their relationship holistically. Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And why particularly the topic of sex and intimacy? Why does that feel so emotionally loaded? Isiah: Sex is such a deeply personal, vulnerable experience. And it's a topic that most of us are not taught how to talk about. know, when, when we often think about growing up, for most of us, sex really wasn't discussed in our household. you know, we might've overheard awkward conversations. We might've got a tiny little bit of sex education, but we're not taught how to talk about it. openly, we're often not even taught the anatomically and physically correct words to use. So when we're not taught that as children and young adults, we are going to struggle with that later in life. and, and that's, you know, consequently what we see in a lot of couples and a lot of people will find it easier to actually have sex than to talk about it with their partner. so you know, showing up in therapy to finally open these topics around sex can feel really vulnerable, which is why actually therapy can also be really helpful because we can really hold couples and support them to have those difficult but really important and sometimes really good conversations. Amy: Yeah, and wow, it's the same that kind of topic like money, know, when people, again, you may inherit this from their parents and it's like, you know, we don't talk about money, you know, that's crude to talk about, sort of sex is in that same vein. Isiah: Absolutely, and there can be so much emotion around it. Embarrassment, shame, vulnerability. You know, sometimes it can feel like the success of the relationship is riding on the sexual component when it's become a heated issue between people and that makes it harder to talk about again. yeah, it makes so much sense that that this is tricky. Amy: And what conversations do you think actually need to happen before couples talk about the topic of sex? Isiah: So I always want to make sure that couples can talk about any topic well before they do this. And that means not using damaging communication techniques like criticism and blame and shaming a partner. We want to make sure that both people can share how they're feeling about it really well, that they can gently name their underlying needs around something, but that they can also listen and really try to understand their partner on this because so often both partners really have some deep and sensitive feelings about sex. A partner with lower desire is often feeling guilty and worried. about what it will mean for the relationship and they might try to avoid the conversation so they don't have to deal with it. A partner with a higher desire is often feeling rejected and hurt and angry, but underneath that often really sad and lonely. And so they also need to be able to find ways to express that really well, rather than going into again, criticism or starting conversations that would lead to conflict. Amy: Yeah, gosh, that's great. And you've touched on already, you know, there's so much research and data in this space. And, you know, one thing that I saw you speak about recently was the research suggests that couples on average have sex about once a week. Yes. people hearing that, they might think, great, we're doing it more or we're doing it on the average or others are like, we're falling way below that. So firstly, where does this sort of data actually come from? Isiah: There are people who work for universities who get to do large scale studies that study this, survey people, that do in-depth interviews. One of the couples therapy methods that I have learned has actually followed couples and kept updated with their relationship is and what's going in their life for about 20 years at a time. we're really lucky to have all of this data and I think often it can be really helpful because if we're just listening to what other people are saying or we're kind of watching the ideal out in the media, then any kind of comparisons to that are often going to be really unhelpful. So having some validated studies are enormously helpful for us to kind of work from and to inform us. Of course though, when we hear things like this is average, it is the average. And especially when it comes to things like the frequency of sex, I would always say to people, it is not about the amount, it's about finding what works for both of you in that and that you and your partner are somewhat aligned around that. It is normal for couples to have different desire levels and our desire levels will fluctuate over time, but we want to find some kind of balance together so that it doesn't become a point of tension and disconnection in a relationship. Amy: Yeah, because I imagine those sort of averages or stats for people just living in the real world actually may feel quite unhelpful really or make them think they have a problem when they didn't have a problem. Do you think it's helpful for individuals? Isiah: Look, there are times where I think it can be to have somewhat of a baseline to be able to say, okay, well, you know, actually, even though I might want sex three times a week, that actually isn't kind of the reality of what is going on. To hear that it fluctuates, I think can be really helpful. I have heard a story from a colleague who said she had a couple come in and they wanted to have sex more often, really common. They were having sex about once a year. And, you know, they were saying, we, yeah, we want to have it more often. But as she asked questions about it of why do you want to and how often would you want to, for them, that was all about what they had heard about it. And rather than what they what they really wanted. And so she was able to Really kind of say to them, if you are both happy with having sex once a year, that absolutely isn't a problem at all. But of course, if a couple's coming in and one person is saying, I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling rejected and I'm feeling sad because we used to have sex really frequently. And now it's once a month or less. And it's a really important part of how I feel close to you and how I want to connect with you. Then there's something. for us to look out there about what might be getting in the way of that and how they can work together to strengthen firstly their relationship and then what they can do to find more alignment around sex. Amy: And have you seen some common trends of what does change desire? You know, I imagine through somebody's, know, sexual lifespan, it is probably going to go in different peaks and troughs, if you will, for various reasons. Isiah: Yeah. that will be so someone's desire level and the fluctuations in that will often be quite personal to them. So a really helpful way to think about this is as our desire being like a car. like sex drive, if you will. get a car moving, we need to add in accelerators, but we also need to remove brakes. And so sexual desire is really similar. We can't just focus on adding in accelerators, things like sex toys or lingerie or date nights, or, trying to just do it. For most people, a way to increase desire will actually be to remove the brakes that are getting in the way to look at what those are before they start looking at adding in accelerators. So some really common breaks would be tiredness and exhaustion, really common. for women particularly who have young children, sometimes hormonal changes that can cause pain and discomfort, worry that the kids will walk in, changed body image, someone not feeling good about themselves, someone not actually enjoying the sex they are having, someone feeling disconnected in their relationship, feeling overwhelmed with the mental load, feeling like their partner doesn't value. connecting with them and only want sex or feeling pressured to have sex. All of those things would be getting in the way and would often contribute to fluctuations in desire. Amy: Yeah, that's a great answer. And I actually was going to ask a question, but I almost feel like you have answered it there to say if someone is feeling disconnected and wants to boost intimacy, where is a healthy place to start rather than just, yeah, going, have more sex. But you're highlighting actually consider what's happening and those perhaps breaks and blockers that are going on in your life. Isiah: Yeah, and again, I think it's important to look at the relationship as a whole. So we use a method that I developed called the relationship harmony method in the therapy sessions and programs that we do. And it really looks at the four key areas and the four key steps that couples need to address for strong and harmonious relationship. We first need to look at vision and goals. It can be so easy for couples to get caught up on what's wrong and what isn't working, but looking for what you want to create together and looking for the positives in the relationship are a really important first step. We also want to build connection and friendship outside of the bedroom. So there's some of those things I mentioned before, like spending time together, going on date nights, having fun and playfulness together, making sure you feel respected by your partner. The next thing is communication, how you talk about difficult topics, how you handle conflict together, how you repair afterwards. And we have a lot of scripts and processes that we use couples to help do this, because if you are not able to do this well, as we talked about, that's going to impact everything. And I can't expect someone to feel in the mood in the bedroom if they're coming from a place of tension or they've just had an argument with someone. And then absolutely, we wanna look at sexual intimacy because sex is a beautiful and important and special part of an intimate partnership for most people. And so we wanna create all of the conditions we can for sex to feel alive and enjoyable for both partners and to be playful and to be something that both people look forward to. And yes, reducing those breaks and increasing accelerators are part of how couples can do that. But again, needs to fit into, it needs to fit into a whole. Amy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's sort of a phrase that came to my mind when I was preparing for this podcast was that old phrase, sex, love and rock and roll. What comes to mind for you when you hear that phrase? Isiah: It brings to mind how sex can be an alive and fun part of a relationship. I love it. Amy: think for some, it does over romanticise perhaps intimacy in a way that does set some people up for feeling like they're going to fail because it's not electric alive and... Isiah: I think there are so many things in our society and in our culture that make relationships so difficult for us. A lot of the unrealistic expectations that we have around, know, when you find the one, everything will just work. And, know, and that you won't need to put in that effort. You know, things like you won't actually need to communicate. during sex because it'll just happen the way it does in the movies and everyone will know exactly the right thing to do. I think there is so much that sets us up to be disappointed and often let down by relationships. And the reality is that relationships are hard. All relationships are hard. Intimate partnerships are especially hard and they do require our effort and attention. They often require us learning new tools and skills to help them thrive and they're things that so many of us really, really weren't taught. You know, and we're just doing the very best that we can. So we think, yeah, there is, there is a lot that we see that, that doesn't support us well in this area. Amy: And what do you think is perhaps either something missing or a misconception about the stories we tell ourselves about, you know, long-term relationships, long-term love and connection? Isiah: One of the things that is really important in my work is that desire can be sustained. You know, I think for a long time there was a story that sex just goes in a long-term relationship or when women get to a certain age or you know that couples just go through a period and then it's not important anymore. And we actually know and again through the research, following couples throughout their lives that intimacy and desire can be maintained, but there are certain steps that we need to take around that. So it's possible. And we know that women will often have a spike in their desire levels at any age if they get into a new relationship. And so for women, it's not that desire is over. It doesn't necessarily end with menopause. There are women who are having wonderful, enjoyable sex. well through menopause and beyond and actually say that their desire increases. So it's very, very dependent on the person, but to say that it can be, it really can be an ongoing part of a relationship. Amy: Brilliant. Because yeah, I think that is what people sort of think, well, that, you know, you've been together forever, these things fade off and things like that. then people buy then into that narrative and story. And like you said, perhaps don't consider putting in the extra effort that we've been talking about. If someone listening is feeling seen by this conversation and wants an honest conversation, how would you encourage them to have it, to start to open the dialogue? Isiah: Hmm. When you're opening up this conversation, it often really depends on how you think your partner will receive it and where the relationship is. think the important thing is to have the conversation. So we know that couples will often wait years from when they first start experiencing challenges to when they reach out for help and get support. And of course in that, and the average amount of time is seven years, in those seven years, disconnection and resentment build and it gets harder and harder to repair. So I will always encourage people to have the conversation early and to keep having the conversations, to keep checking in about how things are going. And if you do have feedback for your partner about... what you're feeling in the relationship and what you're missing. There's a few steps that I recommend to do that. And firstly, of course, we want to choose a good time. We wanna make sure that they have capacity. We wanna make sure that we're not about to rush out somewhere or hopefully not be interrupted in the middle of something. We wanna let them know our intentions for this because Most people will have good intentions with starting a conversation like this. The intention would be that this relationship is really important to me. And I want to talk about how we can make it better, how we can make sure it lasts for many years to come. So letting your partner know that, letting them know some of the positives to begin with as well. So they don't feel like they're being criticized or attacked. And then if there is something that You want to be different. We want to aim to be as specific as possible so that the person can understand it. And we want to speak using that really common eye language. And I know a lot of people will probably heard that speaking eye. So rather than you're not doing this, you know, I'm feeling this because these needs aren't being met. Can we talk about this? Can we look at what we can do on this together? Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And I think hopefully that will just give some inspiration or thoughts to anyone listening. What do you wish more people understood earlier about intimacy? Isiah: Ooh, about sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy? Amy: both. You'll have to educate us on the, yes, the difference. Isiah: Well, yeah, I mean, think for me, intimacy, I mean, is so much more than sex, but can include sex. You know, it's how much you know about someone, how much you allow yourself to be seen by them. You know, and sexual intimacy, I think, also goes beyond the act of sex. It's how physically affectionate you are with someone, how much you can allow that kind of sexual aliveness to show. around them, how much you feel comfortable talking about sex with them and sharing some of those inner sexual thoughts. One thing that I wish people knew more of around sex is that it's a skill that we can learn. And just like relationships, most of us weren't taught the skills for really wonderful, enjoyable sex. So much of our sex education focuses on what what not to do, how not to get pregnant, how not to catch an infection, rather than how to make sure that you're enjoying yourself, how to make sure your partner is enjoying yourself, rather than all of the different ways our bodies can experience orgasms or other pleasure, or that enjoyment and sexual intimacy doesn't even need to include penetration or orgasm. And that that we can learn all of these things. We can improve our education and we can learn really practical tools and skills that help both people enjoy it more. Amy: Brilliant. Thank you so much. Now, before I put you on the spot with some of our really good conversation cards, I am also just going to ask you from your own journey, has there been a conversation in your life that has changed your direction in life? Isiah: Gosh, that's an interesting question. One particular conversation. Amy: Yeah, if you can think of anything, it might stand out. Isiah: No, but I will say through my psychotherapy training and through my intimacy training, I have really learned to have conversations on a deeper level. I suppose this is what we do as therapists. We're helping guide the people we're working with into thinking about things in a different way, in a deeper way, getting to the root cause of what's going on. And those conversations are often really vulnerable. And so as part of the training that I went through to learn how to help other people do that, that is reflected in my own life and in the conversations I have with my own friends and, my own lovers and, you know, and the people that I meet. So I don't think I, I go back to one particular conversation, but that I've learned a new, a new quality of conversations that. that has changed a lot for me. Amy: brilliant, fantastic. Well I'm now going to ask you three questions from our card. Question number one, what would you say your greatest strength is? Isiah: Right. I am incredibly patient. Amy: Not many people are, I don't think. Isiah: Really, yeah, that is something that I have come to learn about myself through the course of therapy in particular and with couples therapy. And yeah, and absolutely, I would say that I am. Amy: Brilliant! Question number two. How has your life turned out differently to what you had expected? Isiah: my goodness, just completely. I would never have imagined why I didn't even know such a thing as a sex therapist and sexologist existed growing up. This could never have been something that I would have imagined for myself. Amy: And as we touched on before, yeah, sex and things like that weren't really, aren't really talked about with parents around the dinner table. So yeah, you wouldn't have known, that's what I'm going to be when I grow up, Isiah: Absolutely not and probably would not have been encouraged either, you know, if your child came home and said that. Amy: Yeah, question number three. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Isiah: that the quality of our relationships impacts almost every measurable area of our health and wellbeing. And so by improving the quality of our relationships, by learning about our skills, ourselves, by getting tools and skills and practicing doing that better, often with support, if we need to, we can improve our health. and wellbeing and longevity. But if we have children, those benefits then also get passed on to them. Amy: Wow, yes, that is a powerful reminder. Thank you. And the finishing question I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Isiah: I would absolutely ask my grandmother and I think I find it really hard to talk about it without being, becoming emotional around it. I don't know the question that I would ask her. I just know that if I had the chance to ask one more question and to hear from her, I would, I would do that. Amy: that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for everything that you have shared today. It honestly has been amazing just to hear not only what you see from couples, but again, you've shared a lot of great advice and tips inadvertently as we've chatted that I think people could hopefully take away quite a few positive nuggets for, know, in their own lives and relationships. So, no, I really do appreciate everything you've shared. And if you'd like to just tell our guests where they can find out more about you, perhaps what you've got coming up in 2026 as well. Isiah: So absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. It is always such a privilege to share on these topics that I know can make such a difference and that we so often don't get to talk about. So I'm very, very easy to find online. There are not any other Isiah McKimmie out there. So by searching Isiah McKimmie, you will find me on Instagram where I share a lot of information and tools and advice. And you can find my website where we have some free resources and some introductory tools. can also find out about doing therapy with myself and my team. And the really exciting thing that I have coming up this year is we are launching romantic weekends away for couples with the first one being on the Gold Coast at the end of March. They're a Friday night to Sunday. weekend for a number of couples at a time where they get time to relax. There are fun, playful activities that bring them closer. And you'll also hear me talk about more of the things that we spoke about today. So you can also take away some tools and skills for your relationship and get benefits long after the weekend finishes. Amy: That's brilliant, exciting times ahead and I wish you all the best with those. Thank you. And thank you very much. Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.
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