Really Good Conversations

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In our hyperconnected world, it feels like we are becoming more disconnected than ever, so we are on a mission to bring people together through conversation. Welcome to 'The Really Good Conversations Podcast', where we delve into the minds of the wonderful people and businesses we have met in the processes of launching our card game. We will be uncovering their secrets, learning about their biggest mistakes, and sharing the key lessons they have taken from it all. So, if you're looking for an engaging chinwag mixed with business insights and a good pinch of fun, you're in the right place. Let's have a really good conversation...

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August 4, 2026Episode 7738 min

Social Courage: How 500 Lunches With Strangers Changed My Life with Nick Bendel

Summary What could change if we stopped hesitating and started more conversations? Nick Bendel challenged himself to have lunch with 500 strangers, transforming from someone who preferred staying home with a book into an advocate for social courage. In this conversation, Nick shares what six years of lunches taught him about rejection, confidence, listening and genuine human connection, and why we do not need to feel ready before we take action. Guest Nick Bendel is an author, speaker and social courage expert. His book, The 500 Lunches Effect: How Social Courage Changes Everything, explores the lessons he learnt from meeting 500 strangers over six years. Overview Nick shares how the project began with a flight from Sydney to Melbourne to meet his very first stranger and why approximately 95 per cent of the people he approached never responded. He explains how repeated rejection changed his relationship with fear, why confidence usually follows action rather than preceding it, and what his lunches revealed about listening, insecurity and the difference between being interesting and being genuinely interested. Nick also reflects on the lunches where the chemistry simply was not there, the difference between a connection and a friendship, and the emotional moment he realised lunch number 500 was complete. Key Outtakes Confidence often comes after taking action, not before it Rejection can become something we learn from rather than avoid Good conversationalists focus on being interested Dominating a conversation can sometimes come from anxiety or insecurity We do not need to turn every connection into a friendship for it to have value For more information on Nick Bendel: https://www.nickbendel.com/ The Book: The 500 Lunches Effect How Social Courage Changes Everything https://www.nickbendel.com/book/ Transcript Amy (00:02) Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today's guest, Nick Bendel, is an author, speaker and social courage expert who set himself the challenge of having lunch with 500 strangers. Last year, I was lucky enough to be one of them. Nick has now turned the lessons from those conversations into his new book, The 500 Lunches Effect: How Social Courage Changes Everything. Today, we're talking about connection, confidence, curiosity and what can happen when we have the courage to start the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Nick. Nick (01:07) Thank you for having me, Amy. Amy (01:09) It is so good to reconnect properly. I looked back and realised it was July last year that I became part of your challenge as one of your stranger lunches. It's amazing to see that you've now reached the 500 mark and beyond, and that it has all come to life in a book. We'll talk first about our experience and then get more into your world. Can you remember our lunch, any of our conversation or what your perception was when you met me last year? Nick (01:52) I do remember. You were lunch number 491 out of 500, and we met at a Thai restaurant about 500 metres from where I live. I've been there a few times since and I even remember the table where we were sitting. I remember you telling me about growing up in the UK and then moving to Australia. You were back in the UK during the pandemic, and it was while you were there that you came up with the Really Good Conversations cards. I'm lucky enough to be a proud owner of some of those cards, and I've used them with various friends. You also have a wonderful branding agency. Amy (02:40) I did put you on the spot there, didn't I, just to see what you might say? Even when we had our lunch, I remember being amazed that when I asked you about other people you had met and experiences you had had along the way, you could recount the number of every person you'd spoken to, their name and what they did. I thought it was amazing that you still had all of that knowledge. Was there anything about our lunch that aligned with what you were hoping would come out of this experiment? Nick (03:20) That's an interesting question. There were a few broad things I was hoping to get from the lunches. I'm an introvert. My idea of a good time is staying at home on my own with a cup of tea and a good book, so having these 500 lunches was very out of character. I wanted to improve my social skills, change my mindset, become more comfortable putting myself out there, become more emotionally open and build a great network. Apart from those things, I was very open-minded about how the lunches would develop. I didn't really have any rules other than wanting to meet a diverse range of people of all ages, backgrounds and professions, which I was able to do. When we had lunch, I was simply looking to meet someone different. One thing I noticed from the lunches in general, and from you in particular, was that most of the people I invited never replied, which of course is a no. The minority who did reply tended to be more positive, open-minded and proactive than the average person, and you are that sort of person. There are very few people who would have the social courage to create the conversation cards you created or to start a podcast. I would say the same social courage, positive spirit and open mind that leads a person to do those things is probably what leads them to want to meet a stranger for lunch at a Thai restaurant. Amy (05:13) That's amazing to hear. If you think back to the start of this six-year challenge in 2019, can you recall those first lunches? What were you most nervous about before lunch number one, and what actually happened? Nick (05:34) Lunch number one is an interesting story because I actually borrowed the idea of having lunch with strangers from a woman in Melbourne named Kaylee Chu. She had 100 lunches and published a book about it in 2019. I discovered the book just before she published it, pre-ordered a copy and was really impressed. I was inspired by the positive changes that had come into her life as a result of those 100 lunches, so I thought I should do something similar. I ended up doing 500 rather than 100. I contacted Kaley and said, "I've just read your book. It's amazing, and you've inspired me to have 500 lunches. Would you do me the honour of being my very first lunch? I'm based in Sydney and you're in Melbourne, so if that's okay with you, I'll fly to Melbourne to have lunch with you." To my delight, she sent me a very friendly reply and said she would like to have lunch. I remember that day very well. It was 27 August 2019. I woke up at 5.00 am at my home in Sydney and left at about 5.15 am. I walked roughly two kilometres to the train station, caught the train to the airport, flew to Melbourne and then took a bus into the centre of the city. I walked into the restaurant where she was waiting for me, and we had lunch for about two and a half hours. She was very confident and poised because she'd had a lot of these lunches. I was nervous and wasn't really sure what was going on, but she was very kind and helped me through it. After our wonderful lunch, I caught a bus back to the airport, flew to Sydney, took the train back towards home and then walked the rest of the way. I walked through the door at 9.00 pm. It was a really intense day and one I'll never forget. Amy (07:29) When you describe yourself as an introvert whose idea of a good time is staying home with a cuppa and a book, that sounds like quite a mammoth day. Nick (07:40) That's a very good point. I hadn't thought about it that way, but yes, flying 1,000 kilometres to have lunch with someone is a mammoth day. Amy (07:50) For people listening, it's worth remembering that you genuinely didn't know Kaylee Chu. You travelled across the country to have lunch with a complete stranger, which many people would find incredibly daunting. You must have approached a lot of people to secure those 500 lunches. How did people tend to respond when you invited them? Did you receive more rejections than acceptances? Nick (08:29) Absolutely. Probably 95 per cent of the people rejected me, and almost all of them said no by not replying. In six years, I think only three, four or perhaps five people replied to say no. I don't hold it against the people who weren't interested. You only need one reason to say no. They might have been busy, thought it was some sort of scam, or assumed I was trying to sell them something or convert them to my religion. Who knows? If someone had invited me to lunch before I started this challenge, I would have said no. I was the introvert who liked being at home on his own. There's no way I would have had lunch with a stranger, so I don't hold it against anyone for not wanting to meet. But the overwhelming majority of people who said no did so by not replying. Amy (09:28) What did that teach you about rejection? Did it knock your confidence at first, and did it become easier to deal with over time? Rejection is something a lot of people fear. Nick (09:47) I'm really glad you brought that up because it was one of the most profound lessons I could have learnt and became transformative in my life. It ultimately led to this concept I became so passionate about: social courage. Social courage means doing something when you don't feel ready, or when you feel you might be judged, criticised, mocked or rejected. There are so many things in life that we want to do, but we hesitate because we're worried about the reaction. When I started sending invitations and people didn't reply, I remember telling myself, "Nick, don't take it personally. It's not personal." That helped, but part of you still feels bad, especially when someone seems really interesting and you hope they want to meet you, but they don't reply. That can be deflating. Through being rejected so many times, I won't say I became immune to rejection, but I developed a different relationship with it. I stopped seeing rejection as the enemy and started seeing it as a friend. I now think rejection isn't something to avoid; it's something to actively pursue, because you can't get good things without risking rejection, and often a lot of it. Receiving all those rejections taught me a valuable life lesson. I'm now comfortable with rejection, and that gives me the opportunity to ask for things I wouldn't have asked for in the past. Amy (11:40) That is brilliant. You've mentioned how capable people are often held back by hesitation, and perhaps we're more capable than we think. What role does hesitation play in the way we connect with people we don't know? Nick (11:59) I think it's massive, in both our professional and personal lives. Generally, when we don't do something that would benefit us, it's not because we don't know we should do it, because we don't understand the benefit, because we lack motivation or even because we don't know how. It's because we hesitate. We worry about how other people might react. Are they going to laugh at us, judge us, call us an idiot or mock us? Are they going to ask what gives us the right to do that? Are we going to feel embarrassed or humiliated? We hesitate at the key moment. I'm generalising, but what stops us is usually not a lack of knowledge or motivation. It's a psychological blockage. If we can overcome that hesitation and build more relationships, both personally and professionally, we're likely to experience more happiness and success in both areas of our lives. The key is not to think there's something wrong with us for experiencing hesitation and doubt. It's perfectly normal, and everyone goes through it. We also shouldn't think we need to become confident before taking action. Confidence comes after the action. Doing scary things where you would normally hesitate is what gives you confidence. Amy (13:42) If we think about what makes a really good conversation, what did this experience teach you about the difference between being interesting and being interested in people? Nick (14:02) I would say being interested is more important than being interesting because, ironically, if you are interested in people, even if they do most of the talking, they're going to think you're interesting. I'm reminded of three things I learnt from people I had lunch with. One was a man named Ronnie. He told me that when he meets someone, he tries to give them the opportunity to speak about something they're really passionate about. I borrowed that idea and found it's a good way to build rapport. If I give you the opportunity to talk about something you're passionate about, whether that's the podcast, the conversation cards or your family, you're going to engage with the conversation and it will mean something to you. That helps us build rapport. It works well, but it's not a trick. You need to be sincere. When you are sincere, the other person senses that and opens up to you in a genuine way. I learnt another valuable lesson from a man named John. He told me that all of us like to teach one or more things to other people, usually something we're passionate about. If you give someone the opportunity to teach you something, it makes them feel valued and can lead to a great connection because they're able to share knowledge that matters to them. Even though they're doing most of the talking, they're likely to think you're a really good conversationalist. The third piece of advice came from one of my early lunch dates, a woman named Julie. She told me that when she goes to a networking event and meets someone for the first time, she pretends they are the most interesting person in the room. Once she frames it that way in her mind, it immediately changes her body language and mindset. If Amy is the most interesting person in the world, I'm going to hang on every word she says and listen closely. You'll sense that, you'll open up and we'll have a great connection. I implemented those three tips a few years ago, and they're incredibly valuable. They lead to much better conversations because you make the other person feel valued and respected, which helps you build rapport much more quickly. Amy (16:53) I love that. I had some questions about how we can help someone feel safe enough to move beyond small talk, and I think everything you've shared can help with that. What do you think most people misunderstand about being a good listener? Nick (17:12) I don't want to be too critical, but most of us are not very good listeners. Most people think listening means keeping quiet until it's their turn to talk. They're not really listening actively. When you're not actively listening, it shows through your body language, and the other person can pick up on it. This all happens at an unconscious level, but much of communication is non-verbal. The biggest thing people get wrong about listening is that they're not really doing it. As a result, they send negative non-verbal cues that the other person picks up on unconsciously, creating tension between them. If we put aside our need to talk and impress the other person, and instead adopt the mindset that everyone has something interesting to share and something we can learn from, we will listen more closely. That will show through our body language, and we'll have a much better connection and conversation. Amy (18:40) That makes me think about the other side of it. What have you discovered when you're talking to a total chatterbox who leaves very little space for you to take part in the conversation? Nick (19:05) That's a very good question. I've changed the way I think about people who do a lot of talking. In the past, I probably would have said, "That person was really annoying. They wouldn't stop talking or let me get a word in." Now, after having lunch with so many different types of people, including many who dominated the conversation, I have a different view. Often, although not always, it's not because they're self-absorbed, don't care what you have to say or don't want to listen. It's because they're feeling anxious and insecure. When we feel that way in a conversation, talking about ourselves can feel most comfortable because there's nothing in the world we know better than ourselves. Often, when someone won't stop talking, it can be due to insecurity. Rather than feeling annoyed, I now tend to empathise with them. I try to see things from their point of view, understand them and get a sense of why they might be talking so much. If they're nervous, I look for opportunities to make them feel more comfortable. I've noticed that the more comfortable they feel, the less likely they are to control the conversation and the more likely they are to turn it into a back-and-forth exchange. Amy (20:46) I can relate to talking more when I'm nervous because silence can feel uncomfortable. From your experience, and without naming names, were there any lunches where you thought, "This is a challenge. This isn't going how I expected it to go"? Nick (21:34) There were perhaps half a dozen lunches where we really struggled to find any chemistry. I never thought it was the other person's fault, and I never thought it was mine. I saw it as the luck of the draw. I have a certain personality, they have a certain personality, and sometimes they simply don't come together. On those occasions, I tried hard to make the conversation flow, and often the other person did as well, but sometimes it just didn't work. If you meet enough people, sooner or later that's going to happen. Amy (22:14) You've met hundreds of people. What did the project teach you about the difference between connection and friendship? Nick (22:25) Friendship requires some form of emotional connection, which is often down to how two personalities come together. It also requires emotional openness from both parties, as well as some commonality in interests and values. That is very different from a casual acquaintance or connection. You can have perfectly good and enjoyable relationships with casual contacts: someone you talk to occasionally at work, someone you meet through business circles or a parent you see each weekend at your child's sport. Those conversations might last only a few minutes and then be over. We don't need to put pressure on ourselves to turn every connection into a strong friendship. Casual acquaintances can be enough, although it's also important to have a few strong friends. I tend to think we shouldn't force it. If you feel you need more friends, instead of trying to force a friendship with everyone you meet, try to meet more people. The more people you meet, the more likely you are to develop a genuine friendship. Amy (24:08) I love that. It can become more difficult to make new friends as adults, particularly as we move through different stages of life or relocate somewhere new. I'd like to touch on the book itself. The challenge took place over six years, so at what point did you think this experience could become a book? Nick (24:56) It was very late in the process. I think I started writing it six to eight weeks before I finished the lunches. Throughout those six years, many people asked whether I was planning to write a book. I always said, "I don't have plans to write a book, and I don't have plans not to write one. I'll get to the end and decide." Once I reached the end, I decided I would like to write a book because I wanted a record of my experiences. Having those 500 lunches was the best thing I've ever done in my life. If I didn't create some kind of record, I felt I might look back in five or ten years and regret it. I was never motivated by money. I have nothing against money, and if people listening want to give me a lot of it, I'm not going to talk them out of it. But most books sell either no copies or very few, so if you write a book to make money, you're almost certainly going to be disappointed. My goal was to create a record of my experience and write something meaningful. If I achieved those things, it wouldn't matter whether one person or a million people bought the book. Amy (26:28) You typically wrote a LinkedIn post after each lunch, capturing information about the person and some takeaways from the conversation. When you returned from each lunch, did you have a process for documenting your feelings, observations or anything else you had picked up? Did you create a log of some kind? Nick (26:55) I may have had an advantage because I used to be a journalist. Before I began the lunches, I had already become skilled at listening to people, gathering information, sorting it in my head, deciding what belonged in a story and working out the order and angle. After each lunch, while I was travelling home, much of that process happened naturally in my mind through years of habit. There was often a particular reason I wanted to meet someone. They might have had an interesting job, done something in their past that interested me or been pursuing a project I wanted to learn about. Because there was usually one thing that led me to want to meet them, I would ask a million questions about it because I was genuinely curious. That would naturally form the angle of the post because it was what most of our conversation had been about. Some of the posts almost wrote themselves. Amy (28:03) When you completed the book and looked back across the whole journey, were there any lessons that only came to light through the writing process? Nick (28:27) That's a really good question. Writing the book forced me to take a lot of information that was buried deep inside me and articulate it. To put it another way, and I think I'm paraphrasing Carl Jung, I was making the unconscious conscious. This is information you already know because it's buried inside you, but once you articulate it, you suddenly understand it better. That certainly happened to me with the idea of social courage. Social courage was a theme throughout my lunches, but it had never been articulated, so I wouldn't have been able to explain it. I was practising social courage by organising the lunches and contacting people, most of whom never replied. I also noticed that many of the people I met were very successful or had achieved amazing goals, sometimes in their personal lives, and so many of them had displayed social courage. There were also occasions when they lamented not doing something. Often, the reason they hadn't done it wasn't because they didn't want to or didn't know how. It was because they were worried about what other people would say. Social courage was a theme throughout the lunches, but I wasn't consciously aware of it until I sat down to write the book. That's when it gradually emerged. Amy (30:12) It sounds as though the experience gave you a different perspective on many of the people you met, from the chatterboxes to those with whom there wasn't an immediate connection. But you couldn't stop at 500. How did it feel to reach the end, and what does the continuation of the project look like? Nick (31:05) I'm going to keep having these lunches forever because, when I say it was the best thing I've ever done, that isn't hyperbole. I mean it literally. If it's the best thing I've ever done, why would I stop? I remember reaching my 500th lunch. The two of us walked to the front of the restaurant to pay, then he left while I went back inside to use the bathroom. We said goodbye, I closed the bathroom door and suddenly a wave of emotion flooded over me because I was alone behind that door. I thought, "Wow, this is now over. This incredible adventure is over. I've met so many remarkable people, learnt so much and made some really good friends." I became emotional for a while, but I never wanted it to stop. I'm continuing to meet people. In the 11 months since I finished, I've had lunch with another 19 people. The pace has slowed considerably. Previously, it was 500 lunches over six years, or a little more than 80 a year. Now I'm doing around 19 or 20 a year, and for the foreseeable future it will continue at that slower pace. These lunches give me the opportunity to meet amazing people, learn, improve my social skills and practise social courage, so why would I ever want to stop? Amy (32:39) I love that. It's exactly how I feel about this podcast. Doing these things opens you up to experiences and people you might not otherwise encounter. Before we move on to some Really Good Conversations questions, I'd like to touch on the increasingly digital world we live in. You started this challenge in 2019, so what happened during the COVID period when we were in and out of lockdowns? Did you pause the project or move any of it online? Nick (33:20) I'm in Sydney and, for those who aren't familiar with what happened here, we had two lockdowns: one in 2020 and another in 2021. During the first lockdown, I had Zoom lunches. They were good, but not as good as the real thing. During Sydney's second lockdown in 2021, I decided against having any Zoom lunches because I wanted to wait for face-to-face meetings. One benefit of those Zoom lunches was the opportunity to meet people from outside Sydney. If I was going to have a Zoom lunch with someone in Sydney, I might as well wait and meet them face to face. So many of the people I met on Zoom were in other parts of Australia or overseas. Amy (34:13) That is one of the benefits of the digital space. From experiencing both formats, what do face-to-face conversations offer that digital communication can't fully replicate? Nick (34:28) Face-to-face conversation is so much better because so much communication is non-verbal. It's body language and tone. You do get some sense of both through video, but it isn't the same. There's something about being opposite someone in real life that leads to a deeper conversation, a more powerful connection and a more lasting relationship. Amy (35:02) Thank you for everything you've shared. It's a fascinating topic, and I love the challenge and experience you've been through. I can see how it will continue to evolve and adapt. I'm now going to ask you some questions from our cards, and I'm pleased to hear that you've used your pack with some of your friends. Question number one: if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Nick (35:36) This one's easy: "Warning: this guy will ask you a lot of questions." Amy (35:41) Brilliant. Question number two: what is one piece of wisdom you would like to pass on to future generations? Nick (35:53) Start before you feel ready. Amy (35:59) I love that. Question number three: what is the biggest misconception people have about you? Nick (36:08) This might sound a bit strange. Quite a few of the people I had lunch with had heard of me before I contacted them because they had been reading about the lunches on LinkedIn. I think they assumed that, because I was meeting all these people, I would be very gregarious, outgoing and talkative. I'm actually the opposite, and I think that surprised a lot of people. Amy (36:44) I love that answer. Has there been a particular conversation that changed the direction of your life or had a profound effect on you? Nick (37:01) Not one particular conversation, but the lunches as a whole made me much more open-minded and emotionally open. Amy (37:16) The final question I ask all my guests is: if you could ask anyone, dead or alive, one question, who would it be and what would you ask? Nick (37:25) I'm going to choose Oprah. One thing I've always admired about her is her incredible people skills and ability to build relationships with all kinds of people. I would ask, "Oprah, what is your number one tip for building relationships with people you've just met?" Amy (37:53) That would be a great answer to hear. Nick, it's been so good catching up with you and having this conversation. Where can our listeners find out more about you? I'll include the links in the show notes. Nick (38:09) Thank you, Amy, for the wonderful chat. People can visit my website, nickbendel.com, or find me on LinkedIn. Amy (38:17) Fantastic. I look forward to hearing about your upcoming lunches and what you do next. You'll need a new challenge after this one. Nick (38:26) Thanks, Amy.

July 20, 2026Episode 7638 min

Gut Health, Food Myths & Why Inflammation Isn't Just About What You Eat with Lee Holmes

Summary How much of our health starts with what's happening in the gut? In this episode, Amy speaks with Lee Holmes, clinical nutritionist, bestselling author and founder of Supercharged Food and Supercharge Your Gut. Lee shares her own health journey, from autoimmune symptoms and fibromyalgia to discovering the role food, gut health and lifestyle can play in healing. They discuss the connection between trauma, chronic stress, the nervous system and inflammation, as well as the food marketing myths we're sold, what to watch out for in supermarkets, and why healing isn't always about having the perfect diet. Guest Lee Holmes is a clinical nutritionist, yoga and meditation teacher, wholefoods chef, bestselling author and founder of Supercharged Food and Supercharge Your Gut. After experiencing autoimmune symptoms and fibromyalgia, Lee began exploring food as medicine and went on to build a global wellness platform, product range and collection of health-focused books. Her latest book, Eat to Heal, explores the connection between trauma, the nervous system, inflammation and chronic illness. Overview Lee Holmes joins Amy to discuss her latest book, Eat to Heal, and the bigger conversation behind it: how food, stress, gut health and the nervous system all connect. Lee shares why symptoms such as bloating, tiredness, inflammation and brain fog shouldn't always be dismissed as "normal", and why the body often gives us clues long before we listen. The conversation also dives into misleading supermarket labels, the low-fat myth, ultra-processed "health" foods, children's food marketing, and why Lee would remove protein bars from the health food aisle. Lee also reflects on building Supercharged Food across Australia, the UK and the US, and shares the wisdom she wishes she had known sooner. Key outtakes Why gut symptoms such as bloating, constipation, diarrhoea and tiredness after eating can be signs your body is trying to communicate with you How chronic stress, trauma and nervous system dysregulation may contribute to inflammation and long-term health issues Why "low fat", "natural", "heart healthy" and "high protein" labels can sometimes be misleading The supermarket section Lee would cull first Why healing isn't about perfection, and why food fear and self-criticism can become part of the problem Find out more: Lee Holmes Supercharged Food https://www.superchargedfood.com/ Eat to Heal - https://superchargedfood.myshopify.com/collections/books/products/eat-to-heal-book-by-lee-holmes Supercharge Your Gut - https://www.superchargeyourgut.com/ Transcript Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Lee Holmes, a clinical nutritionist, bestselling author and founder of Supercharged Food and Supercharge Your Gut. After her own experience with autoimmune symptoms and fibromyalgia, Lee built a career around helping people use food, gut health and lifestyle tools to support healing. Her latest book, her 12th, Eat to Heal, explores the connection between trauma, the nervous system and inflammation. It asks whether chronic illness needs to be understood not just through the body, but through our stress responses, our microbiome and our lived experiences. In this conversation, we'll go beyond the book and speak to Lee about the wellness myths we're sold, the supermarket habits that are keeping us stuck and what she wishes more people understood about healing. Welcome to the podcast, Lee. Lee (01:32) Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Amy (01:36) Thank you so much for your time. I've already been diving into the book and I've been loving it. This particular topic of gut health and inflammation is something I've been keen to learn more about. For anyone listening who perhaps doesn't know your work, how would you describe what you do today? Lee (01:57) I'm a qualified clinical nutritionist, as you mentioned. I'm also a yoga and meditation teacher, and I run a business with a product line of 20 different products. My work sits across the holistic side of health and wellness. I love talking to people about the gut and food as medicine. How do you use food as a healing instrument in your life? That's the basis of it. My work cuts across clinical nutrition, gut health, the brain and the nervous system. Amy (02:32) Brilliant. There was a quote in the book that jumped out at me. You said your kitchen is your best form of medicine, without needing a prescription. This is now your 12th book, so where did this journey begin for you? This wasn't your previous career. Lee (02:53) No, it wasn't. Previously, I worked at the ABC in Sydney. I was in the music department, working with The Wiggles and Bananas in Pyjamas, helping to make their albums and videos. I worked in the children's music department, which I really loved. During that time, I was a single mum and I became really sick. I was going in and out of hospital. At the beginning, I wasn't listening to my body. I kept working and pushing myself, but my symptoms were getting worse. My hair was starting to fall out, I had hives all over my body, I was achy, I was exhausted and I lost a lot of weight. Eventually, when the symptoms were really screaming at me, I went through what I found to be a very complex medical system. I was trying to get answers and going from doctor to doctor to figure out what was wrong. I had lots of needles, scans and tests, and it took a long time. Eventually, I was diagnosed with a non-specific autoimmune problem and fibromyalgia, which is where you feel really tired and achy. I was put on a combination of medications, and those medications also came with side effects. It became hard to differentiate between the symptoms of what was going on and the side effects of the medication I was taking. I spoke to my doctor and said, "Do you think this has anything to do with my diet or my gut?" I had noticed that when I ate certain things, my symptoms would really flare up. They said, "No, nothing to do with what you're eating. It has no relevance." I asked if I could change my diet and give it a go, and they said, "Yes, certainly. It won't make a difference, but you can try." I had to leave work, which was my dream job, so I was really sad about that. But after coming in and out of hospital, I went back into my kitchen and started experimenting at home. For some reason, I knew my tummy needed gentle foods. When I was working full-time as a single parent, I had been putting ready meals in the microwave, not knowing I was reacting to MSG, preservatives and other ingredients in those meals. I went back to basics and started to discover that some of the things I was eating were making my symptoms worse. I changed my diet and started eating very real, gentle, simple foods. I documented it on a blog called superchargedfood.com. From there, I started writing, and writing about it really helped me. Social media had just started, so I began writing little blogs and putting them on Facebook. It was amazing because people from all over the world would contact me and say, "That happened to me. I was put on steroids. I blew up like the Michelin Man. I had the same symptoms as you. Then I changed my diet, my tummy got better, the hives stopped and my hair started to grow back." It was really interesting. From there, I started to write my first book. That's how it all started and how I got into health and wellness. Amy (06:22) Wow. It makes me think that many of us are brought up to believe you go to the doctor and the doctor has the answers. Different generations can have different views on this. My own parents in the UK might say, "I'll go to the doctor for a prescription," and I'll ask, "Have you considered other things, like diet?" As humans, we've been trained to want the quick fix. In some health systems, it can become, "Go and get some medication and that will fix it." But often, for people, that can be masking something deeper. Lee (07:02) Yes, I think it can. When I started looking into food and ingredients, I realised there were certain foods that gave me similar relief from symptoms to the medications I had been given. For example, things like curcumin and turmeric. The curcumin within turmeric is powerfully anti-inflammatory, and it helped a lot of the inflammation in my body without all the side effects from the medication. Then I learnt about garlic. I was exploring different ingredients and how garlic is antiviral and antibacterial. Instead of relying only on the antibiotics that were affecting my gut microbiome, I started to lean more into real foods. They really are quite powerful, and they did help. Obviously, I'm not against medication. If you need medication, I'm not against it. But for this chronic condition, I wanted to find things I could use that felt less damaging in the long run. That's how I looked at it. Amy (08:06) Your latest book, Eat to Heal, explores the connection between trauma, the nervous system and inflammation. In simple terms, what is that connection? Lee (08:18) There is a connection. I didn't learn this at the beginning. I went through years of practising clinical nutrition and studying to become a qualified clinical nutritionist. Over time, I saw more and more patients in my clinic and started to put together the link between trauma, chronic stress and the body. Trauma and chronic stress are not just emotional experiences. They can affect the body and lead to inflammation through a rise in cortisol, blood sugar dysregulation and changes in the gut. Chronic stress can affect the gut lining, the gut microbiome and the vagus nerve, which is part of the communication between the gut and the brain. These things work together and can keep your nervous system in fight or flight. You could take the best supplements in the world and eat the best food in the world, but in clinic we were noticing that people with nervous system dysregulation were not getting better. To get to the root cause, I looked at the relationship between the nervous system, the gut and the brain. Amy (09:39) When people hear the word trauma, they often think of one big life event. What do you think is misunderstood about what trauma can actually be? Lee (09:50) Trauma can be a single catastrophic event, but it can also be low-level stress from everyday things, such as relationships, work issues or other stresses. Those things can also keep your body locked in fight or flight. It can absolutely be childhood trauma, but it can also be the smaller stresses within our everyday lives. Our inner critic can also keep us locked in a fight or flight response and keep driving chronic inflammation in the body. Chronic inflammation then leads to immune dysregulation. You might notice things in your body and wonder, "Why am I so itchy after that food? Why do I feel so tired? Why can't I get up in the morning? Why is my brain foggy?" A lot of that can be driven by inflammation in the body, and that can come from chronic stress. It's all joined together. It's not one thing or one symptom. Amy (11:01) Absolutely. Even the opening line of the book says, "Tired, achy and fed up? This book is for you." I started reading it and said to my husband, "She's speaking to me." What have you seen in terms of unresolved stress and emotional experiences showing up in the body? Lee (11:23) When your nervous system is chronically activated, it can change your biochemistry. It can affect serotonin and those feel-good chemicals. It can change you biochemically, and the pathways can change as well. Vagus nerve activation and the brain-gut connection can change too. It can change your immune response, including how long you take to get better, or how your immune system is activated by certain environmental factors or foods that you're eating. You can get pro-inflammatory cytokines, which are reactions and cells that happen in the body and can build up. Your immune system can start functioning poorly and become dysregulated. You can get IBS symptoms, bloating and many other things in the body when you're under chronic stress. Amy (12:18) What do you think people get wrong about gut health? Lee (12:21) I think people assume it's normal to have diarrhoea, constipation or gas, and that these things are just part of life. But they're not normal. It's your body trying to communicate with you. It's trying to tell you something. It might be telling you that your microbiome is off. Perhaps you've been drinking too much, eating too many sweet things or eating too many processed foods, and that balance has shifted. That might be what's driving things like bloating and tiredness after eating. Listening and tuning into your body is really important. Amy (13:05) From my perspective, gut health feels as though it has become a much more popular topic over the last year or so. How have you seen the industry change? Are more people talking about it or creating products around it? Is there more understanding now than when you started out 15 years ago? Lee (13:26) One hundred percent. There is so much more awareness, which is really great. When you look at the gut, it is the engine room of the body. Everything you eat and drink goes through the gut. It's connected to so many other systems in the body, including the brain and the immune system. Seventy to eighty percent of your immune tissue is located in your gut, and ninety percent of your serotonin is manufactured in your gut. It really is the engine room. I feel like now a lot more people, even in the medical profession, understand how important gut health and the microbiome are, and how keeping the gut healthy can help your immune system work well and make you feel better. Amy (14:18) For people listening and thinking, "I am feeling stressed," where should they begin? How can somebody start to work out whether they have gut issues, whether stress is playing a role, or whether it is a combination of both? Lee (14:29) It can be complicated because there are conflicting messages out there. Firstly, if you're eating certain things and getting a reaction afterwards, perhaps keep a note or a little diary. If you eat processed foods and feel really bad afterwards, take them out of your diet for a little while and see if you feel better. That's one way of doing it. You can also see a nutritionist. There are tests you can do, such as a microbiome test, to see the state of play. You can also go to your GP and speak to them. There are lots of different avenues. It depends on the current state of your gut health. If you're losing weight, getting really bad diarrhoea, feeling exhausted and unable to get out of bed, that's a sign to see a doctor or nutritionist. Amy (15:36) What can be hard is that we can think we're eating healthily and making the right choices, but the products we're buying in the supermarket might contain ingredients that are not as good as the packaging suggests. You do some great supermarket videos where you call out certain products on the shelves. For those listening, what are some of the worst food marketing myths we've been sold? Lee (16:08) There have been a lot of them. I think the low-fat myth is a really big one because I feel it has done enormous damage to people. Low fat is not necessarily good. When fat is stripped out, refined sugars, emulsifiers and highly processed ingredients are often put in. Those things can be damaging to gut health and the lining of your gut, making it harder for you to absorb nutrients from the food you're eating. Even if you think you're eating healthily, low-fat products may contain additives that can damage gut health. New research also shows, in terms of cardiovascular disease, that it's not really about cholesterol as much as it is about inflammation. Inflammation is driving cardiovascular disease. There is new research out there. I think you're better off eating normal whole foods, rather than thinking low-fat products are healthy when they can contain additives that damage gut health. Amy (17:19) I remember, a number of years ago, my mum in the UK was part of one of the weight-loss groups where they measure things in "syns". She was told not to have avocado because avocado was a syn. I thought, "But no, Mum, it's a healthy fat." Then those same companies might also sell low-fat cereal bars or similar products. It can be difficult when you feel you're following guidance from different sources and being put on a particular path. I saw a nutritionist a number of years ago when I was getting wedding-ready, and she said that when you walk into a supermarket, you can pretty much discount the majority of the aisles. The aisles you really want to be in are the fresh fruit and vegetable section, and the proteins. If you think about it, the cereal aisle is largely processed. Lee (18:22) Yes, even fortified foods, such as fortified cereals and products with added nutrition. When you look at them, they're injecting synthetic vitamins into those foods. Synthetic vitamins are not always easy for our bodies to assimilate or process, and some people with sensitive guts can't absorb them well. Fortified foods were a really big thing a few years ago, with iron, calcium and things like that added in. But they're not necessarily better for you. Amy (19:00) It makes me wonder how food companies can get away with this. Sometimes I feel supermarkets need to do more to protect the consumer. I remember learning that ingredients are listed in order of quantity. You might pick something up and see that sugar is one of the first ingredients. That was an eye-opener for me because, at what point are we actually taught how to read labels? Lee (19:40) Becoming your own label detective is really important when it comes to the supermarket. You're absolutely right about the amounts of ingredients and the order they're listed in. I think one of the worst things is when a product says "natural flavours". Natural flavours can mask highly processed foods, ingredients and synthetic compounds. Also, when something says "heart healthy", it can still contain added sugar and other things that distract you. The front of the packet might have something like "heart healthy" written really big and bold, so you're not necessarily turning it over and reading the ingredients list. Then, when you do look, you might see maltodextrin, citric acid, polydextrose, corn syrup and similar ingredients. Those are all highly processed ingredients and not good for you. Amy (20:42) If you could cull a whole section from the supermarket, which would you remove? Which is the worst aisle? Lee (20:49) Do you know what I'd remove? This is going to be controversial, Amy. I would remove the protein bars in the health food aisle. The whole health food aisle, all the protein bars. You would think a protein bar in the health food aisle would be super healthy, but they're not. They're full of ultra-processed ingredients, such as maltodextrin, E-numbers and emulsifiers. Research now shows that certain emulsifiers can strip your gut lining. You can get little holes in your gut lining, or perforations, which can lead to food particles going into the bloodstream. That can lead to dysbiosis. They also call it leaky gut. That can lead to an immune response, which leads to inflammation, which can lead to chronic disease. It sounds crazy, but honestly, in the health food aisle, that's what I would take off the shelves. Amy (21:48) That's great to hear because I do walk down those aisles and feel sceptical. Sugar is an interesting one because now we have sugar-free products, but then there are other ingredients, whether it's stevia or other alternatives. What's your view on alternative sugars? Lee (22:09) For me, I lean towards things like raw honey, a little bit of maple syrup and coconut sugar because they're easy to digest. Coconut sugar can sometimes feed the good bugs in the gut, the prebiotics. Things like erythritol and artificial sugars are not so good. Some artificial sugars can be neurotoxic and can create neuroinflammation and brain fog. There is research out about that as well. I would go back to basics with honey, maple syrup or that kind of thing. Fruit as well. Whole fruit is always really good. Amy (22:51) What is one of the worst things we regularly see in supermarkets? Lee (22:55) I think one of the worst things is the way we market to children, particularly products that are considered natural but have a lot of artificial colours in them. Those dyes and colours can affect sensitive children. Those E-numbers and ingredients can be a problem. I would love to see healthier children's options in the supermarket. Amy (23:25) It is a minefield. As you said, it comes back to basics. Many moons ago, particularly in the UK where I grew up, you had the butcher, the fish market and the fruit shop. Obviously, supermarkets have become bigger and bigger. We've learnt to expect convenience, eating on the go and food we don't have to prepare. So we end up grabbing a lot of this other stuff. Lee (23:55) Yes. Convenient options, lunchbox foods and things like that. Marketers have understood that and created flavours, tastes and appearances designed to entice children and families to buy them. But they can be really detrimental in the long run, especially if you're eating them regularly. Obviously, now and again is fine, but if you can go a little more natural, that's always going to be better. Amy (24:21) We could talk about this topic at length, but I'm also intrigued by your wider business journey. You're originally from the UK, you've been in Australia for many years, and you've built your business across Australia, the UK and the US. How have you managed all of that? Lee (24:44) Thank goodness for the internet. The internet has made it much easier to work and has created closer relationships with other countries, in terms of how we communicate and do business overseas. Obviously, being from England, I love England. It has my heart and I have a beautiful community there, so I go back twice a year. I also head over to America sometimes. We have our products in America as well. I think the world has become smaller in a way because communication has made it easier to connect and stay connected to people. Amy (25:34) When you started with your products, did you launch them in Australia first and then take them overseas? Lee (25:42) Yes, I launched them in Australia first, then into New Zealand, England, the US and Korea. We've got a great relationship with our partners in Korea, and I've been over to Korea, which was really fun. We're expanding across the world, but genuinely, Amy, it's not just about the business for me. It's about reaching as many people as possible with this healthy message and continuing my mission. At the heart of my mission is helping to improve people's health. I want to do that affordably and within the resources people have access to. I'm really passionate about reaching as many people as possible and helping them genuinely feel better, have vibrant lives and have energy. Amy (26:53) Books like this one, and your others, make that more accessible. They provide education around the things we've been talking about, and this book also includes recipes. Out of interest, have you noticed a difference in how people in the UK, US and Australia approach gut health, food and wellness? In my novice opinion, the US seems like a very pharmaceutical-driven culture, and they have so much access to fast food. Everywhere has its own complicated health system, but how do the different markets differ in their approach? Lee (27:40) I would say, with all due respect, that I find the UK to be very healthily sceptical of the health and wellness industry. They are slowly coming around and understanding more about the impact of healthy foods. They are very open now, whereas when I first started, they were quite closed. I feel they are much more open to it now, and they do their own research. They're amazing. I do talks in London and people ask the most interesting questions. They're so clued up. I love that. In America, I feel the pharmaceutical industry has a stronghold on a lot of that industry, but Americans also love to jump onto trends, such as keto, paleo or the latest thing. At the moment, it's peptides and wellness influencers. They're really open, but they go deep into trends. I think Australians sit somewhere between the two. They're healthily sceptical, interested in trends, but also aware and inspirational. We obviously have a big outdoor lifestyle, and that's a big part of life here. As you were telling me, you take your son paddleboarding and do outdoor sports. I think, as a culture, we have more of a health and wellness aspect to who we are. Amy (29:16) I love that. It's interesting because there are differences and nuances in the different countries and what they're open to. Before we go on to some questions from our pack of cards, what's one thing you want people to know that you wish you'd known sooner on your health journey? Lee (29:33) I wish I'd known what I write about in my current book, Eat to Heal, which is that perfectionism is not always a good thing. Having the perfect diet, eating the perfect foods and taking the perfect supplements, it goes much deeper than that. Sometimes not eating something because you're afraid to eat it is probably worse than eating the thing you would have ordered. By that, I also mean the nervous system and the huge role it plays in health and wellness, as well as our thoughts and perfectionism. I used to be a perfectionist. I think I was a typical Virgo perfectionist, trying to do everything right and being self-critical. I think we do that with ourselves in health and wellness. We try to be perfect, we try to do everything well, and we look at each symptom and wonder, "Should I be doing this or that?" rather than looking at ourselves as a whole. This book ties everything together and looks at things in a more holistic way, without being so self-critical. Amy (30:49) I love that. You shared some excellent stories in the book, and one that springs to mind was someone who I think was a yoga teacher. On paper, she had the perfect diet, with lots of salads and healthy foods, but through your work with her, it sounded like her body was almost asking for nourishing, warmer, different styles of food. It is complex and so personal. We're all looking for the quick answer, the "how do I lose five kilos?" information, or the latest dieting trend. But it really is a personal conversation with your own body. Lee (31:33) Yes, I completely agree. I studied Ayurveda as well, which is the ancient medical system from India. When I was doing a lot of my research, I went to India and studied it. That is all about living in alignment with your own constitution. It's about being able to tune in on a daily basis and think, "It's cold today, maybe I'll have a warming stew," or, "I've been travelling a lot, I need some grounding foods." It can be as simple as that. Or, "We're in this season, let's try to eat a little more seasonally." Just little things like that. It doesn't have to be a complete overhaul of your diet. Amy (32:15) Fascinating. As we're all about conversations and the work that we do, has there ever been a conversation on your journey that shaped you or changed the direction of your life? Lee (32:30) That's a really good question. Let me think about that. I think the conversation I had with myself would be the one that changed my life. Not doctors, experts or researchers I've spoken to, but the conversation I had with myself while living with a chronic condition. I realised that a lot of it was coming from me, my thoughts and my nervous system, rather than all these different inputs. So I think it was the conversation I had with myself. Amy (33:05) That's lovely. Thank you for sharing. Now I'm going to ask you three questions from our pack of Really Good Conversation cards. Question number one: if you had a warning label, what would it be? Lee (33:13) If I had a warning label, it would probably be: be prepared that if you ask me to go and see a movie with you, I'm probably going to be asleep by 8:30pm. When you're on the couch with your partner or a friend, going through Netflix and trying to find something to watch, By the time we've found something, within the first ten minutes I'm asleep. Then I'll keep waking up and asking, "What happened? What happened?" So don't expect to watch a movie with me after 9pm. Amy (33:55) Brilliant. Question number two: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Lee (34:02) From my yoga and meditation learning, I think it's really important to try and live in the moment and be present as much as you can. When you're thinking too much about the past or too much about the future, you're missing out on the current moment. I live in Palm Beach and I love walking around my area. Every day, it's a non-negotiable. I go for a little walk from my house to Palm Beach and back. Sometimes I don't even take my headphones. I don't listen to anything. I'm just in the moment, listening to the birds and taking time to enjoy it. That has become the highlight of my day, and I feel it really regulates my nervous system. It's something I think is really good for health. Just a little walk without too many distractions, looking around and noticing things. Amy (34:57) Absolutely. I sometimes do the same when I go for a walk. I realise I don't need to fill my head with anything else right now. Question number three: if you had a superpower, what would it be? Lee (35:10) I think I've got a really good superpower in intuition. I have a lot of dreams, and I'm able to predict things that happen. It happens all the time. For example, I woke up this morning and said to my partner, "I was just dreaming that someone was connecting a hose pipe and it was broken, and water was gushing everywhere." He said, "That's because the guy is here fixing the broken pipe, and he's hosing downstairs." I didn't hear it or anything, so it was really weird. I think it's my intuition. Amy (35:53) Goodness, you've got a bit of a psychic talent there. The last question I love to ask all our guests is, if you could ask someone dead or alive a question, who would it be and what would you ask them? Lee (35:59) I really love poetry, and there is an old-school poet called Alice Duer Miller. She wrote a book called The White Cliffs around the Second World War. She was American and wrote it about her relationship with Britain, because she had gone over and fallen in love with a Brit. She wrote about how she, as an American, saw Britain. I think Churchill read the book at the time and really loved it. Somehow, it influenced the partnership between England and America. Wouldn't that be fascinating, to see how someone's work, writing or poetry can make a big impact on wider things in the world, including politics? I would love to interview her. Amy (37:08) I love that. Thank you for everything you've shared today. We could talk at length about this topic, but tell our listeners where they can find out more information about you, the new book and your current work. Lee (37:22) The book is called Eat to Heal, and you can buy it at any bookstore. You can also buy it from my website, superchargedfood.com. If you're interested in gut health products, you can find me at superchargeyourgut.com. I'm also on Instagram at Lee Supercharged, with a D, and on Facebook I think I'm Supercharged Food or Lee Supercharged as well. Reach out if you have any questions about gut health or anything like that. We'd love to chat. Amy (37:55) Brilliant. Thank you so much for everything you shared today. Lee (37:59) Thank you for having me. It's been really nice chatting with you. Amy (38:04) Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guest. If Really Good Conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

June 30, 2026Episode 7538 min

Live by your standards, not your excuses with Matt Formston

Summary What does it really take to stop making excuses and become someone you can trust? This conversation isn't just about blindness, sport or breaking records. Matt Formston AM joins Amy to explore identity, trust, accountability and what it really takes to stop making excuses and become someone you can trust. Guest Matt Formston AM is a world champion surfer, world champion cyclist, Paralympian, Guinness World Record holder, business leader, keynote speaker, husband and father of three. Overview Matt Formston AM has built an extraordinary life across elite sport, business and leadership. Diagnosed with macular dystrophy at the age of five, Matt was told he would lose most of his sight and face a life of limitation. Instead, he went on to become a world champion athlete, business leader and author. In this conversation, Amy and Matt explore why blindness was never his biggest fight, how bullying and anger shaped his early years, and what it took to rebuild himself through trust, accountability and what Matt calls his hard standards. They discuss the difference between genuine limitations and inherited excuses, why "standards without consequences are just wishes", and how self-trust is built one small promise at a time. Key outtakes Why blindness can be deeply isolating, and what people often misunderstand about it The difference between genuine limitations and inherited excuses How Matt's parents helped shape his "Why Not?" mindset Why standards, consistency and time are essential to building trust How one small non-negotiable helped Matt rebuild self-trust For more information: Matt Formston https://www.mattformston.com/ Pre-order the book 'Why not?' https://www.mattformston.com/books/why-not-pre-sale Transcript Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations Podcast. Today I am joined by Matt Formston. Matt is a world champion surfer, world champion cyclist, Paralympian, Guinness World Record holder, business leader, keynote speaker, husband and father of three. At the age of five, Matt was diagnosed with macular dystrophy and told he would lose most of his sight. He now has less than three per cent peripheral vision and no central vision, but has gone on to build an extraordinary life across elite sport, business and leadership. His story is featured in the Netflix documentary The Blind Sea, and his new book Why Not? explores what he calls his eight Hard Standards: the principles that helped him rebuild his life from the inside out. This conversation isn't just about blindness, sport or breaking records. It's about identity, trust, accountability and what it really takes to stop making excuses and become someone you can trust. Welcome to the podcast, Matt. Matt: Thank you, Amy. That was a bit of a mouthful, so I appreciate you getting through all that. Amy: There is certainly a lot to include in your bio, across life, work and sport, so thank you for joining me. People hear about your achievements, the Guinness World Record and the Netflix documentary, but in your book Why Not? you have the opening line: "Blindness was never my biggest fight." So we'll start there. What was? Matt: People often assume that because I'm blind, that is my biggest challenge in life. And there can be an excuse for that. But actually, I went through school and got bullied a lot. Kids would say, "How many fingers am I holding up?" I was one of the first kids in Australia to have a laptop, and I'd write stuff on my laptop, walk away, come back, and they'd highlight everything and delete all my work. It was endless bullying. It escalated to the point where, if I was running after someone, they'd run under a tree branch and duck, and I wouldn't see it, so I'd run straight into it. It was full on. Because of all that, I found that the way to resolve bullying was through physical altercation. If someone bullied me, I would end up fighting them. I learnt that if I hurt someone, they would not bully me again. So I had this learned behaviour that if you fight someone, you get an outcome. Talking never got an outcome. The teachers would say, "It's okay, Matt, they only just did this," because they didn't see the mountain of little things that built up to the absolute destruction of my psychology. I took that behaviour out of school and into early adulthood. I would get into pub fights. I played elite sport through school: representative rugby league, ice hockey, full-contact sports. Against all the odds as a blind kid, I played these sports, but then I lost sport and I basically lost my identity. I went into this spiral. I had bad relationships with women. I had bad behaviour. So my biggest challenge was getting out of that learned behaviour and thinking the whole world was out to get me. That was my biggest challenge: getting my way out of that bad behaviour and getting back to being the kid who was able to be selected in rugby league, rugby union and ice hockey over sighted kids because he put the hard work in. Amy: Gosh. So many of us listening cannot even relate to that experience. School can be hard enough, never mind with a disability and the bullying as well. What do you think most people misunderstand about blindness? Matt: There are so many things, but one thing I would say is that blindness is a very isolating disability. For example, if you go into a pub environment and it's loud, most sighted people start lip-reading without realising they're doing it. If you go into a loud environment one day, put your hand over your mouth and try to communicate with your friends. You'll realise how much you're using your eyes to lip-read. I'm not able to use that skill, so I go into a pub environment and I'm isolated. I'm there by myself. At school, if my mates left the classroom and the teacher said, "Matt, can you just stay back for a bit to make sure you understood the lesson?", they were actually isolating me. I would never find my friends at lunch and I'd spend lunch by myself. Blindness creates a lot of isolation. Obviously, you can't drive, so you're not able to get to places. It really creates a lot of isolation. The other thing I'd say is to do with any sensory disability. People say, "When you lose one sense, your others get stronger." I'm sure you've heard that phrase. Amy: I have, yes. Matt: Because of the amount of times I've told my story now, in interviews and media, I've worked out my take on it. I've spoken to doctors about this and I believe it's accurate. It's not that the sense gets better; it's that your ability to capture the data gets better. You live in a visual world where most of the data you trust, you see with your eyes. That data is supported by things you hear, smell and sense in other ways. I'm not able to trust my eyes, so I don't trust that data. I use data from my ears, for example. I can hear in a courtyard, or I can hear things that will tell me where a certain type of food is. Then I can use my nose to smell and verify that that's what it is. I can smell a chemist. The reason I know my hearing definitely isn't better is because I'm a husband, and I'll always not hear my wife when she asks me to unpack the dishwasher. Amy: I think that's a common husband trait. Matt: Exactly. But it's not about the hearing. It's more about the data not being captured. So the misconception is that when you lose one sense, the others get better. I don't think they do. You just get better at capturing data from those other senses. Amy: That makes a lot of sense. You're tuning into it more and verifying if that's a trustworthy source or not. You were told from a young age that there were things you wouldn't be able to do. How did you learn the difference between a genuine limitation and an inherited excuse? Matt: This is where I have to give credit to my parents. At the age of five, my parents were told at Sydney Eye Hospital by a professor, one of the heads of ophthalmology in Australia, that I was going to go blind. I had full vision until I was five, we believe. They were basically told that the son they had all these aspirations for — getting married, having a job, playing sport — that was all gone. He won't be able to play sport. He won't really get an education. He'll never get a good job. He won't have many friends in life. That was the prognosis. My parents believed the diagnosis: yes, he is going to go blind. But they didn't believe the prognosis. They never told me all that. They protected me from that information. When discrimination happened behind the scenes with my parents, they didn't tell me, "We've been told you can't do this." They just said, "Get on with it. Go and do this." They would deal with the "you're not welcome" conversation until they got to, "Okay, we'll let him have a crack." In the first rugby league team I played on, parents were saying, "You're bad parents for putting your child with a disability in harm's way," rather than, "You're great parents for giving him an opportunity." The other part is that we were brought up in a household where we weren't allowed to use the word "can't". That's where the name of my book, Why Not?, comes from. A lot of people say, "My dad said that too — there's no such thing as can't." But my dad didn't stop there. He would say, "Why not?" It was the worst idea you could ever have to say, "I can't do my homework," or "I can't do something," to my dad, because he would say, "Why not?" And he would keep asking. "Explain more. Explain more." As you start explaining your "can't", you actually start explaining the solution. Then he'd say, "Right, so it's not a 'can't' problem. It's an 'I'm not able to do this yet' problem, or 'I don't have this capacity yet', or 'I need X to help me get to this.'" Then he'd say, "Okay, you've now found what you need to do, so go and do it." Amy: That is amazing. Credit to your parents, because what the medical professionals were saying was a limiting prognosis. That can be such a big problem for people who go through some sort of diagnosis in their lives: the mindset can limit people immediately. Whereas what your father said gave you a different foundation. I remember being told, "There's no such thing as can't," but I don't know how much I was probed beyond that. It probably stopped there, and you were still left thinking, "I can't." Matt: Exactly. How do you get from there to doing it? I think it's the "why not?" part that gets you to the conversation and to the point of saying, "This is my plan now." You've got a plan of how to get there, as opposed to being told you need a miracle to go from "I can't" to "I can." Amy: I love that. I know we touched on this before — you've got three children and I've got a four-and-a-half-year-old as well. I'm trying to instil that mindset in him when I ask him to do something and he says no or that he can't help. I'm trying to get him involved and ask, "What can we do to help you do the thing? Have a go first, and then we'll help you." You share in the book about standards. What were the private standards behind all these public achievements? Matt: There are eight standards, so to reel them all off is a bit tricky. But one thing I'll say is that one of the standards is literally standards. If you talk about a business, for example, you've got values on the wall. Everyone's got their three values or five values. People would probably call them their standards as well. I would challenge that. My definition of a standard is something that actually has a consequence. If it doesn't have a consequence when you don't adhere to it, then it's not a standard. It's a wish. My challenge to businesses is: if it's really a cultural standard, if that's what you say your values are, then if people don't adhere to those, there needs to be a consequence. Otherwise, you're telling the market something that you're not being consistent about. That builds into one of my other standards: trust. I believe everything I've done in sport and business comes back to trust. Especially in an era of AI, where we don't trust our AIs because it always feels like they're just going to tell us what we want to hear. It comes back to this formula that I've built, which is: Standards × Consistency × Time. The standard has to be something that has a consequence. Then you need to do it consistently, showing people and showing yourself that you do it consistently. Then, over time, that builds trust. You can have self-trust, team trust, leadership trust, customer trust. They all apply to the same formula. Amy: What do you think breaks trust faster than people realise? Matt: Not adhering to that formula. If you don't have the standards, or people don't actually know what the standard is, then people don't know what you stand for. Think about global politics at the moment. No one knows what these people stand for because they change their mind every two minutes. Then that comes back to consistency. You might have a standard, but if you're not consistent with it, or if you change it with different people, that will build distrust. In leadership, if you're not treating your team the same way and people are treated differently, that will build distrust. Amy: I guess you can come at the concept of trust from business, family and sport, because in your sporting career you are often relying on other people to be your eyesight. How do you get to a space of giving that total trust to somebody? Matt: It comes back to that formula every time. They've shown me they're going to hit a standard, and they're going to do it consistently over a certain amount of time. Then I know I can trust them. At a sporting level, I got towed into a 51-foot wave. It's a five-storey building of water, and I can't see the wave. Most people who go to Nazaré in Portugal, where the biggest waves in the world are and the records are set, have all these gates before they go. They can look at YouTube and say, "I don't want any part of that." If they get through that gate, they fly to Portugal and stand on the headland, look at the wave and hear the power of the waves smashing against the cliff. That's another gate. If they go through that gate, they go out on the jet ski and can see it from the water. They can still say yes or no. There are all these gates for sighted people. I don't have those gates. I have to use trust with my team. I can't trust my eyes. I can't use that data. The data has to come through my team telling me what it is. Then I get towed into the wave, and my team blows a whistle. I have to trust that when they blow that whistle, they have put me in the right spot, and I drop down a five-storey wall of water. If you're talking about trust, I don't know that there are many things in the world that require much more trust. People die there. Three weeks after I was there, someone died surfing a 30-foot wave. I was on 50-foot waves and I'm blind. There are consequences. But I believe if you build capability and trust in your team, anything is achievable. But you need to build it with the right people, and you need clear standards and consistency. Amy: Communication must be a huge part of this too. If a whistle gets blown, that has to hit at exactly the right moment. It must be a lot of pressure on the other people as well. Matt: It is. And the pressure goes both ways. If I haven't done the training and I die, the guys towing me are the best big wave surfers in the world. We're talking about Dylan Longbottom and Lucas Chumbo. They're literally the best guys in the world. If they kill the blind guy, the world media had already said I was going to die. It's the same narrative, the same voice that told my parents when I was five that he can't do life, he's not going to get a job, he won't play sport, he won't have many friends. The world media said, "He will die at Nazaré. Blind guy can't do this." When I was trying to play rugby league, the mothers were saying my mum was a bad mother because she let me play sport. It's the same voice all the time saying, "He can't. He can't. He can't." But I've built enough trust in myself because I've shown myself that if I have the right standards and I do it consistently, I'll execute. So when the world says I can't now, I just laugh and go, "Well, you're not the expert. I'm the expert in what I'm doing." The other flip side is, if I die there and I haven't built the capacity to do it, then that affects my team. It required me doing a lot of work. I can hold my breath for six minutes. It takes a lot of physical capacity to do that. If my team didn't think I had the capability to do it, they wouldn't do it, because if I die there, they lose their livelihood. They're getting paid by Red Bull and other big brands to do their job. They're not going to get re-signed next year if they kill the blind guy. It was the same with my cycling career. I was on a tandem. If I lean the wrong way, we both die. So the trust is not just about me trusting my team. It's about them trusting me to have the capability to do the things we're doing as well. Amy: With everything you have set out to achieve in life, both in your corporate career and your sporting careers, has a lot of it been driven by a desire to prove people wrong? Matt: Yes, for sure. There's a pivotal part in the book where I talk about how the main thing that changed my life, when I was on that bad path, was that I really wanted to get married. I was having all these failed relationships and I was blaming the other person. "She did this, she did that." You can always blame somebody else. I had just had a failed relationship. On paper, everything looked good. I was a sales director, I had property in Sydney, and on paper everything looked lovely. But I wasn't happy. I didn't think I was thriving. So I wrote down a list of 12 things I wanted in a wife. Even though I can't see it, I just wrote these things on a piece of paper. Then I realised that, out of the 12 things, I wasn't six of them. So it was unreasonable for me to want someone to have all those things if I didn't have them. Then I rebuilt myself with the standards that are in the book. From that point on, I stopped trying to prove to the world that I could do things. It wasn't about them anymore. It became about me and what I wanted to achieve. Since I changed that mindset, now I do things to contribute. I've rewired everything from having to prove people wrong to saying, "This is something I want to do." Now I get to do all these things. I'm on boards, I'm on federal government advisory committees, I'm an executive, and I do all these different things at the same time because I've built that capacity. The key thing for me now is that I get to add value, because I love being part of a team. Whatever team I'm in, I know how I add value and what I don't do so well. I know what I do really well, and I make sure I add value before moving on to the next thing. It's the same as when I was playing rugby league or ice hockey. What's my position in this team? How does that add value? Then I do that well. Amy: When you had that realisation and started doing that self-reflection work, did you have external mentors or coaches, or was it something you had to do alone? Matt: It was just me. It was all me. I was so independent and so scared of being seen as a failure that I wouldn't let anyone else give me guidance up until that point. A lot of blind people are fiercely independent, almost independent despite themselves. I still am now. I have found some amazing mentors after that point, but up until then, it was just me. The way it started was with the standards piece. The first standard I held was that I put a chin-up bar in my doorway. I wasn't allowed to walk in or out of that door in my bedroom without doing 10 chin-ups. If I'd gone out to work in the morning and left my keys in my bedroom, I would do 10 chin-ups on the way in, get the keys, and do 10 chin-ups on the way out. That was the first standard. I started getting out of bed at the same time and having these black-and-white standards that I wasn't allowed to budge on. That was how I built trust in myself. Once I built trust in myself, I started building it with teammates. Then with leadership. It kept expanding. Now I've got this really fulfilled life where I get to be a dad, a leader and an athlete. We haven't talked about freediving yet, but my current goal is to set a world record in freediving either later this year or early next year. Once you implement these standards in your life, even though it's hard work, it becomes easy. Amy: The reward must feel amazing when you achieve those goals and challenges you set yourself. We touched on this before: I know I'm great with external accountability. If I've had a PT or worked with coaches, when I know that appointment is coming up, I will do the work. Last year I was learning to play golf, and I knew at the next lesson the coach would ask who had practised, so I was at the driving range the night before. I can identify in myself that I'm good with accountability to others, but how do you build that personal accountability within yourself? Matt: In business, you would have a strategy. A one-year strategy or a five-year strategy. I would say it's very important to have a five-year strategy. Across all the strategies you have, you probably don't go back to your personal five-year plan and ask how that plugs into the strategy — whether that's a fitness goal, business goal or whatever it is. Amy: Yes. I'm great at writing them, and then they stay in Google Drive and I forget to look at them because I get too busy. Matt: So flip it. Write a five-year strategy for you as a person. Then, instead of looking at the business first, look at how what you're doing externally plugs into that. You still need to do those things, but ask: is this allocating an appropriate amount of time to each piece? That might sound selfish, but it's not really. If you do well in everything you do, then you're being selfless because you're helping your teams achieve. For me, it's about priorities. The thing that is the biggest priority gets the biggest chunk of time. If at the moment that is to get physically fit, that's the priority. Everyone will have challenges in life. We've all got system issues with work and different problems. But as soon as you have a health problem, you have no other problem. That is your problem. If being healthy and happy needs to happen for me to be more successful in other areas and contribute better to my team, then that should become the priority. You allocate the appropriate amount of time to it and you don't negotiate on it. It becomes one of those standards that is not negotiable. That will help you achieve better, be happier and healthier, and have more energy in other areas. Then you'll be more productive, and you won't have to spend as much time in those areas because you're more productive. Amy: For those listening who feel like they are making excuses, or know that their standards have slipped, what would you say is the first honest step to take? Matt: Pick one standard. For me, it was the chin-up bar. Pick one thing you know you are letting slip and don't let that slip again. Just pick one thing. If you try to do all of them at once, it's too hard. Pick one thing, do that for a couple of weeks, and show yourself you can do it. That's building self-trust. If you know you've let your standards slip, they are your personal standards. If you're not even holding your own personal standards, how can you expect others to hold theirs? How can you hold standards as a team? How can you hold standards as a leader? It's showing yourself that you can trust yourself because you're going to hold your standards. Once you can do that, you can do everything else better. Amy: I love that. I can be guilty of going from zero to hero and trying to do all the things at once. It might last a few weeks or a couple of months, then things get in the way. Matt: Just do one thing at a time. In the movie I've got on Netflix, one of the things I say at the end of the film is: just do one thing and do that well. That's what I think I've become very good at: doing one thing at a time and doing that really well. That's how I'm able to wear so many different hats. The other thing I'd say is that we talk a lot about identity being a fixed thing. We think that to be authentic, you have to have one identity. I think that's a flawed concept. I think you have to have one set of values and one set of standards, but how they come out in your different identities will look different. Me as an executive looks different to me as a dad. If I'm with my mates in a pub and we're mucking around, that personality in the boardroom is not going to add value to that environment. We are all different people. So why not identify how we turn up differently in different environments and lean into that? Work out how you turn up differently and amplify that, rather than dulling it down and trying to be the same person everywhere. Don't change your values. Don't change your standards. Just change how you present. Amy: That's brilliant. Before we go on to some of our Really Good Conversations questions, I wanted to ask: as you revisited your story to write this book, how did that feel? Matt: It was hard. There was crying. There were tears. One of the first things in the book, in the first chapter, is called "Rock Hard, Marshmallow Soft". I've surfed 50-foot waves, broken world records in cycling, and I'm a blind guy who used to fight in pubs. I don't think anyone can say I'm physically soft. I'm probably as hard as a man can get physically. But emotionally, I used to be really hard too. One of the things I learnt was to become emotionally soft. I can be rock hard, but I can also be emotionally soft. I think that's a trait more men should have. But I think teaching all men to be soft across the board is not helping society. We need more hard men, but men who can also be soft when they need to be. That's one of the things I learnt going through the book: how I've become the man who is comfortable being as hard as you can be in a physical environment, but also really soft with my children and soft with my teams when I need to be. It was a journey. From my test readers, I know the first eight chapters are hard reading. My life was hard. There were a lot of really hard things I went through. Readers have said to me, "It's really hard." And I was like, "Yeah, but you're only reading about it. I had to live through it." So yes, it was a journey. Amy: Thank you for sharing that journey and for putting the book together. So many of us cannot relate to the journey you've been on, from the disability to the record-breaking achievements, the corporate job and family life. It's fascinating to learn from people like yourself. One question I've been asking people this year is: can you recall a conversation that has profoundly changed the direction of your life? Matt: I don't know if it changed the direction of my life, but it definitely would have changed the direction of my life. It was a conversation I had early in my career. I was on an escalation with a customer and I lost my patience a bit with them. Afterwards, a senior leader who had overheard the conversation pulled me aside and said, "The way you treated that person then — was it okay?" I said, "Well, I followed the process." He said, "That's fine. You followed the process. But did you treat them in the way that you should have?" I was all about what she did and what she said. I was making it about them, not about me. Standard excuse behaviour. He said, "Next time you're in a situation like that, I want you to think about that person as your mother or your sister." At the time, I didn't have children, but he said if I had children, think about them. That really reframed things for me. Every time I had a heated discussion with somebody from that point on, I reflected back on that. I thought, "Is this the way I would want someone to treat my mother, my sister or someone I care about?" It changed the trajectory of my career and the way I treated people. I moved away from the perspective of thinking, "They should be doing this because I expect them to," and it allowed me to be more patient and empathetic. One of the standards in my book is that empathy is a superpower in leadership. That is something I do really well now. I have empathy for my teams and understand where they're coming from. I spend time finding out what they do. That superpower I have as a leader came from that conversation almost 20 years ago. Amy: That is such a good reminder. So much of what we see in the world, whether it's comments on social media or how people speak to each other, makes you wonder: would you speak to a relative like that? They'd probably say no. I'm going to ask you three questions from our Really Good Conversations cards. Question number one: if you had a warning label, what would it say? Matt: Warning: gives very direct, strong feedback. Amy: I love that. Question number two: what is the biggest misconception people have about you? Matt: That blindness is my biggest challenge. We've already gone over it, but I think it can't be understated. Amy: Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Matt: You can achieve so much more than you think. It's such a cliché statement, but you really can. My life proves that we are all pretty lazy. We think we have big goals, but they're pretty small. So set bigger goals than what you think is possible. I say to my kids that my parents brought me up with "no such thing as can't", and obviously I do the same thing with them. My son is 12 now. When he was 10, he came into the room and was trying to learn how to do a Rubik's Cube. He was frustrated and said, "Dad, there is such a thing as can't." He didn't say it about the Rubik's Cube. He said, "I can't fly to the moon with my arms." I said, "Mate, I think you can. If you're 10 years old and you really think that's your life purpose, to fly to the moon with your arms, and you're myopic about it, nothing else gets in the way, and you work hard every day, you'll build relationships, build technology, find ways of getting revenue, and do all the things someone with a really strong goal does. You'll either learn to fly to the moon with your arms by the time you end your career, or you'll have created so much value in the wake of that goal that it will have been a worthwhile life." He didn't like the answer to that question, but I really think we need to set bigger goals. And I think if he really wanted to fly to the moon with his arms, he could probably do it with technology. He did end up learning to do the Rubik's Cube, by the way. He got down to about 18 seconds, then gave up and moved on to something else. Amy: I love that. Maybe he had the dopamine hit of finally achieving it, and then the exhaustion of thinking, "Thank goodness that's over." He probably kept going just to show you he could do it because you said it was possible. I don't know if I've ever completed a Rubik's Cube myself. I think back in the day, we just peeled the stickers off and put them on the other side. The last question I love to ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Matt: I thought about this before I came on, and this is going to be a very controversial answer, I think. I would go back to someone like Genghis Khan and ask him what standards he believed helped him manage and lead an army of that size, and keep everything together. We can take the values aside and all the bad things that happened aside. From a leader's perspective, if you could ask, "What are the top standards that helped you manage that army?", I think we could bring that back into modern society. I think we've lost our way from a standards perspective. To take lessons from great leaders who were able to do things that are hard to even imagine — the amount of cultural leadership, physical dominance and emotional leadership required to do something of that nature — would be fascinating. Amy: That is a fascinating answer. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything you have shared in this conversation today. We could have gone in so many directions and covered so many topics, but I was really keen to explore more of your journey and the "Why Not?" philosophy. I think that is a good reminder to leave everybody with. Before we finish, tell our listeners where they can find out more about you, the book, and what's on the horizon for you. You touched on freediving earlier, so give us a little more information for people who would like to find out more. Matt: You can follow me everywhere at Matt Formston. LinkedIn, Instagram, all the different socials, and mattformston.com. The book, Why Not?, should be out on 1 August, and on audiobook as well. There are things like the freediving in there too. I didn't think it was possible for me to ever dive through a shipwreck because I can't see it. There's a story in the book about cycling, big-wave surfing and my four world titles in surfing. One of the last stories is me diving through a World War II shipwreck. My dive coach is holding the front of my blind cane, which I use on land, and I'm holding the back. We swim down 60 feet underwater on a single breath through a shipwreck. There are lots of stories and lots of goals. By the end of this year or early next year, I want to set a world record in freediving for depth. My biggest goal, though, and the thing that will make me feel my life has been worthwhile, is if my children become good people. I have lots of different clients I coach, businesses I talk to and keynote stages I stand on, but there's no more important client that I have than my three children. I hope they become good people one day. That will mean all the lessons and standards I've built are worthwhile. Amy: That's beautiful. Thank you so much for everything today. Thank you for your time, and best of luck with that next challenging goal later this year. Matt: Thank you so much.

June 16, 2026Episode 7411 min

What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? In this special compilation episode, Amy shares how a family loss helped inspire Really Good Conversations and why it is so important to ask meaningful questions while we still have the opportunity. Hear the varied responses from this year's podcast guests as they reflect on the lessons, values and advice they hope future generations will carry forward. It may leave you considering the wisdom you have received, the stories you still want to hear and the answer you would give yourself. Key takeaways: Why meaningful questions can unlock stories that may otherwise go untold The importance of learning from people across different generations Wisdom and life lessons from this year's podcast guests Why we should not wait to ask those closest to us about their experiences A question to consider and share with your own friends and family Guests include: Maz Farrelly Isiah McKimmie Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries Andrew Sloan Phillip di Bella Maku Fenaroli Kylee Dennis Dara Simkin Nova Eden Trancript: Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I'm going to invite you to consider one question: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? It is a question from our first edition pack of Really Good Conversations cards, and one I have been asking all of our podcast guests this year. It has been fascinating to hear the different answers people have shared, so in this special compilation episode, I'm bringing those responses together. This is a shorter episode, but it is centred around a question that has been on my mind quite a lot recently. I have seen a growing amount of content online, particularly on social media, where people stop strangers in the street and ask them questions such as what advice they would give to their younger selves, what they would do differently if they were in their twenties again, or whether they have any regrets. It is amazing to hear the responses from people of different ages, backgrounds and walks of life. Seeing these conversations has reminded me why we started Really Good Conversations in the first place. Many of you will already know our story, but for those who do not, the idea began after Alex's grandad passed away in 2019. He was in his nineties, from the north of England, lived in Leeds and had served during the war. After he passed away, we found ourselves talking about how, when older generations are no longer with us, we lose the opportunity to ask them questions, hear their stories and learn from their experiences. For Alex in particular, it raised the question of how much he had ever really asked his grandad. It made us realise how easily we can move through life without having these deeper conversations with our friends and families. At different stages of life, we naturally have different priorities. When you are a teenager, you often want to spend most of your time with your friends rather than your parents or grandparents. Then, perhaps, you go to university, move away, travel or begin meeting people from different parts of the world. We were fortunate enough to travel and meet people from all sorts of places. It was incredible to hear their stories and learn about their lives. But sometimes, while we are busy learning about new people, we do not always take the opportunity to hear the stories of those closest to us. My great-grandad started our family business in 1920, and I remember wondering what it must have been like to start a business at that time compared with today. Why did he start it? What was he hoping to achieve? I asked my dad, who has been involved in the business himself since he was ten years old, whether he had ever asked his grandad those questions. He said no. I think that is often the case. These conversations do not always arise naturally. Sometimes, we need to make a conscious effort to ask. That is why I wanted to share this episode now, in the middle of the year, and bring together the wisdom our guests have shared so far. It is clearly a topic that is resonating with a lot of people, and I would encourage you to ask this question of the older people in your own family. But I would also invite you to consider your own answer. What wisdom would you want to pass on? Right now, we are in what is sometimes called the sandwich generation, with young children on one side and ageing parents on the other. The reality is that we can learn from every generation around us, from young children through to those who have lived long and varied lives. I hope you enjoy hearing how our guests answered this question, and I would love to know what your answer would be too.

June 2, 2026Episode 7334 min

Why Children Need An Analogue Childhood

Summary What's disappearing from childhood & why children need an analogue childhood in a digital world In this episode, Amy speaks with Nova Eden from One Collective Power and the Smartphone Free Childhood movement about how smartphones, social media, iPads, EdTech and AI are reshaping modern childhood. They explore what children may be losing to screens, from boredom and play to imagination, attention and real-world connection, and share practical ways families can build healthier digital habits at home. Guest Nova Eden is a leadership and systems change advocate, founder of One Collective Power, and a campaigner with the Smartphone Free Childhood movement. Her work focuses on children's wellbeing, digital habits, smartphone-free schools and parenting in the digital age. Nova works with parents, schools, organisations and policymakers to help create healthier relationships with technology, and has presented her work in Parliament as part of the growing conversation around children, smartphones, social media and digital wellbeing. Overview Smartphones, social media and digital devices are now woven into childhood, family life and education. But did we move too quickly? In this conversation, Amy and Nova Eden explore the impact of screens on children's wellbeing, development, attention and relationships. Nova shares the personal moment that led her into this work, why she believes children are living through a global digital experiment, and how parents, schools and policymakers can start to rethink the role technology plays in modern childhood. The conversation covers smartphone-free schools, EdTech, early years screen use, social media safety, dopamine, sleep, boredom, analogue childhood and the emerging risks of AI. It is a thoughtful and practical discussion for parents, educators and anyone interested in what children need to thrive in the digital age. Key Outtakes • Why children are living through a digital experiment • What screens are replacing in childhood • Why boredom, play and imagination still matter • Why "digital literacy" isn't the same as digital wellbeing • Simple ways families can build healthier screen habits • Why AI may change the conversation again More Information Collective Power https://onecollectivepower.co.uk/ Smartphone Free Childhood https://www.smartphonefreechildhood.org/ Transcript Amy Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today, I am joined by Nova Eden, who has been at the centre of one of the biggest conversations facing parents right now: children, technology and modern childhood. Through her work with One Collective Power and the Smartphone Free Childhood movement, Nova has been working with parents, schools and policymakers to rethink how and when children engage with smartphones, social media and digital life. This isn't just about screen time. It's about what kind of childhood we're designing and what role we as adults, parents and educators need to play in that. Welcome to the podcast, Nova. Nova Thank you so much, Amy. It's lovely to be here this morning. Amy Even before we've hit record, we have already been talking about so many elements of this. It's been a busy year in the UK as well with this topic of conversation around social media, phones and bans. But what I first wanted to ask you was how you got into this space of digital awareness, digital wellness, education, and the use of devices for children and in education. Nova I've always worked with children, and my speciality has been children's mental health and wellbeing. A few years ago, my eldest son came to me and said, "Mum, everyone's getting a smartphone. I'm the only one without a phone." Of course, like every parent, I felt that pressure to conform to the social norm of giving my son a smartphone. I was worried about him being socially isolated during that crucial stage of his development. So I gave in to the peer pressure and realised very quickly I had made a mistake, because I saw him change. I saw that he didn't want to play anymore. All he wanted to do was look at his phone. Around the same time, I was having conversations with parents and friends, and everybody kept saying, "These phones and kids, it's such a nightmare." I started hearing all these horror stories about this child sending this naked picture or that child being bullied. I started hearing one too many awful stories about what was happening with phones, with kids, online. It was around the time when I read an article about a young girl called Molly Russell, who sadly and tragically took her own life because she was pushed harmful content into her newsfeed. So I realised that I wanted to do something about it and I really wanted to get involved. It was just when the Smartphone Free Childhood campaign first took off. I was very aware that I wanted to make different decisions with my younger children, and I wanted to help other parents really understand what they were getting themselves in for. Years ago, when I first started campaigning, there wasn't the awareness that there is today. This wasn't a big national conversation. So I was very passionate that I wanted to protect other parents and other children, and it snowballed. It became a big national campaign very quickly with Smartphone Free Childhood. It became a big conversation. I started working with head teachers and schools, and really trying to raise awareness. I remember people telling me back then, "Nothing's going to change." I'm delighted to say they were wrong. Things have changed. I've presented my work in Parliament, in Scottish Parliament and with the Department for Education. People really are listening. We now have legislation to make all schools smartphone-free here in the UK, and we are working towards raising the age for social media for under-16s, which is a fantastic step. There's still a lot of work to do, but we are definitely moving in the right direction. Amy Fantastic. Do you feel it is a bit like we've been living through, and still are in, a social experiment with all of this? Perhaps at the beginning, we adopted social media and phones before anyone really understood the consequences. Nova Absolutely. Our children and Gen Z are living through an experiment. I think it's time for us to advocate that our children are not the test subjects anymore. We now know the harm that's being done to children via smartphones, social media and excessive screen time. It's time for meaningful, accelerated change. We need to start challenging these norms that are no longer serving our children, and we need to make real behaviour change. We need education. We need policymakers to step up and implement legislation. Parents are struggling and children are suffering, and this can't continue. I think that not only is this now a big national conversation, it is a global movement. Amy Absolutely. As you know, I'm sitting here in Australia, originally from the UK. Australia went ahead with the social media ban. I think the jury is still out on the effectiveness of these things because, as we've touched on before, children are tech savvy these days and they sometimes find ways around these mechanics. But when we talk about screen time, is it no longer actually just about screen time, but also what else these children are missing out on in their childhood? Nova Yes, that's exactly right. I think there has been some negative press about what Australia is doing not working. But actually, we do know that it's working. It's just going to take a long time to see the results. We know that five million children have come off social media. We know that book sales have increased, which is brilliant and exactly what we want. Of course, the tech companies are making it very easy for these children to get around it. But what we really need to look at is not just the fact that these children are having excessive screen time, but what they're missing out on. We know they are no longer outside as much as they used to be. They're not socialising face to face as much as they used to be. It's the interactions and healthy activities that they need at this critical stage in their development. I think if we are going to tackle screen time in our teenagers, we need to look at what's happening in the early years, because digital wellness and healthier digital habits need to start in those early years. We've just had some recent government guidelines come out in the UK where they are saying that under-two-year-olds shouldn't have screen time, which I completely agree with. As little screen time as possible for under-fives, an hour a day, is what we should be aiming for. But I think it should be more than that. I think we should be advocating for no iPads for under-fives. We now know that excessive interactive screen time in the early years is causing developmental delays and speech and language delays. We know that children who have excessive screen time in the early years often find it more difficult to regulate their emotions. It's about what they're missing, because if a child has a choice between a toy and a screen, the screen will always win. What they need at that crucial stage in their development is free play, time, space, creativity and imagination. That's what we're really lacking. There's been a sharp rise in children going to school not being able to read, and not having basic life skills. So we need to raise awareness. I think everybody knows about smartphones and social media now, but we need to really look at iPads. If Steve Jobs, who was instrumental in creating iPads, didn't give them to his own children, we need to reconsider why we are handing out iPads to our young children. Amy Absolutely. That totally hits a nerve when you hear that about Steve Jobs. Everything you're saying resonates because we've got a four-and-a-half-year-old and, in his life, we had at times succumbed to him having the phone here or there and watching things. At times, you could then see that change in behaviour. When you came to take the device off him, it would be like, right, we need to stamp this out. One trick we did play, bless him, was when we did the long-haul flight back from the UK to Australia. Then we said, "The iPad doesn't work in Australia." That was the end of that. It was full cold turkey. We had been travelling around in the UK and having the device in the car. It's not until we continue to hear from people like yourself, have these conversations, listen to some of the research coming out, and speak to people like a child psychologist I had on the podcast about a year ago, who equally highlighted that children under five really shouldn't be having any form of screen devices, that it becomes mind-blowing to hear. I think a lot of people listening will also feel, "Crikey, we've all slipped into using them at one time or another." What's the thinking when we come into education? It's wild to think that when we were all at school, it was pen and paper, and now people obviously have devices. Is there the thinking that technology in education is automatically going to be better for learning? Nova I think we've been sold this idea that more technology equals better education, but EdTech is a billion-dollar industry which has crept into our schools. We now have over two decades of research to show that children actually learn better and retain information more when they are learning from books and paper rather than screens. We know there is a connection between their brain and their hand. Handwriting activates thinking in ways that screens don't. So what we're losing is deep thinking and focused attention. There is a massive problem with the attention economy at the moment, and children are having fragmented attention spans because of what they're watching and the type of content. So it's really important that we look at the quality of what our children are watching, but also what's happening with EdTech and what's happening to their attention spans. We know that in one hour of a child being on a device, whether it's an iPad or a laptop for school purposes, up to 38 minutes will be spent off task. So we're losing that ability to learn deeply. We know that the best thing to prepare our children for a digital future is actually an analogue childhood. Having that time to learn through pens and paper, human interaction and socialising: these are the key skills that screens can't teach them. More technology early on doesn't mean better education. We now have a significant amount of research and evidence to show that it's actually detrimental to their learning. Amy Yeah, gosh. Do you think we're going to be able to pull it back? Even for us adults, we're guilty of being on our phones, whether we're scrolling through content or having our attention spans hijacked. It's happening across all ages. But when we think about the analogue childhood, are we going to be able to go back in time almost? It's like we need to reset some of those human skills. Nova Well, I hope so. I hope that by raising awareness, which is now happening globally, with lots of people campaigning and supportive MPs, politicians and head teachers, we can. I think this is a societal problem and every single one of us has a part to play. There's no one solution. We have to educate children. We have to educate parents around digital wellness and healthier digital habits, and we need to have stricter boundaries. We need smartphone-free schools. We need to help parents who are struggling with the peer pressure to get those phones and social media at such a young age. I think it's going to take a long time, but implementing a minimum age for social media is a great place to start, because eventually it will become normal, just like we have a minimum age for smoking, drinking and driving. It's not going to be an overnight fix. We need to hold these tech companies and platforms accountable. At the same time, we have to take a holistic approach and we all need to do it together as parents, as leaders and as educators to make real change for the next generation of children. Amy We are both parents ourselves and we're living through this. Across the ages of your children, you have quite the broad spectrum. You've seen this unfold at the different milestones and ages that children go through. What is the biggest misconception adults still have about children, smartphones and social media? Nova I think the fact that some adults think we can teach children how to use social media safely is one of the biggest misconceptions. At the moment, these platforms are not a safe place for children. They are adult products that have been designed for adults. Whilst we know that tech companies are pushing dangerous and harmful content into our children's newsfeeds, and whilst we know they are creating dangerous algorithms for our children and pushing content that we as parents may not see, but these young teenagers are seeing, you cannot teach young children to use that safely. So we have to delay as long as possible while these platforms are not safe. We have to delay smartphones. We have to delay social media. In the meantime, while our children are going through this stage of development in puberty, when they're worried about what everybody else is thinking, we have to make sure they are not feeling like their value and worth is based on what everybody else thinks about them. That's what social media does. It's quantifying how popular you are, how pretty you are or how good your holiday is. You're never going to win on social media because there's always going to be someone who has more friends or who is more popular. It's an incredibly unhealthy environment and an unhealthy place for children to be. So I think it's really about raising awareness that, at the moment, whilst these products are not safe, we can't teach children to use them safely. This isn't a balanced conversation where we're being too strict. We know it's a dangerous product. Delaying it and giving children more time in their childhood, where they're outside, playing and doing all the healthy activities they need, is the most important thing we can do. Hopefully, eventually, once they're a little bit older, they will be able to handle these platforms and then we can start giving them education on how to use them, how to implement them and how to bring them into a family slowly, one stage at a time and one platform at a time. An 11-year-old's brain is very different to a 16-year-old's. They still have a lot to learn because their prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that helps to regulate emotions and make good decisions, doesn't fully develop until they're in their twenties. As you say, if we as adults are all struggling with our phones, which we are, if we're honest, then these young children with a prefrontal cortex that is not fully developed find it almost impossible to self-regulate. Amy Absolutely. With all of this talk, I often think back to when I got a mobile phone. Back in those days it was just a Nokia with Snake on it, text messages and phone calls. I remember I got the phone because my mum wanted to get me off the house phone, because at that time you were on the phone at night. I think I could have been 14 or 15 at the time. But I do remember at bedtime having the debate with Mum. I'd still be texting with friends and Mum was like, "Right, put it out in the hallway. Go to bed." I remember some of the arguments we would have about that, and it's almost embarrassing and cringe-inducing to think of it now. When I think that all that phone had on it was the ability to send text messages, maybe play Snake and make phone calls, the thought of a child who is 14, 15 or younger having access to even more, whether it's interesting things, engaging things, other ways of communicating with real people or just content, until they're going to sleep at night, is a horrifying thought. I think about how I was myself and I was only texting. Nova Right, exactly. Sleep is the foundation of good, positive mental health. Not having screen time before you go to bed, and not having your phone as the last thing you see before you go to sleep, is so important. Allowing children to have that time for slow dopamine, whether that's reading, playing or whatever it is, is what they need. What they're getting from their phones is this excessive amount of dopamine flooding their brains. Everything else in life becomes quite boring because, compared to what they're getting from their devices, whether it's their smartphone, social media, gaming or iPad, it becomes dull. We need to make sure we are balancing out that dopamine. Tech companies are fishing for our kids, and they're using dopamine as bait. It's incredibly hard to manage. Amy Absolutely. For people listening, at times it can feel like we're in a bit of a losing battle. But it is amazing to hear that the research and information are coming out. For people listening, if they were to try to make one meaningful change in their household this week, where should they start? Nova I think digital wellbeing is engaging in deliberately slow practices. Whether that's walking, yoga, mindfulness, meditation or reading, it's about allowing yourself to have the ability to focus and pay attention, which is what we're all struggling with because our collective attention spans are diminishing as a society. So really creating that in your daily life, whether it's five minutes or 20 minutes, is important. We all need to start training our attention and focusing our brains. When our brain and body are synchronised and calm, decision-making improves, creativity flows and we can function at peak efficiency. So, no phones before you go to bed. Have that time and space. No phones first thing in the morning. Have a device station where you all charge your devices as a family, perhaps in the kitchen. First of all, we're role modelling, because that's the most important and powerful lesson we can give as adults. Make sure there are no screens in the bedroom, no unrestricted access, and also have that time and space in the morning. That way, we're not starting with those stress responses if we're looking at the news or a busy work schedule, or if our children are looking at social media first thing in the morning. I think this is not just about digital wellbeing. This is about family wellbeing, and we all need to do it together. We all need to slow down, build that healthy, intentional relationship with tech and take back control. At the moment, these tech companies are in control of us constantly checking our phones and getting these notifications. One thing I always advocate for, which is really helpful in breaking phone addiction, is really simple: leave your phone in a different room. We know that the mere presence of a smartphone reduces students' cognitive capacity. That's why we have campaigned to get smartphones out of schools. By leaving your phone in a different room, you naturally have that time and space to regulate. You don't feel distracted. You don't feel that urge to pick it up, and you can have that mental clarity. When we're in control of our tech use, we feel much better. I can't say it enough: it's about role modelling and showing our children what healthier digital habits and digital wellness look like. Amy Before we go into some of the extra questions I like to ask from Really Good Conversations, when we make the effort to reduce screen time and reduce the digital usage that we're all doing, what are we intentionally managing to put back into childhood that has been missing? Nova Boredom and space. These kids don't know how to be bored these days. They are so used to this constant dopamine. We're all so busy. We're rushing them from one structured activity to another. We need to give them that time and space to play and to be creative, but also to have meaningful social interactions. Here in the UK, where it's really hard in the winter and we feel like we can't put our kids outside because it's cold or wet, just get those kids outside. It is hard, but it doesn't matter. They still love playing football and playing around, regardless of whether it's raining or not. Putting on muddy boots and going for a walk, or taking that football up to the park, is something we need to create. We need to create play, sport and activity because that helps with the neurons in their developing brains. It helps them to focus and concentrate. If we are taking away screen time and cutting back and reducing it, we need to allow them time to be bored, be creative, use their imagination and also be active. That's the part we need to play: get them outside and make sure they're moving, because movement is medicine. Amy I love that. While I don't want to bring in panic as such, if we don't course correct this and put the effort and energy in across the board, what concerns you the most about the adults of tomorrow? Nova It's so concerning. I feel that we are dumbing down a whole generation and we need to get a grip on this because AI is here and AI is coming. If we don't knuckle down and start getting this right now, it's going to be a catastrophe. It's incredibly worrying because AI could actually be said to be more dangerous than social media. Social media is a race for attention, but AI is a race for attachment. These chatbots are creating relationships with young children. Children might start using them for homework in an innocent way, but they can create meaningful relationships that perhaps they don't have. It's very worrying. We absolutely have to continue to advocate that our children are not the test subjects, and we have to get this right now. We need to make sure that we're giving them time for deep, meaningful thinking and critical thinking, so that when they do start using AI, hopefully when they're older, they will know the difference between using it as a tool and using it to do every part of their life, thinking, homework and business. These products are made for adults. We need to remember that. That's why we have to keep our children away from them in these younger years, because it doesn't take into consideration that children don't know how to use these products. Amy At the moment of us recording this, I think one of the AI companies I read about this morning was valued at over a trillion dollars. I can't remember the exact figure, but we also have to stop and question it. Amazing technology can do this, but then when you question it, this is big, big business for some people who are making a lot of money out of an audience, and we are that audience. There is so much we could talk about and continue to talk about on this topic. It is vast. It really is. We could go down so many rabbit holes. I think there are a lot of conversations for us all to keep having, and a lot of conversations for parents to be having with their children. Obviously, we are all about conversations, and I wanted to ask whether there has been a conversation, either through this journey or during your life, that has profoundly shaped or changed the direction of your life. Nova I think that just before I started campaigning, when I was having those real conversations with other adults and parents and hearing their struggles, I heard about a young child who sent a silly naked video to his girlfriend. Then they broke up. This was someone I knew quite well, and that video got sent around the whole year group at school. When you hear things like that, you think something has to be done. I feel like that was one of the moments when I thought, these children need help. We can't continue to just hand out these devices because we know that children are too young to be able to navigate them. That was definitely a real moment for me where I thought, parents are struggling, children are suffering, and we need to make real change. Amy That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing. As I said before, if people like you don't stand up and do it, you look around and think, who else is going to? I will move on and ask you three questions from our pack of Really Good Conversations. I've actually done a mix. I've got some from our kids pack here and some from our yellow pack. Question number one: if you could switch lives with any person for a day, who would it be and why? Nova That's interesting. Well, at the moment, with what I'm doing, I would probably like to switch lives with Keir Starmer so I could sort out this issue and protect children. I think that's really what I'd like to do, because they're dragging their feet and there are a lot of problems in the UK at the moment. I think we need some real leaders here to make meaningful change for the next generation of children. Amy Brilliant, thank you. And do you know what's weird? In my head, I knew that's who you were going to say. As soon as you were about to say your answer, that name popped into my head. That is so funny. Question number two: what would you do if you were invisible? Nova I'd probably go to my children's school and spy on them. I'd love to see what they get up to, because our kids are generally well behaved when they're at school and then they come home tired, grumpy and hungry. Sometimes we don't always get the best of them in the afternoons, and we're the ones who have to make them do their homework. I'd love to see them when they're happy, with their friends and at school. So, yes, I'd like to spy on them. Amy I love that. Equally, I love it when people say such nice compliments about our little one and you're like, that's so fantastic to hear. He's not always that polite at home, so great, I'm glad to hear he is on the outside. Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Nova Practice mindfulness. It's so important. In a world where we are doing too much, everything is so fast, and we are bombarding our brains with a tsunami of information, we're not respecting our brain's capacity. Start young. Start practising mindfulness and meditation. Learn to be slow and thoughtful with your actions, your thoughts and how you move through life. Be mindful. Find those moments where, when it comes to technology, you can stand in a queue and not look at your phone. You can wait at a bus stop or for the train and not look at your phone. It's the little things that mindfulness teaches you which will lead on to digital wellness. I think that's something that is not just a luxury. It's absolutely essential for all of us these days. Amy It so is. The final question I love to ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Nova That's a really good question. I think, because I've got my work hat on, I would like to sit down with one of the tech bros and just say, "What are you doing? What are you doing to the children in this world and the next generation, and why? Why are you doing this?" Because they know what they're doing. I think I would really like to hear what they have to say, because we now have internal documents and research to show that they know the harm that they're doing. Yet they're not making the changes they need to make, which they could probably implement really easily and really quickly. Amy Wow. I would love to be invisible in those conversations as well, because it is always food for thought. These people behind these companies have children themselves and families themselves. You do think, is the only thing you're looking at the profit line and not the impact? At times, you wonder where it's all going to go. Is it just going to get switched off one day? Perhaps it just needs to have an outage. Thank you so much, Nova, for everything you've shared today. Honestly, we really could keep going on lots of topics. I think what you've shared today is really thought-provoking for anyone listening and hopefully shared some new information they hadn't considered, or some tips they can take into their own world as well. Please share with our listeners where they can find out a bit more about you, the work you're doing, and anything you've got on the horizon. Nova Thank you, Amy. Firstly, it's been so lovely to speak to you and meet you properly today. In terms of support for children and parents, please do have a look at One Collective Power. We have created a fantastic website where, if you have any concerns as a parent, teacher, educator, child or teen, you can go to our website and find help, resources and support. So do have a look. In terms of upcoming work, I've got some big stuff with the NHS, which is fantastic. I'm really looking forward to supporting the hardworking parents and carers at the NHS. I'm also working with some charities and doing lots of talks in corporates and schools, and all the normal stuff that I do, which I'm so passionate about. I'm very lucky to enjoy my job, help people and do a good thing at the same time. So that's it, really. Have a look at our website, and if we can help you in any way, help your children, or offer any advice with parenting in the digital age, please reach out. Amy Fantastic. I will certainly be including all of those links. It's amazing that the work you and some of the fellow campaigners are doing is shining a light on this and educating people who are also in those roles of passing on education and information. Thank you so much again. Best of luck, and we'll speak again soon. Nova Thank you, Amy. Thank you so much. Take care.

May 18, 2026Episode 7236 min

Why Adults Forgot How to Play

Summary Amy speaks with Dara Simkin about why adults forget how to play and what we lose when life becomes too focused on productivity, achievement and keeping up. Dara explores play as a mindset, not just an activity, and shares why it can help us reconnect with curiosity, creativity, joy and each other. Guest Dara Simkin is the founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human. Her work explores play, creativity and human connection, helping people and teams build the human skills that technology cannot replace. Overview From achievement syndrome and success amnesia to the pressure to always be doing, this conversation looks at why play is not childish, but deeply human. Dara explains how small, low-stakes moments of play can help us feel more present, connected and alive in a world that often asks us to optimise everything. Key Outtakes: *]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-turn-id-container= "request-6a015108-756c-83ec-bb9b-91fabc1ac4c0-5" data-testid= "conversation-turn-60" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> Why play is a mindset, not just something children do How achievement can stop us enjoying the life we've built Why adults need permission to be less serious How play helps us reconnect with joy, curiosity and other people Simple ways to bring play back without adding more to the to-do list For more information: Dara Simkin - https://www.culturehero.co/ The book Full Stack Human - https://www.culturehero.co/full-stack-human-book Transcript Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I'm joined by Dara Simkin, founder of Culture Hero and co-author of Full Stack Human: The Mindset Upgrade You Need to Stay Human in a World Ruled by Technology. Dara's work explores the role of play, creativity and human connection in the way we live, work and lead. In this conversation, we'll explore why adults forget how to play, what we lose when everything becomes about productivity, and how play can help us connect, create and stay human in a fast-changing world. Welcome to the podcast, Dara. Dara: Hello, Amy. Amy: Thank you so much for joining me today. You're regarded as one of Australia's leading voices in play at work. So before we get into why adults need to get back to playing, can you explain for our listeners what you actually mean by play? Dara: I think when we often hear the word play, we think of something quite specific. Let's have a little go, shall we? When you think of the word play, what immediately comes to mind? Amy: Having fun. Dara: Exactly. And I think that's a very universal idea of play, which it is. Play is absolutely about having fun. But when we ask adults what they associate with play, they often say dogs, babies, kids, sports, board games and so on. When we talk about play through the lens of serious play, intentional play or purposeful play, it's really about play as a mindset or a mode, rather than an activity. It's about how we allow ourselves to get into a place where we feel more open, more relaxed and more capable of accessing dynamic thinking. We're able to be more generative in the way we think. We suspend judgement as best we can. We're open to failing, experimenting and giving things a go. So when I think about play, it's really this capacity to arrive in our lives in a very different way to how we normally arrive: overwhelmed, rushed, up to our eyeballs in things to do, in fight or flight, going, going, getting things done. I always liken it to those "aha" moments we have in the shower. We solve world hunger in the shower because it's probably the first time in our day where we're relaxed, in our body, by ourselves, and our mind is able to open because of those conditions. Amy: Yes, I can totally relate to that. It makes me think of previous roles I've had in other companies, where you're sitting at a desk all day and then you go into a meeting room and it's suddenly: "Right, we need to have a creative brainstorm. Everyone has to be creative now." You've got a one-hour meeting in the diary where you have to crack creativity, and it can feel like the most forced environment. It's not what you've just described at all. When you're in the shower, you remember things. You have ideas. You suddenly remember what you forgot to do. When I was preparing for this podcast, I was reminded of that old phrase: "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." I looked it up and it was first recorded in print in 1659 in James Howell's Proverbs. It's a saying we all know. We know it from films and popular culture, but I wonder whether we're really leaning into the meaning of it. Do you think adults have forgotten how important play is? Dara: One hundred per cent. I think we've actually created a culture that is suspicious of play. When we think back to the Puritan work ethic, which dates back 500 or 600 years, there's this idea that work is salvation, play is demonised, and productivity is a form of godliness. I think most institutions have been created around that perception. When you think about the Industrial Revolution and the point where we started replacing human labour with machines, we became cogs in a system. I don't think we've really been able to rectify that until now. I think conversations are being had where we look around and realise so many people are depressed, anxious, overwhelmed, stressed, burnt out or on multiple medications. We are incredibly unwell. I think we're realising more and more that the lifestyle that has been put upon us, around efficiency, getting a mortgage, having a nice car and this idea of success that's been sold to us, sucks. Amy: Definitely. The amount of times I've said to Alex, my husband, "I'm not sure about all this adulting." There's just such a long list of life admin to function as what we perceive to be an adult. We've both got young children, and seeing them play, and seeing their curiosity, is amazing. It's definitely brought that back to me. At what point do you think adults start to lose that natural instinct to play? Dara: I think it starts in adolescence, to be honest. When we start to gain more of a sense of individuality, identity and ego, we begin to compare ourselves to other people. My son is only five, and he's already talking about how other kids' clothes are cooler than his. I'm thinking, "Where is he getting that from?" Because it certainly isn't me. I'm astonished by this need to fit in and conform, but at the same time, it makes complete sense from an evolutionary perspective. We had to be part of a tribe. We had to belong and be included, otherwise we wouldn't survive. A lot of Full Stack Human is about understanding our evolutionary wiring, the things we are biologically designed to do in order to survive, and how the culture we live in can distort and over-sensitise those things, especially when it comes to belonging. We now understand so much about the brain, dopamine, reward and motivation. Brilliant people work in advertising and marketing, and when the message is "look like this, smell like this, wear this, buy this, do this, be this", that pressure starts from a very young age. So not only are we trying to conform and belong when we're young, we're also put into classrooms where we're expected to sit down, be quiet and learn numeracy and literacy. I've just been on a school tour for my son. He's five, so I was looking at what his primary school experience might be like. I asked the principal, "How much time do they have for imaginative play? How much time do they spend outside?" He could tell me about morning tea, recess and lunch, but when it came to imaginative play in the classroom, he didn't really have an answer. Amy: I absolutely feel you because we're in the exact same space right now. I had the same thoughts when I went on school tours earlier this year. It all felt quite restrictive inside the classroom. I looked at some of the classrooms and thought, "This feels the same as when we were at school." If we think about how we've evolved as adults, have we attached everything to having an outcome? Are we obsessed with everything needing some form of achievement? You talk about achievement syndrome. What do you mean by that, and how does it affect our ability to play? Dara: I came across this concept through a newsletter by a great researcher and writer called Michael Simmons, who is based in the States. Achievement syndrome is also this idea of achievement addiction, and it's really the thing that happens before burnout. As a society, especially in Western culture, we have a big obsession with burnout at the moment, and that's an important conversation to have. But based on the work and research I've done around achievement syndrome, the burnout conversation can be too late, because by then we're already at the end point. Michael talks about going back to childhood, where we get gold stars for doing the right thing. We start to realise that when we are good, smart or achieve something, we get accolades, recognition and validation. For many of us, especially those who had baby boomer parents, we didn't always get that validation at home. My parents had a hard time telling me they were proud of me, so we start to seek that out in other places, from teachers, sports coaches and so on. We start to learn that our value is connected to an output or an achievement. That gets reinforced when we go to work, where we get raises and promotions. If you're in sales, maybe you get the trip to Hawaii or whatever it is. So we double down on output. The more we do, the more we're recognised and revered. Then we start to optimise everything in order to do as much output as possible. Eventually we reach a point of diminishing returns. The thing we were once passionate about, the thing we studied for, worked towards and felt excited about in our twenties, doesn't give us the same feeling anymore. We get the raise. We get the promotion. But we're too exhausted to enjoy it or even recognise it. I think a comorbidity of achievement syndrome is success amnesia, where we forget about our successes because we're already onto the next thing. I speak from experience. As an entrepreneur, I have very much been on that hamster wheel of constantly doing, because it's endless. There's always more. Amy: There's no finish line, really. Dara: Exactly. When it doesn't feel as good as it once did, we've already created this baseline of chaos in the way we operate and live our lives. We have a mortgage we may be in over our heads with, or children in schools that cost $20,000 a year, or whatever it might be. Then we're on a one-way ticket to burnout. In the book, we talk about how if we want to stop sacrificing our humanity for success, we need to understand our relationship with success. How do we define it for ourselves? What does it look like? Is it money? A big house? Fancy holidays? Or is it something else? Amy: Let's talk a little bit about the book. It's called Full Stack Human. What does that phrase mean for our listeners? Dara: To keep it simple, it comes from computer programming. When you're a full stack developer, you can design a programme or an app from end to end. You understand the zeros and ones, the bits and bytes, the backend, and you can also design the shiny interface, the UX people interact with. From a people perspective, it's about knowing your own programming. Understanding your relationship to success, how you navigate change, what your biases and assumptions are, and the things unconsciously driving the way you behave and act every day. That's the backend concept of the first few chapters. Then the shiny user interface is about mental health, how we show up at work and how we lead. In the middle is what we call the five-layer stack, or the upgrade. That includes serious play, radical curiosity, embodied adaptability, intelligent optimism and strategic hope. There's a word in front of each concept: serious, radical, embodied, intelligent, strategic, because we're interested in the idea of being active. How do you become an active participant in your own life? I think we've created a society where we are so comfortable that we have a hard time being uncomfortable. We've created so many ways to maximise comfort, and I think that's doing us a massive disservice. When we talk about embodied adaptability, for example, it's about understanding how your nervous system responds to challenge. How do you adapt in a way that allows your nervous system to stay regulated and grounded even when things are hard? Strategic hope is about believing you can do it and that there is a way forward. There's agency in that. It's not just, "I hope this is going to be okay." The same applies to optimism. Optimism can be blind positivity or "good vibes". Intelligent optimism is about seeking fact-based evidence that a better future can be built, rather than just doomscrolling and listening to sensationalised media. Amy: And then filling your head with all the doom and gloom and coming offline in a panic. You talk about the human operating system. What do you think we need to protect or strengthen in ourselves right now? Dara: I think it starts with the responsibility to understand ourselves. A concept that emerged for me while writing the book was this idea of intelligent self-compassion. We're able to have compassion for ourselves and our situation because we are educated and aware of how we operate. I often say comprehension creates compassion. When we understand that we have nearly 200 documented biases that help us navigate the world, it gives us context. When there's too much information, not enough meaning, or when we need to act quickly, we make assumptions about ourselves and the world. Those assumptions are also inherited from when we were young, from our parents, caregivers, religion, background or whatever else shaped us. We also have an immunity to change. We are wired to evolve and not die at the same time. A lot of people don't realise that. We have this need to learn, grow and become a better version of ourselves, but we're also wired not to take risks because we want to survive. There is a psychological tension inside us that most people are unaware of. So when we try to change and have the best intentions, we sometimes can't do it and we don't know why. A lot of it has to do with our assumptions, and also our relationship to success. In the book, we talk about creating a clear-eyed view of what's breaking us. A lot of it has to do with our resistance to change, our biases, our assumptions and the way we navigate success and achievement. From an operating system upgrade perspective, we need to understand that as a baseline. A lot of people who have read the book have said it freed them from thinking, "It's me. Why aren't I coping? Why can't I keep up? Why is this so hard? Why am I so overwhelmed?" We berate ourselves as if it's a deficit of our own, when actually it's often society's pressure around technology, keeping up and all the expectations placed on us. So I think it starts with getting a baseline understanding of how our brain works. Amy: When people have that understanding, so much of it can feel like environmental factors. Whether it's your workplace or somewhere else, people might be listening and thinking, "That's great, but I can't really change how things operate at work. I don't make those decisions." So for people listening who think, "Great, I can read the book and understand this, but what action can I actually take in my everyday life that doesn't feel like another thing on the to-do list?" Dara: For me, it's about being an active participant. It's easy to say, "I can't do this. I don't have control." And yes, if you work in a toxic culture and you don't have the luxury of finding a new job, I totally understand that. But there are other environmental factors that affect your bandwidth and capacity that you do have control over. Look at the people you spend time with. Are you hanging out with people who fill your cup, who make you feel good, who energise you? Are you connecting with people physically, or are you just texting, calling, Facebooking or messaging? We need physical connection as human beings. That fills our cup, and we are often disconnected from that because we don't prioritise it. A great psychiatrist I follow, Ned Hallowell, calls it vitamin C: vitamin connect. We sometimes forget how important relationships are. Not just with our partner, child, mum, dad, brother or sister, but with friends and even colleagues. If work is hard, having a person you can go for coffee with, have a chat with and vent to can lighten the load. I also think we need to prioritise ourselves and prioritise play. The way we approach play is often backwards. Play becomes a reward. It's the thing we get after everything else is done. But everything is never done. It's endless. So if we treat play as a reward, or book one holiday and then get sick because our nervous system finally has a chance to come out of stress mode, we're missing the point. We need to prioritise small moments where we walk outside and notice where we are and what we're doing. We don't have headphones in. We don't have our face in our phone. Moments of wonder, awe and novelty. We need to look at play as an on-ramp to living more sustainably, being more connected and being more joyful. A lot of that comes down to thinking about what makes you feel good, and doing more of that. It's not rocket science. Sometimes, with self-improvement and the wellness industry, there's so much stuff we get overloaded with. Don't overcook it. What brings you joy? And I don't mean alcohol or Netflix. I mean things where you are participating, using your hands, using your brain, creating new neural pathways and getting involved. It could be going for a walk, seeing a friend, playing basketball or being present with your child while doing Lego. There are micro moments. When people think, "How do I change? What do I need to do? I'm going to join the 5am club and go to the gym every day," it can become another source of pressure. How can you do things that are low stakes, easy, accessible, doable and repeatable? Things that give you positive feedback, where you think, "That felt good. I want to do that again." You don't need to enrol yourself in a 12-week clowning course unless you want to. That would be my thing, but not everyone's. Go back to basics. What did you like doing as a kid? If you loved tinkering, go and do a woodworking workshop. Amy: I love it. So much of what you've said connects with other conversations I'm having, and with a lot of the wider narrative we're seeing online. It feels like we're in an era of waking up to how comfortable we've made life for ourselves, and all the technology we've brought into our lives. Now we seem to be in a phase of having to teach ourselves how to be human again and take ourselves back to the basics. All of the quick fixes or recommendations we see online, go do this, go do that, can end up giving us more layers. Dara: Can I just say: fuck the hack. For me, this idea of hacking anything is like, "Give me the quick shortcut. What do I have to do?" Just pause. Take a breath. Play is in all of us. We are biologically wired to play. It is part of our emotional system. It is as baked into our brain as fear, lust and seeking. Play is a part of us. It's not something you have to learn. It's something you have to dig up. Something you have to remember, recall and reconnect to. I'm not here for a play hack. It's about saying, "I was playful at some point in my life. I have felt joy before. What was I doing? Where was I?" Amy: If people listening are thinking, "I can't even remember how to play or what I used to find joy in," what could they start doing? Dara: I don't believe you. If you're listening and thinking that, I don't believe you. You just have to pause and give yourself a moment to remember. This idea of "I don't remember how to play" or "I don't remember how to feel joy", you do. You just have to give yourself enough time and space to unravel a little and access that part of yourself. Sometimes the best thing we can do in order to play is pause. Sit on your couch for five minutes with a cup of tea and no distraction. Take a few breaths. A lot of people turn their nose up at mindfulness and meditation, so let's call it the practice of nothingness. Can you do that? Can you do absolutely nothing for a minute? Amy: It's a struggle. I know when I try it, I immediately start thinking of all the things I need to get done. It takes time. This has been fascinating. Obviously, we are all about conversations in our world, and I know you are too in a lot of the work you do. I always ask: has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life? Dara: I feel like every therapy session I go to is a life-changing conversation. But I think a conversation that really shaped me was with our friends Graham Panther and Honor Eastly, who are amazing mental health advocates. We interviewed them for the book. They run an amazing community called the Big Feels Club, which is very much about community-based mental health support and normalising conversations around mental health. When I was speaking with Honor, she talked about bandwidth, and the idea that we don't have a resilience problem, because resilience is really indicative of our bandwidth. If we're having a really difficult time in life, we've lost a parent, we've been sick, work is hard, whatever it might be, our bandwidth is low. So our ability to bounce back, which is often how people define resilience, becomes inaccessible. That's okay. It doesn't make us a non-resilient person. It means we need to fill our cup again. That might be through recovery, rest or something else. For me, I have ADHD. I operate at a very different frequency to many people, and I can crash and burn. I don't really identify with burnout. I know that when my body starts telling me I'm not okay, I need to take the time to respond. Having that language around bandwidth, and understanding that bandwidth is not infinite, changed things for me. Each of us has a cup of a particular size depending on who we are and how we operate. We need to realise how our bandwidth expands and shrinks. Once I started thinking about that in my own life, I thought, "Where am I putting my energy, and am I getting it back?" A lot of the time, we put energy into things and don't get it back. To have a real conversation, I'm 40 years old. I've been separated for three years. I have a five-year-old. My dating pool is small. I also have ADHD, which means rejection sensitivity, hyper-focus and dopamine seeking. Dating for me takes a lot of bandwidth. Getting on apps and doing the whole thing was depleting me. I was suffering. I wasn't being present with my child. I had "boy brain", and it was taking away from the things that needed my focus, like my child and my business. So I stopped. I went on a six-month hiatus to recalibrate. That conversation around bandwidth changed the way I think about what I'm actually able to do. Amy: It's such a good reminder. I know I'm guilty of cramming more and more things in and almost thinking they all have the same level of priority, when often they don't. Thank you for sharing that. I think so many people can relate. Now I'm going to ask you three questions on the spot from our pack of cards. Question number one: if you came with a warning label, what would it say? Dara: Can be incredibly hyperactive. I'm late-diagnosis ADHD. I've had my diagnosis for a year, but I can connect to being this way my entire life. I can be very high octane. As a younger person, I definitely put my foot in my mouth a lot. As an adult, I've learnt not to be as impulsive in that way. While ADHD is a great way for me to think differently, be creative and do the amazing things I've done, it can also be really difficult. So my warning label would be: can be hyperactive. Amy: Question number two, which feels appropriate because we've been talking about play and childhood: what was there to do when you were a teenager? Dara: Go to the mall. There was a place I loved getting pretzels from called Auntie Anne's. We'd go to the movies and then hang outside after the movie. Because I grew up in Miami, there were also these all-age clubs you could go to. They don't exist anymore, but I have a very distinct memory of being 15 with my best friend, Melissa. My mum would never let me go, but my best friend's mum was super cool, so I would spend the weekend there. Her mum drove us to this club called Mad Max. We dressed up, went dancing and hung out, and her mum slept in the car park waiting for us to come back. So I was clubbing and hitting the dance floor at a very young age, having grown up in Miami. Amy: Brilliant. I love that. Amy: Question number three: what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Dara: I could try to say something really profound, but for me it's: never forget to play. We play when we're young and we play when we age. What happens in that 40-year period in between? Even children are playing less now because of technology and devices. I know in Scandinavia, GPs are prescribing play for children, which I think is devastating and really highlights what's happening in our world today. But yes, don't forget to play. Do things that bring you joy. Amy: And the last question I ask all of our guests is: if you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Dara: I took a bit of time to think about this, and I'm going to keep it on theme with play. There's a quote attributed to Plato: "You can learn more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation." I'd love to have a cup of tea with Plato and say, "Where did that come from? What did you see? What were the Greeks doing that made you think that?" I'd love to chat with Plato and ask, first of all, "Did you actually say that?" Because who knows when we're quoting Greek philosophers. But I think it's brilliant and so true, and I'd love to unpack that with him. Amy: Fantastic. Dara, thank you for everything you've shared today. This has been a really thought-provoking episode, and I hope people listening take some of these ideas into their own lives and worlds. As we wrap up, where can people find out more about you, Culture Hero and the book? Dara: The book is available through most online retailers, so wherever you are in the world, you can get it on Amazon. You can also visit fullstackhumanbook.com for more information. If you're in the professional world, you can find me on LinkedIn, where I share different insights. My business is Culture Hero, and the website is culturehero.co. If you're looking to engage your people in interesting and dynamic ways in the learning space, around developing human skills, that's my thing. I like to say I design experiences that boost human capability around what algorithms can't replace. So yes, hit me up. Amy: Fantastic. I'll include all of those links as well. Thank you so much for joining me today. Dara: Thanks, Amy. It was a really good conversation. Amy: Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guest. And if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

May 5, 2026Episode 7126 min

"We touch our phones more than our loved ones": Dr Niraj Lal on Life Behind The Screens

Summary "We touch our phones more than our loved ones." It's a jarring statement from scientist and broadcaster Dr. Niraj Lal, but the data backs it up. In this episode, we go "Behind the Screens" to understand why our biology is no match for the modern algorithm. From the "junk food" of digital connection to the looming challenges of AI and deepfakes, we explore how to build guardrails that protect our attention, our children, and our human relationships. Guest Dr. Niraj Lal is a scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has reached over 16 million listeners. With a background in solar cell physics and science communication, Niraj is dedicated to sparking critical thinking in the next generation. His new book, Behind the Screens, serves as a guide for young people (and adults) to navigate the ones and zeros of our digital world. Overview Why do we find it so hard to put our phones down, even when we know the content we're consuming isn't good for us? Dr. Niraj Lal joins Amy to pull back the curtain on the economic and biological structures that keep us hooked. We dive into the "Awareness Trap"; the idea that simply knowing how an algorithm works isn't enough to change our behavior because these platforms are designed to hijack our most basic social needs for validation and connection. Niraj explains the "frictionless" design of the internet and why we need to move beyond simple screen-time limits toward true digital agency. As global conversations ramp up around social media bans for children, Niraj offers a timely perspective on how to prepare the next generation. We discuss the rise of AI, the death of "seeing is believing," and why, in an increasingly automated world, the most valuable thing we can hold onto is the direct evidence of our human relationships. Key Outtakes The 2,000-Touch Reality: Why we touch our phones more than our loved ones and how to reset that balance The Awareness Trap: Why simply "knowing" how algorithms work isn't enough to stop the scroll Digital Junk Food: How to identify "low-nutrition" content that hijacks your social needs Beyond the Ban: Practical "guardrails" for kids that go deeper than just setting screen-time limits How to navigate a world of AI, deepfakes, and computer-generated truth The Ultimate Happiness Hack: Why scientific data proves human connection is still our greatest currency For more information: Dr. Niraj Lal website https://nirajlal.org/ The book 'Behind the Screens' https://www.uqp.com.au/books/behind-the-screens Transcript: "We Touch Our Phones More Than Our Loved Ones" Amy: Today I'm joined by Dr. Niraj Lal, scientist, ABC presenter, and host of the Imagine This podcast, which has gained over 16 million listens. His new book, Behind the Screens, helps young people understand how the digital world really works. It covers everything from algorithms and AI to social media, gaming, and online behavior. This conversation isn't just about kids and screens. It's about how all of us are learning to live, think, and connect in a world shaped by technology. Welcome to the podcast, Niraj. Dr. Niraj Lal: You can call me Nidge, Amy, if you'd like! But yeah, great to be with you. Thanks for having me. Amy: Fantastic. Now, I have your recent book here, Behind the Screens. It feels like such a topical book right now. There is a lot of talk around the world about social media bans and kids' use of technology, and also our own use as adults. I'm really keen to dive into this topic with you. But firstly, you come from a scientific background. What drew you to understanding how things work, from your science work right through to the digital world we're living in? Dr. Niraj Lal: Well, I think I was always just asking questions. I probably was an annoying kid, but I just try to figure out how the world works and the things that matter to all of us. I studied science and art at university: physics, maths, politics, and philosophy. Then I concentrated on physics to figure out how to make the world work for all of us. My background is in solar cell physics, trying to make solar panels more efficient. I still work in that field, but I increasingly do science communication for young ones. The aim is not just to teach facts, but to spark the skills of creative and critical thinking. It is about learning how to distinguish true information from everything else. This book stems from that: helping a young generation navigate the internet and learn what's going on "behind the screens" so they can make it work in their best interests. Amy: So many of us are walking around and we don't even question how things work or the technology we're using. When was the moment you thought, "Actually, I need to dig deeper on this"? Dr. Niraj Lal: It went by degrees. You just look at adults today: catching public transport or anywhere you are, we're all really plugged into our devices. The average adult in the Western world checks their phone more than 85 times a day. That's every 10 minutes during waking hours. We touch our devices more than 2,000 times a day. We touch them more than anything else: more than our loved ones, and more than we touch ourselves. We're all a little bit hooked. Seeing the impact this has on our society and our civic conversations, how we speak to each other and see the best side of someone else's viewpoint, it's becoming harder. We're getting more polarized. There was a wonderful documentary, The Social Dilemma, that talked to tech executives who knew exactly what drives engagement. It's not always true information, and it's not always in our best interests. I wondered if we could teach that to kids before they get a phone, to give them a bit of armor before they go online. Amy: We put a lot of focus on kids, but as you highlighted, as adults, we're all doing it. What do you think most people misunderstand about how the internet actually works? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's designed to be incredibly seamless. It's like, "How does a fish recognise water?" It's just around us. That frictionless design is intentional. I think it's helpful to be aware of what happens when your device sends something online: what metadata is, how it's used to create a profile of you, and how that's used to figure out which ads to show you. Nothing is "evil" there; it's just how it works. If we're aware of it, it helps. I think the same thing will happen for AI. Amy: You've touched on metadata and algorithms. Why is it that as humans, we might understand this intellectually, but our behavior doesn't actually shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: Because we're human. Our brains evolved as social creatures on the savanna with an almost infinite capacity for being liked and connected. App developers have found a way to hijack that for profit. It's a bit like junk food; we know it's bad for us, but we still eat it. The difference is there's a physical limit to how much junk food you can eat before you feel sick, but I don't know if there's the same limit to feeling validated or connected. Amy: In your view, are we dealing with a technology problem or a human behavior problem? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't know if it's a problem so much as an outcome of who we are as biological organisms and how our society is structured around profit-making. We're usually catching up with technology, and we're trying to catch up now with legislative changes. The first step is awareness. Amy: Is it too late? Are we so far into it that we can't go back? Dr. Niraj Lal: I don't think we're too late. It is tricky for the generations that have already slipped through. I don't know if we did right by the young people who were online before these social media bans. But every other technological revolution has found ways to have appropriate guardrails, and we can do the same here. It's up to us to say, "Hey, we want this to work in our best interest." Amy: I'm conscious of my phone use around my son. What are kids really learning from watching adults use technology? Dr. Niraj Lal: It's absolutely critical. "Monkey see, monkey do." It's hard to be those role models when we feel so time-pressured with work and life admin. Kids are observing how we do it well and how we don't. But the kids I spoke with for the book are actually quite savvy. They can see what's going on and they want to make it work for them. Amy: What is the one conversation parents should have before giving a child a phone? Dr. Niraj Lal: My tip is that it doesn't have to go from zero to 100%. It can be a gradual process. "Here's a device with messages and a phone; we'll talk about adding more apps over time." Keep the conversation as open as possible. Let them know: "If you see something that makes you feel weird or yuck, that's totally okay and you can talk to me." Make sure they have a safety network. If they're gaming, join them. If they're scrolling, do it together sometimes. Keeping that connection open is the most important part. Amy: We are now in this world of AI, and you talk about the difficulty of knowing what's "real." Are we moving toward a world where truth is about trust rather than facts? Dr. Niraj Lal: We're certainly in an age where any image or video has a real possibility of being computer-generated. Trust, independent verification, and being aware of your media sources will become vital. I think face-to-face, in-person experiences will become even more important: the things we can learn through direct evidence. Amy: What concerns you most about this shift? Dr. Niraj Lal: The conversation is accelerating so quickly. It's helpful to look under the hood of what a Large Language Model actually is, because that gives us agency. We shouldn't assume that just because an AI can converse in a personable manner, it carries the same empathy, value judgments, and ethical frameworks that we take for granted as humans. Amy: I've got some quick "Mythbuster" questions for you. Answer "Myth," "Truth," or "Somewhere in between." Number one: Kids understand technology better than adults. Dr. Niraj Lal: Somewhere in between. Kids are better at fixing the aerial or the video player, but they don't always have the healthy skepticism or that gut sense that something smells fishy. Amy: Number two: If you understand algorithms, you're less influenced. Dr. Niraj Lal: True. If you're aware of what's being put in front of you to keep you engaged, it helps you seek out opposing views. Amy: Number three: Screen time is the main problem. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. Screen time is a symptom. The problem is that we've created economic structures where we don't value social spaces or natural environments enough. We've outsourced parenting to digital devices because they are free and engaging. But when something is free, you or your kids are the product. Amy: Number four: AI will make it impossible to know what's real. Dr. Niraj Lal: False. I believe in our ability to figure out frameworks to verify information. It will be harder, but humans will always have the capability to understand what's real through direct evidence and the scientific process. Amy: What's something you're still figuring out yourself? Dr. Niraj Lal: All of it! All the theory in the world doesn't help when you find yourself doom-scrolling. I'm figuring out effective ways to stay healthy with it, just like everyone else. Amy: Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you? Dr. Niraj Lal: So many. My grandparents, primarily. I remember asking my grandma for advice and she just said, "Just be happy." At the time, I expected something more complex, but over time I realized that most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. Amy: I love that. Simplicity is often the answer. Now, three quick questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Number one: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Dr. Niraj Lal: Flying! Easy one. And without carbon emissions, that'd be pretty cool, wouldn't it? Amy: Question two: What was your biggest highlight from last year? Dr. Niraj Lal: Going fishing with my kids and seeing them catch a bunch of fish. I'm getting into spear-fishing too, finding "flow" in the ocean. Amy: And question three: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on? Dr. Niraj Lal: The insight from the long-running Harvard study on happiness: human relationships, more than money or fame, are what lead to happier, healthier, longer lives. Value those close personal connections above all the noise. Amy: If you could ask anyone, dead or alive, a question, who would it be? Dr. Niraj Lal: My dad, who passed away in 2021. I'd love to have more conversations with him. Professionally, Carl Sagan. I'd love to hear his thoughts on how we can communicate the wonders of the natural world to young people today to help us with the challenges we face as a society. Amy: Fantastic answers. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel like we've only scratched the surface! I hope our listeners leave with some reflection on their own habits. Where can they find out more about you and your book? Dr. Niraj Lal: Thanks for having me, Amy. This was a beautiful thing. People can find me at nirajlal.org, and Behind the Screens is available wherever you get your books. Amy: Thank you, Nidge. And thank you for the work you're doing to help us navigate this world. Thanks for listening,join us next time for another Really Good Conversation.

April 21, 2026Episode 7036 min

Why Smart People Still Get Scammed

Summary Scams are no longer just about dodgy messages or obvious red flags. In this episode, Amy talks to scam investigator Kylee Dennis about the human side of online deception; how trust gets built, why loneliness can make people more vulnerable, and how AI is changing what feels believable online. From romance scams to voice cloning, this is a timely conversation about manipulation, digital safety and the conversations families need to be having now. Overview Kylee Dennis is the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. With 14 years in law enforcement behind her, she was drawn into this work after her own mum became the victim of a romance scam. In this conversation, Kylee shares what that experience revealed, how scammers use persuasive language to build trust, why intelligent people still get caught out, and what all of us should be more aware of in a world shaped by loneliness, technology and AI. Guest Kylee Dennis is a scam investigator and digital safety specialist, and the founder of Two Face Investigations and Scam Prevention Australia. Her work focuses on exposing online deception, supporting victims, and helping people better understand how scams really work; from romance scams and sextortion through to emerging AI threats. Key Outtakes Scams are often less about technology and more about trust, timing and emotional vulnerability Persuasive language is one of the biggest tools scammers use to create connection quickly Loneliness and isolation can make people far more vulnerable than many realise AI is making scams more convincing, with voice cloning and deepfake video adding new risks One of Kylee's clearest messages For more inofrmation: Two Face Investigations www.twofaceinvestigations.au

April 7, 2026Episode 6928 min

How Maku Fenaroli Quit Finance & Built an Art-led Fashion Brand

Summary Maku Fenaroli went from a career in finance to building Maku The Label — an art-led fashion brand from Melbourne that scaled fast and forced her to back herself sooner than expected. In this episode, we talk about the real tipping points, the behind-the-scenes challenges of rapid growth, and what it takes to turn creativity into a sustainable business. Guest Maku Fenaroli is the founder and creative force behind Maku The Label, an art-led fashion brand known for bold, wearable designs. With a background in teaching and finance, Maku now combines hand-made creativity with modern e-commerce to build a fast-growing label with a loyal community. Overview Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku The Label, shares the leap from "safe job" to building a brand in public. Maku originally trained as a teacher, then fell into the world of superannuation when she moved to Melbourne; a role that felt comfortable, if not aligned. Creativity was always there in the background, but like many people, she didn't believe it could become her full-time life. Everything shifted when she finished breastfeeding her second child and found herself living in T-shirts - but unable to justify the designer price tags or support fast fashion. So she did what most people only think about: she made her own. Starting with a low-risk print-on-demand model, Maku tested designs in real time and quickly discovered what customers were truly craving. We unpack the point where the business became "real": the six-figure Boxing Day sale, the strain of juggling a full-time job alongside late-night production work, and the moment she knew she had enough data to step away from corporate life. Maku also shares the cost of rapid growth, from customer service pressure to product development setbacks, and why building something meaningful requires both resilience and humility. Visit Maku The Label https://makuthelabel.com/ Transcript Today, I'm joined by Maku Fenaroli, founder of Maku the Label, a bold art-led brand that's built serious traction in a short space of time. Maku started the business while working in finance, created a few t-shirts when she felt she had nothing to lose, and within four months, the momentum was strong enough for her to quit her job. Recently named in the top 50 people in e-commerce, she is building, navigating growth, marketing, self-doubt and the realities of backing yourself. Welcome to the podcast! Maku (01:06) Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Lovely intro. Amy (01:09) It's a fascinating journey that you've been on and different worlds from your finance background to now fashion. And I thought it would be great to tap into that journey a bit more and for listeners to get a bit of an insight of how a change can happen in your life or direction. So firstly, take us back because before launching Maku, which is a fashion brand, you started in finance. So how did you end up in the financial world? Maku (01:39) Yeah. So I had a job in a superannuation company and actually back in New Zealand, I was a teacher. So I'd moved to Melbourne thinking I would get another teaching job. I couldn't get the position that I wanted. So one of my friends worked in HR for the superannuation company. And I went in for an interview thinking this would just be like a short term thing. And then I was there for 13 years. Amy (02:06) It's crazy where the years go. Maku (02:09) Yeah. And I think I just remember thinking when I started, wow, this is so easy. Like, it's such an easy job from teaching, you just go in, do emails and all that stuff, have your lunch and then go home and you're not there still thinking about the children and the program that you're going to teach for the next day. So yeah, I ended up just staying because it was quite comfortable at the time, but it was obviously never my passion. Amy (02:31) Have you always had a creative… Maku (02:32) I've always been an artist, yeah. So I've always been an artist, but it was always my side hustle. It was never something that I thought I could do full-time. I always wanted to. Obviously you always want to do your passion full-time, but I was never in that position. But funnily enough, the company that I worked for always used to hero that you can work flexible and you can do your passion. And so I would be the spokesperson for flexible working and I have my career as an artist as well. So I would talk about it at work as well. Amy (03:03) Oh that's brilliant. And what prompted you to actually, you know, finally take the leap, finally start it and in particular start with t-shirts? Maku (03:18) Yeah, so t-shirts obviously wasn't on the bingo card for me. But I'd just finished breastfeeding my second child and I was living in t-shirts and I wanted to buy a couple of new tees at the time and they were really expensive. All the ones that I liked that felt like they were me were in the $200 mark or designer t-shirts and I just couldn't afford them. So I was like, whatever, I'll just print my own. And there are a lot of companies around Australia, like the T-Shirt Company and the Print Bar where you can just upload your artwork onto their website and they'll print you the t-shirt and send it to you. And I thought, let's just give this a go. I've got nothing to lose. I'm not investing any money in this. Even if I pop these up on my website and nothing sells, I haven't pre-bought these t-shirts. So I did that. And of course, you know, my sister and cousin were the only people that bought them when we started. But then a couple of influencers that I reached out to agreed to let me send them the t-shirts and it just took off. I think one of the reasons that it took off was I was designing pieces that I really wanted to wear. So I knew they were wearable and they weren't just me trying to copy something that another t-shirt brand has done or, you know, trying to come up with the same formula that everybody's used to. They were looking for something different and for something really colorful. So yeah, it was a very unexpected shift in my career at the time. Amy (04:50) And at that point as well, by leveraging these other companies as well from a manufacturing point of view, initially then you didn't have to have that big outlay of, buying upfront all of the products, you could actually utilise that service, you know, print on demand, if you will. And then that I imagine gave you a good insight to what are people actually buying and what they want. Maku (05:13) It was really amazing and it was a really great way to start the business because there was absolutely no risk. You know, I would paint something and then 30 minutes later pop it on Instagram and people could buy it. And it didn't matter if the designs didn't sell because as I said, you know, we weren't buying stock in these. So I was really kind of testing what worked and what didn't. But what wasn't great was it would take people like 10 to 15 days to get their order because they were printing the t-shirts to go. We didn't manage this company. It was a company that -- this is their standards. You get your printed t-shirts within this time. So not great customer service, but great in terms of learning and great for us as a business who were just kind of testing the water. Amy (05:59) Very much. And we often talk about it's kind of putting something out there, you know, test, iterate, learn, then, you know, build from it. So not having that huge, you know, risk at the beginning is really useful. And many people, you know, who are perhaps, you know, working corporate worlds or even just other jobs, you know, they might have this idea to, they've got a business idea or something they want to do, but you end up in this situation where, well, you can't fully leave the job yet because you're wanting to cover your salary, perhaps. But then on the next side, you can't grow the other business because you don't have the time to do it because you're working full time elsewhere. How did you navigate through that period? And when was the tipping point that you thought, right, we're onto something here and I can consider actually leaving my job? Maku (06:44) Yeah, it was after we had our first ever sale, which was Boxing Day. Bear in mind, the business only started officially in December. And then we had our first Boxing Day sale that same month. And I think we did six figures, and we were like, what? So I think it was kind of that point that we started thinking maybe this is going to be something we can continue. And then the sales continued in January. We had our biggest month ever in February, which we've learned now that in retail, that's quite unusual. And I think it was at that point that I was working till 12 o'clock at night, setting up these artworks on the website that we were using, cause it was so manual that my mental health was starting to struggle trying to do the two things. I thought, I can either lean in and do the business that I feel most passionate about or we scale back the side hustle and I try and keep the two jobs, but I just wasn't mentally in a place to keep the boat. And my husband was like, let's do it. I back you. We had just brought on Colleen, the business advisor, and she was like, I think you're safe. So it wasn't without a lot of thought behind it. And also, although, you know, four months isn't that long, we felt like we had enough data there to say, we can comfortably quit our jobs knowing we can expect this amount of revenue for the next year. So I think that was what made us comfortable to quit our jobs at that point -- we felt like we had enough data to say it was safe for us to quit and we would be financially stable. But yeah, it definitely wasn't without hesitation and without a lot of strain on us both. Amy (08:31) And it is harder, especially with two children in tow as well. You're not thinking of it just solely for yourself. Perhaps when you are in the earlier twenties or younger, it's like, oh, it doesn't matter. No one else is relying on me. I don't have really any responsibilities. But obviously at this stage, you've actually got those to consider as well. And when you did actually hand in your notice, what did that feel like? Maku (08:53) It was the best moment of my life, because although I didn't hate my job, I certainly didn't love it. And I think a lot of people can probably attest to the fact that the corporate world can feel a little bit toxic, a little bit draining. You know, when you work for a big corporate company, you kind of become just a number and you're very replaceable. So it felt really good to be able to leave that environment that I never really loved or felt passionate about. And also it felt really good because I just, as I said, wasn't in a good place mentally trying to hold up two jobs at the same time but my husband and I both felt really comfortable because like, if this doesn't work out, we can just go back to the same job. It's not the end of the world, we'll give it a crack and if it doesn't work out we just go back and find jobs, it's not the end of the world Amy (09:30) Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's having that mindset to think, you know, it's not like, this is the only thing that I'll ever do, if it doesn't work, it's like, can just go back or, you know, find a new job or a different job. It might open up a completely different area as well. When did you feel that there was then that moment that this is the true launch of the business? So as you said, it's sort of launched in that December over the Christmassy time, but do you think it was more so after you'd left your previous company that you were like, this is now it launched, or was there a bit of a journey in that? Maku (10:18) I would say we felt like we officially launched as a business when we started manufacturing our own t-shirts, because up until this point, we'd been using blank t-shirts from the businesses who'd been printing the t-shirts. And in that Boxing Day sale, we sold out of every single coloured, like, not the white and black t-shirts in Australia. So we had some customers who were waiting two, three months for their T -- it was excruciating. And I was dealing with every single customer service email with people like being so nasty about a T-shirt. You wouldn't believe how nasty that could be. And I was like -- struggling. So when we finally got our first shipment of T-shirts, which, you know, it sounds silly, but having our own nep label was such a big moment for me because it felt like I had officially a product that was mine. So that was around about April or May of 2025 was when we got our very first batch of t-shirts that were all ours. And we'd moved to a different printing factory who were working with us rather than just using a business who does that for lots of different companies or whatever. So yeah, that's when it felt like we were officially sort of making it serious. And that was also when I started really ramping up the ready to wear design process, because I knew that t-shirts alone was not going to be a business that was going to be sustainable. And I'd already seen lots of other people starting to come out with their own art based t-shirts. And I just knew we were going to have to pivot really quickly, which is what we started doing at that point. Amy (11:52) And gosh, I mean, how was that journey itself? Because a lot of people, you know, they might be in the creative space or the arty space and think, I don't really, can't really do the business side of things or the logistics side and all of that. But as you highlighted, not only are you the artist, you then actually had to go and source the manufacturing. So was that a bit of a process? Cause then you're getting into how you want the t-shirt to actually fit and feel. And I know myself, you know, finding t-shirts and I've just got here, yep, the branded t-shirt here, but would this be my actual desired fit of t-shirt? Possibly not really. You know, so actually once you get into that side of things, you've now got even more elements to think about. Maku (12:33) Yeah. And I mean, I just loved learning every little piece of information about it. And we tested lots of different t-shirts and then, you know, initially in the early days, people were telling us that the necks were just a little bit too tight, so then we fixed the neckline, or they were too long or too tight on the hips. And so we really took that time to listen to all of our customers' feedback and really design a t-shirt that just felt like it was going to work for everyone. And so I really loved coming to that process and, you know, working that out myself. And the other amazing thing that the business did for me really was give me a love for my art back. Because having that be my side hustle for so many years, knowing that really, I did always want it to be my full-time job, but I just never could quite get the art off the ground. You just slowly lose confidence. I was like, I'm not a good artist. The only way I'm going to become, or get considered or taken seriously as if I go back and do a bachelor's degree. So I was either gonna stop art altogether or go and do a bachelor's degree. I was like, I've had enough. It's just draining me. It's draining my love for art. I don't feel creative. And that was kind of when I started putting the art on T-shirts because I just sort of had lost all care factor. It's kind of funny because then the minute I just dropped all of my inhibitions was when I started this company and then yeah, found my love for art again and couldn't stop painting. Like, if you look around me now, there's just artwork everywhere. I just am constantly painting. So it was so nice to be able to get my love for art back. And when it's your own company and your own passion, you're just driven. So yes, it's difficult to work out all of these things you've never worked out before and try and find manufacturers and whatever, but the hustle is like what keeps you going. It's exciting. Amy (14:29) Yeah, absolutely. And you're making me think, you know, as you're chatting, my auntie is actually an artist in the UK. She's an amazing artist and she does a lot of teaching and she does holiday courses and all of that sort of stuff. But selling the actual art is hard. The reality is a lot of the very famous artists that we know of their time, they didn't become famous until they were dead. So if you want to in your living life embrace and enjoy the art, it is an industry that is challenging to -- how can you give that creative outlet? Maku (15:07) People don't often have money for art. I mean, I'm an artist. I look at my own home. Like the priority of when I do have money and if I'm going to spend that on art, it's like way down here. Whereas t-shirts and clothes, we love t-shirts and clothes. It's so easy to spend money on. So -- and drinks at the bar Amy (15:31) Yeah, definitely. Maku (15:33) So yeah, I think it sort of helped me realise it wasn't that my art was bad, it's just that it's a tough industry to work in and it's a hard sell. Amy (15:42) Yeah, absolutely. And we have talked, obviously, and you've highlighted actually just some of those hard elements, you know, on this journey and really, you know, any business journey, but we also highlighted some of the amazing, like positive stats you've had. But what do you think has been the hardest part to the success or the business growth that people don't see? You know people do just hear that, great, you quit after four months, it was making enough money. You know, people think of just purely the money, great, you're making enough money to quit your job, it's a huge success. What have been the things along the journey do you think that have been those trade-offs? Maku (16:15) I mean, the biggest one was when we sold out of those t-shirts in December, which was amazing because the business was growing. But sitting there and reading all of those customer emails of people who weren't getting their t-shirts, I was in tears every day. And my husband had to remind me like, you're not saving lives. You're just selling t-shirts. It's not that deep. But it was really difficult because you're in there and this is like your brand and this is your baby and you've got people like just, yeah, it was really, really hard. I think one of the biggest things for me to get through that was hiring someone in customer service to just take over those emails, because I just couldn't mentally deal with them anymore. It was so hard. And then the other really difficult thing to manage was learning to do ready-to-wear. I'd never done any of that before. The product development and finding fabrics that actually print the artwork and maintain the integrity of the artwork has been really hard. So just the sheer amount of money that's gone into trying to make these garments amazing. And then you get a comment on TikTok that's like, why is it this or that? Amy (17:18) It's hard not to take it personally. Maku (17:20) It's really hard not to take it personally, especially when people don't understand how much really goes into it. And I think one of the difficult things too has been trying to work out our retail price. You know, obviously I would love to charge the same prices that Big W and Kmart do, but we just don't have that buying power. I think, yeah, trying to find the right balance of charging a reasonable price, but being able to keep a roof over our heads has been difficult to manage because we've never had to look at things like that and we've never had to run a business ourselves and understand what are all of the costs in a business. Amy (17:58) And there's so many - genuinely the customer has no idea about all of the levels. Everything you're saying to me is absolutely resonating with, you know, our journey with the Really Good Conversations so far, because there's like, there's the physical product itself. That's almost like the easiest thing. Apart from your ready to wear part, because there's all of these other elements from whether it's, know, yes, the marketing, but the storage, the delivery, the logistics, the postage, and then exactly what you said, things, once they go into the post, are a little bit out of our hands. You're relying on the postal services or the courier services. And then when you get customers saying the thing hasn't arrived, but all the tracking is there to say it has. It's like, yes. So totally understand. There's so many just like unforeseen elements as well. Maku (18:52) And probably one of the most heartbreaking things was not being able to put my very first bomber jacket into production. So we'd made this really amazing bomber jacket with flowers and everything over it. And then when the bulk shipment arrived, the art peeled off and it was devastating. Yeah, that was one of the big -- anyway. Amy (19:13) It'll all become a book one day. Maku (18:17) Yeah. It's been a huge, very steep learning curve. Amy (19:18) As we go back to, the art is the thing that really, you are driving that visual element to the brand. We've talked about these other things, but e-commerce itself, is e-commerce your predominant main channel for sales? Maku (19:32) Yes. We don't have a storefront, so we're only e-comm and that's the side of the business that my husband manages. And he's really taken that on and is loving that. I don't know if you know how many e-comm bros there are, but there's like a little community of e-comm bros and they love talking to each other. And so he's really thriving with that. And I think that even if this business for some reason didn't work out -- but of course it will, manifestation -- he will always do e-comm stuff. Cause I think it's just business for him. Amy (20:02) Yeah. And you have been recently identified in the top 50 in e-commerce. So how does that recognition feel? Maku (20:13) I mean, it does feel a bit like it should be Kyle's, to be honest. But I suppose the business was, you know, created by me. So, but yeah, no, it was really great and really grateful to be recognized as part of that, especially being so, so new to this industry. Just feels like a privilege. Amy (20:37) Yeah, brilliant. And something that we were talking about a little bit offline as well is the realities of doing these journeys and motherhood and coming from previous environments, you know, when you work for somebody else, that structure that you have when you're in other companies, and then when you have it, you know, completely on your own, how do you structure your work so that, you know, you can bring the energy to what you're doing? Maku (21:03) To be honest, I'm really -- I do struggle with trying to figure out the structure of my day. And I feel like I've gone through a few different ways of trying to get organized and printing out a calendar for the year and then never looking at it again. Amy (21:18) This sounds exactly like me! Maku (21:20) Yeah, I've given it a few different cracks. And for the most part, I just wing it, to be honest, I'm finding trying to find structure in my day is probably quite difficult for me because one day I might be needing to do artwork, and then that artwork might take me the entire day. So then I've got a whole entire day full of emails to catch up with on the next day. But then if I'm in my creative brain, I find it difficult to leave the artwork the next day because I'm like, need to finish this. So it's a work in progress. You know, I miss a lot of meetings, but people seem to give me concessions because I'm a creative. So that's nice. Amy (22:00) Yes. You are the brand. You are the visionary. Maku (22:02) I'm not trying to take advantage of that. It's just more that I think people realise that when you're creative, you sort of get in the zone and like time becomes a construct. Like I just don't even have a concept of time when I'm painting. Amy (22:14) I just think this as well, in these, in the business and when you're creating a product and running everything that goes with it, there's just so many different moving parts. I mean, I personally find myself, I jump between so many different things and then that's exhausting at the end of the day. Maku (22:29) Yeah, you feel like you haven't really finished anything because you've gone like, yeah, it's like when you unload the dishwasher and then you put the cup away and then you see something in the cupboard, you're like, I've to go do that. And then you come back and the dishwasher is still full. It's like, that's my day! Amy (22:41) Well, definitely the one in our household, and I'll say this for Alex, my husband as well, is the kettle that gets boiled. Maku (22:47) And never gets made a tea. Amy (22:49) Then you walk away from it for a moment and then you come back and you go -- oh. I'll ask you then: in your creative process, obviously you've had slogans in there as well, but where do you draw your inspiration from? Maku (23:04) I would say day to day life, really, I'm kind of a person who like, will be doing something and then I'll go, that gives me a good idea. And then I'll go and paint that thing straight away. But also, I'm finding I'm looking a lot towards luxury brands, and brands that have a lot of print heavy styles to look to. So yeah, I'm looking a lot towards brands like Gucci and Dior, ones that are really heavily print based. Because I find in Australia, like there's not a lot of the designer brands that really do lots of art heavy prints. I feel like we've gone a little bit more on the, what's the word, like quiet luxury. And so there's not a lot of print based stuff. So for inspiration, I'm finding going to places like that, where they really like, push the boundaries of what clothing should look like. And then I take that and I interpret it into my way. How can I make that my style and how can I make that more personal to what I like and what I love? Amy (24:12) I love that. Now, before I ask you some questions from our Really Good Conversations pack, I will ask you, has there been a conversation that has profoundly changed you or the direction of your life? Maku (24:23) Goodness me. I don't know that there's been one single conversation that's been profound or that's changed my life. But what I will say is that moving into this very new industry and meeting lots of new people, I found that networking has been so incredible and that taking the time to actually talk to people who you normally never would and forcing yourself even if you don't want to, go talk to people, you just learn little tidbits about everybody's lives and you know, maybe one person that you meet might end up having a huge impact on your life. Like the Lisas conversation, know, I met Lisa and then ended up talking to her sister who became our business advisor for the first year. Or I met this really beautiful woman in New York who turned out to be the manager of Ford models in New York. And she was just the most beautiful human I'd ever met. And her husband was a firefighter in the 9-11 incident. I was enthralled and spoke to her for hours. And I think that's one thing that I've really tried to lean into in this new industry is really taking the time to speak to people because you don't know what you'll learn or what might change the trajectory of your career. Amy (25:39) Absolutely. And I think certainly there is that when you are doing your own thing, you've got that flexibility to go and have these conversations. When you are in the, again, whether it's a corporate world, like you have meetings with your colleagues or whatever work it is. So you're not going off and meeting people necessarily from sometimes completely different industries. Or there might be people who, yes, they're still in the e-commerce space, but it's a totally different product. But then there's still so much crossover and learnings and challenges along the way. So yeah, I totally agree with that. Right. My questions from our Really Good Conversations pack. Question number one: What is one of your pet hates? Maku (26:19) People chewing with their mouths open or like loud eating. Amy (26:25) Question number two: If you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Maku (26:33) That's hard, because I want quite a few. I think flying. I dream about flying almost every night and I just -- how amazing would that be? Amy (26:43) Wow, I love that. And question number three is: What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Maku (26:54) That's such a big, like, responsibility. One piece of wisdom. I guess it would just be to take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. But then kindness as well and kindness -- Yeah. I don't know. It would either be, be kind to people, kindness matters or take care of the planet. It's the only one we've got. Amy (27:16) Both so important, that is amazing. And the last question that I like to ask all of our guests is: If you could ask someone a question, dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Maku (27:27) Okay, yes, I did think about this and it would be Banksy, and "Who are you?" Amy (27:32) Yessss Maku (27:34) Right? Who is he? The other one was going to be Andy Warhol. And like, did you feel you were as successful as you were? Or did you compare yourself to other artists? I'd love to just really rack his brain to understand if he knew how impactful his art was going to be on the world. Amy (27:52) Yeah. And that's, to go back to what I said earlier, it's like, do they ever actually know until actually it's sort of perhaps past their time to really -- when you're in it, you know, you're doing all of the things to try and get it out there. Well, thank you so much for everything that you have shared today. Where can our listeners come and find out more, well, about you and look up some of your fabulous fashion products? Maku (28:15) Well, our website is makuthelabel.com. You can also find us on Instagram, @maku_thelabel. I share a lot of behind the scenes and how everything works and all of that kind of stuff on our Instagram. So that's probably where you want to go. If you want to actually learn more about me, if you want to just shop the brand, makuthelabel.com. Amy (28:36) Last question, what is your favourite item to design? Maku (28:40) Dresses -- or pants, no, pants. I love a good trouser, especially because I'm a tall girl. So I like to design trousers that actually touch the floor. Amy (28:52) Perfect. Well, thank you for that and best of luck. I'm so excited to see where Maku, the label, continues to grow. Maku (28:59) Thank you. Amy Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

March 23, 2026Episode 6839 min

What Happens After a $47M Exit? Phillip Di Bella on What Success Really Is

Summary Phillip Di Bella built one of Australia's most successful coffee businesses, and sold it for $47 million. In this episode, we find what it actually felt like the day after he sold, how his definition of success has changed over the years, and what the next generation needs to hear about work and leadership. This isn't just a story about building and selling a business, it's about what success really costs, and what's actually worth chasing. Guest Phillip Di Bella is an Australian entrepreneur and founder of Di Bella Coffee and The Coffee Commune. He is also a mentor, speaker and advocate for innovation and collaboration in the hospitality industry. Overview Phillip Di Bella is the founder of Di Bella Coffee, which he launched in Brisbane in 2002 with just $5,000 and scaled into one of Australia's largest specialty coffee brands. After selling the business for $47 million, Phillip could have stepped away. Instead, he doubled down on building community, mentoring entrepreneurs, and reshaping what success looks like. In this episode of Really Good Conversations, Phillip shares the emotional impact of selling a business with your name on it, the cost of relentless growth, and how he lost 80kg to take his life back after burnout. He challenges the hype around startup exits, investment culture, and the "get rich quick" narrative flooding social media. You'll hear his views on leadership, resilience, and what today's business owners need to understand about patience, failure, and building something that lasts. Key takeaways What it really felt like to sell a business for $47 million and why Phillip asked for the cheque, not a bank transfer The personal cost of growth: burnout, weight gain, and what he changed after the exit Phillip's definition of success today and why it has nothing to do with status or stuff Why the next generation is being sold the wrong version of ambition Startup myths, VC hype, and what founders should focus on before chasing investment The importance of meaningful conversations, with others, and with yourself The one piece of advice that changed the direction of Phillip's life For more information: The Coffee Commune https://www.coffeecommune.com.au/ Private Coffee Collection https://privatecollection.coffee/ Transcript Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Phillip Di Bella, entrepreneur, mentor, and one of the most recognised names in Australian coffee. He started Di Bella Coffee in 2002 with just $5,000 and built it into Australia's largest specialty coffee brand, later selling it for $47 million. He's done what many dream of, but instead of stepping away, he stayed active, launching the Coffee Commune and mentoring the next generation. In this episode, we unpack what really drives him and what future game changers need to hear. Welcome to the podcast, Phillip! Phillip (01:09) Thanks for having me. Amy (01:27) Thank you so much for giving us your time today, because I'm really excited about this conversation. And as I've mentioned to you offline is, you know, to tap into a little bit of behind the scenes, a bit more of your brain and what makes you tick from the journey that you have been on. Because ultimately you have done something that, you know, many people are striving to do in business, launch a product, build a business, sell it, sell it for millions and sail off into the sunset on a mega yacht, never needing to work again. Phillip (01:43) If only. Amy (01:53) And you haven't exactly done the latter part, but what I wanted to tap into, because I think people, whether they do start something with that end in mind and if it is the selling or whatever. But if you could take us back to 2014 for just a moment when you did sell the business, how did that actually feel when that went through, that sale, for you? What was it almost like, the next day, to realise that is something you've exited? Phillip (02:09) It's a sign of relief, it really is. I think it's a combination of emotions. You know, a bit of anxiety kicks in, the unknown territory, a bit of disappointment, you know, you're handing over the keys to something that you've built from scratch. But ultimately, when you look at it and you go, hey, I've been able to build something quite remarkable, I've been able to look after people along the way. I've been able to, obviously now I can set my family up, which was very important with me being, my background being Italian, to set my kids up and take some money off the table because since 2002 right till you sell, you've got an amount of risk. You've got money on the line, you've got debts, you've got all sorts of stuff. So relief is probably, if you said sum it up in one word, relief. Business is relentless. It's even more relentless today than what it was in 2014, and we can sure unpack that. But because business is relentless when you're an owner and people say, what hours do you work? Well, you never stop working when you own a business. And it doesn't matter whether it's a micro business or a medium business or a small business or a large business, an owner of a business never stops working. The brain's always ticking and it is relentless. I'll keep saying that word. And so in summary, the one word that sums it all up when you finally exit and you know, and I, they wanted to direct debit the money into my account. And I said, no, I want the traditional checks. So I made them present checks and I took a photo of them on the table and you know, it was a bit of old school. The first thing that came to mind was relief. Relief because I was able to set my family up, set myself up and it was a validation of, you know, taking a punt, going out into a challenging world of coffee in 2002 with 2000 competitors, several of them billion dollar companies, several hundred million dollar companies, us being a startup with 5000k. Then growing to be Australia's largest specialty coffee company, which means, you know, it's manufacturing and supplying only into cafes, is that concept of specialty coffee. We had 11 % market share of supply into cafes, which gives you an idea of size. We built a prolific brand, we had an amazing team. It was just relief. Amy (04:21) And were there any points through the actual journey that stand out of times of just thinking, I don't know if I want to keep doing this? You know, some of my friends and fellow business owners, we're often talking and voice noting being like, what are we doing? Why did we choose this path? Maybe we'll just go get a job. Phillip (04:38) Yeah, look, all the time, you know, there's no secrets. I started the company in 2002, I was quite healthy, and fit over the years, before you knew it, I'd put on, you know, when I exited completely through the earn out and the whole lot and handed over the keys officially in 2017, I was weighing 167kg. I'd been traveling three weeks a month, I didn't have any work life balance or harmony, something I talk about now. And, you know, I look back and I go, it would have been much easier working for wages and it would have been much easier working for somebody else. And that's not a bad thing. That's why I made sure that all 130 plus of my staff loves coming to work and they've felt integral to the business, because the work team and staff are important and not everybody can be a business owner, but a business owner can't operate without the right people that are dedicated to the cause that are vested emotionally into the vision of the business. So I wanted to build a workplace that people felt a part of that success and the motto has always been, the more you do for the business, the more the business will do for you in terms of time off, pay, whatever, workplace flexibility, bonuses. The more you put into the business, the more the business will put back into you because I didn't want them to feel just like a staff member or team member because I didn't want to just show up as a staff member or team member into another organisation. But that whole saying where they say we do today really hard things so that tomorrow can be easier is something that I talk about. Everything was very difficult from 2002 to say 2014, difficult in different ways. From startup to growth to then being Australia's largest to maintaining that, to continuing the growth. But I look back and I go without that journey and without what happened there, I wouldn't be where I am today, which is, again, my kids are set up. My daughter starts university today, turns 18 in a couple of days' time. My boy's in grade 11, he's 16, just got his learners, able to buy him a new car. It really comes back to now, you know, sitting there and being grateful and looking back and going, I'm 50, I'm the fittest and healthiest I've ever been. My kids are in a great position and set up well. I'm personally in a good space. And you know, that's where gratefulness and reflecting is so important to look back and go, I wouldn't be where I am and who I am today, had I not traveled that journey from a young age. And not just from starting a business, because my journey started nine years before that, working for somebody else, which started before that at university, which started before that growing up as a son of migrants, learning good values and work ethic and how to win with people, something that a lot of people forget today. Something that I instil into my kids, grades are good, but winning with people and a good work ethic will always beat your grades. So make sure that, you know, that to me is the trifecta. Something I instil in my kids, something that I instil in my team, is that you need that whole person in terms of their work ethic. So what I talk about now, mindset, skill set, heart set. They're the three key elements and that's something that was important to me to bring, whether I was working for somebody for nine years or when I became an employer to instil into my team. Have the right heart set, the right mindset and the right skillset. Amy (07:41) Yeah, perfect. And something that we are going to touch on today, which I'm keen to dig into is this sort of, the upcoming generations. But before I ask you that, I did just want to check and you mentioned, you know, money. How has your definition of success changed over the years? You know, from the beginning, was it -- right, well, I just want to make as much money as possible. But again, now you're at that other end and you ultimately, as you said, have created that secure financial future. How do you think that topic of money success has evolved over the years? Phillip (08:10) Great question, Amy, and I'll frame it in two ways. Firstly, my relationship with money being a son of migrants and seeing my parents bring a family up on $450 a week, you make sacrifices. So there's no brand new car. There's no air conditioning. There's only one TV. But Mum and Dad had paid off their house within 10 years of arriving in Australia. All the money got spent on good food, good times, barbecues around the table, barbecues at the beach, no fancy holidays, no fancy cars. They covered what mattered. And that was a safe house and accommodation, great food on the table and great company. So bringing it back to the value. So growing up, my relationship with money was to have enough to do what I want when I want. To me, money was a resource to buy freedom. It was a resource to be able to buy a brand new car, which is why I love cars, to be able to fly anywhere in the world at the front of the plane anytime. So my relationship with money growing up wasn't about materialism and possessions. It was about, you know, being able to amplify what my parents couldn't do. We had a beautiful, a basic house, but beautiful, safe, big yard, cul-de-sac, grew up in a nice area. We had amazing food on the table, but there were a lot of things you couldn't have. There weren't any overseas holidays. There weren't frequent holidays, but every weekend we'd be at the beach with relatives and friends. So it really is prioritising what mattered. That upbringing instilled in me values that then I said, if I want to amplify the car I drive or amplify the holiday I have or amplify the restaurant I go to, I need to go and do something. I need to go and make something of myself. And that's where that ambition and drive came to be the master of your own destiny. That was the groundwork. That was the fire in the engine. It was never about materialism. It was never about being somebody. It was never about ego or emotion for the wrong reason. As you fast forward, and of course, we started, did really well and all the rest of it. I talk about now and I fast track for people to understand, that to me, that success is now a triangle. At the top is health and it's non-negotiable. And on the other axis is time and money. So if you are in great health and you have enough time and enough money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. It's not about the car you drive. It's not about the restaurant you go to. It's not about the wine you drink. It's not about the handbag you carry. You know, I look at my parents and go -- super successful. My dad's 89. My mum's about to turn 82 on the weekend. You know, I'm fortunate to still have them around. They're in their eighties. They're not as healthy as they could be right now, but they've been quite healthy up to now, but they've had enough time and money to do what they want when they want. Dad didn't want to go back to Italy and travel. He sent Mum back two or three times. You know, he always made sure there was enough money to pay for, you know, my sister's wedding and my brother's wedding and stuff like that, family gatherings. There was always great food on the table. They had enough time and money to do what they wanted when they wanted that mattered to them. So I put them in the same category of success as somebody who might have a lot more money, but if they don't have the time, then they're not successful. And I've seen a lot of people that have money, but they don't have their health or time. I've seen a lot of people that are healthy, but don't have time or money. I've seen people that have time and health, but don't have money. To me, what I've learned, and the key takeaway for people, is that if you have your health and you have enough time and money to do what you want when you want, then you are successful. But it's identifying what you want, what matters to you, not what somebody else thinks or it's not about materialism. I always talk about, and hopefully it goes on my tombstone one day, life is measured in moments. Amy (11:50) Oh, I love that. Phillip (11:58) Because there's no removalist truck following a hearse to a funeral. We don't go to a funeral and we unfortunately see the hearse out the front. We don't see a removalist truck behind it, carrying the possessions with them. So, when somebody gets up and talks about a eulogy, the eulogy is all about the moments that people have shared, not about things. These are things that matter to me. Amy (12:13) Brilliant. And you've seen, you've just got me thinking as you've been talking, do you see sometimes a difference perhaps in the people that you mentor that those had the more modest financial upbringing, they got more drive and hunger to go and get that ambition than perhaps those people who basically just had everything available and on a plate? Do you ever see that distinction? Phillip (12:32) Yeah, of course. And I would say, wouldn't say everybody, but I would say nine in ten or eight in ten. It makes sense. And the theory behind it is, if you've come from that, you've got a softer landing. And there is always going to be, in my opinion, and for what I've seen, there's always going to be a different level of determination and hunger in somebody whose worst case scenario is not as good as somebody else's worst case scenario. That's just the way the ecosystem works, right? I love boxing and I box because I like the training, not so much the actual fighting. And I've had a lot to do with boxers. And if you look at the boxers and you study the best boxers in the world, most of them, again, not all of them, but eight out of ten, all come from a really harsh upbringing. They all come from an upbringing that was just terrible. And you analyze that data and you go, well, what is it? And it is -- when they need to dig deep, when they're getting dragged through the trenches in that ring, the person who's rock bottom is a lot harder than somebody else is going to dig deeper. That's no different in business, in the person who's rock bottom in business…is going to be a lot more driven, a lot more dedicated and focused than somebody whose rock bottom is not. And again, it's not everyone, it's not 100%. There's going to be abnormalities in that, but eight out of ten, I would say there is a difference. Amy (13:47) Yeah, brilliant. And you touched on, you know, some of the younger generations that are now coming up the ranks and maybe, you know, whether they're in education or thinking onto their business careers. But, you know, I feel like there's a lot of noise and especially on the likes of social media, about a lot of the get rich quick schemes and, know, don't work a day in your life if it's not something that you love. And, you know, it seems to be that there's now, whether it's the build something, get investment, exit fast or make $100k in a month in your sleep or nothing. What's your sort of view on this for these, shall we say, younger listeners and generations about that approach to business? Phillip (14:23) Something I see that doesn't fail is two things. One, the common denominator of success is doing what other people are not prepared to do, putting yourself in that position to do what other people are not prepared to do, pushing harder, faster, whatever it is, normally leads to more success. And if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. We only ever hear about the quick overnight successes, but do we hear about the 95 % that have failed? The hospitality industry, one in ten cafes closed last year. You look on the socials or you look at the media and you'll see the top 1% that are performing well. And people go, the cafe industry is booming -- because for whatever reason, shame, or there's not just enough attention brought on. What about the ones that have done it tough? What about the ones that have had a go but have failed? And a lot of them haven't failed because of their own issues or problems. It's economy based or they've been given the wrong advice or they haven't surrounded themselves with the right people. But for every one story you hear that's amazing, there'll be ninety nine that have failed. And it just proves that if it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Like I said in the opening, not everyone can be an employer. Richard Branson says it best, and I was lucky enough to spend a week at Necker Island many years ago with Richard Branson, talking about a lot of stuff. But one of the things he talks about is an intrapreneur. You know, don't ever forget the person that works within your business that has entrepreneurial capability. If you want, and from that I took was something, the strategy that I've always implemented. I want people good enough to own their own business, but I've got to give them a reason not to. So if I want people that are good enough to own their own, I've got to give them a reason to stay. Now that's the intrapreneur in an organisation. So this whole thing coming back to the question of, you know, everyone should do it, don't work a day in your life. Well, it doesn't make any sense. It's a lot easier now in certain industries to stand out from the crowd, with different resources, social media, the acceleration of AI, all this sort of stuff. It's opened up a lot of opportunities, but for every opportunity that's opened up, there's been a lot that have closed down. I always say that one of the best podcast ideas, here's one for you listeners, would be a podcast where it's just about stories that have failed. Because there's so much wisdom in something not working. Imagine a podcast series where we're talking to people -- and I actually, it's not being a sadist or a narcissist, I actually like talking to people that, where stuff has gone wrong, with great respect, but to learn, to fast track my learning of what went wrong, how did it go wrong? What was the turning point? What didn't you see that was coming? And in hope that I get to protect myself and my mindset and I can learn from that and go, well, how do I make sure that I don't follow that? I don't know of any podcast that exist that just focuses on negative stories. And not because it's negative, it's just because there's so much wisdom, so much knowledge in a series like that. Amy (17:13) Absolutely. Well, now you've brought that to the topic, I'll go off piste of my notes then. Can you share with us some moments that stand out along your journey that were like -- it was perhaps considered a failure at the time that it happened? Phillip (17:14) Yeah, well, my weight was a failure, right? We're told that, you know, we can have it all. We can't have it all. You can't have a perfect, healthy body, a great relationship with your wife and kids and run a massive business that's accelerating, you know, year on year at over 60 to 80% year on year. You just can't do it, because you can't allocate the time that the family needs, the time that your body needs and the time that a business needs to have everything working in perfection. And so what I learnt from that, through failure, through putting on 80kg -- I'm 80kg lighter now than what I used to be -- I now take all school holidays off so I can spend time with the kids. What I learned through that is, you've got to prioritise what matters to you at the time that it's happening. And if you're starting a business, that's going to be a priority, but don't forget your family and yourself. If you're going through illness or sickness, don't forget your business and your family. Try and make all three work as harmonious as possible. Right? That was something I learned as a life lesson. You know, something that I learned in business, made mistakes, was so focused on front end growth, so focused on pushing the sales team across the country, that we forgot about the accounting system. We forgot about the systems and procedures in the backend. And all of a sudden in 2010, we blew up our accounting system, you know, and that was QuickBooks at the time. And, you know, accounting systems were way different 16 years ago to what they are now. The capability wasn't the same. And imagine blowing up your accounting system that runs all of your invoicing and your accounts receivables and accounts payable, you know, and then we had to go from QuickBooks to SAP. Now that's like going from a bloody, you know, Commodore to a Formula One car. It's just different, the amount of training, the amount of cost and the amount of everything. And the lesson I learned out of that is that when you grow, plan for your growth twelve months in advance. You know, so know where you are now and where you want to be in twelve months and put your systems and your processes and your skills capability and your workforce into the spot that you need to be in twelve months, not where you are today. Because otherwise you're working reactively, not proactively. And that was a key takeaway. So there's been lots of lessons learnt along the way, investing in the wrong people, investing in ideas instead of people. Made that error when I exited, got a bit excited, invested in a few businesses. Luckily, a couple of them have made more than made up for the others that were lost. But lesson learned was, don't invest in good ideas, invest in good people with good ideas. That was a real key takeaway. Lost hundreds of thousands of dollars investing in the wrong people, even though the idea was good. Amy (20:04) And then, you know, where you're mentioning there -- investment -- does feel, there's often this, glamorising investment. Especially people who are starting a business or in those early years, and founders can often be chasing getting investment as opposed to perhaps focusing on some of the foundations and customers. What do you think of that sort of glamorised world of investment these days? Phillip (20:27) Yeah, I think it's a great question because I deal with different businesses. It depends what business you're building. I'm a big believer where possible businesses should be bootstrapped. I don't believe in people going out to get financial investment and they're paying themselves $250,000 a year. They get too comfortable. I mean, I was never in the top three paid people in my organisation ever. Even at the Commune now, I'm still probably the third or fourth highest paid person in the organisation. Amy (20:52) Well, you don't need the money anymore. Phillip (20:55) Yeah, but it's the philosophy that I've always used. And I mean, I'm still running a commercial venture. I'm still running it and bootstrapping it, as in, putting the money back into it to return it and churn it. I'm a big believer where possible, but there are some businesses that you can't do that. There's some businesses, especially in tech space and that, that you do have to accelerate quickly and you do have to maximise the opportunity. And in that space, then yeah, you do need to go out to market and say, right, what investment do I need? But I talk about investment and I'm part of different things like Get Ahead is a fast growing recruitment tool that's like Tinder for employment. The actual owners of Tinder are shareholders in it as well. It's called Get Ahead. They're the people that walk around interviewing people, "What do you do and how much do you get paid?", and you know, they're growing massively. So when I worked with Sam and he approached me on investing, I said you need to make sure that all investors are functional investors. They need to bring something to the table besides money. So I'm a firm believer that if you're going out to market to raise capital, that the person bringing capital to the table has to bring more than just money to the table. You know, they have to bring convenience. They have to bring expertise. They have to bring a network of knowledge, hopefully all of those, but at least two of those besides money. It's something that I'm really key about when it comes to now looking at any opportunity that I invest in and looking at it. But again, you know, make sure I'm investing with a person with a great idea and make sure that they need more than just my money, they need other things that I have to offer. Amy (22:24) That's brilliant, I love that. And the thing -- I've got some quick fire questions for you as well -- but you talk about now where you are, 50, healthy, fit, financially free, but where does that really begin? You briefly talked about it at the start of this podcast to go think about actually more to your youth and some of the things you did. Phillip (22:44) Yeah, look, where does it begin? I think it begins in mindset, it begins in forward thinking. I've always been, I look back now and I can say this, I didn't know this at the time -- I've been quite a visual person. I'm a visual person. There's a joke that people say Phil doesn't read instructions. He'll open a box and throw the instructions away. I'm a visual learner. I've got an ability to visualise stuff. As I said, my parents were great, great role models. My brother's thirteen years older than me. My sister's eleven years older than me. I've got cousins that are in their seventies. So I've grown up around a very good family with good values. And I've been able to watch and learn from what they do, what they've done well and what they could have done better. And I think that's where it all started in the mindset of visualising the life I wanted and visualising the life I wanted to give my kids. But if you said, where does it start? It starts with the values that are instilled in you. Now, don't get me wrong. I had a very good upbringing. But if there's people that have had a very bad upbringing. And what they learn is, I'm going to make sure I've learned what not to do. So they say, somebody that's had a bad upbringing will either follow the same footsteps or be completely different. Right? Because they'll either look at it and go, this is all I know, copy it, or they'll look at it and go, this is not who I want to be, be different. So I think we do undervalue the concept of upbringing and who we are as people. But the point I really want to hone in there is, just because you had a bad upbringing is not an excuse to be an a**hole now. You have that choice to look at that and go, I'm not gonna be that person. When I looked at the person I worked for as a boss, I was like, I'm not going to be that person. When I go and open my own business, I'm gonna be the best possible leader that I can. I'm gonna be inclusive, I'm gonna reward great behaviour. I'm gonna reprimand bad behaviour in terms of, I'm going to point it out. But 90% of the time, I'm gonna tell them how great they are when they're being great, pull them into line 10% that I need, but I'm gonna hold myself to a higher standard than anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I'm harder on me than I am on anybody else. I'm gonna make sure that I lead by example. I'm gonna make sure that I communicate what my vision is. I communicate what the parameters are, right? And I'm supportive and I'm standing right beside my team to help them and elevate them. That when we hit success, it's a we, not an I. We are successful, not I am successful, right, that I'm gonna talk about my team. And there's thousands and thousands of interviews over the years where, you know, I'm constantly talking about the team because they are the crux of what Di Bella was and now what the Commune is becoming. It's all about the quality of the team that you build. But again, you've got to reward them, you know, and reward to them is different to different people. You know, some it's monetary reward, some it's time, some it's, you know, gratitude. There's, as they say, there's five different languages of love. Not everybody's the same. But I suppose the key is where people think, he's just waffling. No, it's meaningful conversations. When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with yourself? When was the last time you had a meaningful conversation with those around you, whether it's your friends, your relatives, your kids, or your people and your workers? I think a lot of people have forgotten the art of meaningful conversation. Amy (25:56) Yeah. Everyone's just sort of rushing around and whether it's in your personal life, in the family home, rushing out the door or colleagues don't have time to give each other feedback or to collaborate on something. We're always in this narrative of, don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time. Phillip (26:11) Everyone's rushing Amy, but no one's got anywhere to get to. That's what I laugh about is, everyone's rushing, but no one knows where they're going. You know, and I say to people, you're in a rush, what for? I'm not sure. Well, you know, and that's why it's so important to seek your outcomes, your destination, what's achievement look like, what does success look like, make it measurable, because rushing, rushing for what? If you don't know what you're rushing for, then what's the purpose, right? Amy (26:35) Yeah, such a good reminder, because I slip into the, always rushing or just always thinking I have more time than I do to get places if anything. Phillip (26:43) People are, you know, one of my pet hates is, "I'm busy". Really? So tell me the most meaningful thing you did in the last 24 hours. And I'll tell you that question stumps people. Yeah. You've been so busy. Tell me the most meaningful thing that you've done in the last 24 hours. What has stood out for you in the last 24 hours that's made an impact on you or somebody around you? Because if you can't remember, you weren't that busy. You're busy doing what? Amy (27:02) Busy for busyness. Before I ask you some of our Really Good Conversation cards, I've got some just quick fire questions to tap a little bit further into your brain, if you will. Obviously you have achieved a hell of a lot of your journey so far, but what if anything still makes you nervous or keeps you up at night? Phillip (27:21) People's expectations and what's happening at the moment. People want more for less, whether that's a customer. They want -- Australia at the moment is whinging about the $6.50 cup of coffee, yet you go to Europe or you go to America and it starts at $8 and their wages are half the price of Australia. So there's food for thought. That's quantifying it with an example. So people's expectations. Workers are no different. I talked about it this morning with my executive manager. I said, since when does everyone start work at nine o'clock? I walked in and people are hoohaaing around and having coffee and then telling me how busy they are. Can't be that busy if you're sitting around drinking coffee, and I got no problems, drink coffee till the cows come home, I mean, that's fine, but don't tell me that, you know, you're busy. You're waltzing around at nine and you're out the door at four o'clock. That's not busy. So that comes down again to an example of people wanting more for less. It doesn't matter whether it's people in the workforce or whether it's customers. So that is a bit of a worrying thing at the moment. Yeah. Amy (28:18) And you have often been in the media on stage on podcasts, etcetera. Do you enjoy being recognized, or do you find it a bit tiring at times? Phillip (28:27) Recognised for the right reasons. I'm quietly, and this will shock listeners, but I'm introverted in new company. So, and people go, explain that. Well, of course, when I'm on a stage or when I'm being interviewed, that's part of your role. I mean, no one wants to listen to somebody who's introverted, shy, and you know, so you bring, it's part of your job, you step up, you go -- but when I say introverted to explain it, if you're having a party and there's a hundred people there or twenty people there or a thousand people there and I don't know most of them, I'm the one that'll walk in quietly and go and you know hug the walls and make my way to the back of the room. Many times been called arrogant because people think he's just being arrogant, well no, because the moment somebody comes to say hello or somebody smiles at you I'll smile back or I'll say hello. So I'm quite introverted but the recognition for me the best recognition is when somebody, and I had this the other day, where somebody will come up to you and go, I came to one of your speeches ten years ago and you told me I was going through some terrible stuff and your advice was, get comfortable with your worst case scenario, use that as your risk management plan and it changed my life. That's the best type of recognition for me. When somebody's actually going, hey, I listened to something you said or I adopted something that you put forward and it changed the way I did something or it helped me in that situation. That to me is impact. So any recognition in the fact that you've had an impact positively on somebody, I'm all for. Recognition for any other reason can be flattering sometimes, but take it or leave it. Amy (29:54) Yeah, love it. What kind of example do you hope your kids take from your journey? Phillip (30:00) That anything you want in life, you strive to attempt and try it yourself. That you don't drag others down to elevate yourself. That if there's somewhere you wanna be or something you wanna do or something you wanna achieve, that you put yourself in the forefront position to make that happen and surround yourself with the right people. Don't ever be the person who drags somebody else down to elevate yourself. Amy (30:20) Love that. And how do you take your coffee? Phillip (30:24) Depends what mood I'm in. If being super healthy, it'll be a half shot long black or a double espresso bit longer. My favorite is an extra hot piccolo. So you can imagine people's dismay when I walk into a cafe and they recognize I'm asking for extra hot piccolo because the traditional barista's like, what do mean extra hot? Can you just make me the coffee the way I like it? Coffee's personal. If somebody wants it extra hot, make it extra hot. You know, if they're paying for it, they're the customer. You don't need to give them a lesson on how coffee should be drunk. Amy (30:50) Have you? Gosh, I mean, if a barista did know who you were, you would be a pretty terrifying customer. Phillip (30:56) Oh, not at all. Amy (30:57) Because it'd be like, my God, I can't get this wrong. Have you ever sent a coffee back? Phillip (31:00) No, I haven't sent a coffee back. It's constructive criticism. I've always given constructive criticism if they ask, but I have not sent a coffee back. There's been a few times I haven't drunk the coffee. Amy (31:13) Well that speaks volumes though. I don't know what's worse! Phillip (31:16) Well, that to me is the job of the waiter to actually say, the wait staff to say, hey, is there a problem? The dialogue to say, well, you know, not so much a problem, but it wasn't made properly or, whatever. I mean, we can deliver any message we want, but in a very respectful manner is something I was always brought up to be respectful. Amy (31:33) Love that. And do you ever just secretly go for instant coffee and not tell anyone? Phillip (31:37) Big fan of instant. If it's the right instant coffee, it has a place. We've got a great instant product at the Coffee Commune on my privatecollection.coffee website. We've sourced an amazing high altitude Arabica instant that tastes like filter coffee. Here's a secret for you listeners. It's the fastest growing category now and it will be for the next three years because of the cost. It's a lot more cost effective. People are struggling with disposable income around the world. It's a global issue. The amount of money they have to spend after all of their obligations and, and needs like insurance and gas and home loans. So instant is rising fast because people will always drink coffee. They'll just change the way they drink it and what they drink. But there is some really good instant on the market. Amy (32:18) That's good to know actually. Has there ever been a conversation that profoundly shaped you or changed the direction of your life? Phillip (32:26) Yes, I was offered a job to go into government when I was finishing my commerce degree and a lot of my family worked in government. So my brother-in-law and I were sitting in a cafe and he's a lot older than me. And I said to him, you know, I've been offered a job to go into government, you know, I've a commerce degree. And he said, you're, I've known you since you were eight years old. He goes, you're not built for working in government. He's been in, he was in government for forty four years. He said, you're not built for government, you've got too much entrepreneurial spirit, you've got too much personality. Yeah, he said, that is the route for you, take it from somebody who's been in government. So my brother-in-law shaped that conversation. I've probably never told him that, but there we go, we're sharing it for the first time. Amy (33:07) That's amazing because in reality to have a job offer coming out of school, education, whatever it may be, would be, we'll take it, it's security, it's comfortable. Phillip (33:23) That's what was being drummed into me by my dad. My dad was saying, you know, go to -- I was the first one to go to university in the family. Go to university, get your degree and go get a good job in government. It was actually being pushed that way. It was my brother-in-law that said, I'm in government. It'll stifle you. It just won't be you. That's some great advice so I wouldn't be where I am. Amy (33:46) Amazing, I absolutely love that. Right, I've got three questions. So those questions weren't even from our packs of cards, they were just other ones that I had prepared, but three questions. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be? Phillip (33:59) Mmm, the ability to see things that others couldn't. To be able to see, you know, I was having an interesting conversation with somebody yesterday about a global conference they went to and they had an AI speaker. And in short, I'll give you the short version. He said at the time there was horses and carts, the people with horses and carts never thought there'd be cars. At the time that there's cars, no one thinks that there's going to be no cars allowed, that they'll all be driverless because humans cannot operate as good as a computer. But people are now shaking their heads going, no, there will never be driverless cars. But the people that were in horses and carriages never thought that there would be cars. So imagine if you had that vision back then to be able to see what other people couldn't see. Amy (34:47) Yeah. And then maybe course correct potentially as well and go, actually, maybe is that a good route for us to be going down as for human society? And look at all the damage and waste we've done over there. Phillip (35:02) Agreed, agreed, you hold a lot of power, Yeah. Hopefully you would use that power for good. Amy (35:06) Yeah. Question number two. Do you have any regrets? And if so, what are they? Phillip (35:11) I don't have any regrets as such. What I could have done much better was look after myself during the journey, health-wise, and be a bit more present for my kids as they grew up. Not a regret because obviously since 2017, I've been able to have all school holidays off and they're now eighteen and sixteen. So that's, you know, nine years ago. So from the age of nine and seven, they got their dad back. But if I had said, how would you do it differently? Look after myself better so that I could be more present for my kids when they were, you know, zero to eight, zero to seven. Amy (35:45) Amazing. And question number three, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations? Phillip (35:52) It's actually Gandhi's wisdom. Be part of the change you want to see in the world. There's a lot of people that want to talk about what they want to see in the world, but they're not prepared to be part of it. And that's Gandhi's words that I talk about quite a lot. A lot of people sit on the fence and want to bark orders and they want change and they want better government, but they're not prepared to do the work. They're not prepared to research what government stands for and they just vote like sheep or they vote based on a message or popularity competition. They don't actually go and listen to the policies or processes or what people stand for, but they're the first ones to whinge about having bad government at whatever level in whatever state and whatever council in whatever country. But be part of the change that you want to see in the world. Amy (36:28) Fantastic. Thank you so much for that. And the last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them? Phillip (36:39) Look, can I have two? Amy (36:41) Go on yep. Phillip (36:43) So Nelson Mandela, and I'd have to ask Nelson Mandela, how did you forgive when anger would have been much easier? Because we all get caught up in those emotional states where our first go-to is anger. How did you actually forgive when the go-to could have been anger to fuel your existence? And the other one would be Jesus Christ, and that would be, did humanity actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Because you don't have to be biblical, you can be of any faith. So replace Jesus Christ with whatever faith you follow. But did that leader of that faith, did humans actually understand your message or did we complicate it? Amy (37:29) Yes. Wow. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for everything you have shared today. We honestly could talk for hours and hours about various different parts of your world, your journey and the lessons that you've learned along the way. So really appreciate everything that you have shared. And we've only even touched briefly on the Coffee Commune. So give a shout out to our listeners for where people can find out more about your world or any things you're doing this year. Phillip (37:54) Yeah, so the Coffee Commune, coffeecommune.com.au, we're Australian first concept. It's all about accelerating people's potential in the hospitality industry. It's a place where everyone comes to collaborate. It was a place where people said we could never build. We're a facility, so we're a $20m facility where you can manufacture any sort of volume of coffee. And then we're a community that now has over 1,850 members, the largest private community, non-government funded in Australia in hospitality where we're having a lot of impact with advocacy and workshops and education, but everything filters down to helping people accelerate their potential. For those of you that love coffee, I've released a private coffee collection. So privatecollection.coffee is where you can get fresh roasted coffee delivered to your home or office at factory prices. That's my personal thirty odd years of coffee expertise, all in a bag or in many bags, so to speak. So, if you love coffee, big shout out and have a look at that range for your home or office. Amy (38:51) Fantastic. Thank you. It sounds like you've got no signs of slowing down right now. So thank you for everything you shared and look forward to chatting again. Phillip (38:59) Thanks for having me. Amy (39:03) Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it's left you with something to reflect on or talk about beyond this conversation. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, share this episode with a friend, hit subscribe and join us next time.

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