More or Less

Hosted by Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin

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164

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Aug 2026

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About the show

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

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August 21, 202656 min

Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash

Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers. Chapters : 0:00 Episode trailer 1:00 Episode start 4:00 This week in AI 5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter 8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions? 11:00 The agentic commerce bet 14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant 17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz 22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI 26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise 28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies? 30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history” 33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade? 36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism 37:30 Grok enters the AI race 41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable 45:00 The AI data center backlash 47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks” 48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure? 53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers 55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

August 14, 202658 min

Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng

A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters 0:00 Episode trailer 1:24 Episode start 1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital 5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon 7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents 8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust? 11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing 16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat 22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data 27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans 31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk? 34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute 35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates? 39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out? 42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving 47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook 49:14 What actually happened with Airtable 50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing 53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes 54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense 57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspod Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

August 7, 202655 min

Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era

Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 1:07 Episode Start 2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio 3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana 5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back 8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs 10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars 19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons 25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead 27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook 30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs 31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud 35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash 40:53 Why People Still Hate AI 43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem 45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big 48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X 50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma 53:40 Next Week on More or Less We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspod Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

July 31, 202659 min

Zuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down

New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:23 Episode start 9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers 11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands 13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money 15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals 17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic 18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI 21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire 22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company 24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi 26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology 27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance 28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit 29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War 32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started 39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now 46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI 53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning 54:57 Book The Conference Before You're Invited We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtM Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

July 24, 20261 hr 1 min

Did OpenAI Stage Its Own Cyber Incident? | Stripe Buying Paypal, Frontier Model Economics, Peptides

Deep summer check-in from the More or Less squad. Dave is back on Instagram after a year away (thanks to Stagecoach), Jessica reviews Benson Boone's Wanted Man tour, Chris Stapleton's Montana show gets a shoutout, and Sam is traveling with a Yeti cooler full of peptides. Don’t worry, this is still a tech podcast: OpenAI revealed an AI that escaped its testing sandbox and hacked Hugging Face. The crew's hot take is that OpenAI is leaning into the story to strengthen its narrative as revenue growth slows. Then, Stripe could be eyeing PayPal. Sam argues Stripe missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity by staying private instead of using public stock as acquisition currency the way Meta did with WhatsApp. They also explain why agentic commerce still isn't real, despite the hype. Plus, “Peptide Corner” returns with reports from the Hamptons, where peptides have officially gone mainstream, rich people inflation has reached $67 for two cappuccinos and sandwiches, and Sam shares an update on his recovering knee. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 2:07 Dave Returns to Instagram, Sam Turns 43, and More 8:41 OpenAI's AI Escaped Its Sandbox 16:43 The National Guard Analogy 31:57 Sam's Bot Rebellion Theory 37:44 Is Stripe Buying PayPal? 47:48 Why Agentic Commerce Isn't Here Yet 49:40 Peptide Corner 52:53 Rich People Inflation 54:03 Sam's Knee Recovery 56:47 The GLP-1 Playbook We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/460NqsdQm5A Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

July 17, 202650 min

AI Regulatory Capture Bet: Why OpenAI & Anthropic Stopped Competing on Tech

You know we're deep into summer when Jess leaves the pod early to catch Benson Boone... for the eighth time. This week, the More or Less squad revisits the Anthropic and OpenAI IPO speculation. Their views haven't changed, but their AI usage certainly has. Dave ditches Anthropic for GLM 5.2 on cost, while Sam argues the AI model wars are effectively over, and the frontier labs know it, which is why they're spending more time in Washington than competing on model quality. America also gets its first serious open weights model. The squad also unpacks OpenAI's hardware ambitions after its much-hyped device turns out to be... an Alexa speaker. Sam explains why Sam Altman's $8 billion Johnny Ive acquisition was effectively free, thanks to narrative capitalism. Plus: real-time voice AI, passive listening devices, peptides, Hinge's new social proof feature, Jay-Z turning New York into a festival, and why biological age tests are basically the clout score of your body. Chapters : 0:00 Episode Teaser 0:44 Episode Start 2:18 Anthropic IPO This September? 5:29 Dave Dumps Anthropic for GLM 5. 28:22 When Is Better AI Worth Paying For? 12:15 AGI Is Dead, AI Is Political Now 16:15 America's First Open Weights Model By Thinking Machines 21:22 Why Sam Is Depressed About AI 29:07 OpenAI Built... an Alexa? The $8B Johnny Ive Bet 31:38 Silicon Valley Goes Hollywood 36:03 Would You Wear an Always-On Mic? 37:08 OpenAI's Live Voice Model 41:14 Sam's Peptide Experiment 43:36 Hinge Launches “Friend’s Take” 46:11 Jay-Z's NYC Takeover 48:16 Biological Age Is Just a Clout Score We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/B6fO5V09xOc Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

July 10, 202655 min

OpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal?

The full quad is back, unpacking OpenAI's offer to give the U.S. government an equity stake. Sam's take: it's less a marketing win than a distress signal. The squad also debates whether Trump Accounts actually reach everyday Americans (Brit is skeptical), defends MacKenzie Scott from the internet's endless opinions about her philanthropy, and digs into Dave's argument that AI labs are slowly strangling the developer ecosystems that could save them.They also tackle Xbox's identity crisis and whether Microsoft should just sell it, the Nex Playground device (In Sam's words: non-VR Beat Saber for families), why 2026 is shaping up to be extreme nihilism wrapped in Silicon Valley optimism, Brit's take that AI has shifted from revolutionary to evolutionary, and, of course in pop culture corner, Brit claiming full credit for calling the Taylor Swift wedding strategy. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 0:47 Episode Begins 1:10 Fourth of July Recap, Bald Eagles & the No VC Summer 5:10 OpenAI Offered the U.S. Government Equity 11:15 Trump Accounts, Giving Every American Kid a Stake in Capitalism 15:02 Stop Judging MacKenzie Scott's Philanthropy 18:40 AI Labs Are Distressed and Destroying Their Ecosystems 21:50 AI Labs Are Competing With Their Own Developers 35:26 Xbox Is in Trouble, Should Microsoft Sell It? 37:52 Nex, the Quiet Wii Revival Nobody Saw Coming 41:49 Sam's 2026 Prediction: Extreme Nihilism Meets Silicon Valley Optimism 44:04 Vox Americanus Update 46:18 Brit Is Bored of AI. It's Evolution, Not Revolution 48:22 Post-AGI Funds Are a Bad Bet, Physical AI Could Be the Real Revolution 49:27 Going Long on Offline, World Cup, Concerts & Real Life 51:50 Pop Culture Corner: Brit Calls Taylor Swift's Wedding Strategy We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MoreorLessPod Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

July 3, 202654 min

Why Identity Verification Matters For The Internet | Vox Americanus, GLM 5.2, Claude Fable 5 Is Back

The full quad is back just before the Fourth of July. Dave and Sam explain why padel is just pickleball for fancy people, Sam vibe-coded an app to prove you’re actually American on the internet (Vox Americanus is real and you can use it: https://voxamericanus.com), and Dave even nominates Sam for office, even though Sam insists we should fix the job before electing anyone actually good for it. The crew also dives into why non-engineers are more capable than they think in the age of agentic coding, Claude Fable 5’s government clearance “drama” and return, how GLM 5.2 is quietly replacing Opus 4 on real agent stacks, why Anthropic is still printing revenue despite open source pressure, and the case for an open source router.. They wrap with pop culture corner: Taylor Swift wedding intel and Brit’s review of Alpha School. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 0:50 Episode start 1:12 Full Quad Pre-4th of July, Is There Such a Thing as VC Summer? 3:32 Padel Is the New VC Networking Sport, Pickleball Is for the Plebs 9:10 Vox Americanus, Can You Actually Prove You're American Online? 15:25 Should Sam Run for Office? Fix the Job Description First 29:30 Agentic Coding, You're Not Too Late 35:33 Claude Fable 5 Is Back, Government Clearance Drama Explained 41:08 GLM 5.2, Open Source Just Quietly Replaced Opus 4 46:16 Anthropic Still Printing Revenue, The Case for an Open Source Router 47:29 Taylor Swift's Wedding 49:36 Alpha School, Brit's Kids Try AI Education 52:12 America's 250th Birthday We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/zqmbW163QKQ Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

June 26, 202649 min

Chinese AI Model GLM 5.2 Beating Frontier Models | Meta Glasses, Polymarket Scandal, and More AI Talent War

The quad is back. Dave and Brit rejoin Sam and Jess fresh off a More or Less fan encounter at the Zurich airport. It was quite the week for Meta as the squad breaks down the company’s new line of glasses featuring Kylie Jenner (or, in Jess’ words, Kendall), and Brit makes the call that this is finally the watershed moment for women buying smart glasses ( The men seem to be the early adopters, Dave wore his in the Sistine Chapel, and Sam owns 10+ pairs.). Then they get into Meta’s prediction market: a genuinely interesting information machine or a very efficient way to addict twenty-somethings to fake gambling? In true MOL fashion, the squad is split. Sam is all in, Dave is worried it’ll work too well, and Brit thinks it’ll all click when you tie it to The Bachelor. Dave also ran GLM 5.2 on eight Nvidia B200s with some hacker friends and came away shaken. Open source is now matching, if not outperforming, frontier models at 10x the speed, raising uncomfortable questions about the enormous bets sitting on frontier labs today. Remember last year’s AI talent war? It’s back, and Jess argues it’s really an early indicator of investor insecurity. Finally, in pop culture corner: Cannes and Sam’s unsolicited review of The Information's new mobile app. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 0:50 Intro 1:12 MOL Got Recognized at the Zurich Airport 3:02 What’s on the Agenda Today 5:04 Meta Smart Glasses, The Moment Women Finally Buy In? 14:20 Meta’s Prediction Markets, Brilliant or Addictive? 19:39 Polymarket’s Influencer Problem 22:48 AI Talent Wars, Investors Are Reading the Wrong Signals 25:40 GLM 5.2 on Nvidia B200s, Open Source Catches Frontier Models 28:20 AI Token Spend, Sam’s $1,500/Month Experiment 31:04 Sam Reviews The Information App Live 36:17 Anthropic, Dell, and the Math Behind Generational Returns 43:30 Cannes Lions, Worth It or Corporate Boondoggle? We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/dbdH6dPMDxk Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

June 19, 202640 min

Elon Is the Best Financier of Our Generation

Sam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock. Chapters: 00:00 - Teaser 01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis 09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing 12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure 16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges 22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact 25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share 27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation 33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release 35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies 39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book Recommendation We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/ZVD3jS6Lexc Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit