WorkMatters

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Jul 2026

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Work Matters is a podcast for leaders who know that better results do not come from reorganizing boxes, adding technology, or asking people to work harder. They come from redesigning the work itself. Hosted by Thomas Bertels, work design and operating model expert and author of the award-winning business fable "Fixing Work", each episode explores how organizations can improve performance by rethinking how work gets done. Through conversations with leaders, researchers, and thinkers from around the world, Work Matters examines the real challenges facing organizations today: AI-enabled work, operating model redesign, workforce strategy, leadership, employee experience, productivity, governance, organizational change, and the future of management. The show goes beyond generic “future of work” commentary. It focuses on the practical questions leaders need to answer: How should work change when AI can perform tasks, make recommendations, or coordinate activity? Who owns the design of work across HR, IT, operations, and strategy? How do organizations create the capabilities needed to execute their strategy? Why do transformation efforts stall—and what makes change stick? How can leaders build organizations that are more effective, adaptable, and human? Whether you are a CEO, CHRO, operating leader, transformation executive, consultant, or manager trying to make work better, Work Matters offers practical ideas and informed perspectives for designing organizations that can perform in a changing world.

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September 14, 202628 min

You Can Only Align People by Making the Disagreement Visible | Franz-Josef Tillmann

Most leaders treat misalignment as a communication problem: get people talking, and agreement follows. Franz-Josef Tillmann disagrees. He argues that misalignment isn’t a failure to communicate. It’s a collision of what local rationalities — every function in an organization makes sense of the world through its own short-term, functional lens and as a result is optimizing for different things - and no amount of talking changes what someone’s function rewards them for caring about. Tillmann is President and Managing Partner at Metaplan USA, the consultancy behind the Metaplan Method — a structured visual facilitation technique developed in Germany in 1972 by brothers Wolfgang and Eberhard Schnelle. Before Metaplan, he ran global strategic marketing for Johnson & Johnson’s nephrology business and held marketing roles at Schwarz Pharma. Metaplan’s answer is to surface the disagreement before trying to resolve it, starting with getting every perspective on the table before converging on what the group agrees matters most. The signature tool is what Tillmann calls the “flash mark”: a structured way to flag disagreement in the room without it becoming personal, which forces the group to clarify what it actually meant rather than assume an alignment that isn’t there.We get into where this approach applies (multi-stakeholder execution problems, cross-functional initiatives, situations where a leader needs buy-in rather than compliance) and where it doesn’t — when a leader has already decided the outcome and just wants it pushed through. Tillmann is candid that top-down execution has its place. It’s just not alignment.Franz-Josef explains the structural paradox at the center of his work: organizations are optimized for the vertical, which means even the best people, dropped into a cross-functional initiative that cuts against that structure, often underperform anyway. Not because they’re the wrong people. Because the structure was never built to reward what they’re being asked to do. We also talk about why a facilitation method built in the 1970s, using cards and markers instead of software, still works in today's workplace. Key Takeaways - Misalignment usually isn’t a communication failure — it’s a collision of “local rationality,” where each function optimizes for a different, often short-term, definition of success. - You need to surface disagreement before resolving it. Metaplan’s format deliberately diverges — every perspective visible — before converging on shared priorities. - The “flash mark” — a structured way to flag disagreement without making it personal — usually produces clarification, not conflict, because most disagreement turns out to be a misunderstanding of what was actually meant. - Cross-functional leaders are set up to underperform by design — organizations optimize for the vertical (function, department), so even top performers struggle when asked to lead across it. Chapters 00:00 Why functions do not like alignment 00:30 What the Metaplan method actually is 05:41 What problems this technique is built for 07:18 When alignment is the wrong tool: the top-down leader 08:53 Why the questions matter more than the answers 10:29 The flash mark: naming disagreement out loud 12:23 Getting past high-level agreement into the details 13:48 Why most workshops fail after they end 16:31 A 1970s method in the age of AI 20:51 Culture, hierarchy, and adapting across markets 22:30 The cross-functional paradox 25:37 Advice for a leader with one meeting next week Guest Bio Franz-Josef Tillmann is President and Managing Partner at Metaplan USA, where he has led strategic planning, alignment, and change management workshops for global organizations for 25 years. Before Metaplan, he was Director of Global Strategic Marketing for Nephrology at Johnson & Johnson, and held marketing leadership roles at Schwarz Pharma. He holds an MBA from NYU Stern School of Business and a Master of Science from the University of Bayreuth. Website: metaplan.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/fjtillmann

September 2, 202634 min

The Four-Day Week Is a Forcing Function, Not a Perk | Joe O'Connor

The five-day workweek can feel inevitable. But it was designed for an industrial economy—and may no longer make sense for how work gets done today. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Joe O’Connor, CEO of Work Time Revolution and co-author of Do More in Four, about the four-day workweek as a catalyst for redesigning work. Joe argues that reducing working time should not simply be treated as an employee benefit. When tied to clear performance expectations, it can create the incentive organizations need to eliminate low-value activity, rethink workflows, adopt new tools, and focus people on outcomes rather than hours. Thomas and Joe also explore what the rise of AI means for productivity. Will organizations use AI to accelerate an already overloaded workplace—or to remove clutter and give people more capacity for creativity, judgment, and meaningful work? In this episode, you’ll learn: - Why the five-day workweek may be poorly suited to knowledge work - How a four-day week can create employee engagement in work redesign - Why hours worked are an increasingly unreliable measure of productivity - Why autonomy must be paired with accountability - Why organizations need a clear narrative about the purpose, boundaries, and benefits of AI Key themes Work design, operating model redesign, future of work, AI adoption Key Takeaways - The five-day week is a Henry Ford-era design choice, not a productivity law — built for factory output, not knowledge work. - A shorter week works as a forcing function: the promise of it motivates redesign, the process breaks time-based habits, and the recovery compounds performance afterward. - The AI backlash toward 996 schedules and presence-as-commitment misreads where value is headed — volume-based work is what’s being automated, so leading for value beats leading for hours logged. - It only sticks when autonomy and accountability are both present. Freedom without ownership, or ownership without the power to remove blockers, and it collapses. - Most organizations don’t have real measures for knowledge work. A shorter week forces that overdue conversation instead of letting it stay overdue. Guest Bio Joe O’Connor is CEO and co-founder of Work Time Revolution, a consulting and research firm focused on redesigning work for the AI era. He pioneered the world’s first coordinated four-day workweek pilot in Ireland in 2020, then led the large-scale trials across the UK, North America, and Australasia as CEO of 4 Day Week Global. He is co-author, with Jared Lindzon, of Do More in Four (Harvard Business Review Press, January 2026). He also advises on AI adaptation with Splendid Torch. Website: worktimerevolution.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/joeoconnor990 Episode Overview 00:00 Is AI here to speed up work, or slow it down? 03:03 The five-day week is a habit, not a law 04:16 Why hours and output no longer correlate 07:11 The productivity case for a shorter week 09:39 Case study: how Unilever made it stick 11:16 The 996 backlash — and what it misunderstands 15:58 Is the four day work week a one-way door? 18:22 What has to change in how the work gets done? 21:30 The knowledge-work measurement problem 24:48 What does it take to implement? 26:46 When four-day pilots get reversed 30:25 How to get started this quarter

July 6, 202649 min

Why AI Adoption Requires Work Design, Not Just Technology | Sergio Caredda

In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Sergio Caredda about why AI is forcing organizations to confront a much deeper issue: no one really owns work design. HR owns roles and skills. IT owns systems and platforms. Operations owns processes. Strategy owns intent. But as AI begins to reshape tasks, decisions, capabilities, accountability, and governance, organizations need a more integrated way to design work. Sergio argues that AI adoption is not just a technology implementation or a change management exercise. It requires operating model redesign, decision governance, and a clearer “grammar” of work. Organizations need to understand what work is, how decisions are made, where human judgment is required, and who is accountable when algorithms or agents start making decisions that affect customers, employees, and business outcomes. The conversation also explores why traditional responses — a new C-suite role, a center of excellence, or a project office — are not enough. Work design is a transversal problem - it cuts across HR, IT, operations, strategy, and management. The answer is not another box on the org chart, but a persistent design authority with real mandate, governance, and measurement. Ultimately, this episode is about AI, but it is also about something more fundamental: organizations cannot redesign work with tools alone. They need to understand the work itself. In this episode, we discuss: • Why AI predictions often confuse jobs with tasks • Why treating AI as an IT implementation misses the bigger design problem • Why capability does not have a clear institutional home in most organizations • Why HR owns skills, but not necessarily enterprise capabilities • Why organizational design may need a basic grammar of work • What a persistent design authority for work could look like • Why leaders need to use AI themselves to understand its implications • How organizations can start by auditing their most important value chains • Why work design is becoming urgent, not just important Key themes : Work design, operating model redesign, organizational design, decision rights, algorithmic accountability, capabilities, HR transformation, future of work, AI adoption, management, governance Memorable idea: AI is not just changing tasks. It is exposing the fact that most organizations do not have a clear owner for how work is designed, governed, and measured. Guest Bio: Sergio works at the intersection of organization design, HR, work design, and AI-enabled transformation. A senior HR leader with more than 25 years of international experience, he helps organizations translate strategy into operating models where human work creates value through the integrated disciplines of organization design, capability building, talent development, and technology adoption. He currently serves as Interim CHRO at Campari Group, where he leads one of the more mature HR AI adoption programs in European FMCG, with more than 40 active AI use cases and a close partnership with the CIO on AI capability building. This work has been recognized by SAP with a European Innovation Award. Sergio is known for building high-performing HR teams that operate as true business partners, and for his ability to connect business strategy, people strategy, operating model, and technology into one coherent system. His perspective is that AI transformation cannot be treated as a technology rollout alone. It requires an end-to-end view of work, organization, leadership, and capability — which is where senior HR leadership can make a distinctive contribution. He writes regularly on organization design, leadership, and the future of work at sergiocaredda.eu, and is currently writing The Intentional Work Trilogy on organization design . Sergio previously joined Work Matters to discuss the intentional organization. Connect with Sergio: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiocaredda/ Website: https://sergiocaredda.eu Substack: https://newsletter.sergiocaredda.eu 00:00 AI Job Loss Hype 01:10 Tasks Versus Jobs 02:57 AI As General Tech 06:19 Who Owns Work Design 09:21 Accountability And Governance 14:49 Persistent Design Authority 16:43 Campari’s Digital Twin Experiment 24:40 No Quick Wins Mindset 27:26 Work Design and Managers 31:49 Employees and Job Fear 36:36 Rethinking Change Management 42:20 CEO 90 Day Playbook 45:42 Value Chains and Human Glue

June 22, 202636 min

AI Adoption Is Not the Goal. Work Redesign Is. | Andy Spence

Everyone is talking about the future of work. But much of the conversation is filled with buzzwords, vendor language, and overly simple predictions about what AI will do to jobs, organizations, and HR. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Andy Spence about what is real, what is hype, and what leaders should actually be paying attention to as AI changes the way work gets done. The conversation starts with a lightning round on some of today’s most common future-of-work ideas: agentic recruiting, skills-based organizations, talent marketplaces, and leaderless organizations. Andy argues that some of these ideas are real, but none of them should be accepted uncritically. Agentic recruiting, for example, is not entirely new. It is part of a longer history of using chatbots, algorithms, video tools, and data in hiring. Skills-based organizations are useful in some contexts, but skills are only one factor in determining whether someone will succeed in a role, team, or organization. From there, Thomas and Andy explore AI’s impact on work and the labor market. Andy argues that it is too simplistic to look at one task that AI can perform and conclude that an entire job or profession will disappear. Work is more complex than that. Tasks get unbundled and rebundled in new ways across employees, freelancers, platforms, automation, agents, and external partners. That rebundling process may be one of the most important shifts leaders need to understand. The episode then turns to work design. Andy and Thomas discuss how the discipline of organization design and work design has faded in many companies — just when it is needed most. Traditional org charts and spreadsheets are not enough to answer today’s questions about how work should be structured, sourced, automated, coordinated, and measured. As organizations introduce AI, agentic systems, internal talent marketplaces, freelancers, and new operating models, leaders need a much broader view of work design. The conversation also explores HR transformation. Andy argues that reducing administration does not automatically make HR strategic. Without proactive changes to the people, skills, mindset, and capabilities inside HR, the function often ends up with less admin but not necessarily more strategic impact. Ultimately, this episode is about how leaders can move beyond the AI hype and think more seriously about the future of work. Technology will matter. But the organizations that succeed will be the ones that redesign work intentionally, build the right human capabilities, use data wisely, and connect HR strategy directly to business outcomes. In This Episode, We Discuss • Why agentic recruiting is real, but not entirely new • The limits of skills-based organizations and skills taxonomies • The promise and mixed results of internal talent marketplaces • Why leaderless organizations are unlikely to eliminate the need for human accountability • How AI is forcing us to rethink what leadership actually is • Why work design may be due for a renaissance • How HR technology can reinforce outdated work models • Why “AI adoption” is the wrong goal for organizations • Why HR transformation requires more than automation and admin reduction • What capabilities HR leaders need to build now • How successful HR functions enable self-empowered teams Key Themes AI and work, future of work, agentic recruiting, skills-based organization, talent marketplaces, work design, organization design, HR transformation, CHRO strategy, HR technology. Guest Bio Andy Spence is a leading voice in workforce and talent strategy, with more than 20 years of experience advising global organizations and the C-suite on how to build people-centric, future-ready organizations. His career spans Big 4 consultancies, start-ups, and his own advisory firm, working with clients including the NHS, John Lewis Partnership, Novartis, Deloitte, and CIPD. Andy publishes the Work 3 Newsletter, read by more than 30,000 professionals each week. Known for turning global megatrends into practical insight, Andy helps HR leaders design talent models fit for a rapidly changing world. Connect with Andy Work 3 Newsletter: https://wrk3.substack.com LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewspencehrtransformation/ Future of Work Speaker Profile: https://workforcefuturist.substack.com/p/workforce-futurist-speaker-profile 00:00 AI Adoption Is Not The Goal 02:13 Lightning Round 05:32 What Future Of Work Means 09:08 AI Myths And Human Value 13:57 Work Design Renaissance 16:53 Why HR Tech Is Outdated 19:19 CHRO Capabilities And Megatrends 23:37 Resetting The People Function 27:34 What Makes HR Transformation Work 30:51 People Analytics Ethics And KPIs

June 8, 202646 min

Stop Treating Complex Problems Like Engineering Problems | Boudewijn Bertsch

Many organizations are built around the assumption that problems can be analyzed, controlled, and solved through cause and effect. That assumption works well when the problem is clear or complicated. It is far less useful when the problem involves people, culture, leadership, relationships, change, or uncertainty. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Boudewijn Bertsch about the Cynefin framework, developed by Dave Snowden, and how it helps leaders make sense of different types of problems. Cynefin distinguishes between domains such as clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused. Each domain requires a different way of thinking, deciding, and acting. Boudewijn explains why the dominant management narrative has been shaped by the industrial revolution and the machine metaphor. As a result, many organizations try to force complex human problems into ordered systems of control, accountability, optimization, and best practice. But when the challenge is complex, context matters, outcomes cannot be guaranteed, and leaders need to learn through safe-to-explore experiments. The conversation explores what this means for AI adoption, performance management, leadership, organizational change, and the way we treat people at work. Thomas and Boudewijn discuss why people are not simply resources, why fear undermines experimentation, why leaders need to open collective intelligence, and why the work of management increasingly requires facilitation, sense making, and the ability to navigate uncertainty. Ultimately, this episode is about learning to diagnose the type of problem before choosing the solution. In a complex world, the answer is often not something a leader already has. It is something the organization discovers together. In this episode, we discuss: • What Cynefin is and why Dave Snowden describes it as a framework, not a model • The five Cynefin domains: clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused • Why modern management is shaped by cause-and-effect thinking • How organizations accidentally make complex problems worse by forcing them into ordered systems • Why leadership, culture, relationships, and human performance are complex • How to use safe-to-explore experiments in complex environments • Why fear, punishment, and traditional accountability can block experimentation • How AI adoption can be approached through multiple experiments and learning loops • The limits of performance reviews and linear rating systems • Why organizations need to lead interactions, not just individuals • How leaders can use collective intelligence to make sense of complex problems • Why leadership style should depend on context • What to do when a team is confused or facing chaos • How to get started by asking better “we” questions Key themes: Cynefin, complexity, sensemaking, leadership, management, organizational culture, human complexity, safe-to-explore experiments, collective intelligence, performance management, AI adoption, accountability, uncertainty, organizational change, complex adaptive systems Memorable idea: In complex work, the answer is not something leaders can simply analyze their way toward. It is something people discover through context, collective intelligence, and safe-to-explore experiments. Guest Bio: Boudewijn Bertsch works with individuals, teams, and executives on how to bring out the best in themselves and others. Trained as a business economist and sociologist, he draws on neuroscience, systems and complexity science, somatics, evolutionary psychology, and biology to help leaders work more effectively in complex environments. Over the past 35 years, Boudewijn has worked with leader around the world. He is a certified somatic leadership coach, a former assistant professor at Erasmus University Rotterdam, and a longtime executive education faculty member and advisor to organizations. Boudewijn is co-editor and contributing author of Cynefin: Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World. Connect with Boudewijn: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boudewijn-bertsch-3b79a54a/ Cynefin Wiki: https://cynefin.io/wiki/Main_Page The Cynefin Co: https://thecynefin.co/ Book: Cynefin - Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World https://thecynefin.co/library/cynefin-weaving-sense-making-into-the-fabric-of-our-world/ 00:00 Why Complexity Matters 02:02 Cynefin Explained 02:40 Five Domains Overview 06:07 Diagnosing Problems at Work 09:29 Safe to Explore Experiments 11:36 AI as a Complexity Case 15:33 Humans Are Not Machines 19:56 Rethinking Accountability 23:43 Tools for Collective Sensemaking 24:33 Sensemaker and Triads 30:19 Leading by Context 34:28 Confused and Chaotic Domains 39:48 Getting Started with Cynefin 42:29 Complexity in Healthcare 46:00 Closing and Takeaways

May 26, 202633 min

Why Talent Acquisition Is Broken—and How to Make It Human Again | Gabriella Salvatore

Talent acquisition is one of the most important processes in any organization. It determines who gets hired, what capabilities the organization builds, and whether the business can actually execute its strategy. And yet, in many companies, the process feels completely broken. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Gabriella D. Salvatore about how AI is changing HR and talent acquisition — and why the current system may be creating more volume, more friction, and more frustration without necessarily producing better hiring outcomes. Gabriela argues that AI has improved productivity in parts of HR, but often at the expense of human judgment, connection, and quality. The conversation explores why talent acquisition has become too transactional, why generic job descriptions are part of the problem, and why HR must move beyond order-taking to become a true strategic partner to the business. Gabriella and Thomas discuss the need to rethink job design, rebuild trust in the hiring process, and use technology more wisely — not as a substitute for human judgment, but as a tool that supports better decisions. Ultimately, this episode is about more than recruiting. It is about how organizations can design work, roles, and systems in ways that are more human, more intentional, and more effective. In this episode, we discuss: - Why talent acquisition is a critical business process — and why it feels so broken today - Why recruiters are overwhelmed and candidates are frustrated - The limits of applicant tracking systems and AI-driven screening - How generic job descriptions create downstream problems in hiring - Why HR business partners need to act as strategic talent advisors, not order takers - The role of work design and job design in better hiring - Why candidate experience is often damaged by automation and poor process design - What it might take to rebuild talent acquisition for a more human future Guest Bio: Gabriela D. Salvatore works with leaders and organizations on the human side of business, helping them tap into the power of their people. Her work focuses on leadership, HR, organizational effectiveness, and creating more human-centered ways of working. Connect with Gabriela: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriellasalvatore 00:00 The System is Broken 00:28 The impact of AI on HR productivity 01:10 The Keyword Trap 03:42 AI as Research Aid 05:08 Candidate Experience Fallout 06:58 Fixing Talent Acquisition 09:18 Strategic Job Design 10:16 HR as Trusted Advisor 14:26 The BANI world 16:44 Tech Stack Pain Points 19:58 Alignment Over Automation 25:46 Onboarding and Growth Gaps 28:11 Two Tier Hiring Reality 30:05 Business Driven Talent Pools

May 11, 202636 min

Workforce Planning in the Age of AI | Ram Venkatraman

Workforce planning has always been difficult. For years, many organizations treated it as an annual headcount exercise: review the org chart, forecast roles, estimate capacity, and move on. But AI is changing the equation. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Ram Venkatraman about how strategic workforce planning needs to evolve as organizations move from AI as a tool, to AI as an assistant, to AI as an autonomous agent. The old workforce planning model focused largely on people, roles, and headcount. The emerging model has to account for human workers, digital teammates, bots, agents, skills, tasks, and changing business models. Ram argues that organizations need to rethink the classic “build, buy, borrow, and bot” framework and expand it for the age of autonomous agents. That shift requires leaders to deconstruct work at the task level, distinguish between cognitive and non-cognitive work, understand which skills will matter most, and decide where human judgment, empathy, ethics, and orchestration are still essential. The conversation explores why workforce planning can no longer be a once-a-year HR ritual, why skills inventory is becoming a critical starting point, and why CHROs need to work much more closely with business leaders to understand where the organization is headed. Thomas and Ram also discuss the risks of punching holes into jobs, the danger of overloading humans with only cognitively intense work, and the need to protect meaning, engagement, and wellbeing as AI changes how work gets done. Ultimately, this episode is about more than workforce planning. It is about how organizations can prepare for a future where humans and agents work side by side — and why the leaders who succeed will be the ones who redesign work with intention, clarity, and care. In this episode, we discuss: - Why traditional workforce planning often fails before the year is even underway - How AI agents are changing the workforce planning equation - Why organizations need to move beyond headcount and roles toward skills and tasks - The shift from AI as a tool, to AI as an assistant, to AI as an autonomous agent - How the classic “build, buy, borrow, and bot” framework may need to evolve - Why task deconstruction is essential for planning the future workforce - The difference between cognitive and non-cognitive work - What it means for managers to orchestrate both human and digital teammates - Why AI fluency is becoming critical for middle managers and leaders - How CHROs can partner with the business on future-focused workforce strategy - Why employee fear, skepticism, and ambiguity must be addressed directly - The risks of treating AI adoption as a war on humans - Why wellbeing, engagement, and growth still matter in an AI-enabled organization Key themes: Strategic workforce planning, AI agents, agentic workforce, future of work, skills-based organization, task deconstruction, digital teammates, AI fluency, CHRO strategy, change management, human-centered transformation, employee engagement, wellbeing, work design Memorable idea: The future of workforce planning is no longer just about forecasting headcount. It is about deciding what work should be done by humans, what work can be done by agents, and how leaders can design a system where both create value. Guest Bio: Ram is an experienced management consultant with more than 25 years of experience across firms including EY, KPMG, and IBM. He now works at the intersection of consulting, academia, AI, HR, and talent strategy, including as an Executive in Residence with Rutgers University, where he focuses on AI, HR talent strategies, responsible AI, and future-focused strategic workforce planning. In his view, AI collapses the coordination noise so the human superpower of judgment can lead. Connect with Ram: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramvenkatraman/ 00:00 Welcome and Background 00:42 Why Planning Fails 02:05 From Headcount to Skills 02:55 Five Bs 03:53 Deconstructing Work 05:51 Knowledge Work in AI Era 09:11 Managing Digital Workers 14:19 Where CHROs Start Now 16:29 Meaningful Work Concerns 22:29 Change Readiness Playbook 26:01 Fear, Engagement, Reality 30:19 Five Year Outlook 32:20 Takeaways

April 28, 202636 min

Governance Is Not Bureaucracy. It Is How Organizations Move Faster | Jesper Persson

Governance is not usually a word that gets people excited. For many leaders, it brings to mind compliance, bureaucracy, policies, and control. But Jesper Persson sees governance differently. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Jesper about why governance should be understood as the way an organization steers itself. At its core, governance is about three practical questions: How do we set expectations? How do we give people the mandate to act? And how do we follow up on performance? Jesper argues that many organizations struggle with effectiveness not because people are not working hard, but because the steering system is unclear. Functions optimize locally. Processes break down across boundaries. Decisions get escalated too far up the organization. Shadow systems emerge. And over time, people normalize workarounds instead of fixing the underlying operating model. The conversation explores why functional efficiency is not the same as enterprise effectiveness, why process maps are not the same as process governance, and why large transformations often get stuck in what Jesper calls “the messy middle.” This is the point where the bold vision is clear, and the functions are moving, but the organization has not yet figured out how to prioritize, make decisions, rebalance resources, and resolve cross-functional trade-offs. Thomas and Jesper also discuss how leaders can diagnose governance problems by asking simple questions across leadership, processes, functio ns, and IT architecture. They explore the risks of governance overload, the importance of feedback loops, and the idea of “balanced centralization” — deciding what minimum set of things must be done the same way across the organization while leaving room for local flexibility. Ultimately, this episode is about reclaiming governance from bureaucracy. Done well, governance is not about adding more control. It is about creating the clarity, mandate, and feedback loops organizations need to become more effective. In this episode, we discuss: - Why governance is often misunderstood as bureaucracy or compliance - The original meaning of governance as “steering” - Why governance is central to organizational effectiveness - The three core governance questions: expectations, mandate, and follow-up - Why functional performance does not automatically create enterprise performance - How weak governance creates silos, workarounds, shadow IT, and duplicated effort - Why process mapping is not the same as process governance - How unclear mandates drive escalation and slow decision-making - What happens when multiple governance models overlap without coherence - Why transformations often get stuck in the “messy middle” - How leaders can prepare for cross-functional trade-offs before they happen - Why feedback loops are essential to improving effectiveness - The concept of balanced centralization - How organizations can decide what needs to be standardized and what should remain local Key themes: Governance, organizational effectiveness, operating model, cross-functional performance, transformation, process governance, functional silos, decision rights, mandate, feedback loops, balanced centralization, messy middle, enterprise effectiveness, work design Memorable idea: Governance is not bureaucracy. Governance is how an organization steers itself — by setting expectations, giving people the mandate to act, and following up on performance. Guest Bio: Jesper works with organizations on governance, operating models, and cross-functional effectiveness. His interest in governance developed through years of work on complex projects and transformations across industries, where he saw that many performance problems were not caused by effort or capability, but by unclear expectations, mandates, and feedback loops. Connect with Jesper: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesper-persson-2811771/ Website: http://www.nimbleway.se Article: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/beware-messy-middle-jesper-persson-ozuff/ 00:00 Welcome and Setup 00:47 Why Governance Matters 02:28 Governance Means Steering 04:00 The KPI Mandate Gap 06:08 Process Governance Reality 08:44 Avoiding Escalation Overload 09:57 Manufacturing Case Example 11:47 Culture Under Weak Governance 15:10 Three Questions Diagnostic 18:32 Transformations Messy Middle 22:12 Tollgate Decision Paralysis 24:05 Spotting Governance Signals 30:18 Balanced Centralization Framework 34:16 Wrap Up and Resources

April 6, 202644 min

Why Executive Coaching Changes Behavior When Training Does Not | Jeremy Robinson

Even the best athletes in the world have coaches.Not because they lack skill, but because high performance requires continuous feedback and refinement. Leadership is similar. Executive coaching matters because the higher someone rises in an organization, the fewer honest mirrors they have. Authority creates distance. Distance reduces feedback. Coaching helps close that gap. Jeremy Robinson has not only coached hundreds of executives himself, he has also founded two executive coach training programs - the executive Coaching Program at UPenn’s Wharton Business School and iCoachGlobal, a virtual executive coach training program which is accredited by the ICF as a Level One Coach Training Program. Jeremy is also the co-author of the book, “Becoming an Exceptional Executive Coach”. In this episode, Jeremy and I discuss how coaching shifted from fixing problems to developing high performers and what the ingredients of a good coaching program are: clear eligibility, a panel of vetted coaches, time, 360-degree feedback with stakeholder input and public goals, and confidentiality. Jeremy explains the role of coaching as providing the follow-up “tail” missing from leadership training and argues AI cannot replace human attachment. Whether you are an exec who wants work on your leadership skills or an HR executives looking to establish a coaching program, this episode offers lots of practical insights. Visit https://www.icoachglobal.com to learn more about Jeremy and his unique coaching program. Check out his blog post about the ten Commandments of executive coaching here: https://www.icoachglobal.com/post/jeremy-robinsons-ten-commandments-of-executive-coaching We also recommend his: “Becoming an Exceptional Executive Coach” (https://a.co/d/07Gs8wow) 00:00 From Poetry to Therapy 03:47 The Emotional Intelligence Breakthrough 06:01 Coaching Design That Works 08:11 Why 360 Feedback Matters 10:24 The Coaching Engagement Arc 14:09 A Robot Learns EQ 20:00 Chemistry and Its Limits 22:38 HR Coaching Risk Gap 23:39 Onboarding Coaching ROI 28:14 Why Training Needs Coaching 29:45 Habits and 90 Days 30:32 Positive Psychology 32:38 AI Versus Human Attachment 34:27 Psychological Safety and Silence 39:30 Confidentiality and Pushback 40:48 Resources and Farewell

March 23, 202636 min

Employee Engagement Will Not Improve Until Work Does | Bruce Bolger

In this episode, Thomas Bertels and Bruce Bolger, founder of the Enterprise Engagement Alliance, discuss what lessons we can learn from Total Quality Management (TQM) about creating a creating a movement. Bruce argues TQM succeeded because competition made the economic impact of poor quality undeniable, while engagement lags because most companies don’t measure its costs within their own operations. He advocates for a CEO-led, stakeholder-based, systematic approach based on clarifying purpose, goals, and values, establishing metrics, and aligning operating systems. Bruce explains how silos, poor job design, and toxic leadership undermine engagement and why companies that embrace a stakeholder-centric approach are keeping a low profile. Bruce Bolger is one of the founders of the practice of enterprise engagement, or stakeholder vapitalism, who since 1988 has combined a career in business publishing and content marketing with stakeholder management across the enterprise, human capital reporting, marketing and investor relationships in all the people aspects of business. He founded the Enterprise Engagement Alliance in 2009, assembling academic and business experts in all aspects of engagement to create a formal framework for the practical implementation of stakeholder engagement practices. Today, Bolger works with boards, CEOs, CHROs, CMOs, and investor relations at organizations seeking to profit from a formal stakeholder management plans, metrics, and reporting strategies that enhance performance as well as engagement and experiences. He also works with investors seeking to make sense of the human capital management reporting and with brands and advisory firms seeking to profit from the $500 billion engagement field. He created the first professional education program for Stakeholder Engagement and human capital measurement, served as an advisor to the first ISO (International Organization for Standardization) conforming human capital report, proposed the original standard for employee engagement that has recently been published by ISO, and created the Forum for People Performance and Management at Northwestern University Medill School. He is also the author of two books on Stakeholder Engagement—Enterprise Engagement for CEOs: The Little Bluebook for Stakeholder Capitalists, and Enterprise Engagement: The Roadmap, a practical guide to implementation, and the producer of dozens of high-level video interviews with leaders in all areas of ESG investment and human capital. For More Information, visit www.TheEEA.org. 00:00 TQM Lessons for Engagement 01:16 Economics and People Factor 02:39 Why Engagement Hasn't Taken Off 06:16 Competition and Quiet Winners 08:21 Tech Tools Need a System 10:50 Turnover Costs and Blind Spots 13:23 ISO Standards and Stakeholders 15:55 Need a Visible Champion 17:01 Engagement Needs Proof 18:00 Selling CEOs on Metrics 19:29 Why Stakeholder Capitalism Wins 19:48 Three Forces Changing Business 22:04 Waste and Broken Workplaces 24:19 TQM and System Thinking 25:28 CEO Playbook for Change 29:42 Quality Circles and DEI 31:54 Job Design Drives Engagement 32:32 Building an Engagement Industry 34:03 Hopeful Wrap Up