WorkMatters

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Jun 2026

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In this podcast, Thomas Bertels explores with thought leaders and executives how to make work more productive, valuable, meaningful, and impactful.

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June 8, 202646 min

Boudewijn Bertsch: CYNEFIN

Many organizations are built around the assumption that problems can be analyzed, controlled, and solved through cause and effect. That assumption works well when the problem is clear or complicated. It is far less useful when the problem involves people, culture, leadership, relationships, change, or uncertainty.In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Boudewijn Bertsch about the Cynefin framework, developed by Dave Snowden, and how it helps leaders make sense of different types of problems. Cynefin distinguishes between domains such as clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused. Each domain requires a different way of thinking, deciding, and acting. Boudewijn explains why the dominant management narrative has been shaped by the industrial revolution and the machine metaphor. As a result, many organizations try to force complex human problems into ordered systems of control, accountability, optimization, and best practice. But when the challenge is complex, context matters, outcomes cannot be guaranteed, and leaders need to learn through safe-to-explore experiments.The conversation explores what this means for AI adoption, performance management, leadership, organizational change, and the way we treat people at work. Thomas and Boudewijn discuss why people are not simply resources, why fear undermines experimentation, why leaders need to open collective intelligence, and why the work of management increasingly requires facilitation, sense making, and the ability to navigate uncertainty.Ultimately, this episode is about learning to diagnose the type of problem before choosing the solution. In a complex world, the answer is often not something a leader already has. It is something the organization discovers together.In this episode, we discuss:• What Cynefin is and why Dave Snowden describes it as a framework, not a model• The five Cynefin domains: clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused• Why modern management is shaped by cause-and-effect thinking• How organizations accidentally make complex problems worse by forcing them into ordered systems• Why leadership, culture, relationships, and human performance are complex• How to use safe-to-explore experiments in complex environments• Why fear, punishment, and traditional accountability can block experimentation• How AI adoption can be approached through multiple experiments and learning loops • The limits of performance reviews and linear rating systems• Why organizations need to lead interactions, not just individuals• How leaders can use collective intelligence to make sense of complex problems• Why leadership style should depend on context• What to do when a team is confused or facing chaos• How to get started by asking better “we” questionsKey themes: Cynefin, complexity, sensemaking, leadership, management, organizational culture, human complexity, safe-to-explore experiments, collective intelligence, performance management, AI adoption, accountability, uncertainty, organizational change, complex adaptive systemsMemorable idea: In complex work, the answer is not something leaders can simply analyze their way toward. It is something people discover through context, collective intelligence, and safe-to-explore experiments.Guest Bio:Boudewijn Bertsch works with individuals, teams, and executives on how to bring out the best in themselves and others. Trained as a business economist and sociologist, he draws on neuroscience, systems and complexity science, somatics, evolutionary psychology, and biology to help leaders work more effectively in complex environments.Over the past 35 years, Boudewijn has worked with leader around the world. He is a certified somatic leadership coach, a former assistant professor at Erasmus University Rotterdam, and a longtime executive education faculty member and advisor to organizations. Boudewijn is co-editor and contributing author of Cynefin: Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World.Connect with Boudewijn: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boudewijn-bertsch-3b79a54a/Cynefin Wiki: https://cynefin.io/wiki/Main_PageThe Cynefin Co: https://thecynefin.co/Book: Cynefin - Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World https://thecynefin.co/library/cynefin-weaving-sense-making-into-the-fabric-of-our-world/00:00 Why Complexity Matters02:02 Cynefin Explained02:40 Five Domains Overview06:07 Diagnosing Problems at Work09:29 Safe to Explore Experiments11:36 AI as a Complexity Case15:33 Humans Are Not Machines19:56 Rethinking Accountability23:43 Tools for Collective Sensemaking24:33 Sensemaker and Triads30:19 Leading by Context34:28 Confused and Chaotic Domains39:48 Getting Started with Cynefin42:29 Complexity in Healthcare46:00 Closing and Takeaways

May 26, 202633 min

Gabriella Salvatore: Humanizing Talent Acquisition

Talent acquisition is one of the most important processes in any organization. It determines who gets hired, what capabilities the organization builds, and whether the business can actually execute its strategy. And yet, in many companies, the process feels completely broken.In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Gabriella D. Salvatore about how AI is changing HR and talent acquisition — and why the current system may be creating more volume, more friction, and more frustration without necessarily producing better hiring outcomes. Gabriela argues that AI has improved productivity in parts of HR, but often at the expense of human judgment, connection, and quality.The conversation explores why talent acquisition has become too transactional, why generic job descriptions are part of the problem, and why HR must move beyond order-taking to become a true strategic partner to the business. Gabriella and Thomas discuss the need to rethink job design, rebuild trust in the hiring process, and use technology more wisely — not as a substitute for human judgment, but as a tool that supports better decisions. Ultimately, this episode is about more than recruiting. It is about how organizations can design work, roles, and systems in ways that are more human, more intentional, and more effective.In this episode, we discuss:- Why talent acquisition is a critical business process — and why it feels so broken today- Why recruiters are overwhelmed and candidates are frustrated- The limits of applicant tracking systems and AI-driven screening- How generic job descriptions create downstream problems in hiring- Why HR business partners need to act as strategic talent advisors, not order takers- The role of work design and job design in better hiring- Why candidate experience is often damaged by automation and poor process design- What it might take to rebuild talent acquisition for a more human futureGuest Bio:Gabriela D. Salvatore works with leaders and organizations on the human side of business, helping them tap into the power of their people. Her work focuses on leadership, HR, organizational effectiveness, and creating more human-centered ways of working.Connect with Gabriela: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriellasalvatore00:00 The System is Broken00:28 The impact of AI on HR productivity01:10 The Keyword Trap03:42 AI as Research Aid05:08 Candidate Experience Fallout06:58 Fixing Talent Acquisition09:18 Strategic Job Design10:16 HR as Trusted Advisor14:26 The BANI world16:44 Tech Stack Pain Points19:58 Alignment Over Automation25:46 Onboarding and Growth Gaps28:11 Two Tier Hiring Reality30:05 Business Driven Talent Pools

May 11, 202636 min

Ram Venkatraman - AI and Workforce Planning

Workforce planning has always been difficult. For years, many organizations treated it as an annual headcount exercise: review the org chart, forecast roles, estimate capacity, and move on. But AI is changing the equation. In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Ram Venkatraman about how strategic workforce planning needs to evolve as organizations move from AI as a tool, to AI as an assistant, to AI as an autonomous agent. The old workforce planning model focused largely on people, roles, and headcount. The emerging model has to account for human workers, digital teammates, bots, agents, skills, tasks, and changing business models. Ram argues that organizations need to rethink the classic “build, buy, borrow, and bot” framework and expand it for the age of autonomous agents. That shift requires leaders to deconstruct work at the task level, distinguish between cognitive and non-cognitive work, understand which skills will matter most, and decide where human judgment, empathy, ethics, and orchestration are still essential. The conversation explores why workforce planning can no longer be a once-a-year HR ritual, why skills inventory is becoming a critical starting point, and why CHROs need to work much more closely with business leaders to understand where the organization is headed. Thomas and Ram also discuss the risks of punching holes into jobs, the danger of overloading humans with only cognitively intense work, and the need to protect meaning, engagement, and wellbeing as AI changes how work gets done. Ultimately, this episode is about more than workforce planning. It is about how organizations can prepare for a future where humans and agents work side by side — and why the leaders who succeed will be the ones who redesign work with intention, clarity, and care. In this episode, we discuss: - Why traditional workforce planning often fails before the year is even underway - How AI agents are changing the workforce planning equation - Why organizations need to move beyond headcount and roles toward skills and tasks - The shift from AI as a tool, to AI as an assistant, to AI as an autonomous agent - How the classic “build, buy, borrow, and bot” framework may need to evolve - Why task deconstruction is essential for planning the future workforce - The difference between cognitive and non-cognitive work - What it means for managers to orchestrate both human and digital teammates - Why AI fluency is becoming critical for middle managers and leaders - How CHROs can partner with the business on future-focused workforce strategy - Why employee fear, skepticism, and ambiguity must be addressed directly - The risks of treating AI adoption as a war on humans - Why wellbeing, engagement, and growth still matter in an AI-enabled organization Key themes: Strategic workforce planning, AI agents, agentic workforce, future of work, skills-based organization, task deconstruction, digital teammates, AI fluency, CHRO strategy, change management, human-centered transformation, employee engagement, wellbeing, work design Memorable idea: The future of workforce planning is no longer just about forecasting headcount. It is about deciding what work should be done by humans, what work can be done by agents, and how leaders can design a system where both create value. Guest Bio: Ram is an experienced management consultant with more than 25 years of experience across firms including EY, KPMG, and IBM. He now works at the intersection of consulting, academia, AI, HR, and talent strategy, including as an Executive in Residence with Rutgers University, where he focuses on AI, HR talent strategies, responsible AI, and future-focused strategic workforce planning. In his view, AI collapses the coordination noise so the human superpower of judgment can lead. Connect with Ram: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramvenkatraman/ 00:00 Welcome and Background 00:42 Why Planning Fails 02:05 From Headcount to Skills 02:55 Five Bs 03:53 Deconstructing Work 05:51 Knowledge Work in AI Era 09:11 Managing Digital Workers 14:19 Where CHROs Start Now 16:29 Meaningful Work Concerns 22:29 Change Readiness Playbook 26:01 Fear, Engagement, Reality 30:19 Five Year Outlook 32:20 Takeaways

April 28, 202636 min

Jesper Persson - Governance and Effectiveness

Governance is not usually a word that gets people excited. For many leaders, it brings to mind compliance, bureaucracy, policies, and control. But Jesper Persson sees governance differently.In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Jesper about why governance should be understood as the way an organization steers itself. At its core, governance is about three practical questions: How do we set expectations? How do we give people the mandate to act? And how do we follow up on performance?Jesper argues that many organizations struggle with effectiveness not because people are not working hard, but because the steering system is unclear. Functions optimize locally. Processes break down across boundaries. Decisions get escalated too far up the organization. Shadow systems emerge. And over time, people normalize workarounds instead of fixing the underlying operating model.The conversation explores why functional efficiency is not the same as enterprise effectiveness, why process maps are not the same as process governance, and why large transformations often get stuck in what Jesper calls “the messy middle.” This is the point where the bold vision is clear, and the functions are moving, but the organization has not yet figured out how to prioritize, make decisions, rebalance resources, and resolve cross-functional trade-offs.Thomas and Jesper also discuss how leaders can diagnose governance problems by asking simple questions across leadership, processes, functio ns, and IT architecture. They explore the risks of governance overload, the importance of feedback loops, and the idea of “balanced centralization” — deciding what minimum set of things must be done the same way across the organization while leaving room for local flexibility.Ultimately, this episode is about reclaiming governance from bureaucracy. Done well, governance is not about adding more control. It is about creating the clarity, mandate, and feedback loops organizations need to become more effective.In this episode, we discuss:- Why governance is often misunderstood as bureaucracy or compliance- The original meaning of governance as “steering”- Why governance is central to organizational effectiveness- The three core governance questions: expectations, mandate, and follow-up- Why functional performance does not automatically create enterprise performance- How weak governance creates silos, workarounds, shadow IT, and duplicated effort- Why process mapping is not the same as process governance- How unclear mandates drive escalation and slow decision-making- What happens when multiple governance models overlap without coherence- Why transformations often get stuck in the “messy middle”- How leaders can prepare for cross-functional trade-offs before they happen- Why feedback loops are essential to improving effectiveness- The concept of balanced centralization- How organizations can decide what needs to be standardized and what should remain localKey themes:Governance, organizational effectiveness, operating model, cross-functional performance, transformation, process governance, functional silos, decision rights, mandate, feedback loops, balanced centralization, messy middle, enterprise effectiveness, work designMemorable idea:Governance is not bureaucracy. Governance is how an organization steers itself — by setting expectations, giving people the mandate to act, and following up on performance.Guest Bio:Jesper works with organizations on governance, operating models, and cross-functional effectiveness. His interest in governance developed through years of work on complex projects and transformations across industries, where he saw that many performance problems were not caused by effort or capability, but by unclear expectations, mandates, and feedback loops.Connect with Jesper:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesper-persson-2811771/ Website: http://www.nimbleway.se Article: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/beware-messy-middle-jesper-persson-ozuff/00:00 Welcome and Setup00:47 Why Governance Matters02:28 Governance Means Steering04:00 The KPI Mandate Gap06:08 Process Governance Reality08:44 Avoiding Escalation Overload09:57 Manufacturing Case Example11:47 Culture Under Weak Governance15:10 Three Questions Diagnostic18:32 Transformations Messy Middle22:12 Tollgate Decision Paralysis24:05 Spotting Governance Signals30:18 Balanced Centralization Framework34:16 Wrap Up and Resources

April 6, 202644 min

Jeremy Robinson - The Power of Coaching

Even the best athletes in the world have coaches.Not because they lack skill, but because high performance requires continuous feedback and refinement. Leadership is similar.Executive coaching matters because the higher someone rises in an organization, the fewer honest mirrors they have. Authority creates distance. Distance reduces feedback. Coaching helps close that gap.Jeremy Robinson has not only coached hundreds of executives himself, he has also founded two executive coach training programs - the executive Coaching Program at UPenn’s Wharton Business School and iCoachGlobal, a virtual executive coach training program which is accredited by the ICF as a Level One Coach Training Program. Jeremy is also the co-author of the book, “Becoming an Exceptional Executive Coach”.In this episode, Jeremy and I discuss how coaching shifted from fixing problems to developing high performers and what the ingredients of a good coaching program are: clear eligibility, a panel of vetted coaches, time, 360-degree feedback with stakeholder input and public goals, and confidentiality.Jeremy explains the role of coaching as providing the follow-up “tail” missing from leadership training and argues AI cannot replace human attachment.Whether you are an exec who wants work on your leadership skills or an HR executives looking to establish a coaching program, this episode offers lots of practical insights.Visit https://www.icoachglobal.com to learn more about Jeremy and his unique coaching program.Check out his blog post about the ten Commandments of executive coaching here: https://www.icoachglobal.com/post/jeremy-robinsons-ten-commandments-of-executive-coachingWe also recommend his: “Becoming an Exceptional Executive Coach” (https://a.co/d/07Gs8wow)00:00 From Poetry to Therapy03:47 The Emotional Intelligence Breakthrough06:01 Coaching Design That Works08:11 Why 360 Feedback Matters10:24 The Coaching Engagement Arc14:09 A Robot Learns EQ20:00 Chemistry and Its Limits22:38 HR Coaching Risk Gap23:39 Onboarding Coaching ROI28:14 Why Training Needs Coaching29:45 Habits and 90 Days30:32 Positive Psychology32:38 AI Versus Human Attachment34:27 Psychological Safety and Silence39:30 Confidentiality and Pushback40:48 Resources and Farewell

March 23, 202636 min

Bruce Bolger - TQM for Engagement

In this episode, Thomas Bertels and Bruce Bolger, founder of the Enterprise Engagement Alliance, discuss what lessons we can learn from Total Quality Management (TQM) about creating a creating a movement.Bruce argues TQM succeeded because competition made the economic impact of poor quality undeniable, while engagement lags because most companies don’t measure its costs within their own operations.He advocates for a CEO-led, stakeholder-based, systematic approach based on clarifying purpose, goals, and values, establishing metrics, and aligning operating systems.Bruce explains how silos, poor job design, and toxic leadership undermine engagement and why companies that embrace a stakeholder-centric approach are keeping a low profile.Bruce Bolger is one of the founders of the practice of enterprise engagement, or stakeholder vapitalism, who since 1988 has combined a career in business publishing and content marketing with stakeholder management across the enterprise, human capital reporting, marketing and investor relationships in all the people aspects of business.He founded the Enterprise Engagement Alliance in 2009, assembling academic and business experts in all aspects of engagement to create a formal framework for the practical implementation of stakeholder engagement practices.Today, Bolger works with boards, CEOs, CHROs, CMOs, and investor relations at organizations seeking to profit from a formal stakeholder management plans, metrics, and reporting strategies that enhance performance as well as engagement and experiences.He also works with investors seeking to make sense of the human capital management reporting and with brands and advisory firms seeking to profit from the $500 billion engagement field.He created the first professional education program for Stakeholder Engagement and human capital measurement, served as an advisor to the first ISO (International Organization for Standardization) conforming human capital report, proposed the original standard for employee engagement that has recently been published by ISO, and created the Forum for People Performance and Management at Northwestern University Medill School.He is also the author of two books on Stakeholder Engagement—Enterprise Engagement for CEOs: The Little Bluebook for Stakeholder Capitalists, and Enterprise Engagement: The Roadmap, a practical guide to implementation, and the producer of dozens of high-level video interviews with leaders in all areas of ESG investment and human capital.For More Information, visit www.TheEEA.org.00:00 TQM Lessons for Engagement01:16 Economics and People Factor02:39 Why Engagement Hasn't Taken Off06:16 Competition and Quiet Winners08:21 Tech Tools Need a System10:50 Turnover Costs and Blind Spots13:23 ISO Standards and Stakeholders15:55 Need a Visible Champion17:01 Engagement Needs Proof18:00 Selling CEOs on Metrics19:29 Why Stakeholder Capitalism Wins19:48 Three Forces Changing Business22:04 Waste and Broken Workplaces24:19 TQM and System Thinking25:28 CEO Playbook for Change29:42 Quality Circles and DEI31:54 Job Design Drives Engagement32:32 Building an Engagement Industry34:03 Hopeful Wrap Up

March 10, 202645 min

Michele Fite - Leadership in a Start-Up

When it comes to leadership, context makes a big difference. Leaders that do well in large, established organizations are masters of securing resources, building consensus, and navigating the politics. But if you take those successful executives and put them into a leadership role in a start-up, many of them struggle - because leadership in a start-up requires a different set of skills.Michele Fite has made that difficult transition. She is a foodtech executive, Board Director, and advisor. Who currently serves as the Chief Commercial Officer of Elo Life Systems. Prior to that, Michele was the chief commercial officer at Motif FoodWorks, where As one of its first employees she led Motif’s efforts to introduce and commercialize the company’s game-changing ingredients and where I had the pleasure of working with her. But before Motif, Michele held executive roles at giant companies like Nestle and DuPont, where she was in charge of a $3.5B Nutrition & Health portfolio.In our conversation, we explore how leadership in a large, established company is different from leadership in a start-up, how her big-company experience has helped her, what she had to unlearn, and what’s really key to succeed with that transition.Whether you are an exec toying with taking the leap into the startup world or a founder looking to bring in some big company experience to help you scale, this episode offers lots of practical insights.00:00 Why Startups Now02:23 Startup Leadership Reality06:37 Big Company Skills That Help11:51 What To Unlearn Fast18:13 Hiring Builders Not Roles24:59 Variable Teams And Networks29:59 Scaling Without Losing Soul35:03 Should You Make The Leap41:52 Closing Reflections

January 27, 202631 min

Jesse Jacoby - Getting Layoffs Right

In this episode of the Work Matters Podcast, host Thomas Bertels is joined by Jesse Jacoby, founder of Emergent Consultants, to discuss best practices for managing layoffs and how to minimize negative impact on morale and productivity. Jesse delve into the roles of senior leaders and middle managers, the hidden costs of mishandling layoffs, the critical importance of clear communication, and the impact of AI.Jesse Jacoby has led enterprise transformation efforts for leading companies. His work spans complex initiatives such as corporate restructuring, organizational redesign, mergers and acquisitions, technology implementation, process reengineering, and enterprise-wide cost reduction. Known for his ability to align people, processes, and strategy, Jesse helps clients accelerate progress and sustain meaningful change.Use the following links to learn more about Jesse and to connect with him: Website: https://emergentconsultants.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jjacoby/Episode Flow:00:00 Introduction02:00 The Hidden Costs of Layoffs03:01 Alternatives to Layoffs04:36 Role of Senior Leaders in Layoffs06:07 Role of Middle Managers in Layoffs16:25 Effective Communication Strategies18:55 Impact of AI on Layoffs23:22 Successful Layoff Strategies31:20 Conclusion and Contact Information

January 6, 202634 min

Steve Degnan - The Value of Good HR

Steve Degnan is the former CHRO for Nestle Purina North America, a role he held for nearly two decades under three different CEOs. In conversation with host Thomas Bertels, Steve offers his views on what good HR looks like, where the biggest opportunities are for HR to add real value , why seizing these opportunities is often challenging, and what the future holds for the HR function. He shares his take on the impact of AI and the need for HR to maintain human elements in an increasingly automated world. About Steve Degnan: Steve Steve’s professional journey began at Nestle as a Production Supervisor in a coffee factory. He later transitioned into logistics and industrial performance roles before finding his calling in the HR organization. Steve’s career culminated in his role as CHRO of the newly acquired St. Louis-based Purina Petcare business, where he served until his retirement in 2023. Throughout his tenure, Steve managed the succession of several CEOs and leadership teams, and designed and led the succession/people practices that produced them. He spearheaded multiple restructuring efforts and transformations, assessed M&A targets, and integrated businesses. These days in addition to finishing a book project, Steve serves on several non-profit boards and provides coaching and advisory services. In his spare time, Steve enjoys staying fit, following college basketball (especially his La Salle Explorers), spending time with family and friends, and spoiling his 9-year-old Labrador Retriever, Angel. To learn more about Steve and his work, visit https://www.stevedegnan.com. To follow Steve on social media, visit https://linktr.ee/skd7777.

August 26, 202527 min

Patrick Farran - The Power of Co-Creation

In this episode of the Work Matters Podcast, host Thomas Bertels and Patrick Farran talk about the power of co-creation. The conversation highlights the importance of involving team members in decision-making processes for significant change initiatives, because people value what they help create. Patrick explains the benefits and challenges of a co-creation approach and provides scenarios where co-creation is effective, such as strategic planning and job crafting, and cautions against performative co-creation. The discussion also touches on appreciative inquiry, the necessity for psychological safety, and the mindset shifts required for leaders to successfully implement co-creation. Patrick shares practical tips for leaders to start small with everyday interactions, ensuring clarity of processes and fostering an environment of constructive conflict and collaboration. 00:00 Introduction to Co-Creation00:59 Defining Co-Creation01:49 Pros and Cons of Co-Creation04:39 Examples and Applications of Co-Creation06:18 Challenges and Leadership Mindset10:09 Appreciative Inquiry and Co-Creation11:35 Getting Started with Co-Creation14:52 Prerequisites for Successful Co-Creation25:13 Final Thoughts Use these links to connect and learn more about Patrick and his upcoming book, 'The Intentional Executive,' which aims to guide leaders in being more intentional and effective in their roles. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickfarran/Website: http://www.adlucemgroup.comBook: https://adlucemgroup.com/the-intentional-executive-prelaunch/