Work For Humans

Hosted by Dart Lindsley

Business Management

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211

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Jun 2026

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About the show

Too often business leaders are forced to choose between the needs of their company and the needs of their employees. It’s a lose/lose scenario leaving managers burned out and workers seeking other opportunities. At Work for Humans, we believe work can be designed differently. When you design work like products people love, your company wins. Work becomes irresistible, employees passionately buy into their roles every day, and your company takes measurable strides towards your vision.

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June 16, 2026Episode 1911 hr 6 min

Building Organizations for a Future That Doesn't Fit the Past | Rishad Tobaccowala

Rishad Tobaccowala has spent much of his career breaking out of boxes. First it was the spreadsheet and the idea that organizations can be managed through numbers alone. Then it was the office and the assumptions built into how we supervise and coordinate work. More recently, he has turned his attention to the broader structures that shape how we work and learn. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss the limits of measurement, management as a zone of control versus a zone of influence, and why the future may not fit inside the containers we inherited from the past.In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss:- The containers that shape our thinking- Why spreadsheets can blind us- When measurement becomes the mission- Talent without opportunity- The office as a management tool- Control versus influence- Why companies become zoos- What CEOs say about AI- Why people resist transformation- Choosing with our hearts, not our heads- And other topics…Rishad Tobaccowala is an author, advisor, speaker, and teacher focused on helping people and organizations thrive in times of change. He is the author of Rethinking Work and Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data. Rishad spent nearly four decades at Publicis Groupe, where he served as Global Chief Strategist and Chief Growth Officer. Today he advises leaders around the world on leadership, innovation, technology, and the future of work. He also writes The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past, a newsletter on change and reinvention.Resources Mentioned:Rishad’s Book, Rethinking Work: https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Work-Seismic-Changes-Where/dp/1400249309 Rishad’s Book, Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data: https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Soul-Business-Staying-Human/dp/1400210542 Rishad’s Newsletter, The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past: https://rishad.substack.com/Connect with Rishad:Official website: https://rishadtobaccowala.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishadtobaccowala/Twitter/X: https://x.com/rishadWork with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

June 9, 20261 hr 11 min

Talentism: Building Organizations Around Human Potential | Jeff Hunter, Revisited

After years leading recruiting and talent systems at companies like Bridgewater, Electronic Arts, and Dolby, Jeff Hunter came to believe that many of our assumptions about talent, hiring, and performance are fundamentally wrong. The problem is not that people lack potential. The problem is that the systems around them often fail to recognize or develop it. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jeff discuss what gets in the way of human potential and what organizations can do differently.Prior to founding Talentism, Jeff served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held leadership roles at Electronic Arts and Dolby. His work has focused on designing and scaling systems that help people learn, grow, and perform at their best.In this episode, Dart and Jeff discuss:- What limits human potential- Why talent matters more than capital- The hidden flaws in hiring- Why skills can be misleading- What Bridgewater taught Jeff- The problem with managing people- How systems shape behavior- Why context changes everything - The challenge of hiring for values - What great organizations do differently- And other topics…Jeff Hunter is founder and CEO of Talentism, a company that helps leaders build organizations that unlock human potential. Previously, he served as Head of Recruiting at Bridgewater Associates and held senior talent leadership roles in the technology industry. His work focuses on helping organizations design systems that enable people to learn, grow, and perform at their best.Connect with Jeff:Website: www.talentism.com Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

June 2, 2026Episode 1901 hr 1 min

Beyond Collective Impact: What It Really Takes to Change a System | John Kania

Many of the problems we care most about cannot be solved by a single organization. That insight helped John Kania develop Collective Impact, a framework for bringing people together around shared goals. But over time, Kania noticed that coordination alone was not enough. Even when groups made progress, the deeper patterns of the system often remained unchanged. In this episode, Dart and John discuss the evolution of systems change thinking and why lasting change requires more than alignment, strategy, and good intentions.John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit that develops new approaches to collaboration and systems change. He is a leading thinker on collective impact, systems leadership, and the relational work of creating social change.In this episode, Dart and John discuss:- Problems no one can solve alone- Why good intentions often fail- The limits of coordination- What keeps systems stuck- The hidden power of mental models- Why relationships drive change- The challenge of sharing power- What leadership looks like in uncertainty- The role of healing in systems change- Why changing systems means changing ourselves- Building islands of coherence- And other topics…John Kania is Executive Director of Collective Change Lab, a nonprofit focused on advancing transformational systems change practices. He previously served as Global Managing Director of FSG, where he helped develop and popularize the concept of collective impact. John is co-author of the influential Stanford Social Innovation Review articles Collective Impact, The Dawn of System Leadership, and The Relational Work of Systems Change, as well as The Water of Systems Change. His work focuses on helping people and organizations collaborate across boundaries to address complex social challenges.Resources Mentioned:Collective Impact, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/collective_impactThe Dawn of System Leadership, by John Kania, Mark Kramer, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadershipThe Relational Work of Systems Change, by John Kania, Jennifer Splansky Juster, and Peter Senge: https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_relational_work_of_systems_changeThe Water of Systems Change, by David Peter Stroh, John Kania, Mark Kramer, and others: https://www.fsg.org/resource/water_of_systems_change/Collective Change Lab: https://collectivechangelab.org/Connect with John:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-kania-1a294020/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

May 26, 20261 hr 2 min

How Treating Employees Like Customers Transforms Performance and Belonging | Mark LeBusque, Revisited

After becoming painfully aware that he cared more about the numbers than the well-being of his employees, Mark LeBusque began to question his management philosophy. An insight to start thinking of his employees like customers helped Mark breakout of the "employees as inputs to production" model that previously informed his thinking. With this shift in management style, Mark was able to lead his team to unprecedented levels of growth and a new found sense of belonging.In this revisited episode, Dart and Mark discuss management, belonging, emotional labor, and what happens when leaders stop treating work as a system to control and start treating it as a human relationship.Mark is internationally known as the Human Manager. He is a Harvard-trained speaker, facilitator, mentor, coach, and author focused on making businesses more human-centric.In this episode Dart and Mark discuss:- Why results can hide bad management- What happens when people feel like inputs- Why belonging changes how people work- Why management is really relationship work- How trust changes team performance- Why discomfort can lead to growth- The difference between metrics and meaning- How leaders create psychological safety- Why some workplaces make people feel invisible- What work costs us emotionally- And other topics…Mark LeBusque is an Australian speaker, facilitator, coach, and author known for his work on human-centered leadership and workplace culture. After more than 25 years in sales, operations, and executive leadership roles, he developed his “Human Manager” philosophy, which focuses on belonging, trust, and human connection at work. He is the author of Being Human and The Little Book of Human, and works with leaders and organizations around the world to build healthier workplace relationships and cultures.Resources mentioned: Being Human: Why Robots Are Not the Answer to Business Success, by Mark LeBusque: https://www.amazon.com/Being-Human-Robots-Business-Success/dp/0995429618Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed, by James C. Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153Connect with: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marklebusque?originalSubdomain=auWebsite: https://marklebusque.com/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

May 19, 2026Episode 1891 hr 5 min

Moral Economics: Where Human Values Shape Markets | Alvin Roth

A kidney transplant does not work like buying a gallon of milk. Neither does hiring or getting into a medical residency. In these markets, both sides care deeply about who they end up with, and a good outcome depends on more than money. Alvin Roth has spent his career studying what makes those systems succeed or fail. His work designing kidney exchange programs showed that even when people desperately want to help each other, the market can still break down unless the rules create the right kind of match. In this episode, Dart and Al discuss matching markets, moral economics, and the hidden rules that shape opportunity, fairness, and work itself.Alvin Roth is an economist and professor at Stanford University best known for his work on market design and matching theory. He received the 2012 Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences for his work on stable matching and the design of markets used in medical residencies, school choice, and kidney exchange.In this episode, Dart and Al discuss:- Why some markets depend on matching- Why fit matters more than money- What makes a market stable- Why real markets are messy- The difference between theory and engineering- What “repugnant transactions” are- Why societies ban some exchanges- How social norms shape markets- Why work is also a matching problem- And other topics…Alvin Roth is the Craig and Susan McCaw Professor of Economics at Stanford University and recipient of the 2012 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, awarded with Lloyd Shapley for the theory of stable allocations and the practice of market design. His work has helped design matching systems for medical residencies, public school admissions, and kidney exchange programs. He is the author of Who Gets What — and Why and Moral Economics: Why Good and Bad Markets Exist.Resources Mentioned:Al’s Book, Moral Economics: Why Good and Bad Markets Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Economics-Good-Markets-Exist/dp/1324076445Al’s Book, Who Gets What — and Why: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Gets-What-Why-Matchmaking/dp/0544705299Connect with Al:Stanford profile: https://profiles.stanford.edu/alvin-rothMarket Design Blog: https://marketdesigner.blogspot.com/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

May 12, 20261 hr 6 min

Team Chemistry: The Intangible Forces That Make Teams Win | Joan Ryan, Revisited

When Joan Ryan stepped into the locker room to conduct her first post-game interview as a sports journalist, she was all but kicked out by the players. Feeling both unwelcome and undeterred, she made a firm decision to stick around and make a name for herself as one of the first female sports columnists in the country.Intrigued by the concept of team chemistry, Joan wrote Intangibles, where she shares what team chemistry really is, how to identify it, and how to use it to elevate the performance of any entity, from sports to businesses and beyond. In this revisited episode, Joan and Dart explore the hidden forces behind great teams, why chemistry matters more than most people think, and how human connection can elevate performance.Joan Ryan is an award-winning journalist, speaker, author, and media consultant with the San Francisco Giants. Her work has been featured on Oprah, 60 Minutes, the Today Show, People magazine, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and Time Magazine.In this episode, Dart and Joan discuss:- Whether or not team chemistry exists- How team chemistry elevates performance- The neurophysiology of human connection- The essential archetypes within team chemistry- Connecting over emotions vs. connecting over a shared task- How chemistry and skills affect the likelihood of team success- Using an intangible concept to create tangible results- And other topics…Joan Ryan is an award-winning journalist, speaker, author, and media consultant with the San Francisco Giants. She pioneered sports journalism as one of the first female sports columnists in the country; her work has earned 13 Associated Press Sports Editors Awards, the Women’s Sports Foundation’s Journalism Award, and the Edgar A. Poe Award from the White House Correspondents Association, among others.As an author, Joan has been featured on Oprah, 60 Minutes, the Today Show, People magazine, the New Yorker, the New York Times, and Time Magazine. Her expansive career inspired her book, Intangibles: Unlocking the Science and Soul of Team Chemistry, which draws from hundreds of interviews to understand the phenomenon known as team chemistry.Resources mentioned:Intangibles, by Joan Ryan: https://www.amazon.com/Intangibles-Unlocking-Science-Soul-Chemistry/dp/B086KJFGBWOrganizing Genius, by Warren Bennis and Patricia Ward Biederman: https://www.amazon.com/Organizing-Genius-Secrets-Creative-Collaboration/dp/0201339897Connect with Joan:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joan-ryan-intangibles/Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

May 5, 2026Episode 1881 hr 10 min

The Hidden Cost of Leaving Faith Outside Work | Elaine Ecklund

Most workplaces don’t quite know what to do with faith. It often gets simplified, avoided, or treated as something too divisive to bring into professional life. Elaine Ecklund studies what happens when people try to leave that part of themselves outside the workplace, and what is lost when they do. Her research shows that faith is rarely just about religion. It becomes a window into bigger tensions around ethics, identity, belonging, and the struggle to feel fully present at work. In this episode, Dart and Elaine discuss how faith shapes the experience of work, why workplaces often misunderstand religion, and what designing for people of faith can teach us about designing work for everyone.Elaine Ecklund is a sociologist at Rice University and director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. She studies religion, work, science, and how people make meaning in everyday life.In this episode, Dart and Elaine discuss:- Why workplaces avoid conversations about faith- What happens when belief stays hidden- Faith as part of bringing one's whole self- How people decide what is ethical at work- The difference between personal and systems morality- Why some people see work as a calling- The risks of feeling called to work- How minority identity shapes belonging- Why discrimination depends on workplace context- How churches shape ideas about work- How religion and science overlap- And other topics…Elaine Howard Ecklund is the Herbert S. Autrey Chair in Social Sciences and professor of sociology at Rice University. She is also the founding director of the Boniuk Institute for the Study and Advancement of Religious Tolerance. Her research explores how people’s deepest beliefs shape work, science, leadership, and civic life. She is the author of several books, including Religion in a Changing Workplace, Working for Better: A New Approach to Faith at Work, and Why Science and Faith Need Each Other: Eight Shared Values That Move Us Beyond Fear.Resources Mentioned:Elaine’s Books;Working for Better: A New Approach to Faith at Work: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Better-Approach-Faith-Work/dp/1514011263 Religion in a Changing Workplace: https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Workplace-Scheitle/dp/0197675018 Why Science and Faith Need Each Other: Eight Shared Values That Move Us Beyond Fear: https://www.amazon.com/Science-Faith-Need-Each-Other/dp/1587434369 Connect with Elaine:Official website: https://www.elainehowardecklund.com/Rice University profile: https://profiles.rice.edu/faculty/elaine-howard-ecklundLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elaine-howard-ecklund/ Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

April 28, 20261 hr 4 min

Why People Want Conflicting Things from Work | Derek Sivers, Revisited

People often want conflicting things from work because they carry different ideas about what makes a good life. What feels meaningful to one person can feel draining to another, and those differences often go deeper than personality or preference. That is what makes Derek Sivers’s book, How to Live, so useful here. It lays out 27 competing ways to live, each one convincing in its own voice. In this revisited episode, Dart and Derek discuss how those deeper beliefs shape the way people think about work, choice, and the lives they are trying to build.Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and former musician who founded CD Baby. He writes about business, creativity, philosophy, and how beliefs shape action and meaning.In this episode, Dart and Derek discuss:- How beliefs quietly shape our actions- The 27 ways to live- Why no one philosophy fits everyone- How work reflects deeper life beliefs- Why people want opposite things from work- Introverts and extroverts at work- Using beliefs as a listening tool- Nature and nurture at work- Why companies should have personality- Useful beliefs versus true beliefs- Data models as philosophical experiences- And other topics…Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and programmer best known for founding CD Baby, which became a major online seller of independent music. He later sold the company and transferred the proceeds into a charitable trust for music education. He is the author of Anything You Want, Your Music and People, Hell Yeah or No, How to Live, and Useful Not True. He is originally from California and now lives in New Zealand.Resources Mentioned:Derek’s Book, How to Live: https://sive.rs/hDerek’s Book, Useful Not True: https://sive.rs/uSum: Forty Tales from the Afterlives, by David Eagleman: https://www.amazon.com/Sum-Forty-Tales-Afterlives-Eagleman/dp/0307389936 Longpath: Becoming the Great Ancestors Our Future Needs, by Ari Wallach: https://www.amazon.com/Longpath-Becoming-Ancestors-Antidote-Short-Termism/dp/0063068737 Connect with Derek:Official website: https://sive.rsWork with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

April 21, 2026Episode 1871 hr 3 min

What Does It Mean to Be Rational at Work? | Barry Schwartz

Rational choice theory has become so familiar that it can feel like common sense. We talk about trade-offs, optimization, ROI, and risk as if they capture what it means to think clearly. But many of the decisions that matter most do not work that way. They are shaped by context, values, relationships, and the larger story of a life. In this episode, Barry Schwartz returns to discuss how rational choice theory became the default way we think, how it shapes work and decision-making, and what a more human approach to being rational might look like.Barry Schwartz is a psychologist and professor emeritus at Swarthmore College. He studies decision-making, motivation, and the role of meaning in work and life.In this episode, Dart and Barry discuss:- Why we treat decisions like math- What gets lost when everything becomes a number- Why some choices cannot be compared- The difference between risk and uncertainty- How framing shapes every decision- Why metrics can crowd out judgment- The danger of maximizing everything- Why good enough can be wiser- How choices fit into a larger life story- Why counting is not the same as thinking- And other topics…Barry Schwartz is the Dorwin P. Cartwright Professor Emeritus of Social Theory and Social Action in the Psychology Department at Swarthmore College, and Visiting Professor of Management at the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley. His work focuses on decision-making, motivation, moral judgment, and meaning in work and life. He is the author of The Battle for Human Nature, The Costs of Living, The Paradox of Choice, and Why We Work. He is also the co-author of Practical Wisdom (with Kenneth Sharpe) and Choose Wisely (with Richard Schuldenfrei).Resources Mentioned:Barry’s Book, Choose Wisely: Rationality, Ethics, and the Art of Decision-Making: https://www.amazon.com/Choose-Wisely-Rationality-Ethics-Decision-Making/dp/0300283997 Barry’s Book, The Paradox of Choice: Why More Is Less: https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/0060005688 Barry’s Book, Why We Work: https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Work-TED-Books/dp/1476784868 Work with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

April 14, 20261 hr 8 min

The Future of Work Starts Now: What You Do Today Shapes Tomorrow | Reanna Browne, Revisited

In many organizations, some people are focused on keeping the lights on. Others are pushing for change. But what if the future isn’t something out there waiting for us at all? What if it’s shaped by what we do—and don’t do—right now? For Reanna Browne, that shift starts with how we think. Change how we think about the future, and we change how we act in the present. In this revisited episode, Dart and Reanna discuss how the way we think about the future shapes what we do today.Reanna Browne is a futurist and founder of Work Futures, a strategic foresight consultancy. She works with organizations to rethink the future and translate foresight into action in the present.In this episode, Dart and Reanna discuss:- Why the future does not exist as a fixed endpoint- How thinking about the future changes how we act today- The difference between futures studies and strategic foresight- Why prediction is less useful than action- How action and inaction both shape the future- Keeping the lights on vs. making change- What “small bets” look like in everyday decisions- Why young people are rethinking the meaning of work- How language reveals deeper shifts in work and culture- Why there is no single future- And other topics…Reanna Browne is the founder of Work Futures, a consultancy specializing in strategic foresight. She has over a decade of experience working with public and private organizations on workforce strategy and change. She holds a Master’s degree in Strategic Foresight from Swinburne University. Her work focuses on helping organizations understand change and act with intention in the present.Resources Mentioned:Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned, by Kenneth O. Stanley: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237“The Bitter Lesson,” by Rich Sutton: http://www.incompleteideas.net/IncIdeas/BitterLesson.htmlEnlightenment Now, by Steven Pinker: https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Now-Science-Humanism-Progress/dp/0525427570Connect with Reanna:Work Futures: https://workfutures.com.au/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reannabrowneWork with Dart:Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.