Work For Humans

Hosted by Dart Lindsley

Business Management

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221

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Aug 2026

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About the show

Too often business leaders are forced to choose between the needs of their company and the needs of their employees. It’s a lose/lose scenario leaving managers burned out and workers seeking other opportunities. At Work for Humans, we believe work can be designed differently. When you design work like products people love, your company wins. Work becomes irresistible, employees passionately buy into their roles every day, and your company takes measurable strides towards your vision.

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August 18, 20261 hr 32 min

What We Get Wrong About Work | Barry Schwartz, Revisited

We’ve spent decades designing work around the idea that people need incentives to perform. But what happens when the systems designed to motivate people actually get in the way of motivation? Professor Barry Schwartz has spent decades studying what makes work meaningful, and his research challenges the idea that money and performance incentives are enough. In this revisited episode, Dart and Barry explore what people really want from work, why pay-for-performance can undermine motivation, and what organizations can do to create work where people have the autonomy and responsibility to do good work. In this episode, Dart and Barry discuss: - Why Barry wrote Why We Work ? - How did we learn what people want from work? - Lack of autonomy as a cost of employment - How has Why We Wor k been received? - How to protect against bias? - Practicing autonomy with restraint - The dangers of neglect in the workforce - And other topics… Barry Schwartz is an emeritus professor of psychology at Swarthmore College. He is the author of Why We Work , Practical Wisdom with Kenneth Sharpe, and The Paradox of Choice , as well as books on psychology, learning, and human behavior. His writing has appeared in The New York Times , Harvard Business Review , The Guardian , Scientific American , and other publications. Resources mentioned: Barry Schwartz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Schwartz_(psychologist) Why We Work by Barry Schwartz: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9781476784861 Practical Wisdom by Barry Schwartz: https://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9781594487835 The Paradox of Choice by Barry Schwartz: https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Choice-Why-More-Less/dp/149151423X Barry’s TedTalks: https://www.ted.com/speakers/barry_schwartz Jeffrey Pfeffer: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/ The Human Equation by Jeffrey Pfeffer: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0875848419 Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

August 11, 2026Episode 1951 hr 8 min

When Career Success Feels Unfulfilling | Megan Hellerer

Megan Hellerer had done everything she was supposed to do. She went to Stanford, graduated with a 3.9, and dutifully climbed the ladder at Google. But the life that looked great on paper felt terrible inside. A panic attack on the floor of a public restroom forced her to confront a bigger question: what if the problem wasn't choosing the wrong destination, but the idea that we need a destination at all? In this episode, Dart and Megan explore how we move from “destinational living” to “directional living,” and what it means to build a life and career by following curiosity, experimenting, and learning as we go. Megan Hellerer is the author of Directional Living and the founder of Coaching for Underfulfilled Overachievers. She spent eight years at Google in Strategic Partner Development before leaving to help other underfulfilled overachievers rethink work, success, and fulfillment. In this episode, Dart and Megan discuss: - The underfulfilled overachiever - Why success can still leave you miserable - Where our “shoulds” come from - Destinational vs. directional living - Why certainty can be so seductive - Curiosity over purpose - Using “warmer” and “colder” to find your direction - The value of small experiments - Designing more directional work - Can fulfillment become another destination? - And other topics… Megan Hellerer is the author of Directional Living: A Transformational Guide to Fulfillment in Work and Life and the founder of Coaching for Underfulfilled Overachievers. She has spent the past decade helping high-achieving people who feel unfulfilled rethink their relationship with work and success. Before becoming a career coach, she spent eight years at Google in Strategic Partner Development. She graduated from Stanford University with a degree in International Relations and is a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach. Resources Mentioned: Megan’s book: Directional Living: A Transformational Guide to Fulfillment in Work and Life : https://www.amazon.com/dp/0593299272 Designing Your Life , by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1101875321 Bill Burnett on Work for Humans : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/designing-your-life-how-to-use-design-principles-to/id1612743401?i=1000738307337 Margaret Heffernan on Work for Humans : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-hidden-cost-of-certainty-at-work-margaret-heffernan/id1612743401?i=1000754431168 Connect with Megan: Website: https://meganhellerer.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megan-hellerer-6868326/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

August 4, 20261 hr 1 min

The Core Value Equation: Building Culture That Scales | Darius Mirshahzadeh, Revisited

Darius Mirshahzadeh built the company he'd always wanted. In just three years, he grew it from a one-person operation into one of the fastest-growing companies in the United States. But when he looked around, he realized something unsettling: he hated the company he had created. That experience forced him to rethink what it really means to scale a business. In this revisited episode, Dart and Darius discuss how core values shape the way organizations grow, why culture must be designed intentionally, and what it takes to build a company that can scale without losing itself. Darius Mirshahzadeh is an entrepreneur, author, and leadership advisor who helps founders build values-driven organizations. He founded Twin Capital Mortgage, later served as CEO of The Money Source, and is the author of The Core Value Equation . In this episode, Dart and Darius discuss: - Building culture through values - When values become operational - Hiring for alignment - The language organizations create - Measuring engagement differently - Why some polarization is healthy - Scaling without losing your culture - Finding your calling - And other topics… Darius Mirshahzadeh is an entrepreneur, author, and leadership advisor who helps companies scale through strong culture and clearly defined core values. He founded Twin Capital Mortgage, growing it into one of the fastest-growing private companies in the United States, and later served as CEO of The Money Source. He is the author of The Core Value Equation , where he shares a framework for building organizations around values that guide hiring, leadership, and growth. Resources Mentioned: The Core Value Equation , by Darius Mirshahzadeh: https://www.amazon.com/Core-Value-Equation-Framework-Limitless/dp/1544506708 Connect with Darius: Official website: https://therealdarius.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dariusmirshahzadeh/ The Greatness Machine podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-greatness-machine/id1555334180 Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

July 28, 2026Episode 1941 hr 28 min

The Missing Discipline for Better Work | Chris Metcalfe

After years building software products, Chris Metcalfe crossed into People & Culture and noticed something surprising. Organizations invested enormous effort into understanding customers, testing ideas, and improving products, yet the work people did every day was rarely designed with the same discipline. That realization led him to ask a different question: what if work itself were managed like a product? In this episode, Dart and Chris discuss what happens when organizations move beyond HR as a service function, how product thinking changes the way work is designed, and why better work begins with solving the right problems. Chris Metcalfe is a product leader and organizational strategist helping organizations apply product management to the design of work. After leading product teams at Workday, Docebo, and Primark, he now helps People teams build product capabilities through Red Oak and PX as a Product. In this episode, Dart and Chris discuss: - HR through a product lens - Treating work like a product - The customer inside your company - Solving real work problems - Outcomes over outputs - The power of constraints - Product thinking for HR - Rethinking HR as product - And other topics… Chris Metcalfe is a product leader and organizational strategist who helps organizations apply product management to the design of work. He has held product leadership roles at Workday, Docebo, and Primark, where he led product teams spanning enterprise software and People & Culture. Today, he is the founder of Red Oak and PX as a Product, where he helps organizations build product-led People functions and apply product operating models to the design of work. He also writes The Operating Model , a newsletter on product leadership, organizational design, and the future of work. Resources Mentioned: Inspired , by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119387507 Transformed , by Marty Cagan: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119697336 SapienX: https://sapienx.co.uk/ Chris's newsletter, The Operating Model : https://metcalfec.substack.com/ Connect with Chris: Red Oak: https://www.red-oak.agency/ PX as a Product: https://pxasaproduct.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-metcalfe-red-oak/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

July 21, 20261 hr 4 min

Jobs to Be Done: A Better Way to Understand Customers | Jim Kalbach, Revisited

Most companies obsess over products, but Jim Kalbach believes they're asking the wrong question. Customers don't buy products because of what they are. They "hire" them to make progress in their lives. Jobs to Be Done is a way of uncovering that progress, helping organizations stop guessing what people want and start understanding twhat people are really trying to accomplish. In this revisited episode, Dart and Jim discuss how Jobs to Be Done helps organizations uncover unmet customer needs, align teams around real problems, and apply the framework to innovation, hiring, and finding the right work for people. Jim Kalbach is an author, speaker, and instructor in innovation, design, and the future of work. He is the Chief Evangelist at Mural and Co-Founder and Principal of the JTBD Toolkit, where he helps organizations apply Jobs to Be Done to innovation, product strategy, and customer experience. In this episode, Dart and Jim discuss: - Why customers "hire" products - Finding unmet customer needs - Solving problems, not building features - Using JTBD to drive innovation - Matching people to the right work - Understanding customer circumstances - A shared language for teams - Mindset before methodology - And other topics… Jim Kalbach is the Chief Evangelist at Mural and Co-Founder and Principal of the JTBD Toolkit, where he helps organizations apply Jobs to Be Done to innovation, product strategy, and customer experience. He is the author of Designing Web Navigation , Mapping Experiences , and The Jobs to Be Done Playbook , and co-author of Collaborative Intelligence . Before joining Mural, Jim worked in design and innovation consulting with organizations including eBay, Sony, IBM, EY, LexisNexis, and Citrix. Resources Mentioned: The Jobs to Be Done Playbook , by Jim Kalbach: https://www.amazon.com/Jobs-Be-Done-Playbook-Organization/dp/1933820683 Mapping Experiences , by Jim Kalbach: https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Experiences-Complete-Creating-Blueprints/dp/1491923539 JTBD Toolkit: https://www.jtbdtoolkit.com/ The Experience Economy , by B. Joseph Pine II and James H. Gilmore: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Economy-Competing-Customer-Time/dp/1633697975 Connect with Jim: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kalbach/ JTBD Toolkit: https://www.jtbdtoolkit.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

July 14, 2026Episode 1931 hr 12 min

Designing Better Work With Product Thinking | Vanessa Monsequeira

Vanessa Monsequeira spent years leading change initiatives and helping organizations roll out new systems. Again and again, she saw that the hardest part wasn't convincing people to change, it was that the work itself had never been intentionally designed. That realization led her to apply product thinking to the workplace, treating work as something to be researched, tested, and continuously improved. In this episode, Dart and Vanessa discuss what it means to design work intentionally, how product thinking is reshaping HR, and why the future of work depends less on new technology than on better design. Vanessa Monsequeira is a people and product leader who applies product thinking to the design of work. She has led People teams at Miro and Gorilla and now advises founders and executives on building more intentional, human-centered organizations. In this episode, Dart and Vanessa discuss: - Why work should be designed - HR as a product team - The MVP approach to work - Experimenting before scaling - Rethinking performance management - Designing fairness into systems - Better managers by design - AI as a learning partner - Leading with an abundance mindset - And other topics… Vanessa Monsequeira is a people and product leader who helps organizations design better work through product thinking. She has held leadership roles at Miro, Gorilla, PwC, Deloitte, and Philips, where she applied product management principles to people strategy, employee experience, and organizational design. Today, she advises founders and executives on building better workplaces, developing stronger leaders, and navigating AI-driven change. Connect with Vanessa: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessamonsequeira/ Website: https://www.vanessamonsequeira.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

July 7, 20261 hr 18 min

Beyond HR: The Rise of Human Development | Bob Aubrey, Revisited

Dr. Bob Aubrey has spent decades advancing the field of human development across Asia. With experience spanning 25 countries and six continents, he founded and chairs the Advisory Board of the ASEAN Human Development Organisation (AHDO), which promotes human development across the region and beyond. In this episode, Dart and Bob discuss the global human development movement, where it fits alongside HR, and what it means for capitalism, company profitability, and the future of work. Dr. Bob Aubrey is a human development consultant, author, educator, social entrepreneur, and leadership advisor whose work has spanned more than 25 countries across six continents. In this episode, Dart and Bob discuss: - How human deveolpment (HD) creates a better work environment - How HR and HD work together - HD curriculum and career paths - The importance of ethics in companies and investments - How Environmental Social Governance improves profitability - HD within the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) - HR practices in Western vs. non-Western nations - How to create an organization that prioritizes employee well-being - If and how HD can coexist with capitalism - And other topics... Dr. Bob Aubrey is a human development consultant, author, educator, social entrepreneur, and leadership advisor whose work has spanned more than 25 countries across six continents. He is the Founder and Chair of the Advisory Board of the ASEAN Human Development Organisation (AHDO) and the Managing Director of Bob Aubrey Associates. Bob has authored numerous books on human development and leadership, including Human Development Careers: Leading the Future of Work , one of the first books dedicated to careers in human development, and The Ethics of ASEAN . Through his writing, consulting, and educational initiatives, he continues to advance the field of human development across Southeast Asia and beyond. Resources mentioned: Human Development Careers, by Bob Aubrey: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Development-Careers-Leading-Future-ebook/dp/B08QJ1BS98 Measure of Man , by Bob Aubrey: https://www.amazon.com/Measure-Man-Leading-Human-Development-ebook/dp/B014IF1W36 The Structure of Scientific Revolutions , by Thomas S. Kuhn: https://www.amazon.com/Structure-Scientific-Revolutions-50th-Anniversary-ebook/dp/B007USH7J2 Human Resource Champions , by David Ulrich: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Resource-Champions-David-Ulrich/dp/0875847196 Connect with Bob: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobaubrey/ ASEAN Human Development Organisation: https://www.aseanhdo.com/about Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

June 30, 2026Episode 1921 hr 6 min

Teal Organizations: A Better Way to Organize Work | Matthew Spaur

Most organizations are built around hierarchy, clear reporting lines, and top-down control. But a growing number are experimenting with a different way of organizing work through self-management, distributed authority, and evolving purpose. As more organizations experiment with alternatives to traditional management, Matthew Spaur has spent years studying Teal organizations and what actually happens when hierarchy gives way to self-management. In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss what Teal really is, how self-managing organizations operate, and whether these post-bureaucratic management models are delivering on their promise. Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher who studies self-managing organizations and emerging models of work. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report , which tracks organizations experimenting with post-bureaucratic management. In this episode, Dart and Matthew discuss: - Beyond bureaucracy - What Teal organizations really are - Predict and control vs. sense and respond - Roles instead of job descriptions - Leadership without traditional bosses - Bringing your whole self to work - Organizations with an evolving purpose - Are these models actually working? - AI and the future of management - And other topics… Matthew Spaur is a marketing consultant, author, and researcher focused on emerging models of organization and management. He is a co-author of the annual Teal Landscape Report , a global study of organizations experimenting with self-management and other post-bureaucratic management practices. Through his consulting work, Matthew helps organizations communicate their ideas, adapt to change, and rethink how work is organized. Resources Mentioned: Reinventing Organizations , by Frederic Laloux: https://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Organizations-Creating-Inspired-Consciousness/dp/2960133501 Holacracy: The New Management System for a Rapidly Changing World , by Brian J. Robertson: https://www.amazon.com/Holacracy-Management-System-Rapidly-Changing/dp/162779428X Connect with Matthew: Official website: https://matthewspaur.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewspaur/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

June 23, 20261 hr 14 min

Experience Design: Creating More Meaningful Work | Abraham Burickson, Revisited

Twenty years ago, Abraham Burickson and his collaborators asked a simple question: what if a work of art were designed for just one person? Instead of creating experiences for the masses, they spent months crafting deeply personal journeys for an audience of one. That experiment grew into a new way of thinking about design, participation, and transformation. In this revisited episode, Dart and Abraham discuss what those lessons can teach us about management, why experience cannot be fully designed, and how organizations can become platforms for people to create meaning together. Abraham Burickson is an author, speaker, and experience designer who has spent more than two decades exploring how designed experiences can transform people. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works and the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto . In this episode, Dart and Abraham discuss: - How to create a transformative experience for a single individual - Can managers be experience designers? - Why experience is not designable - How to implement experience design at work - Baking experiences within static products - Designing for transformation - Work as a shared experience - The origin story and myths of organizations - And other topics… Abraham Burickson is an author, experience designer, and artist who has spent more than two decades exploring how design shapes human experience. He is the co-founder and Artistic Director of Odyssey Works, where he creates immersive performances for audiences of one, and co-directs the Experience Design Certificate Program. Trained in architecture at Cornell University, his work spans art, design, education, and consulting. He is the author of Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto and co-author of Odyssey Works: Transformative Experiences for an Audience of One . Resources mentioned: Experience Design , by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Experience-Design-Participatory-Abraham-Burickson/dp/0300269471 Odyssey Works , by Abraham Burickson: https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-Works-Transformative-Experiences-Audience/dp/1616895152 The Anatomy of Genres , by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227 Connect with Abraham: https://www.abrahamburickson.com/ https://www.owprograms.com/ Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .

June 16, 2026Episode 1911 hr 6 min

Building Organizations for a Future That Doesn't Fit the Past | Rishad Tobaccowala

Rishad Tobaccowala has spent much of his career breaking out of boxes. First it was the spreadsheet and the idea that organizations can be managed through numbers alone. Then it was the office and the assumptions built into how we supervise and coordinate work. More recently, he has turned his attention to the broader structures that shape how we work and learn. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss the limits of measurement, management as a zone of control versus a zone of influence, and why the future may not fit inside the containers we inherited from the past. In this episode, Dart and Rishad discuss: - The containers that shape our thinking - Why spreadsheets can blind us - When measurement becomes the mission - Talent without opportunity - The office as a management tool - Control versus influence - Why companies become zoos - What CEOs say about AI - Why people resist transformation - Choosing with our hearts, not our heads - And other topics… Rishad Tobaccowala is an author, advisor, speaker, and teacher focused on helping people and organizations thrive in times of change. He is the author of Rethinking Work and Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data . Rishad spent nearly four decades at Publicis Groupe, where he served as Global Chief Strategist and Chief Growth Officer. Today he advises leaders around the world on leadership, innovation, technology, and the future of work. He also writes The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past , a newsletter on change and reinvention. Resources Mentioned: Rishad’s Book, Rethinking Work : https://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Work-Seismic-Changes-Where/dp/1400249309 Rishad’s Book, Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data : https://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Soul-Business-Staying-Human/dp/1400210542 Rishad’s Newsletter, The Future Does Not Fit in the Containers of the Past : https://rishad.substack.com/ Connect with Rishad: Official website: https://rishadtobaccowala.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rishadtobaccowala/ Twitter/X: https://x.com/rishad Work with Dart: Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold . Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com .