VWO Podcast

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Jun 2026

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Looking to grow your business in today's competitive landscape? Join top experts from every industry for a behind-the-scenes look at the latest strategies for success. From SEO hacks and PPC campaigns to email conversions and A/B testing, we cover it all. Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/vwo-podcast/id1668802004 Podbean: https://www.podbean.com/site/default/externalPodcastBadges Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9kNDhmODUwYy9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw

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June 3, 20261 hr 7 min

The Best CRO Teams Optimize Journeys, Not Pages | Emily Isted

What separates CRO programs that actually move the needle from ones that just produce interesting data? According to Emily Isted, Director of CRO at Hype Digital, it comes down to one thing: stop running small iterative tests, start making bold moves.In this episode, Emily joins Devon Boyd for a wide-ranging conversation on how Hype Digital builds and runs high-impact experimentation programs for clients across e-commerce, iGaming, travel, SaaS, and more. From a 20% lift in deposit rates to a flight-booking test worth 100,000+ rand, Emily shares the real-world results that come from testing journeys, not just pages.She also gets into how AI is reshaping the agency's workflows and why AI-referred users need an entirely different conversion strategy.Want to run experiments that actually move the needle for your business? Schedule a free demo with VWO now → https://vwo.com/00:00: Episode trailer01:12: About VWO02:09: Meet Emily Isted: From ballet dancer to Director of CRO05:19: Why CRO starts seeping into everyday life (even dating)08:46: How Hype Digital onboards clients and why they never use a blueprint approach12:41: The data backlog problem: when insights sit unopened and what to do about it15:58: How AI is saving Hype Digital 15+ hours a week — and where it's still falling short20:55: Why big-swing tests beat small iterative ones every time23:15: The flight booking breadcrumb test that generated 100K+ rand in additional revenue26:08: You're not optimizing pages. You're optimizing journeys.30:25: KPIs that matter: from conversion rate to revenue per user to lifetime value35:03: How Hype Digital uses VWO as a CRO hub — including the MCP workflow39:20: Zero-click and AI traffic: why your CRO strategy needs to adapt now43:37: Are Claude users and ChatGPT users behaving differently on your site?46:39: How running experiments breaks down internal silos and changes company culture51:34: How behavioral data helped overturn a business decision54:05: Test to learn, not to win: the mindset shift that changes everything57:43: Rapid fire round56:06 One CRO metric you wish people would stop obsessing over57:20 One thing your non-industry friends don't understand about your job59:01 One thing AI will take over in the next two years01:01:08 If not CRO or ballet, what would you be doing?01:01:48 Advice for anyone starting a career in CRO today01:06:05: Emily's final message: keep connecting, keep sharing🎙️ About the VWO PodcastRecognized as a finalist at the CMA Awards 2025 for Best B2B Podcast. We talk to CRO practitioners, agency leaders, and experimentation experts about what it really takes to understand your users and grow your business through data-driven optimization.

May 20, 202652 min

Was der DACH-Markt beim Thema CRO immer noch falsch versteht | Antonia Grzelak

Viele Growth-Teams stoßen irgendwann an eine Grenze. Nicht weil ihre Kampagnen nicht funktionieren, sondern weil der Funnel dahinter nicht funktioniert.In der neuesten Episode des VWO-Podcasts erklärt Antonia Grzelak, Manager of Growth and Innovation bei FUNKE Works, wie sie dieses Problem betrachtet und was es tatsächlich braucht, um es zu lösen. 🎙️Antonia verantwortet das Wachstum einiger der bekanntesten Karriere- und Ausbildungsplattformen Deutschlands, darunter Azubiyo und Absolventa.Im Gespräch mit Maximilian Fronn spricht sie über:✅ Die vier Checkpoints, die sie prüft, bevor ein Test live geht💡 Warum ein fehlgeschlagener Test keine Zeitverschwendung ist, und wie man das intern erfolgreich vermittelt🤖 Wie KI den Weg von der ersten Beobachtung bis zum Live-Experiment verkürzt🚧 Was es wirklich braucht, um eine Experimentationskultur aufzubauen die über das Marketing hinausgeht⚡ Wie VWO ihrem Team geholfen hat, schneller zu arbeiten_____________________________________Most growth teams hit a wall at some point. Not because their campaigns aren't working, but because the funnel behind them isn't.In our latest episode of the VWO Podcast, Antonia Grzelak, Manager of Growth and Innovation at FUNKE Works, shares how she thinks about that problem and what it actually takes to fix it. 🎙️Antonia leads growth across some of Germany's most visited career and training platforms, including Azubiyo and Absolventa. Over the years, she's turned experimentation from a marketing activity into a company-wide growth engine. In this episode, she gets into the details of how.Here's some of what she covers 👇🔍 How to tell the difference between a traffic problem and a conversion problem🚧 What it looks like when great content drives traffic but never converts✅ The four checkpoints she uses before any test goes live💡 Why a failed test is not a waste of time, and how to make that case inside your organisation🤖 How AI is shortening the path from first observation to live experiment⚡ How VWO has helped her team move faster_____________________________________00:00 Episode trailer03:02 Warm-up: Antonias Ritual vor wichtigen Meetings und Podcasts04:21 Pre-Click vs. Post-Click: Woran erkennst du ein Website-Problem?06:19 Funnel-Engpass: Wie hoher Traffic ohne Conversions zur Sackgasse wird09:05 Mindset-Shift: Warum CRO-Verantwortung oft im Unklaren bleibt14:52 North Star Metrik: Welche Kennzahl wirklich langfristiges Wachstum misst18:52 Hypothesen-Framework: Die vier Checkpoints vor jedem Test20:52 Mobile vs. Desktop: Wo finden die wertvolleren Conversions statt?23:20 Nach dem Test: Ausrollen, segmentieren oder iterieren?25:22 Priorisierung: Wie der ICE-Score hilft, die richtigen Tests zuerst anzugehen27:09 Testserie Berufsprofile: Wie kleine Uplifts gemeinsam große Wirkung erzielen31:06 Stakeholder Buy-in: Skeptiker zu Mitstreitern machen34:32 KI im Testing: Wie künstliche Intelligenz die Hypothesenbildung beschleunigt37:33 CRO-Reifegrad: Wo steht Deutschland beim strukturierten Experimentieren?42:49 Roadmap: Matching, Personalisierung und mehr Experimente pro Quartal47:04 Oddball-Frage: Welche Superkraft würde Antonia wählen?48:43 Rapid Fire Runde49:04 Rapid Fire: Was würdest du am Karrierestart in CRO anders machen?49:59 Rapid Fire: Was Freunde außerhalb der Branche an Antonias Job nicht verstehen50:43 Rapid Fire: Wem sollte jeder CRO-Profi folgen?51:11 Rapid Fire: Was wird KI in den nächsten drei Jahren übernehmen?51:32 Rapid Fire: Welche CRO-Kennzahl wird zu sehr überbewertet?

April 29, 202647 min

Simplicity Is The Most Underrated CRO Strategy in FinTech | Vipul Sharma

Optimizing for the right metric changes everything. In the new episode of the VWO Podcast, we explore what happens when you prioritize intent over volume. 🎙️Host Subho Mukherjee sits down with Vipul Sharma, Head of Digital Revenue at SBI Securities, one of India's leading investment platforms. Vipul works at the intersection of product, growth, and customer experience, He focuses on building digital-first tools that improve onboarding, drive engagement, and deliver sustainable revenue growth.In this conversation, Vipul talks about:✅ Personalizing first-time user experiences based on product preferences ✅ Using in-house ML scoring system to identify high-intent users across the funnel ✅ Combining behavioral data with financial indicators like credit scores ✅ Why simple UI beats feature-heavy journeys for activation ✅ Reducing drop-offs post-account creation through targeted nudges ✅ How AI enables user-segment personalization and contextual support ✅ Securing user safety in high-risk products like derivatives tradingThis episode delivers practical insights into designing activation flows and balancing growth with responsible user outcomes. 🚀If the ideas in this episode resonate with how your team thinks about growth and revenue, see how VWO can help you get there: https://bit.ly/3P71LhuChapters:[00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [02:07] Subho and Vipul kickstart the conversation [03:16] Vipul's ritual before big meetings[04:15] Personalizing first-time user experiences based on product preferences [06:47] Using the in-house ML scoring system to identify high-intent users across the funnel[09:30] Combining behavioral and financial data to personalize responsibly [14:51] Reducing post-account creation drop-offs through education [16:12] An experiment that changed how Vipul thinks about user behavior [17:05] How ML scoring shapes experimentation and nudges [22:05] Balancing signup volume with high-intent signals [26:05] AI's role in hyper-personalization and contextual support [32:09] Safeguards for sensitive products like derivatives and risky stocks [34:09] Why education is the biggest opportunity for Indian investors [40:01] Vipul's personal AI projects[41:36] Rapid fire round: One thing Vipul would do differently starting in CRO today [42:51] What non-industry friends don't understand about his job [43:12] Product leader Vipul looks up to[43:23] Go-to travel destination[44:48] What AI will take over[45:37] Alternative profession[47:06] Dream goal for the next 3 years[47:37] Subho and Vipul sign off

April 8, 202659 min

Why CRO Is Still Misunderstood In The MENAT Region (And How To Fix It) | Mohammed Mohsin

Most enterprise clients still think CRO is just A/B testing. Mohammed Mohsin reveals the broader opportunity. 🎙️In the new episode of the VWO podcast, host Devon Boyd sits down with Mohammed Mohsin, Business Director at ACXIOM MENA.Here, Mo leads strategic initiatives across SEO, content, and Conversion Rate Optimization for enterprise clients across the GCC region.With deep expertise in digital acquisition and optimization, Mo brings a leadership perspective on how organizations can connect SEO, user experience, and experimentation to drive sustainable growth. In this conversation, Mo shares insights from the front lines of CRO adoption, where awareness exists but maturity is still evolving. He shares insights on:✅ The current state of CRO awareness and maturity among enterprise brands ✅ How losing tests can build client trust through transparent learnings ✅ The impact of CRO maturity on paid media, SEO, and lifecycle marketing effectiveness ✅ Securing experimentation budgets by framing them as R&D for marketing teams ✅ Navigating multi-agency dynamics where CRO is seen as a threat to media budgets ✅ How AI is reshaping CRO through faster hypothesis generation and smarter personalization ✅ The future of experimentation adoption and the mindset shifts neededThis episode delivers practical insights on the value of CRO beyond just conversion uplift.Chapters:[00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [02:00] Devon and Mo kickstart the conversation [03:52] Mo's journey to leading CRO [04:35] Something exciting Mo is working on[05:50] The moment Mo fell in love with CRO [08:30] Current state of CRO awareness and maturity among enterprise brands [11:45] When CRO typically enters the client conversation [15:20] Client tech stacks and behavioral insight tools [20:53] Handling failed tests and building client trust through transparency [25:58] How CRO maturity impacts other channels like paid media and SEO [29:35] Securing innovation budgets for experimentation [34:50] Cross-team collaboration and feeding the experimentation backlog [38:50] Platform capabilities brands should look for at different maturity stages [39:45] How AI is reshaping CRO and decision-making [44:20] The future of experimentation adoption [47:50] Rapid fire round: Best advice Mo has ever received [49:30] One thing Mo would do differently starting in CRO today [51:50] What non-industry friends don't understand about his job [52:24] What AI will take over in the next 3 years [55:35] One CRO metric people should stop obsessing over [56:56] Mo's dream goal for the next 3 to 5 years [58:50] Devon and Mo sign off

March 25, 20261 hr 14 min

Small Product Bets Can Build Big Fintech Platforms | Sourabh Gupta

"You can have autonomy, but without alignment, it leads to chaos. And if you have alignment without autonomy, it leads to bureaucracy." - Sourabh GuptaWelcome to the latest episode of the VWO Podcast! 🎙️In this episode, host Reuben John sits down with Sourabh Gupta, SVP of Product and Design at Flip, one of Indonesia's largest FinTech platforms. With over 17 years of experience building and scaling FinTech and consumer tech platforms, Sourabh has spent his career turning complex financial systems into simple, trusted products people use every day.At Flip, Sourabh leads product, design, and data across a growing portfolio of 10+ products, driving adoption, revenue, and impact while building and scaling teams and systems. He shares insights on:✅ Balancing speed and compliance in regulated Fintech environments ✅ Empowering cross-functional teams with shared goals and autonomous execution ✅ Learning from product failures and applying insights to achieve outcomes ✅ How AI has transformed product development from PRD writing to hypothesis generation ✅ Recurring blind spots and misconceptions about experimentation in Fintech ✅ The product instinct leaders must unlearn to democratize decision-makingThis episode delivers hard-won insights from the front lines of high-growth Fintech. 🚀[00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [02:03] Reuben and Sourabh kickstart the conversation [04:00] Rituals or habits to get in the zone before a podcast or big meeting [07:00] Flip's most pivotal product bet and why culture beats individual wins [11:45] Prioritizing experimentation across 10+ products at different maturity stages[11:45] Managing experiments that do not have an obvious impact on core product metrics [18:15] Balancing speed and compliance in a highly regulated FinTech environment [23:36] Building and sustaining an experimentation culture from scratch [26:00] The problem of over-experimenting and finding the right balance [30:38] Empowering cross-functional teams with shared goals and autonomous execution [35:57] Learning from product failures[44:06] AI-driven innovation and its impact on product development[53:23] Importance of phased rollouts[56:03] Recurring blind spots in FinTech[59:44] The product instinct Sourabh had to unlearn to become an experimentation leader [1:03:44] Sourabh's favorite travel destination [1:05:30] Rapid fire round: One thing Sourabh would do differently if he started in product today [1:06:03] What non-industry friends don't understand about your job [1:07:14] One product leader you must follow[1:08:19] Sourabh's book recommendations[1:09:46] Best piece of advice you've received [1:10:37] One thing AI will take over in the next 3 years [1:11:17] If not product management, what other profession would you have chosen?[1:11:39] One metric people should stop obsessing over[1:12:44] Dream or goal you want to achieve in the next 3 years [1:13:17] Reuben and Sourabh sign off

March 4, 20261 hr 7 min

How to Run B2B Marketing Experiments That Actually Move the Needle

In this episode of the VWO Podcast, host Natalia Gamarra, Area Vice President for VWO ANZ, sits down with Saumya Goila, fractional Head of Digital Marketing at Rewardz.Saumya draws on 14+ years of experience across media agencies and global brands to discuss how CRO has evolved far beyond page-level tweaks.The conversation spans the nuances of marketing in APAC's fragmented markets, the psychological differences between B2B and B2C testing, and how data makes difficult stakeholder conversations easier.Saumya also shares her views on AI as a force multiplier, the dangers of vanity testing, and why patience is the most underrated quality in any experimentation program.Listeners working in B2B SaaS, growth marketing, or digital strategy will find this episode packed with grounded, practical perspectives.Schedule a demo with VWO: https://vwo.com/demo/?utm_source=social&utm_medium=spotify&utm_campaign=tof_eg_podcastChapters:01:55: Natalia & Saumya kick off the conversation03:40: Early career dreams & landing in digital marketing05:21: Where do brand and performance converge?08:32: Balancing paid growth with other channels12:57: Experiments that shape Saumya's APAC strategy18:38: What do high-impact tests look like in B2B-SaaS?22:04: Ensuring teams stay aligned on a shared North Star25:50: Experimentation in mature CRO markets like Singapore31:08: How buyer psychology differs in B2C vs B2B34:02: Evolution of CRO as a decision-making system37:05: Using data to deal with stakeholder debates and opinions39:44: Importance of learning from "failed" tests45:08: Why teams must avoid short-term test campaigns48:16: Looking at AI as a force multiplier52:25: Best advice Saumya has received56:31: Rapid fire round - If you were starting a career in marketing today, what would you do differently?58:37: One thing your non-industry friends still don't understand about your job59:51: Go-to travel destination59:51: Go-to travel destination01:01:06: One thing AI will take over in the next three years01:02:50: If not marketing, what other profession would you have chosen?01:04:26: One CRO metric that people should stop obsessing over1:05:04: A dream or goal you wish to achieve in the next three years1:06:09: Natalia & Saumya wrap up the conversation

February 23, 202643 min

How To Scale Experimentation Without An Agency | Lucia van den Brink

Schedule a personalized demo with VWO: https://bit.ly/4tXw61JThe Initial: https://the-initial.com/Lucia's Quarterly Impact Calculator: https://the-initial.com/impact-calculatorIn this episode, host Shilpa Bharti sits down with Lucia van den Brink, who has spent over a decade helping teams figure out how to conduct experimentation effectively, not just more frequently.Lucia has worked with teams running anywhere from one test a month to hundreds, helping them improve both velocity and quality. But after years as both an in-house practitioner and agency leader, Lucia realized something critical: You can't rent a data-driven cultureNow, through The Initial, she's focused on helping organizations make the shift from dependency to ownership.In this conversation, Lucia shares why external help has its limits, how to transition teams from guided support to independence, and what it actually takes to sustain experimentation when leadership changes or budgets shift.Lucia shares insights on:✅ Transitioning teams from close guidance to independent ownership ✅ Common concerns leaders raise about owning experimentation in-house ✅ Building systems and habits vs. running isolated tests ✅ How teams can quantify the value of their CRO program with the Quarterly Impact CalculatorChapters:[00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [01:57] Shilpa and Lucia kickstart the conversation [05:08] What led Lucia to start The Initial after years as a consultant and agency leader [09:10] Transitioning from closely guiding teams to stepping back [11:23] Common concerns leaders raise when hearing "own experimentation." [13:35] Dependency patterns teams need to unlearn before building in-house capability [15:49] Building an experimentation culture within different teams[19:11] Reactions from the CRO community[21:37] Does in-house ownership change how teams think about metrics and accountability?[23:40] Where advanced experiments fit in and common pitfalls when teams start too big [27:04] What teams should expect tools to handle and where capability takes over [30:00] Does AI add value beyond automation in experimentation?[31:52] One piece of advice for sustaining ownership long-term [35:30] Final thoughts[37:16] Rapid fire round: One thing Lucia would do differently starting in CRO today [38:30] What Lucia's non-industry friends don't understand about her job [39:14] CRO professionals to follow[40:11] Go-to travel destination[40:30] What AI will take over in the next 3 years [41:04] If not CRO, what alternative profession would Lucia have chosen?[41:43] One CRO metric people should stop obsessing over[00:00] Shilpa and Lucia sign off

February 4, 202652 min

Are You Analyzing Problems Or Just Collecting Data? | Kandeel Chauhan

Most teams think behavioral analytics is just for pre-test research. Kandeel Chauhan reveals why post-test analysis is where the real learning begins. :bulb:In this episode, host Niti Sharma sits down with Kandeel Chauhan, Director of Product & Engineering at VWO, who has been instrumental in spearheading VWO Insights into one of the flagship products.From leading Quality Assurance to now shaping enterprise-grade products, Kandeel shares what it takes to build products customers trust and love. He's passionate about creating tools that help businesses deeply understand user behavior and drive measurable impact on growth and revenue.Kandeel shares insights on:✅ Moving from fragmented feature development to building a unified enterprise platform ✅ Why behavioral analysis delivers value at every stage: pre-test, mid-test, and post-test ✅ Understanding the customer awareness spectrum and why CRO maturity matters ✅ A top-down approach to behavioral insights✅ How VWO Copilot came to life and what it means for teams of all sizes ✅ The human elements AI will never replace in behavioral analysis ✅ How experimentation has been democratized and where the industry is headed nextChapters:[00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [01:51] Niti and Kandeel kickstart the conversation [04:29] Something exciting Kandeel is working on[05:53] Moments and decisions that defined Kandeel's growth from QA to product leader [10:45] Strategic turning points in building VWO Insights as a flagship product [16:40] Using behavioral analysis before, during, and after A/B tests [20:44] How customers across the awareness spectrum understand behavioral analytics [27:00] Behavioral analysis as an empathy engine [29:50] Advice for teams starting with behavioral insights[32:40] AI's future in behavioral insights[38:20] What AI can't replace: Human judgment, empathy, and strategic vision[38:20] One change in how people look at experimentation and learning today[46:22] Message for listeners[47:37] Rapid fire round: One thing Kandeel would do differently starting in CRO today [47:56] What non-industry friends don't understand about Kandeel's job [48:17] A CRO professional that everyone must follow[48:56] Kandeel's book recommendations[49:47] Go-to travel destination[50:16] If not CRO, what other profession would Kandeel have chosen?[50:39] Dream or goal Kandeel wants to achieve in the next 3 years[51:26] Niti and Kandeel sign off

December 10, 202541 min

Does Your North Star Metric Matter More Than ROI? Arshdeep Singh On Strategic CRO

Most companies treat CRO as just another conversion tactic.But what if CRO could be your tool for capital allocation decisions?In this episode, Arshdeep Singh, Former Senior Director of Technology at Kapiva, sits down with our host Niti Sharma for an in-depth conversation.He shares how he transformed experimentation from isolated AB tests into a strategic growth engine that helped scale the company to multimillion-dollar revenue.Arshdeep has nearly two decades of experience scaling platforms, leading high-performing engineering teams, and driving AI-led transformation.During the episode, Arshdeep also reveals the frameworks, mindsets, and guardrails needed to make experimentation work across product, engineering, data, and CX teams.Key insights from this conversation:- How to identify and operationalize compounding loops for exponential growth- Why experimentation should drive capital allocation decisions, not just conversion uplift- Setting North Star metrics and guardrails to prevent siloed optimization- Building a culture of testing that celebrates learning, not just wins- Democratizing CRO across non-tech teams without compromising qualityChapters:00:00 - Episode trailer01:54 - Niti and Arshdeep kick off the conversation04:09 - Scaling from early stage to multimillion-dollar revenue through CRO06:30 - What are compounding loops in experimentation?07:27 - Essential cultural traits for cross-functional experimentation09:00 - How AI is reshaping experimentation speed and quality11:08 - Using AI to safeguard reliability in customer experiences12:45 - Mobile-first experimentation: Beyond transactions to habit loops14:40 - The ICE Framework for experiment prioritization17:07 - Why data-driven decisions beat intuition (but intuition still matters)19:53 - Setting guardrails: Shared objectives and North Star metrics22:06 - Moving from conversion tactics to strategic growth enabler25:15 - Getting CRO buy-in from leadership and stakeholders26:49 - How VWO helped democratize experimentation at Kapiva29:00 - Why some companies succeed at experimentation (and others fail)31:42 - Best advice Arshdeep has received33:50 - Rapid Fire: If you were starting a career in CRO today, what would you do differently?34:13 - One thing your non-industry friends don't understand about your job.35:06 - Book recommendations36:06 - Go-to travel destination36:52 - One thing AI will take over in the next 3 years37:42 - If not tech, what other profession would you have chosen?38:50 - Dream or goal you want to accomplish in the next 3 years39:59 - Advice for listeners40:38 - Niti and Arshdeep sign off

November 12, 202541 min

From Website Funnels To Live Global Events: May Chin’s Incredible CRO Journey

Most product leaders can easily test and roll back failures. But May Chin builds for live events where a global audience sees every mistake. 🎯In the latest episode of the VWO podcast, our host Bhavan Kochhar is in conversation with May Chin, Product Leader at Token 2049 and Super AI, two of the world's most prominent tech conferences.With a track record of scaling consumer platforms across Southeast Asia at Zalora, Mindvalley, Lazada, and iProperty, May now orchestrates end-to-end technology strategy for global events, delivering seamless experiences for attendees and sponsors at a massive scale.In this conversation, May opens up about building products when timelines are fixed and AI features need to be shipped in days. This episode is packed with hard-won insights and a fresh perspective on building great products. 🚀Chapters: [00:00] A quick sneak peek into the episode [01:54] Bhavan and May kickstart the conversation [03:35] May's pre-podcast and pre-event rituals[04:48] Building for global conferences vs. consumer platforms [08:37] Defining product success when serving both attendees and sponsors [11:56] Prioritization under tight timelines and high-stakes environments [15:13] Using low-code and AI-driven tools to reduce complexity and empower non-technical teams [17:56] Where human discretion becomes essential despite automation and AI [20:28] Practical approaches to democratizing experimentation across functions [24:05] Aligning cross-functional teams around shared priorities despite competing KPIs [29:13] Biggest opportunities for product leaders combining AI and experimentation [32:14] May's biggest mindset shift as a product leader [35:14] Early career advice that shaped May's journey [37:02] Rapid fire round: One thing May would do differently starting in CRO today [37:29] The CRO metric people should stop obsessing over [37:58] What AI will replace in the next 3 years [38:44] Three Book recommendations[39:47] May's dream goal for the next 3 years [40:37] Bhavan and May sign off