Tried and Tested Podcast

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Aug 2026

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Welcome to PSI’s Tried and Tested Podcast, hosted by Isabelle Gonthier. Tune in every other Thursday for expert conversations on testing, credentialing, and assessment. Each episode explores industry trends, practical insights, and the real work behind high stakes testing, featuring leaders and practitioners shaping the future of the assessment industry.

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September 3, 202644 min

From School to Skills: Rethinking Assessment, Credentials, and Workforce Readiness with Chad Buckendahl

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP speaks with Chad Buckendahl, PhD, ICE-CCP, Managing Partner at ACS Ventures, about how assessment, credentials, and workforce readiness can be better connected across the learner journey. Drawing on his work in program design, evaluation, standard setting, policy, legal issues, and validation studies across credentialing and education, Chad explores why school, work, and professional credentialing should not be treated as separate systems. As more education and credentialing leaders look for ways to connect classroom learning with future careers, Chad explains why durable skills, quantitative reasoning, data interpretation, and career-connected credentials deserve closer attention. The conversation covers credentials as checkpoints across lifelong learning, the role of high school in building workforce-ready skills, the risks of siloed systems, the importance of validity, reliability, and fairness, and why AI literacy should start with being a critical consumer of new technologies. What you’ll learn: How credentials can serve as checkpoints across a lifelong learning pathway Why school, workforce, and professional credentialing systems need stronger connections What durable skills, including reading, communication, and quantitative reasoning, mean for career readiness Why data interpretation may be one of the most important skills students need for work and life How high school credentials can help students explore career pathways without narrowing opportunity What education and credentialing leaders should consider before adding workforce credentials to school programs Why AI literacy should focus on critical thinking, source credibility, and responsible use How multidisciplinary learning can help people adapt as work, technology, and assessment continue to evolve Who should listen: Education and assessment leaders connecting school outcomes to workforce readiness Credentialing and certification professionals exploring earlier career pathways K-12 and secondary education leaders evaluating workforce-related credentials Employers and workforce development teams focused on durable skills and talent pipelines Psychometricians and program evaluators working across education and credentialing Policy and program leaders responsible for validity, fairness, and quality assurance Organizations thinking about how AI and technology should shape future-ready skills About the guest: Chad Buckendahl, PhD, ICE-CCP , is a Managing Partner with ACS Ventures, LLC with an emphasis in program design, evaluation, standard setting, policy, and legal issues. Dr. Buckendahl has designed and led development and validation studies for programs in credentialing and education. He regularly contributes thought leadership through professional conference presentations, white papers, journal articles, and book chapters. He currently serves on the joint committee for the revision of the Standards for Educational and Psychological Testing, technical advisory committees in the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom for diverse licensure, certification, and education programs; and previously served on volunteer committees for the Association of Test Publishers (ATP), Institute for Credentialing Excellence (I.C.E.), International Test Commission (ITC), and National Council on Measurement in Education (NCME).

August 20, 202633 min

Start Small, Build Trust, Scale Up: WPI’s Approach to AI in Credentialing

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP speaks with Haley Vanness, CAE, ICE-CCP, CMP, AAiP, Vice President of Water Professionals International, about WPI’s journey toward building trust in AI adoption. Drawing on her work leading certification programs for water and wastewater professionals, Haley shares how WPI approached AI intentionally, starting with a practical use case that could support candidates, engage subject matter experts, and build confidence with the board and stakeholders. As credentialing organizations explore where AI can responsibly fit into program strategy, Haley explains why WPI began with practice exam development before expanding into broader operational opportunities. The conversation covers board confidence, stakeholder communication, SME review and oversight, candidate preparation, AI governance, application and renewal workflows, exam development, and why successful AI adoption depends on solving real problems, staying transparent, and scaling only after trust has been built. What you’ll learn: Why WPI chose practice exam development as a practical starting point for AI adoption How board oversight, stakeholder expectations, and public trust shaped WPI’s approach Why AI adoption should begin with a real program need, not a technology announcement How subject matter experts supported item development, rationales, references, and review What changes when SMEs move from manual creation toward validation, refinement, and oversight How AI-supported practice tools can help candidates understand concepts, not just answer questions Where AI can support operations such as communications, applications, renewals, and candidate support Why governance, transparency, and human oversight are essential as AI use expands Who should listen: Credentialing and certification leaders exploring AI adoption Program owners balancing innovation, governance, and stakeholder trust Assessment professionals involved in item development, practice tests, or exam preparation Subject matter expert committees adapting to AI-supported workflows Licensure and certification organizations serving public safety professions Operations and product teams looking for responsible ways to use AI Organizations moving from small AI pilots toward broader program strategy About the Guest: Haley Vanness is the Vice President of Water Professionals International (WPI), where she leads strategic initiatives and oversees the development and growth of certification programs serving water and wastewater professionals worldwide. During her tenure, she has played a key role in expanding WPI’s in-house certification programs, enhancing their value, improving operational efficiency, and increasing engagement across the industry. Her work focuses on advancing workforce development, modernizing credentialing practices, and integrating innovative solutions—including artificial intelligence—into certification and program operations. Haley collaborates closely with industry partners, subject matter experts, and organizational leadership to ensure programs remain relevant, data-driven, and aligned with evolving workforce needs. With a background in neuroscience, psychology, and credentialing, she brings a unique, analytical approach to program design and strategic decision-making. Haley is passionate about building sustainable systems, strengthening professional pathways, and supporting the continued growth and recognition of water professionals.

August 6, 202637 min

Taking the Future of Credentialing from Conversation to Practice with Pam Young Brown

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP speaks with Pam Young Brown, a product strategy consultant working at the intersection of skills assessment, credentialing, and workforce development. Drawing on her experience leading certification and learning products at Amazon Web Services and the Graduate Management Admission Council, Pam shares a practical perspective on where credentialing is headed and what it takes to build programs that remain meaningful as skills, technology, and workforce expectations evolve. As organizations move from talking about the future of credentialing to actually building it, Pam explains why modernization must start with customer needs, clear outcomes, and a realistic view of organizational risk. The conversation covers shorter skill shelf lives, lifelong learning, microcredentials and badges, employer trust, technology-enabled assessment experiences, the role of AI in exam development and security, and how credentialing organizations can balance innovation, speed, rigor, and credibility. What you’ll learn: Why the pace of change is forcing credentialing organizations to rethink how quickly programs evolve How shorter skill shelf lives are reshaping certification, microcredentials, and lifelong learning Why credentialing should tell a broader story about a person’s skills, experience, and growth What learners and employers need in order to understand and trust newer credentialing models How technology can improve exam development, security, and candidate experience when tied to a clear strategy Why speed and efficiency should not come at the expense of quality, validity, or reliability How organizations can balance incremental improvements with more disruptive innovation Where to start when moving from future-of-credentialing conversations to practical action Who should listen: Credentialing and certification leaders modernizing their programs Assessment professionals balancing innovation, rigor, and trust Product leaders building skills assessment or workforce learning solutions Workforce development teams focused on upskilling and future-ready talent Organizations exploring microcredentials, badges, or new skill recognition models Employers and talent leaders evaluating how credentials signal capability Teams trying to move from strategy discussions to practical implementation About the guest: Pam Young Brown is a product strategy consultant working at the intersection of skills assessment, credentialing, and workforce development. She was previously the product leader for the certification program at Amazon Web Services and director of product management at the Graduate Management Admission Council. At AWS, Pam revamped the AWS Certification portfolio, expanding into AI certifications, accelerating time to market, and introducing new microcredentials to meet the evolving needs of tech learners. At GMAC, she led the digital transformation of the test prep product portfolio, forging new partnerships and launching digital learning offerings to support candidates preparing for graduate management education. With over a decade of experience shaping credentialing products at two of the most recognized names in assessment, Pam brings a practitioner's perspective on where the industry is headed and what it takes to build credentials that are meaningful and future-ready.

July 23, 202633 min

AI and the New Challenges Facing Educational Testing with UMass Amherst’s Stephen Sireci

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP speaks with Stephen G. Sireci, Ph.D., Distinguished Professor and Executive Director of the Center for Educational Assessment at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, about AI and the new challenges facing educational testing. Drawing on his work in psychometrics, validity, fairness, educational measurement, and test development, Stephen explores how AI is reshaping what assessment professionals can do, and what they must continue to scrutinize carefully. As generative AI becomes part of test development, scoring, translation, accessibility, reporting, and candidate preparation, this conversation examines what should change and what must remain foundational. Stephen discusses how assessment can better support learning, why AI outputs still require human interrogation, and what personalization means for long-standing ideas of standardization. He also explores validity evidence in AI-supported workflows, cultural and linguistic fairness, micro-credentials, and why validity research remains essential to the future of the testing profession. What you’ll learn: How AI is expanding what assessment professionals can do across the testing lifecycle Why assessments are increasingly being used to support learning, not only measure it What personalized assessment models could mean for validity, fairness, and traditional ideas of standardization Why AI outputs need to be interrogated, evaluated, and supported by evidence How AI may affect test development, scoring, alignment, translation, and accessibility What candidate use of AI means for defining the construct being assessed Where cultural and linguistic context matters when applying AI in assessment Why validity research remains central as testing programs adopt new technologies Who should listen: Educational testing and assessment leaders evaluating AI-enabled change Psychometricians and measurement professionals focused on validity and fairness Test developers exploring AI-supported item development, scoring, or alignment Credentialing and certification leaders considering AI’s impact on workforce skills Language assessment and multilingual testing professionals Researchers and graduate students working in educational measurement Organizations balancing innovation, defensibility, and public trust in testing About the guest: Stephen G. Sireci, Ph.D. is Distinguished Professor and Executive Director of the Center for Educational Assessment in the College of Education, University of Massachusetts Amherst. He earned his Ph.D. in psychometrics from Fordham University and his master and bachelor degrees in psychology from Loyola College Maryland. Before UMass, he was Senior Psychometrician at GED Testing Service, Psychometrician for the CPA Exam and Research Supervisor of Testing for the Newark NJ Board of Education. He is known for his research in validity and fairness of educational tests, and for innovations in test development. He currently serves/has served on several advisory boards including the National Board of Professional Teaching Standards, Duolingo English Test, and technical advisory committees for Florida, Maryland, New Hampshire, New York, Montana, Puerto Rico, and Texas. He is a Fellow of American Educational Research Association and of Division 5 of American Psychological Association, and a lifetime member of the National Academy of Education. He is a past President of International Test Commission, Northeastern Educational Research Association, and National Council on Measurement in Education. His UMass honors include School of Education’s Outstanding Teacher Award, Conti Faculty Fellowship, Public Engagement Fellowship, Outstanding Accomplishments in Research and Creative Activity Award, and the Chancellor’s Medal. He also received the Messick Memorial Lecture Award from Educational Testing Service/International Language Testing Association.

July 9, 202638 min

Global Learning, AI, and the Future of Workforce Readiness with Maria Spies of HolonIQ and QS

In this episode of Tried and Tested, host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP , speaks with Maria Spies, Co-Founder of HolonIQ and Chief Innovation Officer at QS, about global learning, AI, and the future of workforce readiness. Drawing on more than 25 years in post-secondary education, workforce learning, and education technology, Maria explores how demographic change, technology, and shifting workforce needs are reshaping the way learners build skills and how organizations recognize them. As governments, employers, and education providers respond to rapid change, Maria explains why assessment and credentialing leaders need to think beyond traditional models of learning and proof. The conversation covers micro-credentials, alternative pathways, AI literacy, learning analytics, embedded learning in the flow of work, English language learning for global mobility, and why trusted evidence of skills will become increasingly important across the lifelong learning ecosystem. What you’ll learn: How global education and workforce trends are reshaping assessment and credentialing Why demographic shifts are creating different learning and skills needs across regions What is driving demand for micro-credentials, short courses, and alternative pathways Why proof of skills is becoming more important, and more complex, for learners and employers How technology and data can help make learning more observable without losing sight of design and trust What embedded learning in the flow of work could mean for future assessment models Why English language learning is a useful signal for broader workforce learning trends How leaders can focus innovation by building from their organization’s existing strengths Who should listen: Assessment and credentialing leaders planning for workforce change Education and training organizations building flexible learning pathways Workforce development leaders focused on upskilling and lifelong learning Employers and talent leaders thinking about proof of skills and workforce readiness Edtech, learning science, and product teams designing digital learning experiences Language assessment and English learning professionals tracking global mobility trends Organizations exploring how AI, data, and credentials can support trusted skill recognition

June 25, 202643 min

From Point-in-Time Testing to Continuous Certification: Insights with NBCRNA’s Tim Muckle

In this episode of Tried and Tested , host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP , speaks with Tim Muckle, PhD, ICE-CCP, Chief Assessment Officer at the National Board of Certification and Recertification for Nurse Anesthetists, about longitudinal assessment and the future of continued professional certification. Drawing on his background in mathematics, psychometrics, healthcare certification, and assessment leadership, Tim explains how NBCRNA is rethinking recertification in a way that supports patient safety, lifelong learning, and trust with certificants. As certification programs look for models that are more continuous, flexible, and relevant, Tim shares how NBCRNA moved from a traditional point-in-time assessment toward the MAC Check, a longitudinal assessment model built around smaller quarterly question sets, immediate feedback, spaced repetition, and ongoing evidence of competence. The conversation also explores stakeholder engagement, change management, the balance between rigor and accessibility, how AI may influence clinical practice and assessment, and why mission alignment is essential when changing maintenance of certification programs. What you’ll learn: How longitudinal assessment differs from traditional point-in-time testing Why continuous certification can better support lifelong learning and professional growth How smaller, periodic question sets can reduce burden while still accumulating evidence of competence What immediate feedback, spaced repetition, and related retake questions add to the assessment experience Why psychometric defensibility alone is not enough to build stakeholder trust How NBCRNA used research, communication, and certificant feedback to support program change Where AI, evolving clinical practice, and expectations for relevance may shape future certification models Why assessment leaders should start with mission before redesigning recertification or maintenance programs Who should listen: Certification and recertification leaders exploring longitudinal assessment Assessment and credentialing professionals responsible for maintenance of certification programs Psychometricians and test developers balancing rigor, feedback, and learner support Licensure and healthcare certification organizations focused on public safety and continuing competence Program owners managing stakeholder trust, communication, and change Organizations rethinking how certification can better support lifelong professional learning About the guest: Dr. Muckle is the Chief Assessment Officer with the National Board of Certification and Recertification for Nurse Anesthetists (NBCRNA), based in Chicago, IL. In his career, Dr. Muckle has been responsible for overseeing the test development and psychometric quality of a variety of credentialing examinations. His work has included the development of innovative assessment formats (such as longitudinal assessment), consultation and steering of testing policy and strategy, and spearheading an assessment-focused research agenda. He brings 25+ years of experience in certification, test development and research to his present role. Tim has published numerous articles in testing-related scientific journals and publications and has been a regular presenter at meetings of the Association of Test Publishers (ATP), and the Institute for Credentialing Excellence, among others. Among his skills and qualifications are: strategic thinking and planning, organizational leadership, statistical analysis, research and publications, team building, innovative assessment formats, and volunteer service to the credentialing industry.

June 11, 202636 min

What AI Changes About Assessment Evidence: Insights with Khan Academy’s Kristen DiCerbo

In this episode of Tried and Tested , host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP , speaks with Dr. Kristen DiCerbo, Chief Learning Officer at Khan Academy and one of Time’s top 100 people influencing the future of AI in 2024. Drawing on her background in school psychology, learning science, edtech, and assessment design, Kristen explores how AI is changing what assessment professionals can observe, interpret, and use as evidence of what learners know and can do. As assessment programs look for more authentic ways to measure real-world skills, Kristen explains why better tasks are only part of the equation. The conversation covers task models versus evidence models, the importance of closing the inferential distance, lessons from simulation and game-based assessment, Khan Academy’s “Explain Your Thinking” work, and why new measurement approaches should often begin in lower-stakes formative environments before moving into higher-stakes use. What you’ll learn: How AI can surface evidence of learner thinking beyond a single answer Why valid assessment starts with separating tasks from evidence What “closing the inferential distance” means for assessment design Where simulations, games, and open-ended tasks can create noise instead of signal Why new AI measurement approaches should start in low-stakes settings How to balance innovation with structure, validity, and defensibility What multimodal AI and on-device models could mean for future assessment Who should listen: Assessment and credentialing leaders exploring AI Psychometricians and test developers Certification and licensure program owners Edtech and learning science teams Product leaders building digital assessment experiences Educators working with formative or performance-based assessment About the guest: Dr. Kristen DiCerbo is the Chief Learning Officer at Khan Academy, where she leads the content, assessment, design, product management, and community support teams. Time magazine named her one of the top 100 people influencing the future of AI in 2024. Dr. DiCerbo’s career has focused on embedding insights from education research into digital learning experiences. Prior to her role at Khan Academy, she was Vice-President of Learning Research and Design at Pearson, served as a research scientist supporting the Cisco Networking Academies, and worked as a school psychologist. Kristen has a Ph.D. in Educational Psychology from Arizona State University.

May 28, 202637 min

Test Security, Agentic AI, and the Future of Assessment with Paul Muir from risr/

As assessment programs confront increasingly sophisticated fraud and rapid advances in Artificial Intelligence, protecting trust and integrity has never been more complex. In this episode of Tried and Tested , host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD, ICE-CCP sits down with Paul Muir, Chief Customer Officer at risr/ and Board Chair of the Association of Test Publishers, for a candid conversation recorded live at the ATP Innovations in Testing Conference. With more than 25 years in the assessment industry, Paul shares a front‑line perspective on test security, the rise of agentic AI, and the evolving role of industry collaboration. Together, they explore how assessment leaders can move from reactive security measures to more strategic, forward‑looking approaches, and how ATP is helping guide the community through a period of rapid technological change. What you’ll learn: How the test security threat landscape is evolving, including organized cheating, content harvesting, and increasingly sophisticated fraud techniques Where assessment and credentialing programs remain most vulnerable today, and why keeping pace with fraud is such a challenge What agentic AI means in the context of assessment, and how more autonomous systems introduce both new risks and new opportunities How AI can be used proactively to strengthen test security rather than simply reacting to emerging threats How Paul’s dual perspective as a technology leader and ATP Board Chair informs his view of where assessment is headed The role ATP plays in helping the industry navigate innovation, security, and trust during periods of rapid change Why collaboration and community engagement are critical to protecting the integrity of assessment programs Who should listen: Assessment and credentialing leaders responsible for program integrity Test security, compliance, and risk professionals Education and assessment technology providers Organizations exploring or deploying AI in assessment programs ATP members and professionals engaged in the broader assessment community About the guest: Paul Muir serves as the Chief Customer Officer at risr/ and currently holds the position of Board Chair for the Association of Test Publishers (ATP). With over 25 years of experience in the assessment sector, Paul is an experienced leader and active volunteer, specialising in areas such as test security, assessment reform, technology-enabled assessment, and Artificial Intelligence. Since joining risr/ in 2024, Paul, who is based in the UK, has been responsible for driving thought leadership, developing strategic partnerships, and fostering engagement across the industry, community, and customer base.

May 14, 202635 min

Serious Games and Authentic Assessment with Jenn McNamara from BreakAway Games

In this episode of Tried and Tested , host Isabelle Gonthier, PhD,- ICE CCP, Chief Assessment Officer at PSI and ETS, sits down with Jenn McNamara, Vice President of Strategic Products and Partnerships at BreakAway Games. Recorded live at the ATP Conference, the conversation explores how serious games are being used to support authentic, performance based assessment across defense, healthcare, and professional credentialing programs. Jenn shares how game based environments can capture real world decision making, reduce traditional test effects, and provide richer evidence of readiness than item based assessments alone. The discussion also covers the role of AI in game design and assessment delivery, the importance of accessibility by design, and what emerging innovation trends signal about the future of assessment. What you’ll learn: How “serious games” are defined and how they differ from surface level gamification Why authenticity, particularly cognitive fidelity, matters more than visual realism in assessment design What immersive, strategy based environments can reveal about real world decision making, stress, and readiness How independent research and validation help make game based assessment credible and defensible in high stakes contexts Where serious games are most effective in assessment programs, and where assessment leaders should be cautious How AI is influencing the future of immersive assessment, including adaptive scenarios and content variation, while maintaining rigor and fairness Who should listen: Credentialing and certification leaders exploring authentic or performance based assessment approaches Assessment professionals seeking new ways to evaluate decision making, judgment, and applied skills Psychometricians and assessment designers interested in emerging item types and validation models Program owners responsible for accessibility, candidate experience, and exam integrity Testing and education technology professionals tracking the role of serious games and AI in assessment About the Guest: Jenn McNamara is Vice President of Strategic Products and Partnerships at BreakAway Games, focused on delivering immersive solutions for education, assessment, and performance support. With over 25 years of experience in cognitive psychology, serious games, and AI-driven systems research and development, Jenn is a recognized leader and trusted partner raising the standard of advanced, technology-driven learning and assessment for defense, healthcare, and corporate sectors. Jenn’s pioneering design and development approaches set the accessibility standard for serious games. She speaks frequently at conferences including I/ITSEC, ATP Innovations in Testing, Serious Play, and Games for Change. In volunteer support of the industry, Jenn also directs the nonprofit Serious Games Showcase & Challenge and serves in leadership roles with the NDIA Human Systems Conference, Serious Play Conference, and ATP Innovations in Testing Conference.

April 30, 202636 min

Libby Rodney from The Harris Poll on the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report: Adaptability, Credentials & Opportunity

This is our 50th episode of Tried & Tested and we’re marking the milestone with a conversation about what may be one of the biggest questions facing the workforce right now: how do people prove what they can do as change accelerates? Host Isabelle Gonthier welcomes Libby Rodney, Chief Strategy Officer at The Harris Poll, to unpack what “proof” looks like in today’s disrupted environment and why credentials are increasingly tied to confidence, mobility, and opportunity. Drawing on The Harris Poll research behind the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report , Libby Rodney explains how leaders can move beyond noisy narratives and toward signals that actually matter, especially as workers face rapid disruption, shifting skill demands, and rising pressure to demonstrate adaptability. Together, they explore the widening gap between interest and access, the need for clearer employer signals about what’s valued, and why the future of credentialing depends on trust, alignment, and measurable evidence, not just storytelling. What you’ll learn: What “proof of skills” really means in a labor market shaped by constant disruption and why workers are seeking evidence they can carry across roles and industries. How the 2026 ETS Human Progress Report was designed, including the role of benchmarking and how the focus evolved toward adaptability as a cornerstone theme. Why credentials are rising in importance right now, including the connection between workplace anxiety and the need for verifiable evidence of capability. What’s driving the demand vs. access gap (high interest, lower access), and the practical barriers that keep people from pursuing credentials. Why employer clarity is the unlock: what workers need employers to specify about which credentials matter, and why ambiguity discourages investment before cost even enters the picture. How AI is reshaping credential expectations, including why many workers want formal certification to verify AI skills, and why “using AI” isn’t the same as using it well. Who should listen: Credentialing, certification, and assessment leaders designing programs that must earn trust and prove value. Employers, HR, and workforce strategy teams deciding which skills and credentials matter most. Education and training leaders working to close the gap between learning pathways and real-world opportunity. About the guest: A scenario planner, cultural strategist, and navigation expert, Libby Rodney serves as Chief Strategy Officer at The Harris Poll where she helps Fortune 100 executives decode uncertainty and navigate transformational change. Creator of “The Next Big Think!” substack and co-host of “So Get This” podcast (new on Bubbler/iHeart Radio), her cultural intelligence framework has predicted major shifts including “quiet vacationing,” FOBO (fear of being obsolete), and the “lottery over logic economy.” Libby has commanded global stages at Davos, Cannes Lions, SXSW, Forbes CMO summit, Ad Week, and CES, establishing her as the go-to cultural decoder for organizations seeking to see around corners. Libby’s insights have been featured across major media outlets where she has become known for revealing not just what’s trending, but what companies must pay attention to in the next 18 months.