The Fifth Court

Hosted by Peter Leonard BL Mark Tottenham BL

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170

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Nov 2026

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About the show

This is no ordinary courtroom, this is Ireland's legal podcast, presented by the multi-award winning team of Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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November 9, 202654 min

E158: Ronan McGreevy — The Secret in Seán Lemass's Past That History Missed

AT 16, SEÁN LEMASS ACCIDENTALLY SHOT HIS BABY BROTHER. WHY DID FIVE OR SIX BIOGRAPHIES MISS IT? RONAN MCGREEVY ON THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF IRELAND'S MOST CONSEQUENTIAL TAOISEACH. What did Seán Lemass really think? And what has history overlooked? Irish Times journalist and author Ronan McGreevy joins Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham at the Kilkenny Law Festival to discuss Seán Lemass: The Lost Memoir — including a shocking discovery about Lemass's teenage years, his role in the revolutionary period, Bloody Sunday, his relationship with de Valera and the economic transformation of Ireland. Plus, three legal cases: a disputed family guarantee, the evidence of a protected witness who admitted perjury, and the High Court's approach to capacity and vulnerability. THE FIFTH COURT — No Ordinary Courtroom, presented by Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham. The legal cases section of this episode is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors, of Dún Laoghaire, Dublin — solicitors and collaborative practitioners specialising in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. CHAPTERS 00:00 Welcome to The Fifth Court 02:13 The legal cases: family guarantees, protected witnesses and capacity 05:20 Ronan McGreevy at the Kilkenny Law Festival 06:09 Ronan's books and the Seán Lemass story 07:14 The lost memoir: 23 interviews and 22 hours of recordings 10:51 Seán Lemass's early life on Capel Street 12:50 The extraordinary discovery about Lemass's baby brother 16:25 Lemass and the 1916 Rising 18:07 Bloody Sunday: did Lemass kill Geoffrey Bagley? 20:11 The Treaty and the Civil War 21:41 The killing of Lemass's brother Noel 24:12 The extraordinary libel case and the Hospital Sweepstakes 25:59 Lemass and de Valera: a political partnership 28:44 Building Irish industry 34:56 The Lemass years and Ireland's economic crisis 37:18 Opening Ireland to foreign investment 39:20 Ireland, Europe and the EEC 42:44 Lemass reaches out to Northern Ireland 46:16 What Lemass thought of John F. Kennedy 47:56 Why Lemass left office 49:15 Charles Haughey: the son-in-law question 51:59 The private life of Seán Lemass 53:26 Closing the interview ABOUT THE GUEST Ronan McGreevy is a journalist with The Irish Times and an author and editor of several books on Irish history. His books include Wherever the Firing Line Extends: Ireland and the Western Front , Great Hatred: The Assassination of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson and Seán Lemass: The Lost Memoir . ABOUT THE FIFTH COURT The Fifth Court explores legal affairs, landmark cases, the people behind the law and the stories that shape Ireland. Presented by Peter Leonard, barrister and mediator, and Mark Tottenham, barrister and trust and estate practitioner. Recorded at the Kilkenny Law Festival. Listen, follow and share The Fifth Court. If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

November 6, 20261 min

A private invitation to a special Fifth Court recording

This is a SPECIAL PRIVATE INVITATION to our listeners to join us at a recording in the dlr LexIcon Library Haigh Terrace, Moran Park, Dún Laoghaire, County Dublin. Eircode : A96 H283 on the 26th November, 2026. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

November 3, 202655 min

E157 — All You Need Is Law: The Beatles’ Legal Battles with Jason Carty

The Beatles changed music. Their lawyers had plenty to do afterwards. Jason Carty, co-host of the acclaimed Beatles podcast Nothing Is Real , joins Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL for a special edition of The Fifth Court, recorded live at Electric Picnic . From Come Together and Chuck Berry to My Sweet Lord and subconscious copying, Jason explores the legal disputes behind some of the most familiar songs ever recorded. Along the way: How the Come Together dispute led to a settlement, missing recordings and a mail-order John Lennon album. Why Paul McCartney’s approach to legal advice gave him greater freedom to create. Who gets a songwriting credit — and who gets left out. George Harrison, Ringo Starr and a recording that did not go down particularly well. Allen Klein’s extraordinary role in the My Sweet Lord litigation. How the Rutles’ Beatles parodies acquired Lennon–McCartney songwriting credits. Neil Innes, Oasis and a rather satisfying publishing twist. Also on this episode: three cases from Decisis.ie The People v JL: Could an accused put a prepared statement denying an offence before the jury without facing cross-examination? Corrigan v Redmond: Does holding a power of attorney give a non-lawyer the right to represent someone in court? O’Leary, a minor, v Airtastic Cork Limited: CCTV contradicted the account of a trampoline injury, and the claim failed. The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire. charltons.ie Jason’s podcast: nothingisrealpod.com Follow The Fifth Court on your podcast app — and share this episode with the Beatles fan who thinks they have heard every story. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

October 23, 202651 min

Episode 156: Paul Howard — A united Ireland. But whose flag, whose anthem, whose rules?

E156 | Paul Howard: A united Ireland. But whose flag, whose anthem, whose rules? Would you vote for a united Ireland if it meant changing the flag? The national anthem? The Constitution? And should we settle those questions before asking people to vote? On Episode 156 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL welcome Paul Howard, creator of Ross O’Carroll-Kelly, to discuss his new satirical novel, A Nation Once Again. Its premise: a fictional government department has been preparing for Irish unity since 1958. Turning the aspiration into an actual plan proves rather more complicated. Paul describes himself as agnostic on reunification and open to persuasion. He explains why the argument needs to move beyond green versus orange, why compromise may leave everyone slightly dissatisfied, and why a premature border poll could set the project back for a generation. Along the way: • The solicitor’s letter over a 50-word rugby report that helped inspire Ross O’Carroll-Kelly’s lawyer. • Why comedy can open up conversations that serious political debate struggles to reach. • Flags, anthems, policing and the practicalities of bringing two systems together. • Why Ireland’s Call might offer an unlikely lesson in compromise. • Paul’s prediction of a border poll within ten years—and Mark’s reasons for disagreeing. The Decisis case review Peter and Mark also discuss three Irish decisions from Decisis.ie: • Merck Serono S.A. v The Controller of Intellectual Property: an unsuccessful appeal concerning a supplementary protection certificate for a medicine. • Minister for Justice v Curtin: surrender to the UK, errors in a warrant and objections concerning prison conditions. • Kerr v Moran: joint tenancy, intended ownership arrangements and the refusal to dismiss a solicitors’ negligence claim as statute-barred. The case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, whose services include family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. Paul’s recommendations: • Death in the City of Light — David King. • I, Fatty — Jerry Stahl. • Intermission — his favourite comfort film, accompanied by a wonderful story about meeting Colm Meaney. Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL. Follow The Fifth Court and share this episode with someone who enjoys a good argument. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

October 16, 202645 min

E155 – THE END OF THE BILLABLE HOUR? Larry Fenelon on AI, legal jobs and reinventing the law firm

THE BILLABLE HOUR IS UNDER ATTACK. AND AI COULD CHANGE THE LEGAL PROFESSION FOREVER. What happens when one of Ireland's most innovative solicitors decides to throw out the traditional rulebook? Larry Fenelon SC, founder of Fenecas Law and previously of Leman Solicitors, joins Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL on Episode 155 of The Fifth Court. He's built a litigation-only firm that doesn't record billable hours, embraces artificial intelligence and believes the Irish legal profession needs to move much faster. And his numbers are extraordinary. Five hours of document preparation reduced to five minutes. Ten employees doing work he believes might otherwise require 20–22 people. Fixed-fee arrangements instead of the traditional six-minute billing clock. Larry also reveals: Why increasing his previous law firm from 25 to 55 people didn't necessarily increase profits. How Leman Solicitors became part of international law firm Ogier. Why AI is forcing lawyers to rethink how they charge clients. Why paper-based court processes are increasingly unsustainable. Why Ireland could become a major international arbitration centre, competing with London, Paris, Vienna and Stockholm. Why he believes Ireland's legal professionals can compete with the best in the world. There's also a remarkable personal story, from working in his family's meat business and studying at the University of Limerick to building, merging and then starting a law firm all over again. Plus: the Decisis Law Reports case review Peter and Mark examine three important decisions: T.O. v HSE — a child's access to weight-loss medication and a challenge to the HSE's refusal to fund treatment. L.M. v N.O.M. — children wrongfully retained in Ireland following a holiday visit, and their return to South Africa under the Hague Convention. The People v C.U. — admissions made by a 17-year-old during Garda questioning and whether those admissions were admissible in evidence. The Decisis case-law review is proudly sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners , George's Street, Dún Laoghaire, specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL. The Fifth Court. No Ordinary Courtroom. Follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

August 11, 202645 min

E109 The Fifth Court - retired High Court judge, Bernard Barton RIP

As the multitude of tributes have shown Bernard was not only a highly respected Judge and member of the Law Library, but was an absolute gentleman, known for his kindness, warmth, and great sense of fun. This we experienced in abundance when he joined us as a guest on the The Fifth Court podcast. In what was one of our most popular episodes, Bernard’s charm and infectious enthusiasm for law and life shone through. Accordingly , we are re-releasing this episode in tribute to this wonderful man. Mark Tottenham Peter Leonard Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 23, 202637 min

E154 The Fifth Court: John Freeman BL — Central Bank Power, Personal Accountability and Fair Procedures

Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by John Freeman BL , author of The Central Bank Acts: A Commentary . John explains the modern role of the Central Bank of Ireland and how financial regulation has changed since the banking crisis. The discussion examines the increased focus on individual accountability within financial institutions, including how responsibility is assigned to particular executives and decision-makers. They also consider: The Central Bank’s investigative and enforcement powers Personal responsibility for regulatory failures Fines, suspensions and exclusion from the financial services industry The effect of the Zalewski judgment on regulatory hearings Fair procedures when the regulator investigates and adjudicates Appeals to the Irish Financial Services Appeals Tribunal and the High Court The independence of the Central Bank The relationship between the Central Bank of Ireland and the European Central Bank Why the Central Bank Acts have become so difficult to navigate John also discusses the work involved in writing a major legal commentary, the growing use of Irish within the legal profession and his interest in French revolutionary legal history. Before the interview, Peter and Mark review three recent decisions from Decisis.ie : An unlawful repossession of a family home resulting in an award of €20,000 in damages Planning permission quashed because inadequate provision had been made for children’s play facilities A constitutional challenge concerning temporary release and a mandatory minimum sentence for serious drug offences The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire , specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL . Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 14, 202646 min

E153 The Fifth Court - Who Really Built Ireland's Legal System? Daire Hogan on Judges Who Shaped Irish History

For more than a century, Ireland's judges shaped the country's politics, business, land ownership and legal system. But who were they? On Episode 153 of The Fifth Court , Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by legal historian Daire Hogan , former McCann FitzGerald partner, former President of the Irish Legal History Society and author of the remarkable new book The Judges of Ireland 1866–1921 . It's a fascinating conversation about Victorian Ireland, judicial power, Westminster politics, the Four Courts, Home Rule, the birth of the modern legal system and some extraordinary judicial personalities whose influence is still felt today. Along the way they discuss: • why 1877 completely changed Irish courts • the astonishing political influence behind judicial appointments • why some judges nearly sailed on the Titanic • how Irish judges were viewed in London • the origins of today's High Court and Court of Appeal • what legal history tells us about modern Ireland Before Daire Hogan joins Peter and Mark, Mark reviews three important recent decisions from Decisis , kindly brought to listeners with the support of Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners , specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. The featured cases include: Adoption without parental consent Security for costs Legal professional privilege and shareholder rights Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 1, 202655 min

E152 The Fifth Court - Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder, on trust, AI and why the internet still needs rules

Episode 152 of The Fifth Court features a very special guest: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia Interviewed by Mark Tottenham BL at Dalkey Book Festival. This is not just a tech-founder interview. It is a fascinating conversation about law, trust, neutrality, rules, evidence, platform responsibility, AI hallucinations, volunteer communities, public knowledge and why Wikipedia has survived while much of the internet has become angrier, noisier and less trusted. Jimmy explains why Wikipedia’s neutral point of view matters, why “assume good faith” is more practical than naïve, how Wikipedia deals with vandalism, why AI can invent very convincing false sources, why WikiNews did not work, and why Wikipedia avoided the advertising model that turned so much of the web into clickbait. Jimmy's cultural recommendation, a book by the late author Ray Bradbury, 'Something Wicked this Way Comes'. Before the interview, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL discuss three recent cases from the Decisis Casebook, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners: the Supreme Court on “no foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements; a drink-driving blood-specimen chain-of-custody case; and a murder conviction quashed because of an unbalanced judicial charge to the jury. 00:00 – Intro: Episode 152 01:47 – Decisis Casebook sponsor: Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners 02:00 – “No foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements 03:29 – Drink-driving conviction and blood-specimen chain of custody 04:34 – Murder conviction quashed over judicial charge to jury 06:03 – Jimmy Wales interview begins 06:43 – Why Wikipedia was hard to compete with 07:58 – Neutral point of view and controversial topics 09:49 – How Wikipedia’s rules developed 11:40 – Volunteer communities and optimism about people 15:12 – Why a wiki works for an encyclopedia, but maybe not for poetry 17:03 – Why Wikipedia is vandal-proof 18:30 – Jimmy Wales: “Queen Elizabeth II, not Henry VIII” 20:07 – Arbitration committees and Wikipedia governance 21:24 – Wikipedia in 150–300 languages 23:31 – What workplaces can learn from volunteers 29:06 – Audrey Tang, Taiwan and digital consensus 32:10 – “Assume good faith” 34:25 – ChatGPT, fake ISBNs and made-up legal cases 37:17 – Law enforcement and good faith 39:03 – Why WikiNews did not really work 44:12 – Constitutional change and institutional deadlock 49:37 – Platforms, publishers and free speech 50:25 – Why Wikipedia did not become an ad machine 53:04 – Jimmy Wales’ book recommendation: Something Wicked This Way Comes 54:33 – Outro Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

June 23, 202635 min

E151 The Fifth Court - Peter Charleton Part 2: what judges really worry about

In Part 2 of our extended interview with retired Supreme Court judge Mr Justice Peter Charleton, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL continue a remarkable conversation about life at the Bar, life on the Bench, and life after the Supreme Court. Peter Charleton speaks about the reality of appearing in high-profile criminal cases, the discipline of addressing juries, why a good advocate must be able to hold attention, and why, in court, “your job is basically to stay on the horse”. He discusses the emotional weight of criminal work, the dangers of lawyers mistaking themselves for victims, the Morris Tribunal, the call to the High Court, the pressure of judgment writing, and the move from sitting alone in the High Court to deciding cases with colleagues in the Supreme Court. There is also a fascinating discussion on the length of modern judgments, why digital searches are different from physical searches, how Supreme Court judges deal with disagreement, and whether advocacy still matters in an age of written submissions. And, in a lovely final turn, Peter Charleton reflects on retirement, family, music, film, War and Peace, Clint Eastwood, and why music, in his view, is a higher form of reasoning than law. Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook, with thanks to the sponsor of the Decisis casebook discussion, Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, who specialise in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. LSRA v O’Brien A solicitor was prohibited from practising in his own right for 10 years following serious misconduct and repeated non-compliance with undertakings. The High Court stressed that its role in reviewing LSRA determinations is not a rubber-stamping exercise. LSRA v Salabi An overseas lawyer seeking to practise in Ireland could not rely on Belgian professional indemnity cover. The court held that the foreign cover did not meet the Irish regulatory requirements. Foreign Births Register citizenship challenge A challenge to the requirement that foreign-born children be registered on the Foreign Births Register before acquiring Irish citizenship was rejected, with the court finding no particular injustice in the requirement. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Part 2 preview 00:48 Decisis casebook discussion, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners 03:49 Peter Charleton interview resumes 04:31 High-profile criminal cases and staying on the horse 05:15 Addressing juries and holding attention 07:13 Worrying about cases and professional regret 08:08 Criminal work, vicarious trauma and perspective 09:03 The Morris Tribunal and Donegal 10:37 The call to the High Court 11:43 Why judging was not easier than being a barrister 13:48 How to write a judgment 15:46 Are modern judgments too long? 18:07 Digital searches and privacy 19:52 Moving from the High Court to the Supreme Court 20:22 Keeping an open mind on appeal 21:30 Overturning colleagues and why it is not personal 23:45 Irish courts, US courts and the politics of judging 26:26 Is great advocacy dead? 28:38 Retirement from the Supreme Court 30:41 Life after the Bench 31:22 Music, law and philosophy 32:47 Film and book recommendations 34:45 Closing thanks Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.