The Fifth Court

Hosted by Peter Leonard BL Mark Tottenham BL

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166

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Aug 2026

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About the show

This is no ordinary courtroom, this is Ireland's legal podcast, presented by the multi-award winning team of Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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October 16, 202645 min

E155 – THE END OF THE BILLABLE HOUR? Larry Fenelon on AI, legal jobs and reinventing the law firm

THE BILLABLE HOUR IS UNDER ATTACK. AND AI COULD CHANGE THE LEGAL PROFESSION FOREVER. What happens when one of Ireland's most innovative solicitors decides to throw out the traditional rulebook? Larry Fenelon SC, founder of Fenecas Law and previously of Leman Solicitors, joins Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL on Episode 155 of The Fifth Court. He's built a litigation-only firm that doesn't record billable hours, embraces artificial intelligence and believes the Irish legal profession needs to move much faster. And his numbers are extraordinary. Five hours of document preparation reduced to five minutes. Ten employees doing work he believes might otherwise require 20–22 people. Fixed-fee arrangements instead of the traditional six-minute billing clock. Larry also reveals: Why increasing his previous law firm from 25 to 55 people didn't necessarily increase profits. How Leman Solicitors became part of international law firm Ogier. Why AI is forcing lawyers to rethink how they charge clients. Why paper-based court processes are increasingly unsustainable. Why Ireland could become a major international arbitration centre, competing with London, Paris, Vienna and Stockholm. Why he believes Ireland's legal professionals can compete with the best in the world. There's also a remarkable personal story, from working in his family's meat business and studying at the University of Limerick to building, merging and then starting a law firm all over again. Plus: the Decisis Law Reports case review Peter and Mark examine three important decisions: T.O. v HSE — a child's access to weight-loss medication and a challenge to the HSE's refusal to fund treatment. L.M. v N.O.M. — children wrongfully retained in Ireland following a holiday visit, and their return to South Africa under the Hague Convention. The People v C.U. — admissions made by a 17-year-old during Garda questioning and whether those admissions were admissible in evidence. The Decisis case-law review is proudly sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners , George's Street, Dún Laoghaire, specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL. The Fifth Court. No Ordinary Courtroom. Follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

August 11, 202645 min

E109 The Fifth Court - retired High Court judge, Bernard Barton RIP

As the multitude of tributes have shown Bernard was not only a highly respected Judge and member of the Law Library, but was an absolute gentleman, known for his kindness, warmth, and great sense of fun. This we experienced in abundance when he joined us as a guest on the The Fifth Court podcast. In what was one of our most popular episodes, Bernard’s charm and infectious enthusiasm for law and life shone through. Accordingly , we are re-releasing this episode in tribute to this wonderful man. Mark Tottenham Peter Leonard Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 23, 202637 min

E154 The Fifth Court: John Freeman BL — Central Bank Power, Personal Accountability and Fair Procedures

Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by John Freeman BL , author of The Central Bank Acts: A Commentary . John explains the modern role of the Central Bank of Ireland and how financial regulation has changed since the banking crisis. The discussion examines the increased focus on individual accountability within financial institutions, including how responsibility is assigned to particular executives and decision-makers. They also consider: The Central Bank’s investigative and enforcement powers Personal responsibility for regulatory failures Fines, suspensions and exclusion from the financial services industry The effect of the Zalewski judgment on regulatory hearings Fair procedures when the regulator investigates and adjudicates Appeals to the Irish Financial Services Appeals Tribunal and the High Court The independence of the Central Bank The relationship between the Central Bank of Ireland and the European Central Bank Why the Central Bank Acts have become so difficult to navigate John also discusses the work involved in writing a major legal commentary, the growing use of Irish within the legal profession and his interest in French revolutionary legal history. Before the interview, Peter and Mark review three recent decisions from Decisis.ie : An unlawful repossession of a family home resulting in an award of €20,000 in damages Planning permission quashed because inadequate provision had been made for children’s play facilities A constitutional challenge concerning temporary release and a mandatory minimum sentence for serious drug offences The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire , specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. Presented by Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL . Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 14, 202646 min

E153 The Fifth Court - Who Really Built Ireland's Legal System? Daire Hogan on Judges Who Shaped Irish History

For more than a century, Ireland's judges shaped the country's politics, business, land ownership and legal system. But who were they? On Episode 153 of The Fifth Court , Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by legal historian Daire Hogan , former McCann FitzGerald partner, former President of the Irish Legal History Society and author of the remarkable new book The Judges of Ireland 1866–1921 . It's a fascinating conversation about Victorian Ireland, judicial power, Westminster politics, the Four Courts, Home Rule, the birth of the modern legal system and some extraordinary judicial personalities whose influence is still felt today. Along the way they discuss: • why 1877 completely changed Irish courts • the astonishing political influence behind judicial appointments • why some judges nearly sailed on the Titanic • how Irish judges were viewed in London • the origins of today's High Court and Court of Appeal • what legal history tells us about modern Ireland Before Daire Hogan joins Peter and Mark, Mark reviews three important recent decisions from Decisis , kindly brought to listeners with the support of Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners , specialists in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. The featured cases include: Adoption without parental consent Security for costs Legal professional privilege and shareholder rights Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

July 1, 202655 min

E152 The Fifth Court - Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder, on trust, AI and why the internet still needs rules

Episode 152 of The Fifth Court features a very special guest: Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia Interviewed by Mark Tottenham BL at Dalkey Book Festival. This is not just a tech-founder interview. It is a fascinating conversation about law, trust, neutrality, rules, evidence, platform responsibility, AI hallucinations, volunteer communities, public knowledge and why Wikipedia has survived while much of the internet has become angrier, noisier and less trusted. Jimmy explains why Wikipedia’s neutral point of view matters, why “assume good faith” is more practical than naïve, how Wikipedia deals with vandalism, why AI can invent very convincing false sources, why WikiNews did not work, and why Wikipedia avoided the advertising model that turned so much of the web into clickbait. Jimmy's cultural recommendation, a book by the late author Ray Bradbury, 'Something Wicked this Way Comes'. Before the interview, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL discuss three recent cases from the Decisis Casebook, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners: the Supreme Court on “no foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements; a drink-driving blood-specimen chain-of-custody case; and a murder conviction quashed because of an unbalanced judicial charge to the jury. 00:00 – Intro: Episode 152 01:47 – Decisis Casebook sponsor: Charltons Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners 02:00 – “No foal, no fee” and conditional fee arrangements 03:29 – Drink-driving conviction and blood-specimen chain of custody 04:34 – Murder conviction quashed over judicial charge to jury 06:03 – Jimmy Wales interview begins 06:43 – Why Wikipedia was hard to compete with 07:58 – Neutral point of view and controversial topics 09:49 – How Wikipedia’s rules developed 11:40 – Volunteer communities and optimism about people 15:12 – Why a wiki works for an encyclopedia, but maybe not for poetry 17:03 – Why Wikipedia is vandal-proof 18:30 – Jimmy Wales: “Queen Elizabeth II, not Henry VIII” 20:07 – Arbitration committees and Wikipedia governance 21:24 – Wikipedia in 150–300 languages 23:31 – What workplaces can learn from volunteers 29:06 – Audrey Tang, Taiwan and digital consensus 32:10 – “Assume good faith” 34:25 – ChatGPT, fake ISBNs and made-up legal cases 37:17 – Law enforcement and good faith 39:03 – Why WikiNews did not really work 44:12 – Constitutional change and institutional deadlock 49:37 – Platforms, publishers and free speech 50:25 – Why Wikipedia did not become an ad machine 53:04 – Jimmy Wales’ book recommendation: Something Wicked This Way Comes 54:33 – Outro Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

June 23, 202635 min

E151 The Fifth Court - Peter Charleton Part 2: what judges really worry about

In Part 2 of our extended interview with retired Supreme Court judge Mr Justice Peter Charleton, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL continue a remarkable conversation about life at the Bar, life on the Bench, and life after the Supreme Court. Peter Charleton speaks about the reality of appearing in high-profile criminal cases, the discipline of addressing juries, why a good advocate must be able to hold attention, and why, in court, “your job is basically to stay on the horse”. He discusses the emotional weight of criminal work, the dangers of lawyers mistaking themselves for victims, the Morris Tribunal, the call to the High Court, the pressure of judgment writing, and the move from sitting alone in the High Court to deciding cases with colleagues in the Supreme Court. There is also a fascinating discussion on the length of modern judgments, why digital searches are different from physical searches, how Supreme Court judges deal with disagreement, and whether advocacy still matters in an age of written submissions. And, in a lovely final turn, Peter Charleton reflects on retirement, family, music, film, War and Peace, Clint Eastwood, and why music, in his view, is a higher form of reasoning than law. Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook, with thanks to the sponsor of the Decisis casebook discussion, Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, who specialise in family law, civil litigation, property, wills and probate. LSRA v O’Brien A solicitor was prohibited from practising in his own right for 10 years following serious misconduct and repeated non-compliance with undertakings. The High Court stressed that its role in reviewing LSRA determinations is not a rubber-stamping exercise. LSRA v Salabi An overseas lawyer seeking to practise in Ireland could not rely on Belgian professional indemnity cover. The court held that the foreign cover did not meet the Irish regulatory requirements. Foreign Births Register citizenship challenge A challenge to the requirement that foreign-born children be registered on the Foreign Births Register before acquiring Irish citizenship was rejected, with the court finding no particular injustice in the requirement. CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction and Part 2 preview 00:48 Decisis casebook discussion, sponsored by Charltons Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners 03:49 Peter Charleton interview resumes 04:31 High-profile criminal cases and staying on the horse 05:15 Addressing juries and holding attention 07:13 Worrying about cases and professional regret 08:08 Criminal work, vicarious trauma and perspective 09:03 The Morris Tribunal and Donegal 10:37 The call to the High Court 11:43 Why judging was not easier than being a barrister 13:48 How to write a judgment 15:46 Are modern judgments too long? 18:07 Digital searches and privacy 19:52 Moving from the High Court to the Supreme Court 20:22 Keeping an open mind on appeal 21:30 Overturning colleagues and why it is not personal 23:45 Irish courts, US courts and the politics of judging 26:26 Is great advocacy dead? 28:38 Retirement from the Supreme Court 30:41 Life after the Bench 31:22 Music, law and philosophy 32:47 Film and book recommendations 34:45 Closing thanks Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

June 18, 202638 min

E150 The Fifth Court - Mr Justice Peter Charleton: law, crime, music and the nature of evil

The Fifth Court marks Episode 150 with Part 1 of a wide-ranging conversation with recently retired Supreme Court judge, Peter Charleton. To mark Episode 150 of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by Mr Justice Peter Charleton, recently retired from the Supreme Court. In Part 1 of this extended interview, he reflects on republicanism and nationalism, growing up near Seán Lemass and Theodore Kingsmill Moore, music, Trinity, the King’s Inns, devilling with Peter Sutherland, early years at the Bar, criminal law, defending accused persons, and the deeper questions of crime, morality and human nature. It is a thoughtful, personal and sometimes unexpectedly funny conversation with one of Ireland’s best-known jurists. Before the interview, Mark and Peter discuss three recent cases from the Decisis.ie casebook. The Decisis.ie case-law section is sponsored by Charlton Solicitors and Collaborative Practitioners of Dún Laoghaire. Case 1: The High Court quashed a District Court judge’s refusal to convict in speed-limit cases, holding that judges must apply the law rather than substitute their own views on whether limits are fair. Case 2: In DPP v O’Hara, the Court of Appeal upheld a murder and burglary conviction, rejecting challenges to DNA and search-warrant evidence. Case 3: In a Hague Convention child-abduction case, the court refused to return a child to New Zealand because of concerns about the mother’s depression and risk of relapse. This is Part 1 of a two-part interview. Part II will be posted next week. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

June 9, 202638 min

E149 The Fifth Court - Bridget Hourican on Frank Callanan’s Joycean masterpiece

Bloomsday Special: The secret political life of James Joyce — and Frank Callanan’s final masterpiece Was James Joyce really apolitical? For decades, many scholars claimed Ireland's greatest writer stood apart from politics. Frank Callanan disagreed. Before his untimely death, the renowned barrister, historian and Parnell scholar spent 25 years researching what became his final work: James Joyce: A Political Life . In this special Bloomsday episode of The Fifth Court, Bridget Hourican joins Peter Leonard and Mark Tottenham to discuss Frank's extraordinary final book, his lifelong fascination with Joyce, Parnell, Irish nationalism, exile, censorship and the political forces that shaped modern Ireland. The conversation also becomes a moving tribute to Frank himself — one of the most beloved and intellectually gifted members of the Law Library. Among the topics discussed: Why Frank spent 25 years researching Joyce The political meaning hidden inside Ulysses and Dubliners Joyce's obsession with Parnell Why Dublin publishers burned copies of Dubliners Joyce, censorship and Irish respectability Why Joyce left Ireland and never truly returned Frank Callanan's remarkable legal and academic career The challenge of completing a 900-page masterpiece after his death For anyone interested in law, literature, Irish history or Bloomsday, this is a fascinating conversation. Book recommendation: James Joyce: A Political Life by Frank Callanan Decisis casebook section sponsored by Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners. 1. The runaway truck case Duggan v Logan (Mr Justice Oisín Quinn) A driver was seriously injured when a truck rolled out of a filling station and into traffic with nobody behind the wheel after the driver failed to apply the handbrake. Why it matters: The High Court awarded damages of approximately €128,000 and provides a reminder that leaving a vehicle unsecured can create liability even when the driver is physically absent from the vehicle. 2. Turkish worker wins immigration rights challenge Ozek v Minister for Justice (Mr Justice Simons) A Turkish migrant worker successfully challenged the Minister's refusal to properly backdate an immigration permission. Why it matters: The Court found that EU-derived worker protections had not been correctly applied, reinforcing the importance of protecting migrant workers' rights under European law. 3. Mother and Baby Institutions Redress Scheme Kiernan (otherwise John Duncan Morris) v Minister for Children (Mr Justice Owens) A claimant challenged a decision that certain institutions were not covered by the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme. Why it matters: The Court held that the legislation should be interpreted more broadly and that the applicant was entitled to seek redress under the scheme. The decision may affect how eligibility is assessed in future claims. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

May 18, 202630 min

E148 The Fifth Court - Peter Shanley SC -Barristers Direct, legal access & barristers as entrepreneurs

Episode 148, The Fifth Court Peter Shanley SC on Barristers Direct, legal access and barristers becoming entrepreneurs Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by Peter Shanley SC, founder of Barristers Direct. Peter explains how changes under the Legal Services Regulation Act opened the door to direct access to barristers in non-contentious matters, why Barristers Direct was created, and how the service works for individuals, companies, in-house counsel and solicitors. He also talks family legal dynasty, rugby, the late Peter Shanley, direct access, AI note-taking, probate, employment law, defamation, and why solicitors may actually benefit from the service. The Decisis.ie case-law section, sponsored by Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners of George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire, covers: A suspended trade union member allowed to contest an Executive Council election A Hague Convention child-return case involving Ireland and Poland Citizenship refusals based on historic criminal convictions Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

May 8, 202645 min

E147 The Fifth Court - John O’Donnell SC on Law, Literature and Life

ON this episode of The Fifth Court, Peter Leonard BL and Mark Tottenham BL are joined by John O’Donnell SC — one of the Bar’s leading advocates… and one of Ireland’s most quietly brilliant writers. This is a conversation that moves from the Four Courts to the writing desk — and back again. We step into a different courtroom entirely — the imagination. John O’Donnell SC discusses: Winning the Francis McManus Short Story Award Writing Mr. Who — a story inspired by a real criminal case The discipline of writing daily at 6:30am Why short stories thrive in Ireland And his upcoming novel Second Skin This is law, but not as you expect it. We begin, as always, with the Decisis casebook section , sponsored by Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners, George’s Street, Dún Laoghaire , covering: 1. Teaching Council v CD A school principal steals up to €100,000… and is NOT struck off. Why? Gambling addiction, remorse, and the court’s willingness to give a second chance. 2. Pepper Finance Corporation v Ward A default judgment overturned… after SEVEN years. Solicitor misconduct, delay, and “special circumstances” collide. 3. O’Callaghan v O’Callaghan A family hotel empire tears itself apart. Misrepresentation vs arbitration — and why the court said: “Off you go… to arbitration.” Chapters 00:00 – Intro 02:00 – Decisis Sponsor: Charlton Solicitors & Collaborative Practitioners 02:15 – Case 1: Teacher theft & second chances 05:30 – Case 2: Default judgment after 7 years 08:00 – Case 3: Family hotel war & arbitration 10:30 – John O’Donnell SC interview begins 18:00 – From barrister to poet 25:00 – Writing discipline: 6:30am starts 32:00 – Mr. Who: crime, imagination, and narrative 40:00 – Law as inspiration for fiction 50:00 – Poetry reading 57:00 – Fastnet Film Festival & courtroom dramas 01:02:00 – Close Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.