The Current Podcast

Firestone Walker Brewing Company’s CMO says connected TV has made it easier to reach its sports-loving customers. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian (00:03):This week we're really excited to talk with Dustin Hinz, the Chief marketing officer of Firestone Walker Brewing the craft brewery based in California.Ilyse (00:12):Dustin has been the chief marketer at Firestone for almost six years. He's an award-winning marketer who knows how to build a culturally relevant brand.Damian (00:21):Also, he's a musician and he helped build Guitar Center into that powerhouse brand It is today. He worked there for 17 years and you can ask any guitarist about Guitar Center and its Importance. And then he was an Ernie Ball music man, which is famous for its guitar strings, which I love. I'm curious though, Ilyse, do you play the guitar?Ilyse (00:40):I wish, but Okay. Damian, we're here to talk beer and how to market it in a crowded marketplace. So let's begin. So Dustin, can you tell us a little bit about Firestone and the brand 805? It seems it really has a West Coast vibe just like me. I'm from the West coast so I can see that. I feel it.Dustin (01:04):Firestone Walker is the culmination of David Walker and Adam Firestone's love for beer. And they met back in the nineties when David fell in love with Adam's sister and there's great stories about that. And then they found they had this mutual love for beer and the central coast of California. David being an expat in British and Adam being a Californian, they founded this amazing brewery on the central coast and really focused on just a few craft beers. DBA was their first beer and then Union Jack and there was a lot of craft was sort of an early movement. And then back in 2012 they stumbled upon this idea of 8 0 5 and 8 0 5 is the area code for the big swath of the Central coast, a big piece of California all the way down to Ventura County where actually I grew up. We like to say that the goal of 8 0 5 is to be the most globally recognized, regionally available beer in the world.Ilyse (02:03):Very cool. But there are a lot of beers out there, even craft beers. What would you say is the point of differentiation? Is it the taste? Is it the West coast vibes? What would you say?Dustin (02:15):I think the biggest point of differentiation in beer is the brand position. Obviously great brand position and great marketing is not going to solve a lousy product, so you got to have amazing product and we're trying to focus on being odds of the evens and really investing in our own legend and trying to stand for something and be the alternative choice. And thankfully beer is so big and there's so much opportunity that you can carve out a pretty nice size of the pie for yourself if you want to focus on being the alternative premium choice.Damian (02:43):One of things that you just said about the importance of marketing and how marketing can drive the business seems key to this. Is there anything that you could point us to that you'd say, this was the moment where I created brand awareness above and beyond or something like that?Dustin (03:05):The first one with the traditional 8 0 5, the black can I was very lucky to inherit five and a half years ago a slogan called Properly Chill and Properly Chill sort of was the slogan for this idea that life on the central coast was a little different, right? And what we did last year and then going into this year, and I believe that this is going to come out right around this new campaign is going to drop, is this idea telling the story of our brand through the lens of our customer. We have this amazing roster of ambassadors, we call them Authentico and eight oh five Authentico and Professional surfers, motocross Riders, boxers, MMA, fighters, artists, tattoo artists, you name it, it spans the spectrum. There's over 50 of them and they kind of cover every single different customer group that we believe the brand represents and we tell the story of that brand through those consumers or through those athletes.(04:06):And then a couple other examples were what we did was Summer of Cervesa when we launched the extension of 8 0 5, the first extension after 10 years, which was a Mexican lagger themed version of 8 0 5 with a little bit of lime in it. And the idea at the time was when you were looking at the marketplace, Mexican laggers were really on the rise. Corona obviously as an incredible background. Modelo has now at this point become the number one brand in the US surpassing Bud Light and Consumers were definitely reaching for this idea of sort of an escapism beer. So when we launched the campaign with summer survey, so we realized that we had to do something to stand out and create some differentiation between 8 0 5 blonde and 8 0 5. And so the 8 0 5 cervesa campaign was the first time we ever showed the product in color. 8 0 5 has been black and white since its inception in 2012. And with 8 0 5 Cervesa was the first time we ever put the product in color in the advertising. And it was a game changer. I mean, we sales went from moderately successful to up 20% pretty consistently because we were able to create that differentiation in the idea that Cervesa was a light and refreshing product.Damian (05:24):Wow, I love that just by adding color. But it is interesting that you started out in black and white as a kind of campaign. Why black and white?Dustin (05:32):I think they realized they needed to do something different to stand out back then. And trust me, it is a conversation pretty regularly when we're working on new ideas of, there is a lot of consternation around the idea of how do we maintain the brand identity and not stray from it because we want to be timeless, not timely. So we're very, very focused on, hey, every decision we make is going to have an impact a decade from now, two decades from now. Because the greatest brands in beer are multi-generational.Ilyse (06:02):Totally. And I know we talked about this earlier because it can be really difficult to market alcohol products, especially on platforms like social media where there are age roadblocks. What are the channels that you decided to lean into for these campaigns and are there any that you're experimenting with now?Dustin (06:24):I'd say at-home is a good third of our total media investment and then a big shift to TV about two years ago. And with connected TV platforms continuing to become more robust, it's made it a hell of a lot easier for us to get more geo-targeted because I think that spray and prey doesn't work when you're a regional brand and you want to get really focused on zip codes and you want to try to drive measurement. And so connected TV has been huge for us and whether that's through our partnerships with the World Surf League or we're just doing a sports our brand, what we know though is that from all of our consumer data is that a huge percentage of our customers are sports fans. They watch a lot of football, they watch a lot of baseball. So what we do is we take our brand to those channels and through partnerships like ESPN, we've been able to really connect with consumers and drive some really nice measurable lift for the brand. You're watching a sports game and you're going to see beer brand X or insurance brand X with an athlete for that sport. And then you see our spot, which might have a bull rider in it or a surfer or a motocross rider, and it just stands outIlyse (07:33):With your brands embrace of sports and kind of that measurement piece of CTV, you must love that more live sports are coming into the connected TV space.Dustin (07:47):I think the beneficiaries of this sort of democratization of content and it's making things more competitive. So as you see the Disney Network, Hulu, ESPN, or you go to YouTube TV and some of the other platforms that are continuing to open up, it makes it really easy to be competitive in the space or to at least have a voice. I think our team's been really good at identifying those opportunities, proving the efficacy of those investments so that we can continue to do them.Damian (08:15):You hinted at something about the seasonality of marketing and I'm kind of interested in that as a marketer of beer and I guess in lots of ways, as you said, you're kind of marketing lifestyle, you have associations with surfers and athletes and the summer. I'm curious how often you think about the need to refresh campaigns and how do you keep them relevant to the culture cultural moment?Dustin (08:42):Yeah, great question. You definitely have to, in beer, especially with the retail partners, you need to be seasonal. I spent the first 20 years of my career on the music side as a retailer, so I know what retailers want. They're going to want, Hey, it's Memorial Day, I'm going to have a display in my store for a week and a half, two weeks. It better fit the theme of Memorial Day. Now how you do that, you can do that without just stars and stripes. There's other ways to do that, but the I idea of escapism and patriotism to a degree, but when you look at the retail calendar, there are a myriad, there's like 16 major temples that you have to win. So our team is definitely working to make sure that we're taking the overall thematic of our brand and pulling that down into those temples.(09:33):And that fits the larger brand story because obviously you don't want to have 16 different TV spots throughout the year. So we'll have several different campaigns throughout the year, but then those drop down into Cinco de Mayo or Day of the Dead or 4th of July. So you have to, depending on the channel that we're in, yeah, some stuff has to be far more granular to make sure that it's serving the need of that retailer or the desire of that retailer, and as well as making sure that we're still maintaining the brand identity that we want to have. While everybody else does Super Bowl and does football, we're doing the World Surf League pipeline, which is the Super Bowl of surf, so is the official beer of the WSL when everyone's doing Super Bowl, we're doing surfing.Damian (10:10):Now, Dustin listeners can't see this, but I know behind you you've got some fantastic vintage guitars there, which I wanted. I know that you are a musician and before you worked at 8 0 5, you worked as a marketer in the music industry, including for Ernie Ball, music Man and Guitar Center. And I'm kind of interested in the kind of synergies that you might have found there between marketing to musicians and the kind of now the position you're in now marketing beer.Dustin (10:42):It's really sort of a story of serendipity. I got my first guitar when I was 14 years old and it sort of changed my life. Music just bordered became this obsession and it's what I wanted to do, started a band and typical story, didn't go to college, was like college, I'm going to be in a band, mom, what are you talking about? So I begged her at the time she was working, she was the executive assistant to the CEO O of Guitar Center back in the nineties when they were still a small company. And I said, Hey, just give me a job in the mail room or something, and so just give me the summer. Let me prove to you that my band can be in great before I have to go to college. And so she got me a job in the mail room and said, three months, that's it. And three months turned into 18 years.(11:35):I worked my way up to vice president and that typical age old story. But what I found really early on when I got there was, and I remember there was a moment, I was there a couple of months working in the mail room, excited in the mail room is right next to the marketing department and there was a great VP of marketing. It was Mike. I still talk to him to this day, 20 something years later. He always says, his joke is, you're the best hire I ever made. But I remember looking at the marketing materials and saying to the guys like, Hey, we're not marketing to, I'm the customer. Why don't you talk to me? We should change the way that we talk to the customers because this doesn't make sense. I'm the customer, I don't want to read this. So I pitched him some ideas and he's like, yeah, that's a great idea. You want a job in marketing?(12:18):And I went from $4 and 50 cents an hour to $9 an hour. I thought it was rich. I'm 18 years old. And I started that journey. And I think what I realized really early on, and what was great about Guitar Center was that our mission was to mint new customers. We realized early on through a great visionary, CEO, we had Marty Albertson was that we had to make sure that we were creating musicians. There wasn't a lot of 'em. When you think about the population of the world, it think it's like 2% our musicians. So if you want to continue to sell guitars and you want to continue to sell instruments, you've got to inspire people to want to play music. So our mission became taking this great feeling and propelling that and perpetuating it to get more people excited about it. And we became a platform for artists and creating, over the course of my 20 years, I got to create TV shows and write documentaries and make slashes documentary.(13:09):I got to things that you would only dream of when you were a kid to make art with other artists that inspired the world. And I think the common thread through all of that was that great marketing, great brands stand for something clear and enduring. I'm very, very lucky that as a songwriter and a musician early on, that I found this extension of that creative process to sort of keep me inspired. I mean marketing in a lot of ways, your writers, your songwriters, your creatives, and you get to do that while also tackling, for me at least the necessary evil of lift analysis, analytics andDamian (13:46):Some of those things that come with the business. Our musicians have to be marketers these days anyway. Right.Ilyse (13:50):That's very true. And that 2%, we at least have two in our miss because Damian's a musician as well. But yeah, it's so interesting that you talk about that area of the population and in some ways it's almost harder to reach those very niche communities.Dustin (14:09):Yeah, there's that great quote. I don't know if it came from Nike, it was probably Nike, but what's that speak to the core loud enough that everyone else can hear? I mean, I think that's been a mission of music. I mean, remember the indie movement or the punk movement, it was like everybody didn't want to be mainstream, and it was just like, do this thing, own your audience. And then what happens is the cool thing, everybody wants to sit at the cool table. Everybody wants to be a part of the movement, but you can't market to the people that want to be in the movement. You have to market to the people who have started the movement, and then what happens is then you can maintain some credibility.Damian (14:40):I'm just curious to get your high level perspective on what do you think needs to change in the ad marketplace today, which as we all know, is very much digital programmatic.Dustin (14:52):I think product placement right now, especially on podcasts, is just incredibly oversaturated. And I understand that when you've got a major budget and you're moving money around and you're trying to do everything you can to drive eyeballs, but I have this conversation all the time with the agency. I'm not interested in the most amount of eyeballs. I want the right ones. And when I look at a podcast and I just see energy drinks on tables and then right behind it, I see a Starbucks cup and the cans aren't open, I just think there's too much of that going on. To me, there's not real connections. So I think one of the things for me that's just unfortunate is because of the amount of money and the amount of ad money that's available and it's all moving from different platforms, is that sort of approach has created, I think a really high level of high bar for entry into some of these categories.(15:40):The expectations of money that are tied to some of these opportunities are so overblown. So I think that to me, that's always been something that I've always struggled with that I always hope is going to work itself out and well. I think that you go through ebbs and flows, especially when times get tough, people will cut back on their marketing, they cut back on sponsorships, and that's when opportunities open up. And if you're smart and you manage your money effectively and you have dollars, when other brands are carving back, that's when you can start to find really interesting opportunities. But for me, yeah, influencer marketing, product seating, I've never been excited about it. One of the things that we say all the time at Firestone Walker is keep the main thing, the main thing. And by doing that, we put on ourselves from chasing too many squirrels in the backyard.Ilyse (16:30):I love that.Dustin (16:31):Yeah.Ilyse (16:32):Is there anything you are obsessed with figuring out right now?Dustin (16:35):I mean, we sell millions of cases of beer and our first party data. We've done an amazing job of our first party data, emails building customer attention, but there is this weird thing with social, and I'm just obsessed with trying to figure out what it is. And our agency's got great relationships with meta and these platforms, and nobody, one can seem to give me the answer of what is happening on the backend within the algorithms that is preventing some of the biggest brands in the world with tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of consumers. This ability to create real audiences on these platforms, because we live in a world now where all content is consumed through just a few channels. When you think about YouTube, whatever happens with TikTok, Instagram Meta, et cetera, there's a only handful of channels where a majority of all of the content consumption is taking place.(17:31):And if every single one of those has a toll booth between you and your customer, but then there's also a filter that is preventing you from really building your audience. I'm obsessed with trying to figure that out. If we do believe in this idea of the zeitgeist and that culture matters and that brands stand for something clear and enduring, the world is going to continue and down this digital path. And sure, point of sale and billboards and TV advertising are great ways to tell people about your brand, but it is the way to get your arms around them. It's going to be on these platforms and the ones that are coming. And I think that's what the industry as a whole is always the industry as a whole struggles with this. And I think it can be dangerous in the sense that you over obsess it and then you put too much money into like, well, I got to grow followers, or I got to grow my audience. Versus like, well, I just got to drive, drive affinity in purchase intent. And so that's, I think the balance of how do we focus on stuffing the funnel, creating a tremendous amount of energy for our brands. The right partnerships is omnipresent in the right cultural segments that we want to be in, but at the same time try to figure out how we can expand our tent and get more people into it.Damian (18:46):Wow. Ali, I love that conversation with Dustin. I mean, it's not every day you get to talk to somebody who's a musician and a marketer and who's able to tie both of those things together so well as he did. But what was the standout thing to you that he said?Ilyse (19:02):I think what really stuck out was kind of playing how Firestone and Dustin kind of play that fine line of keeping consistent, but also not being too rigid and trying new things with customers. I know with 9,000 plus breweries, it's kind of crazy that there's so much competition to stick out and beer brands have to stick out. But what he said was really interesting about staying consistent with an agency and measurement and really trying to find, making sure that what you're making art essentially actually makes sense.Damian (19:45):Yeah, I agree with you and I feel like one of the most powerful things he said to me was when he was at Guitar Center, when he was there for 17 years, his vision was to mint new musicians and identifying that only 2% of the world population, 2%, I think he said musicians. So you have to inspire more people to want to create music. And taking that sort of core philosophy and applying it to his current role at 8 0 5 seems to be something that's driving him as a mission driven marketer. I think as he said, great brands have to stand for something enduring. So in that regard, I think he's really smart, and to do this at this cultural moment where there's so much fragmentation, that is one way to help him clear through all the clutter and stay focused.Ilyse (20:30):Yeah, I think one of my favorite quotes too was like keep the main thing, the main thing, and that keeps us basically from chasing those squirrels.Damian (20:44):That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. I'm Ilyse, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

Dow Jones CMO Sherry Weiss reveals the marketing strategy behind growing subscription businesses for publications like The Wall Street Journal.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse LiffreingDamian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're delighted to talk with Sherry Weiss, the CMO of Dow Jones.Damian Fowler (00:14):And Sherry's responsible for growing Dow Jones' subscription business across the publisher's. Numerous business titles, which include the Wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, and Investors Business Daily,Ilyse Liffreing (00:26):But that's not all. Sherry also heads up the brand and enterprise go-to-market strategy for Dow Jones Research and Newswire services like TibaDamian Fowler (00:35):In an era where publishers are facing many challenges to their business models. From the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai, Sherry gets into how the publishers answering back by building a subscription strategy.Ilyse Liffreing (00:48):We start off by talking about the Wall Street Journal's latest campaign.Sherry Weiss (00:56):So it's your business. It's not only our new campaign, but our new brand platform, which we launched in June of last year. A little bit about the history of how we got into this new platform. So our previous platform was Trust Your Decisions and I joined the organization about two and a half years ago. One of the first things that the team and I did at that point in time is really dive deeply into understanding our current and then our future growth audience needs. And when we were going through that research, one of the things that came out was the idea around trust and how that's table stakes(01:33):And what our audience are saying that's a given and kind of don't tell us to trust you, we will determine that. And so we realized that there was this need to speak a little bit differently to our future audiences and also to crack the code on what Wall Street Journal is. So Wall Street Journal is a storied brand, it's well known, but oftentimes we were seeing with our growth audiences that people did not think the journal applied to them. And in all of our customer research, what we were beginning to piece together is the folks that read the journal and folks that we believe are our editorial content applies to. They have a lot of similarities underlying them. They're all ambitious, they want to be knowledgeable, they're quite intellectual, but they may be in different stages of their career. And so part of what we needed to do with this brand platform was help bridge the gap is to explain to our future audiences why the journalist for them.(02:31):And the other thing that's interesting about this campaign is that it's the first time in quite some time that we truly leaned into the journalism, our actual core product. And in that campaign we brought out specific articles into the actual campaign and balance those articles between things that you would expect the journal to write about and things that you would not expect us to write about. And a really good example is that we had an article around folks that were becoming lifelong renters and those were decisions that they were making. And so one of our headlines leaned into that. Another one was around make hotdog economics your business when you talk about food and inflation. And that was showing up in a hot dog truck. And the great thing there is it killed two burns with one stone because we were able to go loud with an awareness campaign, but it also enabled us a way to drive back to sampling. And in all of our campaigns we had QR codes, it actually drove back to the original article and that was quite successful.Damian Fowler (03:38):That's really fascinating. One of the things before we get into what you learned from this campaign, how did you identify where those potentially net new audiences readers were coming from? You say you have this core group of people who are interested in business, but then you have people who are kind of adjacent to it but also interested in business. I'm just curious, how did you think about that and how did you sort of build that into your strategy?Sherry Weiss (04:06):Sure. So everything we do is data-based and customer reader first. So as part of this re-looking at our platform, we did a deep audience study and within that audience study we went out obviously across the market around news readers who are willing to pay and really started having deep conversations, both qualitative as well as quantitative research into what people are looking for and also finding common threads around attitudes and life point of views. And what we found was we have a really core group of readers tried and true folks that you would expect over index more into investing and working on Wall Street and more of your traditional business folks, but business expands so much more than that. And what we were finding is that there were a deep growth area where there are people who are outside of what we would say are our traditional professions, marketing, consulting, government actually that have, they are interested in the type of content that we write, they just may not be aware that we're writing it. And again, as I mentioned, we're also looking at our audiences that it's not so much around your profession or where you live, but the attitudes in which you hold in common, right? So your desire to be well-informed, your ambition to get ahead in whatever way you want to get ahead, they all have that in common. And so that's really how we started crafting the growth audiences. And then obviously within that with the research we gleaned a lot of information on where they're engaging and that's where we would go out to find in marketing. Interesting.Ilyse Liffreing (05:51):Now you said the first phase of the campaign started in June and I remember going to the Wall Street Journal house in Canon, seeing that all over the place there, what other areas did the campaign come to life in that aspect besides maybe the articles?Sherry Weiss (06:09):Sure. It's interesting because again, all of everything really in the campaign, everything that we put forth had an article that was underlying it. But the cool thing about it is that you could do what you would call traditional marketing. So display on social out of home, we did a Penn Station takeover, but you could also, we were able to leverage this campaign to make it more experiential as well. So as you mentioned, we had the Wall Street Journal, cafe A can. If anybody listening was in there, you probably saw there were things like our salt and pepper shakers and on there had QR codes that had, I can't remember the article that we raised there, but it drove back to an article that had something to do with salt and pepper on the menu. Everything had a article that was associated to it. And so there was an article that we were featuring Make Sleep, divorce Your Business, and we were able to put that above a space that was a mattress store, make EV economics your business, and we would take out space in charging stations so you could take the content that we write about, which is so embedded in every day, build it into the context in which a potential reader is engaging and that actually cracks the code, right?(07:24):It's your business. It's so much more than stock trading or what's happening in banking these days.Ilyse Liffreing (07:31):Yeah, it's everywhere.Sherry Weiss (07:32):Yeah, exactly.Damian Fowler (07:33):And you're sort of changing perceptionSherry Weiss (07:35):OfDamian Fowler (07:35):The paper.Sherry Weiss (07:36):Yes, definitely.Damian Fowler (07:37):And now obviously the Wall Street Journal is one of several publications that you manage. I guess it's maybe the vanguard of the Dow Jones Business publications, but you have many other prestige publications like Barron's Investors Business Daily, which is probably more niche for people actually on the front lines of business. When you think about the whole portfolio, are there crossover audiences or are they distinct audiences?Sherry Weiss (08:04):I mean, the short answer is yes and yes. So the nice thing is, as you had mentioned, we have a four premier consumer publications, wall Street Journal, Barron's, MarketWatch, IBD, all of them in one way, shape or form is journalism with a business lens. But each one provides a different take on an issue or a topic and serves a different purpose. And you mentioned IBD, right? IBD is really focused on helping people make decisions on trading in growth stocks. And it's not just about information but tools that investors can use. And so we believe that there are, again, taking an audience first approach, there are audiences that fit squarely into each one of those publications but may not overlap. But we also believe that there are audiences that would find value across all of our publications. And interestingly enough, we had done some testing into this over the last two years, really more so from a marketing offer.(09:10):What happens if you bring somebody on with an introductory subscription offer to a variety of our publications? And we found that number one, people were opting into it at really high take rates. We also found that once they were on this proposition, people were reading actively across our publications were very engaged and increased engagement over standalone and retain better. And so we've now made this into a true proposition WSJ Plus, and this is just the beginning, but basically we target very specific audiences who are investors who are hungry for knowledge from all different angles, and WSJ Plus is a platform that enables them to do that.Damian Fowler (09:56):What was the kind of goal there? In a way,Sherry Weiss (09:58):The main goal is to provide additional value and deep in relationships with our subscribers and frankly our future subscribers. But we know across our ecosystem that we have news and information. And then if you think about Dow Jones overall and news data information and analysis to help people, whether it be you as a person outside the office or in a professional capacity to make decisions. And so the idea around the plus offering is how do you open that up so that your readers are able to find additional ways to find value with youIlyse Liffreing (10:36):When you have so many publications and you are trying to grow a business, that first party data that you get from subscribers is very important. How is the Wall Street Journal and other publications under Dell Jones, how are you guys using that first party data to perhaps reach new subscribers and then I guess carry on that same messaging across publications?Sherry Weiss (11:08):Sure. Prior to joining Dow Jones about two and a half years ago, I come out of consumer financial services most of my time in the credit card industry. And for anybody who has worked in credit cards or financial services knows that everything that you do, all of your strategies are seeped in deep, deep data payment companies know a lot about you. And so one of the first things that I did when I came in was really to take a look at how we can start supercharging our strategy to not make it a holistic strategy actually or a monolithic strategy, but really start building out personalized ways of engaging with our prospects and our readers. First from a segment perspective, but eventually we want to get to a way of engaging via a of one what worked in media a few years ago is not going to be the secret sauce that drives growth for the future. And so leaning into unlocking our data and analytics is important. Over the last two years, we've built out an internal analytics team really focused on building out predictive models to help drive our strategies forward. And that obviously is all built off of our first party data. A really interesting one that is in beta right now when you talk about this is more around engaging and retaining our customer base is being able to predict customer behavior based on market fluctuations(12:34):And really being able to take not only our first party data but indices and market research sets and pull together into models to say, okay, what flags are there four weeks out from a market shift that could help us determine whether or not we need to think about our retention offers more aggressively or whether we should be leaning into paid media a little bit more to start acquiring customers on certain products that perhaps are more sensitive to market shifts.Ilyse Liffreing (13:06):That's so fascinating. So basically if the market is down, say like today if the market is down, you can predict that you'll have more readers that day.Sherry Weiss (13:20):Well, it could be one of a few things, right? In some respects, and it's interesting because how you apply that model across each one of our products, and as I mentioned it's not just publications but there's tools as well. How you tweak that model to help you make decisions is going to be different based on how someone uses each one of your products. So in some cases, if you have a product that's more geared towards trading and you're seeing swings, let's say the market is swinging upwards, you really want to lean in during that period of time to start acquiring customers because there's an uptick in interest. Or to your point, if you are seeing volatility in the market and they're coming to the journal or they're coming to market watch to understand that that also is a time to really start thinking about is your engagement strategy different? Are you willing to shift again from an acquisition perspective, pull forward media that you would've been spending later in the year? Things like that secret.Ilyse Liffreing (14:16):How are you guys able to predict that though four weeks in Advance?Sherry Weiss (14:19):That secret secret? That's the secret sauce. Okay. Secret sauce, that's the secret sauce you don't have to tell us,Damian Fowler (14:25):But it's fair to say that the marketing campaigns are much faster now and more(14:30):Iterative based on current eventsSherry Weiss (14:33):Very much. And I think that is the other area that we've focused on When I first came in, if you are in marketing in a news organization and you cannot respond at the speed of news, then you are not appropriately supporting your newsrooms. And when we first came in, we did an end-to-end assessment of how quickly we would be able to get creative into market based on breaking news. And it was days and we're now at a place where it's hours and in some case less than an hour. So being able to react that quickly, and it's not just about creative development, but making sure you have your audience targeting in place, you're able to turn things on. It obviously was a mix of people, process and tooling. So yes, we are able to react very quickly.Damian Fowler (15:20):That brings us to a question we might call a bigger picture question, but so in terms of the marketing channels that enable you to react to these conditions, where do you see value? Where do you look?Sherry Weiss (15:34):Well, let's put it this way. We're looking daily and constantly evaluating where we're putting investment in and where we're showing up. And it's also very product specific. So there's certain products that are quite niche that you're leaning into, really niche influencer strategy for instance. And then there's other that you want to go broad. So obviously traditional channels, paid search, paid social, that all still is very important for us. Organic traffic is still a quite substantial part of our conversion strategy. And so how you show up organically in the ecosystem, if you think about on social media and other outlets, really important. The brand campaign is actually quite important because what we're really trying to do is the referral ecosystem evolves and it perhaps is, well, it's not perhaps is being disrupted. What makes somebody wake up in the morning and want to type in Wall Street journal.com for instance. That's where the brand campaign is really important and why we're leaning into brand marketing more so than we ever have before.Ilyse Liffreing (16:39):Now at the same time, publishers are facing multiple challenges to their business models, what's new there, but the pullback of third party cookies to the advance of ai. What has been the most helpful way to stay true to the business during this time of constant change?Sherry Weiss (16:57):What just popped into my mind is the quote, my dad always to this day always says, but always told us when we were kids. And it's this idea around adversity breeds opportunity. And so you can think about adversity or changing landscape or changing business models and you can be fearful about it and you can try to push back or you can lean into it. And I think what we're doing is we're leaning into it. The journal as a business has historically leaned into it. So interesting fact. We were the first ones to put up a paywall many moons ago and that was a time of disruption and we're going into a time of disruption now. The first thing is while you're thinking through, alright, what new channels do we want to go into? What brings people to us directly? How do we start building relationships with people in new and different ways?(17:51):You also have to lean into and feel really clear about, but who are you and not change that? And so the focus on, we have a storied history about delivering quality journalism through the lens of business that is what we're leaning into. And then trying to find our growth audiences where they are is where we need to crack the code. And what worked before is not going to work in the future. So test and learn is huge. And I know that sounds like a buzzword, but as I mentioned, we, it's not only about predictive analytics that we've introduced, but being okay with rapid testing and figuring out what's working and what's not and then switching quickly to either scale what's working or to stop what's not and everything needs to be measured.Ilyse Liffreing (18:39):We've noted and written about recently how certain social media channels have been inconsistent with promoting news, changing their own strategy with that. Is this something that you have to constantly think about and stay ahead of?Sherry Weiss (18:57):We can't sit back and rely on refers that traditionally sent traffic our ways. It's not just social media. A lot of places that were traditional referrals channels are really, their business models are looking to keep people on platform and social media. It will continue and continues to play a really important role both not only from a paid perspective but from a organic and amplification perspective. That's where our current and future audiences are engaging. And I think what we need to think about is cracking the code in two ways from an owned and operated perspective. How do we get people to come to us directly, but then also in these off platform channels, how do we show up differently? We've also made a lot of inroads into organic content on TikTok and I think the next place that we have to think about is we're engaging with our future audiences in those areas. How do we then think about new and different monetization models in order to capitalize on that?Ilyse Liffreing (20:01):What are you obsessed with figuring out right now?Sherry Weiss (20:06):The one thing, and it's going to sound cliche but it is on everybody's mind, is how to start capitalizing on the advent of gen ai. And AI has been around for a long time. We are using a machine learning at Dow Jones most. I talked about predictive modeling earlier, but really the next step on this is how do we start applying generative ai? And when I talk about obsessed with trying to crack the code, it's twofold. How do we leverage this technology to build more value added consumer facing propositions, but also how do we leverage it internally? How do we leverage to start helping us drive our marketing at scale? For instance, how do we leverage it to really start enhancing our predictive models? And so it's something top of mind, it's something that I'm actively learning about. It's something I want my team to really deeply engage in and it's here to stay. So cracking the code on that is important.Damian Fowler (21:10):Is marketing a science or an art?Sherry Weiss (21:13):Both marketing is both an art and a science. And if you miss each side of it, you miss the secret sauce of it. You can lean too far in each direction. Obviously I would say that I'm more of a science first marketer. That's where I lean first. But if you miss the human element, you can go way far into data and you miss the human element, the way you connect with people, your marketing is not going to resonate, it's not going to land. And it's interesting because I'm not going to be able to state the exact fact, but there was something that I saw at a speaking event the other day where it was saying, when you think about your testing agenda, you can actually make more progress in your creative testing than in your pricing. And that was an interesting thing because that says something about the art of marketing. How do you connect with your audience? And so to that point, although I just said that I tend to be more of a science marketer, most of my decisions are how I figure out how to engage with audiences is everything is based on what the customer is saying first. It's an outside in versus what we are assuming we should be saying to our end users.Damian Fowler (22:27):What would you do if you had an unlimited marketing budget?Sherry Weiss (22:32):Oh my goodness. All right, let me get the list out. It's like Santa came a hundred, a hundred cafes(22:39):A hundred. Well, no, interestingly enough, I guess that's where I'm going to lean into if I had an unlimited marketing budget. When you're trying to determine where to place your next dollar and you're talking about the mix of art and science, for better or for worse, you lean towards the science. And so your next dollar is always going to be you have to make the trade off of, am I going to place my next dollar in something that I know will return? Why? Or am I going to place my next dollar into something that's really unique, different, may not be measurable, but is breakthrough? And if I had an unlimited marketing budget, there would be Wall Street Journal cafes all over the place. Really being able to lean into really interesting different types of experiential events at scale could be really fun.Ilyse Liffreing (23:30):That was a great conversation with Sherry. Damien, what were some of your takeaways?Damian Fowler (23:34):Yeah, I love hearing from people who are marketing publications probably because I come from a background of journalism and it's always fascinating to hear, talk about how to build and find new readers, which is basically the big question for publications everywhere. When you've got a brand like the Wall Street Journal though, which is really a premium newspaper, probably the Vanguard newspaper in the United States along with the New York Times. It's interesting to hear Sherry talk about how she's trying to find those readers that might not be obvious beyond the business community and how she's using marketing to broaden that reach along with the tagline, which is it's your business. Business is everybody's business. And I think we increasingly realize that and it's smart of her to build a marketing campaign around that concept.Ilyse Liffreing (24:24):No, I know what you mean Damien. And what really interested me too is, and I wish she would've revealed her secret sauce here, but it's fascinating how they're able to predict their audience four weeks ahead of time and to be so on the cutting edge with news. And as she spoke about they had to reinvent the wheel a little bit and how they can cover certain news events with their team, being able to predict those insights of how their audience is going to react so quickly ahead of time is so powerful.Damian Fowler (25:01):I think that was really a great point. And the fact that marketing moves so much faster now based on what's happening. And especially for a publication like The Journal, which is built around market fluctuations and obviously has a huge political and business readership. So it's really important for them to be able to react to what's happening. And that was a big takeaway for me, talking about the speed at which now marketing moves, which is not built on six month or annual campaigns, but much more rapidly iterating as it were, which is that word we all use in the marketplace.Ilyse Liffreing (25:38):No, that's very true and that's what I'm going to think about the next time I go to Wall Street Journal Cafe as well.Damian Fowler (25:47):That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast, and I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

Stellantis’ CMO Raj Register talks about building consistent storytelling across channels, what she’s learning from AI and why she’s obsessed with connecting marketing action to tangible business outcomes. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing (00:01):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler (00:02):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse Liffreing (00:09):This week we're delighted to talk with Raj Register, the Senior Vice President and CMO for North America at Stellantis, one of the biggest names in the global auto industry.Damian Fowler (00:19):That's right. Stellantis is the powerhouse behind iconic brands like Jeep, Dodge, Ram, Chrysler, and so many more.Ilyse Liffreing (00:26):And as our North American fans may be well aware, stellantis just ran off one but two high profile spots at the Super Bowl in February, both featuring major celebs,Damian Fowler (00:37):Glenn Powell as Goldlock in the Ram Super Bowl commercial, and Harrison Ford who rarely appears in ads starring in the Jeep commercial.Ilyse Liffreing (00:45):Let's get started.Damian Fowler (00:51):The first thing I want to ask you, Raj, is how did it all come together?Raj Register (00:55):Yeah, that's a great question and not the most straightforward way that many would think. So at Stellantis we have something called a jump ball. And Jump ball basically means that we curate several agencies and we allow them to pitch and based on the pitch how we brief them and whoever comes up with the best idea pretty much wins the business. So for this past Super Bowl, we spoke to around 35 plus agencies and we were able to round them out to the best two, one for Ram, one for Jeep. So we go through several rounds of creative, we determine what's the best story, how does it really relate to our business? And from my perspective it was what's the best creative outside of that? Then what's the best thing that will help give us more runway past the Super Bowl? So outside of the creative is the business aspect and how are we going to perform and make sure that it delivers upon all of our goals.Damian Fowler (01:56):Now everyone knows, I guess at this point that the Super Bowl ad spot is one of the most coveted in the world and one of the most pricey I suppose. But wanted to ask you why was it important for Stellantis? I mean, you're the only order maker as I understand it, to have a spot during the game this year. Why was it important for you?Raj Register (02:14):There's a lot of dialogue around why were we the only one. I saw it as an incredible opportunity for us to be auto exclusive. When do you get to do that? During Super Bowl? It was really important for us to show up, not only to show that we're here, not only are we American born and we are proud of our brands, but when we think of everything we have to offer to our consumers, we wanted to leverage this as an opportunity to tell that story and give them an indication of who we are. And it was almost like a reintroduction back to America as well as supporting our UAW workers, supporting our dealers, supporting our employees. So I think it was a rally cry for us to just let everyone know that we're here and we're here to stay.Ilyse Liffreing (02:58):That's awesome. And such terrific actors in both of the commercials, Glenn Powell and Harrison Ford, and I feel like they speak to definitely different generations obviously of fans and types of moviegoers potentially. What were the main challenges of securing the talents?Raj Register (03:16):Gosh, so Glenn Powell, so we already have an established relationship with him for Ram. He did a really nice job with us for our integration that we had with Twisters. And so for him it was more of a natural fit. He has this serious nature, but he's also very funny. And so when we came up with the idea of Cody Lakson the Three Bears and using that old American fairytale to help bring to life something really cool and unique glim, I mean it was like a no-brainer, like let's extend this relationship because he's easy to work with, but then also he brings a lot to the table to help us with bringing things to life. So he was very involved with making sure that our script and how things showed up were authentic to him. But then also because he knows us as a brand, he knew certain things to lean into.(04:03):So he was a really good partner in that way. Harrison Ford was a lot more difficult for us to secure. So quite frankly, and if you've looked at any of the behind the scenes that were done, Harrison talked about his first answer was No, Olivier and a group of us went back and he started with a different script, one that paid homage to Harrison Ford, but then also related to us as a brand and the freedom of America. And so once we were able to align on the idea and have a script that Harrison actually reacted to in a positive way, he actually reviewed it with his wife and she said, now that's good. Then it was a matter of, okay, well who's the director who could work with him and make sure that this comes to life in the way that he's proud of as well as us? We tap James Mango and that was incredible. So they already have a really good relationship. Mango did four versus Ferrari, so he has this really extensive background in movies, but for commercials, this was, I believe it was his first one. And so just balancing the star power of Harrison, Mangold and Olivier, it was like the trifecta of greatness I would say. But it took a while for us to get to where we needed to be. We shot our Super Bowl at three weeks before,Ilyse Liffreing (05:24):Which that is a tight turnaround.Raj Register (05:27):It's a lot of pressure, but being on set and getting everything together, Harrison was amazing, but that one was definitely a day by day, how are we going to get this done? And just making sure that he felt comfortable with the commercial and it came out better than I could have expected. But that one definitely was a challenge, but in a good way.Damian Fowler (05:48):And it's interesting to note that Harrison rarely does commercials, so it was an amazing coup for you to getIlyse Liffreing (05:53):Him. Totally. And yeah, it's great that it came, but it's also a great example of the brand campaign overall because it's the power of choice and why was this the right message for the moment?Raj Register (06:08):Yeah, so just to clarify, so power of choice was our Ram ad and freedom of choice was our G ad. And so the reason why we chose those bookends of power and freedom one is it's the breadth and the quilt of America being able to make a choice and be happy and stand up for whatever it is that you want or whatever you believe in. The other part was is as we think about the way the automotive business is changing, there's a lot of energy around what type of vehicle should you choose? And our stance at Stellantis is, one, we want you to love our brands and our vehicles first, and then you make a choice as far as what platform or what energy you want. In both commercials we were able to highlight our ice vehicles, which is our gas hybrid and all electric.(07:04):With that being said, it's hey, making a choice should be fun. There's a lot of negative feedback around Bev versus not, or should you have a gas vehicle versus not. And for us it's you have the freedom or power to choose the vehicle that's best for you, and we want to make sure that you make a choice with us and giving customers the education of we are a company for a person like you and we just want you to choose with us. And so that was the premise of it and we were able to do it on one end very humorously. And the other was more around the freedom and pride of being American and being able to make a decision for yourself.Damian Fowler (07:43):Now, one of the most interesting things about the Super Bowl this year was that it was also streamed on Tubi, which is Fox's fast channel. And I wanted to get into this in terms of the campaign. How did you think about and come up with a digital strategy around that that goes beyond the second quarter ad?Raj Register (08:03):Yeah, so I'll just say even for the day of, it was interesting because being at Super Bowl, I got a chance to see what was happening on the two B app and really being able to just see the integration and being able to not only see our ad live, but also our halftime show. So that was incredible to see live TV while you're on the spot because it's a different experience. What consumers see at home is not the same as what you see in the stadium. The important thing for us was leveraging all opportunities from TV to streaming to social, to tell a complete story. And we want it to be just, okay, here's the TV spot and move on. How can we leverage other avenues to make sure that our story is getting out there and then continuing the story with our consumers or those that are interested in learning more. Yeah, there's a group that are watching on TV or in a environment where they're in a sports bar or something like that, but you also have these other group of customers that are watching on their phones. And so that's why it was important for us to leverage all avenues and all media channels to make sure that our collective 360 story was getting out there.Ilyse Liffreing (09:11):Totally. Did you know that it was going to be streamed on Tubi when you first made the buy?Raj Register (09:17):No, we didn't. And so I learned when I was in the suite with Fox Sports, and so they came and said, Raj, you can see everything live and here's how everything works. And so I had everything set up and it was really nice to see. So I was trying to balance be here in the moment, but then I was enthralled by Tubi and so throughout breaks and things like that, I was very much so engaged. So it was a surprise and delight for me and something that I'll definitely continue to leverage as we look at our media buying practices in the future.Ilyse Liffreing (09:49):Totally makes sense. Curious about how those overall numbers added to the results of the Super Bowl spots. And on that note, let's get into those results with the overall takeaway. First off, what was the reaction to the campaign overall?Raj Register (10:04):That one, we did something a little bit different than we typically do. So what we have normally done is Super Bowl is the coveted day. We don't do teasers as a company. Everyone sees it at the same time and it's under lock and key. And we tried something a bit different this year. So for Ram, we created some teasers and so we went live with our teasers a week before Super Bowl, and then on the Wednesday before we had an opportunity with the Today Show to show the entire commercial and really start some of the excitement and engagement before Super Bowl. From a press standpoint, the world knew or people knew that we would have a Jeep spot and we kept up with our previous practice of everything's under embargo, so no one knew that one, we had Harrison Ford or we had a two minute spot.(10:56):And so it was a complete really surprise to most people. And so to have that go live during the Super Bowl itself, I mean that just took off from a social sentiment standpoint. Me being a former Ford employee, I got so many text messages because the last line where Harrison talks about loving his Jeep even though his name is Ford, that was quite the zinger. And so everything that we've seen so far has been overwhelmingly positive. Positive sentiment for Jeep was 99%, and for Ram it was 98%. From a global PR standpoint, over 10 billion for ram, we had over 200 million views for Jeep, over 106 million views on social channels. So many recognition and rewards. Ad blitz was one where we were number one spot for Jeep, and so they just keep coming in. And so those are the things that you know, did the right thing.Ilyse Liffreing (11:52):Yeah, those are fantastic numbers.Damian Fowler (11:54):Amazing. I guess it's fair to say you hit your metrics for successRaj Register (11:58):For game day and right after. So another thing that we did differently this time is that we have usage rights for 90 days after Super Bowl, so it wasn't just a day of and done. We're leveraging the content for some localized messaging. We leveraged our websites CRM and really doing a complete 360 after the fact. So we'll have a postmortem after the 90 days of our campaign, which is something very different for us. And having cut downs and really being able to support more product and storytelling key, why buy messaging? And it's something that I think will be pivotal for us as a company and really set the stage for how we do things in the future.Damian Fowler (12:42):I'd love to zoom out a little bit. You have many iconic brands on your watch, not just Jeep and Ram, Dodge Chrysler and also European brands too. I wanted to ask you though, how do you balance your marketing across so many different brand identities while also sort of keeping in-house that cohesive idea of strategy for the whole company?Raj Register (13:05):At a company Stellantis where you have essentially a house of brands, you have the very all American Chrysler, Dodge, Ram G brands, and then Alpha Mayo and Fiat, each brand has its own DNA. And that's how I see it is the DNA is what sets the stage for the fabric of how that vehicle or how that brand should show up. And we need to be tried and true to that. Many times we get ideas and an agency may pitch us and it might be a great idea and say for example, they pitch us for Chrysler and it comes across as Dodge. I say that's a great idea, but it's very dodge, it's very brotherhood, badass speed power for Chrysler, more of the family with Pacifica and capability and off-road with Jeep and Ram also having capability. It's the only brand that has, and basically in the world that only does pickup trucks.(14:03):And so when you think of all those things, each brand has its own identity, and so you don't have to mix and match things. As individuals, we have our own personalities and as families, we have our own DNA. That's how I see the brands. And so that part to me is fairly easy to really just understand and make sure that there's clear lines of delineation. When I think of marketing though, there's best practices and there's things as a company that we know to be true. When we think about, for me, I have things that are considered either above the line or below and just really understanding what investment, what media channels, what optimization, what tactics are necessary for us to be successful with a particular nameplate or launch. And ensuring that I have a complete cohesive plan and really establishing what are my KPIs and goals and things that I need to make sure that I'm accomplishing.(14:58):If there's something that needs to be communicated and it falls below the line where we have maybe digital only or we're doing only experiential, really understanding what are my priorities, what am I trying to deliver upon? And then holding true to that. So as a company, having marketing rigor and expertise around what it is that we really need to establish as far as a North star. And then also working with our brand heads on does this meet the brand? DNA does it meet our customer goals? Does it meet our key why buys? And then you move forward. And so a lot of things we do are collaboratively. So it's not the marketing team on our own just driving things and bringing things out the door. It's how are we establishing what's necessary for us to be successful? And at the end of the day, it is about sales and share and making sure that we have a positive sentiment in the market and people are shopping us.Ilyse Liffreing (15:54):Speaking about shopping and digital, today's consumers are really omnichannel in their approach to shopping. How has that shift really impacted marketing in the auto sector? Is AI and automation having an impact on that approach?Raj Register (16:12):So I would say I don't know if AI necessarily has an impact as a compliment. And so what AI does, and when you think of omnichannel, it allows us to do things faster, more agile, more targeted, more regional focused. And so when I think of how customers consume things many times it takes them seeing something in many different places and how are we collectively telling a story and really understanding what part of the funnel are we leveraging, what channel for and ensuring that we're doing it in the most authentic way that is not overbearing to someone that's receiving it. But to me I see it as how are we taking them down the funnel? So if on TV I'm leveraging a brand campaign for excitement and engagement, but then when a customer sees a similar ad or a version of it at the digital level where they're now as a call to action where we're saying, Hey, learn more, there's a call to action for either building price or learning more about our features and options.(17:17):And then when you get to the deal level, allowing them to be the closer of the play. And so all of these things should be, as I said, in compliment with one another. Whenever we create something, we leverage AI to help us with not only creating faster content in a way that gives us that agility, but then we also use it for our data and our forecasting for our modeling and how are we leveraging our media channels, and then also how are things performing and then helping set the stage for, well, you did this component very well, how do you go deeper in a particular audience or market to help establish what success really looks like? And so I think AI is very complimentary in a positive way to really help establish not only from a content perspective, but when you think about performance, it definitely helps guide it from a forecast standpoint what we should expect or how we should leverage certain investments.Ilyse Liffreing (18:18):Certainly, and it's hard enough obviously to differentiate the brands from each other and keep true to their own brand guidelines, but as a marketer, you have to also differentiate your brands from competitors like GM and Ford and Tesla. What shapes basically your approach to that,Raj Register (18:43):The brand, DNA, when you have that and it's rooted in everything you do, we don't have to worry about looking or sounding like someone else because we know who we are. And that when you have that as your true north is very easy to really understand who you are and where you show up. Now when I think of brand health and brand sentiment and things that we need to listen to customers on, so for example, if we have feedback that's saying our brand is beloved, but customers don't understand our features and technology or they don't understand capability or they don't understand certain components, we use that as data to help us with our storytelling, especially at the tier two and retail level, to really start leaning into things that maybe we're missing the boat on, especially if it's something that we believe is a key factor as to a why buy. But when I think of a Tesla or a Ford or a gm, they have their own brand identities as well. And so trying to chase or be them is not the answer. Many of our brands have been in place for decades. I mean, Chrysler will be coming up on its hundredth anniversary at this point. We know who we are. And holding true to that I think is the most important thing you can ever do as a brand and as a marketer.Damian Fowler (20:07):I love that answer. When you know who you are, that's what you lean on. And I think that goes for individuals too in lots of ways. Not to get too psychological about this, but it is a true, it's true. Yeah, it's true. I know that there's a question here about, and maybe that's the answer to this next question, but when things are changing, big picture, macro conditions, global economy, which has a big impact on the auto industry, how do you as a marketer stay focused?Raj Register (20:35):Yeah, and that's an interesting question because when you think of macroeconomic factors, it can be competitive actions. It could be things like tariffs. There's all these things that you need to take into consideration. And the things that we can control, the controllables, I always make sure I understand what those things are. The things that I can't control are the things that I consider noise, meaning there's disruption and people don't like Stellantis because of X, Y, and Z, or this decision was made, we had a lot of leadership change over, we can't digest all of that. And so what I try to do is make sure that whatever plan is done soundly, it's inclusive of any key stakeholders that are necessary to help us make whatever decision it is that we're going to market with. And then also having consistency. And so yes, there's external things that we need to have into consideration, but if we run our business and change day by day, fly by fly, we'll be a weather report. We won't be able to really hold true. So for me, having consistency and sticking to a plan, now you need to have some agility in there to account for things that are more major. But when I think of major versus minor, I try to keep the minors at bay plan for the majors as much as I can, but then hold true. The more you're consistent and the more you have a plan that you stick to, the better success you have.Ilyse Liffreing (22:08):So it said marketing is a balance between art and science. Do you agree?Raj Register (22:14):A thousand percent. A thousand percent. So when I think of art and science one, that's my background. So I have an engineering background, very much science. And then when you have the marketing piece, there is science there, but there's a lot of art. And when you bridge the two together and you know how to yin and yang the two, it works. While I love data, I love to make sure that things are technically sound. I also recognize that there's art in here that you can never discount. And so I think it's an important balance to respect both parts of it. And when you're able to marry the two together, that's where I think the magic happens.Damian Fowler (22:54):What are you obsessed with figuring out right now?Raj Register (22:57):I'm obsessed with figuring out modernization of marketing. And when I say that it's what are the disruptive things that are not necessarily on the map? So we have a voiceover talent that we use for G, and this is a recognizable voice, and we've used this same individual for over a decade. He got into a car accident and his vocal cords were damaged, we had a decision to make. It's going to be a different voice that we maybe don't want to necessarily use. This wasn't the decision, or could we leverage technology using AI to recreate his voice, get him into an agreement, still going to compensate and all of those things. But how do we continue with ensuring that there's a human part of this? We use the technology, but we were able to still move ourselves forward. And so that's an example for me of I'm obsessed with how do you create opportunities? And again, it goes to the art and science to create things that may be a challenge that you can fix quickly, or are there things that I'm not thinking about that are very different and disruptive that I can start grounding myself on today because it's going to be even more relevant in five years.Ilyse Liffreing (24:20):What if you had an unlimited budget? What would be your marketing dream? What would you doRaj Register (24:27):If I had an unlimited budget? Really being able to establish a true footprint that gave true indication of what things are necessary for all consumers, whether they're African-American, Hispanic women, millennials, whoever it is, being able to create very bespoke one-to-one communications for them at the stage and at the channel that they need to make a decision. I think being able to create something like that and really understanding what's necessary, what drives someone, and then being able to truly correlate a marketing action with a true business sale impact, whatever the call to action is, I think it would be huge. Right now, we guess we say, okay, there's all these things. They clicked on an ad, they did X, Y, and Z, but we don't always know, especially for a big purchase for online things, that's easier to track. But when I think of true decision making, what are the things that really triggers individuals to make a choice and be able to correlate it to business results, I think is something that I've not yet seen done. And if I were to be able to crack that code, I'd be winning. So I think that's limitless.Damian Fowler (25:50):So Eli, what were your kind of thoughts off the back of it?Ilyse Liffreing (25:54):Yeah, I really liked how she talked about consistency, especially being a brand that is so prevalent in today's culture. She said, the more you're consistent, the better for customers because customers can see if you're not. Basically, she said, if we change every day, we're just going to be like a weather reports.Damian Fowler (26:15):That was very grounding. And I think when you talk about omnichannel campaigns and you think about the consistency of the brand across all of those channels, that's got to be a huge factor. The thing that resonates with me about that too is the fact that she talked about the DNA of each brand in her portfolio, whether it be Ram or Jeep, and just knowing that that was kind of a revelation to me. You can lean back on that idea. And I thought that kind of idea of when you know who you are, things are easy at is easier. So that was something that really stuck with me. And then there was one other thing she said that clarity of thought when she said it's what now, so what? Now what? And I just thought that was a really nice way of structuring the way a marketing campaign might be planned and then how it might roll out.Ilyse Liffreing (27:03):I also liked how she talked about the balance between art and science, whether data only tells us so much, but you got to lean into things with your heart as well.Damian Fowler (27:10):Hearts and minds, right? That's the old adage.Ilyse Liffreing (27:13):That is. That's it for this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler (27:19):This series is produced by Molten Hart. The Current Podcast theme is by loving caliber, and The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.Raj Register (27:26):And remember the brand DNA. When you have that and it's rooted in everything you do, we don't have to worry about looking or sounding like someone else because we know who we are.Damian Fowler (27:39):I'm Ilyse, I'm Damian, and we'll see you next time.

At SXSW, The Current Podcast partnered with The Female Quotient to spotlight trailblazing women in media and marketing to mark International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month.In this episode, we sit down with Andrea Gilman, chief marketing officer at Early Warning, owner of digital payments services Paze and Zelle, to discuss how she’s driving innovation in digital payments. 

At SXSW, The Current Podcast partnered with The Female Quotient to spotlight trailblazing women in media and marketing to mark International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month.In this episode, we sit down with Melissa Giordano, chief client officer at CMI Media Group, to discuss how AI, data, and personalized messaging are reshaping healthcare marketing.

Rebecca Dye Yonushonis, CMO of New Belgium Brewing, discusses the brand’s bold strategy to connect with Gen Z consumers through its new launch, Lightstrike.

Genentech VP, CMO Erica Taylor joins The Current Podcast to share her unique journey from immunology to biotech marketing, and the evolving role of biotech brands in mainstream media.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Kat Vesce (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce. And I'm Ilyse Liffreing and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're spotlighting trailblazing women in marketing at this year's South by Southwest.Ilyse Liffreing (00:16):For this episode, we're excited to be joined by Erica Taylor, vice president and chief marketing Officer at Genentech, a company at the forefront of biotech innovation for over 40 years.Kat Vesce (00:28):Erica has a unique background transitioning from a PhD in immunology and a product development into the world of marketing, bringing a scientific perspective to how Genentech connects with global healthcare providers and patients.Ilyse Liffreing (00:41):We'll dive into how that background informs her approach to marketing, the game changing campaign she's led, and how the biotech industry is evolving to embrace more creative, emotionally driven storytelling.Kat Vesce (00:54):Plus Erica will share her perspective on how women in STEM can break barriers and what the future of healthcare marketing holds. Let's get started.Ilyse Liffreing (01:01):So Erica, thanks for being here at South by Southwest. Thanks for having me. Of course. So you have a unique background for a CMO growing part of your career on the product development side of biotech. After earning your PhD from Stanford Medical School, what drew you to the marketing side of biotech and why don't we see more medical students transition into heading up marketing departments?Erica Taylor (01:25):Yeah, I sometimes think that I have the habit of just showing up in places I'm not supposed to be, and so I certainly didn't go into my studies in immunology with the idea that I was going to end up in marketing. I would've never have thought that that would be the case. It really sort of became apparent to me that I was very much interested in the intersection of business and science when I was nearing the end of my graduate program, but I wasn't really sure how to do that or how to get there. So I explored a lot and I often share when I do development conversations with folks in the industry that I've probably not gotten more jobs than I've gotten in my life trying to figure out how to be in these other spaces. But for me, the journey really started in consulting.(02:07):I was in management consulting for biotech and pharma industry, and that is what led me to Genentech. And at my career there I have had roles in analytics and in sales, and it was probably my time in sales that really got me interested in marketing. And so I was able to sort of land a role in marketing and to do so at a company that innovates on science. I think they were able to sort of see, okay, she maybe doesn't have a background in marketing, but she understands the science, she understands how to communicate it and what actually moves markets when you're in the sales field.Ilyse Liffreing (02:38):How has that background informed your approach as a CMO? Why is that scientific medical knowledge and maybe even sales knowledge so valuable?Erica Taylor (02:48):Yeah, I think one of the things that was a bit of an aha for me in my sales role was I'll say one of the most professionally transformative experiences I had, which is code for saying it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And you learn a lot about what actually motivates people in the decisions that they make. And marketing is really focused on influencing a decision that people make and you realize even though I have a background in science and people very much need to understand why they're making the decision they're making. If you're a provider making a prescribing decision or a patient choosing between options for medicines available to you, you need to understand the why of that. But really there has to be some kind of emotional pull there. And I was really fascinated with that because I sort of come from a very cerebral training of like, well, we've got this data and here are the patients for which benefit the most, and so therefore this is the natural conclusion of the decision you would make. In fact, it's far more complex than that and it's that complexity of human behavior that I got really interested in as I grew in the marketing organization. So I try to bring both the left and right brain such as it were to that thinking.Kat Vesce (03:53):As the best marketers do. We ask everyone this question, I want to go a little bit deeper. Is there a specific moment that changed the game for you as a marketer? Tell us your most defining career moment or pivot to date and what the obstacles were there.Erica Taylor (04:10):Yeah, I could probably name a few. I get the most depth in moments and insights when I actually get to interact with patients and with providers and sort of understand deeply their experiences. And one of the ahas that I got actually both in my sales and then later in my marketing role is that yes, Genentech, you guys have been trailblazing and biotech and you have been innovating, but the data is so complex even though I'm trained in this field with the patient loads that I see every day, I don't have time and you guys don't make it simple for us. And so the aha there is like, okay, then marketing campaigns have to really focus on taking very complex science, which I feel fortunate to understand, but boil it down to something that's very simple, that's very memorable. And the same for patients. Very often when I'm in conversations with providers, I have the patient in mind when I'm thinking about how I would want this medicine explained to me, and that is how I explain it to the provider thinking maybe if a couple of my phrasing or words sort of land, well then that's what gets repeated to the patient so that they understand the choices that they have before them.Kat Vesce (05:17):I love that. And as a biotech company now over 40 years old, how would you say your approach to campaign strategy differs from typical healthcare campaigns?Erica Taylor (05:25):Yeah, well for one,Kat Vesce (05:26):A little bit of that patient in mind.Erica Taylor (05:28):Yeah, the patient for sure in mind. And one of the things that I'm very happy to spearhead as the chief marketing officer is really thinking about how do we make that more and more personal? It's not the patient, it is the patient that may be a single parent that lives 45 minutes from their local healthcare system. How do I speak to that patient just as much as I speak to the patient that has a high powered career and really doesn't have the time to focus on themselves and needs something to be quick and convenient? And so really the opportunity before us is to figure out how to become more nuanced, relevant and personalized when we tell the stories of our medicines. What I love about Genentech and our ability to do that is we've always been focused on two things, patience and science. And as long as we keep those two centered in everything that we do, I think we're able to kind of meet that mark.(06:14):Maybe the other thing I'll add, because the idea of speaking in personalized ways is not new. It's not rocket science, it's not even the more complex things that we do, but the technology and the capabilities that exist maybe outside of healthcare are now being applied in our space. And so very excited about what things like generative AI can do for us and really being able to personalize our stories around our medicines and our development. But at scale, we market over 40 medicines, and so it's great to do this in one or two places, but imagine doing that across the full breadth of our portfolio.Kat Vesce (06:47):And I imagine that 40 medications or medicines times however many profiles fit the many faces of patients.Erica Taylor (06:57):Exactly.Kat Vesce (06:58):Yeah, you really need some automation there.Erica Taylor (07:00):Absolutely. The scale of the problem is impossible, and unless I'm getting sort of a complete blank check to build all the resources that I need, we've got to find ways to be more efficient with that.Ilyse Liffreing (07:09):So that has really got me thinking because as much as the customer is number one and everything, but you also have to speak to the provider and they're the ones who are going to be really selling your medicine to the patient themselves. How do you solve, I guess, for your need to resonate with both the customer provider and then who would you consider highest priority in those campaigns?Erica Taylor (07:34):No, it's a really, really great question. One of the things that I love about the healthcare space is that your decision maker and your end user are almost never the same person. And that's not totally unique. It's uncommon. But you could imagine parents buying baby formula are also decision makers, but generally not. And users, unless you were like me and got desperate and ran out of half and half and put baby formula in, coffee works great. Extra nutrients. Exactly. Yeah, life hack. So it's not totally unique, but you have to kind of speak to two audiences. So because of the breadth of our portfolio, we really do think about this disease state by disease state. So there are some disease states where really the provider is the driving decision maker. Examples of this can be if you're having a stroke and you're in the hospital, you're probably not deciding between which medications are right for now, you're really driven by the provider's decision maker.(08:31):You can think about that in some of our later line cancer portfolios. When you're in your past, your first two lines of treatment, you're really going to be relying on your provider to understand what are the next, so in those cases, we tend to focus more on the provider and the prescribing decision maker. There are other parts of our portfolio where it's really very much patient driven. We have a medicine that treats food allergy, and that really then tends to involve in some cases, adolescents, their parents. And so we really need to elevate their voices when we're thinking about how we make sure they have the right information. So it really can span the gamut, and it's about taking a specific view of that particular disease state and how decision-making is made.Ilyse Liffreing (09:09):That's amazing. Now the biotech category is not known for being exactly sexy when it comes to creative marketing. It's bogged down with side effects and similar storylines usually. How are you guys moving the needle in terms of creating those powerful maybe storytelling campaigns?Erica Taylor (09:30):Yeah, I mean, we are a regulated industry and I'll state first. It's actually really important that we give that information. Any medicine that anyone is going to take, you have to weigh the benefits and the risks, and it is on us to communicate that fairly. And so I very much stand behind that. As a scientist, we really have to do that, but that can also make it really hard to know what's what we're trying to do this. So for me, I always try to root in the emotion and what I tell my teams all the time at the end of everything we do is someone who is sick and scared and how do we really tap into that? What do they need in that moment of diagnosis? What do they need in that moment when they're a week out from treatment and they're not really sure if what they're experiencing is normal?(10:14):Really kind of capturing those moments along the patient's journey. And similarly for the provider's journey, if I were to be oversimplified providers saying 15, 20 patients a day, how do we find ways to make their challenging lives as easy as possible, as simple as possible? And so we kind of think of that almost in two tracks. Some of the best creative that I see really speaks to that emotion. We did a campaign in our ophthalmology franchise last year called A Beautiful Site, which really chronicles a parent watching their child go through the education and then that parent one day becoming a patient. And it's really a motive. We actually don't talk a ton about the medicine itself, but more the experience of what it's like when you're struggling with your eyesight and it's gotten a lot of traction just by speaking to that lived experience.Kat Vesce (11:03):We're going to shift the conversation and zoom out a little bit.Erica Taylor (11:05):Okay.Kat Vesce (11:05):Though biotech is not new by any means, the category was catapulted into the spotlight in mainstream media during the height of COVID-19 something very intimately a thing or two. Yes. Yeah. Gilead at the time, you saw this firsthand with your previous role. And tell us a little bit about that experience. What do you think has changed for the industry as a whole since then?Erica Taylor (11:27):Oh wow. So many things. I had so many reactions kind of experiencing as we all did. The sort of the Covid Ovid 19 crisis, the first among them is that science really became front and center. And as a scientist, I get excited, finally, we're getting the credit we deserve, but so much about it was what I understand is science. Science is slow and painstaking. It's a step forward, it's a step to the right, it's a step back. It's two steps forward. That is how science happens. The lay public for the most part just sees it at the end. And so you get to tell this story, but that's not actually how it went down. Think about your vaccines for things like polio. We weren't following the day to day of that. We just had it. And we go, great. That's wonderful science. So when looking through the vaccine development for Covid, we're kind of watching day by day, is it six feet?(12:17):What kind of mask? How do I do this? And so we got, I think people lost trust in science and that really was heartbreaking because that's actually how it is. And for me it's the resilience of the people that continue to pursue when you get up and the thing you thought was going to work didn't work today, and you get up tomorrow and go do it. And we were able to break through in that way. That's the one thing on the science side, on the marketing side, we now know names of biotech companies. No one generally does know that I get true. My branded medication, I get this branded, that branded medication. Now the names of the companies that produced the vaccines, you would go in and say, I want the Moderna one or the Pfizer one. That has never really happened before in our industry.(13:03):And we've had to go from being a sort of what I'll call a house of brands, the branded medication, to really thinking about, well, what is the worth in branding the house, the Genentechs of the world? We're actively thinking about how we do that, especially as we come to our 50th anniversary as a company next year. So I know there's a lot of activity and thinking, how do we strategically do this that is authentic to who we are as an organization and elevates all of the work that we do, all of the scientists that pursue day in and day out, all of the patients that we've been able to help improve the lives of.Kat Vesce (13:39):So in a world that we've been talking about has changed so much since Covid. Absolutely. People also expect more from companies than ever before. How do you align your corporate positioning with Genentech, with your creative output?Erica Taylor (13:51):Yeah. I think to me this is about relevance and authenticity. I think there's so much content in your life in and out of healthcare to consume, and I think people are far more discerning of what feels authentic to them, what feels true, what feels pandered to right today is International Women's Day. There's lots of celebrations around Women's Day. Not everyone has been consistent about really centering women and thinking about what are the things that women could benefit from and could use, I think, and the women walking around here today, they know the difference. And so I think for us, the onus is being true to who we are, being authentic, really, and as relevant as we can. And I think about that just sort of from the broader Genentech, but also how do we think about this product by product? What is the authentic experiences and where do we show up really matters? One of the things that I tell my teams all the time, I'm like, we'd say the word patient. They are people, which sounds obvious, but you can easily lose sight of the fact that the fact that someone is a patient is probably in the bottom five of the top 100 things they like about their life. So you want to be there when needed and the hell out of their lives when not. Right. And so how do we thread that line appropriately,Ilyse Liffreing (15:13):Right? Yeah,Erica Taylor (15:14):It's hard. It's hard. It's hard.Ilyse Liffreing (15:16):You could argue it's harder than your average CPG brandErica Taylor (15:19):ForIlyse Liffreing (15:19):Instance.Erica Taylor (15:20):Absolutely.Ilyse Liffreing (15:21):Absolutely.Erica Taylor (15:22):So it keeps it interesting for sureIlyse Liffreing (15:23):Yeah. Now, I know we kind of talked about this a little bit, but I wanted to zoom out here a little bit because of this trend, it seems like it's a trend anyway, and I'm curious what you think, but during the Super Bowl, there were stronger examples of creative lead pharma and biotech ads competing against the typical ads you would see during the Super Bowl usually. What do you think about this? Is that where we're moving as an industry?Erica Taylor (15:51):I think it's interesting. I feel like I'm a student of commercials. I actually personally love football, so I consume every second of the Super Bowl bowls for the game and then the ads that show. I think it's interesting and I think it's a space worth exploring as an industry. And I think we've seen, there's a Pfizer ad that was released this year. I think they did one last year as well. I think we're still trying to figure out how to land the mark. And Super Bowl is an interesting venue to do that. Most people don't want to see a drug commercial. They're eating nachos, they're watching a game, they're maybe cheering on a team, they're waiting for the halftime show, whatever. But how do you land in a space that is supposed to be celebratory in light with something that's relevant and important? I think it's worth exploring personally. I'm sort of like, let's see where there might be a relevant kind of meeting of the moment. And it might be specific to just that year, right? Or just this particular thing that we have in our portfolio that's innovative that we want to make sure people know about.(16:54):I don't know that I'd paint a brush and do it everywhere for all things personally, a hundredKat Vesce (16:58):Percent. ButErica Taylor (16:59):I'm sure there's probably other marketers on this listening here that'll say, no, you should be pushing. And I'm curious, sort of very curious about where this could go and interested to see,Ilyse Liffreing (17:10):Since we're at South by Southwest and this is International Women's Day, I'd love to get your take on some of these female focused questions. Sure. So first of all, what inspired you to pursue a career in marketing and how has your journey been as a woman in the industry? I know with your strong STEM background especially, do you feel like there's still a much needed boost in how women pursue stem?Erica Taylor (17:34):Well, I am particularly passionate about STEM fields and as a self-proclaimed and bonafide nerd, I think the more in which ways in which we can celebrate that the better. I think it is interesting. We've seen increasing percentages of women pursuing STEM careers, which I applaud. It's not even the painted, I think more in medicine and healthcare related fields, I think there's still more gains to be had in fields like engineering and computer science. And one of the things that are very critical if we want to truly unlock things like artificial intelligence, I think there's more to do there. But I feel very much the, I feel like I'm coming behind women that have gone before and have really blazed trails, and I feel the same responsibility to make sure that whatever trail someone believes I've blazed or not is easier for whoever comes behind me. And I feel a deep obligation that I spend a good amount of my time mentoring and developing everyone, not just women, but folks that are interested in, as I call it, being in places you're not supposed to be. I think it just makes for a an interesting career path and journey. And I don't know what I'll do in the future. I still dunno what I want to do when I grow up. I'm having a great time now. And so I look to mentors that help see, oh, okay, that's how you did that.Kat Vesce (18:59):Can we better support women in leadership roles? You mentioned mentorship. What are some other ways you're leaning into that?Erica Taylor (19:06):Yeah, I think it can come up in both direct ways, like mentorship. I think those programs benefit everyone. And both I learned from them and I learn a lot about some of the challenges that people face in their careers now. I think there's subtle ways. One of, I think the most powerful things that we can do is as leaders show up honestly and authentically and not be afraid of showing moments of vulnerability. And I think it humanizes you. I had an experience last year where my husband got very, very ill and I needed to have a pretty major surgery. He's doing great now. But sort of living through that and thinking about how do I do the job? I've asked, I've been asked to do, but show up authentically with my team and let them know, Hey, I've got kind of a lot going on at home right now and I don't even know that I navigated that line well. But more recently actually got up on stage in front of my full organization and kind of shared the story. And I did it in the context of marketing and what it meant to have healthcare providers sort give me exactly what I need in the moment to help support him through this.Kat Vesce (20:22):What a full circle moment.Erica Taylor (20:24):It was somewhat of a spontaneous decision, but I think as certainly women leaders as leaders, your podcasters don't know this, but I'm a woman of color, so a lot of things that are not typical about where I show up in spaces. And the more that I can make it that I'm still human, I'm still me, and I go through life the same way you do, you never know what people are walking around with kind of position. I think that helps invite others to say, okay, maybe I didn't get a PhD. Maybe I don't have these things, but I am as human as she is and maybe I can make it there too. I think there's value in that, even though I was literally shaking in my boots to tell that story to one stage, that's a hard thing to do. And fighting to keep my composure and be as authentic as I could. Well,Kat Vesce (21:13):That's the most humanErica Taylor (21:14):Response ever. Yeah.Kat Vesce (21:15):So inspiring. What advice would you give to the next generation of marketing leaders, including we talked about not just young women, but everyone looking to grow into that leadership role?Erica Taylor (21:29):Yeah, I usually give, and there's a couple schools of thought on this, so this is sort of Erica's school of thought on this, right? I think that you have to strike this balance between having depth of knowledge but getting breadth of experience. And it's a really hard one to thread, especially if you're doing something you love. You just want to do more and more and more and more. And there may be great growth paths to be had in that. But a lot of the advice that I give to folks, it's like every time you think about pursuing another role, I am going to apply for this role. It's a promotion, it's a lateral, it think two moves ahead. Does it unlock more options for you? And be very aware, my more senior leaders, I'm like, you have to understand you're at a point in your seniority where making lateral moves gets harder.(22:12):And so you want to make them in your earlier points in your career when you can. Because one, there's just more of those roles. I'm a vice president, there's not a lot of us at Genentech. And so if I want to move laterally, I have fewer options. I have to be that much more thoughtful about it. But I feel like I come at this with the space of a more breadth of experience, but you still got to know the job. So you kind of have to navigate this sort of, as I call it, the difference between scuba and snorkel. If you can scuba dive and go deep, understand that that has ramifications for your career development. If you only snorkel, also ramifications for your career development. And then the other piece of advice I give folks is try not to plan more than a couple of years ahead because 10 years from now, you're going to do a job that doesn't exist today.(22:59):So I'm first CMO, so I couldn't have won this job. It didn't exist until three years ago, right? Plan for a couple of years at a time. And if you're weighing a couple of options that are otherwise equal to you go with the team you'd rather have more fun with, go with the team. You want to come hang out in Austin, Texas with, right? And you're never going to go wrong. Working on teams that you enjoy with each other. We have a really great and strong culture at Genentech, and I'm always like, if you see a leader you want to go work with, find a way to get on that person's team. So those are usually the kinds of advice I give to everyone. And then maybe the other, and this is more, I'm of a certain age wouldn'tKat Vesce (23:41):Know it. PodcastersErica Taylor (23:43):Of a certain age worry a lot less, and someone gave me this advice, what am I going to do? How am I going to get that job? Blah, blah, blah. You've got to work a long time. Most if you're lucky, and many people do, and so worry a lot less about what's going to happen in a decade, worry a lot less about that person that's your peer that just got that promotion and they're going to go farther than you. Career path is their own and everything happens kind of exactly as it should. And so I try really hard to, especially for folks that I get the sort of fresh from business school and they're like, I've got to be CEO in five years. And I'm like, I don't dunno. Let's worry a little less about the timing and worry much more about the kinds of experiences you get to have along the way, what you get to learn and who you get to meet.Kat Vesce (24:37):Well,Erica Taylor (24:37):Erica, thank youKat Vesce (24:38):So much and thanks for your vulnerability and sharing those tidbits and stories. I so appreciate this time. I know we're both leaving really inspired soErica Taylor (24:46):Much. Thank you. I'm so happy to do this. I appreciate the invite. I hope it's helpful for your listeners. Yeah, no, it great. I'm sure it will be. Thank you so much. Thanks.Kat Vesce (24:55):Wow. I am blown away. I am walking away from that conversation with Erica Taylor. So inspired. I don't know about you.Ilyse Liffreing (25:02):Oh my gosh, yes. I love how vulnerable she was about talking about her husband, and not only to, I mean us, but to her whole company. And it takes a very brave and smart woman to be able to be open like that.Kat Vesce (25:17):And also what a full circle moment. I mean to be the CMO of a company that is marketing, I think she said 40 different medications, and then to be on the receiving end of that and navigating as your own family is going through the fear and intensity of recovering from an ailment.Ilyse Liffreing (25:40):As she said, everybody has their own stuff they're going through.Kat Vesce (25:43):Yeah. Yeah. That was really inspiring. I also just loved how she went into the tension that she faces as a marketer, which I can't think of any other category that has this same predicament of wanting to stay relevant and be top of mind for the inpatient or the provider, but also not wanting to be there all the time, and to be able to dip in and out when needed. Because ultimately her end goal she was saying was to keep people healthy. And so I think that's a really refreshing take, especially hearing it from a biotech company like Genentech, that you could hear horror stories about companies being incentivized to keep people sick. And I just loved that as a marketer. She's thinking through it from a place of just being authentic to getting people healthyIlyse Liffreing (26:35):Completely. And she also mentioned in a world like Post Covid, everybody now has their eyes on those companies, which is huge because pre covid, nobody knew what shots you were getting from whom. And now it's like, what shot did you get? The Pfizer or the Moderna.Kat Vesce (26:55):Yeah. And there was even some kind of ranking around them at one point. Yeah, totally. So yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting how biotech and pharma are now getting into the brand marketing side of the house. And I liked her answer that she's trepidatious about how and when to deploy that. So overall, just super inspiring conversation. I'm walking away just beaming talking to all these amazing women. That's wonderful. And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

PNC Bank Chief Marketing Officer Jenn Garbach joins The Current Podcast at SXSW as part of International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month. Garbach shares insights on the success of the bank’s Brilliantly Boring campaign and reflects on her journey in marketing, tackling imposter syndrome, and balancing career growth with family life. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Kat Vesce (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce.Ilyse Liffreing (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're highlighting powerhouse women in marketing who are making an impact in theirKat Vesce (00:17):Industries. For this episode, we're thrilled to be joined by Jenn Garbach, chief marketing officer at PNC Bank, where she's redefining how 160 year old financial institution connects with modern consumers.Ilyse Liffreing (00:28):Jenn and her team launched brilliantly Boring, a campaign that leans into humor, trust, and authenticity.Kat Vesce (00:34):We'll dive into the strategy behind the campaign, the results that made it a game changer, and how PNC is balancing modernization with legacy in an industry built on tradition.Ilyse Liffreing (00:44):Plus, we'll discuss Jenn's insights on leadership and empowering women in the industry. Let's get started. So Jenn, it's wonderful for you to join us today at our studio at the Female Quotient Lounge during South by Southwest.Jenn Garbach (01:00):Thank you so much for having me. Yay.Ilyse Liffreing (01:02):So last July, PNC Bank came up with the campaign brilliantly boring. It's the first work with your new agency of record, Arnold Worldwide. Why is this campaign a game changer for the 160 year old brand?Jenn Garbach (01:15):Well, nothing infuses life and vigor into a brand like putting the word boring into it, but this has been a really fun opportunity for us to help match the growth trajectory of the business by rethinking the way we're telling the story about PNC in the marketplace. And so brilliantly boring has really been about taking that step forward, defining our brand in a way that brings distinction resonance in a very, very crowded and commoditized financial services market and is really authentic to who we are as an organization at PNC. Amazing.Ilyse Liffreing (01:48):And why lean into the word boring by any chance? The term is not, I guess, usually one you would associate with a creative campaign.Jenn Garbach (01:55):It isn't, but it works so well for us. And I think the single biggest thing is boring is very authentic to who PNC is. And give me a moment. Because what we're really proud of is redefining what boring means. Boring doesn't mean old stuck in our ways. What we're redefining boring as is steady, reliable, and trustworthy. And why that's really important to us is that we know financial services has seen as an industry has seen its ups and downs, not just recently, but frankly over time. And so the ability to signal to our customers that we are a bank that is 160 years old and that we have been steady and reliable along the way is really important. And how are you guys telling a story across Lakewood channels? We're across all mass channels right now, so you'll see us on tv, online, video, social media, and then pulling increasingly through our lower funnel and direct marketing. So that's been another fun part of bringing brilliantly boring to life in all aspects of PNCs marketing.Kat Vesce (02:53):I love that reframe too. And reclaiming the word boring to make it something more meaningful and more related to steadiness ofJenn Garbach (03:00):I think that's right. And what we hear in the marketplace too is while there's a lot of pressure to keep up in the marketplace, and we are certainly innovating and bringing new products, new technology to market, when you do the consumer research, you do not hear people saying, you know what I want from my bank? A really flashy forward bank that is doing all of these technological things. People want their money to be there when they need it. They're looking for a steady, reliable partner. And frankly, they're not thinking about financial services all the time, but when they need their money, they want to know it's there and they have access to it. And that's at the nexus of redefining brilliantly boring is we'll do all the boring stuff behind the scenes so that you can live the brilliant life that you want. You can be the brilliant business owner and run your business the way that you want.Kat Vesce (03:46):I love that. Less risks, less flash, more reliability.Jenn Garbach (03:49):That's right.Kat Vesce (03:50):So it seems like PNC Bank has not only undertaken a rehaul in terms of messaging, but a technical one as well. How has your previous experience as the head of global marketing, planning, operations and transformation at PayPal helped steer your strategy in reaching today's consumers for PNC Bank?Jenn Garbach (04:06):I'm going to lean into the campaign for a second and bear with me on this one. Part of the content extension of Brilliantly Boring is our boring before brilliance content series. And so we work with sports athletes like Scott Dixon, who's an indie car racer, or Steve Stricker who's a PGA golfer, and tell the story about all the boring, repetitive, seemingly mundane aspects of their training routines that show up in these moments of brilliance, whether it's on the racetrack, on the course. And that really sits behind when I think about not only my experience, but what we are doing at PNC, which is operational excellence is the foundation of what leads to brilliance of how we go to market and how we're able to connect and resonate with customers. So I think a bunch of that experience before leading through many different forms of transformation is making sure that we don't ignore the boring basics, those steady, reliable aspects of making sure we have process technology capabilities that we're training the team and helping set them up to take advantage of all of those new capabilities. And then how that shows up is us really resonating in a different way through campaigns like brilliantly boring, but also in our one-to-one marketing, our personalization efforts and really bringing value and resonance to the customers that we're working with.Kat Vesce (05:26):And let's shift into the results of this campaign. How is brilliantly boring performing? Is it reaching the right audience? Are you hitting everything that you set out to do with it? Any surprising results?Jenn Garbach (05:37):Yeah, we are really, really excited. So, so far we are firing in all dimensions right now by the numbers. Our return on ad spend is up 12% compared to prior campaigns. Our brand lift is up with statistically significant increase, which as we are on a growth trajectory as bank, moving from this super regional tier and competing increasingly with the big national banks signaling that we are a big national bank, someone that consumers can trust, seeing lift in all of those metrics is really important and something that we were looking for. And I think the one that's really fun and gives us some real time feedback is we have the highest positive social sentiment that we have ever had in our history of recording that. And that's really showing the engagement and the fun and the humor shining through with this campaign and how, I mean, you guys know, social is a channel that is very easy for folks to come in with negative thoughts or complaints. And so the idea that we're able to create really positive engagement is a nice feedback loop and response for us right now.Ilyse Liffreing (06:42):And now I understand that the campaign not only moved the needle in terms of reaching customers, but also internally kind of working as a way to center your corporate PNC around guideposts. Can you explain why?Jenn Garbach (06:58):I think having a campaign like this has done a bunch of really great things for us. It's been a culture carrier and in some ways defining our brand in this way is giving folks a way to see themselves and the work that they do. You don't have to be in marketing to be a part of brilliantly boring. You can be a credit underwriter, you can be in operations, you can be in the frontline working in the care center in a branch and really live and embody that spirit of brilliantly boring. It's also just help us give a story internally. So there's this mirror image of what we're trying to do with new breakthrough storytelling externally, but that same thing applies internally. One of the things I love most is hearing folks play back, Hey, for the first time I'm watching our new TV ads and it feels like we're putting PNC on stage with those other big banks that I'm used to seeing other banks, other companies show up like this. And it's a source of pride for folks to be able to see themselves. So really, really pleased that it is carrying that torch for us internally. And then it helps us connect further with the brand is not just the campaign. The brand is the culmination of all of our product services and experiences. And so having folks feel that connected is really impactful.Ilyse Liffreing (08:11):Now I want to take a moment and kind of see the big picture here because you mentioned before that we're living in a time of high distrust of banks. Now how does this campaign and then perhaps any future ones you're working on, what does it do to calm those consumers fears in this area? Where is this fear coming from originally? I guess really? Where does the responsibility of the marketer come in here?Jenn Garbach (08:40):I think it's being honest and really assessing the marketplace landscape that we're operating in today. Right. And while I may not be proud of it, it's fairly evident to be able to say that financial services has not exactly been a beloved industry to folks over the past 20 years. And again, you can look at bank failures at the beginning of last year, you can look back to 2008, there's this repeated history. But if you go back even further, kind of citing that 160 year history, there was a time when banking was a mainstay of the community, right? Truly like a pillar on every main street in the community as that steady, reliable place. And so this is both coming from consumer feedback saying we are looking for that steady, reliable partner, and also we're looking for an empathetic partner. And that is a place that in our history at PNC, we have always shined through as a partner that builds relationships with our customers and with our clients. And so I think brilliantly boring is a way for us to really help acknowledge some of that mistrust in the industry and signal that we have been steady and reliable this whole time. And that's in fact a differentiator in a time where things can be very flashy fast, it's a lot changing in the financial environment overall, and it's actually a differentiator for usKat Vesce (10:04):Creating that bit of fomo too. I bet. For people who may be left and want to come back.Jenn Garbach (10:08):That's right.Kat Vesce (10:10):With such a legacy brand like PNC Bank, how do you balance what to carry into the future and what to refresh?Jenn Garbach (10:16):It's a great question. I think about in any time of transition, and I'll define us in transition as just in growth mode, really being thoughtful about what you keep and what you leave behind. And I mentioned earlier that notion of we have always been a relationship based organization that is something that is so near and dear to our hearts culturally and is a huge part of our success recipe. So we are going to keep and hold that precious and showcase that frankly as part of the brand, what we're going to leave behind and be willing to move on from is growing from a bank that used to be a regional based in Pittsburgh and now operating at national scale. We've got to be ready to leave behind some of the processes, some of the things that we operated that way because it served us back in the day and now we need to try new things. That includes being open to a bold new brand platform, like brilliantly boring. So I think it's a nice signal of the willingness to embrace some new things that we never would've seen on our horizon in the past, but also keep true to the foundational parts of our culture, the ways of working that are really core to our success.Kat Vesce (11:22):We're going to pivot into some rapid fire q and a and celebration of International Women's Day and Women's Month. So focusing on you as a female marketing leader, what has been your biggest challenge?Jenn Garbach (11:37):I was thinking about this question and I think one, as a marketing leader, I think my biggest challenge has been being able to balance the art and science of marketing. And as a woman leader, it's been the ability to constantly my personal and my professional expectations. And those end up bleeding together in these different intersections. And sometimes it ends up in the form of being one of few women at the table. But I do feel very lucky that I have worked for organizations that have really strong advocacy and where I do have other women at the table. But I would say balancing that element of the function that it can sometimes be written off as just creative and there's lots of science and data behind how we go to market. And then also the tension of I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I'm a friend, I have all these other dimensions and constantly recalibrating those expectations and how those play in with my aspirations and my leadership growth journey.Kat Vesce (12:37):Have you cracked the code because as also a mom and a marketer and trying to balance career growth and that trajectory as well as wanting to be there for your kids and wanting to be a good spouse and wanting to be a great friend? I feel the same things you're talking about. Wondering if you have any adviceJenn Garbach (12:58):On that. I don't know that I can claim to have cracked the code, but the thing that has helped me is probably twofold. It's one thinking about you have these different pillars of my life and I named some of them. It's my family, it's my career, it's my friends, it's my health. And it is seldom that all of those pillars are perfectly in place at any given time. And the second part is realizing that it is, I use that phrase recalibration intentionally. It's I need to recalibrate my own expectations of I can't give a hundred percent energy to all of those aspects at all times. And so being really honest with myself of I'm in a surge mode career, which might mean I'm pulling back on family and sometimes that's hard to acknowledge, but having that conversation with my family and rebalancing is really important. So that I think it's keeping at forefront and realizing it's not actually a point of arrival. It's a constant process.Ilyse Liffreing (13:56):Now, a common qualm of women I guess is that they experience imposter syndrome being in any, this is across multiple industries, of course, but in marketing, I feel like it's true. Have you experienced imposter syndrome in your career? And if so, I guess how did you push past it?Jenn Garbach (14:15):Absolutely. That feeling of being called into the principal's office when you get an email or a phone call from a senior leader or that feeling of, oh my gosh, this is the time they're going to figure out, I have no idea what I'm doing. I do think I have made significant growth personally in helping to manage that. And one of the things that's been really helpful is I've worked with a number of different coaches and this idea of what is the talk track that's in my head versus what is the reality of the feedback signals around me? And I actually had a leader that I worked with previously who played this back really directly to me when I was sharing very openly about some of that challenge of feeling like I was underperforming. And he looked at me and said, Jenn, is that story in your head? What feedback are you actually getting? Who has told you that besides yourself? And so that's something, again, try to keep in the forefront of my mind of is that a narrative I'm building for myself and does that match the feedback that I'm getting around me? And if it's disconnected, that might be a signal of it's just up in my head when all the other kind of signals are coming back being like, no,(15:26):You're right in there. Keep Going.Ilyse Liffreing (15:28):And do you think women in marketing face different expectations or leadership challenges than their male counterparts? Kind of a tricky one. How do you navigate those?Jenn Garbach (15:38):Yeah. One of the dynamics that I'm always cognizant of is probably more related to, again, marketing as a function. And I think because marketing is not always well understood broadly at an organization and can get reduced to the idea of it's producing creative, it can play into stereotypes about women and women workers. And so I think it's about, for me at least, it's been about building my leadership brand as a transformational leader and then grounding that in a broad general management skillset and really taking a data-driven approach to marketing to help combat that. There are lots of fun, creative parts of my job, but there's also a science and a math behind it and creating that accountability for myself and how I interact with my business partners to show outcomes. So that is something that I definitely think exists broadly. And I have tried to just balance for myself by thinking about what is that leadership brand for myself and what is my leadership philosophy in terms of leading a marketing organizationKat Vesce (16:39):As more women take on executive roles, what shifts do you hope to see in the way marketing organizations are structured and led?Jenn Garbach (16:47):I don't know if I have a great answer to how I want to see them structured and led. I think I just want to see more women in the leadership roles in the seats. I think I don't want to be reductive to how women lead. I think it's just the idea of the more different brains we have at the table, the broader our thinking, the better our collaboration. And so I think it's about getting more folks into the seats and finding out what that actually looks like.Kat Vesce (17:16):And not even gender. No, but not even gender specific. That could mean anyone. I think just diversity of thought is so important. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. Well, Jenn, thank you so much for the time. Thank you so much. We really enjoyed this.Jenn Garbach (17:26):Thank you for having me. This has been fun.Kat Vesce (17:27):Second, great. Wow. Another stellar conversation today. I'm just walking away so inspired. I really loved how PNC Bank and Jenn Garba have reclaimed the word boring, obviously. It's a main point of, it's so fun. It's so fun and a great way to reframe it into meaning something that is steady, something that is reliable. Taking that tradition of what PNC bank stands for and meeting the needs of what their customers told them they're looking for in a modern bank is just so cool. And really what a way to transition the brand.Ilyse Liffreing (18:11):And for 160 year old legacy brand, that's hard to do. It's really balancing what they want to carry into the future and what they want to refresh. And I feel like Jenn was really good at describing exactly thatKat Vesce (18:26):And giving their internal employees like a battle cry or something to you really rally behind, which is so important. Especially as she mentioned, their services are going to, on the national scale, it feels like a campaign that can really service anyone in the country at any age who really, you don't want the flash and pizazz.(18:47):You want to be able to live that way maybe with your finances being in order, but you kind of need the steadiness of that.Ilyse Liffreing (18:54):It should be boring. It really should be boring, be easy and boring. I also liked how she dug into imposter syndrome because I feel like that's very prevalent as women in marketing. And it was very fascinating how she had a boss who was like, I think that's just a story playing out in your head. Nobody's telling you this. It'sKat Vesce (19:14):A good reminder to make sure that you're leveraging true feedback that's coming in and not creating your own story or perception. I think as women, we, and in general, marketers really strive to elevate the bar in everything they do, and I think it's important for everyone to remindIlyse Liffreing (19:38):Themselves, especially when you're battlingKat Vesce (19:41):Perception versus realityIlyse Liffreing (19:43):Handling everything like motherhood on top of,Kat Vesce (19:45):Oh, that was another favorite moment for me, I think. I was like, give me all the tips. Have you cracked the code? Does anyone crack the code?(19:56):Because I mean, whether you're, Nope, truth is nope. But I loved how she said you can't be a hundred percent in any one pillar. And beyond just being a mom, she talked about health, being a good friend, surging in your career, and managing when and how those surges come to fair.(20:13):Just really gave me a lot to think about. I need to do some adjustments in my own life to make sure I'm not trying to do adjustments.Ilyse Liffreing (20:21):Yeah, that's what biggest takeaway. We all need to do adjustments.Kat Vesce (20:25):Yeah. Yep. And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

Beyond Yoga Chief Marketing Officer Katie Babineau joins The Current Podcast on the ground at SXSW in honor of International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Ilyse Liffreing (00:00):I'm Kat Vesce. And I'm Ilyse Liffreing and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. In honor of International Women's Day and Women's Month, we're highlighting exceptional women of advertising at this year's South by Southwest.Kat Vesce (00:18):For this episode, we're thrilled to be joined by Katie Bau, the chief marketing Officer of Beyond Yoga, a brand that's redefining activewear with inclusivity, comfort, and community at its core.Ilyse Liffreing (00:28):That's right, Beyond yoga has been making waves in the industry, not just as a female founded brand, but as one that's rapidly expanding with a devoted customer base and a strong sense of purpose.Kat Vesce (00:39):Katie is approaching her one year anniversary as CMO and she's already led some game changing campaigns like Club Beyond a Full Funnel experiential activation in New York City that brought the brand to life in a whole new way.Ilyse Liffreing (00:51):We'll dive into that campaign and what's next for Beyond Yoga, including its approach to retail, men's expansion and content strategy, as well as Katie's journey as a woman in marketing.Kat Vesce (01:03):Katie, great to have you here. Thanks for joining us.Katie Babineau (01:06):Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here in Austin and great day to be here with you.Kat Vesce (01:12):Yeah. So I know we're approaching your one year anniversary as a CMO. Coming from a background largely in consumer tech, what drew you to this opportunity at Beyond Yoga?Katie Babineau (01:22):Well, I would say first and foremost, I was already a Beyond Yoga fan and customer and just fan of the brand. So when I had an opportunity to sit down with Nancy Green, our CEO I was very eager to learn more and I had come from a background in consumer tech, so I was very open at the time to making a pivot in my career and learning and growing about a new industry and apparel active wear to me was very interesting. I grew up as an athlete. Movement is so important to me as an individual and just love working in, I love the thought of working in an industry where I could pair both my professional and personal passion. And so Nancy and I met about a year ago. We hit it off, we talked a little bit about our philosophies and brand building where the business was going and it was just such a fit and so was really happy to move very quickly to make it happen.Kat Vesce (02:20):I love it. And tell me a bit about that philosophy. What's at the core of your marketing strategy for Beyond Yoga?Katie Babineau (02:27):Well, I've been there for about a year, so we've been building very, very quickly. But I will say that what I inherited is a very strong foundation. So part of the excitement in coming to this brand was looking at it through the lens of upholding the great legacy of a female founded brand that's still female led today. And knowing the fandom that the company and the brand has when I started and just scaling that we've got opportunity to broaden our reach and our audience. We hadn't really done the brand marketing that's needed to crack that right open. And so I was very excited to come in to learn a little bit more about the customer, a little bit more about our brand and our product. And so our opportunity is just to scale that love and that fandom. And so we're doing that now. We spent last year really redefining our brand position and strategy and just cracking that right open this year. As we look ahead,Ilyse Liffreing (03:30):I know you guys are a great example of why we're here and doing these podcast episodes to begin with International Women's Day and Women's Month on that strategy, are there any campaigns or moments that really changed the game for you as a marketer to this point in your first 11 months on the job?Katie Babineau (03:48):My upbringing as a marketer, I would say I've never considered myself a traditional marketer because I came up early in my career really as social was developing. And so I started my career in PR and really fell in love with social because of the way that the landscape was changing. And so my background in social pr, editorial and community building really has allowed me to think about the marketing mix a lot differently. And of course beyond what we need is more of a full funnel approach. So what we have done to build that foundation is think about how we bring community through the funnel, how we work with the community to totally shift our content strategy in paid advertising, how we think about community events as new customer acquisition tools. And so the campaign that comes to mind for us really is the New York City experience that we created last year, last October.(04:47):And the goal really was to show up in our number one market with a really delightful experience where people could take a step back from the chaos of the holidays, quickly approaching and really focus on mindfulness, on movement. We brought in some of the best wellness influencers and creators and instructors in the world and programmed for a week long in this incredible space around Union Square. And what we found was because we were able to think about engaging with community a bit differently through different types of content models and activations that really were rooted in value for the customer, we saw about a 50% new customer acquisition percentage. We sold product, so we generated revenue there. We don't have a brick and mortar store in New York, but it's our largest e-comm market. And so we were able to really drive lower funnel performance, but in a way that was deeply emotive and really connecting with our customers in new and different ways. So that comes to mind for me. Obviously we've got a lot planned this year as we key up to big important brand moments for us, so very excited to do more,Kat Vesce (06:03):But what a strong start out of the gate. I mean that was what, six months in on the jump pulled that off.Katie Babineau (06:07):We moved fast. I like to move fast, I think former athlete and me, I love a good pace. And coming from tech, I really loved tech because of the fast innovation and getting to connect with customers in new and different ways. And so I think coming in, I was so excited about the potential of the brand that we really just got to work. So it was fun.Ilyse Liffreing (06:29):And it seems like you hit your KPIs there, at least it generated a lot of interest in the brand and everything. Would you do it again? Are there any other key learnings from the experience?Katie Babineau (06:40):Absolutely. So the Collabion franchise had existed before I even got to the brand. It was a matter of pouring rocket fuel on it and pointing it in the right direction. So we host about one club beyond event every month. We're now doing one high impact a quarter. So we've got this emphasis on always on community building. We're getting a little bit tighter and more strategic in where we show up and which markets where we have retail locations, where we've got really incredible wholesale partnerships, studios that we're working with. So that's the focus now and today it's about continuing that hyperlocal love that we have and being able to show up in Austin in a really authentic way or Chicago where we are in a really authentic way. We're an LA built brand, but we're growing and scalingKat Vesce (07:37):Any surprising results from the large Union Square activation you want to talk about?Katie Babineau (07:43):The biggest surprise to me, I am all about managing expectations, especially as a new CMO within a brand who hadn't done a ton of brand marketing historically. So coming into this event, I was very clear on, hey, this is top of funnel. We are trying to drive brand lift and conversation and built some brand heat in a market that's really important for us. So here are the KPIs. We're going to look at conversation lift, we're going to look at our engagement percentages, we're going to look at virality of content, and those are the key performance indicators that we really should be focused on here for our investment. And knowing in the back of my mind that I've seen these sort of activations work full funnel in the past, like, okay, well, so secondary we're going to sell products so we'll generate revenue and secondary we will track new customers into the brand. So we will watch that. And I think I was just blown away by the such high percentage of new customer acquisition. It's like that's incredible as a secondary, but being able to level set expectations because big on for a campaign, what is the clear role that we're trying to achieve?Kat Vesce (08:56):So with all of this increase in customer acquisition on this campaign, how are you converting them into that lifelong fan or loyalty?Katie Babineau (09:06):Well, it's really interesting right now we've got such fandom among our loyal customer base. We know that if you know us, you really love us. There's deep love for the brand through high product quality. And our customers love the touch the feel of the product. So once you experience that, we see such high repeat purchase behavior. And so we believe we've got to focus on that new customer acquisition because once we get 'em into the door, it's a great place to be and they don't want to leave. So we're excited to continue to focus on lighting that up and bringing more people into the fold because we know we're going to deliver such a strong product experience, which really that's the retention piece. And so being able to continue to activate them is super important. As we look ahead,Ilyse Liffreing (10:01):What advice would you give to other marketers looking to build this within their brand ethos? The idea of community mindset and purpose that are all powerful drivers of brand retention and loyalty?Katie Babineau (10:15):I think the number one mistake that marketers can make right now is the misconception that brand and growth are separate. They have to work together and they can work together. And I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we believe that these are separate levers, right? So the reason why this campaign was so powerful was because we were able to leverage this full funnel and for our performance needs as well. We used a lot of the content in our lower funnel paid ads from, and we're actually seeing that our creator content is driving a much more efficient cost of acquisition. And so I think we can look at the way that we build the infrastructure a little bit differently and think about brand and growth really coming together to drive high impact.Ilyse Liffreing (11:10):The brand has been around for about 20 years now, which is amazing. It's your first store opened in 2022. How does the brand think about retail moving forward?Katie Babineau (11:21):Retail's a big opportunity for us. Our brand 20 years strong. We started really as a wholesale business, and so we built really strong partnerships across over 1200 different partners. You see us in Nordstrom, you see us in Equinox and studios across the country. And during the pandemic, obviously our.com business really thrived and continues to thrive today. As we look to the future, we believe retail is incredible opportunity for us to connect with customers deeply bring those insights back into our business. And so we are going to be opening many more stores. We are signed and announced on a Greenwich Village store opening early this summer. And then we will also open another store in Marin County this year as well. And so we will expand to nine stores this year for sure. We've definitely got more coming and so it's a really exciting time for us.Kat Vesce (12:22):What do you see as the biggest driver for beyond Yoga's next phase of growth?Katie Babineau (12:27):Product expansion is super exciting for us. So we historically have offered an incredible product in our space dive franchise, which is, and people usually buy it in a set of a legging and a crop tank. And we've been really sort of active wear based, but we've got so much opportunity in product expansion, lifestyle categories. Over the past year we've entered into new product categories like dresses that are fast growing for us, like these trouser pants that are incredible, that are fast growing for us. You look at fleece during the holidays, something we didn't have before, hugely a growth opportunity for us. So as we expand the product lineup, now we're bringing more people into the mix with more full funnel marketing and hopefully creating a bigger, better flywheel.Kat Vesce (13:21):And with that expansion, I know you speak to a lot of different generations, a lot of different types of audiences. How do you cater to that wide range of audiences both in marketing and in product?Katie Babineau (13:34):Yeah, it's really interesting and I love that we've got a multi-gender audience and even we see fast growing men's category for us too. So I think at the core, what we deliver is a really positive outlook on this active wear space. We really focus on bringing a little more levity and fun into the space, which can be a very serious space focused on performance and perfection. And we just want to offer an experience and a product that makes you feel really good and comfortable and really just focus on progress over perfection is sort of what we're all about. And we love that that brings in a diversity of customer base.Ilyse Liffreing (14:12):Amazing. So now let's get into our little rapid fire Q and A we have for you. Great. And these are all female focused questions because of International Women's Day. Tell us what inspired you to pursue a career in marketing and how has your journey been as a woman in this industry?Katie Babineau (14:30):People. I love the interaction with people that you get in marketing. I would also say just the diversity of what you do in marketing. It's so right brain, left brain that I really feel like it gives you an equal balance of creativity and science, which I love.Ilyse Liffreing (14:50):So Katie, how has your journey been as a woman in this industry so far?Katie Babineau (14:53):As a female in our industry, there is more pressure in some industries than others. I'll say my journey, especially coming up in tech and my experience had been being one of the only females in the room. And so I always felt an immense pressure even when I was young in my career, to develop my point of view and perspective and be able to speak up in the room in a way that would cut through. And I think being brought up in tech really trained me to do that in a way that was effective because you got to work so hard to cut through as a female if you're one of the only in the room. And so I felt a great duty to make sure that we were thinking about the female perspective. We were honoring at the time 50% of our customer base and even probably more than that for some of the companies that I was at.(15:50):And I took that on pretty early as something that was really important to me. Now, part of the reason I made this pivot into apparel and active wear was a false thought that I would be moving into an industry that was more female forward. I'm so happy that beyond Yoga's female founded, female led and really a majority of our business is female run, but our industry is still run by men, which I was so surprised to learn. And so I think every industry probably deals with it. And so being able to develop your perspective in the room is very important and being able to find the right partners, advocates and allies to help you build and develop that voice. I have a lot of incredible female and male mentors who have supported me along the way and you have to build your community because there's power in numbers and making sure that you've got the right people in your corner.Ilyse Liffreing (16:49):Amazing. And what would you say are those leadership qualities that really help you strive in the industry as a woman?Katie Babineau (16:58):I'm extremely collaborative and empathetic in my approach. And I think being especially early in my career, getting to bring people into a room and problem solve together and help people see each other's perspective is a bit of a superpower that I've had to develop as a female and early in my career, just finding value in being the connector, the strategic connector in the room I think has been very, very helpful. And sort of a secret weapon, if you will.Kat Vesce (17:31):Similar around that vein, what advice would you give to young women aspiring to make it to the next level in their career, to leadership roles? Ultimately within marketing?Katie Babineau (17:41):Two things I would say don't be afraid to take the risk and build your community because this was a big pivot in my career. For me, it was a big jump from tech industry to three new industries, which apparel, retail, e-commerce. And for me, I was very excited about the opportunity to learn. I think for some that might scary, intimidating, sometimes you really need to take a leap to understand either way, great, that was a great learning and I'm thriving, or that was a great learning and I don't love it and I need to go back. But don't be afraid to take risks. Careers are long hopefully and you can pivot and bob and weave and that's a beautiful thing. And the second is just building your community of people, of hype people, supporters that really can help you in tough times and high five you when things are going well because hopefully it is a long career and you've got some starts and pauses and in between and it makes it more fun to have people in your corner.Kat Vesce (18:49):A former leader of ours used to call that your personal board of directors, soKatie Babineau (18:52):I love that. Yeah, that's great.Kat Vesce (18:53):Do you think marketing today is authentically representing and empowering women?Katie Babineau (18:58):I've seen a lot of progressive change in our industry. I think just and genuine excitement to represent more diverse voices. There's a lot of work that needs to be done. I don't think marketing is the problem, I'll just say that, but I do. Just being deeply involved in this community, all of the marketing leaders that I know want to do the right thing, most of them want to do the right thing. And so I think we've got incredible people who are creative leaders who want to think and care really deeply about making sure that in the position that we're in and the storytelling that we get to do every day, that we really represent that the customer well. And so I look at a couple of brands who I love who are really progressive, creative and effective driving business results and people are always going to want to hear about the results.(19:50):I think you look at Elf Cosmetics, they're very progressive, they're brand forward and they've had, I forget how many consecutive quarters, maybe 20 of consecutive revenue growth. They're really changing the game with a heartbeat and they're driving the business incredible. You look at some of the work that NFL is doing, I think they're trying to reach new audiences in a way and knowing they have the deep duty of changing the model in a very old school industry. And so I love that people in our industry are taking risks and especially now this is a risk. So I think we need to continue to take risks and drive change.Kat Vesce (20:35):I love that. Nice to pay it forward. So Katie, this has been so great. Thank you so much for coming and for having time with us. We really appreciate it.Katie Babineau (20:42):Of course. Thank you.Kat Vesce (20:44):A great south by.Katie Babineau (20:45):Yeah.Kat Vesce (20:47):What a powerhouse Ilyse. That was so much fun. Oh my gosh. I know. I love it. She's great. What are some takeaways for you?Ilyse Liffreing (20:53):So I really liked how Club Beyond the full funnel experiential activation in New York City is bringing the brand to life in its own unique way. I think that's a really a great approach for a retail brand that's hoping to grow their footprint.Kat Vesce (21:10):And the notion of once you bring a customer in, they're a fan for life. And that is a huge customer acquisition driver. You don't always think about that in big branding moments. And so I thought that was such a cool story to hear from her. I also just loved Beyond Yoga is 20 years old, it was acquired by Levi's, it's now a Levi's company. They're really focused on that purpose-driven community culture and pushing now into more men's wear. I really just got the sense that they're a brand we're going to see for another 20 years, and I loved hearing her insights around how she's anchoring that in the community that they're building and that they have.Ilyse Liffreing (21:52):Yeah, and it was really interesting to hear her career trajectory and just noticing how she's really relied on people to help her through each stage of her career was fascinating and good to know that there's women out there that are willing to help other women.Kat Vesce (22:11):Yeah, always good. The power of network and then also the fact that you don't have to be in such a linear path in your career. Anyway, all in all, so inspiring. I'm so glad we got the time with Katie. And what a great start to South by Southwest. And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. Be sure to tune in this whole month as we release all the recordings from South by Southwest. See you next time.

JPMorgan Chase's David Pinto-Carpenter shares how the banking giant is adapting to changing consumer expectations for financial services, what he thinks is holding back more investment in CTV and why he’s comfortable not being a first mover. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian (00:00):I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian (00:03):And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse (00:10):This week we're delighted to talk with David Pinto-Carpenter, the managing director of Media Strategy and Insights at JPMorgan Chase.Damian (00:19):Now over 225 years old and is situated across 100 global markets. JPMorgan Chase is one of the world's most respected financial institutions, and for the second consecutive year, fortune ranked JPMorgan Chase, the fifth most admired company in the world.Ilyse (00:35):After 10 years of agency life, David moved over to JPMC where he's focused on how the company invests in its digital marketing strategy to stay current with the fast moving media environment.Damian (00:48):We start by asking David about how his agency life informed his thinking at JPMorgan ChaseIlyse (00:55):After having spent nearly 10 years on the agency side of media. What inspired you to move over to the brand side and how has that experience kind of shaped your approach at JPMorgan Chase?David (01:10):Right, so well, that really ages me, so appreciate that. But I think I've always been interested in two sides of media. One is how media can influence consumer behavior and also how media can move business. And I think it's a bit hard to get a real accurate answer of how media moves business when you don't see the other side of the business. So agencies are, there's always typically a gap between clients and agency in terms of information sharing, what can be passed back and forth. So I was fortunate enough to, as my last agency assignment work on the Truth Initiative, which is a(01:48):Youth pro non-smoking nonprofit, and they were very open with their information. Essentially we're all working on a common cause. The cause is maybe the only thing in marketing where you actually save lives and therefore our information is your information, whatever can make us better, we'll do it. My clients gave us access to their web analytic platform. We had a full understanding of their tagging infrastructure and which actions were scored higher and lower and where we were trying to drive people and how people were traversing across the funnel as well as their data management platform. How do we create audiences? How do we collect data on an ad impression? How do we ultimately transform that into groups that we can use to target better? And for Truth, they're trying to reach 13 to 24 year olds with the message they don't want to hear. The hardest thing to get in action, and their action is to sign people up for advocacy.(02:40):I was able to see front and back everything that's happening and be able to use that to build tools and capabilities that allow us to model forward outcomes. We're basically able to say, okay, now we can not only project how much the outcome will cost, but also we can anticipate how people will respond to the ads as we put them out into market, and that included creative, that included everything else. We were able to reduce the amount of working media they needed to achieve their goal by 20%. We just said, take that back. You don't need it. You're a nonprofit, you don't need to spend it anymore. That was my last gig. And then at the time, my current manager, Tracy- Ann Lim, chief media officer at JPMC started to contact me asking if I was interested in coming to JPMC. So first questions I asked were, what kind of systems do you have?(03:24):What kind of access to information will I have? And then what is the objective? What does a team look like? So the team was very nascent, but the technology and the systems were very similar to truth, actually. It was a no-brainer getting access to or having the potential to access some portion of JPMC data to make marketing more effective and see how it works. And then a nonprofit, let's say JPMC’s, I dunno, a hundred times the size of the nonprofit, maybe that's some job security it'll take me, took one year to make something happen on the nonprofit. Maybe we'll take a hundred on JPMC, but it's a fun thing to do. I'm very grateful for that experience. I worked across a lot of different categories, a lot of different businesses, but I don't think we would've been as successful at moving things as fast as JPMC if Tracy and I didn't come from an agency background. There's nothing that can really prepare you for working at JPMC.Damian (04:18):One question I have about that. When you worked on the Truth Initiative project, it sounds like you would have a very clear mission statement. How do you think about that mission statement in your current context, in your current role?David (04:33):So we have, depending on how you count them, between 30 and 40 business units across JPMC globally, and all of them have some desire or ambition to market something out into the world. So I think we treat it as a series of levels. We have corporate level marketing and that's, you know, what does JPMC stand for? What is it doing in the communities? What information do we need to get out? So people do any number of things, either decide to open a banking relationship with us, decide to trust us with their investments or even come to work for our company. We compete on a lot of different fronts. So that's the top. And then from there, we cascade down to business groups, business units. But I think our purpose as recently defined by Carla is to make dreams happen for everyone everywhere, every day. And I think that's the culture that we try to carry through in the marketing decisions that we make. Yes, of course we want to open more accounts, but also we want to do right by our customers and make people understand that not only is this a great place to work, it's a great place to bank, but there's a lot of good that's happening from business that originates from JPMorgan Chase.Ilyse (05:42):It can be a tricky sector to markets because it's so heavily regulated - finance that is. I'm curious what your media strategy looks like. What kind of customer insights can you rely on to inform your overall media plan?David (05:59):Yeah, so we do a lot of design target work. We do a lot of segmentation, but I think specific to media, we treat our media strategy a lot more like financial planning and analysis in that we are – it’s a couple things: One, if we don't make more than we spend, we're a bank, we're probably not going to get that money again. So we treat an initial investment as very sacrosanct. We need to be very disciplined in the way that we spend it and use the best information we have to make sure it'll be a success. And then we try to get better over time. So we work with our finance partners in every business to understand what are the financials of each product, how are they changing, what do we know about the interaction effect of the channels that we market and the other channels that we use for marketing?(06:44):And how do we triangulate and forecast forward what we think that benefit will be and then prove that out over time through testing. In that respect, the notion of a campaign is important in the sense that it's an organizing construct to get work done and there's a message that runs and we create a message and it runs in the advertising space, and we're trying to get better at quantifying that impact. What does good creative look like and what does bad creative look like and what does that do for the business? But for us, we buy, for lack of a better word, blank space for another message to be put in. And so we've built a lot of muscle memory over time on what works in one business, how do we adapt it to another? Our business is similarly situated so that we can believe that this will be a predictable outcome for the foreseeable future. How long do we think this outcome will last? And then the proof is in, do we hit our numbers at the end of the year?Damian (07:33):You've touched on this a little bit Ilyse, but it's a sector, the finance sector is a conquesting sector in some ways, and on the face of it, there may seem to be little differentiation between one big bank and another. But I'm curious from your point of view in terms of branding, how do you think about JPMC setting itself apart? What are its differentiating points and how does that manifest itself in how you think about your work?David (07:58):Right. Yeah. So it's very important for me to keep one foot out of JPMC and not think like a marketer but think like a human being. And in that respect, if you open a checking account, you open a savings account, generally speaking, those are going to be pretty similar products from bank to bank. But I think where the real race is right now in financial services is experiences. So how do we deliver value to you by being an account holder of one of our products? And how is that different from the way that you are treated or the way that you might feel or the things that you can experience or unlock through other products? We have a pretty robust travel platform and dining platform. We invest heavily in bonus accelerators for travel and dining and other spaces. And we're starting to open progressively larger lounge business in addition to our branches. So we treat all of those as places where we can make an impression on people to give them an experience that is, for lack of a better word, white glove.David (09:00):That they couldn't get anywhere else and trying to make the differentiation on those experiences. And I think that's where the biggest battleground is.Damian (09:07):It's so interesting to me to hear you talk like that and how a company like JPMorgan Chase is actually thinking about lifestyle and experiences and in lots of ways you are marketing a membership or a membership of a kind of elite club, if you like. Is that fair?David (09:24):I think for some of our products, we compete in affluent and there's a lot of benefits that we give to affluent account holders that are meant to give unforgettable experiences, experiences they can’t get anywhere else. But I think even our core experience in branches, we want that to be a differentiating factor too. So we invest totally separate from marketing, but we invest a lot in making sure that our bankers have the right information about the customers that they're serving at their fingertips so that when someone comes in and has a question that they know the entire history of that person's relationship. And then in call centers as well, investing a lot in applied AI and ML to do the same thing. So if you call, we want to understand exactly who you are and help get you the help that you need as quickly as possible. We treat all of our products across the spectrum as trying to be differentiated in that way.Damian (10:14):So maybe it's a better way to talk about it as you think about the different customer experiences at different levels.David (10:19):Right, yes.Ilyse (10:21):Yeah, I would say that's definitely like a audience first approach to marketing. What about when it comes to buying ad space and media space?David (10:31):Yea, so without going into too much detail about the secret sauce, I'll say that we obviously have relationships with a quarter of the United States in terms of our customers and our households that bank with us and millions of small businesses as well. There's a lot of information that's proprietary to us that we are able to leverage and we take the protection of that data very seriously. There's a lot that we can't use and we can't access and we have to secure approval to get it. But I think generally speaking, our products are aligned to a series of firm-wide strategic segments, and we track growth against those segments. That's at the highest level and as you go progressively lower the matrix of the audiences that we might use or the audience we might prioritize becomes more matrixed and complex. But we have an audience centric approach to targeting. We are getting better in our capabilities to orchestrate journeys. So I think our ambition or our desire is to be as close to one and personal as we can be given the restrictions that we have in data access.Ilyse (11:36):So your digital marketing strategy definitely signals a future that is focused on measurable outcomes. I'm curious about how you're using channels like CTV and digital out of home to connect that brand awareness with that performance level.David (11:54):Sure. So I would say our strategy has been focused on measurable outcomes since day one. As I mentioned, we wouldn't get money if we weren't able to prove that it was working. But we also think about media in a full funnel context. So awareness drives consideration, drives acquisition, and they're all tied to a person and that person is interacting with multiple messages every day. So I think in the past, and what we're trying to progress away from is the campaign specific mindset. Every product works in a silo, they're all targeting a general audience. And once a product launches on awareness channels, we're no longer on awareness channels. So we've spent a lot of time proving that interaction effect between awareness and consideration acquisition so that we can say what's happening up here is benefiting up here, but we also know the unique benefit of what's happening at the top.(12:44):But I think the two biggest things holding CTV back at the moment for us, I can't speak for the rest of the advertising industry, and it seems like they're spending a lot, is price and brand safety. So on the price front on average CTV ads among publishers, I will not name are two to three times higher than broad reach cable or some mix that's more efficient in nature. Brand safety is another in that you can buy an unlimited amount of CTV that's running in a lot of different fragmented places who you choose to buy it direct. You can choose to buy it through a hardware provider or you can choose to buy it in some app aggregator and all of those will air to some household in some content somewhere. And you know what the household is. So where we've been pushing a lot on brand safety is can we get, it doesn't have to be similar to TV per se, but we definitely need to know what programming we're running against.(13:38):Especially if we're talking about long tail connected TV programming. Most of it's not brand safe, but there's a lot of connected TV content that's tied to children's programming. And if it's going to a household and we can't exactly confirm where that ad brand, who knows, we're running against 12 year olds this entire time. So we're pushing for more information back through brand safety vendors and publishers to validate exactly where that's running in the same context or in a similar context to TV logs. I think once that happens, we invest in the same way that we would anywhere else.Ilyse (14:16):Do you think it'll get there sooner rather than later? David (14:19):Or is the data incoming?David (14:22):I think so. Brand safety technology really just as a matter of getting the information from the hardware or the app provider itself.Damian (14:32):As we look back 2024, we wrote a lot about how the upfronts were changing and there's been a lot of press about upfronts changing. What's your perspective on the upfronts? You talked a little bit about the differences between linear and CTV. Has that impacted the way you think about your products across linear and streaming? How has the upfronts changed things, speeded things up, slowed things down.David (14:55):So the upfronts are always, I don't know if I'm, was it masochist or sadist, but the upfronts are usually my favorite part of the year because you can get a lot of decisions done at the same time and you can look much longer term than sometimes even my agency days clients or in our cases the business are thinking themselves. So it forces a lot of conversations on what is the outlook of the business, what is the outlook of the products you're prioritizing? And then on the other side, how have macro changes impacted what we think will work and at what price? So I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the last four years more has changed in consumption patterns than the previous 10 before that. I think it has had a pretty massive impact on the marketplace in that anyone who's watched cable TV recently will watch endless reruns on cable tv. And so it's really just a matter of capturing passive intent. There's not all that much original content that is being developed specifically for TV anymore.(15:59):So it's a bit more like, I don't know, run of network or video advertising 10 years ago. So we have to take those two things and counterbalance if we know that the bulk of live TV is happening with hyper consumers who are watching it a lot and have a different footprint than those who are watching streaming. But we also know that streaming, ad supported streaming is a very small portion of the total streaming universe. How do we munge those two things together to find the right opportunity? And how do we validate that change is ultimately resulting in a response among the people that are most likely to respond for a particular product or service advertising. This year we undertook a big evaluation. Essentially it felt like the inflection point to say, we can't really just go to market in the same way that we always have in the upfront because there's not as much inventory as we want to buy in the upfront, but it's a good opportunity for us to think about what is a holistic video investment long-term and do we make drastic changes this year or do we make drastic next year?(16:58):So we essentially undertook a process where we built versions of that strategic segmentation that I mentioned where all of our products are aligned against, and then flip that same segmentation around to understand how networks and digital video packages and connected TV packages all reach these different segments. And some of that's a slew of tools, not any one tool has that whole picture. So we use different platforms for different parts of the picture and then started to reorient the entire investment around how do we best reach the people that are most relevant to this product in a way that sort of normalizes the whole investment for the firm.Ilyse (17:43):So this was the first year that you actually looked at all the puzzle pieces, I guess, and put those together. Was there something that inspired that in the market specifically or just the ongoing change throughout the past couple of years?David (18:00):Yeah, I think that what really prompted that change was the options that we have to procure media in different ways. And so now we have different options to say, what is the best method of buying? Is this something that we need to buy as a commodity at the best price? Is this something that we need to buy that's highly targeted to a household, but we need to control the programming? Is this something that we within a reasonable bounds know what the content categories are and we think that there's opportunity in the response of people watching in these content categories in connected tv, or is there on the opposite side a commodity for video where we say if everything's going to run in this standard topic allow list and we're trying to get tonnage but control for the way an ad is served. And that flexibility didn't exist to the extent that it exists now, I think our flexibility to choose those different routes is also relatively recent development through our in housing efforts. And also we have great very flexible agency partnerships to say, we're going to look at this together. We'll figure out the best combination of entities or methods or pipelines to get access to the inventory that we want at the right price. And sometimes that is a collaboration and sometimes it's something we do ourselves. So that flexibility gave us a lot more options to think critically about where and how we secure video upfront inventory.Ilyse (19:27):Traditionally, banks are perceived as brick and mortar establishments, but these days they're all online and digital. How does that change the way you go to market?David (19:39):Right. So each business has some blend of digital and branch originated business. So we think about business bank. If you're a small business owner, you're more likely than not going to go into a branch to make sure you know who the person is that's handling your money for your business. Whereas credit cards are much more digital first. So that blend of who opens, which accounts, where is usually a pretty good predictor of what channels will work well to solicit a response. We have a very big app and website. We're also one of the most conservative cybersecurity companies on earth. So there's a lot of capabilities that marketers like that we will never have or capabilities that we have to work a lot harder to evaluate whether or not it's worth it for us. We treat that as a good challenge.(20:35):If you can't explain exactly where information is going and why it's being used, you probably shouldn't use it in the first place. I don't think that's unique to finance. So we are able use that to our advantage too. So if we're not a first mover and everyone is working out the kinks on our behalf and then we say, okay, we're comfortable with this because we're seeing how the landscape is utilizing this new tool or this new technology or some other part of the technology ecosystem makes it so that we don't have to use it in the way that it is built to be used, but we can customize it and this company will work with us. That helps us to be effective when we need to be effective. And we also don't need to be a first mover because a very small change in improvement for us might be the revenue of an entire company in another place.(21:25):So it's worth it to be methodical and very focused on getting it right, getting things secure, using our digital capabilities in a responsible way. But then I think that the most important thing for us is that our branches, we view our branches as a superpower. It's a place where the vast majority of our customers form an opinion of us. If you go into a branch and don't have a good experience, then you also won't have a good opinion of us. And the marketing effectiveness is partially on what ads you put into market. It's partially based on the impression people have of you, and it's partially based on the opinion that people state of you based on their experience. And so we are always looking for ways to learn from what is working in the branches to improve our marketing capabilities. So I don't think that there's necessarily a trade off. It's trying to find the way that they both benefit each other and then what mix of channels ultimately encourages the type of interest that will grow the business in the unique way the business is configured.Damian (22:23):Great. Thank you so much for these really thoughtful insights.Ilyse (22:26):Yes, thank you so much.Damian (22:33):And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse (22:38):The Current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.David (22:44):And remember, we treat our media strategy a lot more like financial planning and analysis. We need to be very disciplined in the way that we spend it and use the best information we have to make sure it'll be a success. Damian (22:54):I’m Damian. Ilyse (22:55):And I'm Ilyse.Damian (22:56):And we'll see you next time. 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