The Art and Science of Difficult Conversations

Hosted by Chris Wong & Lucie Tesarova

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Nov 2026

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When we communicate better, we lead better, perform better, build better relationships, and ultimately live better. Ready to learn? Join us to learn how to handle difficult conversations with the people in your professional life. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Want to be a guest on our podcast? Let us know! https://bit.ly/3z4Sn5w

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November 3, 202626 min

You Can't Promise a Safe Space: Trauma-Informed Leadership and Storytelling (Part 1), with Maria Bryan

What happens in the room, and in the body, when someone shares something painful with you? And what do you do next? In Part 1, Lucie and Chris talk with Maria Bryan, a trauma-informed storytelling trainer and creator of the When Bearing Witness program. Maria spent a decade in nonprofit marketing and communications before one webinar question turned her consultancy upside down. Today she helps storytellers, fundraisers and leaders hear hard stories without causing harm. Content note: Maria briefly mentions her daughter's NICU stay and infant loss, without graphic detail. In this episode: How a single audience question led Maria to rebuild her work around trauma-informed storytelling The moment hearing someone's story brought her own trauma back, and what she learned from it What a trauma response is, and why the body doesn't always know we're safe Why being trauma-informed isn't a checklist, and why no one can promise a 100% safe space Practical ways to give people safety and agency: choosing the setting, seeing questions in advance, skipping questions, and aftercare The fawn response: when someone says yes (or overshares) because pleasing others has kept them safe Bringing trauma-informed care to conversations with your own leadership, and why change feels threatening even when it's positive Questioning urgency, and why fewer, more ethical stories may serve your mission better Notable quotes: "Being trauma-informed doesn't mean that you're totally mitigating trauma." (Maria Bryan) "We can never say, I'm going to create a space so safe that you're not going to have a trauma response telling your story. That's not being trauma-informed." (Maria Bryan) "What if all of the care we put into interviewing our story owners, we bring to this conversation with our leaders?" (Maria Bryan) "Stories are not a piece of paper. It's not an email or social media post. It's a person." (Maria Bryan) Listener challenge: Before your next conversation where someone may share something painful, give them one more choice than you normally would: where to meet, which questions to skip, or how much to share. Then check in afterward. Resources mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk My Grandmother's Hands by Resmaa Menakem What Happened to You? by Bruce D. Perry and Oprah Winfrey Neurogiving by Cherian Koshy About our guest Maria Bryan is a trauma-informed storytelling trainer. She is the host of the When Bearing Witness® podcast and facilitates the When Bearing Witness® Trauma-Informed Storytelling Certification Program. Maria's work helps nonprofit leaders tell powerful and impactful stories that resist harm. Over the past 18+ years in the nonprofit and public sector, she has trained thousands globally, in person and virtually, focusing on trauma-informed storytelling and purpose-driven marketing. Her learning lineage spans a Master's Degree in Public Administration, a Bachelor's Degree in Journalism, and professional certifications in Trauma & Resilience, Trauma-Informed Space Holding, Trauma-Informed Coaching, and Somatic Embodiment & Regulation. Maria is a firm believer that storytellers make the world a healthier, safer, cleaner, and happier place.© 2026 Chris Wong and Lucie Tesarova Website: https://www.mariabryan.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariabryancrtv/ About your hosts Lucie Tesarova, ICF PCC, is the founder of MindFittery and coaches leaders on the inner game of high-stakes conversations: https://www.mindfittery.com Chris Wong helps leaders and for-purpose organizations build intentional cultures and systems: https://www.myleadershippotential.com Download Chris's Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders: https://www.tinyurl.com/difficultplaybook Never miss an episode Podcast hub, newsletter and resources: https://www.myleadershippotential.com/podcast Sign up for the podcast newsletter: https://the-art-science-of-difficult-conversations-podcast.kit.com/ Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TAS.difficultconversations Next week: Part 2, how managers can support teammates when trauma is involved, plus a role play.

October 27, 202627 min

Role-Play: Leading a Restructuring When You Don’t Have the Answers (Part 2) with Cynthia Conigliaro

Your company announces a restructuring. Your team wants answers. You don’t have any. What do you say? In Part 2, Cynthia Conigliaro, MSW, MBA, CHWC , founder of Work Well Webinars, takes on one of the toughest conversations a leader can face. Chris and Lucie play anxious team members who push back with every question she can’t answer, from “Should I update my resume?” to “We’re planning a family. Will I still have a job?” Then the three of them debrief: what landed, what each of them would do differently, and how leaders can care for themselves after a conversation like this. In this episode, we explore: A live role-play of announcing a restructuring with no concrete answers Why admitting “I don’t have all the answers” builds trust How well-meant support, like time off or a priorities list, can sound like “you’re getting fired” Whether to answer “Should I update my resume?” (Chris and Cynthia disagree, and that’s okay) The “internal resume” as a concrete action step for anxious employees How caring leaders can handle feeling crushed, and imposter syndrome after the meeting Why forcing productivity during chaos backfires, plus a lesson from the ER drama The Pitt What everyone gets wrong about resilience Key takeaways: Honesty beats false certainty. Say what you know, what you don’t, and when you’ll know more. The goal isn’t to make people happy. It’s to keep them grounded, supported, and able to move forward. Your calm is the message. People under financial stress may not hear your words, but they feel your tone. Give people something to do. An internal resume helps people see their transferable skills, inside the company or out. Prioritize, don’t push. In chaos, strip back to what truly matters instead of trying to do everything. Resilience can be learned. It’s a skill, not a personality trait. Missed Part 1? Listen here: Part 1 About Cynthia: Cynthia Conigliaro is the founder of Work Well Webinars, where she designs well-being webinars for employees across the country on leadership, communication, culture, and wellness of mind, body, and organization. She holds a BA in Psychology from College of the Holy Cross and an MSW and MBA (focus on Organizational and Group Psychology) from Boston College, is trained in MBSR, and has been an independent health and wellness coach for over 20 years. Connect with Cynthia: Website: workwellwebinars.com LinkedIn: Cynthia Conigliaro Connect with the hosts: Join our newsletters and the waitlist for Chris’s upcoming book on building a future-ready nonprofit: myleadershippotential.com/podcast Chris Wong, Leadership Potential: myleadershippotential.com Lucie Tesarova, MindFittery: mindfittery.com Weekly Mental Fitness Practice Newsletter When you communicate better, you live better.

October 20, 202625 min

Leading Resilient Teams Through Constant Change (Part 1) with Cynthia Conigliaro

How do you keep your team resilient through restructurings, layoffs, and endless change, especially when you’re burned out yourself? Chris and Lucie welcome Cynthia Conigliaro , an organizational and group psychology expert who trains organizations nationwide on emotional and physical wellness. Drawing on her background in organizational psychology, social work, mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR), and resilience coaching, Cynthia offers practical, compassionate guidance for leaders caught in the middle of change. In this episode, we explore: Why there’s no “right way” to meditate, and a quick way to center yourself before a meeting The early warning signs of disengagement and burnout on your team Cynthia’s definition of resilience and the idea of the “resilient story” How to check in with employees, one-on-one and as a team Supporting the leader who believes emotions don’t belong at work Balancing care and productivity when a team is grieving Leading through organizational decisions you personally disagree with Helping employees who are exhausted by change, and what to do when your own hands are tied Key takeaways: Take care of yourself first. Sleep, food, movement, and ruthless prioritization help you lead from a full cup, and model the same for your team. Notice the cues. Missed meetings, silence, and lost interest in favorite projects are often signs someone is struggling or considering leaving. Lead with honesty. It’s okay to say you don’t have all the answers. Authenticity builds trust. Acknowledge, explain, and co-create. Name the frustration, share the “why” behind the change, and ask, “What could make this work better for you?” Coming up in Part 2: Cynthia role-plays a conversation with your team as you lead them through change. ABOUT CYNTHIA Cynthia Conigliaro, MSW, MBA, CHWC, is the founder of Work Well Webinars, delivering emotional, physical, and organizational wellness programs to companies nationwide. She holds a BA in Psychology from College of the Holy Cross and an MSW and MBA (focus on Organizational and Group Psychology) from Boston College. She has worked with Organizational Wellness and Learning Systems (OWLS) on evidence-based workplace mental health programs, is trained in Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR), and has been an independent health and wellness coach for over 20 years. CONNECT WITH CYNTHIA Website: https://www.workwellwebinars.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-conigliaro-mba-msw-hwc/ Resources mentioned: Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Dr. Joel Bennett, Organizational Wellness & Learning Systems, author of Raw Coping Power Connect with the hosts: Chris Wong, Leadership Potential: myleadershippotential.com Lucie Tesarova, MindFittery: mindfittery.com When you communicate better, you live better.

October 13, 202624 min

How to Deliver Hard News to Someone Who Cares Deeply (Part 2), with Elizabeth Schuster & Marissa Ferrari.

How do you tell someone who has poured their heart into a program that it's being cut, without losing their trust or their commitment to the mission? In Part 2 of our Season 4 premiere, Elizabeth Schuster and Marissa Ferrari of Sustainable Economies join Lucie and Chris for a live role play. Elizabeth guides Lucie, playing a passionate program director, through the moment her outreach program is downsized during budget season. Then we unpack what worked and why. In this episode: A real-time role play of delivering hard news to someone deeply attached to the mission Acknowledging before redirecting, and why rushing to solutions backfires The power of "and" instead of "but" to hold two truths at once What shifted Lucie from "maybe this isn't the place for me" to "tell me more" Having disagreement in front of the group, and when to take it one-on-one Why people keep bringing up the past, and what real repair looks like "Name it to tame it": calling out tension in the moment The pre-mortem and the question every leader should ask: "Are you open to changing your mind?" Preparing yourself mentally and emotionally before you facilitate Listener challenge: The next time you deliver hard news, catch one "but" and replace it with "and." Notice how differently the other person responds when both truths are allowed to stand. About our guests Elizabeth Schuster is an environmental economist and Partner at Sustainable Economies with 25 years of experience in sustainability and community development. Marissa Ferrari is Creative Director at Sustainable Economies, a researcher, brand strategist and facilitator who advises leaders in conservation, parks and environmental education. Together they help mission-driven organizations turn passion into strategic plans that make a difference. Website: https://sustainableeconomies.com Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethfschuster/ Marissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marissaferrari About your hosts Lucie Tesarova, ICF PCC, is the founder of MindFittery and coaches leaders on the inner game of high-stakes conversations: https://www.mindfittery.com Chris Wong helps leaders and for-purpose organizations build intentional cultures and systems: https://www.myleadershippotential.com Download Chris's Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders: https://www.tinyurl.com/difficultplaybook Never miss an episode Podcast hub, newsletter and resources: https://www.myleadershippotential.com/podcast Sign up for the podcast newsletter: https://the-art-science-of-difficult-conversations-podcast.kit.com/ Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TAS.difficultconversations Nonprofit executive directors: Chris is writing a book on succession planning, scenario planning and developing leaders on a shoestring budget, and would love to interview you. Get in touch at https://www.myleadershippotential.com/podcast Next week: we dive into resilience.

October 6, 202628 min

How to Get Real Agreement When Everyone Cares Too Much, with Elizabeth Schuster & Marissa Ferrari

Strategic planning is hard in any organization. In a nonprofit, where people's identities are tied to the mission, every priority feels personal, and every cut feels like a betrayal of values. In this Season 4 premiere, Lucie and Chris talk with Elizabeth Schuster and Marissa Ferrari, co-leaders of Sustainable Economies, about what really happens in the room when passionate people have to decide together. They share how they design processes that expect conflict instead of fearing it, why "safe to disagree" still isn't enough to prevent false agreement, and the inner work facilitators and leaders need to do so they can stay steady when the room gets tense. Meet our guests Elizabeth Schuster , Environmental Economist and Partner, Sustainable Economies Elizabeth is an economic professional with 25 years of experience in sustainability and community development, in the U.S. and around the world. She was educated at Oberlin College and the University of Arizona. She has partnered with conservation nonprofits, park districts, museums and botanical gardens, coalitions, agricultural organizations, and municipalities. Her research covers regenerative agriculture economics, food production, and ecosystem service valuation. Her work has earned national recognition, including awards from the American Farm Bureau Federation and the NJ Association of Floodplain Management. She is passionate about bridging gaps and bringing data and strategy together to drive positive change. Marissa Ferrari , Creative Director, Sustainable Economies Marissa is a researcher, brand strategist, and facilitator and a trusted advisor to local and national leaders in conservation, parks, land protection, and environmental education. She uses a research-driven approach to shape strategy, messaging, and organizational identity, helping mission-driven organizations unite purpose and potential to reach their most ambitious goals. Over 25 years, she has worked her way up from writer to senior director. She has led dozens of large-scale research, strategy, and branding projects for nonprofits, public agencies, and coalitions, including American Forests' Tree Equity initiative, the High Line Network's Grand River Network river corridor revitalization, and the Cleveland Museum of Natural History's land trust. She is certified by the International Association for Sustainable Economy (IASE) as an International Sustainable Business Advisor. Sustainable Economies is a strategic planning, branding and communications, and applied research firm based in Wooster, Ohio. It helps mission-driven organizations turn their passion into strategic plans that make a difference, not a pretty binder that sits on a shelf. 🔗 https://sustainableeconomies.com 🔗 Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethfschuster/ 🔗 Marissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marissaferrari What we cover Why treating planning as a learning experience makes people braver and their ideas bolder The expert who found out nobody understood his work, and why data from stakeholders landed where feedback from facilitators couldn't Naming the low point in advance: telling teams upfront that there will be a moment when it feels like everything is falling apart What facilitators do with their own nerves and the urge to please , even after decades of experience The over-explaining trap and the question-stacking habit When asking for more input is avoiding a decision , and what that costs in time, money, and trust Setting decision points and "how much evidence is enough" before you start Loss aversion and why the most mission-driven staff find it hardest to let go Why teams smile and nod even when it's safe to disagree, and the step-by-step agreement method that fixes it Notable quotes "Just because someone is annoyed doesn't mean we said the wrong thing." (Elizabeth) "Even if you create an environment where people feel safe to disagree, you still get smiling and nodding." (Elizabeth) "They were trying to avoid conflict by having everybody reach consensus, but instead created a lot more conflict by avoiding the decision themselves." (Marissa) "When they see that we can navigate through that tension, it restores their trust in us as facilitators, but it also deepens their trust in themselves and in each other." (Marissa) "That is still something that I have to coach myself about to this day." (Marissa, on nerves before big meetings) "No nonprofit professional in the history of ever has wanted to sunset their favorite program." (Elizabeth) Listener challenge In your next team decision, don't take a nod as agreement. Pause and ask: "Can someone say back, in their own words, what we just agreed to?" If you hear two different versions, you've found the real conversation. Bonus inner-game rep: the next time someone looks frustrated with you, notice the urge to explain again. Take one breath and let the silence do the work. Your hosts Lucie Tesarova is the founder of MindFittery and an ICF PCC-credentialed coach who helps leaders build the mental fitness and emotional intelligence to lead through high-stakes conversations. Her focus is the inner game: what happens inside you before, during, and after the hard moment. 🔗 https://www.mindfittery.com | Newsletter: https://mindfittery.kit.com/profile Chris Wong helps leaders and for-purpose organizations build intentional cultures and systems through End Accidental Leadership. His focus is the outer game: structures, culture, and how teams really work. 🔗 https://www.myleadershippotential.com | https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc 📘 Download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders: https://www.tinyurl.com/difficultplaybook Listen, watch, subscribe 🎧 Podcast: https://tas-difficultconversations.captivate.fm ▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TAS.difficultconversations ✉️ Newsletter: https://the-art-science-of-difficult-conversations-podcast.kit.com/ The Art & Science of Difficult Conversations: when you communicate better, you live better.

July 7, 202614 min

Is AI making us end the show?

Sorry for the click-bait title, but as season 3 comes to an end, Lucie and Chris have some big news to share. They also spend a few minutes talking about the rise of AI, especially how it impacts difficult conversations. Then they share some BIG news for listeners. How will you spend the summer? Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment

June 30, 202622 min

How to facilitate heavy group topics (Part 2 with Frank Velasquez, Jr.)

In part 2 of their conversation, Frank joins Chris and Lucie to talk through the steps of facilitating restorative circles, the preparation that makes group conversations successful, and the secrets of facilitating well. Together, they go through practical tips for facilitators and leaders to create safe, impactful spaces for dialogue and healing. Key Takeaways: Setting the right container is crucial for meaningful conversations. Preparation involves both logistical planning and internal readiness. Facilitators should be flexible and follow organic conversation cues. Incorporating joy and positive memories helps balance heavy topics. Facilitators need to recognize emotional fatigue and practice self-care. About Frank (He/Him/His) Storyteller Extraordinaire, Social Justice Warrior, and Relationship Cultivator! In relentless pursuit of racial and gender equity, Frank’s warmth brings folks together to talk through the tough stuff. To Frank, every person’s story matters like each ingredient in a yummy bowl of gumbo. Each standing on its own, but together making something unforgettable. From major conferences like the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference, AFP ICON, and AFP Lead to training rooms everywhere from Walt Disney World to the MGM Grand Las Vegas, Frank has reached thousands of folks with narratives that just hit different, leaving each group invigorated with his unique blend of storytelling magic, quick wit, and social justice fire! As the Founder of 4 Da Hood and the visionary behind the Ascending Leaders in Color leadership program, Frank forges pathways for Peeps of Color to step into their power - authentically, courageously, and with unapologetic joy. Because for Frank, advancing equity isn’t just a job - it's about thriving in a world our ancestors dreamed for us, a world where communities of color have the same access and opportunity to build their generational wealth. And he's doing it one connection, one story, one courageous conversation at a time. Connect with Frank: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/fvelasquezjr/ Contact Frank directly: frank@4dahood.com 4DaHood - https://4dahood.com Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment

June 23, 202620 min

How to use Restorative Justice Circles to lead better groups (Part 1 with Frank Velasquez Jr.)

In this week’s episode, Frank Velásquez Jr. joins Chris and Lucie to share his journey into restorative justice, leadership as a person of color, and how restorative circles can transform organizational culture. Discover practical insights on authentic leadership, facilitation, and creating safe spaces for difficult conversations. Leaders of color often struggle with authenticity due to organizational and societal pressures. The importance of being authentic to yourself What are Restorative Justice Circles and how are they different from other types of group facilitation? How can you use agreements to change the tone of your group sessions About Frank (He/Him/His) Storyteller Extraordinaire, Social Justice Warrior, and Relationship Cultivator! In relentless pursuit of racial and gender equity, Frank’s warmth brings folks together to talk through the tough stuff. To Frank, every person’s story matters like each ingredient in a yummy bowl of gumbo. Each standing on its own, but together making something unforgettable. From major conferences like the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference, AFP ICON, and AFP Lead to training rooms everywhere from Walt Disney World to the MGM Grand Las Vegas, Frank has reached thousands of folks with narratives that just hit different, leaving each group invigorated with his unique blend of storytelling magic, quick wit, and social justice fire! As the Founder of 4 Da Hood and the visionary behind the Ascending Leaders in Color leadership program, Frank forges pathways for Peeps of Color to step into their power - authentically, courageously, and with unapologetic joy. Because for Frank, advancing equity isn’t just a job - it's about thriving in a world our ancestors dreamed for us, a world where communities of color have the same access and opportunity to build their generational wealth. And he's doing it one connection, one story, one courageous conversation at a time. Connect with Frank: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankvelasquezjr/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/frankvelasquezjr Restorative Justice Practices - International Institute for Restorative Practices - https://www.iirp.edu/ 4DaHood - Organization founded by Frank Velásquez Jr. - https://4dahood.org/ Ascending Leaders of Color Program - https://ascendingleaders.org/ Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment

June 16, 202621 min

How to Communicate as a Leader when Times are Tough

In this episode, Will Hobart shares insights on leadership, transparency, managing anxiety, and building trust within organizations. Discover practical strategies for effective communication and authentic leadership in challenging times. About our guest: Will Hobart is an education leader, strategist, and nonprofit executive with more than 15 years of experience helping organizations navigate complex challenges, build strong partnerships, and create opportunities for student success. His career has included roles as a middle school teacher, school district administrator, and nonprofit leader, providing a unique perspective on how communication, trust, and collaboration drive meaningful change. Throughout his career, Will has led efforts to expand college access, strengthen career pathways, and improve outcomes for young people. He is passionate about bringing people together across diverse perspectives to solve complex problems and create lasting impact. Will believes that many of the most important breakthroughs in organizations and communities begin with honest, courageous conversations. He has led teams through periods of growth, uncertainty, and transformation, and has seen how empathy, curiosity, and clarity can strengthen relationships and move people toward shared goals. Contact Will: Will Hobart - LinkedIn Golden Apple Foundation for Excellence in Teaching Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment

June 9, 202638 min

When your team isn't on the same page

How do you align a team that doesn't seem to be reading the same page, or even the same book? In Part 1 of our conversation with nonprofit leader Will Hobart, we dig into one of the hardest tensions in leadership: caring deeply about your people while still driving toward clear goals and results. Will shares the lessons that shaped him, from a fifth-grade conflict-resolution program to the rigid, resource-constrained world of public education, to scaling a 90-year-old nonprofit. Along the way, he gets honest about the moment hard feedback forced him to confront the gap between his intent and his impact, and how he learned that his team's different needs and ambitions weren't a lack of drive but just a different seat at the table. If you've ever felt pulled between the strategy you're accountable for and the empathy your team needs from you, this one's for you. About our guest: Will Hobart is an education leader, strategist, and nonprofit executive with more than 15 years of experience helping organizations navigate complex challenges, build strong partnerships, and create opportunities for student success. His career has included roles as a middle school teacher, school district administrator, and nonprofit leader, providing a unique perspective on how communication, trust, and collaboration drive meaningful change. Throughout his career, Will has led efforts to expand college access, strengthen career pathways, and improve outcomes for young people. He is passionate about bringing people together across diverse perspectives to solve complex problems and create lasting impact. Will believes that many of the most important breakthroughs in organizations and communities begin with honest, courageous conversations. He has led teams through periods of growth, uncertainty, and transformation, and has seen how empathy, curiosity, and clarity can strengthen relationships and move people toward shared goals. Contact us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment