When we communicate better, we lead better, perform better, build better relationships, and ultimately live better. Ready to learn? Join us to learn how to handle difficult conversations with the people in your professional life. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Want to be a guest on our podcast? Let us know! https://bit.ly/3z4Sn5w
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October 13, 202624 min
How to Deliver Hard News to Someone Who Cares Deeply (Part 2), with Elizabeth Schuster & Marissa Ferrari.
How do you tell someone who has poured their heart into a program that it's being cut, without losing their trust or their commitment to the mission? In Part 2 of our Season 4 premiere, Elizabeth Schuster and Marissa Ferrari of Sustainable Economies join Lucie and Chris for a live role play. Elizabeth guides Lucie, playing a passionate program director, through the moment her outreach program is downsized during budget season. Then we unpack what worked and why. In this episode: A real-time role play of delivering hard news to someone deeply attached to the mission Acknowledging before redirecting, and why rushing to solutions backfires The power of "and" instead of "but" to hold two truths at once What shifted Lucie from "maybe this isn't the place for me" to "tell me more" Having disagreement in front of the group, and when to take it one-on-one Why people keep bringing up the past, and what real repair looks like "Name it to tame it": calling out tension in the moment The pre-mortem and the question every leader should ask: "Are you open to changing your mind?" Preparing yourself mentally and emotionally before you facilitate Listener challenge: The next time you deliver hard news, catch one "but" and replace it with "and." Notice how differently the other person responds when both truths are allowed to stand. About our guests Elizabeth Schuster is an environmental economist and Partner at Sustainable Economies with 25 years of experience in sustainability and community development. Marissa Ferrari is Creative Director at Sustainable Economies, a researcher, brand strategist and facilitator who advises leaders in conservation, parks and environmental education. Together they help mission-driven organizations turn passion into strategic plans that make a difference. Website: https://sustainableeconomies.com Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethfschuster/ Marissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marissaferrari About your hosts Lucie Tesarova, ICF PCC, is the founder of MindFittery and coaches leaders on the inner game of high-stakes conversations: https://www.mindfittery.com Chris Wong helps leaders and for-purpose organizations build intentional cultures and systems: https://www.myleadershippotential.com Download Chris's Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders: https://www.tinyurl.com/difficultplaybook Never miss an episode Podcast hub, newsletter and resources: https://www.myleadershippotential.com/podcast Sign up for the podcast newsletter: https://the-art-science-of-difficult-conversations-podcast.kit.com/ Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TAS.difficultconversations Nonprofit executive directors: Chris is writing a book on succession planning, scenario planning and developing leaders on a shoestring budget, and would love to interview you. Get in touch at https://www.myleadershippotential.com/podcast Next week: we dive into resilience.
October 6, 202628 min
How to Get Real Agreement When Everyone Cares Too Much, with Elizabeth Schuster & Marissa Ferrari
Strategic planning is hard in any organization. In a nonprofit, where people's identities are tied to the mission, every priority feels personal, and every cut feels like a betrayal of values. In this Season 4 premiere, Lucie and Chris talk with Elizabeth Schuster and Marissa Ferrari, co-leaders of Sustainable Economies, about what really happens in the room when passionate people have to decide together. They share how they design processes that expect conflict instead of fearing it, why "safe to disagree" still isn't enough to prevent false agreement, and the inner work facilitators and leaders need to do so they can stay steady when the room gets tense. Meet our guests Elizabeth Schuster , Environmental Economist and Partner, Sustainable Economies Elizabeth is an economic professional with 25 years of experience in sustainability and community development, in the U.S. and around the world. She was educated at Oberlin College and the University of Arizona. She has partnered with conservation nonprofits, park districts, museums and botanical gardens, coalitions, agricultural organizations, and municipalities. Her research covers regenerative agriculture economics, food production, and ecosystem service valuation. Her work has earned national recognition, including awards from the American Farm Bureau Federation and the NJ Association of Floodplain Management. She is passionate about bridging gaps and bringing data and strategy together to drive positive change. Marissa Ferrari , Creative Director, Sustainable Economies Marissa is a researcher, brand strategist, and facilitator and a trusted advisor to local and national leaders in conservation, parks, land protection, and environmental education. She uses a research-driven approach to shape strategy, messaging, and organizational identity, helping mission-driven organizations unite purpose and potential to reach their most ambitious goals. Over 25 years, she has worked her way up from writer to senior director. She has led dozens of large-scale research, strategy, and branding projects for nonprofits, public agencies, and coalitions, including American Forests' Tree Equity initiative, the High Line Network's Grand River Network river corridor revitalization, and the Cleveland Museum of Natural History's land trust. She is certified by the International Association for Sustainable Economy (IASE) as an International Sustainable Business Advisor. Sustainable Economies is a strategic planning, branding and communications, and applied research firm based in Wooster, Ohio. It helps mission-driven organizations turn their passion into strategic plans that make a difference, not a pretty binder that sits on a shelf. 🔗 https://sustainableeconomies.com 🔗 Elizabeth on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethfschuster/ 🔗 Marissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marissaferrari What we cover Why treating planning as a learning experience makes people braver and their ideas bolder The expert who found out nobody understood his work, and why data from stakeholders landed where feedback from facilitators couldn't Naming the low point in advance: telling teams upfront that there will be a moment when it feels like everything is falling apart What facilitators do with their own nerves and the urge to please , even after decades of experience The over-explaining trap and the question-stacking habit When asking for more input is avoiding a decision , and what that costs in time, money, and trust Setting decision points and "how much evidence is enough" before you start Loss aversion and why the most mission-driven staff find it hardest to let go Why teams smile and nod even when it's safe to disagree, and the step-by-step agreement method that fixes it Notable quotes "Just because someone is annoyed doesn't mean we said the wrong thing." (Elizabeth) "Even if you create an environment where people feel safe to disagree, you still get smiling and nodding." (Elizabeth) "They were trying to avoid conflict by having everybody reach consensus, but instead created a lot more conflict by avoiding the decision themselves." (Marissa) "When they see that we can navigate through that tension, it restores their trust in us as facilitators, but it also deepens their trust in themselves and in each other." (Marissa) "That is still something that I have to coach myself about to this day." (Marissa, on nerves before big meetings) "No nonprofit professional in the history of ever has wanted to sunset their favorite program." (Elizabeth) Listener challenge In your next team decision, don't take a nod as agreement. Pause and ask: "Can someone say back, in their own words, what we just agreed to?" If you hear two different versions, you've found the real conversation. Bonus inner-game rep: the next time someone looks frustrated with you, notice the urge to explain again. Take one breath and let the silence do the work. Your hosts Lucie Tesarova is the founder of MindFittery and an ICF PCC-credentialed coach who helps leaders build the mental fitness and emotional intelligence to lead through high-stakes conversations. Her focus is the inner game: what happens inside you before, during, and after the hard moment. 🔗 https://www.mindfittery.com | Newsletter: https://mindfittery.kit.com/profile Chris Wong helps leaders and for-purpose organizations build intentional cultures and systems through End Accidental Leadership. His focus is the outer game: structures, culture, and how teams really work. 🔗 https://www.myleadershippotential.com | https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc 📘 Download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders: https://www.tinyurl.com/difficultplaybook Listen, watch, subscribe 🎧 Podcast: https://tas-difficultconversations.captivate.fm ▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TAS.difficultconversations ✉️ Newsletter: https://the-art-science-of-difficult-conversations-podcast.kit.com/ The Art & Science of Difficult Conversations: when you communicate better, you live better.
July 7, 202614 min
Is AI making us end the show?
Sorry for the click-bait title, but as season 3 comes to an end, Lucie and Chris have some big news to share. They also spend a few minutes talking about the rise of AI, especially how it impacts difficult conversations. Then they share some BIG news for listeners. How will you spend the summer? Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
June 30, 202622 min
How to facilitate heavy group topics (Part 2 with Frank Velasquez, Jr.)
In part 2 of their conversation, Frank joins Chris and Lucie to talk through the steps of facilitating restorative circles, the preparation that makes group conversations successful, and the secrets of facilitating well. Together, they go through practical tips for facilitators and leaders to create safe, impactful spaces for dialogue and healing. Key Takeaways: Setting the right container is crucial for meaningful conversations. Preparation involves both logistical planning and internal readiness. Facilitators should be flexible and follow organic conversation cues. Incorporating joy and positive memories helps balance heavy topics. Facilitators need to recognize emotional fatigue and practice self-care. About Frank (He/Him/His) Storyteller Extraordinaire, Social Justice Warrior, and Relationship Cultivator! In relentless pursuit of racial and gender equity, Frank’s warmth brings folks together to talk through the tough stuff. To Frank, every person’s story matters like each ingredient in a yummy bowl of gumbo. Each standing on its own, but together making something unforgettable. From major conferences like the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference, AFP ICON, and AFP Lead to training rooms everywhere from Walt Disney World to the MGM Grand Las Vegas, Frank has reached thousands of folks with narratives that just hit different, leaving each group invigorated with his unique blend of storytelling magic, quick wit, and social justice fire! As the Founder of 4 Da Hood and the visionary behind the Ascending Leaders in Color leadership program, Frank forges pathways for Peeps of Color to step into their power - authentically, courageously, and with unapologetic joy. Because for Frank, advancing equity isn’t just a job - it's about thriving in a world our ancestors dreamed for us, a world where communities of color have the same access and opportunity to build their generational wealth. And he's doing it one connection, one story, one courageous conversation at a time. Connect with Frank: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/fvelasquezjr/ Contact Frank directly: frank@4dahood.com 4DaHood - https://4dahood.com Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
June 23, 202620 min
How to use Restorative Justice Circles to lead better groups (Part 1 with Frank Velasquez Jr.)
In this week’s episode, Frank Velásquez Jr. joins Chris and Lucie to share his journey into restorative justice, leadership as a person of color, and how restorative circles can transform organizational culture. Discover practical insights on authentic leadership, facilitation, and creating safe spaces for difficult conversations. Leaders of color often struggle with authenticity due to organizational and societal pressures. The importance of being authentic to yourself What are Restorative Justice Circles and how are they different from other types of group facilitation? How can you use agreements to change the tone of your group sessions About Frank (He/Him/His) Storyteller Extraordinaire, Social Justice Warrior, and Relationship Cultivator! In relentless pursuit of racial and gender equity, Frank’s warmth brings folks together to talk through the tough stuff. To Frank, every person’s story matters like each ingredient in a yummy bowl of gumbo. Each standing on its own, but together making something unforgettable. From major conferences like the Nonprofit Storytelling Conference, AFP ICON, and AFP Lead to training rooms everywhere from Walt Disney World to the MGM Grand Las Vegas, Frank has reached thousands of folks with narratives that just hit different, leaving each group invigorated with his unique blend of storytelling magic, quick wit, and social justice fire! As the Founder of 4 Da Hood and the visionary behind the Ascending Leaders in Color leadership program, Frank forges pathways for Peeps of Color to step into their power - authentically, courageously, and with unapologetic joy. Because for Frank, advancing equity isn’t just a job - it's about thriving in a world our ancestors dreamed for us, a world where communities of color have the same access and opportunity to build their generational wealth. And he's doing it one connection, one story, one courageous conversation at a time. Connect with Frank: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankvelasquezjr/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/frankvelasquezjr Restorative Justice Practices - International Institute for Restorative Practices - https://www.iirp.edu/ 4DaHood - Organization founded by Frank Velásquez Jr. - https://4dahood.org/ Ascending Leaders of Color Program - https://ascendingleaders.org/ Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
June 16, 202621 min
How to Communicate as a Leader when Times are Tough
In this episode, Will Hobart shares insights on leadership, transparency, managing anxiety, and building trust within organizations. Discover practical strategies for effective communication and authentic leadership in challenging times. About our guest: Will Hobart is an education leader, strategist, and nonprofit executive with more than 15 years of experience helping organizations navigate complex challenges, build strong partnerships, and create opportunities for student success. His career has included roles as a middle school teacher, school district administrator, and nonprofit leader, providing a unique perspective on how communication, trust, and collaboration drive meaningful change. Throughout his career, Will has led efforts to expand college access, strengthen career pathways, and improve outcomes for young people. He is passionate about bringing people together across diverse perspectives to solve complex problems and create lasting impact. Will believes that many of the most important breakthroughs in organizations and communities begin with honest, courageous conversations. He has led teams through periods of growth, uncertainty, and transformation, and has seen how empathy, curiosity, and clarity can strengthen relationships and move people toward shared goals. Contact Will: Will Hobart - LinkedIn Golden Apple Foundation for Excellence in Teaching Connect with us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
June 9, 202638 min
When your team isn't on the same page
How do you align a team that doesn't seem to be reading the same page, or even the same book? In Part 1 of our conversation with nonprofit leader Will Hobart, we dig into one of the hardest tensions in leadership: caring deeply about your people while still driving toward clear goals and results. Will shares the lessons that shaped him, from a fifth-grade conflict-resolution program to the rigid, resource-constrained world of public education, to scaling a 90-year-old nonprofit. Along the way, he gets honest about the moment hard feedback forced him to confront the gap between his intent and his impact, and how he learned that his team's different needs and ambitions weren't a lack of drive but just a different seat at the table. If you've ever felt pulled between the strategy you're accountable for and the empathy your team needs from you, this one's for you. About our guest: Will Hobart is an education leader, strategist, and nonprofit executive with more than 15 years of experience helping organizations navigate complex challenges, build strong partnerships, and create opportunities for student success. His career has included roles as a middle school teacher, school district administrator, and nonprofit leader, providing a unique perspective on how communication, trust, and collaboration drive meaningful change. Throughout his career, Will has led efforts to expand college access, strengthen career pathways, and improve outcomes for young people. He is passionate about bringing people together across diverse perspectives to solve complex problems and create lasting impact. Will believes that many of the most important breakthroughs in organizations and communities begin with honest, courageous conversations. He has led teams through periods of growth, uncertainty, and transformation, and has seen how empathy, curiosity, and clarity can strengthen relationships and move people toward shared goals. Contact us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
June 2, 202624 min
Unlock Your Potential with CIDER Strategies: A Step-by-Step Guide
In this interview with leadership coach Lucie Tesarova, Tina Paulus-Krause shares her transformative methodology, CIDER strategies, designed to help individuals achieve clarity, set intentions, maintain discipline, and manage energy for personal and professional growth. Discover practical tools for self-awareness, overcoming burnout, and creating a meaningful leadership legacy. 00:04 The CIDER Methodology for Transformation 12:16 Self-Awareness and Grace in Leadership 16:11 Key Takeaways and Legacy in Leadership Resources & Links Tina Paulus Krause - Official Website Your Leadership Legacy Podcast Connect with Tina: LinkedIn Website Contact us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
May 26, 202633 min
From Burnout to Bliss: Transformational Leadership and Self-Awareness with Tina Paulus Krause (part 1)
In this inspiring interview, Tina Pullous Kraus shares her transformative journey from burnout and personal struggles to becoming a transformation trainer. Discover practical insights on emotional intelligence, authentic leadership, and how to create lasting change in your life and relationships. Chapters 00:00 From Burnout to Bliss: A Personal Journey 04:54 Generational Healing and Transformation 10:18 Awareness and Emotional Intelligence 13:47 Difficult Conversations: Starting with Ourselves 18:18 Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Shame 23:11 Redefining Leadership: Collaboration Over Control 25:05 Defining Core Values Resources & Links Tina Paulus Krause - Official Website Your Leadership Legacy Podcast Connect with Tina: LinkedIn Website Contact us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
May 19, 202620 min
How to address underperformance when the employee is a friend (Part 2 with Ashley Cox)
In our follow up to last week’s episode, Ashley and Chris continue talking about navigating difficult conversations, especially when dealing with friends or family in a professional setting. Especially when they start bringing things back up or get more defensive, it can feel like you’re on the edge of losing an employee AND a friend. Hear how Ashley walks us through: - How to address underperformance in friends or family. - How to maintain your humanity to be an effective leader. - How to set clear boundaries and expectations prevent future conflicts. - How to use empathy and understanding to resolve issues with friends or family. - How to take ownership to turn problems into opportunities for growth. About Ashley Ashley Cox, PHR, SHRM-CP is a leadership mentor for ambitious women business owners who have a team but no time. She empowers them to become courageous and confident leaders, and build high-performance teams they can trust and rely on ( without constantly chasing them to get things done ). Ashley is also a sought-after speaker, author of the book Transform Your Stories , and host of The Impact Ripple Podcast Connect with Ashley Website : www.ashleycox.co Book : www.ashleycox.co/transform Podcast: www.ashleycox.co/podcast LinkedIn : www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyncox Instagram : www.instagram.com/ashleycox.co Facebook : www.facebook.com/ashleycox.co Contact us: Email – tas.difficultconversations@gmail.com Chris – https://www.myleadershippotential.com | www.linkedin.com/in/chriswonglmhc | download the Difficult Conversation Playbook for Leaders Lucie – www.mindfittery.com | www.linkedin.com/in/lucietesarova and take the Saboteur Assessment
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