Station 4 Negotiation

Hosted by Gene Killian

Business Education

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Jun 2026

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Station 4 Negotiation: where real stories unlock powerful negotiation strategies. Hosted by Gene Killian, a trial lawyer with 40 years of experience, we skip the gimmicks and distill practical lessons from real-world deals. Understand the art of negotiation through stories, not lists of rules. Here, you'll find practical insights that will help you communicate, collaborate, and close deals with confidence... and change the way you approach every conversation. Remember: negotiation is life.

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60 recent

June 16, 202640 min

#61 – How to Frame Your Picture: What to Do When You Can't Meet the Other Side in the Middle

Who does the frame of a negotiation actually belong to — and how do you make it belong to you? We still believe in building a bridge — lowering the temperature, showing respect, finding the deal in the middle. That's the right move most of the time, and we're not walking it back. But sometimes you simply can't operate inside the other side's frame. So what do you do then? This week on S4N, Gene works through that question using a fascinating negotiation at the end of World War II. One side came to the table convinced they had a deal to make, and a real prize to offer. The other side refused to negotiate on those terms at all. You've felt this tension before. The buyer who insists on talking price when the real issue is scope. The vendor who treats their standard terms as the only terms. The counterpart who keeps pulling you back onto their turf. Sometimes you can meet them where they are. But when you can't, this episode gives you the moves to make. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Victory '45: The End of the War in Eight Surrenders by James Holland and Al Murray

June 2, 202632 min

#60 – EAT Your Words: The Communication Framework the NYPD Just Used to Save a Life

A few weeks ago in Brooklyn, a woman climbed over a Plexiglas barrier and out onto the ledge of a 54-story building. The whole thing was caught on video. In a matter of minutes, two NYPD officers did something most of us wouldn't have the first idea how to do — they talked her back to safety. Watch it closely and you realize almost nothing those officers said was an accident. They chose the order of their words carefully, they asked questions instead of giving orders, and one small physical gesture changed the entire exchange. None of that was luck. It was training, and it's a lot more useful on an ordinary day than you'd guess. This week on S4N, Gene uses that rescue — along with a story about a veteran cop quieting an angry crowd at 3 a.m. — to uncover a communication discipline called "verbal judo" and the "EAT" framework that sits underneath it. None of this is meant to make light of a life-and-death moment by setting it next to a garden-variety business negotiation. Instead, it's meant to teach you a method for defusing intense situations, no matter what they look like. If these moves hold up in a moment like that, they'll hold up in yours. The client who's furious about a missed deadline. The partner digging in on a deal that's falling apart. The employee who walks into your office already on the defensive. Same method, every time. The setting was extreme. The lesson isn't. Remember: negotiation is life. This episode discusses suicide. Please, if you or someone you know is struggling, call or text 988, the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. You do not have to face this alone. There are people who will help if you give them the chance. Mentioned in this episode: NYPD ledge rescue bodycam footage, Brooklyn (May 2026) — contains a real suicide-attempt rescue; viewer discretion advised Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion by George J. Thompson and Jerry B. Jenkins

May 19, 202641 min

#59 – The Bananas Are Dead: Why The Collapse of Spirit Airlines Should Haunt Every Dealmaker

How do you set a deal up for success when the most dangerous forces in your deal are the ones you can't negotiate with at all? You've probably heard the news: two weeks ago, Spirit Airlines — the ultra-low-cost carrier known to air traffic controllers as "the Bananas" — shut down for good. After 34 years of operations and a spotless safety record, 17,000 jobs went with it. Now everyone's asking: who killed Spirit Airlines? But dealmakers should be asking something else entirely: how do you make sure your company isn't next? This week on S4N, Gene unpacks the Spirit Airlines collapse through a negotiation lens, not a political one. It's a story of failed mergers, shifting ground, and the question no one at the table bothered to ask: who else has the power to kill this deal? An eerily similar collapse played out twenty years ago, and no one in the industry, or in government, seems to have learned from it. But you can. This episode is about more than an airline. It's about what's missing from your map of a deal: the players you didn't account for, the assumptions you didn't stress-test, and the conditions that can change without warning. If you've ever watched a deal unravel from forces outside the deal itself, this episode will help you see the next one coming. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: 10-10-10: A Life-Transforming Idea by Suzy Welch The West Point Way of Leadership by Larry R. Donnithorne "Who Killed Spirit?", article by David Thornton for Ordinary Times, May 3, 2026 Video of Jon Jackson's retirement flight celebration

May 5, 202633 min

#58 – Lessons from NASA: How to Negotiate Like a Scientist

This week on S4N, Gene leans into the recent public fascination with NASA – intensified by Artemis II's journey to the moon – to explore a different kind of mission: how to negotiate like a scientist. Drawing on ideas from organizational psychologist Adam Grant and his book Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know, Gene breaks down why most of us default to defending our views instead of testing them – and how that instinct limits our effectiveness at the table. Learn how to treat your opinions like hypotheses, how to pressure-test the other side's assumptions without triggering resistance, and how to replace certainty with curiosity without losing credibility or control. Along the way, Gene connects NASA's post-Challenger disaster shift toward a learning culture – where questioning isn't weakness, it's responsibility – to the kind of environment great negotiators create: one where people feel safe enough to speak honestly, challenge ideas, and uncover what actually matters. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant The Fighting 69th, the 1940 film directed by William Keighley

April 21, 202638 min

#57 – Playing the Long Game: What the WNBA Got Right About Deals That Work When You Win

Negotiation forces a tough question: are we fighting over slices – or building something bigger together? Most deals don't fail because of bad intentions. They fail because the structure only works for one side. This week on S4N, Gene uses the WNBA's new collective bargaining agreement to zero in on a core business challenge: how do you build a revenue-sharing deal that actually aligns incentives instead of creating friction? One side wants a bigger share of the upside. The other needs to manage risk and keep the business viable. If you've ever negotiated comp, a partnership, a client deal, or even an internal budget, you've felt this tension. This episode gets into what actually moves things forward – and how to stop dividing value, and instead think about how to structure it. When the structure is right, success scales for both sides. When it isn't, your deal doesn't hold up, and you find yourself right back at the negotiating table (or in court). Because the goal isn't just to close the deal – it's to build one that works when things start going right. Remember: negotiation is life.

April 7, 202632 min

#56 – By the Numbers: Why "Strong" Data Makes a Weak Case

You've heard it before: support your position with data. But what if the data doesn't hold up? This week on S4N, Gene unpacks the chilling case of Sally Clark – a British solicitor wrongfully convicted by numbers that looked airtight and were completely wrong – to expose how numbers can distort, not clarify, high-stakes decisions. We break down the prosecutor's fallacy, the critical difference between precision and accuracy, and why data that appears authoritative can be fundamentally wrong. More importantly, we translate this into practical negotiation insight, so you can interrogate data, challenge assumptions, and avoid blindly trusting expert analysis. When you trust data too much, and when your belief in your case outpaces what the data can actually support, decisions fall apart. This episode exposes a simple truth: the quality of your decisions is only as good as the quality of the information behind them. Whether you're negotiating a deal or evaluating risk, this episode will sharpen your skepticism – and your judgment. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: The Maths of Life and Death by Kit Yates

March 24, 202629 min

#55 – I'm Not Lovin' It: Why Getting Attention Isn't Getting Buy-In – Or Getting Deals Done

The recent viral McDonald's CEO video got what most brands and companies are chasing: attention. But attention isn't the same as buy-in – and it definitely isn't the same as getting a deal done. This week on S4N, Gene unpacks what most people are missing when they look at moments like this – and why attention alone can be misleading, especially in sales and negotiation. If you've ever had a conversation that didn't move forward, interest that didn't convert, or a deal that stalled for reasons you couldn't quite explain, this episode breaks down what's really going on – and what to do differently if you want your message to actually land. Getting attention might start the conversation. But only credibility gets the deal done. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Video posted by Chris Kempczinski on February 3, 2026 "McDonald's C.E.O. Takes a Big Bite Out of a Burger. Maybe Scratch 'Big'." by Victor Mather for The New York Times, March 5, 2026 "An 'epic fail' by McDonald's turned into a marketing win" by Megan McArdle for The Washington Post, March 15, 2026

March 10, 202631 min

#54 – No Hardball for Harbaugh: How to Show Interest Without Losing Leverage

When you really want a deal, how do you show it – without tipping the balance against you? This week on S4N, Gene breaks down a high-profile NFL coaching negotiation to explore a common challenge in negotiation: how much interest should you actually show when you want a deal? Using the story of John Harbaugh's recent talks with the New York Giants, Gene walks through how both sides navigated a delicate balance – signaling interest without appearing too eager and giving away leverage. Along the way, we look at the small moments that shape negotiations, from subtle signals to personal touches (including a plate of chocolate chip cookies). In this episode, Gene covers: How to show real interest without weakening your negotiating position Why appearing too eager can shift leverage in a deal The role of rapport and patience in high-stakes negotiations Practical lessons you can apply to contracts, clients, and career decisions If you've ever wondered how experienced negotiators balance enthusiasm with restraint – or worried about revealing too much too soon – this episode offers a few insights from the field. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: "The Inside Story of the Giants' John Harbaugh Deal and the Talks That Saved It" by Ian O'Connor for The Athletic, January 19, 2026

February 24, 202640 min

#53 – Great Lessons from the Great Depression: Negotiating In Uncertain Times

This week on S4N, we step into the turmoil surrounding the 1929 stock market crash and the international debt crisis it exposed — a moment when information was unreliable, risk was rising, and decisions at the table carried consequences far beyond the room. Using this period as a lens, we give you the tools seasoned negotiators rely on when certainty disappears. By contrasting Wall Street's speculative frenzy with the high-stakes reparations talks between David Sarnoff and German finance minister Hjalmar Schacht, Gene explores how perspective can shift a stalled negotiation, why endurance matters, and how to know whether the right people are in the room. This episode reframes negotiation as judgment, not just technique — and asks what it really takes to stay steady when everything around you isn't. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: 1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History – and How It Shattered a Nation by Andrew Ross Sorkin

February 10, 202633 min

#52 – Is The Russia-Ukraine Conflict Even Negotiable?: When Talks Don't Mean Progress

Is every conflict actually negotiable — or are some negotiations designed to fail from the start? This week on S4N, Gene examines the latest Russia-Ukraine negotiation efforts in Abu Dhabi through a negotiator's lens, not a political one. Instead of replaying headlines, he breaks down what seasoned dealmakers watch for beneath the surface: incentive misalignment, signaling vs. substance, internal power pressures, mediator choice, and the difference between visible activity and real movement. Looking at the newest diplomatic round and the unusual mix of players involved, Gene explores why who's in the room — and what they truly want — can matter more than any proposal on the table. He also challenges the common assumption that continued talks automatically signal progress. For business leaders and founders, the takeaway is practical: some deals stall not because of tactics, but because the structure is wrong from the beginning. This episode helps you recognize when the other side isn't positioned to agree, when a process is mostly optics, and when your leverage is being misunderstood — so you can adjust your strategy before time and credibility are wasted. Not every negotiation is winnable — and knowing that early is a competitive advantage. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: "Trump's Ukraine Charade" by Julia Ioffe, February 5, 2026 for Puck News The June 18, 2024 episode of S4N: "#11 – Saving The Trouble(s): How To Handle Belligerent Negotiations, As Told By The Northern Ireland Conflict"