Station 4 Negotiation

Hosted by Gene Killian

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Oct 2026

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Station 4 Negotiation: where real stories unlock powerful negotiation strategies. Hosted by Gene Killian, a trial lawyer with 40 years of experience, we skip the gimmicks and distill practical lessons from real-world deals. Understand the art of negotiation through stories, not lists of rules. Here, you'll find practical insights that will help you communicate, collaborate, and close deals with confidence... and change the way you approach every conversation. Remember: negotiation is life.

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October 20, 202627 min

#70 – Iced Coffee in an Interview: What You Signal Before You Speak

Is it okay to bring an iced coffee into a job interview? A recruiter's TikTok recently asked the question, and the internet split along generational lines. To younger candidates, it's just a drink. To Gen X and boomers, it says casual, unprepared, and running late. But the coffee doesn't mean anything on its own. It means whatever the person across the table decides it means — and in a job interview, which is its own kind of negotiation, that person isn't you. The same thing plays out on bigger stages. At a state dinner with President Trump, Xi Jinping skipped his usual Western business suit for a high-collared Mao suit. Trump had spent the day praising their friendship. Xi answered with his wardrobe: we'll talk trade, but we aren't changing who we are. This week on S4N, Gene, a self-proclaimed boomer who admits the coffee wouldn't bother him, uses both stories, plus one blurted line from The Godfather, to get at a bigger question: what are you telling the other side before you say a word? Every negotiation has a purpose. The coffee, the bag you bring, the offhand comment in the lobby — none of it is neutral. You can be right that it shouldn't matter and still lose an offer because it did. Everything you do in a negotiation sends a message. Here's how to ensure it's the one you meant. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: "How an Iced Coffee in a Job Interview Sparked a Raging Etiquette Debate" by Julia Munslow, The Wall Street Journal, September 25, 2026 "Deep Divides and Missed Deals Cloud Trump-Xi Visit" by Lingling Wei, Yoko Kubota, and Philip Wegmann, The Wall Street Journal, September 25, 2026 "What Xi's Grip on His Wife's Hand Tells Us About Power in China" by Lingling Wei, The Wall Street Journal, September 29, 2026 The Godfather , the 1972 film directed by Francis Ford Coppola

October 6, 202628 min

#69 – The Price Is The Price: How to Negotiate Without Lying to Your Customer

If you're going to buy one book on negotiation this year, make it this one. Most price negotiations begin with a lie. Each side asks for more than it expects to get, both sides know it, and the rest is a slow shuffle of offers, counteroffers, and "that's the best I can do." Todd Caponi's book Four Levers Negotiating asks a simple question: what happens when one side stops playing that game? This week on S4N, Gene digs into Caponi's system. Caponi wrote his framework for B2B sellers up against corporate procurement, and he's modest about how far it reaches. Gene thinks he's selling it short. As he walks through one of the book's stories, about a frustrated buyer who insists on monthly billing because that's how everyone does it, he shows that Caponi's approach works well beyond the sales call. The moves that close the deal are the same ones great negotiators have always relied on, from FBI hostage negotiators to diplomats. They just happen in a different room. You've been on both sides of this. The counterpart who's venting but sounds like they're attacking. The "policy" that turns out to be habit. The discount you gave away before you'd thought it through. Being straight about how your price is built doesn't weaken your position. It may be the strongest position you have. A special thank you to our friend Professor Jeff Hoyle of Central Michigan University for putting this book in Gene's hands. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Four Levers Negotiating: The Simple, Counterintuitive Way to Higher Deal Values and Lasting Trust by Todd Caponi (Matt Holt Books, 2026) Jeffrey Z. Rubin, "Negotiation: An Introduction to Some Issues and Themes," American Behavioral Scientist , Vol. 27, No. 2 (1983) Station 4 Negotiation Episode #9 – Brains Over Brawn: When Getting Frustrated Gets You Nowhere (May 21, 2024) Gene's email: gene@station4negotiation.com

September 22, 202630 min

#68 – Working 9 to 5: How to Negotiate Like Dolly Parton

In 1974, Dolly Parton was 28 and had just left The Porter Wagoner Show to go solo. As her going-away song, she had just written the now-iconic "I Will Always Love You." Then Colonel Tom Parker, Elvis's famously shrewd manager, called: the King wanted to record it. Could she be at Studio B tomorrow? She said she "went out of her mind." But the afternoon before the session, the Colonel called back with one more thing. This week on S4N, Gene works through that phone call using Martha Ackmann's new biography Ain't Nobody's Fool: The Life and Times of Dolly Parton . He looks at why the other side wants you emotionally committed before any terms are discussed (Gene calls it the "puppy first" technique), why the biggest demand so often shows up at the last minute, and what changes when you're dealing with a gatekeeper instead of the person who decides. Then he takes the same questions to two very different arenas, one of them his own practice, where the answers were harder than they looked. So that the next time a deal feels done, you'll know to ask one more question: leaving emotion aside, is this in my best interest, both now and years from now? Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Ain't Nobody's Fool: The Life and Times of Dolly Parton by Martha Ackmann Dolly Parton's Imagination Library

September 8, 202658 min

#67 – Talk Is Cheap: Four Problems Every Dealmaker Runs Into (On Both Sides of the Table)

Usually, almost nothing about how the other side of a deal actually thinks survives into the record. The Paris Peace Accords are the rare exception. Both governments kept meticulous records of the whole ugly business, a lot of it has since been declassified, and the historian Pierre Asselin — whose book A Bitter Peace is the source for this episode — got into the North Vietnamese archives as well as the American ones. All of that makes the Paris negotiation an unusually clean look at four problems every dealmaker eventually runs into, with the internal reasoning of both sides sitting right there on the page. This week on S4N, Gene works through Paris as a negotiation, not as a verdict on the war, on the men who ran it, or on anyone's politics. First, what getting tough actually buys you. One side escalated hard to break a stalemate, and it worked — the other side came back to the table. Then they signed essentially the document they had already agreed to months earlier, and the escalation cost the man who ordered it dearly at home. So did it work? Gene's answer is more useful than yes or no. There's a specific thing you should be pricing an aggressive move against before you make it, and almost nobody does. Second: we've talked plenty on this show about identifying the party who can kill your deal from outside the room. This episode is about what comes after. Gene explores how to close a counterpart who has nowhere left to go and, moreover, what actually becomes of an objection you override. (Hint: it doesn't disappear.) Third: retrading. Both sides here reopened terms they had already closed, until the pattern got almost farcical — nine concessions made, withdrawn, and six of them made again. Most people's instinct is to match the other side move for move. Gene's fix is structural instead, and it has to be in place before anyone touches a settled term. And lastly: enforcement — where the first two ideas collide. This agreement had no shortage of implementation machinery: commissions, protocols, field teams, 1,100 monitors. It was built to fail, and the flaw is visible in the design if you know what you're looking at. The same flaw had already failed in Vietnam once before, for eighteen years, and they built it again anyway. Gene replaces "how will this deal be implemented?" with a sharper question, and adds one worth asking about any oversight structure you're handed. Smaller stakes, same shapes. The term you thought was settled, back on the table because you opened the door first. The compliance sign-off that requires everybody to agree, which means it requires the one person who'd rather it didn't happen. The concession you won by force that shows up again during delivery. This episode handles how to deal with all of it. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: A Bitter Peace: Washington, Hanoi, and the Making of the Paris Agreement by Pierre Asselin

August 25, 202652 min

#66 – Paramount, Warner Bros., and the Clause Nobody Asked For: Guaranteeing What You Don't Control

There's a lot going on in the world right now, so you'd be forgiven for not following the corporate war Paramount is currently fighting. But here's a rule that keeps holding up: when the name Paramount is attached to a deal, there is going to be drama. This one has more than most. The biggest media transaction of the decade — a film studio, a streamer, a stack of cable channels, and CNN. Netflix on one side of it, and then suddenly not. Sixty-six jurisdictions have signed off on this deal, the Justice Department and the European Commission among them. And it is going absolutely nowhere. What stopped it is worth knowing. But it isn't the interesting part. The interesting part is a single clause in a contract signed back in February. Nobody demanded it. Nobody negotiated for it. The man now on the hook for it wrote it himself — and then raised the number twice, when nobody was asking him to. At the time, it looked like the smartest thing he did all year. This week on S4N, Gene gets into what it really costs to buy your way past an objection instead of removing it, and why the terms that win you a deal are so often the ones that come back for you later. Along the way: the three kinds of people who can wreck your deal, and why the dangerous ones never show up in the paperwork. Why whoever picks the moment gets to pick who bleeds. Why Netflix lost this auction and may have come out ahead anyway. A sunk-cost error so common that reputable business publications are committing it in print, in coverage of this very deal. And the three questions worth running against any agreement that has started to feel heavy. You don't need billions on the table for this one. It's the deadline you accepted to land the account. The headcount you promised to get the reorg approved. Anything you ever guaranteed that was never yours to control. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Ellison's Escape Hatch & The Zaslav Lottery Ticket by Dylan Byers & William D. Cohan for Puck News, July 31, 2026 David Ellison: In Defense of the Paramount-Warner Deal by David Ellison for the New York Times, August 4, 2026 Episode 41 of the Station 4 Negotiation podcast, "#41 – Are You Smarter Than a Lawyer? The "FAFO" Negotiation Style & How It's Ruining Your Deals"

August 11, 202637 min

#65 – Make Them Do Their Homework: Elon Musk, Twitter, and the Case for Two-Sided Due Diligence

The most expensive move Elon Musk made buying Twitter wasn't the price. It was three words: "waive due diligence." This week on S4N, Gene works through the Musk–Twitter saga — which resulted in a multibillion-dollar jury verdict and an SEC settlement — through a negotiation lens and compares it to a similarly catastrophic deal from the 1980s, so that you know what due diligence actually means. But this episode isn't only about your own homework. There's something most dealmakers get wrong – and it's why you not only want, but need, the other side to do theirs, too. Gene explains why the counterpart who waives the inspection is so often the one who bolts — and why the sophisticated move is to slow them down. And then the hardest case of all: the gung-ho client who's already decided, who set the clock himself, and who did not hire you to hear "no." You can't argue a person like that out of a bad deal. So what actually moves them? You've sat in all three seats. This one hands you the moves for each. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Done Deal: Insights from Interviews with the World's Best Negotiators by Michael Benoliel with Linda Cashdan The Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate: The Spiritual Legacy of the Master by Gichin Funakoshi

July 28, 202642 min

#64 – The Memorandum of Misunderstanding: What Negotiators Can Learn From Trump's Failed Iran Deal

On the evening of June 17th, 2026, between courses of a state dinner at Versailles, President Trump signed a memorandum of understanding meant to end the war with Iran. But shortly after, the shooting started again, leading commentator Mike Baker to aptly dub the document a "Memorandum of Misunderstanding." It's easy to read this situation as a verdict on one man's dealmaking... but there's something else in there for the rest of us. This week on S4N, Gene works through the collapse as a negotiator, not a pundit, because the mistakes that sank the memorandum aren't really about Trump, or Iran, or a dinner in France. They're the same ones any of us makes — misreading strength, chasing the wrong leverage, and signing our name to something we only hope will hold. Which leaves the question that actually matters to you: if the most powerful country on earth can sign a deal and watch it fall apart almost immediately, how can YOU keep your next deal from going the same way? You've felt versions of this. The person who threatens to walk away but wants the deal just as badly as you do. The agreement you rush to sign just to keep things moving — until the piece you left for "later" is the piece that comes back to bite you. The person who was never in the room but can kill the whole thing with one email. They're all the same mistakes, just with smaller stakes. This episode helps you see the next one coming. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: The Art of War by Sun Tzu Mike Baker's President's Daily Brief podcast

July 14, 202638 min

#63 – Find Your Red Helicopter: The Negotiation Audit a Spreadsheet Can't Do

A man walks into a company that has already gone bankrupt twice. On paper, it has about six weeks left. The spreadsheet says what every lender wants to hear: liquidate and turn out the lights. But one man didn't buy it. James Rhee, the businessman who rescued clothier Ashley Stewart, had a feeling the retailer's numbers were leaving something out. So he did something strange for a finance guy — he got up from the desk, walked the floor, and went looking for what the balance sheet couldn't tell him. A spreadsheet is good at counting. But is it any good at value? It can tell you what something costs, but that isn't quite the same as what it's worth to you, to the other side, or to the deal. This episode uses the rescue of clothing retailer Ashley Stewart to show why the best audit rarely fits on a spreadsheet. A fuller audit doesn't just change what you see on the page. It changes the way you sit down at the table. Because the person with the most data and the person who's best informed are not always the same person. And one of them tends to win. Here's how to bring your spreadsheet without letting it do your thinking for you. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Red Helicopter – A Parable For Our Times: Lead Change with Kindness (Plus a Little Math) by James Rhee "The Value of Kindness at Work, " a TED Talk by James Rhee Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion by George J. Thompson and Jerry B. Jenkins "#60 – EAT Your Words: The Communication Framework the NYPD Just Used to Save a Life," the June 2, 2026 episode of Station 4 Negotiation

June 30, 202644 min

#62 – Wait for Your Pitch: What MLB's Current Labor Dispute Teaches About the Timing of Pressure

Most of us think leverage is about how much pressure we can bring. It isn't. It's about when you bring it. The same threat that wins in one moment is harmless in another. This week on S4N, Gene uses the looming Major League Baseball labor fight — players, owners, and a salary cap battle that could cancel the 2027 season — to examine the most overlooked variable in any negotiation: timing. Strip away the millions of dollars and this is an ordinary buyer-seller dispute. What makes it instructive is the clock. You've felt this without naming it. The deadline that lands in your busy season instead of your quiet one. The ultimatum timed to catch you short. Pressure applied too early is a tantrum; applied at the wrong moment, it costs you instead of them. But aimed at the other side's most expensive moment, the very same threat changes everything — without moving a single dollar. Your next contract renewal, board vote, or supplier ultimatum will come with a clock attached. This episode shows you how to read it — and how to time your own pressure so the cost lands on the other side of the table, not yours. Remember: negotiation is life. (And there's no crying in baseball.) Mentioned in this episode: "MLB salary cap would mean pay cut for players and eradication of amateur signing bonuses, union says", by Evan Drellich for The Athletic, June 1, 2026 (Editor's note: in the episode Gene refers to this article as appearing on January 1, 2026; the reporting actually ran in June 2026). Kelley Franco ( @threeinningfan) , Connecticut attorney and sports media commentator tracking the negotiations

June 16, 202640 min

#61 – How to Frame Your Picture: What to Do When You Can't Meet the Other Side in the Middle

Who does the frame of a negotiation actually belong to — and how do you make it belong to you? We still believe in building a bridge — lowering the temperature, showing respect, finding the deal in the middle. That's the right move most of the time, and we're not walking it back. But sometimes you simply can't operate inside the other side's frame. So what do you do then? This week on S4N, Gene works through that question using a fascinating negotiation at the end of World War II. One side came to the table convinced they had a deal to make, and a real prize to offer. The other side refused to negotiate on those terms at all. You've felt this tension before. The buyer who insists on talking price when the real issue is scope. The vendor who treats their standard terms as the only terms. The counterpart who keeps pulling you back onto their turf. Sometimes you can meet them where they are. But when you can't, this episode gives you the moves to make. Remember: negotiation is life. Mentioned in this episode: Victory '45: The End of the War in Eight Surrenders by James Holland and Al Murray

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