Risk! Engineers Talk Governance

Hosted by Richard Robinson & Gaye Francis

Technology Business ScienceInterviews guests

Website RSS feed

Episodes

Latest episode

Aug 2026

Language

EN-AU

About the show

Due Diligence and Risk Engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss governance in an engineering context. Richard & Gaye are co-directors at R2A and have seen the risk business industry become very complex. The OHS/WHS 'business', in particular, has turned into an industry, that appears to be costing an awful lot of organisations an awful lot of money for very little result. Richard & Gaye's point of difference is that they come from the Common Law viewpoint of what would be expected to be done in the event that something happens. Which is very, very different from just applying the risk management standard (for example). They combine common law and risk management to come to a due diligence process to make organisations look at what their risk issues are and, more importantly, what they have to have in place to manage these things. Due diligence is a governance exercise. You can't always be right, but what the courts demand of you is that you're always diligent

Listen to episodes

60 recent

September 27, 2026Episode 517 min

Update: New Zealand’s Health & Safety at Work Amendment Bill (Received Royal Assent)

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss New Zealand's Health and Safety at Work Amendment Bill, which received Royal Assent on 9 July and commences 1 April 2027. They unpack the shift towards a focus on critical risks for small business and an expanded role for approved codes of practice, and question whether this makes the regime more prescriptive than the "reasonably practicable" standard intended. The conversation moves to a Wellington waterfront fatality case and the accountability questions it raises for local councils and their executives. If you'd like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we'd love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye's work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au . Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction 00:40 – NZ Health and Safety at Work Amendment Bill receives Royal Assent (9 July), effect from 1 April 2027 01:23 – Speed of the Bill through NZ Parliament compared to Australia 01:53 – Key changes: focus on critical events for small business; expanded role of approved codes of practice 02:34 – Tension between codes of practice as a "minimum standard" and the "reasonably practicable" objective 03:16 – R2A's process for testing and documenting what's reasonable in the circumstances 04:36 – Richard's two closing workshop questions, and using AI as a "watchdog" for critical issues 05:16 – Richard's experiment running local AI models on Mac hardware 06:15 – Controls evolve even when critical issues don't; AI as a possible future control or QA system 06:56 – Port automation, wearable tracking tech, and phone-based hazard alerts 08:04 – Recap: NZ's shift to criticality focus and increased use of codes of practice 08:38 – Port of Auckland CEO Tony Gibson prosecution and its link to the new amendment 09:13 – Case study: Wellington waterfront fatality (referred by NZ associate Frank Stocks) 09:41 – Details of the incident and the coronial inquiry 10:40 – Prior fatality two years earlier (Sandy Calkin) and unimplemented lighting/edge-protection recommendations 11:08 – Criticism of Wellington council for rejecting the recommendations 12:04 – Who bears liability — councillors vs council executive 12:50 – Parallel with Owners Corporation committees and volunteer liability in Australia 14:15 – Debate: should businesses be expected to know all their hazards? 14:49 – Prescriptive vs "reasonably practicable" regimes, and why WA delayed its own WHS Act 15:44 – Will Australia follow New Zealand's more prescriptive approach? 17:04 – Which legislation will apply if the Wellington case proceeds to prosecution 17:36 – Close

September 20, 2026Episode 411 min

Risk, Uncertainty & Hallucinations

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and (Risk Engineer Achievement Award winner!) Gaye Francis discuss Risk, Uncertainty, and Hallucinations. Prompted by a recent course on AI and probability, Richards exaplins how large language models actually work as giant inference engines predicting the "most likely" next word, and why that's fundamentally different from genuine risk assessment. They explore why AI can widen the number of scenarios you can process without ever solving the harder problem of criticality — the rare, high-consequence events that haven't happened before, but still need to be found and controlled by human judgement. If you'd like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we'd love to hear from you: email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye's consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au , where you'll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for the quarterly newsletter to keep informed of our latest news and events. Apto PPE is also available via the R2A online store. Show Notes (00:56) Richard congratulates Gaye on winning the Risk Engineer Achievement Award at the Melbourne Engineering Excellence Awards, recognising 25+ years in risk due diligence, industry publications, podcasts, bushfire and public safety work, and advocacy for women in engineering (02:27) The founding of Apto (Women's) PPE and its impact at forcing the market to offer proper female PPE (04:30) Setting up today's topic: why people still default to thinking about risk as consequence and likelihood, rather than criticality and control (04:53) Richard's University of Helsinki AI course and the link between AI probability weighting and Markov chains, used at R2A for availability modelling (05:32) Different types of probability — fixed-outcome events (a coin toss) versus genuine future uncertainty (geopolitical shocks, oil markets) (06:18) How LLMs generate "hallucinations" (or Geoffrey Hinton's term, "confabulations"), tokenising context and predicting the statistically most likely next word, sometimes inventing plausible-sounding but false attributions (07:16–08:16) AI as a Monte Carlo-style tool: useful for running large numbers of trials fast, but this doesn't eliminate criticality, it only shrinks the pool while critical outcomes still have to be identified (09:08–09:42) The limits of AI's training cutoff; it can't flag risks that haven't happened before or reflect a rapidly changing context; identifying criticality still requires human judgement (10:26–11:12) The risk of the next generation treating AI output as "gospel" without questioning it (11:16–11:41) Wrap-up: risk as future uncertainty, AI as a tool for faster insight, but criticality and control remain R2A's core focus

September 13, 2026Episode 312 min

Reactive vs Proactive Due Diligence - What does R2A actually do?

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Proactive vs Reactive Due Diligence - what does R2A actually do? In their chat they unpack why timing changes everything and that proactive work happens before problems occur, while reactive work (like expert witness testimony) occurs after something's already gone wrong, and by then it's often too late to fix cheaply. Drawing on real examples, they explain why early engagement is cheaper, less adversarial, and allows genuine design fixes happen while there's still time. Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction 00:40 – Why this topic: R2A is often asked "what do you do?" 01:08 – The core frustration: being brought in for "proactive" due diligence too late in the project 01:39 – Why engineering-style thinking beats legal philosophy for avoiding mistakes 03:19 – Why lawyers and busy clients use R2A 03:54 – Bringing multiple stakeholders' views together into one structured conversation 04:22 – Case example: Brought in practively 05:24 – What proactive due diligence actually delivers: structured, defensible clarity 06:28 – Why proactive due diligence doesn't need to be difficult or expensive 06:58 – Aligning siloed stakeholders (commercial, legal, operational, regulatory) 08:12 – Why design-stage fixes disappear once a project reaches "practical completion" 09:23 – Case example: relocating a Queensland switch yard to design out a hazard early 10:00 – The payoff of early engagement: easier process, stakeholders on side 11:01 – Swinburne University postgrad unit on project due diligence 11:36 – Why some people grasp the criticality-and-control approach instantly — and others don't 12:00 – Wrap-up Note, they mention discussing NZ Harbour in the last episode, this will be the next episode (#4). If you'd like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we'd love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye's consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au , where you'll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events.

September 6, 2026Episode 212 min

Elimination Has Its Own Hierarchy Of Control

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss how Elimination Has Its Own Hierarchy Of Control. They unpack how the traditional hierarchy of controls (elimination, substitution, isolation, engineering, admin, PPE) collapses under WHS legislation into eliminate–prevent–mitigate, and why the elimination step can't be skipped until it's genuinely tested and ruled out. Using real examples, from rockfalls above a Sydney rail line to level crossings, they show that "eliminate" usually means choosing between stopping one activity, stopping another, or re-engineering the interaction entirely, and why that reasoning needs to be documented, not just assumed. Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro: elimination and its own internal hierarchy of controls 01:03 – The traditional hierarchy of controls explained via a noisy machine example, plus WHS legislation's eliminate–prevent–mitigate structure 03:49 – Why elimination must be properly tested before moving on — illustrated through the Lapstone rockfall case (stopping trains vs a tunnel vs doing nothing) 06:15 – Level crossings as a three-way elimination choice (stop trains, stop cars, grade separation), plus the dam wall and airspace design examples 09:09 – The governance shift: formally documenting why eliminated options were ruled out, and using threat barrier diagrams to test reasonableness 11:31 – Wrap-up, including the Comeng trains example of an elimination option that's valid but cost-prohibitive If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events.

August 30, 2026Episode 112 min

Criticality & Control and Pink Elephants

Drop us a note In this first episode of Season 8, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis look at "criticality and control", starting with the pink elephant problem: Why organisations that successfully prevent bad outcomes often end up defunding the very risk functions responsible for that success. During their chat, they unpack the Port of Auckland conviction and what it reveals about the gap between Australian and New Zealand WHS enforcement, a local government case study on engineering versus insurance priorities, and why short-term commercial thinking clashes with the long timeframes in real risk management demands. They close with a preview of what's ahead this season, plus a few early thoughts on where AI does — and doesn't — belong in risk practice. Timestamps: 00:36 – Season 8 introduction 01:07 – Port of Auckland conviction and NZ vs. Australia WHS enforcement 03:23 – Season 8 topics ahead 04:57 – The pink elephant story 07:47 – Local government case study 09:07 – Short-termism vs. long-term risk 09:41 – Bushfire risk and generational memory 12:01 – Closing thoughts on AI If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events.

May 24, 2026Episode 1111 min

Season 7 Wrap: The Growing Divide of Moral Imperative & Commercial Reality in WHS

Drop us a note In this season finale of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis reflect on Season 7's central theme of SFAIRP and the growing divide between moral imperative of work health and safety legislation and the commercial pressures organisations face in practice. After their recap of topics covered, the conversation focuses on AI's growing role in decision, using marine pilotage as their example. Richard outlines ways AI could be applied, such as AI as the pilot, with crew simply responding to its instructions; a smarter Personal Pilotage Unit (PPU) that draws on historical passage data of what previous pilots did under similar conditions, while leaving the final call to the human pilot; and TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) where the system directs action in an emergency. The finish the episodes with their concerns of how commercial forces are pushing AI tools as replacements for human judgement, while the safety case for that level of trust hasn't been made, and the instinct to treat AI output as gospel needs to be actively resisted. Thanks for all your support in Season 7! Watch out for Season 8. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 17, 2026Episode 1013 min

Risk Curve: Modelling the “Ideal” Hazard

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the mathematics behind risk modelling and why relying on heat maps for decision-making can have limitations. Richard and Gaye explore the concept of the "ideal" hazard risk curve, unpacking why every hazard carries its own unique risk profile rather than a neat line of constant risk. Drawing on Heinrich's accident triangle and the hyperbolic relationship between consequence and likelihood, Richard walks through the calculus of integrating under a risk curve, and why simply "spotting the dot" on a five-by-five risk matrix can underestimate high-consequence, low-likelihood events by an order of magnitude or more. They discuss the limitations of the standard risk matrix for large organisations dealing with vastly different scales of risk, and why New Zealand's updated WHS legislation is shifting focus toward identifying critical hazards and credible controls first, rather than getting bogged down debating likelihood. Key takeaways: Heat maps are useful for communication, but dangerous as standalone decision-making tools The area under the risk curve matters – it's far larger than a single dot suggests Safety risk assessment should prioritise critical hazards and reasonable controls over likelihood arguments Note: This episode references slides — for the full visual experience, check out the YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/R2aAu. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 10, 2026Episode 912 min

How Information Sharing Has Changed: Part 2 The Public Sphere

Drop us a note In the second of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance on How Information Sharing has Changed, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss how the Public Sphere has evolved and what it ultimately means for SFAIRP. Richard starts the chat outlining the work of German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, tracing the journey of public discourse from coffee houses through to commercially-driven newspapers and media moguls, to today's podcast landscape. They discuss why they believe high-quality, discussion-based podcasts seem to be rising above the noise, how real-time expert conversation is replacing the slower editorial cycle of print media, and why helping people distinguish credible information has never been more important. Richard and Gaye conclude the episode bringing the discussion back to SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) and how truly informed decisionmaking, whether in workplace health and safety or in a democracy, depends on robust, thoughtful public discussion rather than siloed, commercially driven narratives. They also highlight how long it took R2A to move from target level of risk and safety to SFAIRP, and how they hope their podcast helps others better understand it. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 3, 2026Episode 812 min

How Information Sharing Has Changed: Part 1 SFAIRP Internet

Drop us a note In this first of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore how the SFAIRP principle (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) applies to managing internet risk. Richard explains R2A's journey with data security, from backing up to CDs and running an in-house server, to shifting to cloud hosting during Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, and ultimately landing on an offline-first approach that keeps them and sensitive client data off the internet as much as possible. Richard and Gaye discuss the growing tension between staying secure and staying connected and the rising problem of how AI systems may be designed to tell you what you want to hear rather than what's true. The episode wraps with a relatable parallel: Gaye's battle to limit her daughters' screen time is, at its core, the same SFAIRP challenge organisations face every day – you need to be online in today’s world, but being online continuously creates risk. Tune in for Part 2 (Season 7, Episode 9), where they discuss risk in the public sphere. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au . For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

April 26, 2026Episode 713 min

Cunning vs Smart - Leadership in Work, Health & Safety

Drop us a note In this episode of Risk!Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore organisational Cunning versus Smart and why it matters deeply for health, safety, and governance. Richard draws on decades of observing large organisations and argues that the people who rise to the top aren't always the most competent, they're often the most cunning. But cunning alone isn't enough. The real sweet spot, what Richard calls wisdom , is the rare combination of intellectual smarts, real-world experience, and strategic savvy. The conversation turns to boards and the growing concern that professional board members are increasingly disconnected from the industries they govern and they reflect on how this experiential gap is shifting boards toward managing legal liability rather than optimising safety, and what that means for organisations operating under SFAIRP obligations. They also dig into the tension between institutional knowledge and innovation. Why you need people who've lived and breathed an industry, complemented with fresh eyes willing to challenge the status quo, and how engineering's broader role in building a better society fits into all of it. And don’t miss Richard’s Kardashians vs Muppets joke at the end and how it relates to the topic. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.