Risk! Engineers Talk Governance

Hosted by Richard Robinson & Gaye Francis

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Latest episode

May 2026

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About the show

Due Diligence and Risk Engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss governance in an engineering context. Richard & Gaye are co-directors at R2A and have seen the risk business industry become very complex. The OHS/WHS 'business', in particular, has turned into an industry, that appears to be costing an awful lot of organisations an awful lot of money for very little result. Richard & Gaye's point of difference is that they come from the Common Law viewpoint of what would be expected to be done in the event that something happens. Which is very, very different from just applying the risk management standard (for example). They combine common law and risk management to come to a due diligence process to make organisations look at what their risk issues are and, more importantly, what they have to have in place to manage these things. Due diligence is a governance exercise. You can't always be right, but what the courts demand of you is that you're always diligent

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60 recent

May 24, 2026Episode 1111 min

Season 7 Wrap: The Growing Divide of Moral Imperative & Commercial Reality in WHS

Drop us a noteIn this season finale of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis reflect on Season 7's central theme of SFAIRP and the growing divide between moral imperative of work health and safety legislation and the commercial pressures organisations face in practice.After their recap of topics covered, the conversation focuses on AI's growing role in decision, using marine pilotage as their example. Richard outlines ways AI could be applied, such as AI as the pilot, with crew simply responding to its instructions; a smarter Personal Pilotage Unit (PPU) that draws on historical passage data of what previous pilots did under similar conditions, while leaving the final call to the human pilot; and TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) where the system directs action in an emergency. The finish the episodes with their concerns of how commercial forces are pushing AI tools as replacements for human judgement, while the safety case for that level of trust hasn't been made, and the instinct to treat AI output as gospel needs to be actively resisted.Thanks for all your support in Season 7! Watch out for Season 8. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events.Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 17, 2026Episode 1013 min

Risk Curve: Modelling the “Ideal” Hazard

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss the mathematics behind risk modelling and why relying on heat maps for decision-making can have limitations.Richard and Gaye explore the concept of the "ideal" hazard risk curve, unpacking why every hazard carries its own unique risk profile rather than a neat line of constant risk. Drawing on Heinrich's accident triangle and the hyperbolic relationship between consequence and likelihood, Richard walks through the calculus of integrating under a risk curve, and why simply "spotting the dot" on a five-by-five risk matrix can underestimate high-consequence, low-likelihood events by an order of magnitude or more.They discuss the limitations of the standard risk matrix for large organisations dealing with vastly different scales of risk, and why New Zealand's updated WHS legislation is shifting focus toward identifying critical hazards and credible controls first, rather than getting bogged down debating likelihood.Key takeaways:Heat maps are useful for communication, but dangerous as standalone decision-making toolsThe area under the risk curve matters – it's far larger than a single dot suggestsSafety risk assessment should prioritise critical hazards and reasonable controls over likelihood argumentsNote: This episode references slides — for the full visual experience, check out the YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/R2aAu.If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 10, 2026Episode 912 min

How Information Sharing Has Changed: Part 2 The Public Sphere

Drop us a noteIn the second of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance on How Information Sharing has Changed, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss how the Public Sphere has evolved and what it ultimately means for SFAIRP.Richard starts the chat outlining the work of German philosopher Jürgen Habermas, tracing the journey of public discourse from coffee houses through to commercially-driven newspapers and media moguls, to today's podcast landscape. They discuss why they believe high-quality, discussion-based podcasts seem to be rising above the noise, how real-time expert conversation is replacing the slower editorial cycle of print media, and why helping people distinguish credible information has never been more important.Richard and Gaye conclude the episode bringing the discussion back to SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) and how truly informed decisionmaking, whether in workplace health and safety or in a democracy, depends on robust, thoughtful public discussion rather than siloed, commercially driven narratives.They also highlight how long it took R2A to move from target level of risk and safety to SFAIRP, and how they hope their podcast helps others better understand it. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

May 3, 2026Episode 812 min

How Information Sharing Has Changed: Part 1 SFAIRP Internet

Drop us a noteIn this first of two episodes of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore how the SFAIRP principle (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) applies to managing internet risk.Richard explains R2A's journey with data security, from backing up to CDs and running an in-house server, to shifting to cloud hosting during Melbourne's COVID lockdowns, and ultimately landing on an offline-first approach that keeps them and sensitive client data off the internet as much as possible.Richard and Gaye discuss the growing tension between staying secure and staying connected and the rising problem of how AI systems may be designed to tell you what you want to hear rather than what's true.The episode wraps with a relatable parallel: Gaye's battle to limit her daughters' screen time is, at its core, the same SFAIRP challenge organisations face every day – you need to be online in today’s world, but being online continuously creates risk. Tune in for Part 2 (Season 7, Episode 9), where they discuss risk in the public sphere. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au. For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

April 26, 2026Episode 713 min

Cunning vs Smart - Leadership in Work, Health & Safety

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk!Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore organisational Cunning versus Smart and why it matters deeply for health, safety, and governance.Richard draws on decades of observing large organisations and argues that the people who rise to the top aren't always the most competent, they're often the most cunning. But cunning alone isn't enough. The real sweet spot, what Richard calls wisdom, is the rare combination of intellectual smarts, real-world experience, and strategic savvy.The conversation turns to boards and the growing concern that professional board members are increasingly disconnected from the industries they govern and they reflect on how this experiential gap is shifting boards toward managing legal liability rather than optimising safety, and what that means for organisations operating under SFAIRP obligations.They also dig into the tension between institutional knowledge and innovation. Why you need people who've lived and breathed an industry, complemented with fresh eyes willing to challenge the status quo, and how engineering's broader role in building a better society fits into all of it.And don’t miss Richard’s Kardashians vs Muppets joke at the end and how it relates to the topic. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

April 19, 2026Episode 616 min

The Use of Ignorance in Health & Safety Decisions

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis explore the use of ignorance in health and safety decisions and how it’s being used to not make decisions and not deliver the best safety outcomes for organisations.Richard and Gaye examine the growing trend of shorter board tenures and how this lack of long-term intellectual property can affect diligent decisions, especially when directors lack deep familiarity with the technical hazards their organisations face. They also discuss how decision-makers often surround themselves with people who won't ask uncomfortable and challenging questions, or filter information that reaches Boards.They also discuss optimism bias and the commercial tendency to dismiss risk as pessimism. They argue that the SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable) framework demands more than just taking action on known hazards. It requires a clear, documented justification for inaction — and that justification needs to be revisited continuously as technology, knowledge, and circumstances evolve.They conclude that genuine safety governance isn't about guaranteeing nothing bad will ever happen, but being able to look the next of kin in the eye and say, hand on heart, that everything reasonable was done.The SFAIRP moral imperative versus commercial reality. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

March 29, 2026Episode 513 min

Delaying Decisions to Avoid SFAIRP

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Delaying Decisions to avoid SFAIRP (So Far As Is Reasonably Practicable).Their conversation covers:if lack of a decision is the result of ignorance and poor governance rather than deliberate strategyhow the elimination option often gets tested far too late in the design processwhy briefing board members and their legal counsel on WHS legislation obligations is often what finally moves the needlethe example the case of the Port of Auckland's Chief Executive serve as a reminder that commercial priorities don't shield senior decision makers from criminal consequencesif you're going to delay or decline a safety decision, you must document your reasoning thoroughly, revisit it regularly as circumstances change, and understand that sitting on a decision is itself a courageous choice. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

March 22, 2026Episode 416 min

New Zealand's Health & Safety Amendment Bill — Leading the Way

Drop us a noteIn this episode, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss New Zealand's Health and Safety at Work Amendment Bill and explore why New Zealand is leading the in workplace health and safety.They break down the key changes in the amendment, including a sharper focus on critical risk and what this means for both large organisations and small PCBUs. The conversation touches on the real-world prosecutions that appear to have motivated the reform, including the White Island volcanic eruption and the conviction of the former CEO of the Port of Auckland.Richard and Gaye also reflect on how many organisations are getting too consumed by lower-level compliance activity while the critical risks get deprioritised or ignored entirely. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

March 15, 2026Episode 313 min

Resilient Infrastructure, Risk & Adaptation Strategies

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis discuss Resilient Infrastructure, Risk & Adaptation Strategies.Following their attendance at the recent forum hosted by Engineers Australia's Risk Engineering Society and the Institute of Strategic Risk Management they unpack the big questions it raised about resilient infrastructure.From Victorian bushfires to the Dreamworld tragedy, to Finland's invasion-proof subways, they explore what resilience really means in practice; who defines it, who's responsible for it, and why "future proofing" is often considered optional.They discuss why resilience can't be managed in silos, how it means different things to different people, and how a due diligence and SFAIRP approach can shift resilience from a reactive response to a proactive strategy. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

March 8, 2026Episode 212 min

To Grok or Not? Using AI for Risk Management & Governance Decisions

Drop us a noteIn this episode of Risk! Engineers Talk Governance, due diligence engineers Richard Robinson and Gaye Francis how AI in Risk Management?Richard begins with a deep-dive into how large language models work, and where they fall short. He explains why AI systems are sophisticated inference engines rather than true reasoning machines, and why that distinction matters enormously for high-stakes decision-making and risk management.The conversation covers the parallels between AI and Monte Carlo simulation (great for likely scenarios, unreliable for rare critical events), the growing wave of fabricated legal citations produced by AI tools, and why the common law system itself mirrors how large language models operate.Gaye and Richard then bring the discussion back to governance and what does responsible AI use look like for boards and organisations? Who carries liability when a decision is based on AI output? And how do you ensure the sources AI cites are actually real?They conclude by agreeing that AI is a powerful tool for gathering information faster than ever before, but it demands that essential second layer of human thought, verification, and documented decision-making. They reiterate that thinking, and SFAIRP, is hard. If you’d like us to cover a specific topic or have any feedback we’d love to hear from you. Email admin@r2a.com.au.For further information on Richard and Gaye’s consulting work with R2A, head to https://www.r2a.com.au, where you’ll also find their booklets (store) and a sign-up for their quarterly newsletter to keep informed of their latest news and events. Gaye is also founder of Australian women’s safety workwear company Apto PPE https://www.aptoppe.com.au.

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