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June 1, 2026Episode 824 min

VRTAC Manager Minute: From Brainstorm to Breakthrough — Innovation Through the Minnesota Blind DIF Grant

This episode features a conversation with Dacia VanAlstine, Project Director of the Evolve Employment Model demonstration project at Minnesota Blind. What began as a brainstorming conversation at a national conference evolved into an innovative Disability Innovation Fund (DIF) project focused on improving employment outcomes, retention, and participant engagement for individuals who are blind, low vision, or facing employment barriers. Dacia shares how the Evolve Employment Model is challenging traditional approaches to vocational rehabilitation through progressive employment strategies, benefits planning, workplace exposure opportunities, and faster, more responsive service delivery designed to keep participants connected and moving forward. The episode also explores the realities of building new models in real time — recognizing staff strengths, embracing flexibility, fostering collaboration, and "building the ship while sailing it." A thoughtful conversation on leadership, creativity, workforce development, and the future of vocational rehabilitation. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Dacia: When we did our brainstorming, we looked at where could we improve and not just improve the customer experience, but the way that the staff do their work. Carol: How has your experience been working with your RSA project officer, and what's that partnership look like? Dacia: Cassandra is amazing. Doctor Deandra too. They are an amazing team. They are very real, which I so appreciate and so responsive and just, they answer the dumbest questions that I have and don't make me feel dumb. So I love it. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Dacia VanAlstine, project director for the Evolve Employment Model demonstration at Minnesota Blind. And today we're going to dive into innovation, leadership and what it really looks like to take an idea and bring it to life in VR. And I have to say, this one is a little special for me. I had the good fortune to work with Dacia during my time at State Services for the Blind. And one thing that always stood out as her ability to take a concept, sometimes just an idea and turn it into something real, something actionable, and something that makes a difference. So, Dacia, how are things going? Dacia: Thank you for that, Carol. Things are going well. We're moving right along with this project. We are making some great strides, so it is fun to be here today. Carol: Excellent. So before we jump into the project itself, I'd like to start with your story. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your background and how you found your way into vocational rehabilitation? Dacia: I think like a lot of people, I just kind of fell into it. I started when I was younger working in group homes, and that moved into becoming a program coordinator for group homes, which then moved into the day programming side of things at a, DT&H, which then turned into working with their supported employment license and then finding employers and jobs for people that were actually connected to the VR programs. So then I became interested in VR and started working for State Services for the Blind back in 2008 as a Vocational Rehab Technician. And then with my background, ended up getting some ARRA funding and I moved into employment services and have been working with the Dual Customers ever since. Carol: Wow. I did not know you kind of followed my same path because I did the whole group home work too, and DT&H and the whole shebang. That's pretty cool, I love it. So I know this project did not appear out of nowhere. It really grew organically. Can you talk a little bit about how the idea for Evolve Employment first came about and how it took shape? Dacia: It's kind of funny. A few of us had gone to CSAVR in the spring of 2024, and they had announced the DIF grants that they were going to be doing. It was Natasha Jerde, who's our executive director, and then Jon Benson, our deputy director, myself. We had our quality assurance person, Ashlyn Cahill there, and our fiscal person, Gabby Garcia. And then we had a counselor, Jason Dornbush, and we were all sitting in the back row. And it started with one little, hey, what if we applied for this? What could we do? There's so many different things we could do. And it turned into this whole thing and it just exploded from there. I don't even remember the session that was going on at the time, because we were in the back just brainstorming. It turned into this huge idea spark, and one person fed off the other person and then it just blew into this thing. Carol: I love when that happens. That is super fun. Now, the speaker up front was probably annoyed with you all, but I love when that, you know, you get that idea. In fact, you know, Jeff and I, back in the day, we were at a CSAVR conference and he's like going out trying to do a little interviews with somebody. After that session, I'm like, what are you doing? I'm going to do a podcast. This was way back in the day and I'm like, what's a podcast? And look at now the whole world is podcasting, but it cracked me up. I mean, we started that 11 years ago. Super fun. Dacia: Jeff's been podcasting ever since we went to an NFB conference and sat by the pool and Podcasted. Carol: I know it is super hilarious. It's like those organic kind of ideas really can bloom into something pretty cool. So at a high level, what is the Evolve Employment model and how do you think about the key components or buckets of the project? Dacia: Well, when we did our brainstorming, we looked at where could we improve and not just improve the customer experience, but the way that the staff do their work. The DIF grant allows us to really be in, it's in the title innovative. It allows us to try things. Really the idea is to try different tactics, different strategies, different approaches to things in the VR program that improves outcomes, improves experiences for staff, improves experiences for participants, and really leans into that dual customer approach to delivering services. Carol: Pretty cool, I love that. So what about the buckets in this project? I know there were different kind of fingers that you were looking into doing a lot of different things. Dacia: Well, a couple of the things that we're doing is job retention. We know that it's so much better if somebody can keep a job, it's better for the employer, it's better for the person, it's better for just everyone. So really looking at retention, also looking at how can we use workplace activities in order to help individuals that have limited experience in the workplace, limited experience with work in general, just the idea of work, you know, they may be somebody that's newer to work, maybe somebody that just hasn't worked in a long time, but just giving them some workplace activities under progressive employment. So looking at job shadows, tours, and it's something that VR does anyways, but this is done more intentionally and a little more structured to see if this makes a difference in people's lives, if people will choose better outcomes, because now they're being exposed to different types of careers than they would be normally. And so we have that progressive employment also looking at how can we speed things up for people, not speed things up to where we're rushing people through the process, but speed things up in a way that helps people stay engaged. We know looking at the data, that the longer it takes for somebody to get into a plan to get any services implemented, the more likely they are to drop off. And so looking at how can we make this faster for people, but in a meaningful way. And then looking at other aspects of where in the VR program we might be falling short, and that would be, besides the retention, looking at the training aspect of things, especially in the customer service and technology sectors. So looking at how can we get people into technology based customer service roles and building possibly a training program ourselves that can be passed down to the general program and using the training that already exists for individuals. And we're not looking at degree programs, we're looking at certificate programs, short term training, things that can help people get into a career faster. Not everybody has the luxury of taking a step back. Some people have to provide for their families. Some people just really don't want to go down that path. They want to get into a career as quickly as possible. So how can we lean into that training? Carol: That sounds awesome. I'm excited about this. I know when you and I had spoken before, you talked about this being like, you're kind of building the ship as you're sailing it. What does that look like during this first phase of implementation? Dacia: Well, in the beginning, we had picked up a bunch of staff from the General Vocational Rehabilitation, VRS, when they unfortunately had to have some layoffs. So we were able to grab some of their talent. And when we put together the position descriptions we put together, you know, what we thought we needed. And then as we started hiring them and then more staff, we realized that these staff had amazing talent. Besides what was just what was needed for this grant. So we were able to look at where does their talent lie and how can we help not only advance our project, but set our staff up because this is a short term project, so how can we set them up for their careers after they're done? And so looking at is their leadership ability there? How can we help them lead projects? Is there training opportunities? Are there other things that they can bring? Are there ways to expand this a little bit. You know, one of the things that we decided to do was job retention. The initial intention of that was how can we keep people into positions that they want to stay in? It's working for the employer, but all of a sudden it's not working because the disability changed or the disability appeared. We have Callie our Retention Specialist, who comes with a whole lot of experience and knowledge in working with the Dual Customer, and she's really working hard to build out our retention program. I should actually mention that in this, we have four targeted audiences that people would need to fall into to be eligible. One is they are at risk of losing a job. Another is they are unemployed for 27 or more weeks. Another is at risk of losing a job, unemployed for 27 weeks or more. A new American with a legal right to work. And the fourth one is somebody who acquired their vision loss during their working years. So if somebody falls into those categories, they're eligible for our program. We are doing a Functional model for disability versus a medical model. So with that, we have been able to capture numerous individuals that would normally not qualify for our general program because of the medical model. And so we were able to take people that had nowhere else to go and were going to lose their job. And we've been able to save over half a dozen, probably close to a dozen jobs now for people that would normally not qualify for services. Carol: That's really cool. So what do you think are 1 or 2 innovations within the model that you think are really making the biggest difference so far? Dacia: We knew that retention was important and that it should be done intentionally, and we knew that we didn't have a solid retention program procedure process in the general SSB program. So we started looking at how can we really make this difference? And we actually expanded it not just for people at risk of losing their job, but one of the things that we're doing is for the VR program, expanding on that stabilization period. So those individuals that get their job and they're employed for 90 days, and then they make the couple contacts with the counselor and really close to that 90 days, they quit their job, they maybe get scared of losing benefits. Something happens with the employer and they just haven't really made contact with their counselor. So what we're doing is that we're doing stabilization services. So a counselor can refer somebody in those 90 days, and that Career Navigator becomes somebody that they can connect with. They are the coordinator of all the services. They are able to work with the employer. They are able to, if they're county services involved, pull those in, they are able to pull other resources in. And all of our Career Navigators have all the way to level three benefits planning training so they can look up benefits for people. Which is something that we've never done before, really embedded benefits into everything we're doing. So it helps individuals. They have this person that they can go to, they can ask questions about their benefits. It's just a really a wraparound service. And then after their 90 days, the intent is to allow them to continue to be able to contact that person for the next year. If something comes up, we can get back into services with them right away if we need to. We don't have to open up a new sequence with them. They can just jump in and do stuff. So that's one of the really cool things that we're doing, and we're finding a lot of need for that way more than we even thought. We knew that retention was a huge thing. And looking at our really ambitious numbers that we said we would do, we're going to have no issues at all hitting that because it's turned into a huge thing. I should also mention, one of the other buckets that we're doing is benefits planning. So we have a Benefits Navigator that's able to look up benefits, that's able to do all kinds of things. We even had a situation that somebody, due to a clerical error, had gotten a letter that they owed tens of thousands of dollars in back Social Security, and they were going to quit their job. And there were all these things that were going to happen. And because of the Benefits Navigator is at the top level for benefits planning and has all the credentials to be able to do the work and all the training to do the work, they were able to find the clerical error and that is now being reversed. Carol: That's amazing. Dacia: Because of the work that she did with this individual and us having that, that person now can breathe. Carol: I like that, you know, I was thinking back in the day, we used to have Meredith. She was our benefits person. You know, we had the one person I remember customers talking to me. They were so worried about really staying employed because worried about losing benefits, you know, the whole thing and how to counsel through that. And I think you guys having this embedded in kind of every aspect and allowing that to continue on for the people the year after is really important. It just gives that sense of stability that someone to talk to when you're navigating this crazy, you know, there are big systems with all of that. And to really help you gain that understanding. So you're feeling comfortable with the decisions you make and what you're doing is super important. Dacia: And that really feeds into when I had said, we created these job descriptions and what we thought this was going to be, we had created a position for a Benefits Navigator, okay, And the intent was that they would do benefits lookup and they would do the whole benefits analysis. And that's what their job would mainly be with some training. But looking at that person that was hired, Marcy really has a lot of talent and experience behind her. She worked for the hub. She's done all these different things. So looking at expanding what her talent is and helping her really guide what this looks like for our entire program. It's amazing. And then not just that, you know, the original intention wasn't that our Career Navigators were going to have benefits planning, training. But one of our Career Navigators that came from VRS had that. And so we were able to look at, oh my gosh, look at all these things that they can do. And because we have Marcy, our Career Navigators, Kayla and Alex and our new American career navigator, Alexis are able to work together. She's able to mentor them. She's able to help them get the training that they need. So it's really leaning into all these things that everybody brings with them, not just what we thought, what we needed, and sticking to that, just really being open to letting our staff use the talents they have. We didn't have any intention that Career Navigators were going to be training counselors or training community partners, and then we end up with Alex, who has tons of experience with this, Kayla who loves doing this, you know, so letting them do the things that they love to do and the things that they really have a lot of talent in. So that's really helped us in the implementation of this, really leaning into what they bring and what they want to do. Carol: I know you were talking a little bit about your numbers. You mentioned it like, we're going to be able to blow past that number. What are some of the goals that you have for numbers with this project. Dacia: Some of the numbers are very ambitious. Our number for how many job retentions that we get, I think is 270, which at first I thought, that's really ambitious and I don't know if we're going to do that. I honestly think that we're going to probably hit 270 by the end of year three. Carol: Wow. Dacia: Like it's that much. Especially when we added the stabilization. Carol: Yeah. Dacia: And helping those people retain their jobs. That number is going to be huge. We also our outreach to businesses, we are going to surpass that by quite a bit. I think that number is 500 businesses total. And I think we are a little over a year and a half in. And I think we're already at close to 200. Carol: Wow. Good. Dacia: We have an amazing outreach person that we're sharing him with our employer, Reasonable Accommodation Fund. But Ray is out there and he is making connection after connection. And then we have Alicia, who also came from VRS during the layoffs. And she is our business engagement and training specialist. So she is making the connections with the businesses, the relationships. So really we have this talent that's doing this stuff. And Alicia's out there developing relationships with external training programs. So we're going to easily hit that number. Carol: Very cool. It sounds like you've got quite the team. I love it. You've been able to bring in all these folks that have these other like talents you didn't even know about as they come on, and they've been able to contribute so much more than you even anticipated. Dacia: Even our admin and fiscal person, Morgan, we couldn't do this without just like she pulls everything together, she keeps us all on track. She makes sure that we're focusing on the things that we need to focus on. We are very fortunate. Carol: So I know you're operating under a DIF grant, which can really feel different from a traditional VR program. How has your experience been working with your RSA project officer, and what's that partnership look like? Dacia: I would like to say Cassandra is amazing. Even if I come to her with the world's, and very responsive to. Which is super impressive considering all that she does. And then Doctor Deandra too. They are an amazing team. They are very real, which I so appreciate and so responsive and just. They answer the dumbest questions that I have and don't make me feel dumb. So I love it. Carol: That is awesome. Yeah, they're good people. I know. I hear about Cassandra all the time and the amazing job that she does. This is exciting. Well, she has a fun job too because you're working with these DIF projects, you know, and getting to see all this really cool stuff, innovation happening across the country. So I know you're really early in the implementation. You said you're a year and a half in, but you've learned a lot. What do you think are some of the biggest lessons you've learned so far? Dacia: Well, for sure, one of the things that we have learned is making sure that you look at your talent and making sure that you help them grow, because that was not our original intention and looking at their talent, it really has helped us to be where we're at. Making sure that we're working with the general program, communication with the counselors and the general VR program is so important. Even more important than we thought, keeping that communication open. Also adjusting and readjusting kind of what we're doing, what we're saying. I know that we've been building this as we go, which makes it so some things are very ambiguous, which can be very difficult for people to work within, but really helping people get through that. And part of that is letting the staff use the strengths that they have, because that will help get through some of that building the ship as you go and that ambiguousness. Carol: Yeah, I know, it's always exciting. You go from the back of the room chit chatting about this idea, and you put it on paper and it gets accepted. But as you get rolling along, you know, things come up and things change and evolve a little bit. So I like that it goes along with your title of your project. I like that that's the organic, wonderful nature of these DIF grants, because things do evolve as you're going along, and you're allowed to then expand and kind of contract and grow and shape it as the things happen over time, which is very, very cool. Dacia: It absolutely is. And flexibility is really the key here too. We all know that when you put things on paper and you have the intention of things going one way, that's not necessarily how they're going to go. And so you really have to be open to shifting and adjusting. You know, there are things that I envisioned going one way and then all of a sudden with new information, it's like, you know what? We're going this way and it's okay. It's okay to adjust along the way. But you really have to be flexible in this and not looking at it like I am building this program to be exact and live forever. I am building this program to be flexible, to adjust, to be able to be sustainable, whether it's the whole thing or components of this, to be sustainable in SSB's VR program, or even any other VR program that wanted to try some of these, you know, the lessons that we learn along the way in this, whether good or bad, are all important. Carol: Very true, very true. And it'll be really fun. I know you guys are all getting together this summer in June and there's a DIF Project Officer conference, and so I'm sure you're going to be attending that. Dacia: Oh yeah, I'll be doing that. Yep. I'm excited. I love those kind of things because you really get to know other people and you know, you can learn from their struggles. They can learn from your struggles, you can learn from their innovations. They can learn from you, from yours. So I love those opportunities to connect and just have fun. Carol: Yeah, I think it'll be great. So for other VR leaders listening, what advice would you give if they're thinking about trying something new or applying for a demonstration project like this? Dacia: I would say don't over think it. Start with that small seed of an idea and bring other people into it to really brainstorm and get creative with it. Make sure that you're communicating often with VR. Even if you are not in VR program, VR is going to be a key partner regardless. Communicate often and be very transparent in the communication, I would say. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. I know that anytime I have a question, if I think that we might be, you know, okay, well, can we do this? Or what if we do this wrong? Don't be afraid of that. If you have a Cass, talk to Cassandra will help you through it. Or your version of Cassandra, that's what they're there for. One of the things that we had done was we had decided to change one of our areas that we were focusing on progressive employment based on new information. It was super easy. We said, hey, we decided to go in this area. That was a mistake. We don't have enough people there, but we do in this area. Can we do this? Absolutely. So don't be afraid to make some mistakes as long as you're not doing something illegal. Carol: Yeah, yeah, let's stay away from that. Dacia: Let's stay away from that. Make sure that you're, you know, following the law. But as far as the program goes, don't be afraid to adjust and make mistakes because that's what you're here for. You're here to innovate and you have to take some risk in order to get that reward. Carol: Well, Dacia, this has been such a great conversation. What you're building is not just a project. It's really a glimpse into the future of what VR could look like. So thanks for joining us today. Dacia: Well, thanks for having me. Carol: You bet. And to our listeners, if there's one takeaway, it's this innovation doesn't start with a perfect plan. It starts with the question and willingness to try. Thanks for listening to the manager minute. Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

May 1, 2026Episode 732 min

VRTAC Manager Minute: Stay Curious, Stay in Charge: AI and Ethics in VR

Artificial Intelligence is everywhere—but where does it actually fit in vocational rehabilitation? In this episode, Carol Pankow sits down with Dr. Robert Froehlich to cut through the noise and get real about AI in VR practice. This isn't hype—and it's not fear. It's practical, grounded guidance. 🔹 What AI should be doing (and what it absolutely shouldn't) 🔹 The ethical guardrails every VR professional needs to know 🔹 Why AI can boost efficiency—but can't replace judgment 🔹 Real risks: bias, hallucinations, and "too helpful" answers 🔹 How to stay compliant, confident, and in control The takeaway? AI can be a powerful assistant—but it should never be the decision-maker. Because when it comes to careers, independence, and life direction… that's human territory. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Rob: Ai, Artificial Intelligence, is not and should not replace the professional. She's listening to this podcast, and the professional said, don't be afraid that AI is going to take your job. However, do be concerned that your job could be taken by someone who knows how to use AI better than you. CRCC indicates that some of the potential benefits for AI could be increased counselor capacity, enhanced job exploration, skills credential matching, things like that. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is Dr. Rob Froehlich from George Washington University, who's been thinking deeply about the ethical dimensions of AI and rehabilitation counseling. Rob's a colleague of mine and also serves on the VRTAC grant. So welcome Rob, how are you? Rob: I am doing well and thank you for having me today. And I have been thinking deeply. Let's hope that we get something worthwhile from all that deep thought. Carol: Oh, I'm sure we will. So we've talked on previous episodes about how vocational rehabilitation agencies are beginning to experiment with artificial intelligence. You know, we've got everything from transcription tools to drafting reports to analyzing labor market information. But today we want to take the conversation in a slightly different direction. Instead of focusing on what AI can do, we want to talk about what it should do and what it should not do. When you're working in a profession built on ethics, informed choice, and professional judgment. So let's dig in. So, Rob, before we jump into AI, could you share a little about your path into vocational rehabilitation and what led you to focus on ethics and technology in this field. Rob: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks, Carol. So I've been providing technical assistance and continuing education at GW in collaboration with state VR agencies for more than 20 years. I'm an associate professor of counseling, a certified rehabilitation counselor, and a licensed professional counselor. Most of my research has been focused around ethics, because I've always found that to be a really fascinating sector. There's some topics in our profession that are right or wrong and are dichotomous in nature, but really the vast majority of topics we deal with fall somewhere in between. In the past, I've been the chair of the CRCC Ethics Committee, and in that capacity, I had the ability to sharpen my ethical decision making skills. But to your question, why ethics in AI. I feel like we're at an inflection point, and many people are trying to figure out where AI fits, what it is, what it can be used for. And rehabilitation counselors are but one population asking the question of how will AI impact my work? To put this inflection point in this moment in time that we're at into context, think about some other big inflection points the industrial revolution, the movement from horses to cars, or more recently, things like the introduction of social media or even the pandemic. Absolutely. Every one of them changed the way that we do things in society and in our world. So they're all big changes. But even this AI moment that we're in, we can navigate through this. Carol: I think so too. I like that you brought up all those other big inflection points because I thought about back when I was at State Services for the Blind and we were emailing parents, and parents were going, hey, could you just text us like, we don't, we don't really check our email anymore. And it was this huge to do. Yeah. Can we let counselors text people instead of emailing? And oh my gosh, we agonized for months and wrote up policy and all the pieces. But you know what? It all ended up working out just fine. Rob: Yeah. So Carol, I'm reminded when I talked about social media, Oh, forever and a day, I was doing ethics and social media training. And when we started out, the whole message and it kind of relates to what you're saying, the whole message was, and I'm going to date myself here, but like a kind of like a Nancy Reagan just say no. Which ,back in the 80s, there was this big program of that's how to deal with addictions. Just say no. Now, we all know it's much more complicated than just say no. But as that message evolved, so did our message with social media and really like the Just say no was like, oh, no, never. Like don't friend, don't do, don't, don't use anything. Yeah. We found effective uses for it that still are in compliance with policy that still relate to legislation. So I think we're going to probably start like probably a little tighter with AI and then things that are going to naturally evolve over time as they tend to with big revolutions like this. Carol: Yeah, that's a really good point, Rob, because it does. Everybody starts out having, you're kind of in a freak out mode. You're like, no, nope, we're not doing that. Oh, we're going to just a little bit in there. And now you're like, I can't even believe we had a fit about that. Like, it just seems such a part of every day that everybody texts, you know, like stuff like that. You just... Rob: Exactly. Carol: It becomes normal. So a lot of professions are talking about AI right now, but vocational rehabilitation involves helping people make major life decisions about careers, education and independence. So what makes the ethical conversation around AI particularly important in rehabilitation counseling? Rob: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind for me that I want to just stress for people is that AI, artificial intelligence, is not and should not replace the professional. It's really important for us to remember that AI, artificial intelligence, is a set of tools and things that are supposed to be helpful to us, but they're not supposed to replace the functions that we play. One of the essential functions that I'm speaking about, the essential functions of being a counselor or a rehabilitation counselor, is the use of critical thinking as it applies to decision making for people that we collaborate with and provide services to. One of the biggest reasons that we're paid for professional function is to use our critical judgment. We don't want to abdicate that to another entity. We want to make sure that we're using AI tools as just that tools to make things more efficient where possible. And we want to make sure to protect confidentiality, like almost above all, to be able to have oversight regarding decisions that are made, but at the same time. So we want to get that efficiency. We want to kind of have oversight, but we want to make sure that we don't delegate tasks or decisions to AI that go back to those life decisions about career, education and independence. Information is one thing, but decisions is an entirely different set of principles. Carol: That is such a good point because when you look at when you put anything into, whether you're using something like ChatGPT or Notebook LM or Google Gemini, you know, or even Microsoft Copilot, you've got all these different types of AI tools that can sit alongside and help you do something, but it's not like you can just throw in a question and it's going to perfectly answer it. This is it. Here's the beautiful plan for the customer. And somehow they know them and all the nuances about that individual, that just isn't the case because you would have to feed it so much stuff. And it's not the counselor. It doesn't have, you know, it does have, I don't know if you call it thinking ability or how it does its reasoning or brings up, It's, you know... Rob: Well it's math. It's just basic math. It's yes, no, yes. No. Carol: Yeah. It's not the human element and all the other parts of it. So you can't just like abdicate. I still remember last year we were somewhere in one of the states, and the hotel was trying out robots that were bringing things to your room, like, say you forgot your razor and you called down to the front desk instead of a person running up, this robot showed up. But I don't think we're going to have robots taking over the hotel and making the beds and doing all the things I think people envision. This is like Terminator, you know, when you had all the little whatever they were looked like people and then they're back into their little metal bodies. I don't see that. I mean, just not yet. Rob: Yeah. Caro: So rehab counselors always emphasize things like informed choice, confidentiality and professional judgment. How do these values shape how we should think about AI in practice? Rob: Yeah. So those are really high level and important topics for us to discuss. And as a part of informed choice and everything that we do in vocational rehabilitation is about informed choice and is centered around informed choice, but as a part of informed choice, we want to make sure that we have the capacity to understand and to be able to explain what tools we're using, why we're using them, and what the intended outcome of that tool is. So as counselors or professionals who are using AI, we want to be able to answer when people have questions, why did you do that and how does that work? We want to have that capacity to be able to explain that. We want to make sure that clients, first and foremost, consent to us using AI in our work with them. It's their choice to be able to decide, do they want that to be a part of the services that they're receiving? We want to know where any information that we enter into a tool, for lack of a better term, go. Where does it go? Does it go to a cloud? Does it go to training AI? Does it go to other people? We want to know where that information we put it goes and what might be threats relative to personally identifiable information or protected health information. Anytime there's a threat, we want to avoid using the tool. So a big distinction, there's a difference between a closed system of AI and an open source tool or a public facing tool. You just mentioned a number of publicly facing tools a moment ago. Closed systems keep information within an organization's own sphere, if you will, and calculations and decisions don't go beyond the walls, if you will, of that sphere of that organization. Whereas an open source system like ChatGPT, for instance, will include the data entered into the systems for their own training purposes of the model. And they don't protect confidentiality. And they also have the potential to introduce bias based upon what has been entered into the system. They're really it's more like a quantifiable thing. The more information that goes in, the more it's going to likely lean to that. But what if that information is wrong? What if it's inaccurate? It's still going to rely on that because it has a depth of information to draw from, if that makes sense. Carol: Absolutely. I mean, you have to trust but verify. There's stuff that goes in. You can't just go, oh, this crazy thing came out. It's all good to go like, uh, uh, because the information is only as good as what it has been kind of fed before. And if it starts putting all this other, your math reasoning, you know, on to it, it can come up with some really weird stuff. Rob: And I want to make sure to say I'm not the AI dream killer. I think it's awesome. I think it's wonderful. I think it can do really great things. But as of all tools, like it's good for some things and we're going to talk about that and it's not intended for some other purposes. And we don't, we want to stay out of that neighborhood. You know what I mean? Carol: Yep. I'm really curious. You know, like I think it was notebook LM, so George Washington University has a listing of different AI tools that the, you know, the campus has said, yeah, we're good to go with these. We have a closed system with some of those. So they've been able to somehow, I guess, work with the company so that our application doesn't go anywhere else. It doesn't feed the model to like train it. The information stays there. So I thought that was super interesting that they did that. Rob: Yeah. You know, and I do think that other organizations and agencies and entities are going to be learning about that and how that fits for them and are going to make some decisions. But it's important, as the user of the system, to understand that distinction between just all out there, something that's more of a closed system. Carol: Yeah, really good point, Rob. So the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification has started issuing guidance around AI and ethics. What are some of the key ethical considerations counselors should be aware of right now? Rob: I'm glad you brought that up. The document that you're referring to is a document entitled Frequently Asked Questions and Guiding Statements to Support Certified Rehabilitation Counselors using Artificial Intelligence. You can find that on the CRCC website CRCCertification.com. But let me kind of give you a little high level overview. The first thing that is recommended is that professionals using AI learn about what AI is AI literacy, right? So distinctions between things like large language models, generative AI, machine learning, deep learning, natural language processing, and agentic AI. It's not the topic of our conversation today to go down a rabbit hole on all of those topics, but know if you go to this document, they're going to give you a really nice description of what are all of those things. And it's important because, you know, we hear AI and we're like, oh my God, like it only came out when ChatGPT. That's really not true. Ai has been around for ages. Like a simple example is spell check, right? Spell check really has an artificial intelligence piece of it. And how many people, let's be honest, how many people can really spell anymore now that we've become reliant on that little squiggly line or whatever underneath. So like I said before, I'm not kind of trying to be the dream killer, but like, let's put these things in context and let's use things that make sense and things that don't. We want to avoid that. So other recommendations protect client confidentiality. Don't put PII or PHI into a public facing tool. Only use a HIPAA compliant system that your agency has thoroughly vetted and has a BAA. What's a BAA? Well, I'll tell you, it's a Business Associate Agreement. Right? And so let me give you an example. So I also provide counseling in a private practice, right? We do a lot of virtual telehealth counseling. We use a Zoom based product, but it's not Zoom. Just regular zoom would not be protected and would not be encrypted. We use something called Secure Video, which uses Zoom as the platform, but it's an encrypted system, so it's safe. So it's the same deal with AI. You want to use the encrypted, more secure version that your entity will have an agreement with. Couple of other things. You want to uphold the principle of informed consent. Clients get to choose if they're okay with you using AI. You want to think about how you can use AI tools with clients or consumers or participants in ways that make sense. It lends itself to some of the things you said before, Carol, right? Job market analysis, document drafting, skill credential matching, reviewing large groupings of information from things like policies and procedures or legislation. Rob: And those large groupings of information can then be broken down into manageable chunks of information. CRCC indicates that some of the potential benefits for AI could be increased counselor capacity, enhanced job exploration, objective analysis of situations with that skills, credential matching, things like that. Clinical documentation, enclosed AI platforms. There are entities that will allow for note taking of meetings with clients or sessions. Now first off, you're going to need to have consent on that. And second, you're going to need to learn how the system works, right? We use something called therapy notes and practice. And it gives you multiple levels. Like it'll literally be there and listen to a session and then help with a note afterwards. Now I have to say personally, super uncomfortable with that. Even if I have consent from clients, I'm not likely to use that. But is that generational? It could very well be. I've heard good arguments either way, but the very first starting point is make sure anytime anything is recorded that your client gives consent to that. It's also going to have the potential to impact what clients will share with you if they know it's being recorded. So just a thought there are a couple of other things. You want to help clients and counselors, yourselves and your clients. You want to help them to understand things like foundational knowledge, understanding AI, critical evaluation. Okay, so here's a really important one looking for based upon your professional background stuff that doesn't make sense. It might generate a response. And based upon your education and your training, you might be like, okay, that makes sense. And that makes sense. But that thing in the middle, oh, that doesn't make sense at all. That's really important in terms of responsible AI use, because you can receive things referred to as AI hallucinations, right? If it doesn't know an answer, instead of saying, I don't know. It's going to make something up. So it's really important to think about that and to respond accordingly. Carol, I feel like you had an example of something like that that happened recently that you and I chatted about. So you were like, okay, I put this policies and procedures manual or some sort of legislation in, and you were like, I need you to help kind of summarize real quickly. It came back and like a good portion of it was really helpful to you. But in the middle, you were like, that is just absolutely wrong. And so you put back in, you were like, blah, blah, blah is wrong. And it actually almost did sort of like a tongue in cheek like, oh, you got me. Carol: Yes, yes. Rob: Sorry about that. Right? Like trying to respond. Right. Carol: It does that a lot. It's really funny because we work a lot with policies and procedures. And so when we're trying to like synthesize or make something plain language, it can be super helpful for that because sometimes people write really verbosely and you're just going, oh my gosh, nobody's going to read, t's too dense. So you get it to kind of sort it out and then it'll just take some random wacko piece, throw it in the middle, and you're like, this has nothing to do with what we have at hand. And I always do that, I'll type back in, where'd you get that? That wasn't even that didn't make any sense. That was dumb. Sometimes I say like, I'll be like, what are you doing that's bad? And it'll be like, oh yeah, you feel like you're talking to a person then because it is like, you caught me. Yeah, you caught me. Good catch. Oh, good grief, ya think? Carol: Yeah, thanks. Rob: But there also is like the environmental impact of AI that is a consideration. And so there is this consideration that kind of conversing with AI is impacting resources and what have you. So I just put that out there just for a consideration for everyone. One of the other really important things about learning literacy is about prompt engineering. Learning how to give clear ethical instructions to AI, tools to elicit useful, unbiased information, and to be compliant with policies. So can I start at like a really basic, like personal example that's super simple about AI prompting? Carol: Sure. Rob: Okay. Prepare yourselves. This is not clinical in any way, shape or form, but in terms of prompt engineering, a recent example of that occurred for me. So, I'm a runner. I like to run. I like to listen to music while running. It takes a lot of energy to kind of find the right playlist. And I have like most people, I have very diverse., I'm as likely to listen to Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga and Beyonce as I am to the hair bands of the 80s, as I am to disco, as I am to country music, whatever, right? So there's something on a streaming platform that I like. It's called the AI DJ. Okay, all the AI DJ is, it's like a first level. It goes into what you've listened to. It generates four songs you've already listened to, and then one that maybe is like them. It's a real basic level. I got super excited a couple of weeks ago. There's a whole new line on this streaming platform that says, for instance, one of the prompts kind of has some pre-loaded prompts. I want songs that are similar to what I listened to, but with a demographic ten years younger than me. Who doesn't want to be ten years younger, right? So I'm like, cool, okay, awesome. So I generate songs that I haven't heard before, artists that are related to the ones that I like. And I think that was like kind of the majority of them, right? So, all right, awesome. Generates information. And so I start running and it is like all of this like slow country music. And I'm like, all right, like on another day. Maybe the prompt that was missing there was the beats per minute. Like it, it wasn't there, right? So you're going to get something and it's going to be all the things that you think, but you might have forgotten to ask for one important question that is going to drive. The whole process has nothing to do with rehabilitation counseling, but I hope that that kind of demonstrates it's really important how you ask. Carol: Yeah, that's a great point. Very true. Really good example. So when people are talking about AI, Rob, it often swings between two extremes. Kind of like in the beginning, you were like, just say no, Nancy Reagan, we should never use it at all. And others think AI should do most of the work for us. So where do you see the responsible middle ground for the VR professionals? Rob: Let me just start with like a real quick, there's a book on change management. Our Iceberg is Melting by Rathgeber and Kotter. Okay, so the real premise is simple. There's this group of penguins that are living on an iceberg, and one of them realizes there's a crack and the iceberg is melting. The whole story is about how they manage and navigate during this time of change. But one character has relevance to a story I want to tell you. One character is this gruff and grumpy older fella, and his name is NoNo, and he's named NoNo because his response to any kind of change or any kind of anything is like, no, absolutely not, not now, not ever. So I had sort of like a NoNo moment last year. So I was on this trip was this active hiking, biking, kayaking thing. My wife and I were on this trip, small group of people, six people in total. Everybody was a medical professional, physical therapist, a doctor, a disability management exec, me a counselor. Anyway, everybody was somewhere in there, right? Everyone other than me came down on the AI is going to make work so much more productive. It's going to transform things and sectors of the employment will be changed, evolved or eliminated forever. And I was like, no, not now, not ever. I feel like I've kind of evolved a little bit since reflected and begun thinking, hey, what can we take that's positive and how can we safeguard against the stuff that is not really good? So back to your question, like all the time, never, I say at this point, don't be frightened of it. Be curious, but understand that guardrails have to be in place to secure data confidentiality and informed consent, and realize it's not for everything. We have all seen the extreme examples of AI giving absolutely awful suggestions for people having mental health crises. So don't use it as a therapist. And we're going to talk in just a bit about some limitations inherent to AI that would relate to it, giving ultimately awful information in a mental health crisis. With that said, do realize it can give credible information about role playing job interviews. It can talk about labor market segments. It can synthesize vast amounts of information. As long as you superimpose your expertise on it and make sure it's not making stuff up, right? So be curious, be cautious. One other piece of information that I find personally helpful is I'm navigating this change is something one of our associate deans at GW shared in a meeting. She said she was listening to this podcast and the professional said, don't be afraid that AI is going to take your job. However, do be concerned that your job could be taken by someone who knows how to use AI better than you. Carol: You know, that is funny you say that because I've been seeing more and more. There's just lots of articles, especially on LinkedIn. Like you need to understand how AI can help you in the workplace. Like you can't just let it go. And so there's lots of little ten minute videos or little clips and things to help get you a little bit more acclimated instead of being like, oh, AI is out there and it's this thing and you're in the ether and I'm scared of it. And I don't know really what it means. And you think of the Terminator, you know, instead. So that's a fair point. So counselors are trained professionals. They bring judgment, experience, human understanding to their work. How should counselors think about the boundary between AI assistants and their professional judgment? Rob: Yeah. So again, AI should be considered as a set of tools, not some vast entity that can play all the roles and functions that counselors play. So to your Terminator reference to, I always want to be considering myself and I want AI to know, and I know that that's a silly term because it doesn't really know. Like it's an, it's not an entity, but I want AI, the tools that I'm using to know I'm in control. And I always want to have the opportunity to check behind AI for the little fibs that might make up. So the first deals with sycophancy, right? And so what is sycophancy? It is the tendency that AI may want to please the user by reinforcing existing biases rather than offering clinical challenges. So it's going to tell you what you want to hear sometimes. So you've got to be aware and factor in, maybe it's trying to tell me what I want to hear. When you look at people getting information about things like couples counseling or relationships, a lot of times it'll come down on the giving of information that is like, oh, you're right, you're totally right. That's how it is. Something that you really want to be thinking about in terms of balancing from a multicultural perspective. AI can suffer from algorithmic bias, right? And what does that mean? AI systems are trained on historical data, which often reflects and perpetuates social and structural biases. So therefore, what it generates may lead to unfair or inequitable recommendations that limit opportunity for marginalized groups. And that's not a really small consideration to think about. Also, remember, I was just saying before about mental health crises and why this would be a challenge. AI is based on math. AI doesn't have feelings. In short, AI can lack empathy and clinical context. So as I mentioned before, these shortcomings from above, it's trying to please you may be problematic in terms of suggestions from a multicultural perspective, and the fact that it doesn't have empathy. All present significant challenges regarding clinical recommendations from AI. And that's not me hating on it. It's just being objective. Carol: And now I learned a new word of the day that I'm not going to be able to say, but I can spell it. I think it's s y c o p h a n c y. Everybody can go look that up. Your special word of the day. Rob: And Google's wonderful. It'll give you also the opportunity. It'll pronounce it for you. And I've heard it like five times and it's gone in and out. Carol: That's cool. So are there decisions in VR practice that should never be delegated to AI tools? Like what would be the hard stop for you? Rob: Yeah. So these are my opinions on the hard stuff. Eligibility determination and the absence of any other data eligibility determination in the absence of me going behind and making sure that what is suggested makes sense. Fiscal spending or denial in the absence of any other data. Again, you want to be able to use your critical thinking. Counseling and guidance without any oversight. For all of the above mentioned reasons, we just talked about documentation without any check behind having it just do your notes without ever looking at them. You don't know what is in there or not in there. That should be in there. So those would be kind of the hard stop areas off the top of my head for me. Carol: Because it can hallucinate. So you have those notes. Rob: Or it can transfer who said what. Carol: Yes, absolutely. Oh, that's really good advice. So if a VR counselor or agency leader is listening right now and wondering how to approach AI responsibly, what's one piece of advice you'd give them right now? Rob: I would say learn what you can regarding AI basics. Think about the legal implications in your state and how implementing AI usage is impacted by those implications and that context of your state. In the words of the American Counseling Association. AI guidance stay open, informed and cautious. Also, like I mentioned before, realize more rudimentary forms of AI have been in place for years. They just haven't been so publicly known or prominent, right? So we've been kind of living with it for a while and it hasn't bothered us. But now that it's taken on a broader perspective, now is that inflection point. So it's not like this is all brand new. So just think about your own reactions. Carol, that was such a great example before about like texting, like, oh my God, can we text people? Oh my gosh, can we text people? We're sort of at that point, like, what can we use this for? What makes sense? Technology can be super helpful, but let's just be careful out there in terms of how we use it. Carol: Very good. I kind of remember that you did a webinar I believe recorded and probably for CRC credits on AI and ethics. Did you not? Rob: Yeah, I'm sure that CITVR, I'm sure there's multiple. Carol: Yeah. Rob: And actually rehab symposium that Dr. Nicole Tichy, who had a prominent role in this document from CRCC. She directed the subcommittee that generated the document. But Dr. Tichy and I just a couple of weeks ago, and it should be on CITVR pretty soon. Did a presentation on ethics in AI. Carol: Oh, excellent. So, Rob, before we wrap up, what are like three quick questions VR professionals can ask themselves when thinking about AI in their work? Rob: Yeah. First one might be does the tool that I'm using protect client confidentiality? Another might be sort of a self-check on myself. Am I relying on AI instead of my professional judgment? And then maybe a last one might be based upon what information is generated from AI. Have I verified the information before actually putting it in place or using it? Those are three quick things that kind of come to mind for me. Carol: Excellent. AI is likely to become, you know, it's going to be the future part of our work and invoke rehab as well. So the key is going to be making sure technology supports ethical, thoughtful counseling practice rather than replacing it. Thanks, Rob. Glad you were here today. Appreciate you. Rob: Absolutely glad to be here. Take care. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

April 1, 2026Episode 634 min

VRTAC Manager Minute Stop Chasing Perfect: How Washington DSB Is Moving Faster—and Getting Real VR Results

In the latest episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with Michael Mackillop, Executive Director of the Washington State Department of Services for the Blind, to explore how one agency is rethinking how VR services are delivered—and the powerful results that follow. From dramatically shortening the time to services to introducing milestone planning that keeps customers moving forward, Washington DSB is demonstrating what can happen when agencies streamline processes and keep the focus on people. The conversation highlights real outcomes, including customers achieving meaningful careers with wages averaging over $39 per hour, and the cultural and programmatic shifts helping individuals rediscover confidence, expand their goals, and pursue careers they once thought were out of reach. This episode offers an honest, practical, and inspiring look at how VR leaders can rethink processes, strengthen partnerships, and build systems that help people move toward what's possible. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Michael: A lot of customers. The feedback is it's great and a lot of counselors. The feedback is it's great. Carol: It makes brilliant sense because I think people spend so much time. You're letting perfect get in the way of the good. Michael: Learning as an adult is not easy. Learning to do new things, and the frustrations and the anger that can come from having to adapt to the environment that doesn't adapt to you. I think that now is the time, if any time is to show the power and the impact of vocational rehabilitation for the economy and for our communities. Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Michael Mackillop, Washington Blind Executive Director. So how are things in Washington, Michael? Michael: Things are doing good. There's a little bit of Seattle Seahawks fever. Carol: Uh, yes, Seattle, Wahoo, Go Seahawks! Michael: And there's probably some growing excitement for hosting matches of the World Cup. So there's that whole sports thing. And today we're back to rain, which makes us feel it's just this nice gentle drip. It's not an atmospheric river where it's monsoon rain and all the snow from the mountains. It's just a nice, gentle rain. So things are decently good here in Seattle. Carol: Oh, good for you. Well, I have an affinity for the whole Seattle area. I have two brothers out there and lots of nieces and nephews and yeah, all the people I love to come. And I remember, gosh, Michael, I remember meeting you. I feel like it was like 13 years ago or something. Michael: At least, yeah. Carol: At least! (Michael laughs) Carol: You were friends with Jon Benson, my deputy, when I was at SSB. And so we got hooked together. And then I remember I would always tell Jon I'd be like, Call Michael, what are they doing at Washington Blind? Because, you know, you want to see what's going on? And in fact, I remember you guys calling us because we went on an Order of Selection, which is not common for a blind agency. And I remember when Lou Olma was still there, she had called. She's like, oh, you know, asking some questions about that. So I felt like we had some shared experiences together. Michael: Yeah. And we connected, I think, through CSAVR and NCSAB conferences and I mean plug out to them. It's just such an incredible place to really meet people from around the country and become long term supports. Carol: Right. It takes a village to do this job. So the more people you can meet, good shout out for like connecting with other people and just trying to build those relationships, because then you have them way over a decade later, you know, going on two decades later. Michael: And you don't have to go it alone. Right? I mean, to try to go through something like Order of selection, say, alone that... Carol: Yeah. Michael: But when you know, you got people or community of practices that are helping you through it. So it's my plug to be connected to the national scene because you can't do it alone. Carol: 100%. I'm putting an exclamation point behind that one. Well, I happen to be perusing because I had my knee replaced last month. So as I'm laying and putting my leg up and icing and all the things, I was reading lots of the social media because I kind of was behind a little bit. So I'm in LinkedIn and, you know, accepting requests and connecting with other people. And I read, you're awesome, Michaels posting on LinkedIn, and you posted something and I just went, oh my gosh, it made me then go into your website. And then I'm like, all over your website and I'm watching your YouTube videos. It was super fun. So for our listeners, what caught me was Michael was reporting on this annual report they had done, and he was talking about the North Region team supporting 51 customers to attain their career goals, three of whom were able to retain their established small businesses. And then all the cool kinds of work people were in with STEM careers and education and finance and administrative and human services. And then it really hooked me with the average wage of 39.30 per hour. And then he does this nice Congratulations out to his folks. I'm like, what is happening there? Because that's what we want in VR. You want those family sustaining wages and all the good stuff. So long story short, listeners, I had to get Michael on and go, what is the secret sauce happening in Washington? What are they doing there? Because I thought this was super cool. So, Michael, before we launch into kind of what you're doing, I just want to get a little caught up on how did you start in VR? How'd you get there and how did you come into a blindness agency. Michael: Sometimes accidentally? Uh, perhaps a little bit reluctantly. I've been with this agency for 25 years, and I started as an AT specialist. I had experience in adult education in computers. And then I got a job, actually, at the lighthouse for the blind, Seattle Lighthouse for the Blind as an instructor. Where the supervisor, because I had studied American Sign Language, is a long story about why I did that and got connected in with Seattle's deaf community in the 90s and the Deaf Blind community as well. We have a very robust and vibrant deaf blind community in the Puget Sound area, and there were a number of individuals who were Deaf, Blind that were working at the Seattle Lighthouse that really needed computer skills. And so I didn't know anything about adaptive technologies, but I knew about Sign Language, I knew about computers, and I knew about adult education. And so that supervisor gave me six months. And to figure out the screen readers and screen magnifiers and braille displays and to start training. And so it was lovely to be able to, you know, directly communicate with students that, you know, hadn't touched a computer in their lives. That got me, you know, into the Blindness and Vocational Rehabilitation is a big part of, you know, people at the Lighthouse wanting to promote or work elsewhere. Uh, work out into the integrated community. And so there was experience with DSB. I was reluctant to be a state employee. I promise you that once I gave that up and got hired on a DSB, just the passion for the customer, the mission, the initiative, it kind of dispelled my notions of what a state agency is and who works at a state agency. So obviously I've loved it so much. I've been there for 25 years plus, so. Carol: That is crazy. I had no idea. You're I think you're my first guest, that's come on. That's come from this AT background. Good for you. Very cool. I love it because it's always fun to see people's paths in. We all take a different way, but you come in, and then you stick with it because you love it. Like you just love it. Michael: Exactly. Carol: Well, in your December's report. Oh my gosh, what really stood out I was I love the customer voices. You know, you had somebody on there, I think. I don't know if it's Francis working into her 70s, people that were earning promotions and discovering entirely new career paths. And when you look at all those stories, I just wonder from your perspective, what does success actually mean to you as a VR director? Michael: Yeah, I mean, I really love that the breadth and the depth of those career choices that people find through our services, their personal journey of discovery, finding the strengths that didn't know they had and that that's what excites me. And that's what I hear again and again and again. People not believing in themselves until they get some of those adaptive skills. It's so often the key to expanding their own self-assessment, their self-expectations. Losing your vision is traumatic, there's no question. And acquiring a disability as an adult. And that can really impact your belief in yourself and what you believe you can do. And for me, all those career achievements, they represent that journey of that person who I've heard the story so many times that they sat on a sofa thinking there is no future for them. There is no way to get into work. Their self-value had diminished so much because of the change in vision, and then something sparking that bravery of calling the agency. Whether they hear about the agency the first time or they've heard about it, and they get that courage up to call us, and it's a lot. I mean, to honor that connection, to say, I need to change. I need to get off the sofa. I need to do the work to be who I want to be. It takes a lot. And so honoring that those successes that we hear about the just a ray of education or healthcare or last year we had two physicians. We had two people that were physicians. And there's no career that's not possible for that individual, whatever that individual's aptitude and abilities are. It just takes the adaptations and the adaptive technologies and those the belief in themselves to do it. It's a lot of hard work. I mean, once people make the brave call and get into the work, it's hard. And so keeping people motivated through all the challenges and learning as an adult is not easy. Learning to do new things, and the frustrations and the anger that can come from having to adapt to the environment that doesn't adapt to you and those daily frustrations. Hopefully the agency is helping that individual through and to keep and progress. So those stories all just tell me about the work that that individual has done to get where they're at and knowing what a lot of challenge and determination and grit it took to get there. Carol: 100%! Preach Michael! That was good. That was really good. I know I always have that, I just have that place in my heart from my time at SSB, because I felt like the work we did was so profoundly, not that all the work isn't, but it was so profoundly life changing for these folks because so many of them, you know, came to us later in life. They were losing vision, either something medically was wrong, whatever was going on. But, you know, they had these careers and then they go from this place of utter devastation to absolute, like, you have completely changed someone's life. You just man, you could feel it in you like it was such an incredible deal living through that with our folks and what an impact that VR had. Otherwise they would still be sitting on that sofa, you know. Michael: Yeah. And then the work that they did, they were they're changing their lives and they're taking that direction and they're keeping up with it. We're supporting that... Carol: Yeah. Michael: But they're moving forward. Carol: It's on them. Michael: Yeah. Carol: But we give them that glimmer like we're able to help point them in the right way. Like, here's some stuff and we can help you do the thing. Well, I know these outcomes your folks are having didn't happen by accident. And of course, people had come from different backgrounds and different careers. Or maybe they were in a business and didn't think they were going to get to keep it, but I feel like there's something going on in your agency as well. Knowing you guys and knowing you at the helm, what do you think are some things maybe you are doing differently, whether it's culturally or programmatically, that are really contributing to this level of your customer success? Michael: Yeah, there's been a lot of restructuring and change in our agency, and I would say that we are looking at that customer experience more closely and trying to really support the customer experience and not necessarily have the system support how we manage the work, but how the customer is making success. There's been a lot of discussion in the national VR community around time to services and the timelines that the federal regulations allow. When you look at that, when you look, when you think about it in your own life, would I be willing to wait 60 days before I know if I'm eligible, would I be willing to wait 90 days after that to start services? I mean, those timelines don't meet our modern needs, and maybe in the past it made sense to go slow. It doesn't. These days, people are brave enough to make that call after three years on the sofa. We need to get them into services so they start believing in themselves and are working. Excited about that path and just don't get frustrated by the process. So really our first thing is time to services. We created internal systems where we've got intake specialists, centralized intake specialists that are really shrinking the time to determine eligibility and to gather the information to convey to our counselors, our local counselors. So there's preparation there. And that's really shrunk the time. I think it was like 28 days on average and now it's 14 days. We'd like it to be a little bit shorter. Uh, even still, we know that observation for 85% of our counselor observation, we can determine that there's a disabling condition and then through that counseling conversation, can understand what those functional limitations are and what services might be useful in determining that eligibility. So our timeline lag used to be waiting for eye reports from eye doctors who it was never a priority when we knew that there was a visual disability. Carol: You can see they clearly don't have eye sockets or something is like clearly, clearly gone, we don't need an eye doctor report to tell you that. Michael: But letting counselors know and the intake specialists know that observation is valued, take it, justify it, document it, but let's move people through. Let's not keep people waiting for no reason. We've also restructured the way that we do our planning and the assessments towards the planning. We created something called Milestone Planning and that is really shrinking down the goals we're working on towards that long term goal of career path that we've got and we keep that in our heads. But what are the things that the customer is able to commit to doing now in the next three months, four months, up to six months? Let's focus on those. Let's shrink that down and let's have our assessment focus on, you know, be included folded into that and our services folded into that. It used to be our old system was we would do all these complete comprehensive assessments, and it would take months to get people in the eight specialists, and they'd write six page reports of all the things that would be useful. And the O&M specialists and rehab specialists would, you know, do the home assessments. And that's months of assessment. And people are like, what am I doing? This doesn't make sense. They're not getting the services. We're creating this five year plan with very detailed services for the entire time of the plan. And then the customer gets one service, they learn to do something and their whole universe expands suddenly. I thought it could only be a customer service, but oh my gosh, I can do this. Let's rethink it. We were doing a lot of work upfront for something that changes almost, almost instantly once we get people services. Well, let's get people services now. Let's have them experience, you know, learning how to use a computer, learning that they can manage their home or learning that focus small. And then the conversations about that long term goal can change. And when we created that really formal long term plan and did all the work, our customers were nervous about saying that they wanted to change. And so they either got stuck and continued that or they just disappeared. The other piece that customers have told us is they didn't know where they were going. They didn't have clarity on what they were doing, what, you know, it's just too vague, that five year plan. So getting more frequent and meaningful engagement between the counselor and the customer has been a goal of ours, and that has required us to shift some of the work and shift some of the administrative work. We took a lot of that upfront work and provided that to the intake specialists. So there's more time for the counselor. And then also talking about how we shrink what we've known as counseling and guidance, where we don't have to schedule an hour, hour and a half for these long term counseling and guidance sessions. But let's understand what our goal is, what we're trying to achieve, and check in at least once a month is our goal now. And to do counseling and guidance. And it may be a ten minute conversation about, you know, what are the obstacles, what's challenging you? What are your frustrations? What supports can we get? How's it going? That's all counseling and guidance that keeps people moving forward. And people often fell out because they didn't know to ask for support. Counselor contact once every 90 days. I mean, there's no relationship built there. Carol: No. They forget who you are. Like they, you know, they totally forget. Like, who are you again? And what are you with? Oh, yeah. That. Michael: And then the, the check in is how are things going? And the person says good, I guess. And the counselor writes, oh everything's great, but is it, right? So getting that more frequent and meaningful connection and conversation, knowing what the next steps are, keeping those goals small so we achieve them within three months from there and we build another goal from there has really been successful for I mean, it's new, mind you, it's new. A lot of customers. The feedback is it's great and a lot of counselors. The feedback is it's great, but it's really hard to change that mindset of the old way of doing everything all at once. Carol: I loved, I was so intrigued because when I, you know, of course, I went down the rabbit hole of your website. So I come in through the link you had on LinkedIn. I'm looking at the report and then I see, oh, what are these Milestone Plans, you know, and then I'm like, what is this? And then I watched the YouTube video and then I'm like, oh, well, this is going really well. It makes brilliant sense because I think people spend so much time, you're letting perfect get in the way of the good, because you're gonna have this beautiful plan and we're going to have it for five years and all these things. And then, quite frankly, I think you get probably a little annoyed because customers go along the way and then they're like, well, I don't really want to do that anymore. I want to pivot. I need to do this because as they're getting their skills of blindness, the world opens up and often they're like, yeah, I don't want to be the customer service person. I want to move now. Well, now you're annoyed. Oh, we're gonna amend the plan, you know, so when you make that kind of the process, things irritating to you that you're going to have to amend and do the things it'll make you crabby instead of just baking this in that we're not going to get so hung up. And we are creating the plan. We've got a goal, but we know these goals change and we're going to do an amendment and the persons involved and they're super engaged. Like it just seems so much more interactive. I'm like, Holy cow, that was you know, how many years has this taken for somebody to think of this, Michael? Michael: Goal and change is slow. But with this change, we are not leaving this. We're not just saying this is the change and then we're on to the next one. Carol: Yeah. Michael: We are really sitting with this and you said bake it in. That is our mantra for this year is we're baking it in. We've made these changes last year. Now we've got to be sure that we're actually doing them. In the essence, it's not in name only. You know your Milestone Plan, you've got five years worth of services. Let's look at that and let's make sure that it's working. I had a really good conversation with a counselor yesterday who is super excited. And certainly what's helpful is, is getting some examples of how to shrink this down, how to shrink the thinking and how to shrink the, you know, down to something that's manageable and doable for that customer. So they know where they're going, they know what they're doing, and they know what the next step is after that. So yeah. Carol: It kind of leads me to my next thinking, because, you know, again, going back to your report and reading it, and I was so intrigued by people that also came in with kind of one goal. But as they get, you know, you get your skills of blindness, your world opens up and they left with something so much bigger. A big promotion, a new career or something that they had been dreaming about actually happened. How do you guys go about, because I know you're talking about, like, active engagement. You're doing this regularly, you're keeping in touch, but how do you really also create that space for them? So it isn't oh, we did our plan and here's your goal. And we're sticking to that like so that they can pursue the path that's right for them. Even though you might have set out on one way rather than that whole predefined outcome, that it's okay to pivot you're okay. Michael: Yeah. I mean, that is the key that people try things out and then it can change. And that's a value. It's not a negative that when someone tried this and then it they're like oh that's not for me. Well that's exactly what we want. We want that exploration. We want it in short bursts, so we're not investing in something and you realize five years later, oh, it's not for me. We want to know now. Let's figure that out now and let's find out if that's not it. What are some other things? We've had a lot of turnover. I think VR agencies have had a lot of turnover. And you know, since the pandemic, a lot of retirements, huge wave of retirements. And so the past year we've been stable in terms of not adding a whole lot of new people. And our focus is really building those skills and building that awareness and building those high expectations of our customers and not letting our own biases kind of drive where we want to guide the customer, but to be open to that customer and help instill the belief that self-belief for the customer and believe for the customer, because sometimes they come in and they do not believe in themselves. We've got to hold that, right? Carol: Right. Michael: We've got to hold that and then bring that customer up to it. And that's been a lot of our discussion and training for new staff. We also have real strong connections with our consumer organizations that help with that as well, and bring that connection to the blindness community. Even if our, you know, staff are not from that community, to make sure that we're understanding the community and expectations and what's happening. Being connected to the community we serve is critical. And through that, even if people have come from the general agency or come from outside blindness, really building that belief that Blind people can do whatever they're capable of. Right. Whatever that person can do, they can do it. Carol: I love it, I love it. Well, it kind of leads to my whole thoughts about you with collaboration because your report also highlighted, you guys talked about your partnerships, whether it's with employers or the tribal VR WorkSource and others. How do those relationships that you all have been cultivating translate into real opportunities for your customers? And how are you sustaining that, like really nurturing those relationships? Michael: You bet. It takes work and past history. I've been 25 years with a blind agency. We used to keep our heads low, keep under the radar, do everything in isolation. We had this weird notion that we could do it all. We're the only ones who know about blindness and rehab, and we'll do it all, whatever. And that's not true, because reality is. Blindness intersects all communities, and we need to find the ways to support people in where they're at, in their cultural expectations. And individualized services also means that any industry is a goal, is a potential career goal, and we need to keep ourselves on the cutting edge and understanding how to support people in any type of industry, understanding what opportunities exist so we can't do it all by ourselves. And there's the other notion that budgets are really tight. And even though other outside resources are shrinking, we need to do more to get our customers into those generalized programs that are out there for everyone and benefit everyone, and to have other parts of the workforce system be footing the bill, basically, so we can keep our dollars for the things that are unique to us, right? And tribal partners. You know, we've got an amazing relationship in Washington state region. We have ten tribal VR, AIvRS, American Indian Vocational Rehabilitation agencies here and then 29 recognized federal tribes. And we do have government to government relations and train our staff who interact with the tribal VR about government to government expectations and cultural expectations, but also understanding and helping our staff understand the value and the services that tribal VR can provide our customers with tribal affiliation that we're not able to. Those cultural healing practices are so critical for individuals. Tribal affiliations may also be pathways to careers that are on tribal lands or tribal businesses that we would not have access to if we didn't actively partner with our tribal VR partners. There's also, tribal VR does not get a whole lot of money. And so understanding too, that we're here to support tribal VR in all those visual disability sorts of things. We've got the expertise we can partner and provide those needs. So it's maximizing each of our budgets for that customer to have the maximum success. I think as well, the WorkSource, the American Job Center, the WIOA partners, I mean, all that as a blindness agency. We were left out of that for so long. And 2016, where we're part of that through the Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act. I for three, four years and still even today, I'm like, I'm from GSB, a title four WIOA partner with rehabilitation. Every time I introduce myself, I had to do that because they're like, who are you? What do you do? Why are you. Why are you. Carol: Why are you here? Yeah. Michael: So we have, particularly through our business relations team, and we just expanded that in the past two years, really have created some strong connections with our Workforce partners and with the American Job Centers and those opportunities that exist we don't have to pay for, there's a six week job readiness workshop that is put on. And the challenge has always been for our customers going to the WorkSource centers and the American Job Centers, we call them WorkSource here in Washington state. And just having no access, having no accommodations that people are clueless about, people with visual disabilities and how to make that accessible. So we've done a lot of work. Our business relations staff did a lot of work with this particular workshop and made it fully accessible, totally integrated. It's not just blind, only, it's all individuals that are eligible for those services. Our customers have been so thrilled with that experience, and even to the point where in front of the consumer organization conventions, they're taking the mic and just crowing about the experience in these job readiness workshops to the Workforce. So we're expanding that. But there are also other opportunities. There are pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship opportunities, work experience, work based experience opportunities through the American Job Centers that we just never had access to, that we're starting to have access to. And it's getting our customers closer to their career goal through the partnership. Carol: I love it because you're really living into WIOA. You know, it's taken a long time across the country. It gets passed in 2014, but you're like, okay, what does that mean? And how is this really going to work and how are we really going to partner together? It's taken a long time for everybody across the country, but you start to see these pearls that are coming out of it, like you're talking about with the WorkSource and that training class, and now it's fully integrated like that is amazing because we still have places where it isn't happening. You know, people will tell you if a person who's blind or visually impaired shows up for a class, they're like, no, you got to go to Blind services. They do stuff over there. They can't come here. But the whole intent of Congress was to leverage all the partners together, because we each have our buckets of money, but we're better together if we can leverage those funds. Michael: Agreed. Carol: 100%. And you are living right into all of that. You need to do a presentation, my friend, at CSAVR or NCSAB, with all the cool stuff you guys are doing, I just think it's really awesome. Michael: It's taken a long time and it's been a lot of work. It's been a lot of effort, but I'm feeling like we're making progress now. Carol: That is so good to hear. So if you could offer a lesson, maybe a lesson you learned or something to other VR agencies, especially people that may be feeling overwhelmed or stuck. And I'll tell you, you have a lot of colleagues out there right now. Stuff's been tough. Based on the experiences you have, what would you want them to take away or what's something you'd just like to share? Michael: The easy one, a lot of things are coming to mind, but an easy one is to be brave. Examine. Really step back. Examine what is and isn't working. Don't. Don't hold on to how we've always been done it. And don't accept that or really shift your mindset to identify what you're really saying internally, as we've always done it that way it doesn't have to be. And so really understand what are your processes are working really well and let's find ways to expand those. But let's also look at the customer experience. And let's be honest about where our processes don't meet that customer need and meeting them where they're at. That's one of our values empathy, meeting people where they're at. Are we doing that? And let's be honest and let's be brave and make the changes. Sometimes you have to fight them. I mean, the whole counselor observation, RSA had some initial concerns, even though it's written into the law, had some initial concerns about what that means for determining eligibility, but it's written into the law, and counselors document that observation. And but sometimes you have to fight a little bit, push back a little bit where it makes sense. Change also is not easy. I mean, there's just been so much change externally, internally, and it's exhausting. But you also need to determine where you want to go and take the time to really mature that and facilitate that change. And we're talking about baking it in. Don't just be kind of shoop shoop, shoop shoop. Figure out what is the big change, what is the change you want to make. And it's going to involve lots of little changes. And people are going to feel like it's still this massive, you know, change after change after change as you tweak things. But let's really focus on that, get it through and then see it through. Do a pilot, get data, get input, analyze it, revise it, implement it more broadly, get data, analyze it, revise it, tweak it, get input from customers, get input from, you know, people. And then as a director, you've got to champion the change and you've got to talk about it. And Carol, I don't know about you or I hate repeating myself. It is a personal thing. I hate repeating myself. But that is the job, right? That is the job to say things and say them again and say them again and find different ways to say them. I mean, you caught some of my videos and that was my goal last year, was my emails that are very detailed and very interesting to me, are not super interesting for all my staff, but they really connect to video sometimes, or they connect to, you know, audios, or they connect to the in person fireside chats where they can come with any question. And we, you know, the executive leadership will discuss what's on their minds. There are different forms and formats for getting our story out and communicating, and we need to really do all those. And it doesn't have to be, I mean, you saw some of my videos in the newsletters and the reports. They're pretty amateur right there. Carol: It was all good. I liked it, though. I liked it because it was authentic. Michael: Yeah. You know, it's taking that TikTok mentality where it doesn't have to be, it's here and it's gone. But it gets the message out and it's supporting the change that you want to make. And it's not me as director talking it, but it's finding other people that are experiencing it and their experience and people connect in different ways. So that whole communication part of telling the story, I'm no social influencer. You found my story on social media, and I know it's important, and I'm doing the work now because it is critically important. we're also, those reports, those monthly reports, were highlighting different programs, and we're sending them out to stakeholders. We're sending out to the congressional representation representatives and their staffers, and we're getting notes back saying thank you for that. And I'm like, it felt very amateur, but I'm glad you appreciated the story and information. Carol: Well, I learned in communications class long ago, seven times seven ways, like for communications, because people all learn differently. Like you said, audio, video, you know, doing more like almost like the TikTok reel. We've got to get way better, snappier, shorter. I mean, we can thank Jeff Bezos for that with Amazon. Like people don't want to read a long thing. They want it quick. We want to get stuff. Now give me the little snapshot about this thing. And really our social media leads to all of that. Because look at you drew me in. I've known you, but you drew me in with your little short clip on LinkedIn. You had the really catchy part. I'm like reading that and I see $39.30 an hour people are making on average. I'm like, I gotta go see what's going on in this report. And I click your link and next thing you know, I'm in your website, I'm looking at your stuff, I'm in your videos and doing all the things. That's how people like think, now they got to get drawn in. What's your quick soundbite, your little piece that gets you hooked in. And we all have to get way better at explaining what is happening in the VR program because we just, I don't think have been very good about telling our message and our story. Michael: Agreed. And I think that now is the time, if any time is to show the power and the impact of Vocational rehabilitation for the economy and for our communities. So, yeah. Carol: Oh thank you, fine, sir. Well, I love talking with you today. I wish you every success in your agency, and I look forward to hearing more fun things and reading more things on LinkedIn. So thanks for joining me. Michael: I enjoyed it. Thanks so much, Carol. Take care. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

March 2, 2026Episode 528 min

Manager Minute: Stop Letting Documentation Drive the Bus — How Smart Tools Are Changing VR

VR burnout isn't about caring too little. It's about caring so much… while buried in documentation. In this episode of Manager Minute, VR counselor Stephanie Nelson shares how she built VocRehabTools.com — a free collection of smart, practical tools (both AI-powered and non-AI) designed to give counselors their time back. 📝 Faster case notes 📊 Smarter assessments 🎯 Clearer job alignment 💬 Custom interview prep 📈 Real-time SSI earnings calculations Not to replace counselors. To free them up to actually counsel. We also tackle the real questions: ✔ Can AI be used ethically in VR? ✔ How do we protect confidentiality? ✔ What does human-first leadership look like in a tech-driven world? If you've ever thought, there has to be a better way to do this — this episode is for you. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Stephanie: That's when I had the aha moment and realized, hey, I can build something that will automatically generate the types of prompts or complete the types of tasks that I've already been given AI to help me with my work, but in an even faster and more efficient way. I want it to be sure that I included reminders about how to use AI safely and ethically on the site. My goal is really just not to recreate the wheel, but to have the VocRehab tools be like a one stop shop for a variety of stuff that actually make our jobs easier. Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Stephanie Nelson, VR counselor extraordinaire. So, Stephanie, how's it going? Stephanie: It's going well. Thank you for having me. Carol: I'm super excited about this. So for our listeners, I stumbled across Stephanie on LinkedIn. You know, I'm just scanning and her post, it caught my attention and I shared it with some coworkers. And Stephanie is a creator of some super cool, time saving tools that are meant to support VR counselors from doing all that excessive, crazy paperwork so that you all can focus on people. So I don't want to give away the farm before we get into this, so let's dig in. So, Stephanie, you've been in Voc. Rehab and Human Services for more than a decade. Tell our listeners a little bit about your journey and how did you find VR and what experiences shaped the professional you are today? Stephanie: All right. So I promise that I'm not going to give you my full life story, my journey in VR. It actually started when I was a very young child. My mom was and she still is. This is probably her last year, a very dedicated special education teacher, and she was a transition coordinator for many years as well. So I grew up with sort of this like front row seat to the challenges that people with disabilities face. So I even remember visiting the local VR office with my mom many times as a kid. And while I didn't understand what the heck vocational rehabilitation was, but what I could tell was that the people in that office and my mom, they were helping people overcome challenges to improve their lives. And that just really stuck with me, that you could have a job where you help people overcome challenges. And I just thought that was really, really cool. So another experience that I think shaped me to be well suited for VR is that I actually started working when I was just 15 years old. So I've always had like the value of work really ingrained in me. But when it came time for college, I did quite a few different trials and errors on different majors and programs and schools, and I finally landed in a fully online program for criminal justice with the plan to become a probation officer. Because I thought, what better way to help people improve their lives than to help them after they had legal issues? But I soon learned a hard lesson after doing some administrative work in that field, and that there's a big difference between helping people who want your help and trying to help people who are required to meet with you. So when I looked for a new career path where I could still apply my criminal justice degree, that's when I found an administrative role with Virginia DARS, fell in love with the mission immediately, and it was kind of a full circle moment, because that's when I finally understood exactly what they do at that VR office that I visited with my mom when I was younger. So within a year, I was promoted to what Virginia DARS calls the employment Services Specialist Senior role. And the more I was in that role, I realized that I really wanted to be a VR counselor because I wanted an even more direct role in helping clients and solving the problems. And I really wanted to streamline lots of the VR processes that I could witness in my employment specialist role, but I just didn't have the authority to change anything from there. So I went back for my master's degree, waited for the right opening, and stepped into the counselor role. And I've been here for almost four years now. Carol: That is amazing. I love your background. It's so fun because you come in from, I had a mom too that got me into the field. So it's really fun that you come in kind of when you grow up in that and then use that. It really does help to shape you. That is exciting. And I bet a lot of good people come out of Virginia DARS for sure. I've done several podcasts with other colleagues. Yeah, that you have there. You guys always have a lot of very cool things going on. I like how your mind thinks, because when you and I had a chance to chat and you talked about I always like improving things. So how did this concept for vocrehabtools.com really take hold for you? Like, was there some moment where you went, oh, we need a better way to do this or what happened? How did this come about? Stephanie: Kind of like you said. That's just kind of how my mind is. I've always been an optimizer, like, since I was also a kid. My brain just it naturally looks at any process. And I'm automatically going to ask, how can I make this better? How can I do this faster or more efficient? So since I started working at DAR's about 11 years ago, I probably said to myself that we need a better way to do this almost every single day. But as far as vocrehabtools.com goes, that concept really took hold just about 4 or 5 months ago, and it was actually sparked, you know, because I have that lifelong I'm always trying to learn. So of course, when AI has taken hold, I was really wanting to learn more about that. So it was sparked when I was listening to several podcasts about AI, and they kept mentioning how AI could be used to create apps. So one day I finally decided to give making an app a try myself. And when I saw that it was true that AI really could allow me to build apps and web pages quickly and easily, that's when I had the aha moment and realized, you know, hey, I can build something that will automatically generate the types of prompts or complete the types of tasks that I've already been given AI to help me with my work, but in an even faster and more efficient way. So it made me realize I could also do it in a way that I didn't have to just keep it to myself that other people could use it too. So that's it was about just a few months ago, and that's where it all started. Carol: That was super cool though. Your first post that I saw and then I'm following you, I'm like, I gotta follow this person because I really just gotta be in my network. I gotta see what's going on with this. I could not even believe it. I'm like, wow, it's super exciting and I love AI. I mean, Jeff and I, we've gotten to do a few different podcasts with different folks about lots of AI initiatives in VR across the country, but not quite like yours. Theirs is a whole different deal. So what kind of gaps or frustrations were you seeing in VR practice, especially when you talk about doing assessments and documentation and progress reporting that convinced you a new toolset was necessary? Stephanie: Well, for me, there were there were lots, but there's really three main frustrations in those areas that really, really pushed me to build this. And first and foremost is that case notes and by case notes, I mean, good case notes. They just take too long to write. You know, I'm often on the move because I do adults and students and schools and all that. Or I'm working between, you know, all types of different demands. So trying to capture and document all the details and all the nuances of a 45 minute meeting or conversation you just had while you're in your car or while you're between appointments. It's just stressful. So by the time you sit down at a desk, you know, usually the mental spark is gone and the details are fuzzier and fuzzier. So that was the main one is case notes. The second was in terms of assessments. There's usually like a bottleneck with formal vocational evaluations. And they're either really expensive to outsource or they just take a long time to get completed. And when I say long time, I mean mostly from like the client's perspective, because, you know, they don't usually understand all of the logistics and the reasons why things take a while in VR. So where something may be quick in our eyes as VR professionals, from the client's perspective, it can seem super long, and I was always really frustrated that my options seemed to be either skip the formal evaluation so they can move forward and just run with whatever information we already have, or make my clients wait. So the assessment tool that I built on there was really to kind of bridge that gap. And the third main frustration was just the mental bandwidth issue of working in VR and documenting the progress and the case notes, and coming up with the individualized progress measures for every client and writing justifications and the quality case notes. You know, all of that. It just can really be mentally and emotionally draining. And even the best counselors, they can get burned out. So I saw a need that, you know, we need something that can at least do some of this heavy lifting for us to help save the mental energy, you know, for our clients instead of our case management systems. The bottom line is that there's going to be things in our documentation and data requirements that we maybe can't make more efficient, you know, like or right away. There's lots of limitations and regulations and all of that. But I just thought if I can make any, any part of our work easier, then that should help alleviate some of the overall load. So that was really my main, my main purpose. Carol: You've got counselors all over the country cheering right now. I can tell you because it has been something, you know, I've been hearing ever since our regulations changed with WIOA back in 2014. I remember my old staff like what just happened because it's always been complicated, but it got even more complicated. And we had, you know, 400 data elements to enter and all this other stuff. I thought we were going to have a mutiny. People were so upset. It just it's a lot. It's too much. Stephanie: It is. Carol: And how do you get back to counseling and seeing the people? I mean, that's the joy you get from your job. It's not, you know, pushing all this paper. Stephanie: Right. Carol: So for our folks who haven't visited the site yet, can you give us, like, what's the walk through? What do the tools do? Who are they built for, and what do you think is getting the most traction so far? Stephanie: So VocRehabTools.com it's basically a website. It's made of mostly, mostly it's the keyword AI prompt generation tools. So you don't just type in hope for a good prompt, you actually go to a specific tool and fill out specific fields for the various tools like the client strengths, their unique barriers, their goals, their functional limitations and all that. And the tool will then generate a high level, very detailed prompt that you simply copy and paste into your preferred AI tool to get a result. From there, you can do whatever you might normally do with an AI result, such as, you know, ask it to make certain changes, or write it in a new tone, or do it again or whatever. And you can even modify the initial prompt that's generated from the tools to suit any specifications you might have. Because, you know these prompts, I wrote them, but someone else might want them written a different way, so you can even change that. Like, you know, most of the tools are generating prompts, but those prompts are modifiable basically. And right now there's ten tools on the site. But I do have more on the way. And I do just want to be clear that there's at least one tool right now that doesn't actually require AI. And that's the SSI Disability and Work earnings calculator. So there's very likely going to be some new tools in the future that are similar in that they may not require the use of AI. And I say that just because I don't want people to think that the site is only made up of, or will only ever have AI prompt generation tools. But again, going back to the current set of tools on the site, if it's okay, I'll just run through and list them real quick. Carol: Sure. Stephanie: I think that might, you know, really give the best picture. So bear with me on the names. They sound really nerdy, but I think I think they do a good job of saying what they are. So we have the barrier buster, the job goal alignment checker, the progress measure generator, the remote work feasibility analyzer, the job coach training services, supported employment and customized employment rationalizer, a vocational assessment tool, the workplace readiness assessment, the job interview preparation generator, the voice case note editor and generator, and again that SSI disability and work earnings calculator. So as far as who is the tools are for I initially designed them more with VR professionals like VR counselors, evaluators, job coaches, all of those in mind. But I ended up actually building the tools so that they can even be used by any job seeker with a disability, or maybe their parents, or their caregivers or case managers, because I really started to realize that there can be multiple ways to use the tools. So, for example, VR professionals can use them in their work kind of behind the scenes. Or VR professionals can use the tools like in real time with their clients, like right there with them. They can even direct the clients to use the tools independently or with a parent if they have the ability to do so, like a homework assignment or a part of a virtual job club. I mean, just the options are kind of endless as far as how to use them. So there's a lot of flexibility built in and how they can be used. And I even realized after creating them how beneficial they might particularly be for new staff, especially new staff that are brand new to working with people with disabilities. Because, you know, when you first step into that, it's a it's a new world. There's a lot of unknowns. Let's see. So lastly, regarding the tools that are getting the most traction, according to Google Analytics, the top three tools visited so far have been the Workplace Readiness assessment, the voice case note editor and generator, which is also my personal favorite, and that vocational assessment tool. Carol: Very cool. I bet, because that case note business that takes a long time. Just like you say, you spend an hour with somebody or 45 minutes and then you have to go back and you're summarizing, and then you have four other appointments. By the time you get to it, it might be the next day. And the facts, you know, flee your brain as you've got so much stuff in there. I think that's super cool. I like that you said too, that you have some things that are not AI generated. There's other regular tools that folks can use because I know some people have that feeling like, oh, AI, you know, it can say scary, terrible things or wreck your stuff. So you always want to trust but verify like you.. Stephanie: Exactly. Carol: You know, you you're writing in your things and you want to look at how does it come out and if, especially if you want something to have a certain tone that's really lovely. Like, I'll do that. Sometimes I'm writing something. I'm like, can you give me a better tone that's firm but yet friendly, you know, or whatever, instead of sounding like, you know, crabby in it. So I love that flexibility with AI to really help you do that. Stephanie: Absolutely. Carol: I know that VR is really deeply personal work, and I just wanted to know your feelings about how do you think about balancing that professional judgment and ethics and individualized planning with the efficiency technology can offer? Because I know this is kind of a hot button issue with people like, oh, I could never use AI. What are your thoughts about that? Stephanie: I think that just solid professional judgment in all your ethical considerations. I mean, I really think or at least I hope, that those, you know, remain top priorities for anyone that works in VR, no matter what the new advancement or technology that might come out. And honestly, this was one of the primary factors that I considered it every single step of the way. When I was building the tools and the site itself, I knew that I would use AI in the tools ethically, that I wouldn't put in any personally identifying information. You know, I knew that I would use the outputs, just as those guiding recommendations and the starting points are rough drafts, but not the absolute answer, not the final product and all that. But I want it to be sure that I included reminders about how to use AI safely and ethically on the site. So on every tool near the prompt generation buttons, there's a bright yellow pop up box that reminds users how to use this technology in a way that's appropriate. Like you were saying, in addition to reminding people not to input personally identifying information. But I also really wanted to drive home the fact that these tools are for help. They're for enhancement. They are not replacement of human judgment or decision making. Ai just doesn't have the relationship with the client. No matter how much good data you give it. You know it doesn't have that, but the counselor does. So I really view the technology as, you know, like I mentioned, the first draft or like a research assistant. It's the help in the starting point. It handles all the data crunching and the formatting and the initial brainstorming. And I think that's what actually frees up the VR professionals, you know, mental energy and time so that we can apply that professional judgment and ethics where it matters most, like you said, which is in the human connection. Carol: So well said. You really did say that. Well, because people forget AI is not the be all, end all. Stephanie: No. Carol: it can only like give you back like you have to put stuff in. It's not going to spit out. You can't just put somebody's name in and go like give me an assessment that it doesn't know the person, it doesn't know anything. It has no context. So it's only as good as the information you put in. And I do like how AI can really help you with tone and maybe a way of describing something, because sometimes you have difficult situations and you're trying to describe it, but you want to do it kind of in the best way possible. And the words don't always come to us to do it that way. Stephanie: Right? Or like, you know, they can, but it would take a long time. Carol: Yeah, the time factor is amazing. So I love that you said that, and I love that you have those pop up tools. I'm wondering what kind of feedback are you getting from people so far? I know it's only been up for 4 or 5 months, but are you getting any kind of feedback from counselors or other professionals? Stephanie: Yeah. So right now the site is still kind of brand new. I have not actually received any like specific direct feedback and those types of terms so far. I've really just gotten the feedback like this is so awesome, I can't wait to try it. I can see how this is going to help, or I've bookmarked the site and all that, but no direct like quantifiable feedback yet. But I was thinking about that and I think I may know again, it's a new site, but I think it might actually be hard for me to maybe ever get that type of feedback. And here's why. Because I had my own hesitations in creating and publicizing these tools. You know, just because AI, like you said, it's still something that's new and not everyone is clear on how to use it or that it can be safely used. And I also see this being something where, for example, a counselor might be using one or all of the tools regularly, and it truly is making a difference in their work and helping their clients. But are they going to openly share that. Oh, I use VocRehabTools.com, That's a part of my success. You know, they might not want to just openly share that. Ai seems to be one of those things where we're all still adjusting to it. And like you said, there can be that fear if you're using AI, that people will think you're somehow cheating or that you're removing the humanness out of the VR process. So I think it's just still in this weird phase where more people are using it, but they might still be afraid to admit it. And again, I think that's totally valid. But I also think that the more we are open about how we're using it and how we're using it safely, that I think that stigma might eventually change. But so suffice to say, I do have plans and a hope to get more solid feedback going forward. But until then, the only specific feedback I would have would be my own. And I know I'm biased, but I am a VR counselor and so I can say that the tools really have allowed me to do my job even better. I love saving time, but the time saving aspect from using the tools is really kind of secondary. They've really just allowed me to do my job better. So I guess, for example, like now I'm able to quickly and on the spot give clients some real time calculations, like with pretty colors and visuals about how much more money they'll have when they're working versus just receiving SSI. And they're not just like listening to me say it, they're watching me on this screen and watching like it being calculated. So it gives it some more validity. So I've been able to complete vocational assessments that have really generated some good ideas that neither me or my client had thought of before. In terms of potential job goals for them, I've been able to create custom interview preparation plans and just like minutes. And one of them I actually shared with the parent of one of my students on my caseload and they were over the moon about it. I mean, like, to me, I was like, I just whipped this out like it's a plan. I mean, it's talking about how to practice for job interviews. But they were super excited about it and they couldn't wait to start working on it with their student. And I was like, oh, this is great. This is fostering parental engagement. Like this, yeah, this is cool. You know, if and if I didn't have the AI to print it out to be really custom for that client, I may just have not taken the 30 minutes to an hour that it would have taken me personally to do with just my own brainpower. So and like I mentioned, that the voice case note generator, that's really just been a lifesaver, because at most of my schools, the internet connection is so slow and the students come to me like back to back. So there's really no time for quality case notes. But with this tool, I can really whip them out in no time. And then I get to truly focus back on my students instead of typing the whole time that I'm with them. So my feedback, of course it's biased, but is that it's really been good, but hopefully we'll get some outside feedback in the future. Carol: No, that's all good, I love that. Well, you clearly are thinking ahead, I can tell. And you're looking to the future and continuing to build. So what is next for you? Are there more new tools or partnerships or collaborations or expansion ideas you have? Stephanie: Yeah, so I mean, I definitely have some new tools in mind. A couple that are currently in the works is a transferable skills generator, like a matrix, a task analysis tool to easily break down common work tasks into step by step lists. Really thinking about like maybe job coaches for that one and another one that I'm actually really excited about is a disability disclosure decision helper and script generator so that they can really customize creating that type of thing or like request for accommodations, especially even for interviews. Some of my clients really need them at that stage, and that's really hard. My hope is also to add more tools. Like I said before, that work right on the site without needing to go to AI. I'm also hoping to add more tools that assist with presets if I can. My goal is really just not to recreate the wheel, but to have the tools be like a one stop shop for a variety of stuff that actually make our jobs easier. I can envision there may be people who even stumble across the site who haven't heard of VR, and through using the tools or reading the blog, they may realize that they should apply for VR. So just thinking in terms of like, you know, the website also kind of can naturally act like a marketing tool for VR because, you know, a lot of people don't know about it. And just regarding partnerships. I mean, I'm definitely open to any potential collaborations, but at the moment, my goals really are just to keep the website as simple and fast as possible, because I don't want it to turn into a slow non-working, because that's not what we're trying to do here is make another non-responsive tool. And then number two, just to keep it as a free and public resource for as long as possible. Carol: That is amazing. I am really excited about what you have cooking, because all of those things you mentioned are much needed. I think people will really love this, and I'm hoping we can help expand the word so people come and see your very free website. I can't believe you did all this work. It would be so great. So do you have advice for like VR leaders? Because we have listeners that are supervisors, managers, directors. What guidance would you give VR leaders about embracing technology in a way that strengthens and doesn't replace the human side of this work? Stephanie: My guidance to VR leaders is to view technology as a way to buy back time for their staff, and to improve both the VR experience and outcomes for clients. We work in a field that's increasingly bogged down by documentation and data requirements, with systems that can take a lot of time to input that documentation and data. So when we embrace AI tools, even the simple little ones that I've built on my site, we're not trying to automate the counseling or rehabilitation process. We're not trying to take ourselves out of the process or out of the work. We're trying to remove the barriers that keep councilor's from helping their clients actually move forward. So my advice would be to lead with a human first technology second mindset. So as we always are anyway, keeping client confidentiality, transparency and the client preferences in mind. And by that I mean be a human and let clients know if and when you're using AI, explain to them how you're protecting their data when you do it, and don't use it if they request not to for their case, it's really no different. I don't think, than the informed choice and counseling methods that we're already using for other service provisions and processes, like, for example, when we refer someone for job coaching services or for a psychological evaluation, what do we do? We tell clients what the service is, why it's needed, how it can help us and them, how we will use the information that we get back and we provide informed choice about it. So using AI tools is ultimately the same concept in my mind. So if we just remain human focused, then we truly can use technology in a way that enhances and does not replace the human side of our work at all. Carol: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. So what would be the best way for our listeners to kind of stay updated with you? How should folks like interact? Where should they go? Stephanie: Well, right now the best place is just right on the website. I don't have any newsletters or anything like that yet, so just right on the website which is www.VocRehabTools.com. I hope I got that right. Carol: Yes, that's awesome. And they can follow you on LinkedIn too. Stephanie: I was going to say yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. It's linkedin.com/in/5t3f/ that's a little code word for Steph if you look at it closely. Carol: Oh very cool. That is very cool. Stephanie: Yup, it's about the site there too. So I'm open to connect with anybody if they want to find me there. Carol: Well Stephanie, thanks so much for spending time with us. I really appreciate it. And I'm hoping we get the word out far and wide. I think you're on to something amazing and you've been doing a great job. And look at you're doing this all as you're like, side gig. Stephanie: Yeah. Carol: completely for free, I mean, everyone should come and look and go, oh my gosh. I think it's really incredible. Thanks a bunch. I hope you have a great day. Stephanie: Thank you so much for having me. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

February 2, 2026Episode 439 min

VRTAC Manager Minute: When Systems Connect: A DIF Model Linking VR, TANF, and Employment

What happens when workforce innovation stops focusing on individuals alone—and starts supporting entire families? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow sits down with Lucas Halverson and Kathy Davis of ServiceSource to explore Families Achieving Self-Sufficiency Together (FASST)—a Disability Innovation Fund initiative that's connecting VR, TANF, employers, and community partners in a powerful new way. You'll hear how FASST: · Tackles generational poverty through a family-centered employment model · Supports disconnected youth and adults with disabilities across multiple states · Complements VR services without duplicating them · Uses AI-powered job matching and strong employer partnerships · Creates real solutions during Order of Selection and funding constraints This conversation is a must-listen for VR leaders, program managers, and partners looking for scalable, practical models that expand impact without expanding cost. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Lucas: The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature. Kathy: The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states. Lucas: We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist. Kathy: We are one as part of this project, and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant. Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the manager minute. In today's episode, we're diving into one of the exciting initiatives funded through the Rehab Services Administration's Disability Innovation Fund 21st Century Workforce Grants. And these grants were designed to spark new ideas and scalable strategies that help youth and adults with disabilities prepare for and succeed in today's rapidly changing world of work. From artificial intelligence and virtual reality to cross-system partnerships and new ways of engaging employers. These projects are testing innovative models that could reshape how we think about disability employment for the 21st century. And one of those projects, launched just this past year, is led by ServiceSource, and it's taking a unique approach to helping families move toward self-sufficiency and employment. And joining me today to talk about it are Lucas Halverson, project director, and Kathy Davis, one of the key leaders behind this groundbreaking effort. So how goes it, Lucas? Lucas: Hey, good morning Carol. Everything's going very well. Thank you so much for inviting us to talk about our project today. We're extremely excited to be here to talk about our project Families Achieving Self-sufficiency Together. We also call it fasst with two S's. So thanks again for having us. Carol: You bet. How about you, Kathy? How are you doing? Kathy: I'm doing great, Carol, thanks so much for having us. We are definitely excited to speak with you about our grant, which is short for that Disability Innovation Fund. Carol: Excellent. Yeah, I've had a lot of experience talking with other DIF grantees in like the C.D.E.F. We always give them the little alphabet soup label, but there have been different focuses each year that RSA had released the Disability Innovation Fund grant. So it's been really fun to catch up and see what things are happening. So let's dig in. So before we get into the details of your project, Lucas, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be involved in this work? Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. So my entire professional career is related to helping others. That started as an employment development specialist right after my bachelor's degree, focusing on all things employment placement, support services, community based, competitive, integrated employment. I transitioned from that into helping individuals with more significant disabilities prepare for employment. I've done a little bit of group and individual substance abuse counseling, but largely the last 15 years or so, I've been in the world of vocational rehabilitation in a variety of roles, both on the public side and the private sector side, and was happy through those wonderful years to get my master's degree in rehab counseling and my certified rehabilitation counselor credential. So to present day, I've been with ServiceSorce for over ten years, and when the grant was awarded, I looked at it as an opportunity to still stay in the world that I love of helping people, but knew it would expand my skills and really looked at it as an opportunity to bring a pretty large proposal to life. And so here we are, fresh into the second year of our project and seeing all of that happen. So very exciting. Carol: It's very cool. I love finding people's stories, like how you found your way into this world of work, because we all came in a long and winding road different ways, but make it in. And then once you're in, you're kind of hooked. It's hard to leave. So, Kathy, how about you? How did you come to be involved in this work? Kathy: Well, same. I love people's stories about how they find their vocation. And I have also been serving individuals with disabilities for a very long time, well over 20 years. I started as a volunteer in high school with Easter Seals, and from there, I did volunteer work with therapeutic horseback riding. I eventually also went back to school and got my master's in rehab counseling and became a nonprofit community mental health counselor and a traumatic brain injury program manager. And because of my background in counseling and also a previous master's degree in economics, when the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act was being discussed, and the emphasis changed to or included employers. My econ background and my master's rehab counseling background made me a little bit of a unicorn, and I was hired by a Blind services agency around 2012. And then I also did business relations for them. And then I was hired to start the first business relations program at one of the VR agencies. And really, my golden thread throughout all of my career has been starting new programs. No matter what role I've been in. I love new things, I love innovation, and so DIF has been a perfect fit for me. I'm also working on my doctorate degree, almost finished with that and doing a Pre-ETS dissertation. So I have a really strong interest in evaluation. And so evaluation actually brought me to this project. And I serve as an internal evaluator for it. Carol: Wow, you are a unicorn. Let me say that is exciting. Very fun. Thanks for sharing that. So when you two first saw the grant announcement, what caught your attention and made you want to apply? Lucas: Yeah. So this DIF grant cycle the F grant cycle was the first time nonprofit organizations were eligible to apply. So it was a unique opportunity for ServiceSource. And so our program development team recognized that our agency had the capacity to try to take this on, and also the expertise to successfully apply with a strong proposal, but then also administer and monitor the program successfully. So our organization, ServiceSource, is a leading service provider and employer for individuals with disabilities. So it made us well positioned to deliver impactful outcomes under this project. The DIF grant in general definitely aligns very closely with our mission and our vision and our values. And we have affiliated organizational model that we felt would provide a strategic advantage with this project. So it's allowing us to have a fairly large geographic reach. We have several teams across the country all working together on this project, and it also allows us to leverage partnerships and resources that have already been in existence across these teams and these affiliates to have the greatest impact that we can. And so really, the alignment and the capacity gave us confidence that we could do what this grant needed us to do. And so we're in that second year and really getting rocking and rolling now. Carol: Yeah, I hadn't realized that ServiceSource had such a big footprint because I was familiar with the work ServiceSource did in Florida, and Tina down in Florida and working with the Florida General Agency. In fact, we did a podcast about that and that particular model, and I knew there were little fingers of that kind of had spread out, I believe, into a few different states, but I hadn't realized, like, really how expansive ServiceSource was. So that is an excellent point that it really positioned you well for this. Now your project family is achieving self-sufficiency together. As you said FASST with the two S's. So no, we don't have a typo. If they read the transcript later, we didn't have a spelling error. It is the FASST you really launched at the end of June. I know that first year is always a very big planning year and getting things ready. Can you give us a quick overview of what the initiative is about, and really what motivated your focus on families? Lucas: Yeah, absolutely. Really the high level focus aims to help disconnected youth and disconnected adults with disabilities achieve competitive, integrated employment. In addition, you know, using early intervention workforce reintegration strategies to support long term success. That's where the whole self-sufficiency piece comes in, uniquely for our project. But overall, FASST is, as I mentioned, a multi-state initiative, and we want to empower disconnected adults and youth with disabilities. Our core focus is individuals that are eligible for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families or TANF. So that's part of our eligibility requirement. And the ultimate focus is to remove barriers to employment and to independence. And so we do that by connecting families to community partners such as vocational rehabilitation, training providers, employers. But we also have staff that assist the individuals we're serving, build those critical skills such as job readiness, financial capability. And we have a case manager component to the team. Each team has a case manager to help with that kind of wraparound, holistic approach, to try to knock down as many barriers as possible. The big goal is to break the cycle of poverty, looking at kind of that two generational approach. We want to create lasting self-sufficiency, reduce the need for benefits and things of that nature. So pretty big goals. But we have a solid team that I'm confident can hit those goals with us. Kathy: So and related to goals, we really our project has three overall goals. And as Lucas mentioned, it is to connect disconnected adults to find and retain that competitive integrated employment. But I'll also add that we want to have at least one high quality indicator as part of that employment, and we're helping to support them to retain their employment for at least 90 days. But we're also tracking beyond 90 days. And that's one of the really exciting and fun parts of this project. Unlike vocational rehabilitation, where you'd see a closure at 90 days, we're able to support individuals for the remainder of the project if that's what it takes to help them maintain their employment. The second overarching goal that we have is for the youth, disconnected youth ages 14 to 24. Our goal is to help them gain work skills and then either enter employment or enter education and or complete education. And then finally, the third goal would be to build the system's capacity with all of our partners to sustain our model and be able to serve more TANF recipients. Carol: I like your holistic approach that you guys have brought up. I know back in the day, as customers would come in the door, and I was working at State Services for the Blind in Minnesota. You're looking at employment, but it's hard to just talk employment right off the get go. If people don't have food or your housing is unstable or you have all the other issues, so you've got to kind of connect all the pieces together. Employment obviously is a very important piece of this, but it isn't the only piece. You got to have it all work together. Lucas: You make a great point, because I realized I didn't touch on the motivation to focus on families as part of this, and it's largely what you just described. You know, we recognize that families are key support systems for the individuals that we're serving. Families strongly influence decisions about anything but including employment and training, career paths. And so our whole focus is trying to have an alignment to that. And again, with our case management, part of our staffing, looking at the barriers, making sure they're addressed to increase those chances of success, because just as you said, there's not transportation, there's not a job. If there's not a house over your head, there's not a job if you don't have food. So all caregiver responsibilities and so the family tie in is really looking at barriers that affect the family. So could be the parent could be a child. But we know how it impacts the household. It creates kind of that ripple effect. And so not addressing it holistically could be a key piece missing. And so kind of the core motivation I guess to capitalize on that is to increase skills, of course, relating to employment, but also to again try to reduce the reliance on benefits as part of that. So knocking down barriers, helping go to work, reducing that need. And one of the key points with our project is as things are evolving, it does align with some of the current different federal agency initiatives. So, for example, children and families is emphasizing employment as a pathway to self-sufficiency. So that's very close to what we're looking at. And another example is Health and Human Services. They're looking at employment and family as the foundation of economic and social well-being. So our project really kind of just fits and plugs into that, because that is what our goal is with the larger focus. But I do think the holistic piece is extremely valuable for this project and will continue to be. Carol: Yeah, you guys are definitely ahead of the curve because when I saw that that you guys had picked TANF, you know, at first I'm like, well that's interesting. Like how did you come to that? You know, to decide you were going to focus on those folks eligible for TANF and kind of make that the centerpiece? Lucas: Yeah. So the program development folks that really dug into the proposal, part of the application process did a lot of research and found that largely there was a disconnect. There are a lot of folks that are eligible for TANF or receiving TANF that were appropriate for other agencies, such as vocational rehab, just as one example. But the tie in often wasn't there. It wasn't happening. And so, as Kathy mentioned, one of our goals is to hopefully have some better pipelines for that. So for folks and entities that are naturally working with individuals with TANF to understanding no important programs such as vocational rehab exist and what that looks like and what the scope is and what they can help with. So it just kind of was a noticed need and kind of became one of the key parts of, of this proposal when it was getting all put together. Carol: I think that's brilliant because you always look at kind of VR can be the best kept secret. People say that all the time, and even though it seems like it would be apparent, like, why wouldn't you, you know, get connected with VR and you're in this program. People don't know that. And it's not necessary that the staff may be working in TANF, even know about VR or what's going on. We don't always do the best job at connecting with all the different partners and other folk out there. Lucas: Another part of that decision to again, ServiceSource operating many programs across the country. There are a couple TANF specific programs that ServiceSource operated for many years, one being in Virginia that partners with the Virginia Department of Social Services, and then another unrelated program in Denver in Colorado. So there's already some knowledge base of that in addition to the research they all did. So it helped us kind of align with one of our corporate strategic goals of expansion and wanting to increase our support to individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so it kind of checked a, checked a lot of mini boxes, both there being a need and interest from our company with our goal of expanding and serving, you know, additional individuals. So it kind of presented just almost a natural opportunity, I guess, as it was all coming together. And I think it gives, you know, a pretty solid opportunity to try to interrupt the generational poverty that exists within families. Carol: Well, that's where the magic happens. There's nothing better than having a project that fits with your own corporate mission. You know, the stars are aligned, things all sync up. It's not like you're having to kind of fit round, peg in a square hole or whatever, the square peg in a round hole, because it's all aligned really well. Now, I understand you recently received approval to expand your focus to include disconnected youth such as those in foster care, the justice system. How does that change the picture of your work going forward? Lucas: Yeah, so kind of a really cool example. So with the DIF grants, one of the key focuses on being innovative and being flexible in changing with what you're finding during your project. And so very early on, not long after we launched the project and began some large increased efforts with outreach almost immediately, there were a handful of situations that involve youth that met the larger definition of disconnected, but didn't quite meet our project eligibility of being in a household that had a parent or guardian eligible for TANF benefits. And so we originally had intended to focus on those youth later in the project. But we talked about it and we did not want to exclude individuals. We knew we had the expertise and interest to serve, and we certainly did not want to risk coming back in the months or years ahead trying to find them. You know, it's kind of like the hot potato. If you have youth that are interested, now is the time. And so we worked with our project officer from RSA and they were very supportive of us expanding our focus to the broader definition of disconnected youth a little bit sooner than we originally planned, of course, but so that expansion includes youth now that are in foster care, the justice system that are low income or don't have stable housing. And so they don't have to have that TANF tie in for, for that kind of subgroup, but still relates very directly to our mission of serving the disconnected youth and adults within the project. Carol: Yeah, I like that. You recognize that, you know, and take advantage of that as you're seeing that. And that's kind of the beauty of these projects, because they do ebb and flow based on how things are rolling and what you write in a proposal. As everything comes to fruition, you realize different things and you're like, oh, you know, maybe we get to pivot or do something a little differently or whatever that may be, or make this addition and it just makes the project better. I love the flexibility that RSA has with the projects to allow that kind of expansion and changes as you're going along. So I understand you've got six teams working across six states under this shared framework. How does that structure work, and what have you learned so far about coordinating across all these different regions? Lucas: Yeah, I'm proud and very happy to report that it's been working incredibly well so far. It's kind of a new experience for our organization as well because it's bringing together multiple affiliated teams, but working collectively on the same project at the same time with shared goals. So from the start, when Kathy and I were putting this all together, one of the elements that really wasn't negotiable was building a sense of community within our team. Since we're all working on the same grant, have the same expectations. We knew if everybody was working in their own silo, it would be, you know, highly unnecessary and really counterproductive to what we're wanting to do. So we spent a lot of time in the earlier stages and continue to with emphasizing cross team collaboration. It's really kind of the key driver to our success and our continued success. And so some of the efforts to make this team that's spread across the country feel like we're all sitting in the same office space together, is having weekly meetings. So Kathy and I lead a weekly meeting with all the grant funded staff, their supervisors, the executive directors for the different affiliates, other subject matter experts from our organization, and then different contractors as necessary that are on the project. And we focus on anything and everything relating to the project, so it could be updates, progress, best practices, things that seem to be going well, maybe things that we need to work a little better on any process reviews we need to do. So we go through just anything that's relevant each week, keeps that engagement there, keeps everybody, you know, interacting. And beyond that, we also knew that with having some external contractors on the project that we really needed that to be bought in from the staff as well. And so we had kick off meetings with each contractor, both with our large group and then with each individual team, really just to build rapport, clarify roles, responsibilities, expectations, how it was going to work, what the goals were, and just start those relationships strong as well. You know, there's so much going on when you launch a project that we didn't want our external folks not to feel a partner like our internal folks. And so that's been going remarkably well. And then lastly, the last comment I'll make on this is that we also recognize that because we have really three position types that are working directly with the individuals we're serving, again, spread out across the country. We really wanted them to feel together and not, again, not separate. And so each position has its own community of practice. They meet monthly, they share best practices. They discuss challenges, Brainstorm ideas. For example, case manager in Florida found a gem of a resource that's national. There's no reason our case manager in Utah should have to spend time finding that as well. They talk about it. They you know, hey, I found this. This is great. It might help each other. And so those meetings we've had a lot of positive response on and Kathy and I hop on, if they have a topic they want us to discuss or, you know, problem solve with them. And so we've really felt that's helped bridge that large geographic distance across the teams. And we're hoping that, you know, turns into high quality and impactful services for the folks we're serving efficiently, serving our individuals and not having multiple people having to spend the same time on the same need. Kathy: Yeah, I'll add something here, too, from an evaluation perspective. You might be familiar that when you start a new program and it develops into a fully developed, successful project and program, and then you start sharing it nationally. Inevitably, someone will, from another state or another agency outside of your region will say, well, that could never work for us because we're, you know, we have these resources or we're serving this population. The beauty of this project is that it was originally designed for six sites across multiple states. And so our implementation really is across varying populations and community resources. And so this project has such strong potential for successful implementation across multiple states and contexts. So we're very excited that we're really documenting everything that we're doing. We'll have a toolkit when we complete the project, and we're really looking forward to sharing what we're doing and how to do it with others. Carol: And that's a really important piece to RSA. It's one of the things you write to in the project, like how is this going to be sustained past the project ending? Like how can you then, you know, transfer this information to other folks and they can implement it. So I can see where that was very appealing to them as they're looking at evaluating the different proposals that shoot. Here's a group looking at six states. So you mentioned, Lucas, Utah and Florida. What are the other four states that you're in? Lucas: Yeah. So we're in Delaware, North Carolina and Virginia. And we're right now in the process of bringing on a team in Colorado. We have the approval. We're just doing the logistics of what it takes to bring them on. That's one of the ServiceSource teams that has an experienced TANF program. And so we looked at that as another opportunity to be able to already leverage existing relationships and expertise to just tie right into what we were already planning to do in the Colorado team was just a little bit newer to ServiceSource, so they weren't part of the original proposal because they weren't here quite yet, but they now are. So we're extremely excited to have some additional folks joining the team and fitting right into what we're doing. Carol: That's very cool. I know one of your partners. Our Ability, brings some cutting edge tech into the mix with AI powered job matching and training. How is that partnership helping you engage employers and job seekers in new ways? Lucas: Yeah, so I think as we all know, the workforce development is just kind of an ever evolving landscape. So bringing Our Ability in, I'm extremely excited. John Robinson, the CEO from Our Ability, is part of our project. And at the core of our partnership is the innovative use of technology. They have a portal that's called Jobs Ability, that uses generative AI to connect job seekers to employment based on their interests, their skills, their expertise. So the system helps focus on the challenge of both unemployment but also underemployment among folks with disabilities. And their platform reaches 15,000 people with disabilities each month, which to me is pretty remarkable. That's a lot of folks consistently visiting and using their resources. And so the job matching will assist with better connections between the individuals were serving and getting into the work world, or trying to help upgrade or increase their employment in a system that's already proven, which, you know, helps with efficiency. They already know it works. And so by us leveraging their extensive employer network within the system, you know, we're really focused on fostering the employment opportunities that encourage and again, increase self-sufficiency. Kathy: Just kind of expanding on what the Jobs Ability portal will mean for our customers. We'll be able to assist our job seekers with creating quality resumes that are keyed in on skills and experience, and there is an AI matching protocol that really matches their preferences and experiences and skills with job descriptions. It's a proprietary AI system, and so we're really excited about how participants are going to be able to be matched with jobs that actually match their skills. These are real jobs, competitive wages. As we said, we have high quality indicators for our outcomes, including wages. And if you think about it, this is a win for our participants as well as our employers, because they are going to be able to actually tap into qualified individuals with disabilities who meet the skills and experience that they are seeking. Carol: I love AI. I know there's people I've done different podcasts around, different AI initiatives, and some people have different feelings about AI. I know there's kind of the you have the dark side of it, but this sounds super cool. I had not heard of this company. And about this proprietary software. I think that's very interesting and super smart of you to leverage something already out there, proven tested, can be used right away. Instead of you trying to like, go down the road of creating something and doing all of that, you don't need to waste, you know, time and energy in that when you've got something already done. Now, I know no large project like this starts without a few hurdles. What have been some of your biggest challenges so far, and how are you navigating maybe any kind of overlap with other services or agencies? Kathy: As you said, VR is a well-kept secret. Many times that's what we hear. And so being experienced with that, when we started the project, we knew the outreach was going to be key. And so we did not wait to start our outreach. And Lucas and I developed a very thorough support system and toolkit for our staff to help them really be purposeful about their outreach. And as soon as people were hired, one of the first things they were told to do after they were up and running with knowledge about the project was to start outreach. And honestly, I think we've become an outreach machine and we're really keeping track of hundreds, hundreds of contacts across our six locations that we've made and also just really analyzing which of those resources are turning into pipelines of referrals. And so I think we're going to be learning a lot about that. One of the things that we also knew from the beginning is that we needed to tailor our outreach to the audience. So we have a library of outreach materials for students, for VR, for employers, for schools and parents. So there's many ways that we have. We also are created outreach in other languages. So we're definitely doing our best to reach as many people as we can about this project, and also equipping our staff to be able to speak about it, to really understand it and to be able to keep track of what we're doing to reach the populations that and stakeholders that we're going to serve. Carol: Very cool. Lucas: I was going to talk about the overlap with other agencies. It's been a very real discussion with our teams because, you know, how does FASST fit in with other programs that might do similar types of work. And so, you know, it's an ongoing discussion, teaching staff the significance of a comparable benefit, a very familiar term for our friends that have been in the VR world before. We don't intend as a program to supplant programs that already exist, but we do intend to supplement or fill the gaps that exist. Maybe we can move faster within a process to help somebody now that while they'll go through a process that takes a little bit longer, or maybe we can support someone a little bit longer, like Kathy said before, you know, if someone has a VR counselor and at 90 days, VR is comfortable with closing them, but maybe they might need a little bit more support. That might be a gap we can fill or a little bit more job coaching or financial literacy or something like that. And so we really focused on the design of our project to try to rapidly engage individuals as much as we can. We can serve someone start to finish on our own as a project. We don't have to have a built in external component, but we recognize the significance of resource connection, obviously. So both now and down the road for folks, if they're not receiving our support, knowing what resources exist, who can help with different things. And so it's still an ongoing process. So part of that outreach, Kathy mentioned hundreds and hundreds of outreach. We have to hit folks with the right info that makes sense to them. And so for as long as this project's going, I think it will always be a focal point for us to make sure that, you know, it's just clear what we do and what we don't do and what we can do to just try to support agencies and programs that do exist already, but then also knowing we can do a pretty good job on our own if we had to, so. Carol: So let's hone in a little bit. You've talked a lot about outreach and have mentioned VR, but let's talk about those VR partnerships. How are your teams building relationships at the state and local level, and what can VR agencies gain from working with your project? Lucas: Yeah, so the teams have done a really good job focusing on building relationships with vocational rehab. Again, trying to listen to what the needs are, what they're seeing as needs, and then versus, you know, collaboration of what we can offer teams that are working on having regular check ins set up. As with any agency, you know, some relationships have been a little more natural than others. But continuing to work together to try to establish those pipelines and that knowledge base of our existence, and then also that need for the individuals that are eligible for TANF. And so I always kind of say, you know, what's in it for VR agencies? And from my perspective, at least, our project can increase access to services and resources that could make service delivery easier or more efficient or more effective, which should then lead to increase or better outcomes. That's the goal. One of our objectives, as Kathy touched on, is to establish a system that connects. Connects the folks eligible for TANF and other entities such as vocational rehab. And so we're really continuing to focus on that and going to continue to ramp that up throughout the project. As the more, you know, line level relationships exist with the different offices and the different staff. And we've learned that adults with disabilities receiving TANF benefits are often best served by VR. As I mentioned, you know, programs can be complex sometimes, and so trying to smooth that out a little bit might be helpful for them. So we kind of see an additional potential to have connect VR teams with employers. We just talked about our ability and John and his team. They have very robust employer connections across the country. And so that'll be a regular interaction. So we might be able to connect some employers. Some of our interest is connecting educational partners as well. So looking at programs that can help foster people to get into good jobs and, you know, and other stakeholders of course, as well. So we kind of see it as a very big collaboration opportunity for our teams. And I really think at the end of the day, it really just to me looks at shared impact. So we work together. How can we all show that the good work everybody's doing is impactful and supporting the individuals that are coming to us that are needing that support? Carol: It takes a village. It really does. Lucas: It does. It takes a village. And we have one team, the state they're in recently. Just last month went on order of selection. And so we're using that as another opportunity to be a support because at least I know us in this podcast know when going on Order of Selection, the most significant disabilities have to be focused first. And so those individuals with less significant disabilities are typically the ones that have to wait. And we can serve them. So that team is working with their VR agency to make sure that's known, so that if they have folks going on the waiting list, that it might be a great opportunity to shift them to us and we can support them while they're on the waiting list. And whenever the time would come for that release, we can just catch up together and see where we're at. Carol: That's a perfect example of really great collaboration, I love that. That I'm glad you mentioned that. Kathy: Yeah, I just want to mention too, it's kind of tied into that. The reason we're seeing agencies start to use Order of Selection is because of increasing costs. This project would not cost BR to use our services because we're funded through the grant. So if you need an employment service provider, we are one as part of this project and you would not have to pay fee for service or contract us. We're already being paid through the grant, so it really helps with cost. Carol: Yeah that's perfect. So as you guys look at the year ahead, what are your priorities and what does success look like for FASST as you continue to grow and refine your model? Lucas: Many things, but I think largely continuing to strengthen the project. You know, we're still relatively new in implementation. And so we've learned a lot and will continue to learn a lot. And so we just really want to make sure we're maximizing the positive impact of the individuals we're serving. First of all, strengthen develop clear pathways. The end goal would be for this to be replicable at the end to scale our model effectively. And so I really think this second year, now that the team's together, everybody's getting comfortable with our process. This year is really where the car starts driving full speed, is how I feel. And I know Kathy, you have some ideas on quality and partnerships too, right? Kathy: Definitely. As an internal evaluator, I'm looking at quality of this project. I want to make sure that we're ensuring fidelity to our model and the key components of our model and project, and we're going to be making adjustments throughout the next year, especially based on the needs of our participants and even our staff. And we're going to be capitalizing on our successes and sharing best practices across our teams through those communities of practice that Lucas talked about. We want to be consistent in implementing our project across the teams and our locations. So again, we have process documents and we're making sure that we're doing things similarly across our locations. And then we're definitely going to be collecting data. We've already started that process, and we want to make sure that we can demonstrate our outcomes so that we can inform our improvements and just really develop that replicable model in the end. And then as far as collaborations and partnerships go, we're working with our local partners to strengthen our connections and expand resources for our disconnected youth and adults with disabilities. So really looking forward to the next year being strengthening of our program and proving our model. Carol: Well spoken like a true evaluator indeed, I love that. Oh, that is good stuff. So how could our listeners learn more about your work or connect with the FASST team? Do you have a website or something you could share with us. Lucas: Yeah, so there's a few ways. So if someone's wanting to get connected to Kathy and I quick, we have an email. It's FASST, which is FASST@ServiceSource.org. Comes directly to Kathy and I, and we can answer questions if it's specific to a team, a referral, something like that. We get it out to the appropriate folks across the different teams. We do have a website. There's a lot of hyphens in it, but so largely it's ServiceSource.org/families-achieving-sufficiency-together. The hyphens had to be in there. So it's a little much if someone's trying to write it down. So I don't know if there's a way to have that posted somehow. Carol: Yeah, we'll definitely put that in when we post the podcast. We can put that in the transcript too, to have the website linked right there. Lucas: And then, also always like to put a plug in for the National Clearinghouse of Rehabilitation Training Materials, or NCRTM. They have a website for all DIF grantees that provides information about the project so you can see any of the grant cycles, what they're doing, where they're located, and of course, ours being one of them. So it has information and also ties folks back to our project site as well. Carol: Well, Heather Servais will sure appreciate that shout out to them. They have great stuff. I sure appreciate you both very much. This is interesting. It'll be fun to catch up with you in a year or so and see, like now that you said you're kind of going full speed ahead to see where things land, I appreciate you. Kathy: Thank you. Lucas: Thank you so much. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening. Lucas: The contents of this discussion were developed under Grant H421F240144 from the US Department of Education Department. The Department does not mandate or prescribe practices, models or other activities described or discussed in this discussion. The contents of this discussion may contain examples of adaptations of, and links to, resources created and maintained by another public or private organization. The. The department does not control or guarantee the accuracy, relevance, timeliness or completeness of this outside information. The content of this discussion does not necessarily represent the policy of the department. This publication is not intended to represent the views or policy, or be an endorsement of any views expressed or materials provided by any federal agency. Edgar. 75.620. Carol: Well, thank you both. I really appreciate you. Good job. Kathy: Thanks Carol. Lucas: Thank you so much. Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

January 5, 2026Episode 324 min

VRTAC Manager Minute: Leading with Heart: Rebuilding Trust and Results in Hawaii VR

What happens when a VR agency stops leading with compliance—and starts leading with trust? In this episode of Manager Minute, Carol Pankow sits down with Lea Dias, Director of the Hawaii Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, to talk about rebuilding an agency from the inside out. Facing high vacancies, low morale, and years of monitoring pressure, Lea chose a different path—one grounded in listening, kindness, and belief in her people. The result? ✔ Renewed staff engagement ✔ Stronger community partnerships ✔ Improved employment outcomes ✔ A culture moving from survival to purpose This is a powerful reminder that real change doesn't start with spreadsheets—it starts with people. Listen Here Full Transcript Lea: I'm proud when I see my staff here at the administration level, thinking less about what the staff are doing wrong and focusing more on how can we help them, getting resources to help them, reaching out directly to help them. People talk a lot about rapid engagement and forget that ongoing part rapid and ongoing engagement. If you focus on culture first, the numbers I believe will follow. And if you focus only on numbers, the culture will crumble. {Music} Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Lea Dias, director of the Hawaii Division of Vocational Rehabilitation. Lea recently participated in a panel at the fall CSAVR Conference, sharing Hawaii's journey to improving employment outcomes and what she calls their secret sauce. So how are things going in Hawaii? Lea: Oh gosh, a lot better now that the shutdown is over. And we got a couple of our grants came through recently. And so that's all good. I think a lot of people think, oh, Hawaii, it's Paradise, right? Carol: Yes. Lea: But we have the same sort of issues I think, that many other agencies do. But things are getting better in Hawaii. I'll say that. Carol: That is awesome to hear. It's so good to see you again. Oh my gosh. Lea: you too. Carol: So for years, Hawaii has faced real challenges, including declining employment outcomes, significant work tied to addressing findings from an RSA monitoring report. In fact, you all were monitored the same year I was when I was still with Minnesota Blind back in 2019. And so I remember having a bond with you guys. Lea: Yeah. Carol: Because we were all going through it together. Lea: Yes. Carol: Now, I know when you stepped into the director role following the former director's retirement, you really brought this stabilizing, steady calmness that the agency really needed. And under your leadership, the team is rebuilding momentum, strengthening systems and really seeing some meaningful progress in the work being done across the islands. So today we're just going to explore that journey. What's changed, what's working and what other states can learn from your experience. So let's dig in. Lea: Okay. Carol: Can you start by sharing your journey with Hawaii VR and what led you into the director role? Lea: Sure, Carol. Well, first of all, aloha, and thank you for having me. I have been with Hawaii Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, we're a combined agency, by the way, for over 30 years. And I started off about 34 years ago as an entry level VR counselor at the general site of our agency. And then in 2000, I moved over to become the supervisor of field services at our Ho'opono, which is our services for the blind branch. And Then I stayed there for a while. I then assumed the role of director of our New Visions Structured Discovery Orientation Center, and eventually I became the administrator of Blind Services, and I was honored to serve in that role until about July of 2023. So the majority of my career so far was spent at home. And I learned so much there, you know, working for a blind agency beyond what I got from my master's degree and all that. I learned so much about consumer empowerment. And, you know, the real dramatic changes that vocational rehabilitation can make in people's lives. So anyway, when the former Hawaii VR administrator left pretty abruptly, our agency was in a tough place. We had a vacancy rate of over 40%, I want to say close to 45% and rising low morale. We had that heavy corrective action plan you talked about from RSA and many staff were feeling really overwhelmed. So initially I stepped in as a temporary assignment just because I care so much about our agency. I love this profession. I care about the people we serve, and I wanted to do what I could to help stabilize and restore hope. And also, I had several staff approach me and ask me to do it, and that meant a lot to me. So I decided to apply after that. And I've been official in this job just a little over two and a half years, since July 2023. Carol: That has gone really quickly. Lea: Yes it has. Carol: Well, and when you said bringing kind of that stabilizing calmness, everybody talks about that. You've been credited with doing that. How did you approach leading through that uncertainty and kind of rebuilding trust. Lea: Oh gosh. Well, thank you for the compliment. But when I stepped in we were struggling across the board. And I know because I was part of that. Right. Coming from within the agency, we had declining successful employment outcomes way down. And a lot of the outcomes we had, they weren't really careers. In many cases, we had something like 77% of eligible participants leaving us before they even got to the point of IPE. Carol: Wow! Lea: Which is really atrocious. Super high vacancies. And because of those super high vacancies, we had counselors having to cover other counselors caseloads. So people were really burned out, overwhelmed. And because we had been working since 2019 to resolve that corrective action plan with RSA, and we had been so focused on that, staff were, I think, drowning in compliance tasks. And not that compliance isn't important because it is, of course, but there was a lot of blaming and overcorrecting in my opinion, and I think the human side of VR had been kind of pushed aside. When I was preparing for my speech for CSAVR, I kind of asked the line staff, I told them what I was going to be doing and asked them what they thought. And one counselor really summed up for me how it was by saying, just quote, we were all just Surviving. Carol: Oh. Lea: That's kind of pretty much where it was. Carol: That's quite a statement. Lea: Yeah. Carol: it really is. And I know I worked with your team too throughout that. Lea: Mhm. Carol: You know, when we were trying to work on getting corrective actions done and just kind of redoing policies over and over and fifth iteration, sixth iteration. Lea: Right. Carol: Oh my gosh. It was. Lea: Right. Carol: It was a lot. And you lose that sense of, you know, you lose the sense of the people and the reason you're all there. I can completely understand that being in the midst of that. Lea: Yeah. Carol: I know at CSAVR the whole panel was talking about the secret sauce. What do you think has been the biggest impact so far for your agency? Lea: Well, I focused on listening first and staff told me they felt hurt and they had felt mistrusted and they had felt disrespected. They talked about too many barriers to getting their work done. And, you know, I believed them because like I said, I know. Carol: Yeah. Lea: So I developed a pretty tight group of folks on my leadership team up here who I knew I could trust really implicitly to help me, you know, listen to people struggle with and overcome these barriers for our staff and our consumers. And this tight group of people, they shared my vision for the agency and my philosophy of the purpose of this great program called vocational rehabilitation. So we opened up leadership meetings. I decided to bring in frontline supervisors rather than just the people in the quote unquote, ivory tower, and line staff at all levels into our conversations. I really emphasize transparency and consistency and kindness and respect for ourselves. I demanded it to each other and to our consumers, because I really had to rebuild safety and rebuild trust. In the beginning because of the way our agency had been. When I would open up the floor, you know, for people to talk, it was crickets. People just didn't want to speak up. All of that to say, I think there's really to me and I think I said this at CSAVR, I don't think there's really a secret sauce, to be honest. We've made many improvements, but we still have a long way to go, particularly with our data collection and data analysis and reporting are performance measures. Still need a lot of work and my staff and I are learning together. I guess you could say our secret sauce is trust plus autonomy, plus removing barriers and trying to find a way to yes for our consumers and for our staff. There's lots of little examples, you know, based on feedback that we got from our staff, we started allowing counselors to close their own cases. They weren't allowed to do that, as a result of the reaction to the corrective action plan. I would say we eliminated some things that were outdated or unnecessary, like some financial needs testing language. I stopped the communicating via solely via memo. All communication via memo. Training via memo. I mean, that kind of stuff just doesn't work. It's a good backup, but you can't rely on just written stuff. Carol: No. Lea: I cut out what I saw as unnecessary multi-layers of approvals for things as simple as a payment for a service to a consumer would have to come all the way up to the administrator's level if it was, I think, over $2,500. And I was like, this is ridiculous. We really started making a culture shift, I think, from compliance first to people first from distrust, mistrust, and I would say custodialism to communicating my belief, you know, in the skills and judgment of our people tried to make it a less intimidating environment where people could speak their truths and make suggestions for improvements because, you know, like I mentioned, I'm a leader, but I'm also a leader who in a lot of ways has been where they've been. And I know the power of what we can achieve when we all work together and I really believe all those things. I think all those little examples and more have really helped to make a difference. Carol: I love that because you can always sense your authenticity. Always. I remember meeting you way back, you know, with NCSAB, and we would do work together on committees and all of that good stuff. And it's like, oh my gosh, I always just thought you were amazing because you truly, you walk the talk that you say and people believe you, you know, you're believable. And I think that trust you've put in your people. I could see a difference when we were out there, even last year as a TA center and came for a visit, there was just a whole different sense with that whole group. It was really nice to see. I can just tell. I mean, I can tell from the outside, having seen you all before in meetings where, you know, things were it just felt more chaotic and people didn't feel free to speak. And now you can just see everybody's faces. I mean, it was just their whole affect was so much better. Lea: Oh, thank you. Thank you for your kindness. That makes me so happy to hear that. I see it, too. But it, I'm always questioning. Is it enough? Am I doing enough? There's still so much to do. But you gotta start somewhere. Carol: Well, you have to start somewhere. Lea: Yeah. Carol: I think you've done an incredible job with that. Lea: Ahh. Carol: What do you feel like? Maybe. What progress are you most proud of? Or. And what maybe lessons would help other agencies because other people are going through this. You are not the only one in the entire, you know, system here. It is all over the country. Lea: Yeah. Well, I mean, closing out that corrective action plan was a huge milestone. Very proud of that, especially after so many years. So it took from 2019 till just earlier this year, 2025 for us to finally, you know, get out from under that so that we can focus on other things. But we didn't do it alone. You know, like you mentioned, Doctor Chaz Compton, Chaz and you and the entire VRTAC QM team were really instrumental in helping us get there, and you guys really walked alongside us with empathy and clarity and unwavering support. Even with the time difference and, you know, being an ocean away. I mean, you guys were always there. And, you know, after I assumed this role, you know, Doctor Compton visited us twice so far for in-person, all staff meetings. So I brought in all staff, not just counselors, not just rehab teachers, everybody on staff for in-person sessions. Zoom is great for a lot of things, but sometimes you need everyone there in person for kind of a call to action, you know what I mean? Carol: Yeah. Lea: Anyway, those sessions that we had together with Chaz were, I think, really helped us along in this transformation. His ability to connect with staff and reframe challenges helped us ignite what we're calling our Reimagine and Renew initiative. I also want to acknowledge you, Carol, you know, your leadership at the VRTAC QM and the way, you know, you mentioned you and your team guided our agency and you helped us see this journey not as a series of failures, which is how we felt, but really an opportunity more so for growth and renewal. So what am I most proud of? I am most proud when I see our line staff coming up with these fantastic suggestions and being willing to talk to me about it, and then acting on those where we can and making those changes. I am proud that I see in so many of them, their passion reigniting. I'm proud that many of them don't just see this as a drudgery, kind of 9 to 5 case manager job sitting in front of a computer all day. They're out in the community a lot more now, engaging with consumers, engaging with other agency partners. And when I say engaging with consumers, things like evenings and weekends, graduations, award ceremonies, things like that might seem like a small thing to some, but I know those consumers remember and they appreciate that and their families. I'm proud when I see my staff here at the administration level thinking less about what the staff are doing wrong and focusing more on how can we help them, getting resources to help them, reaching out directly to help them. I see a lot less finger pointing in both directions, because I know when I was on the line, I'd be like those people in administration and administration, people going, are those people on the line? They don't. I see a lot less of a lot less of that. And I'm really pleased that a lot of our partners in the community are ready to talk to us again. I think a lot of those relationships, for various reasons, had been pretty badly damaged, and that's actually been a big part of my job, too, is rebuilding those relationships. So I would say the biggest lesson for other states is this you can't transform an agency just through compliance tasks alone. You need trusted partners, you need honest conversations, and you really need a willingness to go to the mat to rebuild your agency culture, like from the inside out. Carol: That is really good advice. Lea: Yeah. Carol: I always think in this role it takes a village. Like when you were talking about assistance from the QM. And I know when we come alongside any state agency, we always refer to it like we. We always feel like we're part of you. Lea: You are. Carol: You know, even in the when we're meeting with staff and staff, it's like, okay, this is what we're going to do next, or... Lea: Yeah. Carol: ...let's work on this. And we always feel like we just become another we're another staff like in the group to help facilitate whatever getting done. And so. Lea: Yeah. Carol: That has been so fun and really fun to see. Like your people embracing all of it. You just see such a difference. It really is pretty incredible. Lea: Yeah. And I want to be really clear. It's not about me. It's not. It's the village. It's everybody together that is making progress. And I think things are looking up. Carol: But you did make it possible because you open the space and it takes time. Like you said, people at first weren't really willing to talk because there'd been a long time where you couldn't talk about it. Lea: Yeah, yeah. Carol: You know, you couldn't bring things up. I remember the whole finger pointing back and forth all the time. People were like, oh, people in Central office. They don't know what's going on out here. Lea: Yeah, yeah. And it still happens sometimes, you know, I get it, but not, not as much as before. Carol: Not like before, No, but it takes that. And that took you really coming in and opening up the space. And it's a time factor. Like look at you've been doing it over two years now. Probably another lesson would be it doesn't go quick. Like it takes time to do this and repairing relationships. Lea: Yes. Carol: That's a time factor. They've got to trust you and over and over see what you're doing. Lea: Yeah. And this is probably bad advice, but forget the work life balance thing. For me, it's like I'm at home thinking about this stuff. Like, what can I do? You know what I mean? Carol: I know I used to sleep, I'd sleep with a pad of paper by my bed, because I'd often wake up in the middle of the night and be like, I'd have an idea, and I'd write it down because I didn't want to lose it for the morning. And then I'd come in. I'd be like, I was thinking last night, and staff would be like, oh my God, you had your pad of paper by the bed? Lea: Yep, I talked to Siri. Siri, take a note. Carol: Yes! Lea: yes. Carol: Oh, that's so funny. What strategies do you think just a little bit on your, you know, the employment outcomes. And you've done better with those. Chaz was super jazzed about that. Lea: Yeah. Carol: What strategies do you think contributed most to those improvements you've had in your employment outcomes? Lea: I've been thinking about this. I think our internal strategies, people talk a lot about rapid engagement and forget that ongoing part, rapid and ongoing engagement. Talking, you know, just like a broken record, talking with staff about that and the importance of that. And I'm seeing that happening more like I mentioned with those evenings, weekends being out in the field. Carol: Yeah. Lea: Streamlining processes, as I mentioned, empowering our counselors and trusting them to do their jobs. I think those were all essential. But and of course, the partnership and the help that we got from the TAC-QM, helping us look at our systems with fresh eyes and supporting us in building some sustainable, long term solutions so that external guidance also gave us confidence and helped accelerate our progress. So with all of those pieces kind of working together, some of our results have really improved dramatically. So you mentioned our successful closures. So between program year 23 and program year 24 our successful closures more than tripled. Okay. Carol: Amazing. Lea: The numbers are the numbers are small okay. Compared to like New York or something. But you know, in prog ram year 23 we had 30 closures. In program 24 we had 107. Carol: That is awesome. Lea: So yeah, I think that's pretty cool. I'm talking some of them are real careers, too, to real success story. Carol: Oh, I love that. Lea: That whole thing with the attrition before IPE has dropped really sharply. University of Hawaii at Manoa. They do a consumer satisfaction survey right for clients post closure, and we had the highest return rates ever and the highest levels of satisfaction ever, according to the university Hawaii, who's been doing these surveys for us. And then just some other stats to throw at you. But from program year 23 to 24, we saw our applications increase by 55%. That's applications for services. Determinations of eligibility increased by 59%, IPE development went up by 52%, and our vacancy rate for our staff has dropped to about 30 something percent. It's still high, but it's a lot lower than it was, and it's continuing to drop. And I've been able to fill some really key leadership positions where we had lost some very good people over those tumultuous years. So yeah, I hope I answered your question, but it's I think it's a lot of factors. Carol: You did. It's been amazing though. And you look at that. I love that those kind of family sustaining wages, people in careers. That was always super important to me. I didn't want to just, you know, jobs and food, filth and flowers. Although people can do, you know, there are people that do want those jobs, but that isn't the only job that's out there. Lea: Right. And that thinking long term. Carol: Yeah. Lea: You know, Chaz did training with us too. I'm thinking long term, like nurse's aide. Or have you thought about nurse? Let's see. What are the differences here. Carol: right. Lea: Yeah, I like that. Carol: Chaz is great at that. Bring it all. Lea: Yeah. Carol: Oh my gosh. Good for you though. Look at I think that just shows the power of when staff are trusted and they're feeling really good about their work and they're you're all in alignment on the same mission. You can really make huge things happen and including impacting your vacancy rate for employees, because I know you were much higher. I mean, it felt like you were like at 50% or something. So to have it even down to 30 is better. Lea: Yeah. I'm also looking at revising our CSPD requirements because they're super high right now. And of course, I believe in the master's degree and the CRC and all that, but I think there's some room for us to loosen that up just a bit, still be in line with federal regulations. But that's another thing that I've heard from staff. Carol: Yeah, that's a good idea. And there's probably a lot of people we could connect you with. Other states have done something similar to... Lea: Yes. Carol: ...kind of create space and layers and ways for people to get in and all of that. Lea: Yes. Now is a good time because of the Unified State Plan is coming. Carol: Yes. Perfect timing. Lea: Yes. Carol: Good pitch to make. It's like take advantage of that state plan. Time to make those changes. Lea: Yes. Carol: So what kind of advice would you have for other VR directors navigating tough challenges based on this experience? Do you have any other things you could offer your colleagues across the country? Because we got a lot of new people in, and there's a lot of really tough situations happening everywhere. You had quite a lot on your plate. So is there any other kind of things that could help them? Lea: Gosh. Well, I would say start by listening. Trust your staff. They already know what the barriers are. Trust yourself. Listen to your consumers. Your consumer organizations encourage, expect, I should say, rapid and ongoing engagement with our consumers. Help them to dream big and to think long term. Find a way to say yes wherever possible. Give our consumers all the skills and confidence that they need to really achieve their life goals. Celebrate wins, even the small ones. Be a broken record if you have to. Keep your mission visible. And just remember, if you focus on culture first, the numbers I believe will follow. And if you focus only on numbers, the culture will crumble. Carol: Really good advice. Lea: Yeah, there's just no task too big when it's done together. Carol: Oh, Lea, look at you go. Lea: Ahh. Carol: you made it all happen. Oh my God.! Lea: Oh, stop it, I'm gonna cry. Carol: Nah, you've been great. It's so fun to talk to you. I know chaz said at the conference people were crying when you had talked. There were so many people crying and coming up to you and really feeling so engaged and energized. Lea: And I was surprised how many people came up because I thought our story was going to be like the worst in the whole, you know, all VR. And I had people coming up kind of, yeah, sharing that they had gone or they are going through a similar situation and, people, can I hug you? Carol: Oh yeah. Lea: And I was like, oh sure. You know. So no, I, I'm, I'm so humbled and honored that you even asked me to speak here because although I know we've made as a team some progress, we still have a way to go. But we're going to get there. Carol: Yeah. See I just want other people to hear your message of hope and positivity, because I think we have a lot of directors feeling pretty, pretty sad right now. I'm pretty tough there in some pretty tough spots. And it you kind of you get that all internalized. I know from being a director too. Boy, it's hard to kind of pull out of all of that when you have just all of this piled on top of you, right? And it's hard to see sort of the light at the end of the tunnel. But your, your vision and just your whole message of really the hope and, and living into that mission and really the trust and all the things you've done, you've been doing the right things. And I think other people need to hear it. So I appreciate you doing this so much. Lea: Oh, thank you so much again. Thank you. Carol: Well, so I wish you much continued success. Thanks for your time. I hope you have a great day. Thank you. Lea: Thank you, thank you. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

December 1, 2025Episode 238 min

VRTAC Manager Minute: The Real Reasons Behind VR Counselor Turnover (and What You Can Do About It

In this powerful new episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with renowned researcher and educator Dr. Jim Herbert to unpack one of the most urgent challenges in vocational rehabilitation today: counselor turnover and retention. Drawing from his brand-new national study on RSA-funded personnel, Jim breaks down the real factors that influence whether VR counselors intend to stay — or walk away. From organizational support and supervisor relationships to workload, generational values, and work–life balance, Jim reveals why retention is a "whole system issue," not a single-variable problem. He also shares bold, practical solutions for VR agencies, including flexible scheduling, paid internships, rehiring retirees, strengthening supervision practices, and his attention-grabbing recommendation of a 32-hour workweek at full pay. As a new partner with the VRTAC, Jim also previews upcoming national recruitment and retention initiatives — including a new toolkit for VR HR teams and direct clinical supervision work with a selected state VR agency. This is an episode every VR director, supervisor, and counselor needs to hear. Listen now and join the conversation about the future of the VR workforce. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Jim: Supervisors play an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving. What I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay. What are you doing to try to address this? What's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource? We want to share that nationwide. So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisors and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it. {Music} Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Doctor Jim Herbert. Jim's a long time researcher, educator and advocate for the field of rehabilitation counseling, and I'm thrilled to share that he will also be working with us on the VRTAC grant in some exciting new recruitment and retention efforts. And today, we get to talk not only about Jim's earlier research on counselor turnover, but also his brand new national study on the long term effectiveness of RSA training and what predicts whether VR personnel intend to stay or leave. So, Jim, this makes me laugh to ask you this. How are things going in your retirement? Jim: That's right. Yes. As you know, I recently retired, quote unquote, effective July 1st. I'll just tell you that I'm in what they refer to as the honeymoon phase. So basically it's like, oh, I love it. So while I continue to do academic work, such as the project that we're working with you guys on, I'm really super busy with nonacademic projects like gardening and landscaping. And as you saw, we just got a new puppy who consumes quite a lot of my time, so it's going wonderful. Carol: I love it, I just have to chuckle because you are the busiest retired guy I know, so we were glad we could snag you. Jim: I'm glad to be snagged. Carol: That's awesome. So today we're going to dive into a topic that hits close to home for every VR professional. Why rehabilitation counselors leave the field, and what keeps others committed for the long haul. So let's start by imagining a counselor with a full caseload, endless paperwork, competing demands someone who came into this work to make a difference, but they're now struggling to stay motivated. What makes some counselors walk away while others find ways to stay the course? So let's dig into your work. So, Jim, what first drew you to studying counselor retention and turnover in VR? Jim: Well, as we'll discuss a little bit further, everything else in terms of VR and my work in VR, I have a long history and frankly, a long affection for state counsellors. 40 some years ago when I got into this field, I got to work with a lot of VR counselors and I have so much respect for them in the work that they do. And over the last couple of decades in particular, things are becoming increasingly more and more difficult. And so as we'll talk a little bit, maybe we can get into like your first questions about, well, which I think is a critical one, like, well, why is it that some counselors stay and why do others leave? And so, you know, when you look at that a little bit and feel free to interrupt me because, you know, many academicians, we tend to be a little bit long-winded. Carol: You're a talker, Jim. Jim: There you go. So, you know, when you look at it, it's really a combination of individual and situational factors. You know, when you ask counselors, well what attracted you to this? And I think people get drawn into the profession because they want to make a difference. They see people that need help and they feel like, hey, I'm in a position maybe I can offer support or direction and services can make a difference in their lives. So I think that's a big part of it. And then also as a result of that, why they get into that field, I think what happens is over the years, things start to change. They start thinking like, geez, you know what? I thought I got into this field, the job was going to be this way. And really now what I'm finding is it's not that way, or what happens is the thing that drew me in terms of the interaction with people and making the impact. I find myself spending more time with the documentation process and all the rules and regulations, and not as much time to really that I would like to having that one on one contact with people. So I think what happens is their job, their satisfaction changes as a function of kind of, you know, over that period. The other thing I'll just say to expand on why some people stay and why they walk away. I think one of the things in the beginning, especially with new counselors, their knowledge about the world of work and the job as a state VR counselor. They have a different understanding of what that's all involve. Okay. And one of the things that I think is important to, particularly those individuals, maybe in your audience who are thinking about being a rehab counselor, either switching in or pursuing training. One of the things that I try to stress with my students is make sure you get lots of experience. So while you're going to school and getting your education, do that volunteer work. Do a practicum. Do an internship with a state VR agency. I've said this a thousand, but certainly lots of times I'll say you'll learn more in the field from any lecture that I'm going to give or any rehab professor. So I think what happens with particularly newer counselors, they have a limited understanding about what is this job about and what do you need to do to be a successful rehab. So we only know what we know. So their expectations, I think they get a little disillusioned. A second thing though, as I said, the work of a VR counselor counselor's tough stuff. You know, you look at the research over the decades about things that impact rehab counselors decision and what is the things that they don't like. So lower salaries, comparison to other kind of counseling positions, high caseloads, the paperwork, lack of supervisory support, particularly in the area of clinical supervision. And we get a chance. I can talk about that a little bit further. There's also, I think, an incongruity between what a counselor has interest in their needs and what they're motivated by and what exists in the work environment. Those factors definitely contribute to work satisfaction. And the other thing we can talk about this in terms of our study, lack of autonomy, the inflexibility, you know, with work schedule and then obviously, you know, kind of personal reasons. So you've got all these factors that counselors have to have some resiliency to try to navigate all these kinds of challenges. And I think that's the key difference. What is it that counselor a can because they all have all these same challenges. Why is a say I can negotiate this whereas counselor B and I can't do that. And I think that probably over simplistic explanation is there is a resiliency for that. Counselors like I can take all of these and then I can look at yep, these are problems. But these other things still are important to me. And I can still kind of navigate that. And then the final thing, and I've become more and more aware of it over the last couple years, multi-generational workforce. So people are living longer. I mean, I, you know, I'm a baby boomer. I think technically I think I'm a late baby boomer, but so basically I'm ancient. But we have people, you have the Gen Z, and I think that's the group from 97 to 2012. You got the millennials born, you know, 81, 86. You got the Gen Xers and those when you talk with people from different generations. When I talk with my students who mostly the Gen Z millennial type. They have a different view about the world of work. And basically if I had and again, this I don't mean to stereotype, but I think there's some validity in this. And I have a son who's 28 years old and he'll say, dad, you work too damn hard. And so the thing is, is like what he's saying is, and I think others of his generation, there's more to life than work. And so when I look at work, while that's important, I don't have the same kind of importance necessary that you might attach to it. And in fact, what I'm really looking for is a better balance, work life balance. And this is where state VR agencies, I think, kind of fall down because we need to kind of how do we kind of create that better balance so that we have, particularly the younger ones who we invest a lot of money, effort, we want to retain them. We don't want to lose them. So that's probably more than what you wanted. Carol: It's all good. I have a 28 year old son, too, and we just had this conversation yesterday about work life balance, and I just said how lucky he was to work for a company coming right out of college where he was getting five weeks of vacation a year. Jim: Yes. Carol: And I talked to him like when I first started my first five years with the state. You got two weeks? Yeah. And it wasn't until five years you got a little more. And now you can get, like, two and a half or something. It was something horrible like that. But that view that this generation has, it is I think it's healthier, actually, than what we all did. We just put up with some pretty miserable. Yes. Working situations? Jim: Yes. Absolutely. You're correct. Carol: Can you walk us through the big picture, what your study set out to understand and why it's so important right now? Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like your phrase of the big picture. So let me see if I can cut to the chase. Maybe. And so I mentioned a little bit earlier that my work began here a couple of years ago as a result of kind of a pilot study. But basically I was interested because RSA provides a lot of funding for people trying to work as rehab counselors. But my pilot study about 4 or 5 years ago. So the big picture, to put it simply, is we got to do a better job of screening people who are interested in doing this work. And once we do that, we have to do everything we can to make sure that they continue in that. So my research basically is trying to well, let's dive into that and figure out why is it who stays and who leaves. Carol: So what did your research reveal about the biggest factors that predict whether the counselor stays or leaves? Jim: Yeah, yeah. All right. Now this one's going to be a little bit more detail a little bit more, uh, hopefully not convoluted. Carol: For lay people Jim Lay people. Jim: Yes. That's right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So without diving too much in statistical models and all that kind of stuff, basically what we were trying to figure out is this if we ask a rehab counselor, are you planning to stay for the next 12 months. Are you planning to leave? So we use that as kind of. Our big question is who's likely to say yes, I'm planning to stay or no, I'm planning to leave in 12 months. So we developed based on the literature that we saw, a hypothetical model that we said essentially this the amount that an organization supports their employees. So what is it that in this case, what is it that the state VR agency does that is designed not only to benefit the organization but also benefit the worker. So providing them with a decent salary, benefits, training, the opportunity for telework, telecommuting, flexible work hours, greater contact with clients. So we said, okay, well, that we know from the literature that seems to be kind of an important component. We also know from and this is work that I've done over the last couple of decades, supervisors play, in my opinion, an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving. And so the degree and type of supervisor support we felt, well, that will impact the employees perception of their jobs, whether they like their jobs, the career opportunities that exist within the agencies, and help them develop the skills that they'll need to grow to move on. So you've got supervisor support, you've got organizational career support. But we said, well, are there any other things? How does that kind of impact. And what we found was, well, we know that if you have a I'll just say for lack of a better simplified way to look at it, a supportive work culture that includes, you know, the supervisor that we know that that can impact the counselors hopefulness about their jobs and the level of engagement that they have. So the degree of vigor, if you will, the dedication that the worker performs, which also impacts job satisfaction. So our conceptual model basically says, well, if we could understand the complex relationship between all of the kinds of organizational supports of which there are many and we haven't identified, but just using that general term, the perceptions of how our individual counselor feels that they're doing in that job, the degree of satisfaction they get from it, and the amount of supervision, the level type of supervision supervisor provides. If all those factors are positive, if you will, they're more likely to stay as opposed to if they find the organization not supportive. They don't have a supervisor who's supportive, they don't feel engaged in the work that they do. So that's basically kind of what our model and what we found was that that combination of Organization support being hopeful about the job that I do. Having a supportive supervisor that promotes work engagement. Let me just use this analogy. If I had a pizza pie that said, this pizza pie represents all of people's intention to leave. Okay, well, what I just said that was if you have good support, organization supervisor, you're engaged. Half of that pizza pie is attributed to those factors. So that's a lot of pizza. All right. That's a big part of it. So what that means is if we think about for state VR agencies, what is it that we do as an organization that tries to promote that kind of support? What do we do in terms of our supervisors that are engaging with their counselors and provide that kind of support? If we can take a look at those factors, then we're more likely for those counselors say, you know what, I'm going to stick around. Carol: So did you have any findings that surprised you? Jim: Yeah, there were a couple of things. One of the things I know we're talking about state voc rehab. Our study of 1000 rehab counselors did not only address state VR, but also those in private for practice proprietary public nonprofit agencies and facilities. We also looked at counselors and administrators. So we're kind of interested in, well, is the intent to leave the same regardless of what your job title? In other words, does a counselor sort of have a different kind of intent than a supervisor, than an administrator? And we're also interested in well, does a counselor's intent vary as a function of the work settings? So in other words, our state VR counsel is more likely to express an intent to leave than those in private for practice rehab or nonprofit rehab. And basically what we found was when you look at all those outcome variables that we talked about work engagement, career support, job satisfaction, supervisor support, reasons for leaving, reasons for staying. When we look at that, what we found, and this was somewhat surprising to me, we found that there's really no difference whether across setting or job type. So in other words, the factors that motivate someone to stay or to leave are pretty much the same, regardless of your work setting or your job title. So that to me was a little bit surprising, because in my conversations and talking with counselors at various settings, somehow I always, I guess going into this truthfully, I was expecting that there would be a difference and particularly be more dissatisfaction with state VR than the other settings. And what we found was that's not the case. So the reasons for staying or leaving are essentially the same across settings and work title. So I just raised this finding because I think state VR unfairly receives criticism that their work environments particularly challenging and trying to retain workers. So I'll just say that every work setting has its own unique aspects to it. Carol: Yeah, the grass is not always greener. You always think that. And I have found over time, like working with people where you have that grass is greener mentality. No matter where they go, they always run into the same issues, no matter where they've changed the job. There's some people I've known for several decades who have always been kind of unhappy in the current setting, and they go to the new one and they're happy for a hot minute, but then they're unhappy there, too. So it's kind of more about them and whatever they're bringing to that or how they relate to those new jobs. It's so interesting. That strikes me as an interesting finding. Jim: Yeah, a lot of this was gleaned from interactions and stories and things that I heard from counselors, like, why do you stay? Why do you leave? And again, to me it's just amazing Easing that the similarity that exists. So clearly, while there's some nuances that, you know, a counselor will complain about large caseloads or noncompetitive salaries, limited schedule and flexibility, those kinds of things. One of the things that while there are some differences in terms as you move up the career ladder, if you will, as an administrator, maybe a little bit different, but the role of the supervisor, I think this was another thing that was a little bit I kind of knew, but it really reinforced it was how important their role is in contributing to the work climate of the counselor. And like I've said to the supervisors, and I've trained a lot of folks across the country, counselor job is tough. Supervisor's job is way tough because they have a lot of times. And what's happening now with the vacancies, the supervisors are now asked to pick up caseloads of counselors. So not only do they have to do the job of managing 5 to 10 counselors, now they have components, so it makes it really difficult. And I think when I listen to the stories, those are the things that kind of like really strike me as unfortunately, I think just getting tougher and tougher each year. Carol: 100%, kind of in reading some of your information and you go, okay, yeah. You think the counselor, all right, now they're going to be the supervisor. And it's going to be better and easier somehow easier. And it's not like they just realize how exponentially the job gets so much tougher. It doesn't necessarily get better. You might get paid a little more as you move up the food chain, but the work gets more complex, and then you're dealing with all the people part of the job. Jim: Absolutely. And you really hit it on. An important part is that unfortunately, most super like I do training in clinical supervision. So basically I train supervisors how to help their counselors become better counselors and the relationship they have with their clients. But what you find is, I'd say 99% of the supervisors that I've worked with, what do they know about clinical supervision? And, well, really not too much. And well, why is that? Because they didn't get that in their training. So they'll get all about the administrative components, the policies and procedures. And that's important. But how do you help your counselor with the relationship that they have with their individual customers? That relationship is so critical because if that relationship isn't positive, you're going to have a poor voc rehab outcome. Carol: Well, and those supervisors may have also not been you know, they didn't get any sort of clinical supervision when they were a counselor, so they moved to supervisor. It's not like they magically had that appear somewhere, right? So they don't have no frame of reference on how to even do that. Jim: Yeah, you're absolutely correct. Carol: So I know you stated, so some VR counselors, the state VR counselors, you know, they report more stress and paperwork, but yet they still find satisfaction in stay. So what distinguishes that? Like what distinguishes those who stay from those who leave. Jim: Yeah, yeah. Well, this gets to the earlier thing. We were kind of talking a little bit about the issue about resiliency, the issue about when the stresses of the job, when things are happening, sometimes will happen. Counselors will kind of take that on and they pay kind of a high emotional price, the investment with that. And so it's the counselor who can kind of keep that in check, cannot sort of internalize that. I can still do good work. Yes. It would be nice if I had lower case loads. Yes, it'd be nice if I got more money. Yes, it would be nice if this and that changed. So I think we talked a little bit about this earlier, but I think what really kind of differentiates those two counselors is just that ability to not kind of internalize that and as a result, still able to kind of negotiate the things that are necessary to move the client forward. Because if you kind of take all this in, you know, you go home at the end of the day, you're just kind of wiped. And so that's really to me, kind of a key component. Carol: Do you think that's something that can be taught like, or is that kind of how people are? That's the thing I wonder, like, Can you really teach someone how to, like, not get so emotionally involved into the situation? I mean, I suppose there's some techniques or something, but yeah, it might very well be just kind of the person you are and how you respond to things around you just in your life overall. Jim: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. And some would certainly say, and there's something to be said, sort of the nature nurture environment kind of issue. Yeah. There's clearly people that in terms of just kind of their makeup, this is how they, you know, they just they see the world half full, the glass is half full. I had a clerical person years and was the most upbeat. In fact, I used to call her Susie Sunshine. It's like no matter what, she just didn't get down. And I thought, is this for real? Are you on some sort of happy? What's this all about? So that's there's a part of that. But yes, it can be taught. And so a lot of it is, you know, in terms of our behaviors as well, how's that influence its influence in our thinking. So you can get very catastrophic. Like, you know, I got a caseload of 150. I'm stressed. You know, I can't get to all my clients. And, you know, I should be able to, you know, answer them within a 24 hour period. And if somebody asks to see me, I should be. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of things that you should. And yes, it would be nice, but you have to kind of ask yourself, given the resources that I have, I have to be realistic about this. And so it sounds maybe a little trite, but in some ways it's kind of like, you know, you got to cut yourself some slack. You have to kind of say, yes, if I had 25 clients, yes, life would be different, but I don't. Sometimes you can explain this to your consumers and sometimes, yeah, they get it. In other cases it's not. But you can't let that define who you are because if you do, you're setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations which aren't going to be fulfilled. So you're going to be kind of frustrated and yeah, probably leave the organization. You know, I was like, hey, this isn't for me. Carol: So it's really a practice thing. I mean, it's probably a time thing and a practice to kind. Jim: Of has to be. Yeah, it has to be intentional. And this is where in terms of a good supervisor working with the counselor, it's like, you know, boy, you seem kind of, you know, really stressed. What's that about? What's going on. What's the belief system that you're operating from. What are your expectations you're placing on yourself? And sometimes it seems so obvious to the outsider. And I can just say in my own personal life, I mean, how many times is like, you know, hey, this is really obvious to somebody else. she's new news to me. Carol: Yeah. Jim: sometimes. Yeah. You gotta have that outside perspective to kind of like, let's take a look about what? What are those messages you're telling yourself? And are they realistic? Carol: Right. What do you think are the most actionable steps that VR agencies can take right now? Jim: Well, I wanted to give a shout out to a couple scholars. Yes, I've done some work in this. Doctor Landon from Utah State has done some work in this. Doctor Wu from northeastern Illinois, doctor McFarland from San Diego State. Yes, I know Fred's retired, but you know his legacy. So besides my own work, those folks, if you look at some of their work and my work and the team that I've worked with, there's a couple things. And this is like a long, long list because I started kind of writing a few things out here. The obvious thing is offer competitive salaries, but given the historical and current climate, it doesn't bode well for states are going to say, oh, we're going to increase your budget by 15% or 20%, which would allow you to hire more counselors at a competitive rate. So with that being said, I proposed at a CSAVR conference a couple years ago what seemed to be kind of a radical recommendation. Let me start with the most radical thing first, and then we'll get into some other. So the radical thing that I proposed was I recommended that we move from a five day to a four day workweek. Now, I'm not talking about 40 hours, ten hours a day, four days of work. Because remember, we're talking about the culture and the climate. So working those extra two hours every day is like, well, yeah, I'd have a day off, but is that really going to be meaningful? So given that states a lot of times don't have as much influence in their budget, what I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay. Now, I can imagine some of you... Carol: Heads blew up, They did, yeah. Jim: Yeah. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Like, who is this academic? What the heck does he know? So before you discount that, let me just kind of invite those that might push back on that and say, well, just for a moment, just indulge me. Just say like, well, let's just say if we did that. Okay. Well, first off, I would offer that the average work week, I think, for most state VR counselors is 37.5, so it's not really technically 40 hours of work. You'll remember my earlier comments about the younger generational workers. They want to see that kind of work life balance. So having greater time to devote to myself, my family, recreation, other pursuits, those become increasingly important. And again, I'll just offer this. We didn't talk about this as a result in the study, but if you need any further evidence of the support for this recommendation, one of the research questions that we asked an ancillary one, but we basically asked them about what are your thoughts or feelings about a 32 hour workweek? And we looked at intent to leave and surprise, surprise, yeah, that was a significant predictor in terms of yeah, that would cause me to stay. All right. Let's unpack this a little bit further. I would offer to the State Counselor because again, we know what we know. We've always been 40 hours a week. And as I talked at the conference and I wrote in a Journal of Rehab article, you know, before the work week used to be 50, 60 hours a week, that was normal. You work Saturdays. All right. And it wasn't until Henry Ford said, you know what? Maybe we gotta rethink this thing. And, you know, he was proposing. Let's move to a 40 hour. Well, that was just heresy, because we just knew what we knew. So when we asked counselors and supervisors how much of an impact a 32 hour work week with no salary reduction, 75% of counselors and supervisors say that has a significant or very significant influence in me remaining on their jobs. My thought is, given we're not going to get more tip, most likely not a whole influx in terms of additional revenue for states. What can we control? Is this something that we can control? So that's like my radical. Okay. Carol: Yeah. You're Henry Ford now Jim. Jim: Yeah, I'm Henry Ford. Carol: I love it, I love it. Jim: I wish I was, at least I wish I was. I wish I was a descendant of Henry. so a less controversial recommendation. And frankly, it's funny because I see us kind of going back now and not in a good way. State VR agencies, while they offer telework, there are more and more state VR agencies are kind of like, well, let's get back to the good old days. Well, first off, I'm not sure that was kind of the good old days. I mean, clearly the pandemic contributed to a major societal change about rethinking about our work schedule. Before that, if the counselor said, hey, I'd like to stay at home for about three days a week and do my work. They'd say, that ain't happening. And so actually, what we find is, yes, you can do this job from home. And, you know, we have the markers, the accountability in terms of our statuses and, you know, the progress that you're making. So I mean, that's the bottom line. Are you getting closed successful rehabilitations with your clients. But now kind of what's happening is that we seems, at least what I've heard through talking with counselors and supervisors throughout the United States is there seems to be kind of a return of offering on site rehabilitation services. You know, that's something that I would ask us to really kind of take a look at that, and not only in terms of the telework, but let's think about the work flexibility. How often do we offer our counselors part time work or even evening hours? A lot of people retiring. That's a tremendous amount of experience that's going out the door. And you just wonder sometimes like, okay, so you want to retire. Great. Wonderful. But well, it's kind of like that's kind of what happened. Carol: That's what happened to you, Jim. Jim: That's right. So then the thing is kind of say, well, what if you work part time? What if you work X amount of hours a day or a week or whatever? So rehiring maybe recently retired workers. And again, let's focus on those that had proven track records. So, hey, they're a great rehab counselors and, yeah, we'd like to have them back. That's something could be done. Another thing that I think that could be done, and we used to do this in Pennsylvania, and unfortunately, it's at least as far as I know, we're not currently doing it. And if we are. My apologies to POVR - Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, but provide paid internships and if possible, offer employee benefits to graduate students who complete their clinical internships with the state VR agency. And the great thing about this from a state VR, you get to see, you know, when you interview and screen, a candidate, maybe you spend an hour or two with them. That's a lot different from seeing somebody five days a week over a, you know, five, six month period. You got a lot of information about this person. And also you have then kind of a buy in from them like, yeah, this gives me some idea about what this job is all about. So you know, doing that and I know in Pennsylvania historically, they would hold back some of their training dollars to help kind of support that. Maybe that's something could we look at? If we do? Just a little ancillary comment I'd make. Students graduate in May, August and December. So if you can somehow when you know, like, okay, we're going to have a vacancy, it'd be wonderful if you can kind of coordinate that with the times they graduate. So if, you know, for example, someone's going to retire and maybe they're going to retire in May rather than waiting May to start that job search, maybe start that job search March or April. And then because of the two months, oftentimes it takes to go through the screening and all the documentation and all that, then you can kind of coincide that, you know, and target it with those dates. Because I've had a number of students say, yeah, I'd like to work for the state VR, but I'm not waiting around 2 or 3 months. I need to get a job. I need to start making some money. So related to that, another recommendation I have is and some states are doing this trying to reexamine their screening procedure. So let's take a look and say look, what can we do to reduce the time between when we know a vacancy exists and the time of hire. So, as I said, most people, whether you're a student or not, unless you're currently working, you can't wait for 2 or 3 months. Other things that they could do is, you know, we talked earlier about the importance of the work climate. You know, we've got to monitor that. So we said that one's intention to leave that's mitigated based on whether the counselor feels they're engaged in that process. So that's an important predictor. And as it relates to that specific variable it's about 40%. Well that's a big deal. So the message is if I feel engaged in this process I'm more likely, more likely to stay. So we talked also about the role of the supervisor and how a lot of supervisors, unfortunately, while they do really great on the administrative components, the clinical components, the sit down with the counselor and let's take a look at your relationships with your clients and what I can do to try to help you to have a good, effective working relationship because I know if the counselor has that relationship with you, they're going to be more likely to get successful rehab. So constant assessment about what's going on now, how can we do that better? And, you know, through maybe stay interviews or, or even exit interviews to find out what did we do wrong. Is there anything we could do better? It's difficult because we have to be able to hear kind of things that maybe we don't like to hear. Carol: We don't like to hear. Jim: Yeah. And as you know, that's kind of a big part of where we're going in terms of my work with you guys. Carol: Yes. So on that note, you are going to be working with the new VRTAC and some recruitment retention pieces. So you want to talk a little bit about that. What that works going to look like. Jim: Yeah yeah yeah. And you know sometimes somebody said yes I'm very excited. And no you're not. No I actually I am very excited about this work and I really feel very fortunate. You guys offer me the opportunity to partner with you. So building on some of the stuff, we talked a little bit about, one of the things that we plan to do is develop this toolkit. And basically what that means is we're hoping to provide a resource for human resource managers, in particular, who work in the state VR program to try to help them and also state VR leadership teams, but also to help them address kind of the recruitment and retention problems that have been so well documented over the years. So I've begun looking at some of the existing literature as a way to kind of framework. Okay, so we've talked about a lot of this already. What is it that predicts who's going to stay? Who's going to leave? We haven't talked too much about the recruitment aspect, but that's another thing that we're going to address to say, okay, what do we know already in terms of the literature? But that's only a part of it. And the other thing that I'm really kind of excited about is the opportunity to work with the HR Resource Professional Group, professional teams. John Walsh I know has been involved with that as well. And basically what I'm hoping to do is because I know when you talk with states leadership team, sometimes a state will be doing something. I'm getting excited. Just kind of talk aboaut I can't even get my words out. They'll be doing something you think, man, you know, that is really cool. That's a great idea. Yeah. I wonder how nobody else, you know, knows about that. So it's amazing to me kind of the creativity that people have, but they just don't know about it. And so what I'm hoping to do is engage in a series of kind of focus groups, questions that gets to that, like not just what are the problems. I think we have a pretty good handle on that. But then what solutions? What are you doing to try to address this, what's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource that all states can use. So from the collective experiences from the various state VR agencies, we want to share that nationwide. And if everything goes according to plan, we're hoping to have that available in about a year, I think. Carol: Yeah, a little less than a year. Jim: Oh, a little. Carol: Okay, a little less Jim. Let's see. Jim: Okay. Carol: Reining it in. Jim: Yes, yes. Carol: And then the other fun thing, you'll get to work with a state. Jim: That's right. Thank you. The other component I've done clinical supervision training for about 12 different states. And I've met with each over the last probably 15 years. Each time I do it, I refine it a little better, a little better. And so I think I've got things down pretty good now. So I'm really interested now to work with the state to try to help their supervisors to work more effectively with their counselors, and in particular, how can I help supervisors to help their counselors become more effective as a counselor? And I have four kind of group supervision approaches that I know from. My research has proven pretty effective. So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisor and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it. So that's the other component to it as well. Yes. Carol: Yeah, we're really excited about that work. So Jim, thanks again for joining us on the manager minute. I really appreciate you being here. And for our listeners, if Jim has said something that is sparking your interest, especially with some work he's going to do with the VRTAC, please do reach out to us if you are interested in that for your agency. And until next time, everyone keep doing the great work that changes lives. Appreciate you. Have a great day! {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

November 6, 2025Episode 129 min

Reimagining VR: How the NVRTAC is Transforming Technical Assistance Nationwide

In this episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow welcomes Dr. Chaz Compton and Dr. Meera Adya, co-directors of the new National Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center (NVRTAC). They discuss how the Center builds on decades of innovation in vocational rehabilitation (VR) to unify training, evaluation, and technology that strengthen state VR agencies across the nation. Partnering with The George Washington University, the National Disability Institute, CSAVR, YesLMS, Case Review Solutions, SaraWorks, and Intellitech, the NVRTAC delivers comprehensive technical assistance to enhance performance, fiscal management, and employment outcomes for individuals with disabilities. Key initiatives include AI-driven tools such as SaraWorks and Case Amplify, designed to reduce administrative burdens and capture real-world impact. The team is also launching leadership and fiscal talent development programs, expanding recruitment and retention efforts, and embedding continuous evaluation across all initiatives. Their goal is to achieve measurable outcomes, real change, and a stronger, more efficient VR system serving individuals with disabilities. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Chaz: Right now, not ten years from now, but right today, we have the capacity to. Turn our administrative burden into an AI driven function that alleviates that burden. Meera: Input is getting provided at the beginning and the middle at the end all over again. It really is that measurable and real change and ongoing calibration towards that is our North star. Chaz: And having actual measurable outcome improvements. So simple as that. Carol: That sounds good. How about you? What do you think? Meera: Nothing to add. Measurable outcomes. Real change. Drop the mic. Carol: Boom! I love it. {Music} Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today are my close colleagues, doctor Chaz Compton and Doctor Meera Adya, Co-project directors of the new National Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center, or VRTAC for short. So woohoo you guys! I'm so excited to have you here. How are things going Chaz? Chaz: Wonderful. Very busy and very happy to be here. Thank you. Carol: Excellent. How about you, Meera? How's it going? Meera: Pretty good. Carol: Awesome. Well, glad to have you both. I just want to give a little bit of history for our listeners. The Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Centers have a long and rich history rooted in the Rehabilitation Act itself. And from the very beginning, the act recognized that helping individuals with disabilities achieve meaningful employment requires more than just funding. It requires a system of continuous learning, innovation and improvement. And that's why the Rehabilitation Services Administration has long invested in national technical assistance centers to strengthen state VR agencies, build staff capacity and ensure programs stay aligned with evolving regulations, Relations, research and best practices, and over the years, these centers from the early TACE centers to WINTAC and the QM and QE and AIVR TAC and all the things, and now the new NBR tech have become the backbone of progress in our field, helping translate policy into practice and ensuring that the promise of the Rehabilitation Act remains strong for the next generation. So let's dig in. Gang, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves and your journey into VR? And, Chaz, I'm going to kick it to you first. Chaz: Okay. Gosh, it's been 40 years now. Hard to believe. I started with a community rehab program 40 years ago this year. Carol: Wow. Chaz: A few years later, I moved into the public VR program in California. I was a counselor, a supervisor, and then a district administrator and got my doctorate degree at San Diego State University and moved over and directed the TA Center 15 years ago, and then the WINTAC and then the VRTAC-QM and now the what we call the VR TAC, the national VRTAC. Carol: That is awesome. I did not realize it was 40 whole years. Chaz, I think we're pretty close in age to each other. Chaz: It's been a while. Carol: Meera, how about you? How'd you get your journey into this world? Meera: Well, my work has always been at the intersection of empiricism and law and policy. So I'm a researcher and evaluator. I've done projects looking at how people with disabilities can be successful in workplaces and communities, thinking about inter work and the VR system. More specifically, I became engaged first as a partner, leading the program evaluation for Interworks Wintech centre. And then Chaz convinced me to come to Interworks continue doing what I was doing by taking the lead on the program evaluation for the VR, QM, and then our portfolio at Interworks has grown. Now there are several disability innovation grants and customized employment projects in addition to the TAC that we are leading the evaluation on. And Chaz then offered me the opportunity to continue growing my work, and here I am as the co-director of the center as a whole, and I'm honored and thrilled to support Chaz and our team. Take the work with VR and its partners forward to improve outcomes for people with disabilities. Carol: I love it Meera, and you're a good addition, and we're really happy to have you as the Co-project director, too. So what is the overarching purpose of our new VR TAC? Chaz: It is to provide technical assistance and training that will help VR agencies and their partners improve service delivery and increase the quantity and quality of employment outcomes for individuals with disabilities being served by VR program and their partners. Our major focus areas include helping agencies effectively manage the program, the performance of the program, the fiscal side of the program and their resources, and helping them identify and implement effective employment strategies and practices that accomplish the overarching goal of helping improve outcomes and service delivery. That's the big picture. Carol: It is cool because it's like soup to nuts. I think sometimes, you know, the previous TAC, you know, they had very kind of more specific focus. And then with the QM and like QE too, you know, it expanded. But now we've got the whole shebang in one place. Chaz: Mhm. Carol: Very fun. Meera do you have anything you wanted to add to that? Meera: Sure. I was just thinking about all the work that Chaz has been doing, the messages he sends us and how we've come together and so far trying to put it into an encapsulation. I've been coming up with one team or his words, but I think just such a good representation and you'll see that now in our messaging going forward, but also a yes. And we don't say no. We find a way to work together and is so what, what is the measurable change that's going to result from the work we do? I think you're going to see that over the next five years constantly coming up. Carol: Yeah, I like that, Meera. You got to keep us grounded in that. About the so what? So what we can do lots of activities. But so what about them? And I see, Chaz, you're smiling at me because, you know, I'm an activity person. And it's like, but what's the benefit from what we did? So how does the new TAC build on the work in the lessons that were learned from all the previous work? Chaz: Well, to say we've learned some lessons along the way, especially in the last ten years, would be an understatement. There have been the implementation of WIOA and all of the requirements associated with that, living through all of the implementation with agencies, helping them respond to that effectively, looking at the demographic shift in the field to youth, where now the majority of the people we serve are 24 years of age or younger. Looking at going into and out of Covid and how that changed service delivery, how the fiscal landscape of the program changed accordingly, how we have seen the pendulum shift fiscally from one side to the other and now back again. All of that has helped inform, I think, the development of our technical assistance and the training and the way we go into this new center. So we have just a bunch of lived experience, if you will, along with agencies. So what they have gone through, we have gone through with them, and I think we can help them successfully navigate the future. And while at the same time responding to the challenges that they face right now. So all of that, I think, really has laid an important foundation for the VRTAC and the work we're going to be doing with agencies. Carol: I think you hit the nail with that. I think about all the last five years, even the work I've done and our team has done and how deep we got in with agencies like it felt like we were part. I often talk when I'm in at agency, I talk about we like I'm part of them because you're enmeshed in everything they're doing and their systems and their people and their meetings and all of their things. You become so ingrained with them. It really helped you to get such a clear picture of what was happening and helps really get maybe at the root of some of the issues and to develop that work fundamentally so that the seeds we laid could really grow and germinate and keep going forever and keep growing and growing and growing. So it isn't just a one shot. We did a little quick training and we're out of there. It really became such a deep lesson. Meera, how about for you with that lessons learned? I'm sure evaluation wise there are things you were thinking about as well. Meera: Oh, absolutely. We have all of our past evaluation reports and findings, and we can keep looking at those. And I certainly keep bringing them up whenever it strikes me that there's a relevant point that comes forward again. And you can see with the way that Chaz has put together these innovative partners and projects, a continuation of the successful approaches and partnerships as well, and just a laser focus on measurable change that evolution and improvement and lessons learned is just baked into the center. As a research and evaluator, I know firsthand how the knowledge translation pipeline takes time, but it can take less time when you work directly with stakeholders from the beginning, and that's what's happening with us. Chaz has always taken evaluation seriously, woven it into the very fabric of the work. Stakeholders are the partners. They hold us accountable. We continuously are learning what's working. Pivot when needs must. Carol: Well said Meera. Thank you for that. What current challenges do you guys see in the VR system that make a unified national TA center so important right now? Chaz: To say that efficiency, accountability and improved outcomes are important would be an understatement. And this is not a new focus, of course. I mean, you have to go back to the movement of the Rehabilitation Act under the Workforce Investment Act of 1988, which was really an attempt to improve efficiency and refrain from duplication of services and improve outcomes and all that stuff. And that focus has just grown and grown, Carol: right. Chaz: and so a unified center is I mean, it really is helpful to ensure that everything is administrated under one center that we're focused on, you know, whether it's focused on improving performance, like on the performance measures, like improving an agency's ability to manage their fiscal resources or implement employment strategies like, say, customized employment, a unified center can address all of these aspects together, holistically, understand how they interact with each other and an agency. Instead of having 2 or 3 different entities trying to work together with a VR program differently, with different ways of doing business, ways of interacting all that. So it just is a very efficient, I hope. Anyway, an enhanced holistic way of working with an agency. Ultimately, I believe that will contribute to increasing the likelihood of positive outcomes. Carol: I like the part with the employment being in with us now. Not that employment wasn't in our mind, but it was distant because we'd always put it like we, you know, we're referring folks over to the Q2E, but now with it all integrated, it really does kind of front and center. You're thinking about the fiscal things that my group is working at and how our impact is helping the program, maybe for stability or whatever may be going on, does impact the employment outcomes in the end, and the funds that are available and whether people go on an order or not, you know, all those kind of things. So I like that having it all together, it's a little closer, at least in my head. Meera, did you have any thoughts about that one as well? Meera: I echo everything you both have said. The unified voice. Central voice. This center has always been a supportive voice. It is always on, always available, and that continues to be really needed. That is something we've heard in the evaluation interviews and feedback that we've received is that folks really appreciate being able to just call, get someone on the other end, get an answer right away, send an email, hear back right away. The responsiveness and the targeted information that they need has been phenomenal. And so looking forward to that continuing. And now across the whole range and spectrum of what technical assistance is needed. As you both have said, It's a time of, you know, as was said, significant change requirements may be shifting again, a laser focus on efficiency and effectiveness of work, which is right. And, you know, in the broader context, we're seeing significant disruption in the work world. And the future of work has been talked about. The future of work is here today. It's the today of how we work. And agencies need help navigating all of that with their customers. There's a lot for our stakeholders and our partners to navigate. I think we've seen from the evaluation feedback, this is where our team under Chaz really excels. It just brings together the many. It brings together the a lot. It goes to the heart of it and meets it on the grant. Carol: Yeah. You lead into my next question about the partners on the grant because we have a deep bench. I mean, I felt like we had really phenomenal folks on the QM grant. But when I look at the partners you all have brought together for this, and we're on our first meetings and you've got, you know, 30 people in the Hollywood Squares instead of a dozen or so. It's a cool bunch, and people with such interesting expertise. So Chaz, who are the partners on our grant? Chaz: Our biggest and primary partner is the George Washington University. We've been partners with them for really since national centers were funded. They were part of the WINTAC, part of the QM, and now we'll be a obviously a critical part of the VR TAC Every single one of them is a doer. Their hands are have their hands have gotten dirty and providing like literally in the trenches to just like our own staff at work Institute at San Diego State. We just have been, practically speaking, teammates for a very long time. We know each other well, we work together well, and we're very confident in each other's work. GW a big, huge partner of ours. Then there's the National Disability Institute, which is also a longtime partner of ours. They'll be helping with the employment strategies component of things and just are a very well respected, nationally known institute that is really has some super interesting and helpful information and resources and knowledge along with the rest of the team. Of course, many of our listeners will know. Yes LMS, we're working with Linda and her team this time around, expanding our available training resources to users out there. CSAVR of course, is another long time partner. Everybody knows them. Sara Works is a partner of ours as well. Sara Works has been a partner again since the WINTAC days and, you know, has done all kinds of work with us in terms of developing Sara, the AI program to help act as an assistant to VR programs, communication tool and so on. Then we have Case Review Solutions. It's just a new partner of ours this time around focused on quality assurance, case reviews, contract monitoring. So another use of software and technology to basically provide solutions to VR programs. And another new partner this time around in Intellitech, which has created a program called Case Amplify, which is an AI driven system, which we'll talk about here in a few minutes, but we're really excited about this one as well, because it provides an opportunity for agencies to see how things could potentially be different and more effective into the future. So those are our primary partners, yeah. Carol: yeah. It's exciting. It's a cool group of people I really was thrilled to see in the very secret proposal that you would not share with us before we went in, and then you see what all the things are that are going to happen. You are always known, though, Chaz, for being the guy. You have those little fun projects that become part of the grant that you know, live on and people are able to carry out and they've created really cool things. This proposal with the exciting AI initiatives, can you share what tools like Case, Amplify and Sara Works are going to mean for state VR agencies? Chaz: Absolutely. And I think it's important for folks to understand the why. Right. Like, why are these it's not just because they're fun and they are super fun. You're right. But there really is a reason behind developing these projects. And the primary reason is as agencies have implemented Wioa and this kind of goes back to lessons learned, right? We know that the data elements for, for instance, for the 911 and just the recording processes and all of the administrative responsibilities associated with being in compliance with the law and the regulations is a burden. It's a struggle, and especially in a period of time where recruitment and retention has been a challenge across the country. You know, when you lose people and they're the ones responsible for gathering and reporting this data, IT becomes a real challenge on everybody else. And I honestly, in my heart of hearts, believe that embracing advanced technology is the way out of this. It's the way to effectively respond to it. It's not by hiring more people to do administrative stuff, although that would be wonderful. But, you know, we're in this situation for a reason. And now we have right now, not ten years from now, but right today we have the capacity to turn our administrative burden into an AI driven function that alleviates that burden from VR staff. And that's what the why is behind this? Why are we doing this? Because we want agencies to see and participate. If you know, if they're able and willing in these projects to see what the impact could be. Now, of course, we don't know, for instance, what the impact will fully be. We have a vision for it. But part of what this is is an experiment, right? It's a pilot, if you will, to make sure that we can see how it works. So the idea is that and I'll take Sara because Sara's been around for a while now. A lot of agencies know Sara. They know what's possible. Several of them use the program. Now, in our case, like under the VR tech, we're going to be using Sara to do something for pre-employment transition services that we haven't done yet. Now we're ten years. 11 years. Well, I guess ten years really post implementation 2016 was the full implementation. So we're approaching the ten year mark. And while we focused on implementing projects and tracking and reporting and down to the individual consumer level and all that good stuff. Making sure costs are allowable, that people are spending their 15%, all that good stuff. What we haven't done a very good job of yet is evaluating the impact of those services on individuals themselves. Like how has it impacted them? What does it mean in terms of their future employability or future involvement in post-secondary Ed or whatever it is we're trying to determine? And so using Sara specifically to communicate and gather information with students or former students on the impact of periods, and then analyzing that data and showing the impact, that's really where we're zeroed in on this project for Sara Works. Case Amplify, well let me go to CRS. So Case Review Solutions is a new software program developed by two of our former colleagues in the WINTAC and the QM, Rachel Anderson and Brittany McIvor. So they know right? Like what is it about the review system, the case review process, the process, the quality assurance process that is lacking the internal control process, right? How do we fix that or help fix it anyway? Or help states analyze where the deficiencies are and then give them information real time quickly along multiple levels to help them address it so that it's not a consistent finding and monitoring reviews so that they're on top of the changes that they need to make. So again, it's another technology solution to a challenge facing agencies. And they're also developing a contract monitoring tool that's going to be available later on in the project. That will help states monitor another big one. Right. We hear all the time is we're not sure like whether those contracts are doing what they should be doing and the quality of service delivery and all that stuff. So that's going to help with that. Case Amplify is a AI program that Intellitech has developed. It's so exciting to talk about how this could potentially change. And I mean really change the way that VR staff are gathering and populating information into the case through case management system. Ultimately, it has the capacity ultimately to make the process hands free. That is, you can talk to an individual, and this system is listening and gathering information and populating all over into the CMS important data elements, summarizing meetings. And believe it or not, like if it does what we really want it to do, it's going to actually fill in the 911 data elements automatically based on these conversations at critical points along the pathway. Carol: That's a game changer for people that alone with those what, 400 elements like that is a game changer. Chaz: Yeah, I could not be more excited about this one than I am. I just think it's going to be revolutionary. You know, it's still in its development phase fully. It's still going to be kind of an experiment with agencies and how it integrates into their existing CMS. But that's part of why we call it a pilot, because it's supposed to be a way to kind of see if things work the way we want it to work. Carol: It's so cool. I am really excited. I'm also excited about the whole evaluation part of projects because I long thought, you know, when I was back in Minnesota blind and we were getting all those funds spent on students and I'm like, we're getting at these kids earlier. I just knew in my heart of hearts like, this is going to make such a difference in their trajectory is going forward and employment, they're going to start better. They're going to start better in college because they're going to have all this exposure to things they had not had any exposure to. Finally, the time we get at being able to measure, is that really coming true? I mean, I believe it to be true, but it'll be nice to actually quantify it and go, yeah, this is what's happening for people. And we can see the real difference. And that investment that Congress had said all those years ago, we're going to invest in these kids. And they did it for a reason. And now the proof is going to be in the pudding with the results. I love it. So, Chaz, one of your goals was to strengthen the workforce. So tell us a little bit about the VR Fiscal Talent Accelerator and NRLI, the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute. Chaz: Yeah. Great. So most people know NRLI. They've heard about it in the past and or even many participated. I remember at one point a few years ago at a conference, Steve Wooderson said, hey, how many people here have gone to NRLI. And I swear, three quarters of the room raised their hand. So it's over 20 years old now, and it's a training program specifically targeted at the executive leadership level, staff of the VR program and preparing them over a year long process where we meet in person for a week, four weeks out of the year, three times in San Diego, one time in Washington, DC. And there's coaching and training contacts that go on throughout the course of the year in a cohort model. So that is supported by the VRTAC this time around. So that's kind of our primary executive leadership training tool. Then we're developing something new this time around. For those of you who are listening, who are familiar with the management concepts training that was part of the QM, that was the VR grants management certificate program that we developed as part of that center. This time around, we are specifically zeroing in on the fiscal folks in VR and preparing a kind of like, nearly like program for them, where we'll use the same cohort model. I'm not certain of all the details yet, but obviously, Carol, you'll be a super important part of that one. And we'll provide an opportunity for fiscal staff in VR agencies who some obviously like every other position turnover at times. And when they do turnover, if they take the knowledge with them and nobody's coming behind them, it can be really challenging. So the Fiscal Talent Accelerator program will be a way to help them understand all of the responsibilities right under fiscal responsibilities in the VR grant, helping them really manage those resources and effectively so that the agency has both not just in compliance, but has the resources available to serve as many folks as possible. Carol: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm super excited about all of these projects. We've got a lot of work ahead. I know also, we had started spending some time under the QM addressing, you know, the recruitment and retention issues and leadership development and such. So how do you see that kind of expanding in the new grant? Chaz: Well, it's definitely expanding. And so we're very excited about that because we know clearly that recruitment and retention especially was a just a real, real issue in the last five years. So we had a recruitment and retention pilot under the QM that worked with four states. And we have some really helpful tools and toolkits developed as a result of that. That's on the QM site now, will be brought forward under the VRTAC, but more importantly will be going into phase two from that process under the VRTAC, looking again at implementing those strategies and practices for recruitment and retention with other agencies, tracking the impact of that over time, and expanding the scope of that. John Walsh was really helpful in leading that effort under the QM, and he'll be doing that again. Also, we're developing onboarding resources for VR programs this time around, helping agencies kind of identify both what to include and giving them actual stuff and resources to include in an onboarding program for VR staff. We're moving beyond just the executive level of training for nearly into mid-level management and supervisory training. Training specifically targeted at those groups, which I think will be really helpful and certainly very needed and engaging in succession planning processes with agencies, both strategic planning and succession planning understanding the two of them are clearly linked, but giving agencies some real strategies and practices on how to develop a succession plan and implement that, so that we're not faced with this sort of mass exodus of institutional knowledge. When people both retire or resign and we're like, oh no, what do we do now? Right. So hopefully we're intending to create resources, training tools to help agencies address that proactively. Carol: And we have some really awesome staff on this grant. This time around too, that can help. Our bench is deeper. You know, even in this area that are going to be able to help do that. So definitely. Meera, you have something you want to throw in there. I didn't forget you. Meera: Oh I don't think so. Chaz covered all the practices and new projects really well. Carol: Okay, Meera, I want you to tackle this one about the evaluation and data driving that ongoing improvement coming forward. Do you have thoughts about that? How's that going to look? Meera: Sure. I think I spoke to this a little bit earlier, but to pick up from that thread, I mean, that is something we are consistently doing. We have multiple channels and approaches that monitor the work and the change that are taking place. We have custom built apps and tools that our IT group has created, so we can make sure that we're setting up plans and staying on track with the agencies and the work that we're doing with them. And we have stakeholders, partners, customers, all of whom can provide feedback in different ways. We meet regularly to discuss what we are hearing and what we are seeing. Formally speaking, we have two reports that are compiled and shared broadly, internally and with stakeholders. We hold meetings, review the findings, and consider recommendations by taking that report apart and into little bite, but continuously throughout the year. We're not waiting for those big report moments. Evaluation Group has been woven into the work we do. They are a part of all the regular meetings that are taking place for the center, and input is getting provided at the beginning and the middle at the end, all over again. It really is that measurable and real change and ongoing calibration towards that is our North star. That will continue to be so. Carol: Led by the awesome you, which will be great. Chaz: Exactly. Carol: My final question to you too what will success look like for the VRTAC over the next five years. And Chaz, I'll ask you first. Chaz: Well, it will be demonstrably changing for the better outcomes in the VR program and service delivery. It will be serving individuals with the kind of commitment to meeting their individual needs and wants and desires and employment factors, and agencies operating efficiently and effectively and having actual measurable outcome improvements. So simple as that. Carol: That sounds good. Meera, how about you? What do you think? Meera: Nothing to add. He stole it right there at the end. Measurable outcomes. Real change. Drop the mic. Carol: Boom! I love it. So, how do people find you? Chaz: Our website will be VRTAC or just VRTAC.org. We have the site kind of really in its shell form right now. We're developing it. Give us a couple of months to get it fully going, but if you need to reach us, you can certainly contact any of us through the channels that you would normally reach us through the VRTAC-QM. Can send an email to me or to you or anybody else on the team. And at this point, I think most agencies are able to reach us in whatever way they want. But soon the website will be up and running and they can get us there or any number of ways. Carol: Awesome. Well, I sure appreciate both joining me this morning. It was super cool. And we can check back in in a couple years too and go like, woo, where are things now? It'll be fun to report on some more successes. So thank you both. Have a great day. Chaz: Thanks, Carol. Appreciate you having us. Meera: Thank you. Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.

September 2, 2025Episode 5420 min

From the Big Sky to Big Wins: Montana's VR Story (Final Episode)"

In the final episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow closes out the series with a powerful conversation featuring Chanda Hermanson, Director of Montana Combined Vocational Rehabilitation (VR). Chanda's lifelong passion for the field—shaped by family connections and early volunteering—has guided Montana's innovative approach to serving people with disabilities across a vast and rural state. Together, they reflect on Montana's recent breakthroughs, including legislative support for counselors, expanded telecommunications access, and the funding of a Blind Adjustment program. They also discuss the tough but necessary decision to enter Order of Selection, and how aligning with state priorities in behavioral health and foster care strengthens VR's impact. This inspiring finale reminds VR leaders nationwide to stay mission-focused, innovative, and unwavering in their commitment to meaningful employment opportunities for all. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Chanda: What are their priorities? The people that are making these decisions. Who's the chair of the committee? What do they want? Right. And really figuring out what the governor's office priorities are. These types of things. And then figuring out how to get ourselves into those conversations. Listen, listen, listen and then infiltrate. Carol: I know you don't have a crystal ball, but if you did, what do you have for some thoughts on what VR leaders need to pay attention to and what's on the horizon for VR? Chanda: That's tough. I wish I had a crystal ball. I think all of our crystal balls are broken right now. Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow. Carol: Welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Chanda Hermanson, director of Montana Combined. So, Chanda, how are things going in Montana. Chanda: It's good, busy, busy work and lots going on, but going good overall. Carol: Well, it's so great to have you back on the podcast. I looked back through the archives. Saw you were last with me November of 2021 and we were talking about, "Is Your Fiscal Management Managed Building a Solid Foundation for Fiscal Fitness". And you've done and you continue to do so, an outstanding job assembling a stellar team to support the fiscal side of the House. And of course, Anna Montana is one of our very favorite people. So for our listeners, I had the opportunity to reconnect with Chanda during the region eight meeting in South Dakota, and 45 incredible staff from the region came together for training, connection and sharing and it was a really fun two days. Eric, director of South Dakota General, was leading a portion of the meeting and folks were going around sharing about challenges and opportunities when it got to Chanda. She shared some truly inspiring things happening in Montana. And I thought right then and there. That is what I want to talk about on my last podcast. Over the last five years, we've covered so many meaningful topics, and we need to go out on a high note. This is our 54th and final episode of The Manager Minute. So together we started conversations, started a movement of rapid and meaningful engagement, tackled tough topics like order selection and finance work to bridge the gap between the DSA and the DSU highlighted so many innovative Diff grants and exciting initiatives from across the country. I truly believe we've helped plant seeds of change nationwide, so let's dig in. So, Chanda, for those who may not know you, can you remind our listeners about your background and how you got into VR? Chanda: Sure. I have been in the field about 20 years formerly, but I was in the field volunteering and doing other things previous to the formal employment with Voc rehab. My parents both worked in the field, so I was lucky enough to grow up in a household where this was our daily dinner conversations, and my parents and my siblings are recipients of Voc Rehab services, so the program's near and dear to me. When I was 19, the Montana started the Youth Leadership Forum. That was my mom's program at the time, and I was able and told that I she needed volunteers to work this summer program for youth with disabilities. And I came home and helped through that and fell in love with the work more directly than I did growing up. So since then, I tried other things along the way. But this is definitely where I'm meant to be and I'm so lucky to be here. I love it. Carol: That is super cool. I didn't remember that about you, I love it. My mom, she had been volunteer coordinator at our state hospital back in Faribault, Minnesota when I was growing up, so I remember very well going with her and helping, and I would volunteer for things and ended up working there before it closed and kind of just gotten into the whole field of disabilities. So our parents definitely can help us, like lead the way. That is just cool. Chanda: I didn't realize you had also. Carol: Tell us about Montana Combined, how many staff and consumers do you serve? And kind of what's your budget? Chanda: Like our budget's about $19 million a year annually, give or take, where things are going on. We have about 100 staff supporting the rehab program in our blind and low vision service programs, too. So that's the number of staff we have on board. We also have separate things out differently. So we have Pre-ETS in there. They're their own bureau. We have blind and low vision. They're their own bureau. And then we function together as a combined voc rehab program. Though we are serving about 5000 people under voc rehab and 3000 students in Pre-ETS. Carol: Wow. So you're not small. Sometimes people are thinking, oh, maybe you're from a small state. You're not a smallish program, you're more a mid-size. Chanda: And people are very far apart here. The numbers maybe don't look that much, but when you need to get to everybody in every corner of Montana, it's a trek. Carol: Yeah, and travel is rough. Like, it's not an easy haul. Chanda: No. Carol: So let's talk about your good news. What exciting developments do you have to share? Chanda: Yeah. So we just ended our 2025 legislative session in May. Our legislative body meets every other year for 90 days. So it is a fast and furious process. But we survived. That's always the first thing we did get through it. But we did get out pretty successfully compared to a lot of our peers in public health and human services and a lot of other programs just statewide. We went into the session asking, well, just start this off to we are lucky enough to traditionally get our state match without a problem. It's always just part of what they, it's our start of our base budget so that we are fortunate for that. Where we struggle is our staffing levels and getting the appropriation to get the FTE, we need to really provide a quality service to people more than managing those cases. We don't have autonomy over the number of employees we can hire, so that's always our struggle. So we went in asking for four FTE to support the individualized placement and supported employment model, and serving the serious, disabling mental illness population for counselors for that project and then one FTE to work in the state hospital. We are in and out of the state hospital, constantly taking applications and helping people prepare for work before discharge. We just thought that it would behoove us to actually just have a staff member in the hospital setting, rather than being disruptive going in and out. We also, outside of Oak Ridge, have asked for some more appropriation to support our telecommunication access work and two more FTE there, just given the high increase in need and work. And then we also requested funding and an FTE to create a Blind Adjustment program to meet the gap in services that we created when the homemaker was no longer allowed as an employment goal. So those were our asks. We didn't get everything we asked for, but we did come out with two new counselors for the STMI-IPS work and our telecommunication money into FTE. So while that's not directly related to VR, it does help our voc rehab program and help those participants in gaining access to equipment and services to make sure their communication needs are met. And then we also did get the funding for the Blind Adjustment program. So that was really exciting. It's been hard for us to turn away people that are going through the onset of vision loss, and if they're not really wanting to talk about work, it's under the age of 55. That's definitely been an area of opportunity. So we're excited to get to serve those folks now in a different way. Carol: That is super amazing, because it's almost like unheard of lately where people have kind of good news where you went in, you asked for these things and you got stuff. Chanda: That some of it not all, but some of it. And I also we didn't ask for it. It wasn't part of our decision package request. But our providers did a great job lobbying this year and they got themselves a couple of provider rate increases, so it amounts to about a 17% provider rate increase. And so that comes along with more state general funds. So that's going to give us more ability to draw down some realignment that maybe we wouldn't have been able to if those guys didn't lobby for those provider rate increases. Carol: So good on you. That is pretty incredible. I know IPS is a really popular program across the country and successful. It's wanted and very foundational. It's got good statistics about what has happened with that. Your telecommunications project. You talk a little more about that, what it all does. Chanda: Yeah. Our telecommunication access program provides phone equipment and maybe cell phones or some of your old big button phones and different speaker system type of things that we also cover the relay system in Montana, and we provide for transcription on zoom and public meetings and various groups around the state. So with the increased need for people to access broadband and internet. Type of activities we are seeing. Not only is the need increasing, but the cost of all of it's increasing too. So we're really happy to get to support that. Carol: Yeah, that is very cool. I know broadband was a big issue in Minnesota for a long time. When I was working at the Department of Employment and Economic Development, we had a broadband initiative because I wondered if yours had a little to do with that, because we have super rural areas. I mean, you definitely we have the Twin Cities, you know, metro area, but you get out state. It's tough. And people are talking about, you know, if you wanted to be self-employed or different things you can do via internet. Well, yeah, only if you can access that. If there's no connectivity, you're done. Like you don't even have that option out there. So I really get to pay attention firsthand at how important access to communication is for everybody. Chanda: So important. And we already are experiencing, you know, in the disability community, isolation issues just in general. So this is really a great solution to get to people if they're out in a very frontier part of Montana. This can help really get them a sense of community in other ways. Carol: Yeah, that's just direct boots on the ground. Wonderful access for folks, I love that. So I'm sure you had to do some background stuff. You didn't just waltz in and go, hey, I want this stuff. Give it to me. They're not likely. They're like, yeah, we like you, Shannon, but not that much. We need something. What kind of things did you pull together, like, data wise, to support your request? Chanda: Sure. Well, first, it's just paying attention to what elected officials priorities are. That's the first kind of anecdotal data to be gathering. So really listening to the governor's initiatives and what his priorities are, along with, again, these elected officials that are on our committee subcommittee making the decisions about are the first decisions about our budget, which is the most important decision as it works our way through the entire session. So through that, we really observed that there's strong emphasis on behavioral health systems change in Montana in foster care, too, and we realize we are part of that system, not in the way that everybody was talking about it or thinking about it. I'm a lot more of what they're having to talk about, right? As case management and housing and all the other things. And employment doesn't even rise to the surface when you're hearing those things, because it's just different mindset. And so we took that and leveraged it to start joining those conversations and talk about how employment is a social determinants of health for the population, and all the benefits of employment that augments and assists all the things that they are talking about. It helps with treatment and recovery and provide stability can help with the housing issues. It gives people a sense of purpose. All of this prevents relapse and homelessness. And so just really getting to take the opportunity to join the conversation and talk about it in a different way to just educate folks on how employment can support all of this other work they're doing. A lot of people tend to lean into safety, safety, safety, when they're making these decisions, not realizing that employment is part of that safety. And I think a lot of times people really get linear thinking like, okay, you need x, y, and Z, and then you're going to be ready for employment, not realizing that employment can come in any step of the way and really change the trajectory of all those other things you're providing them. So through that, we dug into the data. What are our caseloads look like? What is the general population for people needing behavioral health services in Montana? And we found that 34% of Montana's caseload are individuals with behavioral health disabilities. So that equates to about 1500 people on our caseload right now. And when you look at the general census in Montana, there's about 163,000 people with health disability. So we are only serving a sliver. And we know that typically through our research that two thirds of people with behavior, health disabilities typically want to go to work. So through combining all of that data and telling a story and telling stories of people successfully navigating this in their communities. I do believe that that's what helped us get across the finish line, to make sure that we can really do more work, and we're excited. It is important to us. Carol: Yeah, you were really smart. I mean, you were listening. I can hear you. You were listening to what people were talking about. And how could you leverage and be part of that conversation, which takes time. I'm sure you didn't do this in a day. I mean, this takes years. Like building relationships and getting invited to those meetings and being able to discuss those ideas. I think that is brilliant. What would you say to your fellow colleagues across the country who might be wanting to consider something similar in their state? Like, what would you suggest to them on how to start or how to get kind of involved or part of those conversations? Chanda: I'm just going to reiterate again. Listen, listen, listen. It's the beat of our drum. The last 2 or 3 years of the leadership team here in Montana has been listen. Listen, listen and then infiltrate. So what are people talking about? What are their priorities? The people that are making these decisions. Who's the chair of the committee? What do they want? Right. And really figuring out what the governor's office priorities are, these types of things, and then figuring out how to get ourselves into those conversations. And we're really lucky in rehab because we touch everything, whether it's manufacturing coming into the state or behavioral health issues, or what can we do to improve foster care systems in Montana, you name it. Many of the things that the legislators are worried about and are making decisions about, we touch so we can get ourselves at the table and talk about how we can influence what they're talking about and how we're already making an impact. It's so cool what we do. Carol: It is cool because we have such variety. It makes the job super creative, like you can really do a variety of things that are amazing and wonderful and impact people's lives in such a big way. Like you say, with employment, you know that trajectory. Sometimes people think you need all these things first? But boy, you get that job, which also helps in with your housing and all the other things that are going on. You can intersect at any point. I love that, I think that's really good. I know you don't have a crystal ball, but if you did, what do you have for some thoughts on what VR leaders need to pay attention to and what's on the horizon for VR? Chanda: That's tough. I wish I had a crystal ball. I think all of our crystal balls are broken right now. I don't have a thought of what is on the horizon, but I do know that we just need to stay focused on our mission and values and the vision of what we have and don't falter. We have and work for one of the coolest programs out there and get to be innovative and creative and like we were just referring to, we can pivot and message around so many things that make what we do compelling to different decision makers. I think that's pretty unique, and I think there's ways to take advantage of that to make sure that we survive and thrive regardless of what happens, because we do have so much impact across the board. So but if we don't, we need to stay focused on our mission and values to make sure we're successful and don't get lose sight of that along the way. Carol: I agree with that 100%. I think living into our mission and doing it well and not drifting kind of all over the place. If we get people disabilities into employment and good employment, not just food, filth and flowers, but real employment, that's what it's all about. And when we get distracted by other stuff, or maybe our performance doesn't look as good and all of that, we got to stay focused early, head down. Here's what we're trying to do, because that's the whole reason this wonderful program has existed for over 100 years. So head down, do the thing. Chanda: Yes. Carol: 100%. That is awesome. Well, this actually wraps up our final episode of The Manager Minute. Now, I know you have some other news. Probably. Do you want to talk about it today? Because you are going an Order of Selection, and I know states are facing that as well. We've talked to a couple states lately about that, talked with Indiana, talked with Cora in Kentucky. And while we have all this wonderful work going forward, we still have this lever that Congress lets us pull when we don't have all the resources to serve every single person coming at the door. And for you, this is a really live situation that's happening as we speak. Chanda: Correct. We actually went into Order Selection today. We closed categories two and three. So it's been a long process working with RSA since February. But we're happy. It's bittersweet. I mean, we're not happy to get order of selection, but for the health of the program and to make sure that we can continue to provide high quality services and to not dilute client services, it's what needed to happen. Our caseloads are unmanageable. We're looking at caseloads that are about 170, on top of just the general cost of services continuing to increase. Our fiscal forecasting was clear we needed to get into order sooner than later so we could manage the best we can. Carol: It's a good way to look at it, because you don't want the services to dilute, because it ends up where staff are kind of applying an order without the order being in play. You get a lot of people getting a little bits of stuff instead of people really getting what they need. And so it does provide a more organized way in which to structure and to handle all of this. And I like that about it. I think Congress wouldn't put it into place. If we weren't allowed to pull the lever and make that happen, it does make it organize it. It helps your staff to be able to do the work that they want to do and to help people to get into employment. So I think that is very good. Do you have any thoughts for your colleagues on that too? Because I've had several calls, even in the last week. Again, people are like, I think we're looking at this. Any tips for people out there? Chanda: The one thing I would say is relook at your CSNA, get familiar with your data that's out there. That's going to be important as you look at amending your state plan and contact RSA sooner than later. I had received that advice from a colleague and that was I wouldn't, I don't think have naturally contacted RSA that soon in the process and I'm glad I did. Carol: Yeah, that's 100% smart advice. Definitely talking to your team sooner than later. They can help you along the way, for sure, with that. Well, I wish you good luck with all that implementing. I know it's tough. I mean, it is tough in the messaging, but I know also you have built back from even when we talked in 21 that financial solid group. And so your fiscal forecasting is on Anna is on it. You have really good people and they are doing really good stuff with making sure you have the data for making good decisions. I just think your team has been very amazing and that has been an a lot credit to you in helping to build that foundation. Chanda: Well thank you. We have an awesome team and I truly can't believe that that podcast was four years ago. That was definitely a different time. And we have improved and built infrastructure now, sound methods and internal controls. So it's good to know that the decisions that we're making are dead driven, inaccurate, and that is what we need to do to stay healthy. Carol: It's a whole different world. It really is. And it is funny. It's been four years, but I sure appreciate you being on today. And so this does wrap up my final episode of The Manager Minute, and I want to say thanks to every listener, guest, and colleague who's been part of this journey. Keep leading with purpose and passion because what you do changes lives every single day. And Jeff, you get the honor of hitting the lights. We're `out. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

August 1, 2025Episode 5329 min

VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Finance Without Fear: Kat Martin Breaks Down Budgets, Revenue, and Reality in VR. How to navigate the complexities of VR finance with clarity, confidence, and heart.

Finance doesn't have to be scary. In this episode of VRTAC-QM's Manager Minute, Kat Martin, Finance Director at the Oregon Commission for the Blind, joins Carol Pankow to break down the complexities of government finance in vocational rehabilitation. Kat shares her journey from the private sector into VR, the lessons she's learned managing federal and state dollars, and the difference between budget authority and actual revenue (spoiler: it's not as simple as it sounds). From making reports accessible for blind colleagues to explaining why finance people should bepartners—not compliance enforcers—Kat offers practical advice, thoughtful insights, and a healthy dose of humor. Whether you're new to VR, leading a program, or just finance-curious, this episode delivers the wisdom you didn't know you needed—plus a little reality check on what it takes to manage complex funding with heart and clarity. Listen Here Full Transcript: {Music} Kat: It took me a bit to wrap my head around was the difference between budget and revenue. I like the way my executive director describes it to other directors. You have to be paying attention to what's going on with your budget, not because that's the amount of money you have to spend, particularly with federal funding. That is what you have authority to spend. That doesn't mean you have that revenue to spend. If somebody has helped you out, pay it forward, help the next new person out that got their eyes crossed and looking overwhelmed when they're trying to figure out what in the world is re allotment, let alone carryover and maintenance of effort. Carol: Oh my gosh. Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow. Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Kat Martin, finance director at the Oregon Commission for the Blind. So, Kat, how are things going in Oregon? Kat: They're going well. We're getting started on a lovely summer and a new biennium and trying to close out the old ones. So, you know, busy is always in the finance department. Carol: Yeah, all the things. Nothing like getting the finance director like turnover of a state year and all that. I know you got a lot of things going on. So as the QM grant is winding down, I thought it would be great to hear from a respected VR finance director, someone who's walk the walk. Kat has been a standout voice in her fiscal management community of practice, sharing advice that's grounded, real, and incredibly helpful. So, Kat, let's dig in. So, Kat, can you tell our listeners a bit about your career journey and how did you land in your current role? Kat: Sure. Thanks, Carol. I worked in the private sector for the first decade or so of my life and realized after about a decade of that that I really needed work that spoke to my heart. And coming from a family of educators, I was a little too late to go back to school and get my teaching credentials at that point in time. But I decided to pursue mission focused organizations that were helping others. So I worked for about six years for a law firm that represented the disabled and injured individuals before the Social Security Administration and the Washington State Department of Labor and Industries. And then I went into public education for about 15 years. About five years ago, I left public education and came to work for the Oregon Commission for the blind. And it was my first role in the world of vocational rehabilitation. So it was a new experience for me. I love a good challenge and it's been that for five years. Carol: That sounds amazing. I always love to hear how people kind of make their long and winding road into VR, because none of us ever usually get here very directly. So I know when you and I chatted before, you have just some great perspective on any role you take. How do you go about building that solid foundation when you start a new role? Kat:, You know, I came up through the accounting departments, specifically accounts receivable. So I was working with invoicing and collecting bills, and I experienced a lot of success in those jobs, so much so that I was moved into first supervisory and then management positions and eventually the C-suite role. And when I moved into my first CFO position, I worked with an amazing campus president who talked with me about the fact that my focus up to that point in time as the director of accounting for the organization and my prior professional experience, had been very much compliance focused. And that as her new director of finance, she needed me to be more of a fiscal partner to not only herself, but my peers on the leadership team. So, you know, that took me a little bit to figure out, because when you've been doing it for decades, it's easy to be a compliance goon. It's a little more difficult to figure out what being a finance partner looks like. I recognized that particularly when I was starting a new role like the one I did in VR five years ago. It was really important for me to understand who I needed to form relationships with, what the systems were that I was going to be utilizing to complete my work and to manage those that were completing the day in and day out of the accounting work that we were doing. And then also what were the policies, procedures and standards? So when I start a new job, I like lay out my first 100 days and I create myself a little Venn diagram that is all about those three things where at the intersection of that right in the middle, that's the work that I'm going to be doing for the organization planning, organizing, directing and monitoring their finances and the fiscal health of the organization. Carol: I love that you have that people, systems and processes. I mean, I think that sweet spot in the middle where all of that intersects is really wonderful. You've talked to me before about this whole compliance goon fiscal partner, and I do like that approach. Can you talk a little more about what that really means to you and kind of how that's played out? Kat: Yeah, it's really about people and about relationships in a vocational rehabilitation agency. We are helper humans and even fiscal employees, accountants, your travel coordinator, your payroll specialist. They need to be helper humans as well, because it's easy to get all wrapped up in the way we have to transact these certain things or the deadlines that the state lays down. If it's an enterprise wide system that you're using and sometimes lose sight of the fact that the people we are serving are actually the employees who are providing the direct service to the blind Oregonians that we serve at the Oregon Commission for the blind. So I have worked very hard to develop that in myself. And the way I've accomplished that is beginning first with the people I'm going to be serving and whether that's my boss, my peers, my employees, that to report directly to me, my employees that report indirectly to me or those other individuals in the larger organization, like the state's chief financial officer and the state's legislative fiscal office, and maybe the procurement office and the Payroll Services Office to make sure that I know what our place is, but also how we can provide the best possible services within that matrix that we operate in to those eventual end users that we're there to serve so that they don't ever have to worry about, am I going to get paid on time? Is my computer going to be working? Those kind of things I tell my staff when we're doing our jobs exceptionally well, nobody knows what we're doing. And then that allows them to focus on the work that they're doing with our clients. Carol: How long do you think it takes, really, to get settled, especially coming into VR for a finance person? How long do you feel like you know what, I got this, I feel proficient what I'm doing because I think people have this idea that can come in. I was an accountant here or a CPA, or I've done something else. But you come into this program. How long do you feel it takes you to really get a handle on what's going on. Kat: A full fiscal cycle in the state of Oregon, we operate on a biennium, so that's a full 24 months. I had been with the agency for two years before. I really felt like, oh, now I'm repeating things and there's a lot of repetition in a finance role, regardless of what role it is, there's a lot of repetition. But what makes it complicated in the VR world, in my state, for instance, is we have state fiscal years that end on June 30th, and then you have your federal fiscal year that ends on September 30th. So right there, those two things are out of sync. And then the VR awards in particular, are the most complicated revenue stream I've ever worked with. Braid those in with the general fund that you have to be on top of, which is truly available to you, and you can sometimes lobby for more. But there's a lot of politics and personalities that you have to deal with when you're trying to obtain more general fund for your agency, and then the limited amount of other funding. So I have been working as a finance director since 2009, and I would have to say that these last five years, it has been the most complicated fiscal management for an organization that I've ever touched upon in my career up to this point in time, because of those complexities between the state and the feds in fiscal years that don't align. And we're on a biennium where, you know, the federal awards are one year, and maybe you can get carryover if you do all the things you got to do to meet the requirements around March to get there. Carol: And you're confirming what the feds say, because David Steele, who's the unit chief for the fiscal unit at RSA, he often says this is the most federally complex grant. And I remember hearing him a long time ago thinking, is it really? But yeah, it really it really is. Proof is in the pudding when you're actually doing that work. So given all of that complexity, how do you implement like strategies or things that you do to help your leadership, like literally be able to interpret and understand because it is like talking to different languages. And how do you get your whole executive team kind of on board with what's happening because you have these realizations and insights. But that isn't always apparent in the VR world, because a lot of people are not they're not math people. They're people people. They're social services people. They don't know about reading a spreadsheet. You just show them these numbers, and their eyes kind of glaze over and they hear you talking, but they don't know what you're saying. Kat: Yeah. I think the first thing I try to do is keep it short and simple. And that's not to say that these individuals are not intelligent. They are highly intelligent, and they have skills and expertise that I'm incredibly impressed by. But I have different skills and expertise. And if I'm going to provide the information to them that allows them to make informed decisions about not only what we're doing in the present, but for the duration of whatever the fiscal period is that we're in and for the long term. Then I need to present the information in such a way that it's digestible. Now I work for a blind agency, so that means it needs to be accessible. I see a lot of spreadsheets that folks like myself love to create. You know, it's fun to get in there and do the color coding and the formatting and have multiple tabs that support your summary. Conclusions and charts are then the next best thing in the world, right? You can spend a lot of time on that. And yet my director of rehabilitation services can't see any of it, can't read any of it. So what I need to create for her and for the other 20% of the employees at my agency that is usable and digestible is very straightforward spreadsheets that are readable by the assistive technology they use in order to do their jobs. The other thing that I do to try and help the leadership team, and my executive director in particular is I insist upon regular report outs. It's really easy to be just like, yeah, yeah, Kats got it. Budget to actuals are going to be fine. She knows we don't want to leave any general fund on the table at the end of the biennium. She'll let us know how we're doing with match, but she'll take care of all of it. And what I let them know is I report on the money, but I don't decide how it's spent. I know what's in the purse, but the executive director is holding the purse strings and you all are influencing that spend. So by insisting upon regular report outs, I review budget to actual data summary grant reporting, cash reporting on at least a weekly basis. Right now I'm reviewing that more like 2 to 3 times a week, because it's the end of the biennium and startup of a new one, but the management team gets finalized reporting once a month that is based on the accounting close. And not only do we distribute that to them with the highlights, we want to pinpoint in written format, but then I also present on that every month at the leadership team meeting, when we're reviewing other results for the month and other measures that matter to us. Carol: I think that's really super good advice for our listeners. I've seen it all across the country. I mean, I've seen where sometimes fiscal people, they are calling all the shots. They aren't that partner. They're like, hey, I'm the one that knows you all can't do math. I'm deciding. I'm doing. People are signing for the director. You know, they're sending stuff in. Directors get it? Zero clue. And while that can be a way to operate. Boy, highly not advisable. Because at the end of the day, the director is the one holding the bag. You know, the buck stops with them. If something goes wrong, something happened. They're the one. And those are the ones that end up getting fired or whatever it may be. So I'm always on the new director end of things. Encouraging people to learn as much as they can. And it's just like learning anything. You take one step at a time, one item at a time, one cell on the spreadsheet to gain understanding. You're not going to be instantly an accountant, but you can get to a level understanding where you hear what's happening. So I appreciate that you've had that experience, because I think you always bring so much to any conversation. Having worked in a blind agency, when you're thinking about how am I going to convey information in a way people can read it for one with assistive technology, not make it so fancy that you kind of lose sight really, of what is trying to be conveyed. So I think you really have great advice there and that you're the partner. I mean, you're advising and then the director's deciding. I think that's a really lovely partnership. What have been your biggest surprises and lessons learned in this role? Kat: Well, first and foremost, it is more complicated than budgets, significantly larger than what I'm dealing with now because of the interplay of federal and state. Some of the surprises that came to me early on were around the timelines and how important it is to create a calendar of key events that not only takes everything going on with your state into consideration, but all those federal timelines, particularly the federal reporting timelines. We now, after five years, talk about the months between October 1st and the end of January as federal reporting season, because between the support we provide to program with some of their program reports that have fiscal elements in them, and then all of the federal financial reports that have to be submitted during that period of time. There's 18 different reports that my grant accountant and I prepare, review, discuss, and then, of course, go over with the program directors before they are ever submitted to our federal funding partners. Carol: I'm a huge fan of the calendar. I just have to say, I literally we get calls. I had one of the finance directors from one state. He will remain unnamed, but he calls me on April 30th and he's like, please don't tell me a report is due today, and I'm like, uh, yeah, this is gonna be a really bad day. He said, I gotta go, and he, like, hangs up the phone. I'm like, calendar this stuff. You need the calendar. Oh my gosh. Drives me crazy. Kat: It's important. And I mean, one of the surprises that came to me is I started with the commission in August of 2020, and a couple of days after I arrived, my senior accountant and we have a small shop. At that time I only had one accountant and two accounting technicians. My senior accountant went out on a family leave of absence about two weeks early. So here I was, no VR experience trying to figure out what the heck I'm doing. I don't even have access to most of the systems. And as it turns out, as the agency security officer, I give everybody else access. But nobody knew how to give me access. So that was an interesting start. And when she came back from her leave, she said to me, so how did that SF 425 report submission going? I'm like, what? SF 425 report submission. So I missed I started my career with the Commission for the blind by missing a federal Financial Report submission. Carol: Oh my gosh. Kat: I'm still here. So I guess it wasn't the end of the world that we were late with one report. Carol: How do you find it so different between like government accounting compared to the other accounting work you've done? I always hear from people that go, government accounting is like nothing else I've ever been exposed to. Kat: Yeah, it is very different in that having worked in the private sector and the for profit sector for a number of decades, obviously you're looking for efficiencies and effective ways of doing business that drive your bottom line. The profit imperative is just that don't be fooled by what the for profit organizations say they're really about. Making money is what it's all about in the end. But in the public sector and definitely for the government, one of the things that it took me a bit to wrap my head around was the difference between budget and revenue, and I like the way my executive director describes it to other directors that you have to be paying attention to what's going on with your budget, not because that means that's the amount of money you have to spend is because, particularly with federal funding, that is what you have authority to spend. That doesn't mean you have that revenue to spend. So figuring out how to keep track of where am I at, actually, with my approved budget and my limitations on the federal fund and other fund that I operate with? And where am I actually at with cash available to me through my federal grants, was something else that was very new to me, because every place I'd been before budget was budget. You had that to spend, even in higher education, in the public sector. It was like I had that budget to work with for the entire fiscal cycle. Not true here. So you really have to be paying attention to that difference between budget and revenue. I started to say my executive director describes this to other directors. She tries to put it as think about budget as being the line of credit. If you had a credit card in your wallet. Think about it as the line of credit that you could spend up to, but your revenue is actually how much money you actually get paid. So if you have a $50,000 line of credit, but your income for the year is only going to be $25,000, you're going to have a problem when you spend up to that line of credit. Carol: That is such an awesome point. We have seen lately. There's been some really interesting things with the budget Authority, and this has to do with kind of the reverse, where for whatever reason, you have a federal grant say you get $100 million. But the legislature has said we are only going to give you $90 million of budget authority. And that's cropped up more and more. And so people forget because you've got program income coming in and you've got other kind of sources of these revenues. And the legislature has set this limit. And so you're bumping on it, but your eye is over here. You're looking at well, yeah, but I've got I can match and I can draw these funds. But for whatever reason the legislature hasn't given you enough authority to actually maximize and utilize everything available to you. That is super concerning for folks. And the thing they weren't watching. Really? Kat: Yeah. And we all know of a state recently that got into difficulties with that. The thing to keep in mind with that too. And we were in a spot where we had to go back to the legislature and ask for an increase in our spending authority, which is even more complicated than going to just the legislative body, because we have a governing board of commissioners. So first we have to go to the commissioners and get approval to take this before the legislature. And there is a lot of months of lead time in order to accomplish those things in the correct order. We needed to do it because we were fortunate enough to receive an additional sum in the Re allotment process last summer, so we were going to be okay with the amount of revenue we were expecting with the existing authority we had to spend. My concern, of course, was we don't got enough money to get through the end of the state fiscal year, let alone the federal fiscal year. So we went after re allotment. Then I didn't have enough authority on the federal side, so we had to get permission from our board of commissioners. Then of course, go through the legislative process to increase our federal fund limitation. Carol: Well, and that's a whole other probably lesson learned is the whole legislative process and those cycles for the legislature and all of that. That is no small feat to understand. I'm sure your calendaring all of those dates as well. Kat: I am. Our agency is small enough that not only am I the finance director, I'm also the budget coordinator, so it's helpful to me at the same time. My office is situated a couple hours away from the state capitol where the legislature meets. So for a hearing before Joint Ways and Means, for instance, that maybe is going to last five minutes. It's a four hour round trip, but I go down there for those meetings and I'm ready to answer any questions should they come. Carol: That's excellent. That's excellent. Now, I know you have been, are particularly like vocal finance director and participate in things. You've done a great job with networking, and I understand you have a bit of a fan club at CSAVR. So what happened there? What's going on with that? Kat: You know, one of our asks of all of our staff is that they be on camera when we're in virtual meetings, and it's in part because as a blind agency, we are trying to help our clients be prepared for virtual meeting environments as we're helping them launch into the working world. So we need to model those behaviors, right? So I just developed the habit of whenever I'm speaking, even in large group meetings, like the community of practice that you and your team run is that I'll not only come off of mute, but I'll come off of having my camera shuttered so that people can see me talking. I don't know why, but it's become muscle memory, right? Well, as a result of that, because I have a lot to share at times and I want to help others the way I was helped when I first started by fiscal directors with more experience that had been, you know, around the block a couple of times. I like to try and offer up my contact information as well, so people can feel free to reach out and get in touch with me. So when we were at CSAVR the last session, kind of surprisingly, my director and I were walking around and there was a couple of folks that, as we passed, were like, your Kat, right? Your Kat from Oregon blind. And I'm like, I am. And they said, you know how helpful it was. Some of the things that I had berbled out in one of the community of practice meetings and that it had really helped them wrap their head around the topic or the concept or whatever it may be, and also then have conversations with their leadership team and their executive directors, which I was kind of blushing, but I appreciated hearing that what I had done was helpful to others. Carol: Oh, 100%. We hear it all the time. Whenever you come on and you give some advice and people be like, that really helped me. You know, we've had folks come back the next month and they're like, that really helped me. I was able to talk to our finance people and whatever, you know, any of the things. They were so excited. You've been an immense help. So let me spin that a little different way. Maybe you can help some of our directors. So fiscal folks are coming and going just as quickly as directors and executive leadership. What suggestions would you have for those VR leaders that are hiring fiscal staff? Because sometimes people think they're bringing in somebody and it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread. And then they're like, this didn't work out at all. Kat: Yeah. Carol: So I think folks, especially when you're talking to non-math people and such, they don't tend to know. What should they ask? Kat: Yeah that's a tough one because on paper it is really hard to assess somebody's education and their stated experience in the positions that they've had before. If you're not a finance person and even understanding the difference between accounting and finance, I have to explain to people again that are really intelligent individuals. I mean, they have their master's degree in counseling and rehabilitation. And yet explaining the difference between accounting and finance is something that I do pretty regularly. My first suggestion to directors would be, if you are at all uncomfortable with accessing the written materials that you're receiving in terms of resumes and a well-written cover letter, find somebody in your state that knows a little bit about fiscal and accounting, or rely upon a recruiter. If you're using the state's chief human resource office to help you assess not only the minimum qualifications that you should be asking for when you're going to turn over millions of dollars to an individual who is going to be responsible for planning, organizing, directing, monitoring and reporting on that money, but also in your preferred qualifications. Look for things like foundational knowledge of appropriations and grants. I don't put that as a minimum qualification because I didn't come in with foundational knowledge around appropriations and grants, but I'm eminently teachable. So that's another thing to look for, is, is this somebody that's a lifelong learner? Do they like a good challenge? Are they good with change and do they know how to lead change? I've experienced this quite a bit in the state of Oregon. We have, since I've arrived, adopted two different enterprise wide solutions for payroll and time tracking, contract management and procurement that we didn't really have a choice to adopt these, but the implementations were intended for very large agencies, and we're an agency of 67 employees. So figuring out how to do these things that you're required to use by the larger organization, that you are a part of being the state at your agency to complete the work that you're going to do is somebody that really needs to be a quick learner that's adaptable, and that can lead change because technology is influencing all of our lives and with what's coming with AI, it's going to continue. And these are good things, but it can be tiring if you think you're going to get in the door as a finance director, and it's all going to be business as usual after you've completed that first fiscal cycle. The other things executive directors could look for are somebody that is curious. I think I mentioned flexibility, but adaptability is very important. When I was interviewing for my role, our VR director, who is fully blind, said to me, how are you going to present materials to me so that I am able to access them and read them? And for me, that was like a oh, how exciting, a new opportunity to take my knowledge and present it in such a way that somebody that I've never worked with before, having a visual impairment or blindness, can also use it. So what do I need to do differently to meet their needs? Not expecting them to accept whatever it is I'm pushing out their way and be just like here it is. If you don't get it, well, that's too bad. The last thing I would mention, and this is just because your fiscal director does have a great deal of access, it's important to remain diligent in managing that employee, just like you would any of your other direct reports. I am fully aware of the responsibility that I have for these millions of dollars that our taxpayers dollars, when all is said and done. So you know you don't want to be so trusting of the person that's managing your finances, that you set yourself up for any kind of a situation where maybe a good person does something not so good because they're in a very difficult spot. So that's where even if you don't know, finance, finding somebody in your own professional network that maybe knows a little bit more about this, that even if you ever have a slight inkling, you can say, hey, you know, my finance director told me this. Can we noodle that around just a little bit? Because I want to make sure that it's all okay. Based on your years of experience doing this and your relationship with your finance director. Carol: That's good advice. Kat: Yeah. I don't mean to be skeptical. I think it's just realistic to know that when you have access to and the ability to move around millions of dollars, you should be diligent in managing them just like you would anybody else. Carol: And things have happened across the country in years past, and people have lost jobs and all kinds of things. So it is no joke. That is excellent advice. Do you have any final kind of words of wisdom for our listeners? Kat: Don't be afraid to admit what you don't know. I mean, early on in my career, as I was being promoted into management positions, I was like, fake it till you make it right and we can all do that. But the further I've progressed and the older I've gotten, I've developed some of that crone wisdom that comes at this decade of your life, which is, boy, there's a whole lot I don't know. And there are people out there that have been doing this for a while. So who do I need to meet? Who do I need to form a relationship with? Who can be my buddy? And then how can I pay that forward? And that would be the other advice is if somebody has helped you out, pay it forward, help the next new person out that got their eyes crossed and looking overwhelmed when they're trying to figure out what in the world is re allotment, let alone carryover and maintenance of effort. Carol: Oh my gosh. Well Kat, I really appreciate your wisdom and your honesty. You are so direct. I love it for our listeners. If you're a leader or fiscal staff or share this episode with somebody new in the role, they do not have to do this alone. Thanks so much for joining me today, Kat. Kat: Thank you Carol. {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. 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