The Grow and Convert Marketing Show

Hosted by Benji Hyam and Devesh Khanal

Business Marketing

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Jun 2026

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We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.

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June 8, 2026Episode 5418 min

Does Third-Party Content Actually Drive LLM Brand Mentions More Than Your Own Site?

"Third-party content drives 85% of brand discovery in LLMs." It's the GEO stat making the rounds on LinkedIn right now, and a lot of marketers are using it to argue that your own site content doesn't matter anymore- that GEO is really about getting mentioned everywhere else.We disagree. And we have client data that contradicts it.In this episode, Devesh and Benji break down where this narrative came from (an Air Ops post citing a Graphite study), where the methodology breaks down, and what we're actually seeing across our clients in Traqer.ai. The short version: big brands like Salesforce and Peloton skew studies like this because they already have category-level brand awareness. For smaller players like Toro TMS and Climb Hire, clients we've worked with where their own content is essentially all we've done, they're pulling strong brand mentions across ChatGPT, Perplexity, AI Overviews, AI Mode, and Gemini. That's not third-party publications doing the work.We also get into:– Why Perplexity, AI Overviews, and AI Mode behave differently than ChatGPT and Gemini (and what visibility numbers look like across each)– The growing evidence that LLMs may decide what to recommend from training data and a loose SERP read first, then find sources to cite after the fact– Why competitive categories (CRM, exercise bikes, content marketing agencies) need a different playbook than less-saturated ones– Why your own site is the only place with enough canvas to spell out the specific use cases, pain points, and customer types that LLMs match against real user conversationsReferenced posts: Invisible Prompts and Topic-Based GEOhttps://www.growandconvert.com/ai/invisible-prompts/https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/topic-based-geo/This is the companion to last week's episode on self-promotional listicles for SEO. Watch that one first if you haven't.Subscribe for new episodes. Newsletter and full written breakdowns: growandconvert.com/newsletter#GEO #AISearch #ContentMarketing

May 27, 2026Episode 5336 min

Is Google Cracking Down on Self-Promotional Listicles? Our Data Says No

"Self-promotional listicles are dying" is the new SEO narrative making the rounds and we've had multiple clients Slack us asking if we should change our strategy of producing list posts.In this episode, we break down Lily Ray's Substack post that started it all, walk through why the data she shared shows correlation but not causation, and pull up the actual rankings of category-keyword listicles we run for clients to show what's really happening after the late-January 2026 traffic dip.Then we get into the part nobody else is talking about: - How to actually write these posts so they hold up through core updates. -Why you don't need to force-rank a list. -Why you don't need to call yourself "the best." -Why the first-person "I tried all 15 of these" framing is a lie that backfires. -And why product schema hacks will get your site torched.We walk through a negative example, then show two posts that have ranked through multiple Google updates- our own "Best Content Marketing Agencies" post and a client example in trucking management software.The full written breakdown with screenshots and ranking data is going up on the blog — link in the newsletter: growandconvert.com/newsletterFull blog post on this topic: https://www.growandconvert.com/seo/self-promotional-listicles/

April 10, 2026Episode 5245 min

Topic-Based GEO: The Content Strategy Framework for AI Search

A client told us ChatGPT kept recommending Grow and Convert until she had to reach out. So we copied her exact prompt into an incognito window. We were nowhere to be found. That one example changed how we think about AI search strategy entirely.In this episode, we introduce Topic-Based GEO, our new framework for content strategy in the age of AI search. We explain the concept of "invisible prompts" (the personalized context behind every AI search that makes prompt-level tracking unreliable), walk through how to build a topic map for your business, and share practical steps for creating the kind of content that actually gets LLMs to recommend you.

April 2, 2026Episode 5144 min

GEO Is Not SEO: The New Rules for Getting Recommended by AI

Most people optimizing for AI search are focused on the wrong metric.Getting cited by an AI model feels like a win but a citation doesn't mean you're actually influencing the answer. And after sampling AI search prompts over 20,000 times, the data makes that painfully clear.In this episode, Devesh and Benji from Grow and Convert sit down with Bernard from Clearscope to break down what's really driving AI recommendations and what isn't. They get into why Gemini searches an average of 5.7 times per query while ChatGPT barely searches at all, why Google appears to be actively suppressing brand citations even when it mentions you, and why the GEO "hacks" everyone's pushing right now (schema, Reddit, you name it) aren't moving the needle.The bigger takeaway: training data controls 70–80% of what AI recommends. Web search only affects 20–30%. Which means the content strategy that actually works in this new era isn't about producing more it's about going way more specific.In this episode:Why getting cited by AI ≠ influencing the answerGemini vs. ChatGPT: how differently they search (and why it matters for your strategy)The brand suppression finding: why mentioning yourself might be hurting your citationsWhy "Content 2.0" is about persona-specific, long-tail content not volumeHow Grow and Convert is evolving Pain Point SEO for the AI search eraRelevant articles:Invisible prompts: https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/invisible-prompts/Topic Based GEO: https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/topic-based-geo/

March 17, 2026Episode 5027 min

Your ChatGPT Traffic Is 5-10x Higher Than You Think

Your ChatGPT traffic is probably 5-10x higher than what your analytics shows.We used to think AI traffic was a small fraction of Google. We showed you the data a few episodes back — ChatGPT was about 3-4% of organic Google traffic across our clients.We've revised our thinking.In this episode, we break down why analytics tools are dramatically underreporting LLM-driven traffic and leads, why Google AI Overviews are creating the same attribution blind spot, and what you should actually be doing about it.The core issue: when someone discovers your brand in ChatGPT or a Google AI Overview, they don't click a trackable link. They open a new tab, Google your name, and land on your homepage. Your analytics says "direct" or "organic." The real source? An LLM.The only way to know? Ask them.We walk through real examples from our own data and client accounts, show exactly how this plays out in ChatGPT and Google AI Overviews, and share what we're changing in how we measure and report on content performance.

March 9, 2026Episode 4940 min

AI Is About to Create a New Kind of Marketer. Here's Why

For the last 10-15 years, marketing has been dominated by the performance marketer - everything measurable, everything attributable. Creative marketers with big campaign ideas couldn't get the budget or the dev and design resources to bring them to life. AI is about to flip that.Now a single creative marketer can go from vision to finished product- building interactive tools, data-driven content pieces, mini apps, landing pages- without waiting on developers or designers. The people with the best ideas (not just the biggest budgets) are about to win.In this episode, Devesh and Benji break down why this shift is happening, how Grow and Convert is using AI internally to maintain their quality bar while unlocking entirely new types of content projects, and why most agencies pumping out automated AI content are setting themselves up for failure.We also cover which AI predictions from 2023 actually came true, what Google's "shadow penalties" look like in practice when marketers try to automate content, and why producing written blog posts at a high level is about to become table stakes for good content teams.Read the article: https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/ai-creative-marketer/

February 12, 2026Episode 4833 min

Topic Based GEO: Why You Need to Measure AI Visibility with Topics Instead of Individual Prompts

Did you know that when you ask ChatGPT for a product recommendation, ChatGPT can recommend 50+ different brands for the same prompt?In this episode, we break down Rand Fishkin's latest research on the extreme variance in AI search results across ChatGPT, Claude, and Google AI Overviews. His team gathered 600 volunteers, ran nearly 3,000 queries, and the findings are eye-opening. Here are some key insights:LLMs can share 50 different companies for each product related prompt. The chance of getting the exact same list of brands twice is less than 1%.The top 6 brands are mentioned over 80% of the time. So what does this mean for marketers trying to track their GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) performance? Most AI visibility tools give you a misleading snapshot — you ran one prompt, you showed up, and you think you're winning. But run it again and you might not show up at all.We walk through Rand's key charts and takeaways, explain why "rank" is meaningless in AI results (unlike SEO), and show how the top brands in any category still get mentioned consistently 70-90%+ of the time. Then we hop into Traqer.ai to show how our topic-based GEO approach — running multiple prompt variations per topic — gives you a far more accurate and responsible picture of your actual AI visibility.If you're doing GEO or reporting on AI visibility to leadership, this is a must-watch.📖 Rand Fishkin's full blog post: https://sparktoro.com/blog/new-research-ais-are-highly-inconsistent-when-recommending-brands-or-products-marketers-should-take-care-when-tracking-ai-visibility/🔗 Our blog post on Topic Based GEO: https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/topic-based-geo/🔗 Check out Traqer: https://www.traqer.ai/

December 22, 2025Episode 4721 min

How We Use AI to Edit Content (Without Losing Your Company POV)

(Sorry about the audio quality on this one, it was recorded with the wrong microphone-- this episode is better viewed with screen share on Youtube)Most teams struggle with AI writing tools because they try to use them as a replacement for writers (and they use tools that don't understand the core arguments of what is trying to be said).In this video, Devesh walks through a real example of how he uses our AI writing tool Wave Writer at Grow & Convert to edit and restructure content. You’ll see how a rough outline and half-formed ideas can be turned into clear, on-brand draft copy, without losing the core ideas and without hallucinations.The video covers:How outlining arguments first leads to better AI outputHow to speed up the editing and content creation process using Wave WriterWhy writing final prose is the slowest part of content workIf you’re responsible for editing content, managing writers, or shaping content strategy, this video shows a practical way to use AI that supports thinking instead of trying to replace it.Check out our product https://www.wavewriter.ai if you're interested in using an AI writing tool that understands your business, key arguments and helps speed up the writing process while keeping content quality high.

December 11, 2025Episode 4646 min

The Step-by-Step GEO Strategy to Rank in ChatGPT, Perplexity & AI Overviews

Most marketers track their AI visibility… but have no idea what to do next.This episode shows the exact GEO strategy to actually increase your mentions in ChatGPT and Perplexity.In this episode, we show you exactly how to implement GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) the strategy brands are using to increase their mentions inside LLM answers.You’ll learn:Why most AI rank trackers are inaccurate and how we rebuilt Tracker to scrape real results (not API hallucinations)How to turn visibility data into action — what content to publish, what topics to prioritize, and where your gaps really areThe GEO Pyramid and why 90% of marketers focus on the wrong tacticsHow to find the exact pages LLMs are citing — and how to influence them with targeted content and outreachWhy you MUST choose bottom-of-funnel topics if you want actual pipeline from AIA step-by-step walkthrough of improving visibility for a real company using owned content + targeted citation outreachIf you want a clear, repeatable strategy for ranking in ChatGPT, Perplexity, and Google AI Overviews, this episode breaks it down.📩 Join the newsletter: growandconvert.com/newsletter🔧 Learn more about Tracker: https://www.traqer.aiGEO Pyramid article

December 2, 2025Episode 4522 min

LLM Citation Data: 86% of Sources are Industry-Specific (Not from Generic Sites Like Reddit)

Are you focusing your AI visibility and PR efforts on Reddit, Wikipedia, and media sites like The New York Times? You could be wasting your time and money.In this episode of the Grow and Convert Marketing Show, we dive into the data from our new study on Large Language Model (LLM) citation patterns. We reveal why the advice you see on LinkedIn and in broad industry reports—telling you to chase large, general-purpose sites—is completely misleading for most businesses, especially B2B and niche companies.What You'll Learn:86% of citations are for industry specific sites vs. 14% for "general purpose sites": See actual data from our client base that shows 86% of LLM citations for niche topics come from industry-specific publications, while Reddit, Wikipedia, and YouTube account for only 14%.Differences in how to approach AI visibility for your brand vs. Household name brands: Discover why B2C household names (like Tesla and Peloton) do get cited on general sites, but your niche B2B software company won't. The problem with measuring random prompts: Understand how broad studies that use 5,000 randomly selected keywords are statistically biased toward consumer queries, making their findings irrelevant to your specific business goals.A New Tactical Framework: Learn the exact, actionable steps for a Citation Outreach strategy that works : how to choose the right topics, identify the actual cited domains using tools or manual checks, and target your PR efforts where they will actually drive AI visibility.Stop doing general PR and start showing up in the AI answers that matter to your bottom line.Links & Resources:Read the full article for more detail on the study: https://www.growandconvert.com/research/llms-source-industry-sites-more-than-generic-sites/Check out our AI Visibility Tool: https://traqer.ai Catch up on our overall GEO Framework: https://www.growandconvert.com/ai/prioritized-geo/ Don't forget to like, subscribe, and comment to support the Grow and Convert Marketing Show!