Designer & Designer

Hosted by Brian Fling, Joe Alterio

Technology Arts Design

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Apr 2025

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About the show

Designer & Designer is a podcast about design. Each episode dives into a design topic with candor and humor, exposing the rarely talked about challenges that designers face, and what it takes to create great design.

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51 recent

April 25, 202544 min

Growth

Mentioned Medium’s Snowflake Growth Tool (original GitHub repo) Stanford Product Design Rubric ( Stanford Design Program ) I, X and T shaped Designers Book: Radical Candor by Kim Scott Book: The Visual MBA (or Creative MBA — verify the exact title) Short Story: The Swimmer by John Cheever Newsletter: Good Work by Joe Alterio – goodwork.is Topics Discussed Growth ladders: how to define and measure designer growth Craft vs. Influence vs. Ownership vs. Communication vs. Engagement Developing fair, non-linear growth frameworks (including a Medium-inspired "Snowflake Tool") Challenges of upper-level design leadership (craft ≠ promotion criteria) Managing biases and subjectivity in design career advancement Importance of presence and communication (even on Slack!) Transitioning from craft-focused design to diplomacy, storytelling, and team leadership Reflection on the potential "end of an era" for traditional product design careers Life reflections: parenting, aging, mortality, and evolving beyond professional identity 🎬 Sneak peek: Next season’s theme — Top 10 Design Films exploration! Pull Quotes "At the upper levels, it's not about pixels anymore — it's about affecting change within other human beings." — Joe "Presence matters. Even in Slack. It’s visibility, engagement, and political capital." — Brian "We’ve reached the end of something... but the beginning of something else." — Brian "Growth isn’t just learning new tools — it’s learning how to move people and systems." — Joe 📣 Shout-outs To everyone who has listened across these 50 episodes — thank you for helping us grow. To our future selves: onward to new creative adventures (and maybe even bagel making). Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Please like, subscribe, and give us any feedback! Outro music: Bridge to Hawaii by Tacocat Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

April 19, 202546 min

Prompts vs Pixels

Mentioned V0 by Vercel that generates front-end code Builder.io for creating UI flows from language prompts UXPilot for generating UI from specs Lovable for different design styles Perplexity as a tool that bypasses SEO spam Why do AI company logos look like buttholes? Jakob's Law of Internet User Experience 23:48 Brian says he didn’t do a great job unpacking the confusion and buzz around “agentic AI” and that many people conflate multi-shot prompts, agentic AI and AI agents. Most real world “agentic AI” today doesn’t exactly match the definition used in research papers around AI agents. 38:00 Great story of a UX designer using Figma’s MCP (Model Context Protocol) Server and Cursor to create functional code. 41:00 The Shape of AI | UX Patterns for Artificial Intelligence Design Topics Discussed Large Language Models (LLMs) vs other AI technologies The rapid standardization of AI interface patterns AI tools in designers' current workflows Multi-shot prompts and agentic systems The tension between "prompts vs pixels" in product development How AI is changing the designer's role The new "industrial revolution" we're experiencing with AI Pull Quotes "Most AI researchers believe that the AI models have already reached 100% scouring of the web, right? So anything that's public is probably in those foundational models, which means they're not really going to grow much in the next five years." –Brian "It will make the most basic patterns. It will pull the most basic stuff... But what it won't do is it won't make it interesting." –Joe "I was a little bit stunned by how quickly that locked into amber... that they're all chat-based interfaces. They all use magic wands or sparkles or something." –Joe "A society that prioritizes productivity is a society without imagination... if the goal is to just get the data as fast as possible to do things better and faster, you are saving time for what?" –Joe "This is a new enlightenment. This is a new industrial revolution... Everything is changing." –Joe Other Resources on AI & Design The case against conversational interfaces Emerging UI/UX Patterns in Generative AI: A Visual Guide UX patterns for AI-powered experiences Emerging UX patterns in Generative AI experiences What I’ve learned from 18 mths of AI conversational UI design Generative AI UX Design Patterns Scarcity and Abundance in 2025 Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Please like, subscribe, and give us any feedback! Outro music: In the Year 2525 by Zager & Evans Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

April 11, 202513 min

Mini Episode: Zuckerberg, AI, and the Long Game

Mentioned Arthur C. Clarke did die in 2008. Brian has no idea what he saw now. The Tech Oligarchy Arrives Mark Zuckerberg's political shift Meta's Llama AI models versus other foundational models " Making the world a better place " from Silicon Valley TV show The world is not as bad as we think it is. HyperFixed: Kristen Has Doubts Alternative social platforms ( Bluesky , Glass , Pencil Booth ) Starting a Series B Company Climate tech investments Topics Discussed Big tech's rightward shift Corporate motives behind progressive policies Tech's abandoned idealism Reclaiming technology for social good Finding hope in alternative platforms Pull Quotes "There was all this optimism about changing the world, making the world a better place." "The masks are off and you understand that a lot of the family friendly policies and the pride banners and all that stuff, it is strictly employee morale capture." "The bloom is off the rose." "We've got to figure out a way to take it back. Social media and the web, those are ours. That belongs to us, the people." "Long game, long game. Let's collect our shit together, support each other. We can do this." Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! Outro music: Hard Times by Baby Huey Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

April 4, 202545 min

Big Rooms, Small Rooms

Mentioned Oranssi Pazusu MIke Sugarman Blackgaze Context Collaspe Designing for the Pluriverse Enshittification ProSocial Media Kala, the Suburban Miner Topics Discussed How did we get to this place of totally siloed communal activity? Big Rooms and Small Rooms Where the Weird Still Is Making the web civic-minded again Ethan Link's Ethan's Personal Website The Initiative for Digital Public Infrastructure Freq.Social Gobo.social Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! Outro music: Delirium Tremens by Protector ✌️When in doubt, PLUR .✌️ Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

March 28, 202535 min

Presenting Design

Mentioned What Was the TED Talk? from our super smart friend Jay Fienberg (who you should hire!) Topics Discussed Why don't designers learn how to present design? Do's and Don't for design presentations To Neg or Not to Neg? That is the question. The exhausting reality of "performing" Pull Quotes "Amateur hour is when someone spends all their bullets in the first minute... You got to keep some in reserve." –Joe "If you act like you've done this so many times that you know what the problem is and you are bored by the details, you have convinced someone already that you can solve it." –Joe "People gather artifacts and data when they don't trust themselves to actually have the answer." –Joe "I continue to believe that we have the hardest job out of anyone in technology because we have to balance so many different things." –Brian "It's the job." –Brian Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts! Outro music: How To Get Your Ass Kicked by Sparks Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

March 21, 202529 min

The Burn Book

Burn Victims • FAANG as a validator • FAANG's lack of innovation • Armchair Logo Art Direction • Amateur hour in the design space • MAU/DAU is a broken concept • Uber is the ultimate example of enshittification • An attempt to not look at my phone •"Chimping" • Text messaging needs a reinvent • What's App is terrible • " Founder Mode " • Alegria Art is an abomination Pull Quotes "I've seen incredibly talented people passed on because they don't have a FAANG background." "If tomorrow they found out burning kittens in a barrel would make their stock price go up four points, they would do it so fucking fast ." "I think you can make something extremely valuable, that you don't touch a lot." "Uber has made the world worse in every conceivable way" "Can you stand still and look around for 10 minutes? I bet you can't." "Founder Mode is just a new term for micromanagement" "Teaching is thing the that taught me how to be a better leader." Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us! Outro music: Rumors by Lizzo (ft. Cardi B) Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

March 14, 202543 min

Risk

Mentioned Mythic Quest episode: Dark Quiet Death The pram in the hall Tim Van Damme XOXO Festival Crazy Boat! Topics Discussed The delicate balance between following established patterns and advocating for innovative design solutions How life circumstances (family obligations, debt, financial security) fundamentally change our relationship with risk The consulting advantage: why outside perspectives have more freedom to propose radical ideas The shifting landscape of design opportunities from the mobile revolution to today's uncertain AI frontier Why designers often self-censor their most authentic work out of fear or practicality Pull Quotes "Every big moment in my career was when I took one of those big swings." "My job is to represent the user...even if it puts me at odds with my team." "Every single good piece of work comes from a genesis of a personal experience." "Risk is a clarification of one's priority list." "I would never do anything to risk my family or my children...nothing would be worth it." Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us! Outro music: Play At Your Own Risk (12" Version) by Planet Patrol Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

March 8, 202550 min

The Future of Design with Dave Miller

In this episode, Brian and Joe welcome back Dave Miller from Design Citizen to discuss the evolving landscape of design as a profession and what the future designer might look like. Dave shares insights from his recent LinkedIn article exploring design from 2025 through 2040, discussing how AI and accessible tools are transforming creative capabilities and what skills tomorrow's designers will need to thrive in an increasingly competitive market. Mentioned What’s Next for Design? Predictions for 2025 to 2040 - Dave's article on how design will evolve over the next 15 years as AI transforms the field. How are we doing out there? (Designer&Designer Episode 30) - Previous episode with Dave Design Citizen - Dave's company website where you can learn about his coaching services r/pressurewashingporn - Ooooh yeah! Topics Discussed Dave's recent LinkedIn article about the future of design that "blew up" The shift from specialist designers to "Omni designers" who can do a bit of everything How AI and accessible tools are breaking down barriers to creativity The changing economic landscape for designers and the job market The value of design education in today's world The challenges of cross-disciplinary collaboration between design, engineering, and product How design can become a key differentiator in a world of sameness The future of design leadership and who will be in charge of creative vision Pull Quotes "Everything's changed. I think everything's gonna change every year apparently." - Dave Miller "I found myself all of a sudden seeing that I was exploring adjacent areas of what I'm technically qualified to do and not doing a bad job at it." - Dave Miller "The hottest thing in the market right now is essentially the player coach. It's the adult in the room that could manage... but they are particularly skilled in the craft." - Dave Miller About Dave Dave Miller is the founder of Design Citizen , a recruiting and coaching firm dedicated to helping designers thrive. With over 20 years of experience in the creative industry, he draws on the insights and trends he uncovers through conversations with the remarkable people and companies he collaborates with. For more of Dave’s perspectives on the ever-evolving world of design, follow him here on LinkedIn. Connect with Joe & Brian Website: designer.fm Email: designer@designer.fm Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us! Outro music: Pressure Washer vs Techno by @Klangphonics Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

February 28, 202542 min

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

The Dunning-Kruger Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect The Continuity Girl https://womensfilmandtelevisionhistory.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/continuity-girl/ Joe's Latest Web Comic, The Custodian https://goodwork.is/TheCustodian/ Design is Storytelling, by Ellen Lupton https://www.cooperhewitt.org/publications/design-is-storytelling/ "Everyone thinks they have a sense of humor and good taste, but we can't all have good taste" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW8zvaTRuGo Medieval Guilds https://www.thoughtco.com/medieval-guilds-4147821 Outro Song Et moi et moi et moi - Jacques Dutronc Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm

February 21, 202534 min

What Will Product Design Look Like In A Year?

"Meta’s Terrible AI Profiles Are Going Viral": https://lifehacker.com/tech/instagram-has-official-ai-accounts-and-they-are-weird AI2: https://allenai.org/ The Singularity Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/ Charles Baudelaire on Photography: https://www.csus.edu/indiv/o/obriene/art109/readings/11%20baudelaire%20photography.htm Klout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klout A Gentleman in Moscow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gentleman_in_Moscow Sam Altman's Popped Collars https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/sam-altman-sama Outro Song Time Hard - The Pioneers Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us at designer@designer.fm