Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Transforming Culture, Developing People, and Getting Results

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Chain of Learning® is the leadership podcast for leaders and change practitioners who believe that people, not tools, are the foundation of lasting results. If you're working to transform your organization's culture, develop leaders at every level, and build teams that are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems and innovate, this podcast is for you. Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders break free from the Doer Trap™, and create the conditions in their organization for success and build a vibrant culture where impact is exponential. Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you: - Develop leaders at scale, not just one at a time - Build high-performing cultures of continuous learning, grounded in psychological safety, trust, and empowerment, that thrive and grow - Lead culture transformation and change leadership with intention - Strengthen coaching culture, problem-solving, and leadership development across your organization - Move from managers who focus on outcomes to leaders who develop people, improve performance, and get results Grounded in human-centered leadership and adult learning practices, and informed by principles of the Toyota Way, Lean thinking, and operational excellence, Chain of Learning features conversations with influential thinkers and leaders shaping the future of leadership at scale and organizational learning. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Rich Sheridan, Barry O'Reilly, Steve Spear, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp. Subscribe and follow Chain of Learning® to deepen your impact. Share this podcast with your colleagues, fellow change leaders, and friends so we can strengthen our Chain of Learning together. Join the conversation: ChainOfLearning.com Katie Anderson’s website: KBJAnderson.com Connect with Katie: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Read Katie's Shingo Publication Award-winning book: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Download the KATALYST™ Change Leader Assessment: KBJAnderson.com/Katalyst Popular Episode Topics Include: Leadership Development, Developing Leaders at Scale, The Doer Trap, Coaching Culture, Building a Culture of Learning, Culture Transformation, Change Leadership, Leading Change, Change Readiness, Change Adoption, Stakeholder Engagement, Organizational Change, Lean Leadership, Lean Thinking, Operational Excellence, Toyota Way, Toyota Leadership, People-Centered Leadership, Psychological Safety, Building Trust, Leadership Coaching, Break the Telling Habit, Leader as Coach, Continuous Improvement, Kaizen, Organizational Learning, Problem-Solving Culture, Developing People, High-Performing Teams, Learning Organization, Executive Leadership, Strategic Alignment, Leading Without Authority, Influence, Leading Through Influence, Leadership Identity, Gemba Leadership, A3 Thinking, PDCA, Growth Mindset, Leader Development, Japan Leadership Experience, Learning to Lead Leading to Learn, Leadership Podcast

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August 19, 202657 min

82| Connect the Parts, Focus on People: Inside the Toyota Economic System [with Olivier Larue]

Profit or cash. Efficiency or flexibility. Speed, or doing it right. Leaders feel like they have to make trade-offs like these all the time. But the choice often isn't real. Some contradictions are unavoidable. Others only look that way until you understand the real problem. The most effective organizations realize they don't have to pick a side if they can resolve the underlying tension. Olivier Larue has spent three decades helping companies do this, which he's documented in his three-book series The Toyota Economic System : a philosophy about people and society, the technical design that turns it into results, and the management practices that keep it alive through continuous learning. The real breakthrough is never the tools, optimizing one part of the system, or making unnecessary tradeoffs. It's how every part connects, and understanding the real problem to solve, so people remain the focus and results last. You’ll Learn: How to tell a contradiction that's real from one that only looks real, so you stop choosing between things you can't afford to lose Why an economic lens, not an operational one, changes where you look for the answer Why the number and order of Toyota's seven wastes aren't arbitrary, and why the first one drives how you understand the rest Why declaring people "empowered" means nothing without the conditions that let them act on it How respect for people extends to avoiding layoffs even in downturns, and why that matters in a world of AI and supply chain disruptions ABOUT MY GUEST: Olivier Larue was trained by Toyota Motor Corporation and has spent thirty years helping Fortune 500 companies design and implement industrial manufacturing solutions, including more than a decade as a consultant with TSSC, the Toyota Production System Support Center, and hands-on work in the biopharmaceutical industry. He is the founder and president of Ydatum, and the author of the three-book series The Toyota Economic System . IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/82 Connect with Olivier Larue: linkedin.com/in/olivierlarue Purchase a copy of The Toyota Economic System (three-book series): https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Economic-System-Environmental-Stewardship Learn more about Ydatum: ydatum.com Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:43 How a NUMMI experience shaped Olivier years later 05:14 Why call it the Toyota Economic System? 09:42 Profit vs. cash: the trade-off companies get wrong 12:32 Why Just-in-Time doesn’t mean zero inventory 16:30 What happens when company values and work conflict 20:20 Why leaders have to “earn” how they manage 21:42 Why Toyota’s seven wastes are in a specific order 23:38 The hidden cost of human waiting 27:20 Why leadership skills alone aren’t enough 30:05 Why organizations keep repeating the same problems 31:26 What Andon actually means for empowerment 35:17 The leadership response that makes problems safe to surface 39:16 Why Toyota can avoid layoffs during downturns 44:30 The unanswered question about AI and economic growth 48:30 How enthusiasm turns pull into push 50:44 Why isolated improvements don’t transform systems 54:35 Refusing the either/or trade-off Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

August 5, 202638 min

81| Adapt How You Lead: Situational Leadership in Practice [with Suzie Bishop]

Your leadership style isn't the problem. Your default is. The gap between how you're leading and what the person in front of you actually needs is one of the most common and most invisible places leaders get stuck. Most of us default to one mode and don't notice the mismatch until something breaks down. Suzie Bishop has spent over a decade at the Center for Leadership Studies helping leaders close that gap and strengthen their leadership effectiveness. Her new book, Situational Leadership , puts nearly sixty years of research into a practical framework for reading the situation, building leadership flexibility, and adapting your approach. Suzie walks through the four leadership styles, how to read what someone needs in a given situation, and how to adapt your approach to coach, develop leaders, and lead through influence. The best leaders don't pick one style and commit. They pause, assess the situation, and flex to have the impact you intend. You’ll Learn: Why "leadership is influence" reframes how you lead, and why influence has nothing to do with manipulation or control How to diagnose what someone needs, and why one person can require four different approaches in the same conversation How leadership flexibility and adaptability differ—and why knowing the styles isn't the same as knowing when to use them Why only asking coaching questions can leave people stuck, and how to know when to step in with more directive leadership How the "power of the pause" helps you move from reacting out of habit to adapting with intention ABOUT MY GUEST: Suzie Bishop is VP of Product Development at The Center for Leadership Studies. She's a Certified Professional in Training Management, a Stakeholder Centered Coach, and a Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coach. Suzie is co-author of Situational Leadership: The Model for Leading Others, Navigating Change and Unlocking Performance and is currently writing her next book, Match: How to Meet Leaders Where They Are , with Marshall Goldsmith. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/81 Connect with Suzie Bishop: linkedin.com/in/suzie-bishop Purchase a copy: Situational Leadership: The Model for Leading Others, Navigating Change and Unlocking Performance by Suzie Bishop and Sam Shriver Match: How to Meet Leaders Where They Are by Suzie Bishop and Marshall Goldsmith (November 2026) Learn more about The Center for Leadership Studies: situational.com Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:52 Why leadership is influence, not control 04:43 Creating the conditions without controlling 06:51 What Situational Leadership looks like in practice 07:35 Flexibility vs. adaptability: the critical difference 07:48 The four Situational Leadership styles 11:41 How to recognize your natural leadership tendency 13:08 When asking questions isn’t effective coaching 16:46 How to be directive without taking away ownership 17:37 The cost of not adapting how you lead 21:37 Why organizations need a common leadership language 24:05 Creating the conditions for people to ask for help 25:24 The leadership challenge even top executives struggle with 29:06 How to give direction without taking over 30:33 Influence versus control when you have authority 31:06 Three types of power that shape your influence 32:51 Why trust is your most important source of power 36:02 The difference between flexibility and adaptability 37:08 Practice an intention pause before you respond Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

July 22, 202644 min

80| Bad News First: How a Leader's Response Builds a Culture of Learning [with Isao Yoshino]

How many problems are actually visible in your organization? Research shows senior leaders see just 4%. The other 96% stay hidden — invisible, yet still there. And some aren't even recognized by employees as problems anymore, because they have become the norm. We all say we want psychological safety. But you don't get it by saying you want it. People-centered leadership is about creating conditions for people to speak up and highlight issues by how you, and leaders across your system, respond. Recorded live with a group of global leaders participating in my Japan Leadership Experience in May 2026, this special episode celebrates the sixth anniversary of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. You'll hear Isao Yoshino, a 40-year Toyota leader and the subject of my book, reflect on three of the book's most talked-about stories. These examples bring two of Toyota's mottos to life, "bad news first" and "no problem is a problem," and show why a leader's response is what turns problems into a culture of improvement: How his manager's response to a huge paint-shop mistake in his first months at Toyota shaped how he saw a leader's role How andon — signaling a problem and stopping the line — changed the culture at NUMMI How he found the courage to highlight his failing water ski boat business to President Fujio Cho Whether on the front line or in the boardroom, creating the conditions where bad news comes first, and support follows, is what builds a culture of excellence. You’ll Learn: Why a leader's response to a mistake is fundamental to effective leadership and matters more than the mistake itself The two actions behind a bad-news-first culture: respond down to help, not blame, and signal up when something's off course Why andon is a leadership practice, not just a factory signal, that works from the shop floor to the executive suite What the NUMMI turnaround shows about culture change: people adopt a better way when they discover it, not when they're told Why "thank you for this mistake" is the keystone move for building psychological safety ABOUT MY GUEST: Isao Yoshino spent forty years at Toyota, from the late 1960s to the early 2000s, where he helped shape the people-centered learning culture the company is known for today. He was a key leader in the Kan-Pro senior-management development program and led the training of the American managers at NUMMI, the Toyota-GM joint venture, where he hired John Shook. He is the subject of Katie Anderson's Shingo Publication Award-winning book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/80 Order your copy of Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn: LearningToLeadLeadingToLearn.com Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:18 Andon: Why a leader's response matters 03:16 The paint mistake that shaped Mr. Yoshino's leadership 05:28 Why Mr. Yoshino was thanked for his mistake 09:34 The leadership lesson that lasted 40 years 11:22 Why Toyota starts every leader on the front line 12:18 Inside the early days of NUMMI 17:13 Why workers were afraid to stop the line 23:34 What changed the culture at NUMMI 24:40 Why leaders only see 4% of problems 25:16 Responding down instead of blaming 25:50 Asking for help at the leadership level 28:43 Why President Cho flew to a failing business 34:17 The power of bad news first 35:54 Mr. Yoshino's biggest leadership regret 38:19 When doing it yourself becomes the problem 39:05 The response that creates culture 40:28 The two behaviors every leader needs 42:02 Two questions to reflect on this week Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

July 8, 202656 min

79| Build Powerful People: Why Transformation Starts with Your Own [with Gary Peterson]

Efficiency and cost savings aren't what makes operational excellence last. People are. The leaders who create enduring, high-performing organizations are after something beyond business results. They want a company where people end the day more capable, more confident, more energized than when it began. That's the difference between a workplace that wears people down and one that builds powerful people. Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years building that kind of culture of continuous improvement at OC Tanner. But the hardest part wasn't creating the systems or processes to get better outcomes. It was his own transformation — coming to see how, without meaning to, he'd become the leader getting in his people's way. Put people first, and the results follow. And the deepest transformation you'll ever lead is your own. You’ll Learn: Why operational excellence only lasts when leaders focus on building people, not just cutting costs and eliminating waste Why the best leaders make an identity shift from being the expert with every answer to creating the conditions for others to solve problems What it takes to move managers from enforcers to coaches and make continuous improvement something your team never fears, even as roles and headcount shift How to influence real organizational change when you have no authority to make anyone follow Why so many leaders give up on culture change too soon, and how long it really takes ABOUT MY GUEST: Gary Peterson spent more than 30 years at OC Tanner, where he held leadership roles across manufacturing, marketing, and operations, most recently as Executive Vice President of Supply Chain and Manufacturing. He led the people-first transformation that earned OC Tanner the Shingo Prize and made it one of the few companies Toyota holds up as a global showcase for its system outside automotive. Gary is an Association for Manufacturing Excellence Hall of Fame inductee. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/79 Connect with Gary Peterson: linkedin.com/in/garypeterson Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join me on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:44 Why Toyota saw something different at OC Tanner 05:02 The real purpose of operational excellence 07:19 How Gary knew the culture was changing 09:00 Creating people who change the world 12:13 The outcome every leader should want 13:07 Two pillars that shaped the journey 14:26 Breaking a culture of fear and control 15:35 The five-minute habit that changed everything 17:15 Redefining what it means to be a manager 19:12 Why transformation takes longer than you think 20:05 What to do when leaders don't support the change 22:26 The experiment that almost got shut down 24:19 Helping managers make the coaching shift 25:23 When people outgrow their leaders 28:28 Why improvement should never threaten jobs 30:23 The manager who couldn't stop yelling 32:23 The leadership habit that destroys ownership 35:35 Becoming the leader you never wanted to be 37:00 The habit that was holding people back 38:01 The executive behavior that shuts people down 40:07 Proving your worth vs. creating conditions 45:37 Showing results isn't the same as showing people 49:53 Where transformation really begins 51:16 The question every leader should ask about their people 53:34 When helping starts limiting growth 55:14 The shift that made everything else possible Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

June 24, 202640 min

78| Strategy Isn't Enough: 9 Practices to Help Your Team Meet the Moment [with Karina Mangu-Ward]

Have you poured months into a strategy your team couldn't bring to life? Or watched capable people work harder than ever, and still struggle to pull together as a team? High performance isn't about a better strategy, more talent, or longer hours. It's about how your team works together, every single day. Karina Mangu-Ward, author of Teams That Meet the Moment , has spent more than a decade helping complex organizations redesign the messy day-to-day of how people actually get things done together. Her belief: good everyday teaming habits are both good for people and good for results. You don't have to choose between them. Making this real doesn't require a reinvention. You just need the right structure and the intention to show up differently. In this episode, Karina shares simple, tangible practices you can use in your very next meeting or strategic project. You’ll Learn: The three lies leaders tell themselves about teamwork, and why believing them holds your team back How the framework of the "Even Over" ends the swirl when your team is stuck choosing between two competing options Why creating a "Safe to Try" process gets a team unstuck when you're chasing consensus and certainty What a steady team cadence unlocks when everything around you feels like an emergency The instinct nearly every high performer has to unlearn before they can build a team that thrives ABOUT MY GUEST: Karina Mangu-Ward is a partner at August Public, an organizational change consultancy that helps large, complex organizations build more human-centered ways of working, whose clients include PepsiCo, Planned Parenthood, and Sundance. She's the author of Teams That Meet the Moment: 9 Practices for Unlocking Performance and Growth in Uncertain Times . Karina's passion is helping groups navigate complexity, gain insight, and unlock highly complex challenges. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/78 Connect with Karina: linkedin.com/in/karina-mangu-ward Purchase a copy of Karina's book: Teams That Meet the Moment Learn more about Karina’s company: aug.co Take the Team assessment: assessment.aug.co Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:01 Why great strategy still fails 04:13 The hustle culture myth that's burning teams out 05:20 Everyday habits drive extraordinary teams 07:11 Meeting the moment in uncertain times 09:13 The "Safe to Try" mindset that breaks gridlock 11:18 Setting guardrails without limiting innovation 12:06 Why small bets outperform big risks 13:29 Unlearning the need to have the answer 15:17 Why sticky practices beat complicated frameworks 17:16 Simple retrospectives that strengthen learning 20:19 The surprising cost of treating everything like an emergency 22:09 Using "Even Over" to make better trade-offs 25:28 Intention over reaction in decision-making 30:3 2 When perfection becomes procrastination 31:53 Why working in public accelerates learning 34:22 The power of stories over instruction 37:08 Intention + practice = better leadership 39:14 What trade-off do you need to make? Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

June 10, 202653 min

77| Lead with Joy: A Business Strategy for Success [with Rich Sheridan]

Joy isn't a perk. It's a business strategy. Have you ever wondered whether work has to feel this hard? Whether the team you've built can actually function without you? Whether there's a way to lead that doesn't burn you — or your people — out? Rich Sheridan built Menlo Innovations around one bold idea: ending human suffering in the workplace. The result is a company where joy isn't a slogan. It's how things actually get done. It's a place built on collaboration, human energy, and pride in what people create together. Joy isn't constant happiness. It's the long arc of meaning and contribution alongside people who care. And it becomes possible the moment you stop being the center of every problem and start creating the conditions for ownership, continuous learning, and yes, joy. You don't have to change the world. You just have to change your world. You’ll Learn: The mistake most leaders make about mistakes, and why more mistakes can get you ahead faster Why what looks like a questionable decision from below makes sense from above The difference between joy and happiness, and why most leaders are chasing the wrong thing Why running a small experiment will move you further than creating the perfect plan What it really takes to build a company designed to last a hundred years ABOUT MY GUEST: Rich Sheridan is the co-founder, CEO, and Chief Storyteller of Menlo Innovations, a software development and consulting firm known for its people-centered culture and focus on joy in the workplace. He is the author of Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy Officer and was inducted into the Shingo Academy in 2022 for his contributions to organizational excellence. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/77 Connect with Rich Sheridan: linkedin.com/in/menloprez Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of Rich's books: Joy, Inc. and Chief Joy Officer Learn more about Menlo Innovations: menloinnovations.com Tugboat Institute: tugboatinstitute.com TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:37 When work no longer feels sustainable 05:26 The moment Rich realized the problem wasn't technology 07:27 What an 8-year-old noticed about leadership 08:23 Why hero-based organizations scale through exhaustion 09:39 When caring becomes carrying 12:21 The codependency leaders develop with crises 14:09 What joy at work actually means 17:13 Working with pride and delighting customers 19:17 Why human energy is a leadership responsibility 21:00 What's the cost of not having joy? 23:28 From constant firefighting to two emergencies in 25 years 25:24 Joy vs. happiness: What's the difference? 27:02 Why joy isn't happiness every day 32:17 The phrase that keeps Menlo moving forward 34:15 The leadership lesson Rich learned from flying 40:39 Why Menlo isn't chasing exponential growth 43:02 The book that changed Rich's career 45:18 Why crisis practices work when there isn't a crisis 47:28 Why your system keeps producing the same results 49:38 The shift from carrying to creating conditions for change leadership 51:46 Why stepping in can hold people back Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

May 27, 202628 min

76 | What Is the Purpose of Kaizen? John Shook Answers Your Questions (Part 3 of 3)

What does it really take to sustain a culture of continuous improvement – through pressure for results, across generations, and into an era of AI? In this final episode of my three-part series with John Shook, one of the most influential leaders and thinkers in the global lean community, we turned to the questions on your mind. Before we sat down to record, I asked listeners to submit your questions. We cover four of them specifically here, though many others were addressed in Parts 1 and 2, and together they highlight the tensions change leaders and executives face every day. At the end, as we promised in Part 2, John shares his parting reflections and advice for all of us leading transformation to create people-centered learning cultures. It’s not just what we should stop doing, it’s what we need to continue. Starting with ourselves. If you haven't listened to episodes 74 and 75 yet, start there first as you won’t want to miss hearing this conversation in full. You'll Learn: Why leaders should be patient for results but impatient for action Why getting to the assumptions that underlie your principles and values is where the real work of culture change begins How aligning around the real problem to solve helps close the gap across generations and perspectives What the original intention of jidoka — separating machine work from human work — can teach us about navigating AI and keeping technology in service of people The real purpose of kaizen and continuous improvement ABOUT MY GUEST: John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn , and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn . As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/76 Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: https://kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead/ TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 02:28 [Listener Question] How do you balance patience with action? 04:06 Avoiding solution jumping and analysis paralysis 05:20 [Listener Question] What will matter most for the next generation of organizations? 07:21 Why underlying assumptions matter more than artifacts 08:28 The deeper level of hansei and reflection 08:53 [Listener Question] How do you bridge generations without slowing improvement? 10:43 Quick PDCA vs. long-cycle learning 11:23 Aligning people around shared purpose 13:56 [Listener Question] In our age of AI, how do we stay true to jidoka's original intent, separating machine work from human work? 14:12 AI, jidoka, and protecting human work 15:23 Four questions to navigate uncertainty 16:17 Why respect for people still matters in AI 17:15 Jidoka beyond “automation with a human touch” 18:54 Curiosity, experiments, and learning with AI 19:30 The promise and risk of AI thinking for us 22:08 PDCA beyond engineering and problem solving 25:39 The purpose of kaizen is to do more kaizen 26:18 Creating conditions for people to think and grow 27:00 Shifting from leading change to creating conditions Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

May 20, 202647 min

75 | The Human Side of Lean: John Shook on Building Systems That Last (Part 2 of 3)

Lean has always been about people. We just kept reaching for the tools, without understanding the human purpose behind them. In part two of my three-part conversation with John Shook, we go behind the scenes of Toyota's culture and leadership — sharing stories of the system-building leaders who actually made it what it is, and exploring what it really means to lead people-centered change. John shares behind-the-scenes reflections from his time inside Toyota that you might not have heard before. Drawing on his direct experience in the company and our shared experiences living and working in Japan and globally, we explore a critical feature that is often missed: lean has always been a socio-technical system. The tools only work when we understand the deeper human purpose behind them. In this episode, we talk about the people who actually built Toyota's culture, what John learned from his two very different bosses — including Isao Yoshino, the subject of my book “ Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn” — and what happens when we lose sight of the human purpose inside the tools we practice every day. In the previous episode, John offered a powerful reframe on lean's impact — and what question we should really be asking as change leaders. If you haven't listened to episode 74 yet, hit pause and start there first — then come back to this one to pick up where we left off. You'll Learn: Inside stories of how Toyota's culture was built and the system builders behind it What John learned from his very different bosses inside Toyota and how their styles shaped his own leadership Whether you are a lean “mechanic” or “social worker” and what your answer reveals about your leadership Why every lean tool is already socio-technical — kanban, standardized work, A3, andon — and what we lost when we introduced them as primarily technical The concept of motainai — waste as a moral failure, not just a technical one — and why this matters for how you lead ABOUT MY GUEST: John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn , and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn . As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/75 Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Purchase a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:04 Why changing culture is harder than copying systems 04:05 John’s question that still drives him: Why Toyota? 05:10 How John found his way into Toyota and NUMMI 06:15 Why Toyota endured while other Japanese companies faded 07:10 Short-term leaders vs. long-term system builders 08:15 The crisis that shaped Toyota’s future direction 10:05 John’s experience learning from very different Toyota leaders 11:15 Why conflicting feedback accelerated John’s learning 12:10 Bringing your own thinking into the A3 process 13:15 Different cultures inside Toyota and how they shaped leadership 14:10 Mr. Cho’s powerful way of teaching through stories 16:10 Katie’s lion story and breaking the telling habit 17:15 Adapting your leadership approach to the situation 19:15 Reading both the technical and social sides of change 20:20 TPS as a way to expose weaknesses and accelerate growth 21:45 Are you a lean mechanic or a lean social worker? 22:50 Identifying your leadership bias and growth edge 24:05 Why process improvement and OD teams should work together 27:10 Scientific thinking, humanism, and ethics in Toyota leadership 28:55 Eliminating waste as more than a technical exercise 30:05 Mottainai and the deeper meaning of waste 32:25 Why lean tools were always socio-technical 33:40 Kanban, standardized work, and the human side of lean 35:10 The A3 as more than a problem-solving tool 37:35 The most common failure mode in lean transformations 38:30 When lean becomes the goal instead of the means 39:30 Why lean isn’t just for executives 40:35 Improving work at every level of the organization 41:40 Why empowerment without support falls apart 42:20 The Andon system as a model for real support 43:45 Where do you need to grow: technical or human? Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

May 13, 202637 min

74 | What Problem Are We Solving? John Shook Reflects: Has Lean Failed? (Part 1 of 3)

Has lean really failed? That question sparked one of the most listened-to conversations in the history of this podcast — my two-part series with Jim Womack in episodes 37 and 38. When I sat down with John Shook — one of the most influential thought leaders and practitioners in the global lean and continuous improvement community — we explored a different angle. John's perspective isn't a rebuttal. It's a reframe. A counterpoint to the question itself. John asks: what problem are we really trying to solve? His answer unfolds across three episodes — the first ever three-part series on Chain of Learning. And I think it will change how you think about your own impact as a change leader. You’ll Learn: Why the question "how many lean enterprises have we created?" may be leading us in the wrong direction — and what we should ask instead The difference between "command and control" and what John calls "command and abandon" — and which one you're more likely doing Why the key question in problem-solving is not "is this accurate?" but "is this useful?" How to recognize your span of influence and build systems at the right level that help people think, learn, and take ownership Why purpose → work → capability is the right sequence — and why most leaders start in the wrong place ABOUT MY GUEST: John Shook spent eleven years with Toyota in Japan and the U.S., where he helped transfer the Toyota Production System globally. He later served as President of the Lean Enterprise Institute and Chairman of the Lean Global Network. John is the co-author of the award-winning books Learning to See and Managing to Learn , and wrote the foreword to my book Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn . As an industrial anthropologist, he brings a perspective that connects culture, systems, and practice to bridge deep thinking with real-world application. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/74 Connect with John Shook: lean.org/about-lei/senior-advisors-staff/john-shook/ Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com Join us on the Japan Leadership Experience: KBJAnderson.com/japantrip Grab a copy of, “Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn,”: kbjanderson.com/learning-to-lead TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:00 Why John Shook believes we may be asking the wrong question about lean 05:25 Why change leadership always starts with changing yourself 06:40 The tension between influencing others and trying to control them 08:15 What a people-centered learning culture actually looks like in practice 09:05 Why John avoids lean jargon and starts with the problem instead 10:00 The Toyota question that shaped John’s thinking: “What problem are you trying to solve?” 11:15 Why learning only matters when it’s grounded in the work 12:30 Toyota’s “attitude toward learning” and why it changes everything 15:05 Why leaders must create the environment for learning and problem-solving 16:00 How organizations drift into “big company disease” 17:05 Why purpose → work → capability is the sequence most leaders miss 18:15 The risk of starting culture change with leadership behaviors alone 19:20 Why focusing on the work reveals what’s really blocking change 21:00 Why John sees more “command and abandon” than command and control 23:20 Focusing on your span of influence instead of waiting for senior leaders 27:15 How every person at work already has “problem consciousness” 29:00 The surprising truth about who is most frustrated in organizations 32:15 Building systems at your level that create ownership and capability 33:20 Why modeling the behavior matters more than pushing harder 36:15 Why sustainable change starts with how you show up each day Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/

April 29, 202646 min

73 | Small Steps, Leading with Heart: How Transformation Sustains [with Richard Koch]

The way you’re leading transformation might be getting in the way of the culture you’re trying to build. As change leaders and practitioners, we care about results. But in that focus, it’s easy to stay on the outer work—processes, metrics, systems—and underestimate the inner work – our mindset, behaviors, and relationships – that actually moves people. Our passion can unintentionally pull us away from creating the conditions for learning, alignment, and growth, and taking ownership back by stepping in to do, to solve, and to own the work. To explore this, I’m joined by Richard Koch, who has spent 25+ years leading change inside large, complex global organizations—from frontline improvement to system-level transformation. We’re connected by a shared belief: sustainable transformation doesn’t come from pushing harder. It comes from creating the conditions for people to be successful. In this conversation, Richard shares what he’s learned from being inside that tension including why the way many organizations deploy improvement teams can unintentionally prevent the problem-solving ownership they’re trying to build. You’ll Learn: Why daily work and small steps are where long-term change is actually built How separating leadership development and continuous improvement creates confusion—and weakens ownership Where improvement teams unintentionally take over the work and limit capability growth What it looks like to support leaders in owning change without stepping in to solve it Why the leader must be at the center of transformation—and what changes when that responsibility is held ABOUT MY GUEST: Richard H. Koch is Managing Director of Serofia and works with leaders who want to create meaningful progress for people, performance, and the future they are helping to shape. Drawing on more than 25 years of international experience across strategy, leadership, operational excellence, innovation, and transformation, he brings together coaching, training, and consulting in a way that is both human and practical. His approach is grounded in systems thinking, deep listening, and helping leaders turn strategic ambition into real progress through small steps and real work. IMPORTANT LINKS: Full episode show notes: ChainOfLearning.com/73 Connect with Richard Koch: linkedin.com/in/richardkoch88 Learn more about Serofia: serofia.com Follow me on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson Subscribe to my newsletter: kbjanderson.com/newsletter Check out my website for resources and working together: KBJAnderson.com TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE: 03:44 Importance of seeing potential in every person 06:10 How seemingly insignificant actions ripple through teams 08:37 Why separating leadership and improvement work breaks progress 09:14 The Inner System vs. Outer System framework and how it drives change 12:19 The negative effect with silos that keeps you away from focusing on the work and the leader 15:14 Why forcing change undermines ownership 17:32 The mindset shift for change leaders and internal consultants 19:07 Why daily work is the path to long-term transformation 21:22 When improvement work splits into process and leadership, change stops sticking 23:19 Why direct observation and connection matter 25:23 Challenge of relying on experts to help solve problems 28:27 How to build sustainability instead of dependency 29:05 Navigating trust, timing, and influence with senior leaders 32:25 Leading with empathy and understanding the pressure leaders are under 33:52 Value of having the right outside partner to achieve goals 35:50 Seeing a leader move from sponsor to truly owning and enabling change 39:36 Importance of staying curious and creating space for ideas and growth 41:00 Taking small steps to make big changes 43:00 The essence of small steps, belief in people, and leading with heart to create the conditions for change Learn more and apply for the November 2026 cohort of my Japan Leadership Experience : https://kbjanderson.com/japantrip/