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#AmWriting is a podcast and Groupstack hosted by KJ Dell’Antonia, Jess Lahey, Sarina Bowen, & Jennie Nash. Listen, read and join up for hard-won advice and inspiration to help you play big in your writing life and finish work that matters. amwriting.substack.com

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June 12, 2026Episode 50820 min

Reframing Success: A New Take on Self-Worth for Writers

On the #amwriting podcast’s “Margin Notes,” Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill (author of Wise Effort) about how the urge to prove yourself—through resumes, accolades, or “pre-order my book” pleas—undermines authenticity and connection, especially when pitching ideas, proposals, or personal brands. Hill describes confronting this while rebranding her website and shifting from listing credentials to articulating the real user experience and who the work is and isn’t for, using specific language that reflects her core value of awareness/attunement rather than generic, AI-like claims. They unpack the psychology behind proving (seeking safety, belonging, and autonomy) and suggest asking which need is driving the behavior, aiming instead to demonstrate value, embrace vulnerability, and rely on trusted “tough love” feedback.Books Mentioned* Wise Effort by Dr. Diana HillJoin the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you’ll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you’re writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe’re offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:* The full text of The Blueprint* Fourteen video lessons covering every step of the framework* Real coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projects* Practical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you’re beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19👉 Enroll in the Fiction Blueprint Challenge👉 Enroll in the Memoir Blueprint Challenge👉 Enroll in the Nonfiction Blueprint ChallengeJoin the Live Coaching SessionsPaid podcast subscribers will also receive access to six weeks of live coaching sessions featuring me and a variety of Author Accelerator coaches.Each session will focus on a specific Blueprint step and the challenges writers commonly encounter while developing, drafting, or revising their books. You’ll have opportunities to ask questions, learn from expert coaches, and watch hot-seat coaching sessions where writers will receive direct feedback on their work.Some sessions will be led by me, while others will feature experienced Author Accelerator coaches with expertise across genres and stages of the writing process. We’ll hold these sessions at different times to accommodate different schedules, but we know for sure that Jennie will be doing coaching each Monday at 3:00 PST. The first one will be July 13. Other sessions will be slotted in soon.Whether you’re starting a new project, trying to get unstuck, or preparing for revision, these live sessions will help you apply the Blueprint to your own book and make meaningful progress throughout the summer.Become a paid subscriber for $12/monthWin a Blueprint RevisionEveryone who enrolls in the Blueprint Course will be entered to win a personal Blueprint coaching session with me and be featured on the podcast.We’ll award one winner for every 100 course enrollments, so the more writers who join the Challenge, the more opportunities there are to win this Grand PrizeReady for More Support?As you progress, you’ll also have the opportunity to connect with a trained Blueprint coach for personalized guidance, feedback, and accountability. We are rolling out a new coach matching system that will give you an easy and intuitive way to find the coaches who are a great fit for your and your project.There is no charge for this service and no obligation to work with the coaches we match you with – but what a great chance to connect with people who could help you write your best book!Whether you need help clarifying your vision, solving a structural problem, or creating a plan for finishing your manuscript, a coach can help you take the next step.Join us on July 10 and spend six weeks making your book stronger.Learn All About the Summer ChallengeOn July 6th at 3:00 PST, Jennie will be hosting a live AMA to talk about the Blueprint and the summer challenge, and answer all your questions. We’ll send out an email reminder about this event.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie Nash: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.Hey, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about big decisions writers face in their work and their creative lives.And I’m here today again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and I am recording this while sitting on the floor of my grandchild’s nursery. I’ve got my microphone on a box of diapers, and I’m making it work ‘cause that’s what we do. We just make it work. And today, Diana and I wanna talk about this idea of feeling like you need to prove yourself and how that undermines everything, your power and your point.[00:01:00]And the reason that we wanted to talk about this is, well, it was triggered by something that Diana was going through, but I... resonated so much with me as well. I feel like this happens to me all the time, feeling like I need to prove myself, and I see it happening in my clients all the time, particularly when they’re trying to pin their idea down, or they’re trying to work on a book proposal.They’re trying to pitch themselves to something in some way. This idea of having to just prove ourselves, puff ourselves up, um, look at all our accomplishments, all, all of those things. So Diana, do you wanna talk about what happened to you that, that triggered this idea of this conversation?Dr. Diana Hill: Well, I’m working on the...A website rebrand, which I think we all do now. It’s sort of like we have to update our kitchens every 10 years and our websites every five, right? So- Five years? ... I’m updating... Three. Two? How many years do you update your website? How often?Jennie Nash: Like every couple months.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, but I’m doing [00:02:00] a full rebrand. Like I’m not just repainting.I’m actually like, you know, doing a little remodel as well. So I’m going through that, the remodel process, and who I was five years ago is very different than who I am now. I’ve evolved as an author. I’ve had a num- number of books come out, and I’ve done the, the adding on little bits, so my website has been updated to include the books that I’ve been, that I’ve...But I’ve changed, and the question became in this, in putting out the, the rebrand is who, who am I gonna put out into the world? And there was this conflict happening where I kept on wanting to prove my academic achievements, prove that I have, that I’m worthy in some way for you to listen to me, and you were helping me on it, and you’re like, “No, this is- that’s actually de- it detracts from actually what you’re gonna guide people to get.”Like, what is, what is the offer? What are people gonna experience in, in reading your books or [00:03:00] working with you? And those are two very different presentations. One is the prove yourself presentation, and then one is actually what am I here for presentation, and you have to dig deeper into the what am I here for oneJennie Nash: That’s a great way of putting it.Yeah, and what I was seeing you do, I just recognize so often it’s almost just like, “Here’s my resume. Let me give you my resume.” Yeah And the accolades, and the honors, and people I’ve worked with, and the stages I’ve been on. And we think that that shorthand is going to convey to people what it’s like to, to work with us, or to read our work, or to be immersed in our ideas or our thoughts, and it...Nobody cares really, right? Like, at the end of the day, in a weird way, it, nobody cares.Dr. Diana Hill: The funny thing about our resume is that we all have things on our resume that we are really proud of because for some reason it was super impressive to us in our little niche thing at that particular time. That [00:04:00] you, when you actually put it out there, like you said, nobody cares.It’s not that impressive a- outside of the context of your personal experience. So keep your resume to yourself.Jennie Nash: You know?Dr. Diana Hill: Re- it’s a great, great reminder of all the things that you’ve accomplished, and been through, and the struggles that you’ve had, but the questioning, but the question for me is, okay, what is the user experience in, in coming to this work?And is the user experience one that is a- actually the experience that they’re gonna have with me when they work with me, or when they read my book, or when they... And that’s, that needs to be true. My resume actually is an, is an, a match for that, um, for that user experience.Jennie Nash: It’s so funny ‘cause while you’re talking about keep your resume for yourself, I’m remembering some times quite recently actually where I’ve had a big thing happen, and I’ve said to my family, actually to the daughter whose house I’m in right now, well, my grandchild’s mother, um, I said to her, “Oh, this really cool thing happened.”And then I found myself having to explain [00:05:00] it because she doesn’t understand my world, or the people, or what it means, or this other thing. And the more I started explaining it, just the s- the kinda sillier it felt. And I just sort of felt so diminished by trying to explain it to her. Like, “This matters.Let me tell you why it matters. Let me explain what it means,” and all the things. And she was just sort of looking at me like, “Okay, Mom.” Yeah. You know? Yeah.Dr. Diana Hill: AndJennie Nash: that’s a little bit what it feels like to try to prove yourself when- It... Yes ... paper, right?Dr. Diana Hill: Yes. It’s like the difference between a optometrist and ophthalmologist.You really don’t know the difference between optometrist and ophthalmologist until you have eye issues and you realize, oh, my gosh, one of them went to medical school and has a million years more expe- experience versus the other one that can just, you know, get your glass- glasses prescription for you.The resume matters in some ways. Your resume does matter, what you’ve done, the experiences and training, and things that, um, certifications and all those things. They do, they do matter i- in some ways. But there’s also a way that [00:06:00] you can just demonstrate it rather than having to prove it. And, and the proving yourself ends up not looking so great, and the demonstrating it- Feels better because then people are act- that’s going back to people are experiencing it.So if you’re having a conversation with a ophthalmologist versus optometrist, the optometrist has the medical degree, the ophthalmologist doesn’t, or maybe it’s the other way around. You will actually feel a- you’ll feel that difference in having a conversation with them about eyes, right, in terms of their training and background.The same can be true for your writing or whatever it is that you’re trying to prove.Jennie Nash: It’s almost like we’re talking about show, don’t tell- Yeah ... except with our online identities or our professional identities, how we’re putting ourself forward, that you can’t just tell somebody, “This is how great I am.This is all the great stuff I’ve done,” or, “This is how great it would be to, to read my work or work with me.” You, you have [00:07:00] to show. You have to own it. You have to embody it. Uh, so when you, you actually completely scrapped a version of your website that was, um... And I feel like this was a little bit my fault, and I’m sorry.‘Cause I was like, “I hate this. Get rid of it.” Um, and you’re very coachable in that way because you understand that that’s holding a mirror up, and you were like, “Yeah, I don’t like it one bit.” And you, so you did that thing that’s very brave, which is you just said, “Okay, it’s... I’m putting it aside. I’m starting fresh.”And, um- What... And then you loved the result. So can you talk about the different feeling of the one versus the other? What, what did it feel like to sit with the one you didn’t like? And then what did it feel like to sit with the one that you loved?Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah. So just to give listeners behind the scenes, what I’m working on is, some people call it a wire frame, which is the background of what you’re gonna say, the copy that you’re, that’s eventually gonna go on the website [00:08:00] with all the photos and the, you know, uh, design aspects of things, which I’m also working on in parallel to make sure it’s a show, don’t tell situation.Uh, but I think what I, what I had before was i- i- it, it had those resume qualities of trying to tell you about every single school that I’d been to and, um, every thing that I’ve done that’s, that’s impressive, and also a bit about my method as opposed to what it is now is really speaking directly to the person that’s coming and what they, the struggle that they’re in, and the experience that they’re gonna have with me.But it’s very, very specific in the, in the wording. It’s not these sort of... And this is where AI can sometimes throw us, um, sideways, is that AI can have these sort of words that applies. You, you had some comments [00:09:00] in there where you’re like, “This could apply to anybody. Isn’t that what everyone would say?”Uh, so for example, in, in, in the wording now, there, I had done, I had done all these, like what are my core values, which people list on their website a lot. And a, a bunch of the core values that were on there, you were like, “Doesn’t everybody have... Isn’t that everyone’s core...” Like, if you have a core value of kindness, who doesn’t have cor- k- kindness as a core value, right?And so I, you know, I, I have other words that are more... You said, “The one thing that really actually is you, Diana, is this word awareness, attunement to what is happening inside, around, and between us.” That’s a very, that’s a very Diana word, awareness, attunement, and this type of attunement that’s inside and around, in between, and that’s nothing that AI would generate.So not that AI is all bad. We can use AI to help us kind of fine-tune things, but there is a element of going inside and asking yourself, like, actually wh- What is true for you? Not what are you trying to prove, but actually what is true for you and what will be the true experience [00:10:00] of the people that, that work with you, whether...or read your work that matches that.Jennie Nash: This connects to what I see a lot of writers do when their books come out and they start posting on social media, “Pre-order my book.” It’s usually at the pre-order stage, right? “Pre-order my book. Pre-order my book. Please pre-order my book.” And, and it’s this- Mm ... sort of, um, uh, grabby, uh, way of talking about them and what they’ve done.And sometimes they’ll say something like, “I’ve been working on this for 10 years.” You know, like, like we care. We don’t care, in a way.Dr. Diana Hill: Right.Jennie Nash: What, what we need to talk about in those circumstances is w- who is this book for? What is the experience of this book going to be? What is your experience of this writer or this, if it’s a nonfiction writer like you, of this idea or these experiences they’re creating?What is that gonna be for the reader? To, to talking, to owning it, rather than saying, “Well, I [00:11:00] worked on it for 10 years, so you have to buy my book.” You know? Like, it’s kinda crazy. So can we... Can you help us understand what’s going on psychologically when, when we’re doing that, trying to prove ourselves?Dr. Diana Hill: Well, yeah. The, the psychology of proving ourselves. So in general, there’s three, there’s three main things that we’re, uh, sort of always trying to protect or always trying to, uh, maintain. We’re trying to maintain our safety, and these are evolutionarily, like, old reasons. We’re trying to maintain our, like, our physical safety.Am I safe in this world, right? We’re trying to maintain our belonging and our connection, which is related to our safety, but our belong conne- connection. Am I part of the group? And then we’re trying to maintain our autonomy. Do I have control? Or somebody else taking control from me. And so what the psychology of proving ourself is that it’s sort of tackling or t- attempting to tackle those three things, but actually doesn’t get you [00:12:00] those three things.So when we’re trying to prove ourself, we’re creating this sense of belonging because if I, if I prove to you that I’m worthy, then you’ll accept me, right? But actually, when you’re trying to prove yourself, it doesn’t look good to people. They, they, they’re off- off-put. It, it doesn’t feel authentic, it feels provey, right?You’re just listing all your accomplishments. We also, when we’re trying to prove ourself, we’re trying to maintain that safety in the sense that, if I prove myself, you can’t hurt me. You can’t... You know, your critiques won’t, won’t damage me. But that, that’s also not true as well. We actually will, um, because we’re...Sort of a weird thing, but if you’re trying to prove yourself and people accept you just by trying to prove yourself, then, then you also can feel like they’re not really accepting all of you, they’re not accepting the messy parts of you. And we actually feel a little bit safer when we show people our vulnerable, messy parts and people still like us, they still find us beautiful with the mess and the flaws, right?[00:13:00]And then the third part around, so we have safety, we have, um, belonging, and then the third aspect of maintaining autonomy and control. This is also, um, a bit of a paradox because the more that you’re trying to prove yourself, actually the less autonomy you have because you are now in the confines of, I can only present this, this, and this as the trying to gain approval, and I have less, um, variability or less ability to be diverse in my, in my presentation.So the, it actually narrows us, but there’s evolutionary reasons why we do it, and it’s all about trying to, you know, our own survival in some ways.Jennie Nash: Oh, that is so interesting. That puts a whole different spin on... ‘Cause I always wonder, why is that people’s instinct to, um, yeah, they wanna be... I mean, it’s what all writers want in a way, right?We wanna be loved, we wanna be chosen, we [00:14:00] wanna be, um, embraced by our readers and by our fans. We wanna have fans. Um, what an interesting way to think about that.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah. We also wanna be in control, ‘cause it’s scary to let, let go of a little bit of that control or to, like, like you were talking about- Actually, instead of talking about, you know, s- pre-order my book, and you actually start saying, “This is, this is the, this is why this book may be helpful for you,” you’re opening yourself up to more rejection because what if someone doesn’t find it helpful, right?Or doesn’t- Or says- Their, their experience ... you don’t knowJennie Nash: what you’re talking about.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, and that’s what I really liked. So when you were coaching me on my, on, um, the wire frame of my, the website or the, the branding, you coached me on these two lines. This work is right for you if... And entering in all the reasons, like who, who is it that you’re, th- is a good match?And this work may not be for you if... [00:15:00] Which is so dangerous to say, right? So it may not be for you if you’re looking for something quick, polished and comfortable. This isn’t that. And so you actually are gonna turn away a few people. That, and in some ways you kind of are proving yourself, but not in a direct way, by saying, “I can own this space and tell you this is who, who it’s gonna work for, this is who it’s not gonna work for, and I don’t need it to work for all of you.”So it ha- it has a little bit of actually more proof to it, but it’s also a little bit more vulnerable.Jennie Nash: That’s so cool. So for a fiction writer, they might think to themselves, “I wrote this particular kind of book.” Uh, well, let’s just take a happily ever after romance. I wrote a happily ever after romance for people who love this type of thing and this type of character and this type of situation.You know, maybe it’s friends to lovers or whatever, and, and it’s not for people who are looking for this other thing. Like to-Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, if you’re looking for bullet points on how to be a better romantic partner and some self-help, this [00:16:00] book is not it. You know? Like, but it, it is this, you’re gonna get this experience or this journey or the, these, um, the gosh, when you’re, like, on the beach reading this book, you’re not gonna wanna put it down ‘cause you’re so engrossed in it versus the types of book, the s- books that I write, which are much more actionable, bullet-pointy, and, you know, you’ll be able to put it down.You’ll be able to put my books down for a little bit, take a break. So it’s- You haveJennie Nash: to. Let your brain, yeah. You have to. Let your brain process.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah.Jennie Nash: So what can people do if they feel themselves in that I have to prove it energy? What’s a way to, to get out of it, um, short of having, um, your book coach tell youDr. Diana Hill: that- Yeahthey hate it? Okay, so here’s the bullet points. This is, this is the, the, the bullet point thing. First ask yourself, am I, am I trying to seek safety? Am I trying to experience a sense of autonomy? Am, um, or am I [00:17:00] trying to experience belonging? Is this about wanting to belong? Those three things. Like, am I trying to feel safe?Am I trying... And is that what’s really driving me? And just asking yourself that can help you remember, okay, what’s, what’s driving this desire to prove myself? And when you ask yourself what’s driving this desire to prove yourself, you actually can meet those inner yearnings that are underneath that in a more authentic wayJennie Nash: I love that.I love that Yeah And, and then maybe then own, own your work, um, in a way that’s, I don’t know what the word would be, well, more authentic, but, um, probably just feels better. ‘Cause isn’t that where you landed? Where you j- you s- there was such a sense of relief when you landed on the right way of presenting yourself.Just it was like, “Ah, yes. This is- Yeah ... where I wanna be.”Dr. Diana Hill: Well, yeah. It’s, it’s relief because it feels more congruent so that you know what you’re putting on the page was also, would also be what you’re telling [00:18:00] someone if you’re sitting next to them at dinner. It’s, it’s congruent, it matches, it, it flows, it’s more you than the proving yourself energy where it’s a lot more effort, it’s a lot more, um, contraction, it’s a lot more keeping track of things, ‘cause I have to prove X, Y, and Z, and it’s a lot less connection, ease, and flow.Jennie Nash: Yeah. Uh, which is what happens when you’re in wise effort. That’s what your book is about. So that, that was a neat way to bring it around to your, your, uh, your core thing. I think it’s worth pointing out that even someone like you, who is a world-class expert in these ideas and how to, how to be in wise effort, even you struggle with falling into these traps of proving yourself.And I certainly do every day. Um, so I think it’s just worth noting that nobody, nobody escapes this.Dr. Diana Hill: [00:19:00] Nobody escapes being a human. Of course not. So these are our human, these are our human ten- tendencies.Jennie Nash: Yeah.Dr. Diana Hill: They’re just human tendencies. And when we can see it as that, then we can use our wiser minds to help us with our more human selves that get c- gets caught and trapped.And, uh, and then the, the other part of it that I think is really huge for me is having people like you, Jennie, in my life that help doing this type of point, do the pointing out in the way that you do it, that is I know that you totally have my back, and so that’s why you can give me tough love. So you need some tough love people reading your work, uh, that you trust, that aren’t, aren’t gonna let it just slip through ‘cause it’s not, you know, let the prove y- but actually will point it out to you, but will point out to you in a way that feels like this, this is gonna be better because they see me and know me.Yeah.Jennie Nash: I love that. Well, thank you for coming on to talk about this idea. And for our listeners, until next time, [00:20:00] stop playing small and write like it matters.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

June 5, 2026Episode 50749 min

Hot Seat Coaching: From Concept to Page: The Journey of a Thriller with Andrew Parrella

Jennie Nash returns to a #amwriting hot seat with novelist Andrew Perella. Building on prior guidance from ThrillerFest’s Samantha Skal, they refine Andrew’s thriller outline—especially antagonist Seward’s motivation, escalating twists, and clue/red-herring sophistication—while acknowledging outline fatigue and treating it as a living document updated alongside drafted scenes. Andrew adds a new opening murder to raise the early body count without revealing the killer, links the victim to Abby, and explores Seward’s conflicted “strategy” to preserve an old-world hierarchy that targets women’s and vampires’ agency. They also discuss Quince as a privileged, unreliable brother and the need to define Mina’s telepathic vampire “magic” so her influence preserves Abby’s agency and makes Mina’s end offer a harder choice. They plan to review drafted chapters next. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

May 29, 2026Episode 5066 min

Write Big: Rejection as Rocket Fuel

In this #amwriting Write Big session, Jennie Nash discusses managing mindset during the submission process, sharing that her new book project is out with an agent in staged publisher batches and that rejections often arrive faster than acceptances because “yes” decisions take more time and coordination. With four early nos, she feels encouraged because most responses cite familiarity with her and her work and affirm the project’s purpose, offering specific, non-boilerplate feedback. She frames these nos as validation and useful information, emphasizes not relying on external approval, and urges writers pitching or on submission to treat rejections as fuel while focusing on enjoying the journey. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

May 22, 2026Episode 50511 min

Write Big: Stop Begging to Be Chosen

Jennie Nash shares a #amwriting “Write Big” session on letting go of “pick me” energy in publishing. On the day her new agent submits her new nonfiction proposal, Nash—author of 13 books with both Big Five and self-publishing experience—describes feeling calm because she’s also “picking” her agent and potential publishers, clear on the value she brings and what she wants in a partner. She argues writers aren’t limited to gatekeepers anymore and can give themselves permission and define success. Nash notes pick-me dynamics appear in workshops, writing groups, beta reads, and awards, and urges turning that outward grasping inward by choosing and elevating yourself and your project. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

May 8, 2026Episode 50310 min

Write Big: The Writer in the Arena

Jennie Nash hosts a Write Big session of the #amwriting podcast introducing an “arena” metaphor for writers, inspired by Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly (and Teddy Roosevelt’s “man in the arena” quote), Priya Parker’s The Art of Gathering, and Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. Jennie argues that writers, like performers, intentionally gather an audience and should be clear about who they want in the “seats,” what experience they want readers to have, and what energy and feedback they want in return. Using Swift’s deliberate creation of emotionally meaningful, immersive moments and audience delight, Nash urges writers to stop playing safe, claim full creative power, and step into the spotlight with purpose. She emphasizes that internal satisfaction comes from making what matters first, and that external rewards follow from writing big, not the other way around.Books* Daring Greatly by Brené Brown* The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I’m talking about a concept that I haven’t spoken much about before, and it’s a big one for me, and it might take a bit of explaining. The concept is a metaphor, and it has to do with an arena, with being a writer in an arena. And if the image that just came to your mind involves gladiators and bloody battles, that’s not what I’m talking about.What I’m talking about is Taylor Swift. So think of someone who gathers the people to them, who owns the spotlight and captivates the heart and soul of their fans with [00:01:00] intentional content that they make, and who’s so fearless about their work that they’re not gonna let anyone or anything stop them from doing it.Writing doesn’t happen on big stages or in big stadiums obviously, but we’re gonna borrow this image because it’s the vibe I want writers to cultivate, and it’s the heart of writing big. My arena metaphor has a lot of origins. The most obvious one is the quote at the beginning of Brené Brown’s book Daring Greatly, where she’s referencing the Teddy Roosevelt quote about the man in the arena.That Roosevelt quote had to do with politics and not standing on the side and criticizing others, but stepping into the fray and being part of the mix. And what Brené Brown said was this: “If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback.There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, [00:02:00] but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgment at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, cynicism, and fear-mongering. If you’re criticizing from a place where you’re not also putting yourself on the line, I’m not interested in your feedback.”These are obviously powerful words, especially coming from a woman, because I think it’s true that women who dare greatly get more criticism than men who do. So that’s one of the influences for this metaphor. But another is the book The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. If you haven’t read this book, I highly recommend it.It’s about this whole idea of gathering people, and she’s talking about physically gathering them in meeting rooms and at weddings and at Thanksgiving and things like that. And her main point is that you have to be intentional about the purpose of your gathering. If you don’t know why you’re bringing people together and what experience you want them to have- They’re [00:03:00] not gonna have an experience that’s memorable or transformative.And when I read that book, I thought, “This is true for writers, too.” This is what my blueprint books are all about, being intentional about what you’re doing with your writing, no matter what you’re writing. You have to know why you want people to gather around your words and ideas. You have to know what you’re bringing them together for.And as I began to think about Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly and Priya Parker’s idea of gathering, I began to think about this idea that writers are gathering people, too, and I began to think about an arena. What if you could picture your readers in an arena? And these thoughts were all going down in my mind around the time of Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour.We were seeing these images of 50,000, 60,000 people in these stadiums just packed in with no seat empty, and the lights are low, and they’re holding up their phones. And it [00:04:00] was obviously so moving for all the people in that audience who showed up there and experienced that and took the time and effort and energy to be there in that room or in that space.So Taylor Swift became the other thread of this idea that writers, too, are gathering people, and so you have to think about who you want to be in those seats of your arena. Who do you want to play to? Who do you want to speak to? Who do you want to create this experience for, and what do you want for them?But also, what do you want from them? I didn’t go to one of the Eras Tour concerts, but I watched the six-part documentary about it and the last concert that she filmed as part of that whole endeavor, and there was such a through line about intention to what she was doing on that tour. She talks all the time about creating emotionally meaningful and immersive experiences for her audience, so she’s not just [00:05:00] entertaining them.She wants them to feel something, and she’s so deliberate about that. Her whole thing about secrets and surprises feeds into that, and I loved these parts of the documentary where, where she shows the behind-the-scenes work with the different guests that she would bring onto the show and how they tried to craft some sort of surprise for the audience and tried to keep it a secret, and there was just so much delight in the way that they were approaching this.Taylor Swift would always say things like, “People are gonna lose their minds.” That seems to be a catchphrase of hers, and it’s what she wants. She’s like, “They’re gonna lose their minds, and it’s gonna be so great.” And this joy in creating the experience for those people who have come and this dedication that...I think she did 149 shows on the Eras Tour, that every single one of them was going to be impactful to the people who came. Not just like, we’re [00:06:00] gonna get out there and do a good show and give it our all and put our energy out there, but I wanna blow their minds. I want to make these moments of delight, and that intention is clearly what feeds Taylor Swift.She talks about that very specifically, that she loves the energy and feedback that she gets from that audience. So in the arena, you’re performing or creating for the people you’ve gathered there, but you’re also getting something back from them. You’re getting this communication or this energy that reflects back to you or comes back to you, and that’s obviously why performers do what they do.You would not get up on a stage 149 times in front of 60,000 people and put yourself out in that way if you didn’t love that. And I think writers need to think about this, too. What are we putting out there for our fans or our readers? What do we want to get from them, and what do we want them to get from us, [00:07:00] and what is that energy exchange like?So I want you to think about the arena of your writing life. It’s a place where you’re gonna show up with your whole self with intention, and you’re gonna do the best work that you’re capable of. It’s where you’re gonna stop playing it safe and claim your full creative power. When someone writes with that kind of authority, they feel the satisfaction deep in their bones, the sweet reward in and of itself.It has actually nothing to do with the external rewards of the marketplace. It has to do with what you wanted to make and the fact that you went out there and made it and you called people, you gathered the people around to be part of it with you. And the paradox of this whole thing is that when you decide to step into the arena and play big, it comes across in the writing, and that leads to the exact external rewards that most writers crave.It doesn’t work the [00:08:00] other way around. You can’t go after those external things and feel the internal satisfaction. You have to do the work that’s gonna feed that internal desire that you have and that thing that you want to make and that you want to create for yourself in order to get the things that you want from your writing.So this metaphor of creating the arena for your writing life and stepping into it in your fullest power and learning how to be the person in the spotlight is something that I want you to really think about. All of the 14 questions in my blueprint for a book process are really about this. Why are you writing a book is really why do you want to gather people to you?Why do you want to be heard and seen? And who are you writing for is who do you want to invite into that arena and put in those seats and play for? Your arena is going to be different from every other writer’s arena on the planet because [00:09:00] no one is going to answer these questions the way that you are.Nobody’s going to write what you are. So take this idea of daring greatly and being brave with your own life and putting yourself out there and marry it with this idea of gathering people around you with intention and designing the experience that you want them to have. And no matter what you think of Taylor Swift as a musician or a performer or a human, take from her this incredible delight in showing up and delivering something meaningful to your fans.And those things together are going to transform your writing life. There’s going to be no way that you can’t write big. And if you do that, there’s going to be no way that you can’t derive deep satisfaction from doing this work. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.[00:10:00]The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

May 6, 202640 min

Big Time: How to find time abundance in your writer life

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

May 1, 2026Episode 50248 min

Hot Seat Coaching: Building a Killer Twist: Going Deeper Inside a Gothic Mystery Blueprint

Andrew returns with his latest blueprint for a gothic mystery, and the coaching quickly zeroes in on what will make it work: a clear, compelling villain and twists that truly land. With help from thriller coach and Thrillerfest executive director Samantha Skal, the discussion unpacks the hidden layer of the story—what the villain is actually doing—and how that contrasts with the protagonist’s assumptions.As they dig in, it becomes clear that strengthening the mystery means making the murders more personal, introducing a convincing false suspect, and mapping both the visible story and the truth underneath it. By the end, Andrew has a sharper path forward: deepen the villain’s motive, raise the stakes earlier, and build each twist so it feels both surprising and inevitable.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Book Coach Sam SkalA fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Skal is the Executive Director of ThrillerFest, the co-founder of Shadows & Secrets writing retreats, and an Author Accelerator-certified book coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, horror, and suspense authors. Sam writes stories that keep her up at night, is a breast cancer survivor, and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Learn more at www.samanthaskal.com and www.shadowsandsecrets.com. Catch Up on Andrew’s Hot Seat Coaching JourneyTranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real challenge in real time.And today we’re back talking with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who has stepped out from behind the mic to work on a novel. And where we left Andrew last time was you’d worked through the whole blueprint and you were tasked with completing. Inside outline. So before we get into our guest and, um, what we’re gonna do today, how was that, what was it like for you?Um, I mean, it was, it was, uh, really hard. Uh, but it was, it was, uh, it was really gratifying and it was, it was a lot of fun to do as well. Um. Because I think, um, part of, part of the assignment, you, you, you left for me, [00:01:00] Jenny, was to also beef out certain elements of certain, certain, the presence of certain characters, um, and certain and certain elements of the book.And so I was trying to do that as well as. As, as crafting the outline. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was a long, it was a struggle. It was a struggle, especially to get it to three, to keep it to three, to get it down to three pages. I know, and I’m very strict about that for reasons you are. Um, and. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you did it though?Like, oh, this is a book and I’m writing it, or how did that land? Yeah, I mean, like at first I just started writing. I started writing the scene bullets and the, and the points, and just started like, okay, what are all the, what are all the elements that that. I have in my head that I need to get down onto paper and it was like 6, 7, 8 pages.And I was like, okay, now I gotta get this down to three pages. Um, and, and, and I was like, okay, I can combine these two scenes or maybe I don’t need this. So I just ended up cutting a lot and cutting a lot [00:02:00] and getting it down. So like, yes, there was a sense of like. Completion. Um, that was certainly gratifying, uh, to get that.And, uh, I had a couple of late nights, um, getting that, getting that squared away, but yeah, it also feels, feels more real now. Um, and it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a there here, which I’m pretty excited about. I’m excited about too, and I’m also excited because we’re doing something really cool today.Um, and we have with us Samantha Skull, who I will introduce in a hot second. But hi Samantha. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Well, I’m excited too because, um. Sam, as I call her, um, I’ve known for quite some time. She’s one of the OG author, accelerator certified coaches. And Sam, you actually don’t know this, but I use you.Probably every day.Oh my God, I’m so flattered as an example of [00:03:00] what a great book coach should do, which is to focus and choose who you’re gonna serve and how you’re gonna serve them, and to really go deep into what you love and what you wanna do all day. Right? The read books all day and get paid for it thing like do what you love and you.Do that. You’ve done that just so powerfully and it’s so visible on your website, which we’ll link to in the show notes so folks can go see, but. Sam loves all the dark and suspenseful and scary mystery, twisty things, which always just cracked me up because I don’t, and that’s what’s so beautiful about book coaching and writing for that matters.Everybody has their own thing and, and that’s part of the work of writing Big is. What is your thing? You know? So the reason that I wanted Sam to come is she’s built a whole business on this type of work and with, um, another author, [00:04:00] accelerator coach, she runs a really cool, uh, writing retreat that is, um, it’s always in Salem.Right. It is in a haunted hotel, which, um, Carrie Savage, who is my co-founder in shadows and secrets, uh, loves being haunted. I do not choose to be haunted, so I choose the non haunted floor. So they have that retreat and they, um, have just started taking it virtual and just all kinds of tools and resources and things for people writing this kind of work.And in addition to that, I. I just am always impressed by your trajectory of having gone from. A volunteer at the Thriller Fest. Well, for a participant at the Thriller Fest conference to being a volunteer, to running the Pitch Fest piece of the thing. And now you’re, well then you were co-director, now you’re running the whole thing.You’re, you’re, yes, I am. You’re running the entire [00:05:00] Thriller Fest conference, which is how many writers every year. Oh, we have around a thousand and I have a team behind me. Just to be clear. This would not happen without a village, but uh, yes, we have around a thousand thriller authors who come to New York and we, uh, we talk about the dark stuff all week.It’s absolutely the, the best time. And it’s in two weeks. I can’t, I mean, when this comes out, it may have already passed, but yeah, can’t wait. No, this is coming out right before, so if anybody wants a quick getaway to New York, they should go. But also just the programming, watch the programming coming out of it and we’re so excited.Yeah, it’s really good. So, um, I just, I love the career you’ve built for yourself. It’s always just really inspiring to me. And, um, also a recent breast cancer survivor, so we’re, uh, always wanna shout out to that. Yes. Get your scans. That’s my PSA. Always love it. Same. Love it. Love it. So I wanted Sam to come look at Andrew’s inside [00:06:00] outline because I knew that the thing he has to work on is this, what I call in my not totally expertise in this area.I call the twisties of it. That there’s a, you know, it’s a mystery. It’s a murder, it’s a gothic, it’s horror. It’s all the things. And it, those twists have to land. And this is so much Sam’s expertise that the whole time I was talking to Andrew about it and guiding him and coaching him, I just kept thinking, we need Sam in here.So, so we got Sam in here. And so, um, Andrew completed his inside outline and Sam very graciously, um, agreed to look through it and to look through his whole blueprint. So before we get into what you saw and what you found, Sam. I just love to hear, I mean, this is so self-serving. I just like nothing more than reading a blueprint.I think it’s so fun. Um, just to like, [00:07:00] kind of peel back the, the cover and see what’s in there. Did, did you have fun with that? Oh my gosh. So much fun. Andrew. This story is, is so cool. And I love the historical elements and the rethinking of, you know, vampires are running around London and everyone’s just like, that’s fine.You know, and then how does, how does this all go down? And we have this very agency filled, moxie filled main character who’s just a delight and yeah, I loved it. I have, I have so many fun questions to ask you. So Andrew, how does that feel? I mean, it feels great and I, I was reading through, uh, through both of your notes, um, in the, in the, in the outline and like you’re asking all of these questions.Um. Some of them that I have not thought of before and like, so I’m, so I’m really excited to kind of dig into these and talk through them. But I’m, I’m, it’s really gratifying to hear that this, that this idea is, is, is, is an interesting one. Yeah. I loved it. I a hundred [00:08:00] percent read this book. I’d, I’d see it and be like, yes, I want, I want to be in that world.Cool. Well that’s why you’re here. Because I would be like, no, too scary. Too scary for me. So, um, I’m gonna let. Sam sort of take it away and, uh, we could talk for days, I’m sure about this, but one of the, the things I love about book coaches who are well trained is they’ll hone in on the most important, the most important things.So. What do you think, Sam? What’s the most important thing Andrew should be thinking about in his next iteration of this outline? Yeah, so my favorite thing to talk about outta the gate with Mr. Thriller and suspense and gothic horror, depending on how dark you wanna make this, um, is who is the person who’s really behind all these murders and why are they committing them?Right? I like to think of MTS mystery full or suspense as the villain’s journey as experienced by the [00:09:00] protagonist. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we must know what’s going on beneath the surface in order for those twists to land, because twists are just assumptions about what’s going on that the protagonist makes.And when the truth, you know, what’s really going on with the villain is revealed, it’s twisty because it’s unexpected. Mm-hmm. So if we don’t, therefore if we don’t know who’s. Who’s behind, who’s doing all these villainous things. Um, we struggle to make those twists land and we struggle to get a blueprint that we can actually follow.So tell me your thoughts on who this mastermind murderer is and why they’re doing what they’re doing. Um, so. So Jack Seward is the, is the, is the Mastermind behind this. And I’ve been, I’ve been thinking a lot about it this week since I, since I finished the, since I finished the outline. And a lot of other things have occurred to me about who this gentleman is and how he’s doing what he’s doing.But I think the why is, um, he is committed to the status quo. He is committed [00:10:00] to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, you know, uh. He is committed to the manosphere. He is committed to the patriarchy. He has committed to, um, the previous way of doing things. Um. In, in, in society, in politics, in medicine. And so like he’s seeing this sea change, um, in all of those areas.Um, with the advent of this, of this, um, medical school for women, uh, with the, with this vote, um, vote, uh, that is happening. Um, and he disapproves and so his goal is to disrupt all of those, um. Disruptions di uh, by pitting them against each other. Got it. So if he can, if he can. Create this illusion that vampires are preying on Suffr jets.They will be too busy fighting each other to try and find any sort of, uh, agency for [00:11:00] themselves. Aha. Very, very well thought out. I love that. As a, as a mastermind villain goal. So here’s the other thing, is that mm-hmm. In the genre expectation for any sort of modern mystery, full or suspense, is that we have three twists.We have one at the mid and we can have more. Right. But we have one at the midpoint, which is just the midpoint turn. Like it’s, it’s a classic story thing, which you already have. You have a great midpoint currently. Mm-hmm. Um, and the climactic twist is the reveal of, uh, as, as Carrie, my co-founder and shadows and secrets likes to say, um, the climactic.Confrontation answers the story question, which is presented in the inciting incident and typically in mysteries, the inciting incident is who’s doing the killing? Right? Like, who’s behind this dead body that we have early on? And we’ll talk about that in just a second. Um, so the climactic answers that question, and then we have a final twist, which is typically the reveal of this gentleman who wants to keep things as is.And he [00:12:00] meanwhile. During the course of the story is going to be taking action to stop, uh, our plucky protagonist from stopping him, right? Mm-hmm. So he’s a full antagonist to our protagonist. And in that way we need a fake villain, right? We need someone that he can have set up so that she thinks this is the person behind everything in the climactic scene.And then she gets to the end and is like, oh my gosh, I’ve. You know, I’ve conquered, I’ve brought chaos to order, I’ve solved this thing, and now, oh my God, now there’s somebody else who’s actually behind everything. And actually we’re still in grave danger and we didn’t even know to be worried about this.And that’s how you get that like, you know, 85 to 98% just ripping through the pages readers, you know, being so hooked to figure out what happened. Right. Um, so. Tell me a little bit more about who Seward could have set up or manipulated or something [00:13:00] else to commit these murders so that he gets done what he wants to get done, but he also protects himself.And if you don’t know the answer, that’s okay. We can brainstorm. But if you do, then that’s great. So this is, this is kind of part of the, the, the thought, the idea that I’ve had since I, since I finished the, the, the, uh, the outline is. Because the, the syringe idea mm-hmm. The double-headed syringe idea always felt a little tenuous.Uh, like I, I wasn’t quite sure that that was gonna hold, but, so my new thought about this is, is. Because he is, uh, he is the, uh, director of a mental institution. Um, and so, and so, like, that’s a whole other politic where he has people who are, uh, who are in his thra essentially. And so is there a way that he can coerce, um, a vampire who needs him to commit these murders on his behalf, thereby kind of insulating himself from the actions.Perfect. And [00:14:00] so I think that could, so the climactic twist would then be. It’s a vampire I disco discovering that the, the, this is the vampires committing the murders. But then the, the, the final twist is, oh s**t, he’s been doing this at the behest of, of Seward, who’s her, you know, kind of Yes, yes. As it were in quotation.Okay. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it also, you know, when we step into this story, um, in your initial scene, we have. Vampires feeding on people and Abby’s just like, uh, okay, that’s, that’s normal. Right? And so is that, did I read that right? Is that the world that we’re in? Is that We have vampires existing and Van Helsing, you know, was the one who kept them in check.And we have all that like lore that we’re dealing with that the reader brings in. So tell me more about the world I’m walking into here. So, yeah, I think I’m still developing this world. So we’re 20 years. Around 20 years after the events of Dracula. Okay. The, the, the novel. And so, and I think, I think people are now aware that [00:15:00] vampires exist.And I think, you know, at this, at the same time, they’re being used as like this bogey man or, or, or straw man of like, everything that is wrong with, with British society. Um, but they’re also. Not the monsters, right? They’re, they’re just another, another, um, community that is trying to, uh, eke out, eke out some sort of existence.Um, I love that so much. It’s just such a fun, sort of new twist on. Know a story that’s so well known and has been in our collective conscience for a hundred years. You know, I don’t know when, when Dracula came out. Correct me if I’m wrong, but a long time, right? A little over a hundred years. Yeah. It’s been a minute.It’s been a minute. Um, and so I, so it’s still very much a period of transition as, as you know, London and the world are still trying to figure out what that means, that these things actually exist and live among us. Um, and, uh, and so. There were [00:16:00] some things that didn’t make it into the outline like I had.There was this one scene where they’re walking down the street and there’s someone on the soapbox at speaker’s Corner at Hyde Park who’s railing against, who’s railing against, uh, um, vampires as like a sturge on society and things of that nature. And, and there’ll be things in the newspaper. I think that kind of addressed this new, this new politic, um, that, that the characters interact with.And so I’m still feeling out what exactly it means. That vampires exist and are part of the public consciousness. Yeah. So one sort of logical question that comes up for me there is, you know, if we’re in society and there’s just like monsters living among us who occasionally pick people off on the street, that would create a level of, um, extreme tension.Okay. Right. One might say, right, like, yeah, if I’m wandering down the street and I see a vampire eating somebody that’s not just like a, you know, we would be taking steps to protect ourselves because humans are always going to protect themselves, and so yes. You [00:17:00] know what, if you change it where the vampires are only allowed to feed on like livestock or something.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, something that’s like the, nobody’s happy, right? Yeah. Like, like most, uh, um, situations where we, we agree on something and we’re, we’re all giving something up. Yeah. But that allows them to exist in society and live among us. Right? Like the, the veil has been lifted. Vampires are here.But they’ve agreed to only eat livestock, and then the fact that they’re murdering people by eating them then becomes. A huge deal. Right? Because this Deante that we’ve had with them is now broken. Mm-hmm. Um, something like that, because I think if we, if we have it just being casual that they’re, they’re eating people in alleys or whatever, it reduces, I mean, that’s a fun story, don’t get me wrong.Yeah, yeah. But that reduces the impact of the murders that we are seeking to solve with this and Right. You know, you said this was, this was a mystery. And so currently [00:18:00] we don’t have a ton of mystery on the page like we have. The midpoint is where, um, she discovers that things might not be what they seem, which I love.But in order for that to have impact, we need something earlier. And that could be, you know, these murders have been happening for a few days. That could be the last year. It could be she sees the first murder. Um. Something along those lines, but we need something early. So we, we understand the tension and we understand the mystery story question because you have a ton of other story questions in here, but if this is mystery first, the mystery story question needs to be who committed, who is committing these murders and why?Yep. Yeah. Does that kind of, that makes sense? Land? Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Now as a, as as I was, I was rereading the outline, the other, the other, the, the other night. And I was like, I feel, I feel like there needs to be another murder scene. Yeah. Earlier we gotta up the body count in the, the book.Yeah. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a conversation I have every day. [00:19:00] Yeah. Not, not enough dead bodies. Not enough dead. Not enough dead bodies. Yeah. So, you know, and so if she is, if she’s really worried about, you know, that’s their question is why, why is she so involved in solving these murders? How do we make it personal to her?Mm-hmm. And so could this be a friend? Could this be. You know, um, a sister, could this be an aunt, like some something that’s related to her so that this person is taken out. And then that becomes Seward has targeted her because she’s the, she’s, you know, van sing’s niece, right? Yep. Yeah. So she’s a public figure that if he takes out by having a vampire.Quote, you know, kill her. Then he will have achieved his goal of disrupting this whole thing and be like, look how dangerous it’s for women to be out in the world and you know. Mm-hmm. We should put a stop to this. Like that achieves his goal, but she won’t know. Right. Obviously that [00:20:00] that’s his goal. Right.But he also needs to create the unrest, so it’s not just, you know, she’s the one who’s murdered. That’s going to be the climactic plan and he will have killed other people in the meantime. Right. Okay. Something like that. Like we need to make, yeah. Whatever it is that needs to be personal to her. And if she paint, if she paints a target on her back later on by being a ksky, amateur sleuth, which is classic.Um. That works well as well. But I like, you know, one of the questions I love to ask is, what was your villain doing on the day that their prote, the pro protagonist, decided to ruin their life by deciding to go after and stop them from villain. And so maybe she had nothing to do with any of this and she’s researching and becomes a problem.That’s the other way you could play it. Mm-hmm. Um. But, you know, if he has this grand plan and he’s like, Ooh, Abby would make a great sort of like, figurehead to the end of all these murders, and that’s the one that I’m gonna point at it and be like, [00:21:00] look, we can’t, you know, I, we can’t have these women out here.Right? Something like that could work well. Um, what do you think? What, what’s, what’s your brain do when I say all those things? Um, it’s interesting. I hadn’t considered, I hadn’t considered that her uncle would be targeting her. One of the things I’ve been grappling with was like. One of the reasons he targets people around her is to scare her away from med school to scare her away from the cause, okay.Um, and kind of pin her in further to the existing, to the existing, um, um, status quo. Um, and so I hadn’t considered him using her. Sacrificing her for his, uh, for his ultimate goals. Yeah. Um, and that’s an in, that’s an interesting idea. And, and if she were to discover that would certainly up to stakes, um, that would certainly up to stakes for her.It would. And so if you want him to be a little more [00:22:00] empathetic Right. We don’t need to go like full dark if you don’t want to. Right. Um, he could be trying to protect her. By killing other people, which is misguided. Yeah. But, uh, fun. Right? And then that would make sense. So when she figures out it’s actually him, he could be like, I was doing all of this to protect you because I love you.You’re in my family. Right? Yeah. That also works. But we need to have whatever his, his plan is for causing, you know, using these murders to achieve his goal. If she’s, she needs to be the target of it so that it’s very personal to her as she moves through this story. Um, and upping the stakes is always great.It amps the tension, right? Yeah. And again, she’s not gonna know any of this until she gets to that final twist. And so one of like the most fine chilling, you know, tingly things that you can do with mysteries is that reveal at the very end. We as through the protagonist, understand how much danger we were in [00:23:00] this entire story, and we had no idea.Right? And that moment is the one that we’re seeking with readers and for ourselves, right? It’s like, how do we have that moment that reveal have the biggest impact possible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I, I see Andrew just grinning, like, what are you, whatcha feeling? He’s just like, got his giant grin on his face.I mean, like, and like I said, I’ve been trying to figure out how, because it, because as I was reading, as I was reading through the outline, it did feel like, like abriana was just kind of like adjacent to mm-hmm. All of the murders. Um, and, and Jenny, you and I had talked about whether there was an active investigation and, and, and Sam, I think you kind of alluded to that in, in the notes, is there, is there an active investigation and like, is she, is, is Abriana being.Is, uh, uh, coroner does a suspect by the, by the investigators. Um, is that, why, is that why she is doing her own investigation? Um, [00:24:00] which is another, which is another way to to, to up the stakes. Mm-hmm. Also, um, I, yeah, I’m, I’m, that’s an interest, that’s an interesting way though to, that’s an interesting take on Seward, who’s, um, an avuncular figure.He’s not, like, he’s not a blood relation. To Abriana, but like he is, he is determined in his goal and like, you know, he would, he probably would stop at nothing to get that done, even if it meant, even if it meant, uh, the daughter of a friend of his got killed. Yeah, I mean, just thinking through, and this is your homework, really, is to think through how dark do you want to make him, right?Because you can have a villain who starts off with. A, uh, a goal and decides to achieve it through very ill-advised means, but still wants to protect the people around them, right? Like they can be both. We don’t have to have it be a hundred percent. [00:25:00] This person is so evil and willing to burn it all down, right?And so, but that can also be a series of bad decisions. It’s like bad decision one leads to, oh my God, like people are finding out that these aren’t really vampires. Now I have to really like double down to make it really seem like vampires, so I don’t get caught. Because guess what, if I get caught, my life is ruined.Right? And you know, as Abby gets closer, he realizes. I have to kill her. Right? Yeah. She’s, she’s gonna ruin everything. Yeah. And that sort of angst and that, you know, that would be very painful for him. That could be the thing that when she confronts him at the end, and there will be a de Ma, right? We’re gonna have something where he’s like, I did all these things for this reason.And it doesn’t have to be Yeah. Pages, but we do have a, that’s a classic mystery thing. Mm-hmm. She’ll understand if you like this, that you know, he was trying to protect her and then. He’ll be like, you did this to yourself. You know, like, right. Yeah. You’re the one who got in the way. Um, something like [00:26:00] that.And he’s like, mm-hmm. My only choice now is to kill you. And then of course she will not allow that because she’s our lucky protagonist and will survive because chaos will be brought to order. That’s the other big thing is we wanna wrap this up unless you’re going who, in which case. It gets worse at the very end.Um, is, is that, is that, is that allowed? Yeah, we, yeah. Well, to keep chaos on the chaos, absolutely. We just need it genre bending is. So hot right now, right? Um, and it’s really fun, right? So you can have both, you can have the main mystery wrapped up, like she can, Abby can figure out, okay, this wasn’t actually vampires and someone is posing as a vampire.And so that actually changes your midpoint, by the way. We’ll talk about that in a second. But if that’s the arc, right? She thinks it’s vampires. She is, when she does the climactic confrontation, she’s like, it’s vampires like someone, you know, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? And then realizes [00:27:00] in that, that it wasn’t vampires and it’s actually someone else.Um, the chaos will be brought to order in that way, right? Like we have, we have a right, we have figured out that someone was posing as a vampire. But what if you have a final, final twist where you know, there actually are vampires. Killing people as well. Like seaward only admits to three of these murders and then there’s someone else doing, you know, and it’s just like we end it with like, oh no.You know? Right. Yeah. Or by, maybe there’s something mystical with like by imitating a vampire or that, you know, the vampires have been gathering their energy for the last 20 years by feeding on goats and you know, they’re ready to, we need a new van Helsing to, to keep them under control or something. And Abby takes up that mantle and, you know.You can, you can totally play it where there’s an unanswered. Okay. Oh no, it’s worse at the end, but we do need some sort of wrap up of the story. Gotcha. But there does seem to be some cover resolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So it strikes [00:28:00] me, I’m not sure that you picked this up, Sam, and you might not have, but that there’s a.Uh, um, Mina the Vampire. Mina, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is her mother. Right. I did pick up on that, and that’s a question I have. Okay. Yeah. Great. Because it seems like what you’re all talking about that could play a really important role in any of these twists and arcs. Right. I. Yes. Yes. Plus one. Yeah. Everything you just said.Um, yeah. So Mina being her mother, fantastic. One of your final twists, right? And particularly if you have Seward being like the final confrontation, final twist person, and then, you know, you have this lovely final scene where she’s like, oh my God, it’s my mother. Um, yeah. But the logical question there is why would Mina Hyde, what’s she after?Why would she not have tried to help Abby? Right? Because you’re dealing with reader expectations that mothers will do anything to protect their children. Right? And so you can, we can twist that. Maybe she is trying to protect her from what’s coming, right? [00:29:00] Like what’s actually going on. Maybe she’s the one who’s been protecting her the whole time by warding off the vampires that have been attacking her, her friends at medical school.Um. And that’s why there’s so many mistaken identity things, right? Because you have two where, where Abby’s like, whoops. I think that was supposed to be for me. Yeah. Um, and so the reader’s gonna wonder why are they so bad at killing her, right? Like, if these were assassin attempts, like why wouldn’t what, what’s going on?And so that answers that question. If it’s Mina stepping in, but you know, we need to understand what Mina’s really after and why she didn’t step forward sooner. That’s a huge question that, you know, yeah. Everyone will have. Yeah, it is a huge question. Like, like where has she been for the last 18 years?Mm-hmm. Why has Aubrianna not seen her since, since, since her birth? Um, and I haven’t quite nailed that down yet. Like, is there some sort of like vampire code? I don’t like, I don’t know. Is it, is it that she’s, is that she, that Mina. Knows [00:30:00] Jonathan, her husband too well, and knows that, that he would not allow a vampire, uh, to interact with his children.Like. And so I think there, I think there are a couple of answers to that, but I haven’t like, landed on one yet. Um, but I, like, I, I like the idea of Mina working kind of behind the scenes to protect, to actively protect, um. Abriana, which is what that, that opening that, that, that scene in the alley earlier on is about, is like she comes to her aid at that point.Um, and, uh, and, and and physically puts herself between, between Abri and Abriana and the violence, which Abriana misunderstands, uh, and runs away terrified. But I think, I, I think there are ways to incorporate that, as you say. Elsewhere in the, elsewhere in the story. Yeah. Well, I mean she, to make to a fantastic twist would be, she assumes Mina is the one after her, right?Right. Yeah. Like she recalls in this opening scene that Mina was coming at her and is like, Ooh, that’s the vampire that wants to kill me. Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:00] you know, sees her around. And so that’s her assumption. And this is how you create twists, right? Her assumption is that Nina is the person behind all of this, and why, but.You run the risk of when she starts investigating Mina and figuring out who she is? It would be, we’d figure out we need some very good reason that she couldn’t figure out that was that Mina was her mother, right? Yeah. Yes. So in that case, I would suggest having some other vampire be the one that she thinks is behind everything.Um, which leads me to the midpoint. So currently this is where she discovers that these bite marks are not bite marks at all. They are. Other Marks syringes. Right, right. Like the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so if that’s the midpoint, which I like, again, that means that she’s going to assume that there is a human or a vampire who’s lost her teeth.I don’t know, um, behind all of this. And the climactic confrontation will be with that, [00:32:00] with that knowledge that this is not a vampire doing these villainous things. Um. So how does that feel? Like do if, do we, is there someone in the cast that we can sort of have her assume is that person that’s not Seward.Not, not someone that I’ve identified yet. Um, okay. But I, I, I, I agree with you. We need, we need someone that she, that she’s pursuing and, uh, in, at, in, in that sense. Um, and, and she believed, I, I, I see, I see. Now I see what you’re saying. That the, the importance of her making that, that, that incorrect assumption that this is the person who’s, who’s doing, who’s doing the, the killings.And I don’t know who that is yet. I don’t know if there’s someone actively in the, in the cha in the cast that we have, or if I need, if I need a new character. Okay. I mean, you can also play with, you know, so this is the thing about mysteries, it gets very quickly complicated, is on the surface we have all the assumptions which are incorrect.[00:33:00] Right? Right. And so we have to build up that, those plots and make it plausible. Yeah. Because we need, you know, the example I like to give is like, let’s say you, you come home and you’re expecting that no one else is there and there’s an open window and there is a earring back on the counter and a bloody footprint on your.You know, nice white carpet and you know, um, a knocked over plant and then you recall, oh yes, you know the nab I’ve been babysitting the neighbor’s cat, they knocked over the plant. So that’s solved. But this bloody footprint is really freaking me out because clearly somebody came in here and made a bloody footprint and that’s terrifying.You’re focusing on the bloody footprint because that’s the most obvious thing, but the earring back is the thing that is the villain clue. Right, and that, that’s the person that came in and misled you by putting the bloody footprint on the carpet for reasons, capital R, whatever it is in this story, right?But we have clocked on screen, on the page what the clue is and ignored it. And so yeah, [00:34:00] this is how you can go back in on a revision and you know, you maybe we don’t know who this other person is that’s actually doing this, but they will have a vested interest in not being caught. Right? Mm-hmm. And so these little clues that we put on the page later are ignored, and then we’re following the story that we’ve already created.Mm-hmm. Um, but keeping track of all these layers feels complicated, which is why Jenny’s outline with three pages is so, so useful. Um, right. Because what the, what’s on the page is the, is the story that you already, that we’re focusing on, right? Mm-hmm. And then what really happened? Mm-hmm. Is the thing beneath the surface that we don’t learn until the truth is revealed in one of these twists.Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. That Absolutely. That also feels like a lot to think about. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t have, I don’t have enough red earrings. I don’t have enough mis, I don’t have enough misdirecting. Misdirecting clues, as it were. Right. Well, those are fun to brainstorm, right?Because we start thinking [00:35:00] about who really, it comes back to Seward. Like what would he be doing to misdirect Abby away from this? Right. To keep her safe, if you like that as a goal. Yeah. And also to make the, make society freak out about how vampires are killing again. Mm-hmm. Um, what would he plant, who would he manipulate?Who would he pay off? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe there’s a vampire who knows about all of this, and. Is trying to kill the person that Seward is hired to do the syringes because Seward’s not going around and doing this. Abby would’ve seen him or you know mm-hmm. Recognized him or something. So he will have paid someone to, or it has someone in his organization who also believes in the cause.Yeah. And is doing this, and maybe that person’s a vampire. I don’t know. I do love the double syringe. I mean, I hope that stays. Yeah. Yeah. It’s good. It’s good. Is it? Yeah. I heard you say, I heard you kind of dismiss it, Andrew, but it, to me, that would be a perfect misdirection if [00:36:00] somebody finds that and now there’s this whole thread of assumptions about what that means and Yeah, but that it’s not really what it is or it’s not being used the way we think, or so.Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Sam, you mentioned something because I was, I was getting close to like throwing that overboard. No, it’s good. No. Okay. Okay. I think it is good. So, so, so, so, but that could still be, that could still be used as a, that could still, I could still use it as a red herring potentially, uh, because it could still be a vampire at Seward’s behest committing the murders.But maybe they’re doing it with the syringe or maybe they’re, and or maybe they’re doing it a little bit with their own or Right. Or not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Jenny’s point, this could be a total, maybe. Maybe it’s not used for what we think. Maybe the double syringe is something completely unrelated and it’s like the best way to draw out the.I don’t know. I mean, depending on, maybe he is drugging the people in the [00:37:00] asylum, like giving them more drugs than they’re supposed to have. Right, right. And, and he devised, I mean, you know, devised a double syringe to deliver it and doesn’t want anybody to know that that’s what he is doing, you know? Yeah, yeah.Okay. Yeah, yeah. But if you wanna play with the idea that there’s also a vampire involved who believes in Seward’s? Cause then that, you know. That’s very interesting because it’s like, well, why? What do they want? You know? Yeah, yeah. Or even just someone who is, is being coerced by him, who does, doesn’t necessarily Yes.Believe in the cause, but is perhaps is, has perhaps been assigned to his asylum. Mm-hmm. And he’s taking advantage of, I love. Which I think, I think really makes sewer to a, a pretty despicable individual on a number of levels, which I, which I can like, well, I mean, he’s already killing people, so, right. You know, slippery slope.But that’s what, you know, it’s, that’s the, [00:38:00] that’s the thing is that his, his goals. We need to make logical sense when we get to the end and Right. You know, Abby figures out what’s going on, but he, he can also be empathetic. Right? Yeah. Like, why is he so scared of women? Yeah. Being in society, what is, what is that deep fear about?And that’s definitely something to explore as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so we could, like I said, talk for days, for days about these things, but, um, it feels like this is a good place to leave Andrew with a whole bunch of work to do. And I’m just laughing because, um, this is such a perfect example of.Why we do a blueprint, right? There’s so much to work out. There’s so much to think about. There’s so many layers and levels to every story. And, uh, you know, we, we heard you today, Andrew, sort of going, well, I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it. I don’t know. I, I’ll have to see, you know, that’s, that’s the work and being in that.[00:39:00] Discomfort and that not knowing mm-hmm. And the, all the possibilities and making your choices. That’s, that’s a work, right Sam? Like that’s, it is, it’s so fun. But yeah, it’s mysteries are puzzles, right? Yeah. And we wanna guide the reader through the puzzle in a way that gives them maximum impact and maximum joy.For every reveal that we decide to put out there, right? We, we, we don’t want to casually have a reveal. Everything is on purpose. Um, and so I was gonna say on, on the inside outline that you have, um, a parallel one, or, you know, if you make it even tighter just to flow the flow of events, you can have a, what really happened?Um, line which tracks what the villain is actually doing. And I do find that that can be really helpful because it does get overwhelming with figuring out, okay, we have assumptions. Yeah. And those assumptions are, you know, lead to action and this is how we get a repulsive plot. But those assumptions are.Not going to be the [00:40:00] actual thing that is the truth. And so we need to track what the truth is and what our villain is doing to stop our protagonist from stopping them because Yeah, forces of opposition, you know, so just for our listeners to clarify that makes sense. What Sam’s talking about is a parallel inside outline is, is to literally do.An a three page outline for the, the villain? Yes, yes. Or to put a bullet point or a, a subpoint on the protagonists inside. Outline that. Tracks that, um, sometimes people color code that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, but the, that’s why we keep this so tight because if you start making it nine pages or 15 pages and then you layer these things, all of a sudden you have a 30 page outline, and now you’ve just got one of those giant story grid things that I find to be impossible to, to manipulate.Like we still want this to be manipulatable, right. So that you [00:41:00] can. Hold it in your hands and see it and, and then get to a place where you say, I can write that story. I love this story. I can write this story. That’s, so that’s what we’re going for. So, yeah. Um, Sam, could you maybe just summarize, um, Andrew will take some time to work on this next iteration to show me.Can you give him direction on key thing to think about and me direction on the key thing to look for? Yeah, of course. So the biggest thing is figure out what Seward’s really, why he’s really doing what he’s doing and how it relates directly to Abby. Right. What is, what action can he take that is about her, and that’s either protecting her or, you know.Um, killing someone close to her to scare her away, but then why, right? Mm-hmm. So figure out the, figure out what he’s really doing, and then look and see what actions, what other actions would he take about who this other person [00:42:00] is that he’s framing or manipulating, or blackmailing or whatever. And if that’s a vampire, then.You know, why does that work when we, when it’s revealed? Like, what else could be going on? That makes sense. Perhaps the vampires don’t want women and suffragettes to have this power because it threatens the power that they have in society currently, or something like that, or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. But figure out what, what’s really going on.That’s your homework, that’s your big homework. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, for the next iteration. More murder on the page, right? We need the attention to rise and we need to understand why Abby, as she takes her steps based on assumptions, what are those assumptions? Why is she so personally invested in this?Why doesn’t she just give up, right? Because that’s the big logical question that I always ask is for both the antagonist and your protagonist, why don’t they just walk away? Why do they keep doing this when it gets hard, right? Because when someone’s actively trying to [00:43:00] stop you as the protagonist is. For the antagonist, why would the antagonist not just be like, okay, this is too tough, right?Like, I’m, I’m out, uh, this is, my goal isn’t going to be achieved. So why do they both keep going? And the answer is usually we’re in too deep, right? We can’t, the only way out is through, um, which is what the midpoint establishes. Usually. It’s like, well, shoot, you know, I can’t leave this story. I have to keep going.Right? So the three twists, right? We want the assumptions to be present on the inside outline. So we have a midpoint twist. We have an inciting incident that presents the mystery story question, murder usually. Mm-hmm. And then climactic twist, who is this fake villain? And then final villain, Seward. And then final, final twist.Mina is actually involved, right? And has been protecting her the whole time or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. So on the page, assumptions is second part of that homework, but you have to figure out what really happened in order to have the assumptions, which are Yeah, not [00:44:00] right. Yeah. So drawing, drawing out those two timelines of the, what, what actually happened, timeline, and then the assumptions, timeline and how they, well, the assumptions are gonna be on the page, right?Those will be on your protagonist inside outline, right? Because it, it informs her actions. And so everything you have about her fighting to go to med school and like all these things, all that works. All we’re doing is just tweaking it a little bit so that the mystery is more. Front and center, and she’s taking action based on, okay, I have this clue, what do I do?Now I have this clue. What do I do now? What stands in the way of each time I do this? Oops, I’m wrong about that. So what now? You know? Okay. And in the meantime it’s clear that her personal stakes are rising and she is becoming a target. There’s more attempts on her life and, and you know, then what? Right.Once you have a target on your back, you can’t run. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Make it scarier. That’s your homework. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to put her in [00:45:00] peril. I have to put her in peril. Right? You do. Yeah. Yeah. And the final thing I’ll mention about this is when you actually get to writing the way that you, even if it’s, even if the actions are a little less intense, right?We don’t actually have an assassin coming at her every page because we’d get bored with that. So through interiority, through inner thought, she’s going to think about what she’s scared of throughout the entire book. Mm-hmm. It’s not just gonna be, oh, I assume this thing. It’s like I assume this thing. And also I’m terrified because you know what, if this is about that, and that’s how you create those red herrings too, is because she’s going to make assumptions about what’s happening, and those assumptions will be based in fear.Right. Love it. Right. That makes sense. Love it. That makes sense. Thank you. My God. You’re so welcome. Love this story. Can’t wait to read it. Are you still with us, Andrew? You’re not. You’re not walking away. Right. You’re not like, I’m in too deep now. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just past the midpoint. Yeah, I was gonna say good.Good. No, that’s why, that’s why I’m, that’s why I’m grinning so [00:46:00] much. It’s like, it’s like, ‘cause we’re talking about this as if it’s an actual, real thing. It’s not just, it’s not just an idea that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had and been, I’ve been telling my wife about this is an actual, this is an actual thing I’m talking with people about.Um, and so this is, this is real. This is. It is real. It’s exciting. Um, we will, uh, see how this unfolds for Andrew and Sam, I just wanna thank you so much for joining us and talking about all this. Um, and I’m gonna tell our listeners that if you want this kind of twisty help, um, that’s Samantha’s website, which is samantha skull.com and that’s SKAL.She has a really cool, um, very inexpensive twist. Course, which you can, um, take. It’s just awesome. And it’s, um, she got some blueprint stuff on there, all kinds of things. And you can learn also about the retreat that she runs with carrieSavage@shadowsandsecrets.com. And you can go to Thriller [00:47:00] Fest and see all of the big work she’s doing for this community of writers out in the world.So Sam, thank you for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I just wanna say, Jenny, the reason that I focused, I mean, yes, I love this stuff and I have, I’ve loved it my whole life, but I listened to you. This was your. To focus in on what I love and I did. And it’s just the best I get to wake up every day and talk about murder, which sounds like a terrible hobby, but I love it.So here we are. I know. That’s why I talk about you all the time. Maybe that’s it. ‘cause you listen toI, I, uh, I push people a lot harder now, let’s put it that way. Um. Amazing. That’s, that is my craft. But thank you Andrew, again, for being so willing to be doing this in public. It’s not easy for those listening just to be on the hot seat like this for so long, so often really hard. So, um, you, [00:48:00] huge, huge shout out to Andrew and shout.Um, just for our listeners, thanks for tuning in and let’s get back to work. This is a public episode. 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April 24, 2026Episode 50153 min

Hot Seat Coaching: Exploring Protagonist Depth with Andrew Parella

Andrew Lands on a Single POV—and Must Choose an EndingJennie Nash coaches podcast producer Andrew Parella through the third “hot seat” session of his Blueprint revision, where he gains clarity that his protagonist should be the sole point-of-view character, with other perspectives delivered through discovered diaries, letters, and papers from her mother Mina and her uncle Van Helsing. After completing a stronger Inside Outline, Andrew understands that each scene’s “point” must be expressed through his protagonist’s meaning-making, which makes the story feel more alive but reveals key issues: an ending that doesn’t yet pay off and several underused setups. Jennie urges Andrew to leverage Mina’s influence earlier, make vampires more present in the world, and more. They focus on raising stakes, making the “all is lost” moment harder, and forcing a decisive, morally resonant ending beyond simply solving the murders.Visit Andrew’s website: https://www.andrewparrella.com#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Need to play catch-up?Check out Andrew’s first hot seat coaching session with Jennie: Check out Andrew’s second hot seat coaching session with Jennie: TranscriptJennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jenny Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast. The place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real writing challenge in real time.Jennie: Today I am joined again by Andrew Perella, who is the podcast producer stepping out from Behind the Mic, and this is the third time we’ve been talking about his blueprint revision. So if you haven’t heard episodes. One and two focused on this. You should definitely go catch up on them. I’ll link to those in the show notes and where we left Andrew, I feel like this is a, um, a soap opera or something.Jennie: Um. You were going to go off and do some exploration in order to decide on your point of view, uh, narrator, [00:01:00] and you were debating lots, lots of different ideas. So let’s just start by asking how that went.Andrew: Uh, it went well. I mean, it was, uh, it was really productive too. Go through the exercise that you played, that you, uh, that you, uh, put to me.Andrew: So the, uh, you had left it to. So to help me identify which POVs were gonna be most important to take the three characters that I had been identifying and kind of draw out an, an outline for each of them. I didn’t do a full inside out, inside outline for, for each character. I just kinda did. Sure, sure. A bunch of bullets.Andrew: Here’s the, here’s the story through this person’s, uh, through this person’s perspective, through this person’s perspective. And as I did that it became very clear that two of the characters, while very important to the story, I think will ultimately Billy Ancillary and the primary. Protagonist Abriana, I think [00:02:00] is going to be, uh, the sole POV for the book.Andrew: Um, so that was kind of exciting to. Get some clarity on that. And now that I know that a lot of other things come in, come into focus a little bit, it’s like, okay, I can spend a little bit less time, you know, developing this scene. That’s something we could do with a letter or a diary entry that she reads or some, or something to that effect.Andrew: And so, as I was listening back to our last session, I was thinking about, you had talked about other devices, um, that we can use to incorporate. Other POVs. Um, and so I think there can be diaries and letters and papers from, um, from the other, from the other characters. A Brianna’s mother, Mina, and uh, and uh, uh, van Helsing, her uncle, her, um.Andrew: And I think that she can discover these papers, these letters, these diaries over the course, uh, [00:03:00] of the story to learn more information, to help her clear certain hurdles, um, that will, uh, that will present themselves to her. Um,Jennie: so, um, I was really curious because. In my mind, I thought one of the people you were considering as the narrator of the story was a Adrianna’s brother.Jennie: And so when I went to review your notes, you know, you’d sketched out these, uh, mini, mini outlines for what, what the scenes or the, you know, story would look like from that. And, and it wasn’t the brother, so that was interesting to me. It was like, okay, so you really were considering a lot of different.Jennie: Characters to tell the story. And the other thing that struck me was, well, I could immediately tell which one had the most heat. That’s the best way I can describe it. Right? Yeah. It’s like there’s an energy or a a, a vibrancy [00:04:00] or the other ones were good, but there was a flatness to them. Did Is that what you felt?Andrew: Yeah, I felt like. There wasn’t enough there it felt like. It felt like there were other stories that I could create that I could invent for these characters, but they were less. Were less relevant to my protagonist.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah.Andrew: And so I felt like that helped me kinda, kinda focus in on her a little bit.Jennie: The other thing that struck me was, um, Mina, who’s a Brianna’s mom.Jennie: Um, hers was really, it felt really whole to me. It, it was like, oh, she’s got a whole story, a whole backstory. Well, it would be a backstory now, um, but. You know, she felt like a really 3D character with Okay. A a lot of, um, like I liked her and I was interested in her and I could [00:05:00] see a lot of places where her story would intersect with Aub Brianna’s that you could use.Jennie: So it felt to me like that was a really useful exercise for you to do. Is that where you landed?Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah, no, it really helped me explore who these characters are, because these characters are gonna be, as I say, integral to the protagonist, integral to the story and to the novel, but they’re just not going to be carrying the weight of, of, of primary POV.Andrew: And so I think it, but it was really helpful to flesh those out, flesh those characters out a little bit more. And I did have a lot of fun. Building out Mina’s timeline, Mina’s outline as it related to the, to the primary events of the novel. So that, so that was, that was a lot of fun. And I’m, I, I think, I think the outlines might have betrayed the fact that I’m still trying to figure out how Van Helsing, what Van Sing’s relation.Andrew: Is to the events of the story.Jennie: Yeah, maybe that, because that one [00:06:00] definitely felt the, the most flat of all of them. Which is interesting because he’s a, an existing character and an existing story in a way. So he’s kind of already been fleshed out a bit. But, um, so it sounded when you reported. The outcome to me, it sounded like you were quite sure that there was no more debate.Jennie: You really felt like this is it, is that true? AreAndrew: you, I am sure there is no more debate this week, uh, about that.Jennie: I was gonna sayAndrew: that question.Jennie: Um, okay. So what you did next was, the next bit of homework was. If you can land on that to flesh out the whole inside outline, which you did. Um, and I was really struck Andrew by how different this was from your first iteration were.Jennie: Do you feel that?Andrew: Yes, yes. Um, and I think part of that is I, I [00:07:00] had an incomplete understanding of. Of the inside outline when I was first rolling through it, and I, I was, I was struggling a little bit, but I also have a much better idea of what the story is now than I did a couple weeks ago when I did, when I, when I, when I wrote that initial, uh, inside outline.Andrew: SoJennie: what did you not understand about it? I’m curious.Andrew: I think, I think some of, like some of the notes you and KJ gave me after that first one kind of, uh, were about the point. So there’s the, there’s the, the, the, the scene or the plot and what is the point of this scene or plot. And I, I had difficulty, I think, expressing what the, what the importance of these, of these plot moments were.Andrew: Um, and I think it was a note that KJ gave me. It’s like, try, try writing the point of the plot. Through the eyes of your protagonist, how does this affect me as the protagonist? How, how [00:08:00] does this affect me? And so I was looking at kind of like, so I think I had a, a more full outline in that regard because I did try and.Andrew: Internalized for Abriana what these po plot points meant for her and how they would change or affect the decision she made next.Jennie: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that. Um, because what a lot of people get wrong is they think the point is another chance to explain why they’re writing that scene, why they, the author, um, are writing that scene and it the point.Jennie: Of it is what meaning is this character making of what they’re experiencing in the plot. So, um, you’re having understood that and understood your story. When I say it was so different, the, I mean, this is the progression. The, the first iteration was, okay, this is an interesting plot. These are interesting characters, but they’re not.Jennie: They’re not, there’s no [00:09:00] there, there in a way. Right. And this one I read and I, I was like, oh, there’s, you know, this is good. You’re starting to, to really weave, um, uh, a tail. And, um, it feels weighty. And I was really excited. It felt. Alive to me. Is that, did you have that sense?Andrew: I, I’m really glad to hear you say that.Andrew: ‘cause Yeah, it’s feeling much more alive to me as well. And seeing, and seeing all of these points, seeing, seeing this outline put together, it’s like, oh, this isn’t, this isn’t a gimmick anymore. This isn’t just an idea. This is a real thing that I can, I can turn into a novel that I can turn into a manuscript.Andrew: So, yeah. Yeah. It’s feeling, it’s feeling much more real now.Jennie: So there’s two things that I saw in reading it through, and these are the type of things that will be revealed when you have something solid. One is the ending isn’t [00:10:00] paying off yet, and you know that like you, you said, you know. Some ending scene here or something, you know?Jennie: Yeah. Ending tk. Yeah. And then, um, so that, that ending isn’t landing. And then, um, there’s a under utilization. Of the character setup that you, you’ve, you’ve set something up that you’re then not using, you’re not leveraging, and there’s three places where that’s happening. So I wanna talk about those three places and then we’ll talk about the ending.Jennie: ‘cause those three places are going to inform your ending. Um, so the first one is in fact the mom. Aub Brianna’s mom. Mm-hmm. So now that we know her whole backstory and her unde deadness and, um, that she may in fact be manipulating events in [00:11:00] real time, uh, for Aubrianna in story time, um. She’s got strong opinions, she’s got enemies, she’s got people defending her, she’s got secrets.Jennie: Like she’s got a whole deal going on, and it feels as though she only really enters the story very, very late and, and at a moment when Mina really needs her to enter the story. So it feels a little under earned when that hap when that happens. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?Andrew: Yeah. I agree. Yeah.Jennie: What’s interesting to me is it’s, it’s all there.Jennie: You have everything there to use. So now it’s just a question of looking at your outline and saying, okay, where earlier can this mom, she’s not gonna appear, but can she have influence? Can she have impact? Even just Mina’s relationship with her absence is not there.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And it [00:12:00] strikes me well, I’ll let you respond.Andrew: Um, no, I was noticing that like, Mina wasn’t terribly present in, in the outline that I, that I drafted. There were just a couple of scenes that, uh, included or, um, alluded to her. Um, before, before the end and, and to really build that relationship up, I’m like, I need to find other places, as you say, to, to bring her in, to have abriana reflect on her.Andrew: Maybe she finds, maybe she finds the diary earlier in, in the story and learns a little bit more about her over the course of the story. So I think, I think that relationship, um, um, needs to be. Be a little bit more developed, as you say. Yeah.Jennie: Yeah. And, and does Mina Pine for her? She’s not allowed to speak of her in her father’s house.Jennie: Um, but it, the thing that struck me particularly was you have this [00:13:00] fantastic new place, at least new to me, um, to open the story, which is Van ING’s funeral. Do I have that right? Yeah.Andrew: Yes.Jennie: Um, so this, the book opens with this young woman protagonist going to this funeral of someone who she admired and who understood her and who, um, wanted for her, what she wanted for herself.Jennie: So it’s, it’s a really emotional moment. For her, and it strikes me that she would be thinking about her dead mother at a funeral. Yeah. Right. Especially a funeral of this guyOutro: mm-hmm.Jennie: Who played a role in her mother’s life and death.Andrew: Yep.Jennie: Um, and it, so it’s, when I say underutilized and everything’s already there, it’s like you’ve got, you’ve got the opportunity.Jennie: Right. So Right to let us, that’s a [00:14:00] moment we can. Feel Mina’s absence, we can feel a Brianna’s response to that absence. Um, maybe the impact of the, the mom and the situation on her. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s just one example.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um. That was kind of really, uh, neon lights for me. Um, and obviously the inside outline is three sentences about a scene, right?Jennie: It’s not the whole scene. Right. But, um, uh, so do you, do you see. How, what you could do there if you did a pass through the inside outline, just thinking, how can I better use Mina?Andrew: Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, uh, I think you’re spot on there. ‘cause I really wanna, I really wanna open the, the book with, with a, with the funeral.Andrew: Um, and of course that would bring up. Thoughts, um, of, of, of a deceased [00:15:00] parent to, to anyone. Um, so yeah, I think there’s a lot, a lot to be had there. And maybe there’s even, maybe she even like catches sight of a mysterious, uh, a mysterious veiled woman at the back of the church who is also there to, uh, pay her respects and, you know, maybe.Andrew: Maybe this mysterious, this mysterious figure appears in other places over the course of, uh, over the course of the events, um, and ca and kind of catches, uh, a adrianna’s attention. I think there are, there are a lot of ways to, to, to, to, to manage that.Jennie: Yeah. Or even just a feeling that something is there.Jennie: That you can’t see.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, you know, uh, that’s a, well, we’ll get to the connection to that other piece in a minute. But the, um, the, the bigger point here is the, the role of anything in a story, an antagonist, a, a character, a situation is [00:16:00] to put pressure on the protagonist. For her to make choices she either doesn’t wanna make or can’t make, right?Jennie: Like stories about choice. So what makes the choice harder? What makes it, um, more potent for that person? What raises the stakes on that choice? So when I say do a pass through the inside outline, just thinking about Mina, it’s like, how can you use Mina to pressure, uh, aubriana and, and pressure can be. My mother would be so disappointed in me, or mm-hmm.Jennie: I, I can’t let my mother down again. Or, um, I’m so pissed she’s not here that I’m gonna do this reckless thing. Like, there’s lots of ways that that can manifest. Um, it doesn’t have pressure to do the right thing. It can be oppositional pressure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, she’s got, it can’t just be. [00:17:00] The way you have it set up, I think you would be really missing an opportunity if you didn’t use that more.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, so that’s super connected to the second I said there were three kind of underutilized things and the second is the vampires. So you’ve made a decision about do they exist, um, and. They appear now almost nowhere in the story.Andrew: Yeah, I think only, only in a couple of points. Um,Jennie: yeah. Um, and, and by appear, I don’t mean literally, here are the vampires.Jennie: It, it could be at the suffragette meeting, they’re arguing about the vampires or there’s, um, you know, uh, newspaper article everybody’s talking about, or there’s gonna be a talk. That they have to, you know, uh, disperse early ‘cause there’s gonna be a talk about the vampires [00:18:00] or, you know, like mm-hmm. Just a pres, the presence or the sense of them.Jennie: What are people doing saying, worried about, um, their, that needs to be amped up.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And when I say that needs to be amped up, that’s not, that’s not my opinion about your story. It’s the story about vampires. Yes. So, uh, I mean actually it’s not really a story about vampires. I that’s not true. It’s not, but it’s a story with vampires.Jennie: So therefore, story ofvampires.Andrew: Yeah, yeah.Jennie: We gotta have the vampires, right?Andrew: Yes. It’s a primary component of the story. Um, and, and there needs to be more of it. And I, and like, I think. There are a lot of opportunities, as you say, sitting down at breakfast and opening the newspaper. There, there could be articles about, about vampires in the suffragette meetings, there’ll be things about, there’ll be talk about vampires in, in class among her classmates.Andrew: Um, there’ll be, there’ll be gossiping, uh, there’ll be [00:19:00] gossip about vampires, um, and the merits of this community. Um, and so I think, yes, there are a lot of ways that we, I can bring, I can make the vampires more present, um, and. The nuanced conversation happening around the community. Um. To, to, to kind of draw, draw some, and, and help draw some parallels to, to, to modern events as well.Jennie: Well, and that’s why I say underutilized. Yeah. That’s what these topics are because there is such richness there and that your villain is, um, using fear of one to, um, terrorize another. Mm-hmm. Fear of one group to terrorize another group. He, he’s playing these two, um. Um, misunderstood or, um, marginalized groups against each other.Jennie: Mm-hmm. So it, it feels like it’s right. Should be right there, but it’s, yeah, but it’s not.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: And then s [00:20:00] same topic. Um, my deeper understanding of Mina, which I got through the, your test outline showed me that the undead are, um, have a agency in this world that I was not. I understood better, and so it made me wonder, are there other vampires doing things, appearing trying to influence?Jennie: Are they rising up in any way? Are any of the murdered people connected? Are there rumors? Are there, you know, did any other person around say my. Uh, I don’t know. Mother was a vampire too, or like, I dunno, like is it, is Mina’s role as an intermediary? I mean, she’s in a special situation, but I was just trying to like, is there a hierarchy [00:21:00] of impact that different vampire beings can make?Jennie: Am I, am I asking that?Andrew: Yeah, no, I, I hear what, I hear what you’re saying and you’re, you’re right. I mean, I have been thinking about, um, vampires within the suffragette movement, you know, helping the cause, um. I’ve been playing with the idea of whether, whether there should be a vampire in the school that she’s attending as well, and maybe she, maybe that vampire is trying to keep their identity, her identity hidden.Andrew: Um, but I like your idea about like, how are the victims related to. Vampires. I think I’ve, I think I’ve been, I’ve taken pains to relate them all to the suffragette movement.Jennie: Yeah.Andrew: But I think what would make them really appetizing victims for the murderer [00:22:00] would be for them to have some relation to vampires as well.Jennie: Right. And it doesn’t have to be so on the nose, like I just said, oh, I’m my mother too. It could be,Outro: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jennie: Oh, my, my father’s obsessed with them, or, um, right. My father says, don’t talk about them, or, you know. Mm-hmm. Relationship to the idea of them. That’s something I wanna reflect back to, that I noticed that I thought was really cool.Jennie: And I don’t know how intentional you were about this, but you’ve got this. Medical school, a Brianna’s going to this school for women and the suffragette movement. And there’s an overlap of those two communities. So a lot of the suffragettes are connected to the medical world. And you have a lot of the young women in [00:23:00] medical spaces.Jennie: So there’s, there’s the asylum. There’s, it’s the places people are having internships or being hired to be the receptionist or right, like the people are, which makes total sense. If you have a medical school for women and you’re trying to get them out into the world, they’re gonna be in those roles at all these different spaces and they’re, that was what was interesting to me is that you have a, um, very organic.Jennie: Reason why these young women are brushing up against vampire spaces,Andrew: and I don’t know how intentional that was, but I, I needed them to brush up against the murderer.Jennie: And, and he’s in vampire spacesAndrew: and he’s in vampire and medical spaces.Jennie: Yes.Andrew: And so that, that was my primary rationale, but, um, uh, but [00:24:00] I I, I, I like what you’re saying as well.Andrew: Um,Jennie: I just noticed it, and it also occurred to me that Aubriana could notice it,Andrew: that the victims have, uh, are, are showing up in vampire spaces.Jennie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because the way that you have it right now. I actually didn’t write this in my notes, it’s just coming to me while we’re talking. Mm-hmm. Um, her solving of this crime is a little bit, um, circumstantial and physical.Jennie: Yeah. She’s in the right place or she puts herself in the right place, or she gets an object or she sees. See something. Mm-hmm. But I think that there could also be two other drivers of her being the one to solve the problem, uh, which would be intellectual. She’s putting things together that other people are not.Jennie: Yeah. Putting together. And [00:25:00] you, you have her as she’s the top student in this class who’s failing now because she’s so obsessed with this. So she could be putting her intellect. It that would be really natural, but also this other sense connected to her mother, this six sixth sense, if you will, you know, understanding of other worlds, other creatures, other forces that could inform her, um, understanding of the crimes as well.Jennie: So. Now that I’m saying this out loud, I feel like this is a really important part of, um, making the, you know, we want the person to solve this crime to be uniquely qualified to solve this crime. Mm-hmm. So, not to, well, anyone in her position would’ve figured it out. Um, it’s because of her background, ‘cause of her connection to her mom, ‘cause of her dad and [00:26:00] her brother, you know, because of her aptitudes, you know, because of all these things she solves.Jennie: Yeah, the crime. Um, and so that goes back to both her connection to, well, well, amplifying the mother in the story and amplifying the vampires in the story. Um, so, and that actually goes to then one of my other points, and I’m jumping over. Well, I’ll jump over. Okay. So the, the last underutilized. Element is the brother.Jennie: So the brother got seriously demoted from possibly narrating the whole story to sort of being this loser, like spineless, you know, whatever. Which I love because it’s just such a great con. He’s like, oh no, don’t, don’t upset father. And, and you know, she is like, get outta my way. Like, it’s [00:27:00] great. It’s a great um, contrast.Jennie: But I feel like you’ve, you’ve got him positioned to do something really stupid, um, right. Or to do something really insensitive. Um, he can, at the moment, he just reacts, he could make a choice that really impacts her, that really changes the story.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Like, does he stand? With Adrianna or their father when it really counts.Jennie: Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s kind of the choice. Yeah. That he’s, you’ve got him, and so I feel like, again, underutilized, where can the brother really throw a wrench into what a adrianna’s trying to do for herself, where he maybe thinks he’s helping, or either that, or he is unable to rise to the occasion and therefore hurts her, but mm-hmm.Jennie: There gonna be a million ways to do that. But you’ve [00:28:00] got, so just like with the mother and the vampires or the brother, you’ve got a set up that you could have a huge payoff from that you, that you’ve sort of just left there. Do you see that?Andrew: Yes. Yeah. No, absolutely. Quince definitely took a back seat from when we were last, when we were last discussing him.Andrew: Um. Yeah. But I feel like there there is more. He can take more weight. He, there is much more, much more we I could do with him. Um, and like I think, I think I definitely see him as letting Aubrianna down at some point and like siding with their father at it at some crucial point instead of with her. Um, I also see him being kind of ultimately the collateral damage.Andrew: From the final decision that Aubriana makes, um, if she chooses to be with her mother at the end, she, [00:29:00] um, is, uh, then choosing, um, to never have contact with her father who has made that ultimatum clear. And Quince is not ready to make that decision. And so. You know, kind of falls in line with, with his, with his father.Andrew: With their father. So I see, I see him playing at this point, he’s playing a small role, but I think he could play a larger role. Um, yeah, yeah. As you say, presenting challenges or trying to help, but actually, actually making things worse or something like that.Jennie: So when you go back through the inside outline.Jennie: So we’re just continuing to tighten the screws and shore up all the holes. Mm-hmm. So for those listening who may be revising their own outlines or their books, um. You wanna think, what do I, what do I have that I’m not using? What thread do I, well, maybe that’s not the right metaphor. It’s like, what seed did I plant that I didn’t harvest?Jennie: Right? Like, what, [00:30:00] what do I have here? What opportunities for tension? Opportunities for, again, pressure on the protagonist, opportunities to make things bad for them, um, and. You know, that, that sense of her, like she doesn’t really suffer very much in this story. Mm-hmm. She doesn’t really, um, lose a lot. Um, and that brings me now finally to, um, the ending.Jennie: So the, the question is, how do you. How do you land on an ending? Um, and, and oftentimes the work that you did before this, the, the sense of, well, where does the story start and where does this end that bookend sense of we’re, we’re trying to, it’s solve a, a murder in this story, but more than that, we’re trying to, there’s a young woman who’s going through a massive [00:31:00] transformation and becoming something that, um.Jennie: She desperately wants to be that everything is keeping her from being. But the choice that you have right now, the story is leading to is to be with her mom or not. And in some ways, that’s a perfect bookend with a story that starts with a funeral. The choice to basically. Live or die, right?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: But it, um, it struck me as that that’s not the story you’re writing, that that’s, that’s never been the story you’re writing.Jennie: She’s, it’s not a story about, like, this could easily, you could just easily decide to make this a story about a young woman who. The absence of the mom is so profound in their life that they can’t function or, [00:32:00] um, you know, uh, live or love or all the things that one would want to do in life. Um, you know, sort of a yearning to be gone, or a yearning to be with that absent person.Jennie: This could be that story, um, where mm-hmm. You know, it starts with this funeral and maybe there’s a, a yearning there. Like, everybody I love is dead. Everybody who got me is dead. The only way that I’m gonna be with the people who understand me is, is also to to die. You know, like, it, it really obviously would change the texture and shape and everything, the story.Jennie: And I know that’s not the story you wanna write ‘cause it’s. Nothing about your why or your point or, right. So when you’re struggling with the ending, I always go back to those things. To the point. Yeah. And, and re reread them. Why are you doing this? Mm-hmm. What do you wanna say? Why does this matter to you?Jennie: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm. And, you know, it really is a question about, um. Uh, a monster is a person who doesn’t change when the times change or when change is the right thing to do. Um, so it feels to me like the ending still needs to be the choice of who’s, who becomes a monster or right. Or, um, is that the question?Jennie: She’s not in danger of becoming a monster, is she? She’sAndrew: not, I don’t think. Not as, not as the, the story currently stands, but obviously she, she, she goes through change and she can accept or resist that change. Um, obviously to do the change takes, requires a lot of work.Jennie: But [00:34:00] I think you would be short changing what you’ve set up.Jennie: If the change is simply, I wanna be a doctor. Yeah. And Yay, I became a doctor. Doctor and I got the bad guy. Mm-hmm. Right. There’s something thin about that. Yeah. Because at the root of your story are some moral choices,Andrew: right.Jennie: That other people are not making.Andrew: Right.Jennie: Uh, so it feels like something bigger has to be at risk for her.Jennie: So I wanna become a doctor, is the plot level, you know, and my dad doesn’t want to, and, and now all these things are preventing me from doing well in school. And, um, you know, all of that, the. The real story point, the emotional point, the, the thing we’re gonna read [00:35:00] for is, uh, you know, that, um, that moral choice,Andrew: right?Jennie: What am I gonna risk to become the thing that I want? You know what?Andrew: Yeah,Jennie: what, what, um, what do I lose if I become the thing I want?Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: And, and you could lose, um, people you love, you could lose. Um, I mean, there’s so many things that you could lose. You could lose your integrity. You could lose, um, your, uh, innocence.Jennie: You could lose. Um, but I think that, that it shouldn’t be quite so easy for her. Mm-hmm.Jennie: Does that, does that resonate with you?Andrew: Yeah, no, I absolutely hear what you’re saying. I absolutely hear what you’re saying. Uh, and as you, as you’re speaking, I’m trying to think through what some of her other motivations are. And while [00:36:00] yes, she’s motivated to become a doctor, she’s also just motivated to be an independent womanJennie: independent.Jennie: So what does that, that’s, what does that mean?Andrew: I think in her world it means independent of. The choices the men around her are making for her on her behalf and being able to, uh, and being able to embrace her full agency.Jennie: So there’s a moment in this story when she’s lost complete agency. She’s literally locked up.Jennie: She can’t. She cannot do anything.Outro: Yeah.Jennie: Um, and it, and it struck me in that moment. You gave her a super easy out. Did you notice that?Andrew: I, yeah, I think, I think, I think it was a fairly, a fairly easy out, um, I don’t remember exactly what it was.Jennie: Yeah. She contacts her brother and her brother.Andrew: Yeah, that’s right.Jennie: Whatever. And it’s like, okay. But that struck me as the [00:37:00] moment, the all is lost moment. You know? Like, okay, literally this is a young woman who seeks to be independent and have agency, and she’s, yes, her actions have caused her to be in a place where she’s locked, locked up. She cannot leave, she cannot do anything.Jennie: She can’t use her brain. Well, she can use her brain. She can’t. Well, like I was saying before, she can’t put herself in the physical place to solve the. The murders were to now protect herself. So what does she have left? She has her intellect and that other sense. Spiritual, if you, whatever. I’m just calling it spiritual as shorthand.Jennie: Sure. Connection to what, what we can’t, yeah. See or know.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, and what hap what is, what happens in that moment. That’s really, I think that’s where you get your ending.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: BecauseAndrew: I, I feel like that, yeah, you put your finger out. That is a pivotal scene. Where she’s at her lowest point. And how does she get, and you’re right, I I, I took the easy [00:38:00] way out there.Andrew: I think there needs to be a more difficult way for her to get herself out of there or find some other form of assistance to help her, to help her out of that. And I don’t know what that is yet.Jennie: Yeah. And it, it’s a really typical thing that happens, which is. You created this character and you love her and you don’t want harm to come to her.Jennie: Yeah. And you don’t, you want her to get everything that she wants, you know, you’re fighting for her as you create her. Yeah. But she’s gotta suffer. Mm-hmm. Um, and the, and the more that suffering resonates with, you know, what is at stake here, um, the better. The better it’s gonna be the be the bigger pay emotional payoff it’s gonna be for the reader because the reader, you know, is thinking I too am in a certain [00:39:00] cage.Jennie: You know, I too, uh, you know, am making certain decisions. And if I, if I make these choices and lose these things, like, I don’t know if I can tolerate that, um, or I’ve been tolerating that my whole life. What would it mean to tolerate. Less or um. Right. Right. You know, so if that’s the place where you really, the resonance of your story has to come is what, what is she gonna give up or lose or risk to get what she wants?Jennie: Mm-hmm. And, and if she, if that trade off happens. What sort of peace or not peace does she, does she land in? Mm-hmm. Um, right. So, yeah. Um, you have the plot of level of this story really in good shape. I know. We can make it [00:40:00] much better. The twists can get twist. Sure. And, uh, cl more, is cleverer a word? Maybe clever.Jennie: Like, you know, they’re a little crude right now. Yeah. Um, so they can get, when I being twister, just like, Ooh, I didn’t see that coming. Or, you know, um, and right. Right now it’s little Mina swoops in at the right minute. Mm-hmm. The brother swoops in at the right minute. So when you go back through. So here’s the work.Jennie: Yeah. Ask yourself, how can I use the mother more? How can I use the brother more to put pressure on the protagonist?Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: To make her choice harder, not easier. Um, and how can I use the vampire existence of the vampires and who believes in them? Who’s fighting for them? Who, who gets them? Who doesn’t?Jennie: What does Mina’s relationship to? To those three [00:41:00] entities?Andrew: Yep.Jennie: And then given all that, how can I make the ending be a choice for what the story’s really about and what I really care to convey, and not just a resolution of the murders?Andrew: Yep. That makes sense.Jennie: Um,Andrew: just making some notesJennie: here. There’s so many cheesy ways this story could end.Andrew: Yeah. And obvi. Yeah. I obviously wanna avoid all of those, but, um, yeah.Jennie: So these are, but you might have to, you might have to run through a bunch of cheesy endings Yeah. And reject them. And like, and you know, that’s not a bad exercise to do. Like, okay. Cheesy ending. What number one? You know, she graduates at the top of her class.Jennie: She finds the murderer, um, you know, some handsome, smart, you know, man who thinks she’s awesome, swoops in and marries her instead of her father’s [00:42:00] clerk. LikeAndrew: Right.Jennie: You know, all the things. Yeah. And. She has a portal in her house to connect with her mother all the time. You know, like you could like name every cheesy ending possible and but then de define why that wouldn’t be satisfying.Jennie: Right. OrOutro: Yeah.Jennie: Why you would neverOutro: mm-hmm.Jennie: That’s not a bad way to, to land on an ending. Yeah. Um, ‘cause the satAndrew: iden identify what? I don’t want to help me identify what I do want.Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. And, and to think about this is also where genre comes into it. What is the expectation, right, of a story like this?Jennie: What do you want the reader to feel mm-hmm. At the end? And, um, you know, if you want the reader to feel inspired and uplifted, like, I’m not, I’m just making that up. That doesn’t necessarily mean the ending is. Uplifting. Right. You know, [00:43:00] it, it has to do with the, the choices that character makes. So.Outro: Mm-hmm.Jennie: I mean, it’s a big question of how, of how, how does it end?Jennie: Um, you might, you may, you may or may not get there this time, butAndrew: mm-hmm.Jennie: Um, I would force yourselfOutro: Yeah.Jennie: To put an ending on the outline, even if you don’t like it, even if you know it’s not right. So that, um. You can see the ripples through the whole thing and And that’ll help you make that decision like, yeah, no, that can’t be the ending.Jennie: ‘cause then this cool thing I have set up comes to nothing or Right. What’s the point of having her had to struggle with this thing if she just gets it at the end?Andrew: Mm-hmm. Yep. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.Jennie: So what I love about where you are right now is you’ve answered. All the fundamental questions about [00:44:00] the the murder plot.Andrew: Right?Jennie: You know, we, we know who the antagonist is. We know his motivations, we know his, what he does. We know his mo, we know, you know, all of those things. Um, we understand. The physical, like I feel like you’ve done a really good job of almost blocking like a play, like blocking on a stage. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, like, okay, this woman and I could really feel that like she left her purse and then the thing, you know, like you’ve got the who’s standing where, when all of that’s in place.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: So now it’s really, um, um. Tightening these threads. Mm-hmm. Putting the pressure on her. Mm-hmm. So that there’s a gut wrenching choice at the end about, uh, the moral center of, of the story. Yep. [00:45:00] That’s, that’s what the work is. Easy.Andrew: Piece of cake. Piece of cake. I’ll have it on your desk tomorrow morning. Oh myJennie: gosh. Um, I mean, another thing that I would suggest is. Going to look at the books you love.Andrew: Mm.Jennie: And just read through the endings, you know, like books, you know well and love and mm-hmm. Read through the endings and remind yourself why, why was the emotional payoff so big there?Jennie: Why did I love that book? Why did I, you know, just to marinate in, in the, um, in a good ending, how a good ending plays. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, it’ll be fun.Andrew: Can I have more than three pages for my next insight? My next version of the outline?Jennie: Um, I thought you were gonna say, can I have more than three weeks? Um, [00:46:00] so I think the way we have it set up, you’ve got a, a little more than three weeks for this work. Okay. Um, to, to really dig in and do this work. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with, um. No. No.Andrew: Oh. Oh, man. That’s cruel. That isJennie: cruel,Andrew: Diddy. I know,Jennie: I know.Jennie: And the reason that I’m gonna go with no is that you don’t have your ending yet. And what’s the point of my saying? Yeah, Andrew, write nine pages. In fact, make your, make your outline. You know, go to 30 pages. Why don’t you just because this, you haven’t solved. Solved it.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: But here’s, here’s what I’m gonna say.Jennie: Okay? If you can email me and say, this is where I have all the power, I have so much power. If you can email me and say, this is the ending. [00:47:00]Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Then I will give you permission mission to, and it doesn’t actually even matter what it is. You just have to choose, choose something, because it could change, butAndrew: yeah.Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.Jennie: Something that you feel like obscene in a point. So the point is why it matters to Abriana.Andrew: Mm-hmm.Jennie: That feels like a logical, solid ending then. You could take it, I would say up to 10 pages and you’re gonna love it. It’s gonna be so fun. It’s such a fun moment. You feel so free. You’re like, wait, look, now I can put in all this stuff.Jennie: Um, everybody asks the same question, it’s hilarious. Um, but the point I’ll just for our listeners, the point of this particular tool is to keep it small so you can solve the big building block problems. Before you bake them into something bigger, because [00:48:00] just going bigger with the problems baked in doesn’t solve the problems.Jennie: Having more room to figure out your ending doesn’t help you figure out your ending. ‘cause the work you have to do is in your brain and your heart. It’s not actually on the page. So it’s really a decision you have to make and the failure of many, um, many stories is that the writer didn’t, no, they didn’t decide, they didn’t make a choice.Jennie: They didn’t want their character to suffer. They didn’t wanna, um, put that point so boldly there that some people would despise them for it. Or argue with them or throw the book across the room. Like they don’t wanna, that’s the whole write big thing. They don’t mm-hmm. The writer doesn’t wanna choose. And so therefore they don’t allow their character to choose.Jennie: And, and we don’t wanna choose [00:49:00] because it’s, it’s actually really hard that, and that’s the reason why we love. Novels because they give us the experience of what it would be like to be so decisive in what we believe or think or know or value that we live our lives with that kind of integrity or you know, we don’t have to.Jennie: It’s like we get to sit in an armchair and watch other people suffer to learn about the world and ourselves, and we don’t have to actually really do it. And, and then when it comes down in our lives to our actually really doing it, we realize how very difficult it is to, to choose and to sacrifice. And so that the work is, that’s why I say it’s in your head and your heart.Jennie: It’s, it’s not, um, it’s not just, it’s not the plot. It’s not strategic, it’s not intellectual. It’s really, it’s really what do I, what do I believe? Um. [00:50:00] How, how, how far am I willing to go to stand by this point that I’ve said matters so much to me. So, um, you could send me that email this afternoon. You could send it to me in two days.Jennie: You’ll notbeAndrew: ready this afternoon.Jennie: Uh, you, you should do it, um, soon though, because. My daughter’s about to have a baby, and, and I might not see it then, and you’ll be stuck in purgatory. So I’m putting, so this is the plot, putting pressure on, on you. I, I would say you got about five days.Andrew: Five days. Okay.Andrew: Come up with the ending.Jennie: Come up with the ending and, and like I said, it, it doesn’t, you’re not locked in for all eternity. Yeah. But, um. You gotta put a stake in the ground in order to make it work. Mm-hmm. You can put another stake in the ground later, you can unwind it later.Andrew: Yeah.Jennie: Um, that’s obviously [00:51:00] the work of creativity.Jennie: You know, you might write this entire manuscript and change your mind again. That’s all fine, but you do have to choose, um, because it’s not gonna hold together if you don’t choose. Mm-hmm. All right.Andrew: Okay.Jennie: Sorry.Andrew: That’s alright.Andrew: I knew this wasn’t gonna be easy. I knew this wasn’t gonna be easy.Jennie: If it was easy, I mean.Andrew: What’s, what’s the point? What’s the point of doing it if it’s easy?Jennie: Totally. You’re doing a great job, Andrew. ReallyAndrew: thank you.Jennie: Such a good job. The reason we are able to have such a rich conversation about these characters, this set up this world, is because you’re creating a really rich and nuanced and interesting world.Jennie: I think it’s fantastic. It just keeps getting better and better and better and, um, it’s exciting. It’s alive. It’s great. So you’re not that far. You’re really not that far from being [00:52:00] done and being unleashed to like start writing, which is gonna be so fun. So,Outro: yeah.Jennie: Um, I mean, maybe you’re secretly doing it anyway, and I’m just imagining that I have, I’m the puppet master.Jennie: We will, um, continue to bring our listeners along on this journey. Um. To see what happens, and it’ll be really fun, uh, to, uh, to meet next and, um. And check it out. Um, all right, so for everybody listening, thanks for being here. Now let’s get back to work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

April 17, 2026Episode 5007 min

Write Big 16: How to Sound Like Yourself in a Noisy World

In this Write Big session, Jennie explores one of the most essential—and elusive—elements of writing: voice.In a world full of sameness (and increasingly, AI-generated language), what makes writing stand out is simple but not easy: sounding like yourself.This episode is sparked by a moment on an evening walk, when the call of an owl cut through noise-canceling headphones—clear, distinct, impossible to ignore. A reminder that true voice doesn’t blend in. It breaks through.If you want your writing to connect, resonate, and rise above the noise, this episode is a reminder: your voice is the thing that makes it possible.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash and you’re listening to the hashtag am Writing podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a right big session where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I am talking about the power of tapping into your own voice. A lot of these sessions end up being about voice. The concept of voice in writing is so elusive, but I think it’s just so central to what we’re trying to do When we write big, we’re trying to sound like ourselves and we’re trying to cut through the noise of sameness, of sounding like everybody else, or lately of sounding like ai, which is of course, based on everybody else.It’s critically important to hear your voice and to work on [00:01:00] raising your voice and to understanding how powerful that can be. Something happened to me the other day that I wanna share with you because it was such a perfect description of why voice matters and what voice really means. So almost every afternoon I go on a walk in my neighborhood.And I especially love to go at dusk as the sun is setting and in the winter the lights really pink and in the summer it lingers for such a long time and reflects off of the mountains that I can see as I walk. I live in Santa Barbara, California, so we have these coastal mountains and I live quite close to those.And then the beach is a couple miles on the other side. So we’re in this little strip of land and there’s a rich diversity of plants and trees that grow in this space, especially along the creek beds. And I live right near a creek bed, so there are these really tall sycamore trees and also really tall eucalyptus and pine trees.In some cases, even some redwood trees. And then there’s all [00:02:00] kinds of scrubby chaparral like you get in Mediterranean climates. And the reason I like to walk at dusk is that the birds and animals are super active. So in the sky you’re gonna see hawks flying to their perches and rabbits running around to get away from them, and just all kinds of life and activity.But my favorite thing of all is listening for the owls. These are great horned owls. They have that very classic owl hooting sound that goes in a series like who, who, who. And what’s really cool is that the owls talk to each other. You can hear one call out and then a few seconds later, oftentimes from quite far away, another call out, but other times they’re really close.This one time I was walking and I heard the hoot, and then I heard immediately the other hoot. It’s a little bit like tracking thunder, like you can hear how close they are. I looked up and the two owls were sitting together in the top of this big tree. And the thing about the [00:03:00] owls also is that at that time of night, they swoop from high up on the trees into another tree.Sometimes they go into the middle of the tree to kind of hide or, uh, the opposite. They go from the middle of a tree, like a big spreading oak tree up to the top of a bigger tree so they can have their perch and check it all out. I just love it so much trying to find the owls and listening for the owls.You don’t hear them every night on every walk. It’s just such a joy when you do hear them. So I’m always listening for them. But what happened on the day that I wanna tell you about is they got some new noise canceling headphones. There are new in-ear noise canceling headphone from beats designed for working out so that they don’t fall out of your ears.And I got them because I actually lost one of my Apple ones on a walk in the rain. I had a hood on and it fell out. I searched and searched in the rain. I did actually find it and rescue it, but it stressed me out. So I got the kind that are meant to be more secure in your ear. And [00:04:00] so I’m wearing these new headphones and they’re really noise counseling.I didn’t realize quite how much I like to listen to podcasts when I walk. I also like to talk to friends or family, so I’m often on the phone, but also listening to everything that’s going on around me. It’s both things are going on. So I have these new headphones and I didn’t realize that I couldn’t actually hear anything.They are so good that all I could hear was this podcast that I was listening to. I couldn’t hear footsteps if a friend or neighbor walked up behind me and I couldn’t hear the creek running. I couldn’t hear planes flying overhead. I couldn’t hear anything. And so I’m walking along listening to the podcast, just focusing on that.And of course, the beauty of the light and the trees and everything else. But then I heard the owl cutting through this podcast and this incredible noise cancellation technology. It was like the owl’s voice was so distinctive and [00:05:00] on such a distinctive frequency, and it just cut through everything. And I stopped in my tracks and I took the headphones out and I just stood there and listened to it for like three minutes, maybe just.Doing, its hooting. And then there was a owl quite far in the distance hooting back, and I was just marveling that their voice, this particular way that they express themselves in the world, could cut through this incredible technology design to stop all noise. The owl’s voice is that particular, and that distinctive and just that powerful.And maybe I wanted to hear it that much. And while I was standing there, I thought. This is it. This is what writers want. Writers wanna speak in such a way that is so precise and clear and them that their ideal reader cannot help but stop and listen. I thought if every writer could be like these [00:06:00] owls cutting through the noise to their ideal reader, what an incredible thing that would be for the writers and for the readers.The owl is not trying to sound like a hawk and it’s not trying to sound like a hummingbird. We have a lot of hummingbirds near us too, and they have this very distinctive sort of buzzing sound that they make when they fly. And an owl is not trying to sound like that. They’re just sounding like their own selves and they’re owning that way that they sound.And in that moment I just felt it and I felt how powerful it was and I thought it was so awesome and, and I just wanted to share that with you. I thought it might be inspiring. I’m obviously going to have to choose between listening to podcasts and listening for the owls. And maybe that’s not such a bad thing either.Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

April 10, 2026Episode 49914 min

The Decision to Keep Writing After Grief, Illness, or Heartbreak

In this first installment of Margin Notes—a new series on the big decisions writers face—we explore a question many writers quietly carry:When life falls apart, do you keep writing… or step away?Jennie Nash is joined by clinical psychologist Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, for a conversation about grief, illness, recovery and the psychology of returning to your work. Dr. Hill will help us explore the emotional and cognitive side of a creative life.Together, we discuss:* Why “little by little becomes a lot” matters in recovery* How grief, illness, addiction, or heartbreak reshape your creative capacity* The two common paths writers take: stepping away vs. writing to survive* What negativity bias is—and why it gets louder during hard seasons* When writing supports healing—and when it becomes avoidanceAt the heart of this conversation is a simple idea:You don’t have to return to writing all at once.Sometimes, getting to the “mailbox and back” is enough.Whether you’re navigating loss or a major life transition, this episode offers a compassionate way back to the page—on your own terms.Books Mentioned* Wise Effort by Dr. Diana Hill* Little by Little Becomes a Lot by Eric Zimmer#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Transcript(00:00:03):Hi,(00:00:04):I’m Jenny Nash,(00:00:05):and you’re listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast,(00:00:08):the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life,(00:00:12):love the process,(00:00:13):and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.(00:00:17):This is Margin Notes,(00:00:19):a new part of the podcast where we’re talking about the big decisions writers face(00:00:23):in their work on creative lives.(00:00:25):I’m here today to talk about(00:00:28):this idea of recovery from illness or a breakup or a major life transition and how(00:00:34):you get back to your work.(00:00:36):And I have with me the most of special guests,(00:00:40):uh,(00:00:40):Dr.(00:00:40):Diana Hill,(00:00:41):who is my friend and my client and my colleague.(00:00:45):She’s a clinical psychologist.(00:00:47):Who’s the author of wise effort, how to focus your genius energy on what matters most.(00:00:52):And she’s going to help us dig into this.(00:00:55):Welcome Diana.Diana (00:00:57):I am so glad to be here.Diana (00:00:58):And another form of recovery, recovery from addiction is another one.Diana (00:01:02):Like if people are prioritizing their health and recovery in that way,Diana (00:01:07):how do you write through that?Diana (00:01:09):So I’m super excited to talk with you because I think I’ve been through everyDiana (00:01:11):single one of those recoveries in some form or another.(00:01:15):Well, yeah.(00:01:16):And we don’t have to get into it, but you have recently been through some big grief.(00:01:21):You’ve been through all these things in your life.(00:01:23):So how do you counsel somebody who’s trying to get over something or get through(00:01:28):something and also doesn’t want to abandon their writing?Diana (00:01:33):Well, there’s a great book that’s coming out.Diana (00:01:36):We have to mention a book, support our fellow writers by Eric Zimmer.Diana (00:01:40):And I always pick books by their titles in some form or another.Diana (00:01:44):And so there’s a great, how about this?Diana (00:01:46):There’s a great book title coming out, which is Little by Little.Diana (00:01:49):becomes a lot.Diana (00:01:51):And I think that’s something to remember in recovery.Diana (00:01:54):I remember after I had a C-section,Diana (00:01:57):I had two C-sections with my kids and the little by little was,Diana (00:02:01):you know,Diana (00:02:01):first you make it up to the mailbox and back,Diana (00:02:04):right?Diana (00:02:05):You’re trying to get back to that three mile walk that you used to do,Diana (00:02:08):but up to the mailbox and back was pretty darn amazing after you had a C-section toDiana (00:02:12):get to that milestone.Diana (00:02:13):And when you’re in recovery from something, you need to shift thatDiana (00:02:19):the expectation to what is a lot.Diana (00:02:21):It’s what is a lot in the context of what you are going through.Diana (00:02:24):When you’ve had a C-section, a walk to the mailbox is a lot.Diana (00:02:27):When you are in recovery from losing a family member,Diana (00:02:31):writing 10 minutes in the morning is a lot.Diana (00:02:34):And being able to shift that expectation would be the first thing and rememberingDiana (00:02:37):that little by little becomes a lot.Diana (00:02:40):That’s how we grow it.Diana (00:02:41):That’s one of the most foundational aspects of habit formation and psychology,Diana (00:02:45):And, uh, really is how I do most everything I do little by little.Diana (00:02:50):And then sometimes when I have a boost of energy, I do a lot.(00:02:54):And is that, do you think that that’s true all the time?(00:02:58):Like,(00:02:58):does it become more true when something intends happens in your life or is it(00:03:03):actually true all the time,(00:03:04):but we don’t quite see it so clearly?(00:03:07):Yeah.Diana (00:03:07):Well,Diana (00:03:08):I think it’s all the time,Diana (00:03:09):but more so when you’re in recovery,Diana (00:03:12):because when you’re in recovery from something,Diana (00:03:16):you may get exhausted more easily.Diana (00:03:19):You also may have some shifts in the way that you see the world and the way you seeDiana (00:03:25):yourself that,Diana (00:03:27):um,Diana (00:03:28):That negativity bias may be extra strong or your threat system may be on extraDiana (00:03:34):alert so that you’re a little bit more hypervigilant depending on what kind ofDiana (00:03:38):thing you’re recovering from.Diana (00:03:39):And so in that sense,Diana (00:03:40):we do need to dial up the gentleness factor that,Diana (00:03:44):you know,Diana (00:03:44):other times in your life,Diana (00:03:45):you maybe just to brush off the intensity of something.Diana (00:03:49):But when you’re in recovery,Diana (00:03:50):yeah,Diana (00:03:50):you need to be extra focused on little by little becoming a lot.(00:03:54):Can you explain what you mean by negativity bias, just so our listeners understand that?Diana (00:04:00):The negativity bias is just how our brains evolved.Diana (00:04:03):We evolved brains to keep us safe, not always to live our best lives.Diana (00:04:09):And so that means that you are the ancestor of people who were a little bit anxious.Diana (00:04:16):And when they looked out on the savannah and they saw some kind of obscure objectDiana (00:04:20):out there,Diana (00:04:21):they had a tendency to think that that object was dangerous or negative in someDiana (00:04:25):way.Diana (00:04:25):Yeah.Diana (00:04:26):And so they went back into the cave and that’s how you came about because youDiana (00:04:30):We’re born from that,Diana (00:04:31):but we’ve inherited these negativity biases and they get extra strong when we’reDiana (00:04:36):under threat.Diana (00:04:37):It doesn’t mean that we can’t override them.Diana (00:04:40):It’s more that we learn how to notice them and in some ways allow them to be thereDiana (00:04:45):while you still move forward towards what your values are,Diana (00:04:48):what your goals are,Diana (00:04:49):what’s important to you,Diana (00:04:50):even with that little bit of a chatter,Diana (00:04:52):that little what if mind in the background.(00:04:55):So I feel like when a writer is under the thread of something intense,(00:05:01):they tend to either take one of two paths in the recovery phase.(00:05:07):One path would be, I don’t have the time, energy, bandwidth.(00:05:13):to add this in, I’m going to push this way off.(00:05:17):And the other is the opposite.(00:05:20):And it’s this is going to keep me alive.(00:05:22):And I, I have to do it.(00:05:24):I have to keep my project going, keep my writing going, keep my voice up.(00:05:31):Can you help make sense of those that kind of binary response that I sometimes see?Diana (00:05:38):Well,Diana (00:05:38):like any kind of story,Diana (00:05:40):both of them are stories or frames or interpretations of your experience.Diana (00:05:45):There’s usually some kind of nugget of truth in it.Diana (00:05:47):And then sort of like that yin-yang sign, there’s also a nugget of not truth in it.Diana (00:05:52):So I don’t have enough time is a classic one.Diana (00:05:54):I mean,Diana (00:05:54):that’s again,Diana (00:05:55):whether you’re in recovery or not,Diana (00:05:56):that’s a classic writer’s statement of I don’t have enough time.Diana (00:05:59):And so we put it off.Diana (00:06:01):You know, we say things like in six months when I have things more in order, I’ll get this done.Diana (00:06:07):Or I will, would I feel better?Diana (00:06:10):I’ll start working on it.Diana (00:06:11):But the nature of our experience is that we really never have enough time.Diana (00:06:16):It’s more about prioritization of our time.Diana (00:06:19):And we miss that reality that when we engage in things that are more meaningful toDiana (00:06:25):us,Diana (00:06:25):we feel like we have more time.Diana (00:06:26):So there’s some research by Cassie Holmes out of UCLA that showed that folks thatDiana (00:06:32):devoted their time towards others or engaged in meaningful projects actually hadDiana (00:06:36):more what’s called time affluence.Diana (00:06:38):They feel like they had more time.Diana (00:06:40):So if you have that feeling,Diana (00:06:40):if I don’t have enough time,Diana (00:06:42):what you actually may find is if you prioritize your time towards writing,Diana (00:06:45):if that’s something you care about,Diana (00:06:46):it’s a value that you had prior to the thing that you were struggling with,Diana (00:06:50):you actually may end up feeling like you have more time or you may experience aDiana (00:06:54):shift in your perspectiveDiana (00:06:57):as a result of doing that writing.Diana (00:06:59):I find that all the time.Diana (00:07:00):There’s something like exercise is the same thing.Diana (00:07:02):Like I don’t really want to do it and then I go do it or I don’t have enough timeDiana (00:07:05):for it and then I go do it and then I ask myself,Diana (00:07:07):why am I not spending more time doing this thing,Diana (00:07:10):right?Diana (00:07:11):So it can be, yeah.Diana (00:07:12):But then the second side of it is that I want to go do this because in some way IDiana (00:07:21):feel like it’s going to either help me through or maybe even be a little bit of aDiana (00:07:24):distractorDiana (00:07:26):Sometimes our work can distract us from other parts of our lives.Diana (00:07:30):If it’s aligned with your values, you need a break.Diana (00:07:33):So something like grief in particular,Diana (00:07:35):people wanna feel really obligated to not feel good or feel obligated to beDiana (00:07:43):grieving in a certain way or all the time or not go back to work right away.Diana (00:07:49):But the reality is that when you start toDiana (00:07:52):do things that bring you joy,Diana (00:07:54):it helps you,Diana (00:07:55):it gives you more resources for the recovery and the grief that you’re goingDiana (00:07:59):through.Diana (00:08:00):It’s not that we need to be in the bad, dark space all the time.Diana (00:08:05):So it can,Diana (00:08:05):healthy distraction,Diana (00:08:07):especially when it’s aligned with your values,Diana (00:08:09):is in psychology,Diana (00:08:10):we call it productive procrastination.Diana (00:08:13):Maybe you’re actually procrastinating on the grief a little bit by being productiveDiana (00:08:16):in other ways.Diana (00:08:17):And that can be a good thing.Diana (00:08:18):It actually can be a helpful thing.(00:08:20):Wow, there’s so much to think about here.(00:08:23):So in your own experience, which path do you tend to take?(00:08:28):Or have you taken both paths at different times?Diana (00:08:31):I think I’ve taken both.Diana (00:08:34):This most recent round of recovery that I’m kind of a recent loss that I’ve had,Diana (00:08:40):I started out with just not wanting to do anything.Diana (00:08:45):That kind of like lead weight feeling of I can’t,Diana (00:08:50):I’m like walking through molasses in my day and not interested in doing the thingsDiana (00:08:56):that I used to be interested in.Diana (00:08:57):I kept having a hard time even getting myself toDiana (00:09:00):get dressed,Diana (00:09:01):you know,Diana (00:09:01):kind of put on nice clothes,Diana (00:09:03):blow dry my hair,Diana (00:09:03):those kinds of things that I usually do.Diana (00:09:06):And what I have found in terms of the writing process for myself,Diana (00:09:11):I’m not writing a book right now,Diana (00:09:12):but I do write newsletters and I write preparation for podcasts and I write postsDiana (00:09:17):and things like that,Diana (00:09:19):is that led to me just not wanting to write.Diana (00:09:22):And what got me a little unblocked, I hadn’t written my newsletter in quite a while,Diana (00:09:26):And I knew I had to do and I was like in the back of my head,Diana (00:09:28):like you’re supposed to do a newsletter every month or every two weeks or everyDiana (00:09:31):week,Diana (00:09:32):whatever your cadence is.Diana (00:09:33):And so I knew that was in there.Diana (00:09:37):And when I,Diana (00:09:39):what kind of got me unstuck from that space was when I just decided,Diana (00:09:44):this is a little by little becomes a lot thing.Diana (00:09:46):When I just decided to take like, what’s one thing I did today that IDiana (00:09:51):kind of felt interesting and was connected to a better bigger concept or belief.Diana (00:09:55):And I just wrote on that.Diana (00:09:56):And it was actually I wrote on doing push ups.(00:09:59):Because it was such a great newsletter.(00:10:01):I left it.(00:10:02):Yeah, it was so great.Diana (00:10:03):It was on push ups, because I had I was helping a client who was in their own form of recovery.Diana (00:10:07):And, and he’s in was had make that made this goal for himself.Diana (00:10:12):And then he challenged me to doing push ups.Diana (00:10:14):AndDiana (00:10:15):This little pushup goal was really helpful for me because it was so orthogonal to my grief.Diana (00:10:20):It had so nothing to do with it.Diana (00:10:21):What does that mean?(00:10:22):I don’t know what that means.Diana (00:10:23):It was so orthogonal.Diana (00:10:26):It’s going in the opposite direction.Diana (00:10:28):It’s not parallel.Diana (00:10:30):to my grief.Diana (00:10:32):And so my grief was like, had nothing to do with pushups, right?Diana (00:10:35):It had to do with friendship and loss and death and,Diana (00:10:38):you know,Diana (00:10:38):all those things and doing pushups feel so insignificant.Diana (00:10:41):But then I was able to,Diana (00:10:42):in this newsletter and in this teaching that I ended up doing for a talk that IDiana (00:10:46):gave,Diana (00:10:47):was able to connect that really small thing to something much bigger,Diana (00:10:52):but that came from writing on it.Diana (00:10:55):And I wouldn’t have gotten there if I hadn’t written on it.Diana (00:10:58):And then what I got to is like,Diana (00:10:59):oh,Diana (00:10:59):this,Diana (00:11:00):you know,Diana (00:11:00):doing something small in this way,Diana (00:11:02):if you can connect it to love or you can connect it to caring for someone else orDiana (00:11:08):supporting someone else or supporting yourself,Diana (00:11:10):these four kinds of love in Buddhism.Diana (00:11:13):that I wrote about,Diana (00:11:14):then you might be,Diana (00:11:16):you know,Diana (00:11:16):motivated to stick with it a little bit longer.Diana (00:11:18):So I guess I started out with the sluggish one of like running away from it,Diana (00:11:22):not wanting to feel it,Diana (00:11:24):needing to do little by little.Diana (00:11:25):And then I moved more into this is like actually a good distraction from my grief,Diana (00:11:28):but then it transformed into more meaning for me.(00:11:32):And it sounds like now you’re feeling a little energized.(00:11:35):Yeah, I’m pumped.(00:11:36):I’ve been working today.(00:11:37):I like I was back at work and excited.Diana (00:11:40):It’s funny because it’s a Sunday, but I’m working and excited.Diana (00:11:43):But I was excited to get to work,Diana (00:11:45):to work on a project,Diana (00:11:47):a talk that I’m giving,Diana (00:11:48):which involves,Diana (00:11:49):I don’t know,Diana (00:11:49):I guess in some ways,Diana (00:11:51):talks are a form of writing,Diana (00:11:52):like making out your slides.Diana (00:11:53):It’s sort of like outlining a talk.(00:11:55):100%.(00:11:56):It’s figuring out what you think, raising your voice, deciding what you want to say.(00:12:02):It’s all good.(00:12:03):Well,(00:12:04):what would you,(00:12:05):what nugget would you give our listeners to take away if this is resonating with(00:12:09):them,(00:12:09):this idea of I’m recovering from something and trying to figure out where my(00:12:13):writing fits in?Diana (00:12:16):I think the nugget is that we’re always in recovery from something.Diana (00:12:20):You know, sometimes it’s big recoveries and sometimes it’s small.Diana (00:12:23):And the beauty of recovery is that when something gets broken,Diana (00:12:30):you’re not necessarily gonna put it back to how it was before,Diana (00:12:34):but you get this chance to rearrange it.Diana (00:12:36):It’s sort of like if you throw a deck of cards in the air and they fall on theDiana (00:12:39):ground and you put them back in order in a different way,Diana (00:12:43):like what card do you wanna have on top?Diana (00:12:45):So you move from this harmony to disharmony to a new harmony.Diana (00:12:49):And if you do it in a way that has just like,Diana (00:12:51):go at the pace that you can go a little bit by little bit and sometimes a big bit,Diana (00:12:57):But trust that this recovery process is part of a new harmony for you.Diana (00:13:02):There will be magic that comes out of it.Diana (00:13:08):And we don’t always get to control the pacing and timing of when that magic happens.Diana (00:13:12):But it’ll come to you.(00:13:14):That’s beautiful.(00:13:15):Thank you for that.(00:13:16):And thank you for joining me.(00:13:17):I hope you’ll do it regularly.Diana (00:13:19):Thank you.(00:13:20):And thanks, everyone, for listening.(00:13:22):Now let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.Jennie (00:13:33):The Hashtag AmWriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla.Jennie (00:13:37):Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen.Jennie (00:13:44):Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyoneJennie (00:13:49):deserves to be paid for their work. 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