We're Not Marketers

Hosted by Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts

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May 2026

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About the show

B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either. What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers. The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door. Stop being overlooked and start listening. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

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May 14, 202649 min

How a Guy Who Graded Film Got Tricked Into Product Marketing w/ Jason Druss

Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap. If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you. More from this episode Why "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead) The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decks How Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not after The Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the end Being your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planning The exact reason Frame.io 's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920 Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really) The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data first How Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn posts Why "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefs Time Stamps 00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros 00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it 01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM 02:15 THE QUESTION: Are product marketers marketers? 03:30 "We're storytellers before we're marketers" 04:30 Should the product or the user be the main character? 05:30 The trap of feature-led storytelling vs. workflow thinking 07:00 What "workflow" actually means (and why it's not jargon) 09:00 The Frame.io / Camera to Cloud story 12:30 How Frame.io rewrote a 100-year-old industry workflow 14:00 Jason's spicy take: PMMs must eat, live, breathe the product 16:00 How user needs have shifted dramatically in 5–10 years 18:00 The Premier Pro pillow story (and why every PMM should have one) 19:00 Where most companies fail at user research 20:30 The private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users 21:30 Weekly webinars, betas, and the questions you're NOT asking users 24:00 Scrappy is a state of mind, not a company size 25:00 Jason's career timeline: Blackmagic → NFL Films → Warner Bros → Frame.io → Adobe 28:00 The crisis of faith — leaving "colorist" behind 30:00 Why Jason's passion is impossible to fake 31:30 The dark side of being your own ICP 33:00 Mixing intuition with data — the PMM credibility unlock 35:00 Advice for aspiring PMMs: become a subject matter expert first 38:00 The creativity rant — your differentiator vs. AI 41:30 ROI, business metrics, and earning the seat at the table 44:00 The "beautiful circle" of product marketing (and who's outside it) 46:00 Where to find Jason + Adobe Max teaser 48:00 Outro Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

May 7, 202641 min

AI is killing your marketing (one way to fix) w/ Gila Shapiro

Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever. If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you. More from this episode The two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy") Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriter The "shout pineapple" school of copywriting Why B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicks The dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contact The difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months) Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights forever Why making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobs The brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually works Gila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now) Show Notes Timespan: 00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab) 01:00 Introducing Gila Shapiro — Copywriter, PMM, Creative Strategist at Riverside 02:50 The Recurring Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:00 The "Elevate Your Enterprise Synergies" Test 05:30 Writing Copy vs. Being a Copywriter — The Frying Pan Analogy 07:00 Gila's Process: Say the Terrible Thing Out Loud 07:35 The Dinner Party Test 09:00 Why Most People Default to Corporate Jargon 12:30 Be Interested to Be Interesting — The Customer Interview Trick 15:30 Ownership at Riverside & Wearing Multiple Hats 17:30 The Broken Brief-to-Copy Handoff Process 19:30 What to Do When Good Copy Doesn't Convert 21:30 Personal Brands vs. B2B Brands: Why B2B Is Afraid 23:30 AI for Job Security — Copy Think vs. Copy Paste 27:00 The "Copy Think vs. Copy Paste" Framework 30:00 Internal Fights with Executives Over Copy 31:25 The Founder POV Reverse-Engineering Trick 33:30 Burnout, Garden Gnomes, and Chasing the Fun Parts 36:30 Live Pitch: Why Switch from SquadCast to Riverside? 40:30 Cheers and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

April 23, 202637 min

Allergic to bullshit marketing w/ Louis Grenier

Louis Grenier has run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers for 8 years. He's not here to be nice about it. In this episode, Lou breaks down why product marketing only exists because B2B tech forgot what customers actually want — and why your positioning project is probably being run by the wrong person. We cover customer research frameworks, the CEO buy-in problem no one talks about, and the Irish convenience store that is a crime against positioning. Hit play before your next messaging doc meeting. You'll thank us. More from this episode Product marketing only exists because B2B tech companies got so far from their customers they had to invent a role to translate what the product actually does. Why the most powerful thing a consultant can offer is not being inside the company. Lou's actual Hotjar failure — why the CMO wasn't enough to make repositioning work. The six things you need to know from customers before you can touch a positioning doc. Why calling something a "marketing initiative" is the fastest way to kill CEO buy-in. "Sniff the same glue" — Lou's surprisingly accurate description of organizational alignment. The 3-meter Irish storefront that is simultaneously a convenience store, Indian takeaway, off-license, and Red Bull dealer. One shop. Three meters. Zero positioning. Why community is just a word companies use when they want a place to sell at people without being obvious about it. Lou's hot take on co-founders: "Good luck to whoever wants to take that role with me." The one customer research mistake that guarantees useless data: talking to the wrong people at the wrong time. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

January 29, 202643 min

“I’m Just A Normal PMM Trying To Survive” (with David Lim)

Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't have a clue what you do, why knowing your customer's quarterly priorities is a superpower, and what happens when you fight a C-suite exec on product strategy (spoiler: sometimes you get fired). If you've ever been asked to "make that deck pretty," this one's for you. More From This Episode The brutal truth: What happens when you don't earn internal respect as a PMM Why sales teams don't talk to product teams (and how PMMs become the bridge) The one customer question David asks that unlocks everything: "What are your quarterly priorities?" David got fired for fighting a founder on product strategy—here's what he learned Why most founders have zero idea what PMMs actually do (and think you're just a lead gen machine) The "gut feeling" trap: When executives ignore your research and launch anyway How to stop rolling your eyes when leadership makes dumb decisions (David admits he's not good at this) Why working under the product org might actually be better for PMMs The ultimate PMM flex: Knowing your customer better than anyone in the company Are PMMs actually marketers, or just the people who make sales decks look pretty? Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Season 5 Kickoff 00:59 Introducing Guest: David Lim (PMM at BVO) 02:36 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 04:15 How PMMs Earn Respect (Or Get Stuck in the Black Hole) 07:00 What Sets PMMs Apart: Cross-Functional Collaboration 09:45 The Research That Changed Everything (Working Under Product Org) 13:00 Advocating for PMM: Educating Teams on What You Actually Do 16:00 The Metrics Problem: What Should PMMs Own? 20:00 Working with Customer Success Teams (QBRs and Product Feedback) 23:00 When You Know the Customer Better Than Anyone Else 26:00 Understanding Quarterly Priorities (The Detail Most PMMs Miss) 29:00 Customer Advisory Boards and Sales Advisory Boards 33:00 The Struggle: When Executives Ignore Your Research 35:00 David's Story: Getting Fired for Fighting Product Strategy 38:00 Gab's Story: When a Writer Called the Product "Shit" 40:00 Rolling with the Punches (And Why It's Hard) 42:00 In-House vs. Agency PMM: The Respect Difference 45:00 Post-Launch Research: The Key to Proving You Were Right 47:00 The Founder Talk: Setting Clear Expectations 49:00 Understanding the Customer's Buying Process 50:00 Wrap-Up and Where to Find David Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

January 15, 202647 min

The Anti-ICP Strategy: How To Use Your Website to Fire Bad Prospects w/ BX Studio

Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong. Featuring from BX Studio... Jacob Sussman, CEO Nikiya Griffith, Director of Organic Growth Grace Arrese, Partnerships Associate More from this episode Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steak The real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy) What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don't The "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write forever Why tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weight The CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually) How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketers The Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a week Why your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICP The shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think) Time Stamps 00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in 01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion 02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs 03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website? 03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It 04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key 05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion 07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems 08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution 11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO 13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach 16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy 18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion 20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster 22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging? 26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem 29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy 31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs 33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy 35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence 38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter 41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem 45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier 48:00 Closing Thoughts and Farewell Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

January 8, 202646 min

Strategy over fluffy jargon w/ Crystal Crouch

Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how being hyper-organized means her 9-year-old has never eaten a frozen chicken nugget. If you've ever wondered whether to charge hourly or by project, or why your messaging doc is just an expensive PDF no one reads, this episode will either inspire you to level up or quit entirely. Either way, you win. More from this episode... Product marketers are demand translators, not demand creators (and why that matters) The Oscar Mayer Wienermobile taught Crystal crisis management at 19 Why product management is 10x harder than PMM (Crystal said it, not us) 90% of company data is dirty - and that's being generous The one question that determines if you should take a consulting client Why Crystal's kids live by the Pomodoro method (and only have one TV) How to use silence to negotiate like a pro (hint: treat yourself like a product) The real reason your messaging docs are expensive paperweights Why you should NEVER offer free consulting work (but acts of service are different) Crystal's secret: "Happiness is a choice" - even when clients are a nightmare Show Notes 00:59 Introducing Crystal Crouch: The PMM Who Changed Zach's Life 02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? The Demand Translation Theory 05:00 Why Product Management is 10x Harder Than PMM 08:00 The Real Definition of GTM (Spoiler: You're Probably Wrong) 12:00 Crystal's Journey to Consulting: From Church to Clients 15:30 Three Lessons for Consultant Success 17:00 The Truth About Free Work and Acts of Service 19:00 How Crystal Balances It All: Pomodoro Method & One TV 23:00 Living by the Calendar: The Secret to Work-Life Balance 26:00 Negotiation Masterclass: Treat Yourself Like Product Pricing 29:00 Why 90% of Company Data is Garbage 31:00 The ROI Question: How to Handle It Like a Pro 33:00 Automatic Client Red Flags 36:00 Fixing Broken Data Without Doing It Yourself 40:00 Building Confidence: Stop Competing With Others 44:00 The Power of Kindness in Business 47:00 Why Every PMM Needs Sales Training 48:50 Happiness is a Choice: Crystal's Final Wisdom Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

December 18, 202553 min

No salary is worth your soul with Hattie the PMM

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth. More from this convo... From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll" How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoice The strategic visibility system that changes everything Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming How to extract value from companies that don't value you Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy 03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders 04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act 05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days 06:00 Corporate America Reality Check 07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying 08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers 09:00 The Crying on Calls Era 11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist 13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon 15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed 17:00 The Strategic Visibility System 19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 21:00 Worst Career Advice 23:00 Budget Allocation Debates 25:00 Personal Branding Strategy 27:00 AI Impact on PMM 29:00 The Newsletter Game 31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks 33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More 35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You 37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time 39:00 The April Dunford Model 41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps 43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy 45:00 Deep Coaching Approach 47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough 49:00 The Workout Analogy 50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs 51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology 52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge 53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattie Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

December 11, 202552 min

Why Product Marketing only lives (and dies) in B2B tech with Garrett Jestice

Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you. More from this convo... Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) • The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn • How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant • Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem • The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing • How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance • The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise • The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) • Why more ads won't fix your broken positioning Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest 01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition 03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills 04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers 04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives 05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling 06:00 The Minneapolis Connection 07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros" 09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing 11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide 13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM 15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders 17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding 19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories 23:00 Budget Allocation Debates 25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion 27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs 29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance 31:00 SEO in the AI Age 33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS 35:00 Founding Prelude Agency 37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus 39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM 41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It 43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue) 45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue 47:00 Small Wins Strategy 49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix 50:00 Channels vs. Foundations 51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally 52:00 Closing & Where to Find Garrett Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

December 4, 202555 min

Are you the Sales B*tch or the trusted PMM? w/ Drew Giovannoli

Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar? Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis. In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads. More on what we cover... • Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys" • The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it) • How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency • Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead) • The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses • Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems • Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second • The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients • How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant • The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship • Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

November 20, 202546 min

How curiosity didn't kill the cat w/ Amanda Groves

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling. What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everything Timestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey 01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years 02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory 04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM 05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads 06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy 07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy 09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling 11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path 13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM 15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun" 17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building 19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness 21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets 23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins 24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received 26:00 Budget Allocation Debates 28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem 30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion 32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends 34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline 37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise 39:00Disagree and Commit Principle Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.