Thesis Driven Leader Series

Hosted by Brad Hargreaves, Editor at Thesis Driven

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Jun 2025

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About the show

At Thesis Driven, we research and write about trends in the built world. Join Thesis Driven founder Brad Hargreaves as he interviews the leading voices at the intersection of real estate, cities, innovation and technology. Guests include innovators like Zillow founder Spencer Rascoff, the renowned East Coast developer MaryAnne Gilmartin, AOL founder and real estate visionary Steve Case and many more top change makers in real estate. Check out our newsletter at https://www.thesisdriven.com/ . “Thesis Driven is the best source for substantive insight into innovative GP strategies, data-driven real estate investing, and the lesser-known stuff that makes real estate go. ” - Moses Sternstein, Random Walk “If you like it here in the Asphalt Jungle, you'll like what Brad Hargreaves is doing over at Thesis Driven.” - Eric Weatherholtz, Asphalt Jungle “Emerging real estate development trends” - Fed Novikov, Really Good Buildings

Listen to episodes

24 recent

June 15, 202536 min

Retail as Remedy: Jodie McLean on Solving Loneliness Through Community-Centered Development

Jodie McLean is the CEO of EDENS, one of the largest and most influential private retail real estate owners and developers in the U.S., with a $6.6 billion portfolio spanning over 100 open-air centers. A 30-year industry veteran and pioneer of community-focused development, McLean has redefined retail not as a commodity transaction but as a human experience. At the helm of EDENS, she’s driven a bold thesis: combat isolation by designing emotionally resonant, walkable centers that serve as the modern public square.In this conversation, McLean shares how she’s positioning retail as a critical social infrastructure, discusses the data behind dwell time and emotional attachment, and explores how human connection—not just tech innovation—will define the future of the built environment. We also explore EDENS' approach to leasing, design, KPIs, and how retail can be both high-performing and deeply human.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

June 8, 202527 min

Sue Yannaccone on the Future of Brokerage, MLS Disruption, and Why Agents Aren’t Going Anywhere

Sue Yannaccone is the President & CEO of Anywhere Brands, the residential real estate powerhouse behind Coldwell Banker, Sotheby’s International Realty, Century 21, Corcoran, and Better Homes and Gardens. With over 350,000 agents in its network, Anywhere is the largest brokerage platform in the U.S.—giving Yannaccone a front-row seat to the biggest shifts reshaping housing.In this episode, Brad Hargreaves sits down with Sue to unpack the post–NAR settlement landscape, the future of buyer-side commissions, and why Clear Cooperation is under fire. They explore how agents are adapting, the realistic role of AI in residential transactions, and the operational challenges of managing tech adoption across a sprawling franchise network. Sue also shares her long-term bet: that streamlined, integrated transactions—not bots—will define the next chapter of real estate.For anyone navigating the messy convergence of policy, tech, and consumer trust in residential brokerage, this is essential listening.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral.Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

June 1, 202540 min

Elise AI's Minna Song on Building the Artificial Intelligence OS for Housing—and Why Leasing Is Just the Start

Minna Song is the co-founder and CEO of EliseAI, a company using advanced natural language processing to automate communication across the multifamily industry—and beyond. Originally launched as MeetElise, the company powers AI leasing agents for over 350 customers, including 70% of the 50 largest rental housing operators in the U.S., but Song’s vision goes far beyond leasing.In this episode, she sits down with Brad Hargreaves to unpack the evolution of EliseAI, from a chatbot into an enterprise-grade operating system for housing. They talk about the gap between software teams and site teams, how operators misjudge AI timelines, and what it really takes to earn the trust of institutional clients. Song also shares her thoughts on VC fundraising, breaking into healthcare, and why she thinks real estate is finally waking up to first-principles product design.If you care about the future of operations, automation, or AI-native infrastructure, this episode is essential listening.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

May 25, 202541 min

Why Amazon, De Niro, and Michelin Chefs All Work With Adam Gordon

Adam Gordon doesn’t build what’s trending—he builds what’s missing. A fourth-generation New Yorker and founder of Wildflower Ltd., Gordon has spent three decades solving real estate puzzles most developers ignore: building Amazon’s first NYC e-commerce warehouse, redefining urban luxury townhouses, and now launching a vertical film studio in Queens with Robert De Niro and Bjarke Ingels.In this episode, Brad Hargreaves talks with Adam about his narrative-first approach to development, the creative patience required to succeed in New York, and why great projects often begin with the question: “What shouldn’t exist—but must?” They cover the future of industrial space, how Wildflower Studios rewrites what a sound stage can be, and why serious developers should spend 25% of their time learning.This one’s for anyone who builds with curiosity—and thinks beyond the blueprint.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral.Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

May 18, 202544 min

CBRE's $800M Office Bet: Industrious' Jamie Hodari on the Future of Work

Jamie Hodari led Industrious through the category’s volatile boom to a landmark $800M acquisition by CBRE—without ever calling it “co-working.” In this episode, Jamie joins Brad to reflect on the real reasons Industrious outlasted and outperformed WeWork and others, how venture capital incentives broke office operators, and why management contracts—not leases—were the quiet revolution.Now serving as CEO of Building Operations & Experience at CBRE, Hodari shares how he’s redefining Class A space, what hybrid tenants really want, and why Disney should be your model for office experience. You’ll also hear why neighborhood locations are outperforming central business districts, what the Yale Club taught him about proximity, and how he’d reposition a struggling Midtown tower today.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

May 11, 202542 min

From Sand Dunes to Smart Growth: Casey Roloff’s Vision for Seabrook and the New American Dream

Casey Roloff is the visionary behind Seabrook, Washington—a purpose-built, walkable town inspired by new urbanist principles and over two decades in the making.In this episode, he shares how low leverage, long-term thinking, and a deep respect for timeless town design helped Seabrook survive market cycles and become a model for a new kind of American development.We also dive into his vision for scaling this movement, his take on car-centric suburbia, and what it will take to make great places accessible to the next generation of homeowners.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

May 4, 202538 min

Inside AvalonBay’s Tech Strategy: Rukus Esi on Building the Multifamily Operating System

What does it take to build a world-class tech strategy inside one of America’s largest multifamily REITs? Rukus Esi, the Chief Digital Officer at AvalonBay Communities and today’s guest, is in the driver’s seat. From centralization and AI to predictive maintenance and PropTech fatigue, Rukus joins us to share how AvalonBay vets new technology, pilots solutions across 90,000+ units, and stays ahead in a rapidly evolving PropTech landscape. If you’re building for—or operating in—multifamily, this is a must-listen about what it takes to deploy and scale technology in real estate. The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support of Neutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

April 27, 202545 min

Building Trust, Raising Capital: Juniper Square's Brandon Sedloff on Winning in Today’s Real Estate Markets

Real estate capital markets are undergoing a tremendous transformation, with tried-and-true strategies no longer offering the opportunities they once did. Today’s guest, Brandon Sedloff, has a unique perspective on the changes afoot. As Chief Real Estate Officer at investment management software platform Juniper Square, Sedloff has a special view of the real estate investment landscape. In today’s episode, he’ll share some of those insights and dig into the changes on the horizon.This episode covers Juniper Square’s journey–where Sedloff was employee #5–as well as the state of the capital markets, evolutions in the investment management world, and advice for real estate sponsors hitting the fundraising trail.Sedloff has a perspective unlike any other, so you won’t want to miss this conversation.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support ofNeutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities atinvest.neutral.us orconnect directly with their team to learn more.

April 20, 202547 min

From Real Estate Developer to Builder of Belonging with Hall Sweeney Properties & the Bright Build's Sean Sweeney

Being a real estate developer can be a lonely business. But one builder is making it a little less so. This episode’s guest, Sean Sweeney, has built an audience by telling the story of life as a developer, warts and all.Co-founder of Hall Sweeney Properties, Sweeney built a reputation as a thoughtful multifamily builder in the Minneapolis area. We’ll discuss his development work and story as well as his efforts to build camaraderie–online and offline–in the real estate community. The episode will also touch on how cities could make better housing policy and the secrets to success as an aspiring real estate developer.Sean Sweeney has a unique way of approaching the real estate development journey, so I’d encourage everyone to check this one out!The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support ofNeutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities at invest.neutral.us or connect directly with their team to learn more.

April 13, 202552 min

Kasa's Roman Pedan on The Future of Multifamily and Flex Rentals

The blending of apartments and hotels has been one of the biggest real estate trends of the past decade. And this episode’s guest, Roman Pedan, co-founder and CEO of Kasa, has had a front row seat.This episode is a wide-ranging conversation covering the future of multifamily, the role and evolution of flex rentals, and technologies on the horizon that have the potential to overturn real estate conventional wisdom.We’ll also discuss how Kasa has navigated the tumultuous post-pandemic years, which have seen a number of flex rental operators struggle and fail, as well as how real estate owners should approach innovation and the capital markets.Roman is one of the most thoughtful real estate entrepreneurs I know, so you won’t want to miss this conversation.The Thesis Driven Leader Series is made possible with the support ofNeutral. Neutral is redefining multifamily real estate with a focus on sustainability, resident health and well-being. For example, Neutral is building the tallest mass timber and Passive House residential building in the U.S with a state-of-art wellness club in Milwaukee. Beyond environmental impact, Neutral offers investors access to substantial sustainable tax credits and deductions. Accredited investors can explore available opportunities atinvest.neutral.us orconnect directly with their team to learn more.

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