The Pudding

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Apr 2026

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About the show

The sweet proof of research to back up what you already know about summer camp. Join Travis Allison and Dr. Mandi Baker as they focus in on prominent and emerging research in the summer camp world and share the ways that camp professionals can leverage that research to get more kids to camp. The Pudding is part of the Go Camp Pro podcast network. Find a Podcast for Camp Pros of every age and stage at https://gocamp.pro/podcasts

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27 recent

April 1, 202639 min

The Science and Art of Transformative Game Design - with Meghan Gardner - The Pudding #24

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/transformativeUsing Intentional Game Design to Change Behavior and Empower StaffIn this episode, Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison sit down with Meghan Gardner, CEO of Guardian Adventures and a pioneer in transformative game design. With over 25 years of experience - ranging from running LARP (Live Action Role Playing) camps to speaking at the UN General Assembly - Meghan shares a repeatable framework for turning standard camp activities into life-changing experiences. The conversation explores how "framing" an experience through invitation, calibration, and debriefing can lead to a sustained change in behavior. Meghan also dives into the concept of "alibi" in role-play, the importance of de-escalation training for staff, and how camp directors can move away from hierarchical power structures to truly empower their counselors and campers.04:09 Belonging and Camp Growth08:36 Defining Transformative Games10:30 Framing and Calibration19:00 Debrief Tools25:37 Power and Empowerment28:09 Roleplay Based Staff Training32:07 Designing Better Scenarios35:34 Apply Training Beyond CampYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proMeghan Gardner, CEO, Guardian AdventuresThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

March 4, 2026Episode 2344 min

An Indigenous Perspective of Doing Good Works at Camp - with Dan Henhawk - The Pudding #23

Full show notes: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/indigenous-perspective-doing-good-worksRelationality, Appropriation, Truth and Reconciliation, and Thanks-giving: Indigenous Perspectives on Summer Camps in North AmericaThis episode of The Pudding features Dr. Dan Henhawk, a Mohawk scholar and assistant professor at the University of Manitoba. Dan speaks to Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison about how camps can engage truth-telling about Indigenous experiences and knowledges. Dan describes his own journey of becoming aware and decolonizing his own thinking about sport in Indigenous communities and embracing notions of relationality. He illustrates how many Indigenous languages are heavily verb-based reflecting the interconnectedness of all beings and how we act in relation to one another. The conversation highlights cultural appropriation in camps (e.g., mock regalia and drumming, and decontextualized canoeing, lacrosse, and outdoor skills) and discusses how camps might engage truth and reconciliation, while cautioning against pan-Indigenous generalizations and romanticism. The podcast concludes by discussing “the thanksgiving address” (Kimmerer, 2013), a practice of expressing gratitude at the beginning of each day for the many resources the land gives - recognising that many camps use similar practices and deserve to give credit to Indigenous knowledge and teachings that have been adopted into summer camp culture.00:24 Meet the Hosts and Dan’s Progression to Research04:11 Contrasting Head Thinks of Indigenous and Settler Knowledge Systems09:54 The Problem of “Pan Indigenous” Generalizations16:38 Identifying Appropriation in Camp Culture25:25 Truth and Reconciliation Actions for Camps31:59 Relationality and Daily Practice36:59 Recognizing Indigeneity in Settler/Colonial Society40:06 Thanksgiving and the Teachings of Corn43:11 Future Directions & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proDan Henhawk - Assistant Professor - University of Manitoba - daniel.henhawk@umanitoba.caAdditional Links of Interest: Braiding Sweetgrass - Books by Robin Wall KimmererThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

February 9, 202631 min

How "Whereabouts" is Solving the Camp Director’s Biggest Headache

Clipboards, Kaizen, and Connection: Revolutionizing Camp Attendance with Ryan Rosen*This is a piece of sponsored content by our friends from Camptivities and Whereabouts. We are so grateful for Ryan and the Camptivities team for their support of many Go Camp Pro podcasts and we're excited to bring you this episode to share more about Whereabouts and it's intentional design - Check them out whereaboutsapp.io*--In this episode, Travis sits down with Ryan Rosen, a 28-year camp veteran and owner of a premier Los Angeles day camp, to discuss the intersection of "tech-free" camp philosophy and high-efficiency logistics. Ryan shares the origin story of Whereabouts, an innovative app designed to bridge the communication gap between parents and camp offices. From the "Spirit of Kaizen" to real-time attendance reconciliation, this conversation explores how small, iterative improvements in camp tech can lead to massive gains in safety, staff sanity, and parent satisfaction.Key Takeaways include:The Spirit of Kaizen: Success isn't always about massive overhauls; it’s about the "incremental improvement" of systems. By questioning why "we’ve always done it this way," directors can identify stagnant procedures - like where T-shirts are handed out or how attendance is taken - and refine them for a better experience.Closing the "Lunchtime Gap": Many camps don't fully reconcile bus lists with group rosters until midday. Ryan explains how real-time widgets allow directors to know exactly who is on-site before the morning assembly even ends, meeting modern parent expectations for safety and transparency.Passive vs. Active Engagement: There is a fine line between "convenient" tech and "isolating" tech. Ryan discusses moving away from passive check-ins (like unattended QR codes) toward "human-powered" technology that prompts staff with camper birthdays or medical alerts during the check-in process.Empowering Gen-Z and Alpha Staff: Modern summer staff are digital natives. Asking them to manage complex paper-and-pen systems often leads to errors. Providing them with intuitive, mobile-first tools like Whereabouts aligns with their skills and reduces operational friction.Tech-Enabled Emergency Safety: Beyond daily attendance, the episode highlights the importance of "Emergency Pods." In the event of a wildfire or evacuation, having a cellular-connected system to track which kids are on which bus in real-time is a critical safety upgrade for any modern camp.---Thanks to Camptivities and Whereabouts for sponsoring!Your mission is campers. Ours is making their experience coordinated and connected.Whereabouts is the only camper management system that keeps Parents, Admin, and Staff in sync in real time - so every camper’s day runs with confidence, clarity, and care. Check them out at whereaboutsapp.io

February 4, 2026Episode 2236 min

Youth as Co-Creators: Shifting Towards Equity and Empowerment - with Alayna Schmidt - The Pudding #22

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/youth-as-co-creatorsEmpowering Youth and Advancing Equity in Summer Camps: Insights from Alayna SchmidtIn this episode, Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison interview Alayna Schmidt, a PhD candidate at Clemson University. Alayna’s research focuses on empowering youth as co-creators in camp settings and integrating justice-centered environmental education. She discusses her journey into research and the significant impact of youth participatory action research. The conversation shifts towards the historical and cultural aspects of summer camps, highlighting the pervasiveness of white supremacy in culture. The podcast shares practical strategies for camp professionals to advance equity without overwhelming staff, including youth engagement in decision-making processes and restorative justice approaches.00:00 Introductions & Alayna’s Pathway to Camp Research03:13 Sneak Peeks of Youth Participatory Action Research05:17 Exploring Black Feminist Theory08:02 Addressing White Supremacy in Camp Culture21:00 Thoughtful Change of Traditions23:13 Practical Steps for Advancing Equity in Camps29:12 How to “Call Someone In” - Using Social Capital32:33 Future Directions & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proAlayna Schmidt, PhD Candidate, Clemson University - alaynas@clemson.edu Additional Links of InterestREYSE CollaboratoryAlayna’s WebsiteToolkit: Racial Healing and Youth DevelopmentThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

January 7, 2026Episode 2142 min

Maslow and Turner’s Take on Transformation from Camp’s “Magic” - with Star Wilkes - The Pudding #21

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/turner-and-maslow-to-transformation-and-magicUnpacking the Transformative Power of Summer Camps for StaffIn this episode, Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison interview Star Wilkes, Lecturer in Special Education, Disability, and Inclusion Studies at the University of Wolverhampton. Star shares her journey from working at a special needs camp in America to becoming a researcher and university lecturer in the UK. She explains her research based on sending her students to work for an American camp. Drawing on surveys, weekly journal entries and interviews, Star explores the links between liminal communities (Turner) and “peak experiences” (Maslow). Star reflects on the importance of reflective practices and mentoring cultures in enhancing the camp experience for staff and campers alike. The episode concludes on Star's future plans to publish her findings and explore the recipe for “camp magic” further.00:19 Meet the Hosts and Star’s Journey to Camp Research08:51 Star’s Study on Camp Staff Diaries11:15 Unpacking the Concept of Liminality (Turner)22:01 Durkheim’s “Collective Effervescence”24:59 Maslow’s “Peak Experiences”29:39 Star’s Students at Camp & Further Research Goals35:53 Key Weeks with Shared Experiences37:12 Future Directions & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proStar Wilkes, Lecturer in Special Educational Needs, Disability and Inclusion Studies, University of Wolverhampton - S.Wilkes2@wlv.ac.ukThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

December 3, 2025Episode 2038 min

Transforming Leadership Beyond the Binary - with Dr. Kiah DeVona - The Pudding #20

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/leadership-beyond-the-binaryInsights on Gender Stereotypes and Expanding Leadership Styles in CampsIn this episode of The Pudding, hosts Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison interview Dr. Kiah DeVona, a recent PhD graduate from the University of Connecticut. Kiah discusses her research on gender and leadership in camp settings, notably focusing on how camps can support women and non-binary individuals in leadership roles and the impact of gender stereotypes on leaders in day camps. The team also explores the broader implications of leadership structures and the importance of fostering an inclusive and supportive environment for all genders in camp leadership.00:00 Meet the Hosts & Kiah’s Path to Camp Research02:35 Exploring Gender Stereotypes and Leadership in Camps09:26 The Importance of Traditionally “Feminine” Leadership Skills15:24 Promoting Inclusive Leadership at Camps21:22 Shifting Thinking Around Leadership Styles27:18 Communicating Safety & Care Over Fun to Parents30:57 Encouraging Women and Non-Binary Leaders32:29 Future Directions & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proDr. Kiah DeVona, Adjunct Faculty, UConn Neag School of Education - kiah.devona@uconn.eduAdditional Links of InterestKiah DeVona on Google ScholarThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

November 5, 2025Episode 1947 min

Sensory Journeys and Freedom in Play - with Neil Carr - The Pudding #19

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/sensory-journeys-freedom-in-playExploring Inclusivity in Outdoor Leisure with Neil CarrIn this episode of The Pudding, Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison discuss with Prof. Neil Carr, from the Dept of Tourism at the University of Otago (New Zealand), the role of inclusivity in outdoor leisure. They explore Neil's journey into academia, his research on tourism and leisure, and the evolution of outdoor leisure studies. Key highlights include the importance of sensory engagement in leisure, traditional structures of camps, and the need to allow children freedom and control in their play. They discuss Mandi and Neil’s latest book collaboration on inclusion and equity in outdoor leisure that features a diverse range of voices and perspectives.00:24 Meet the Hosts and Neil’s Journey in Academia04:25 Philosophical Differences of Tourism vs. Leisure12:03 Neil’s Inspiration for Sensory Experiences in Leisure14:41 Integrating All Senses for an Inclusive Experience19:54 Who is Camp Really For?26:22 The Transformative Power of Novelty32:01 Inclusion and Equity in Outdoor Leisure36:16 Beyond Human Beings: Interactions with Nature40:05 Structure vs. Play in Shaping Society of Tomorrow45:04 Episode Wrap-UpYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proNeil Carr - Professor, Department of Tourism, University of Otago - neil.carr@otago.ac.nzAdditional Links of InterestNeil Carr on Google ScholarInclusion and Equity in Outdoor Leisure: Whose Body Belongs?Thanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

October 2, 2025Episode 1838 min

Communities of Campfires and Kickball - with Dr. Mary Breunig - The Pudding #18

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/communities-of-campfires-and-kickballExploring Camp Experiences, Neoliberalism, and Hidden Curriculum with Dr. Mary BreunigIn this episode of The Pudding, hosts Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison talk to Dr. Mary Breunig, an associate professor in the Department of Recreation, Parks, and Tourism Administration. Dr. Breunig shares her journey from flute performance to outdoor education to kickball den mother, emphasizing the transformative power of camp experiences. The conversation covers topics such as the significance of camp in personal development, the differences between guiding and educating, and the importance of diverse recruitment in camp staff. Dr. Breunig also discusses her research interests, including neoliberalism in education and leisure as the center of community. The episode concludes with insights into social justice education and the impact of outdoor education on both students and staff.00:19 Meet the Hosts and Dr. Breunig’s Journey07:04 Current Research and Interests10:05 Kickball as Community and Introduction to Neoliberalism15:31 Teaching Social Justice to Disenfranchised Students19:39 Putnam's Theory on the Decline of Community22:15 Outdoor Education in the DNA of Camp24:23 Holding a Non-profit Ethos in a For-profit Business26:05 Case Study: Extroversion and Introversion in Camp Staff32:14 Future Plans and Reflections34:09 Recommended Researchers to Follow & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proDr. Mary Breunig - Associate Professor, Department of Recreation, Park & Tourism Administration - CSU-Sacramento - mary.breunig@csus.eduAdditional Links of InterestDr. Mary Breunig on Google ScholarThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

April 2, 2025Episode 1747 min

Camp as a Sacred Playground: Research in Faith-Based Camps - with Dr. Jake Sorenson - The Pudding #17

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/camp-as-a-sacred-playgroundCreating Safe Spaces to Explore Faith & IdentityIn this episode of The Pudding, hosts Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison speak with Jake Sorenson, founder and director of Sacred Playgrounds, to explore the impacts of Christian summer camps. Jake, a seasoned expert with over 20 years of experience, explains how Sacred Playgrounds uses data to tell compelling stories and improve camp and youth ministries. The conversation delves into the five fundamental characteristics of effective Christian faith-based camps: being unplugged from home; participatory; relational; a safe space; and faith-centred. For camps that are not faith-based, what is that alternative fifth pillar of effectiveness? Jake discusses the importance of creating environments where campers feel safe to explore big questions about faith and identity. Jake, also, emphasizes the need for continuous improvement in camp practices. Episode Guide00:41 Meet the Hosts and Jake’s Sacred Playgrounds02:52 The Concept of Ministry in Camps06:42 Jake's Personal Journey and Research Focus09:39 Key Characteristics of Christian Summer Camps16:16 Fostering Intentional Camp Experiences & Reimagining Camp Traditions26:16 Creating Safe Spaces in Faith-Based Camps30:50 The Power and Vulnerability of Camp Leadership38:45 Metrics of Success in Camping45:19 Recommended Researchers to Follow & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proDr. Jake Sorenson, Founder, Sacred Playgrounds - jake@sacredplaygrounds.comThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.

March 5, 2025Episode 1659 min

Decoding How Camp Helps Kids Find Themselves - with Dr. Barry Garst - The Pudding #16

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/the-pudding/decoding-how-camp-helps-kids-find-themselvesHearing Youth Voices in Camp Research with Dr. Barry GarstIn this episode of 'The Pudding', hosts Dr. Mandi Baker and Travis Allison delve into the work of Dr. Barry Garst, a Professor at Clemson University in Youth Development Programs. Dr. Garst shares his journey into camp research, discussing his background and various projects that analyze the transformative impact of camp on youth development. The discussion also explores the importance of digital empathy for connecting campers and staff. Dr. Garst also highlights the Journal of Youth Development's role in bridging research and practice in youth development and offers insights on key issues that need more attention in camp studies. Episode Guide00:56 Meet Dr. Barry Garst: Youth Development Expert04:02 Exploring the Identity Ladder of Social Learning09:09 Camp’s Impact Long-Term & Emerging Issues in Research16:58 Digital Empathy and the MyView Tool22:21 Data Collection and Analysis Challenges31:57 Researcher Parents’ Perspective on Camper Data Collection45:41 The Journal of Youth Development51:29 Recommended Researchers to Follow & Episode Wrap-upYour HostsDr. Mandi Baker, Researcher - Summer Camp, Outdoor Recreation, Sociology and Hospitality/Tourism - getlamped@gmail.comTravis Allison, Summer Camp Consultant - Go Camp Pro - travis@gocamp.proDr. Barry Garst, Professor & Coordinator - Clemson University - bgarst@clemson.eduAdditional Links of InterestDept of Parks, Recreation and Tourism at Clemson University https://www.clemson.edu/cbshs/departments/prtm/index.htmlJournal of Youth Development https://jyd.pitt.edu/ojs/jydAlliances for Camp Health https://allianceforcamphealth.org/American Camps Association- Research Evaluation Advisory Council https://www.acacamps.org/research/help-camp-research/research-evaluation-advisory-committeeThanks to our sponsors!The American Camp Association - IllinoisThe American Camp Association of Illinois is made up of nearly 289,000 members, volunteers, campers, families, and professionals who believe in the power of camp. We work to disrupt the effects of poverty by providing fundamental services for children and families, and learning opportunities for camp professionals. Learn more about ACA Illinois by visiting acail.org.CamptivitiesYou know the impact you want camp to make in a child’s life. But figuring out the day-to-day details can be overwhelming. Let Camptivities help you make that impact by streamlining the creation of your camp activity schedules. Schedule a demo at camptivities.com.