The Power of Music Thinking

Hosted by Christof Zürn

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Jun 2026

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About the show

The podcast for people with a musical heart and a wicked job. How can the dynamics of music help you navigate today’s complex business world? Host Christof Zürn explores how musical concepts like listening, tuning, rhythm, and improvisation directly translate into powerful, actionable tools for business strategy, creativity, and leadership. In each episode, we sit down with exceptional polymaths – global thought leaders, designers, entrepreneurs, and scientists who also happen to be musicians. You will walk away with practical frameworks to improve team collaboration, spark innovation, and lead more effectively. Learn how to truly listen to your organisation, find your team’s cadence, and embrace improvisation in the face of uncertainty. Whether you are managing a boardroom or leading a creative team, discover how to move from metaphor to mechanics and orchestrate your business. As one listener commented: “Wonderful, unique insight into how the world of music is the world of everything!”

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60 recent

June 15, 2026Episode 731 hr 7 min

Intrinsic Motivation in Science and Music with Ralph Meulenbroek

Intrinsic motivation, leadership, and extreme performance are at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between leading academic scientists and playing historical string instruments - featuring expert research, unique mindsets, and the intense discipline you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path. Meet the Guest: Ralph Meulenbroeks has lived a fascinating, multitrack life. He started his career in physical engineering, researching large-scale solar cells, before pivoting to become a full-time, professional bass and viola da gamba player for ten years - recording 15 albums, winning an Edison award, and touring the world. Today, he is a full professor of scientific literacy and chairs the Freudenthal Institute at Utrecht University, where he leads 120 highly autonomous academics. Yet, every single morning, his day still starts with meditation and playing his instrument. Key Insights from the Episode The Pressure of the Passion: Discover the unique qualities of the viola da gamba - a historical, fretted relative of the lute family with six or seven strings - and what it feels like to endure the immense psychological pressure of playing the highly exposed solos in Bach's St. Matthew Passion. Tuning In under Pressure: How the intense process of silently tuning highly sensitive gut strings during a 45-minute wait in the St. Matthew Passion translates directly to 'tuning in' to the emotional temperature of a team of academics at the start of a meeting. Redefining Intrinsic Motivation: Why almost everyone misinterprets this term. Ralph explains that true intrinsic motivation means the activity is its own reward - not a means to an end - and why it is an incredibly robust predictor of high performance in teams. Ensemble Forgiveness: Why the ultimate leadership tool is behaving like a classical or free jazz ensemble. When a mistake happens, you cannot point fingers; you must instantly forgive, adapt, and restore the balance together so the audience never notices. The 'No Excuses' Mindset: Why playing a difficult instrument forces a high degree of self-reflection. If a wrong note happens, it is almost always the player and rarely the instrument's fault - a humbling lesson every leader needs to embrace. The Macrobiotic Chord: How a 35-year practice of macrobiotic cooking and balancing Yin and Yang perfectly mirrors the tension and relaxation required to create musical, but also business harmony. Show notes: Connect with Ralph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphrousseau/ St. Matthew Passion Excerpt (Komm, süßes Kreuz): https://youtu.be/WvHTBBLXa-g?si=HIv_K-6ZxzMGt50u Podium Klassiek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzWjGyjIAQ8 The Jazz of Physics by Stephon Alexander: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/26195938-the-jazz-of-physics Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/ More info and downloads on Music Thinking: https://musicthinking.com

May 18, 2026Episode 7217 min

Take Five: Highlights from Five Years of the Music Thinking Podcast

We are celebrating a major milestone! Exactly five years ago, on the 19th of May, The Power of Music Thinking podcast was launched. To mark the occasion, host Christof Zürn revisits the archives to share hidden gems, profound insights, and incredible sonic journeys from the past five years. Based on neurobiologist Nina Kraus's insight that "we can ultimately hear only what we already know," this special episode is designed to expand what you know by connecting the worlds of music, leadership, and space. What We Cover in This Episode: The 4 Big Themes for Modern Leaders: We dive into 20 essential leadership questions broken down into four key areas: Leadership Style & Organisational Structure (featuring the conductorless Orpheus Chamber Orchestra) Innovation, Agility & Strategy (tackling AI with Dr. Maya Ackerman) Culture, Communication & Empathy (practising active listening with Steve Keller) The Leader as an Individual: Development & Wellbeing ("mind DJing" with Jeena Earthiva) Sonic Travels & Spaces: We step outside organizational strategy to explore how sound shapes our physical world. Discover the "spatiosonics" of the Sagrada Familia with Emma-Kate Matthews, look inside instruments with Charles Brooks, cross cultural boundaries in Japan, and experience field recordings from Germany to Venice. Featured Guest Snippets: Harvey Seifter on leadership without a conductor. Dr. Maya Ackerman on navigating generative AI. Steve Keller on the power of strategic silence. Jeena Earthiva on shifting your mindset under pressure. Resources & Links: The Complete 20 Questions Guide: Read the comprehensive guide with all the links and show notes from this archive deep-dive at musicthinking.com. Try the Music Thinking Search: Scroll down to the footer on any page of the website and type in a keyword like Japan, AI, Architecture, Orchestration, or Deep Listening to get a curated mix of episodes, articles, and downloads. Join the Community: Want to ask questions and discuss these 20 leadership themes with other music thinkers? Subscribe for free to the Music Thinking Substack. Thank you for five incredible years of listening, and remember to listen to the spaces in between! #leadership #musicthinking #personal #development #organisational #change

April 13, 2026Episode 711 hr 14 min

Resonant Bodies with Emma Kate Matthews

Spatiosonic practice is the groundbreaking field at the heart of this episode. Christof Zürn sits down with architect and composer Emma‑Kate Matthews to explore the profound links between the act of making space and the act of making sound. In this episode, you will hear: Audio Landmarks: The 12-second reverb of the Sagrada Família versus a dry anechoic chamber. Resonant Bodies: Emma‑Kate’s self-made, 3D-printed experimental instruments. Aural Diversity: Why "reading the air" requires acknowledging that we all hear the world differently. Key Topics: Why architecture is an active collaborator, not a passive host. Translating technical acoustic language into intuitive community terms. The creative value of "not knowing" and letting experiments talk back to you. About the Guest: Emma‑Kate Matthews is an architect, composer, and educator. She is the co-editor of the Routledge Companion to Sound and Space and explores the intersection of sonic and spatial practices. Links and Resources: Website Emma-Kate Matthews: https://www.ekmworks.com/ The Routledge Companion to the Sound of Space: https://www.soundingfuture.com/en/article/reflections-routledge-companion-sound-space Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/ Full Episode Page: https://musicthinking.com

March 23, 2026Episode 7054 min

Soil Ecoacoustics - Listening to the Underground with Alex F Taylor

Soil ecoacoustics is the groundbreaking scientific field at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between music and scientific work – featuring the seminal papers, scientific research, and unique habits you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path. Meet the Guest: Alex Flynn Taylor is a Research Assistant at Flinders University with the Frontiers of Restoration Ecology team. While he is the bass and guitar player for the indie-rock band Stormy-Lou, his pioneering scientific work involves sticking aluminium probes and contact microphones into the earth to listen to the hidden vibrations of our ecosystems. The Hidden Sounds of the Underground In this rare sensory experience, you can hear the frantic activity of ants, the literal "stickiness" of a gum snout moth caterpillar’s crawl, and the stark audible difference between "low-life" and healthy, biodiverse soil. Key Insights from the Episode Nature as a 'Mix': Why Alex’s musical brain views the environment not as isolated data points, but as a complete, interconnected soundscape where even cargo trains are part of the "composition". Underground Harmony: Exploring the frequency harmony of nature and how active listening changes our scientific approach to restoration. Science and Wisdom: The intersection of Western scientific research and First Nations wisdom in understanding our complex ecosystems. The Power of Listening: Why the ability to "read the air" – and the earth – is a foundational tool for both the laboratory and the stage. Show notes Connect with Alex: https://bsky.app/profile/alexftaylor.bsky.social Hums in the Humus (paper): https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(25)00357-X More on https://musicthinking.com

February 22, 2026Episode 691 hr 1 min

Beethoven and AI Agents with Matthias Röder

Matthias is an internationally recognised expert at the intersection of creativity, leadership, and artificial intelligence. He was the Director of the Karajan Institute and led the team that used AI to complete Beethoven’s 10th Symphony. He is also a trained Classical Guitarist, Musicologist, Musictech Visionary, Founder, and Angel Investor. We discuss why he believes AI is actually 'email autocomplete' for music, why we should view it as a 'living archive' rather than a replacement, and why leaving behind the concept of 'right and wrong' is the ultimate freedom. Show Notes Connect with Matthias on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthiasroder/ Website: http://www.matthiasroder.com Related podcasts: Orchestrating Innovation and AI for your business Challenging the AI Oracle: Maya Ackerman on Music, Creativity, and Collaboration Why modern leaders need to stop conducting and start synthesising

January 13, 2026Episode 6834 min

Walking with a Shakuhachi Priest - music thinking in action

In many episodes, we discuss the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage, often focusing on clear insights and structured conversations about leadership and innovation. Today is different. We step out of the studio and into the heat of Nara, Japan, for a "soundwalk" with Jonen, a 'shakuhachi priest' and former Komuso monk. Jonen’s practice isn’t about silence; it’s about engagement. In this immersive field recording, we explore the Japanese concept of "reading the air" (Kuuki wo yomu) and the practice of "meditation in the midst." He demonstrates that playing the bamboo flute is not about performing for an audience, but about harmonising with the environment — regardless of what that environment contains. In our conversation today, the soundscape is as much a guest as Jonen is. You will hear the raw, unfiltered interaction between the shakuhachi and the world around it: from the hypnotic drone of cicadas and the rhythm of cleaning crews to the jarring intrusion of election loudspeakers. This is listening as active participation. It is an experiment in presence, adaptability, and finding contentment in the "zero state." Show notes Jonen's book on Amazon: Komuso Outlaw: The Writings of an American Renegade Priest in Japan Conversation with my teacher: The Sound of Nature with Hélène Seiyu Codjo More on Japan: Sound Strategies and how things go together And if you are listening as a leader and want the 'gist' of these insights — the strategic bridge between the boardroom and the stage — to support your own company, let’s talk. Whether it’s a facilitation session or acting as a sounding board for your leadership team, you can reach me directly via LinkedIn

December 8, 2025Episode 671 hr 2 min

Audio investigation for human rights with Fabio Cervi

In many episodes, we talk about how sound and listening can make a difference for good. We’ve explored themes like sound healing, music psychology, and deep listening—all ways sound and music thinking can be a force for good. Today is somewhat different. We speak with Fabio Cervi, an audio investigator for Earshot, a non-profit audio investigation organisation that works on the front lines of human rights and environmental advocacy. Fabio’s work isn't just about listening; it's about finding evidence. He uses sound to tell the stories of communities affected by violence. In our conversation today, Fabio shares sound files from two astonishing cases. First, we’ll hear and deconstruct the evidence from an attack on a silent vigil in Serbia, involving a mysterious sound that people felt rather than heard, and a potential sonic weapon known as an LRAD. Then, we move to the occupied Syrian Golan Heights to explore Zifzafa, a protest video game that uses real-world field recordings to fight against an illegal massive wind turbine project. This is audio as ballistics, as evidence, and as advocacy. It’s a truly fascinating look at how sound can be used in the fight for justice. Show notes Connect with Fabio via Instagram: @fabioclaudioc Earshot - audio investigations for communities affected by corporate, state, and environmental injustice: https://earshot.ngo Connect with earshot on Instagram: @earshot.ngo and Twitter: @earshot_ngo Related podcasts Sonic UX research with Caitlyn Trevor Deep listening with Sharon Stewart Health care, Sound healing and mantras

November 17, 2025Episode 6621 min

Orchestrating Innovation and AI for your business

The word 'orchestration' is everywhere in business right now—we see 'innovation orchestrator,' 'data orchestrator.', ‘Change orchestrator’. It’s become a strategic buzzword and many are using it, just search for the term on LinkedIn. I’ve mentioned my research on this topic before, and I’m thrilled to share that the full peer-reviewed paper—which I co-authored and presented at the RSD14 Relating Systems Thinking and Design conference—is now available. You can find the link in the show notes. But to bring this idea to life, I wanted to try an experiment. I used AI, specifically NotebookLM, to take the core concepts from our paper and turn them into a conversation, as if it were a podcast itself. So, what you’re about to hear is a 16-minute audio piece, created by AI, that explores what a musical orchestrator actually does, and how this music thinking relates to business, all based on our research. It's a fun experiment, and I think it's the perfect introduction to why this concept is so critical for leadership today. Let’s listen. Show notes Read the abstract and download the full paper: The Analogy of Orchestration in systemic Co-design https://musicthinking.com/the-analogy-of-orchestration-in-systemic-co-design/ Podcast episode: Everything about Orchestration with Robin Hoffmann: https://musicthinking.com/everything-about-orchestration-with-robin-hoffmann/ If you're interested in taking this conversation from the podcast into your organisation, visit musicthinking.com to learn about my leadership facilitation and sounding board sessions. Or, if you have a specific question, reach out to me via email at christof-at-musicthinking-dot-com.

November 3, 2025Episode 6551 min

Marketing & Singing with Jessica Wan

One of the great myths of a modern career is that you have to choose just one path. My guest today, Jessica Wan, is living proof that you absolutely don’t. Her career has taken her from leading marketing teams at world-renowned organisations like Apple and the San Francisco Opera, to becoming a sought-after executive coach. And running parallel to all of this, she is a classically trained singer preparing for her next recital. She champions a philosophy she calls 'The Ampersand Manifesto', which celebrates people who connect multiple passions and professions. It's a really inspiring chat about embracing all parts of who you are. And as a special treat, you will also hear a sneak peek at the end of the conversation from Jessica's recital. She sings a song together with the audience that was popular everywhere in Taiwan in the 80s and 90s called 月亮代表我的心 – The Moon Represents My Heart. So, let's dive into the conversation. Show notes Connect with Jessica: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicamwan/ Jessica Wan, Executive & Leadership Coach: https://www.jessicawan.com The Ampersand Manifesto podcast: https://www.theampersandmanifesto.com/ You like this? Consider buying me a coffee: https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking and don't forget to visit https://musicthinking.com for more fun, free downloads, book, and workshops.

October 13, 2025Episode 6450 min

Sonic UX research with Caitlyn Trevor - The Power of Music Thinking

Could smart sound design actually make calling a hospital a less stressful experience? And what if the sound of a cello could be scientifically mapped to our emotions? These are just some of the questions we’ll be exploring today with our guest, Caitlyn Trevor. Caitlyn holds a PhD in Music Theory, a Master’s in Cello Performance, and is an award-winning film score composer. As a researcher and UX professional, her work sits at that fascinating intersection of performance, science, and user experience. In our chat, we trace Caitlyn’s journey from discovering the Lord of the Rings soundtrack to conducting neuroscience research in Switzerland. We’ll get into the specifics of how playing music acts as a full-body exercise for the brain, and why she’s applying that knowledge to improve everyday sonic experiences. We also discuss her fantastic LinkedIn series, "Sound Effects," which shows how sound can drive behaviour change. For example, one post reveals how adding a simple warning sound to an e-scooter can cut the number of times it goes unnoticed by pedestrians from a staggering 97% down to just 3%. It's a wonderful conversation packed with insight. Show notes Connect with Caitlyn via LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caitlyn-trevor/ The Sound Effect series on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/sonicuxr Video Music in the tunnel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Irk1leLxfk What is Music Cognition, video by David Heron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R76p5B9nyPk Show support If this podcast has sparked an idea, offered a new perspective, or provided a tool you’ve found useful. Please consider to support Music Thinking on Ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/musicthinking