The Persuasion Occasion

Hosted by Perkins Coie LLP

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Jun 2026

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About the show

Welcome to the Persuasion Occasion. Hosted by Perkins Coie Consumer Products and Services litigators David Biderman and Jasmine Wetherell, each episode features a conversation with noted professionals about achieving success in disputes and negotiations. The discussions are not limited to the legal realm, as success demands incorporating teachings from a breadth of perspectives. David, a baby boomer, and Jasmine, a millennial, enhance the discussions with their multigenerational perspectives. Episode guests include negotiators and behavioral scientists. They provide practical advice, real world examples, and thoughtful strategies for surmounting the inevitable hurdles encountered in the worlds of litigation, business, and life. At the end of the day, isn’t life a series of disputes and negotiations? Legal professionals, industry leaders, or simply those with curious minds are invited to join David and Jasmine in these explorations.

Listen to episodes

30 recent

June 4, 20261 hr 19 min

Emotional Rescue: Max Bevilacqua and the Power of Human Connections in Negotiations

David and Jasmine discuss the emotions of negotiating with Max Bevilacqua, founder and chief negotiating officer of Mindful Negotiating, a consulting and training firm for high-powered leaders. Max has trained Fortune 100 executives, U.S. Army Special Forces, and legal professionals, and he has taught negotiation at Harvard Law School and the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy. He brings a highly relational and human-centered perspective to persuasion and advocacy. Max shows how influence often comes through listening, curiosity, emotional awareness, and the ability to de-escalate tension. He describes how successful negotiators are not simply skilled arguers but people who understand how emotions, identity, trust, and human connection influence outcomes.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

April 7, 202652 min

Gitane De Silva | Negotiating Trade Agreements

David and Jasmine speak with Gitane De Silva, formerly Alberta’s senior representative to the United States and CEO of the Canada Energy Regulator, with deep experience in international negotiations and Canada–U.S. relations. Gitane describes how international diplomatic negotiations are unique but also how the techniques and strategies share many similarities with legal and business negotiations. The conversation breaks down how complex negotiations work, from trade agreements to energy policy, and the level of precision, patience, and stakeholder alignment required. It also explores the shift toward more protectionist, country-first strategies and how that is changing global dealmaking.A core theme is that successful negotiation comes down to trust, emotional control, and understanding the other side’s motivations. Practical techniques are shared for staying composed, avoiding escalation, and finding common ground in difficult conversations. The episode also highlights how cultural differences influence negotiation styles and why adapting language and perspective is key to influencing outcomes. At its core, persuasion is human, and those who can connect, listen, and stay grounded tend to achieve better results.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

March 10, 20261 hr 7 min

Andy Prisco | Founder of Jumpstart Mastery | De-Escalation, Self-Regulation, and What Really Works When Emotions Run Hot

David and Jasmine speak with Andy Prisco, a nationally recognized expert in anger, aggression, and violence response who founded Jumpstart Mastery. Andy trains law enforcement, mental health professionals, firefighters, and others in dealing with difficult and dangerous personalities. He shares how years working in psychosocial rehab shaped his practical approach to crisis intervention and what actually works when emotions spike fast. He outlines his structured method, VDSP: Validate, Defer, Suggest, Prompt, explaining why real de-escalation relies on simple, sequential steps.Andy shows how deliberately “starting with V” helps you regulate your own reaction while lowering the other person’s defensiveness. His agreement-first phrasing (“It sounds like…” or “I hear you…”) opens space to reframe the issue and steer someone toward safer behavior with concise suggestions and clear prompts.Andy applies these ideas to litigation, where aggressive opposing counsel and discovery fights can easily trigger anger. He breaks down how outrage disrupts judgment, why self-regulation is built through repetition, and how leading with validation often produces steadier interactions and better outcomes.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

February 24, 20261 hr 0 min

Ken Lopez of Persuadius Explains What Actually Persuades a Jury

David and Jasmine sit down with Ken Lopez, founder of Persuadius and a veteran litigation consultant known for blending law, psychology, and visual communication. Ken shares how a dislike of law school and an early obsession with computer animation led him to create trial graphics in the mid-1990s, eventually building A2L Consulting and later launching Persuadius to continue that work with a deeper focus on storytelling. Ken outlines what actually persuades in court: simple narratives, clear themes, and stories shaped around a hero’s journey rather than a strict timeline. He explains why fear-based arguments often overpower logic, how the “reptile” strategy works on both sides of the bar, and why bullet-heavy slides undermine comprehension. The conversation wraps with Ken’s take on AI, evolving juror expectations, and why speed, clarity, and strong visuals will matter even more in the years ahead.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

December 9, 20251 hr 4 min

Persuasion, Mediation, and the Story Behind Tim Reuben’s Book Tequila

Trial lawyer, mediator, and novelist Tim Reuben joins us to talk about persuasion, conflict, and the real-world experience behind his new legal thriller, Tequila. Tim has spent 40+ years in California courts as a civil litigator, mediator, arbitrator, and temporary judge. His experience gives him a clear, practical view of how people behave in high-pressure disputes.Much of our conversation centers on Tequila: a story of a powerful Mexican family, cartel violence, corporate tension, and the moral choices that drive people forward or break them apart. Tim explains how years of legal work shaped the book’s characters and dynamics, why he built a protagonist readers can root for, and how travel and research brought the settings to life.We also touch on how he carved out time to write, why he prefers virtual mediation, and what lawyers often misunderstand about preparing for negotiation versus preparing for court.Connect with Tim Reuben:Tim Reubens WebsiteTequila: A Story of Success, Love & Violencehttps://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

November 25, 20251 hr 3 min

How To Negotiate, Persuade and Communicate Without Pressure ft. Tony Perzow

Negotiation expert and keynote speaker Tony Perzow joins us to examine why most persuasion relies on fear, and how shifting to what he calls “magnetism” changes everything. Drawing from decades, training teams at Apple, Red Bull, and Rolls-Royce, Tony shows how standard tactics often fuel scarcity and ego instead of connection. He also shares the personal collapse that reshaped his work, losing nearly everything and rebuilding with a new approach.We look at the mindset behind effective negotiation, why fear drives so much behavior, and how it shows up at work and at home. Tony argues that influence doesn’t come from pushing, but from becoming someone others naturally want to agree with. He breaks down his “left road vs. right road” framework, the ego’s role in conflict, and how professionals can quickly recognize fear-based thinking. From reframing persuasion as a human practice to simple ways to choose love over fear,Tony offers grounded, accessible guidance. Whether you’re litigating, managing workplace tension, or aiming to communicate with more ease, this episode positions negotiation as a process built on awareness, calmness, and kindness, not scare tactics.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

July 1, 20251 hr 16 min

Negotiation Is a Human Process: Strategies from John Lowry

John Lowry—expert negotiator and author of Negotiation Made Simple—joins us to break down the real dynamics of deal-making. Drawing from years as a litigator and founder of The Lowry Group, a negotiation collective, John explains why successful negotiation isn’t just about facts or law—it’s about people.We explore the mindset needed to negotiate effectively, how to manage emotion and ego on both sides of the table, and why influence often matters more than information. John also shares why most professionals are negotiating far more often than they realize—yet rarely receive formal training.From anchoring strategies to when to walk away from the table, John offers practical advice grounded in real-world experience. Whether you’re managing a legal case or just trying to get a deal done, this conversation reframes negotiation as a fundamentally human process.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

June 17, 20251 hr 3 min

The End of Trauma: What Resilience Really Looks Like with Dr. George Bonanno

Dr. George Bonanno, professor of psychology at Columbia University and head of the Loss, Trauma, and Emotion Lab, joins us to challenge everything you think you know about trauma and resilience.George shares how his unconventional path—from a troubled youth to working with mentally ill adults—led him to Yale and into a career studying how people respond to loss and extreme stress.His research shows that most people are more resilient than commonly believed, bouncing back from hardship without developing long-term trauma.In this conversation, we dig into why PTSD is often misunderstood, how flexibility (not stoicism) is the real marker of resilience, and why popular traits like “grit” or “toughness” don’t always predict who copes well.George also discusses effective PTSD treatments—from exposure therapy to psychedelics—and how laughter, reappraisal, and even “coping ugly” can be surprisingly powerful tools in recovery.Whether you’re dealing with loss, supporting someone through a tough time, or just trying to understand what real resilience looks like, this episode brings deep insight backed by decades of research.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

May 20, 20251 hr 12 min

The Psychology of Persuasion: Lessons from FBI Negotiator Melissa Fortunato

Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over two decades of service, joins us to unpack what undercover operations and hostage negotiations can teach us about persuasion, human behavior, and trust-building—both in crisis and in daily life.Melissa shares how her background in psychology and counseling shaped her FBI career, taking her from a rape crisis center to undercover roles and high-stakes international negotiations. Walking us through jaw-dropping undercover assignments and negotiations, she describes posing as a bride-to-be in a fake wedding used to arrest international arms dealers and negotiating with the Taliban where the first offer (not hers) was “$30,000 and a goat.” Melissa explains why likability and emotional control are critical assets in any negotiation. She also discusses the differences and overlaps between the FBI and Harvard negotiation frameworks, and why understanding your own emotional triggers is the first step toward influencing others. She reflects on the power of empathy and connection in building rapport, whether it’s with organized crime figures or colleagues on a SWAT team.Whether you’re navigating tough business conversations, managing conflict at work, or just trying to get your teenager to do their homework, Melissa’s insights are sharp, surprising, and grounded in real-world experience.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services

April 22, 20251 hr 8 min

The Power of Connection: Hostage Negotiation Lessons for Everyday Influence With Scott Tillema

Scott Tillema, co-founder of The Negotiations Collective and veteran hostage negotiator, joins us to share what crisis negotiations can teach us about influence, emotional control, and communication under pressure.He explains how a curiosity about human behavior led him into law enforcement and how he ultimately trained to handle life-or-death situations on a SWAT team. Scott reveals how empathy, timing, and strong listening skills help de-escalate tense encounters—and why those same skills are essential in business and everyday life.Scott also shares his four-part communication framework featured in his viral TEDx talk and walks us through how he applies negotiation strategies in both high-stakes scenarios and corporate boardrooms. Whether you’re a lawyer, a leader, or just someone navigating tough conversations, Scott’s practical tools can help you become more persuasive and grounded.https://perkinscoie.com/insights/publication/settlement-counsel-services