The Official BNI Podcast

Hosted by Dr. Ivan Misner

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Oct 2026

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Referral marketing tips from Dr. Ivan Misner, Founder and Chief Visionary Officer of BNI

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October 28, 2026Episode 98412 min

Episode 984: Turning the Tables on Inviting

Synopsis Inviting visitors to your BNI chapter is not asking them to do you a favor. Guest Amy Kritzman shows you how to listen for the cues that making inviting easy. People talk about their business needs all the time. Every salesperson knocking at your door, sending you email, or calling on the phone is someone who needs more business. So is every person who comes to do work at your home or office location. Invite everyone who asks you for business. Tell them to bring a friend or colleague. If they can’t make it, ask whether someone else from their company could. Links Visit the Gold Medal Ideas website . Listen to Episode 837: Sponsoring 52 Members in 3½ Years . Listen to Episode 639: How to Bring a Visitor into the Room . Listen to Episode 633: I’ve Invited Everyone I Know . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 984 Priscilla: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the official BNI podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the founder and the chief visionary officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello, Ivan. How are you? And where are you? Ivan: I am finally in Monaco. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times on the previous podcasts. I’m in Monaco for the [BNI] International Convention and for the [BNI] French [National] Conference. And I’ve been here before. I’m really enjoying myself. It’s good to be back here. I have a guest today. It’s her first time on BNI Podcast, Amy Kritzman. Amy is the President of Gold Medal Ideas , where she helps businesses stand out through creative promotional products and branded merchandise. She currently holds the Promotional Products seat with BNI Networkers Plus [Chapter] in Long Grove, Illinois, [USA] and for nearly 15 years, BNI has been an important part of her professional journey. Since early 2019, she’s also had the privilege of serving as a BNI Director, facilitating regional leadership trainings and launch trainings for a number of new chapters during the COVID years, the challenging years. She’s also proud to periodically serve as a substitute facilitator for [BNI US] National Speed Networking. Amy, did you know that we hold the Guinness World Record for speed networking? Amy: Oh, I did not. That’s fantastic. Ivan: Yeah, BNI holds the Guinness World Record for the most number of people at a speed networking event. It was in Australia at the last [BNI Global] Convention. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. Amy: Thank you. Ivan: Next time you do a National Speed Networking event, you can say BNI holds the Guinness World Record. Amy: I will do it. Ivan: All right. So your topic is Turning the Tables on Inviting. Talk about that because so many people ask me, “How do you invite?” For me, I don’t get it — it seems easy, but a lot of people struggle with this. So help us out. Amy: Oh, a lot of people struggle with it. I think that a lot of people struggle with it because they think it’s hard. They think they’re asking somebody to do them a favor . They just don’t understand all the time. And I think once you see that we’re listening to people talk about their business and their needs all the time, whether it’s customers or no matter who it is, and all we have to do is listen for the right cue. So, and it refers… there’s so many ways that this refers. It even works in referrals. But I’m talking about inviting. So, for example, I get a phone call from a guy who says he’s with Verizon, and I say, well, okay, he wants to sell me something because I’m looking mobile, and it turns out he does want to sell me something. And my questions are: “Where do you work? What do you do? Are you responsible for growing the area? And do you live and work in the area?” And when those answers are all yes, clearly he needs to meet my network of people that I meet with because I’d like to introduce him to them. And before he has a chance to sell me anything, I have him registered to visit. Ivan: Yeah, absolutely. And I’ve had people on the podcast before that have said to their receptionist, “Put every cold call through to me,” and that’s what they do. They say, “I’ll meet with you. I’m happy to meet with you. Come meet me at this location at this time. Bring plenty of business cards, and we’ll talk.” And they get a lot of visitors that way. I love that technique. Amy: Yeah, it is fantastic, and I have a related story that I tell my chapters and I tell my members. About four years ago we needed a new roof and there was no roofer in my chapter and I went to another chapter, found a roofer, got it done, got the siding, spent a lot of money on it, so of course Facebook knows that I’m interested in this now. Ivan: Yeah. Amy: So Facebook says, “Here’s some pictures,” and I see a picture of a guy, and I like the looks of this guy. I like the truck. I like the ad. I have always felt a little bad that I connected through that Facebook ad because he probably had to pay for me to connect with him. And I said, “Can you give me a call?” He calls, and I say, “Tell me how you’re growing your business.” It led to an invitation. He joined the same week. He is the biggest referrer in our chapter, and has been for all the years he’s been in the chapter. The biggest referrer. Ivan: I love it, and roofing companies are great in BNI. I just sold a house that I used as a rental, and I needed to have it re-roofed. Used a BNI member to roof it. He came in quick. He did a great job. You know, when you’re using BNI members, I think they just do a cut above on a BNI referral. Amy: Absolutely, and with this particular guy, I got to tell you, a couple of weeks ago, he called me, because I’m also his [BNI] Director, he called and said, “Am I allowed to put in $500,000 for Thank You for Closed Business? And I said, “Well, I mean, is it real money? He said, “Yeah.” Well, a member referred him to one person, and then she took him all around the neighborhood, and he fixed everybody’s roofs. Ivan: (chuckling) Oh, yeah, that counts. Amy: I said, “Yeah. Yes, not only are you allowed to, but you must.” Yeah, you should absolutely. Ivan: All right. So, inviting doesn’t always start with who do I know. Talk about that. Amy: Inviting does not always start with who do I know, because we don’t always know the people that are calling us. Ivan: Yeah. Amy: And what we want to know is who’s already talking to me? Who has reason to be asking me for something. Well, then I can turn that into a conversation about what I want from them. Ivan: Right. It’s like the cold call that comes in. So, why do visitors matter? I mean, I know, but tell members. You’re a member and a director. Tell members why visitors matter. Amy: Well, we had a little session this morning at my BNI meeting, and we broke into groups with the five categories that fall under the Power of One. And I asked each group to tell us why that item was important to their businesses. And the kind of thing that comes out of that when it comes to visitors is what brings fresh energy into the room. Ivan: Yeah. Amy: And it gives us a chance to practice our messaging differently, new people to hear things, expanding the chapter’s reach, expanding our own reach, and we know that visitors do business with members, even if they are not interested in joining or not able to join at this time or apply at this time. Ivan: Yeah. Sometimes I’ve had visitors who, for whatever reason, they couldn’t join, and I’ve suggested to them, “Do you have somebody in your office that might be available?” And it’s amazing how they don’t think of that unless you present that idea to them, and so many times I’ve had people say, “Actually, I do have somebody in my office that would be able to do it,” and many times I would get an associate of the visitor to join. Amy: Yes, and often when I do have a new visitor on the hook, I will say, “And when you come, why don’t you bring somebody else with you? You might be more comfortable if you bring a friend, somebody else in your building, somebody else that you know who might want to meet some people.” Ivan: Right. You know that’s ironic because I actually started the third and fourth chapter of BNI for that very reason. One person didn’t want to come alone, brought a friend, and the two of them couldn’t join the second chapter because they were in the same profession that was represented there. So the two of them ended up opening up two more chapters, and it happened exactly as you’re describing there. Amy: Yeah, it’s great. It makes them feel a little more comfortable sometimes. Everybody doesn’t like to walk into a room full of strangers, believe it or not. Ivan: Yep, that’s very true. All right, so I’m going to change lanes slightly here. We’ve been talking about visitors, but you talk about being a Thank You for Closed Business junkie. Amy: I am totally a Thank You for Closed Business junkie. Here’s how that happened. You know, I’ve been around since about the end of 2011, and I’ve been a good solid member. I was a good solid member all along. You know, not the best, not the worst. We didn’t know the Power of One in those days. When we learned the Power of One was around the same time as we began to use the [BNI] regional websites. So one day I’m sitting looking out my window, and a great big tree had fallen on our lawn between my house and the next-door neighbor, and it didn’t do any damage, thank goodness. There was no landscaper in my chapter, so I said, “Well, what am I going to do now? Am I going to go to Google or am I going to go to BNI Connect?” Ivan: (chuckling) Amy: Wait a minute! I got this handy-dandy regional website. I can go and find a landscaper in another chapter. Before I knew it, I had thousands of dollars in Thank You for Closed Business between my house, the next-door neighbor, and another neighbor down the street. And I said, “Wait, this was way too easy. I can do this.” And I started putting in my G.A.I.N.S. profile how much Thank You for Closed Business I was going to do that year, how much I was going to give to other members that year. And I have beat it every year that I have committed to a number. Ivan: See, this is why it’s so important to complete your profile on BNI Connect because when I’m looking for a profession, if they don’t have a reasonably well completed profile, I move on and to look for someone else. One of the ones that blew my mind the most was I was looking for a photographer, and I found several photographers in the area that I was looking for that didn’t put up their own photo. Amy: (laughing) Ivan: A photographer who didn’t put up their own photo. It’s like, okay, you’re out. I’m not going to use you. And I hired a different photographer, which did have a great profile. So yeah, complete your profile. Amy: Absolutely. Ivan: Any last thought before we wrap up? Amy: Well, I love BNI. What could I tell you? I’m a big fan. I think I’ll stay. Ivan: Well, I’m really glad to hear that, and thank you so much for being on BNI Podcast today. I appreciate all that you do, and you had great content today. Amy: Thank you. Ivan: Thanks for being here. Priscilla, over to you. Priscilla: Okay. Thank you, Amy, and thank you, Ivan. I think that’s really, really nice and really a great podcast. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

October 21, 2026Episode 98312 min

Episode 983: Passport + Mentors = Retention

Synopsis Just stepped down from your chapter’s leadership team? Mark Graber wants you as a mentor for the BNI Passport to Success program. The Passport Program is an engagement tool for BNI members and a retention tool for BNI chapters. It brings together everything a member should be doing to get the most out of BNI. Why Should You Mentor? Being a mentor keeps both you and the new member actively involved in BNI. Going through the Passport Program again deepens your own relationships and networking skills. Growing the chapter through by onboarding quality members generates more business for everyone. Links Visit Mark’s region, BNI British Columbia . Listen to Episode 922: The Power Beneath the Surface . Listen to Episode 942: Engaging Longtime Members . Read The Networking Mentor . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 983 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am doing great. I’m in Austin preparing for the [BNI] Global Convention in Monaco, and the [BNI] French [Conference], also in Monaco. So I’ll be there later this week. And going to Convention is always a blast. Priscilla: Mm hmm. Sounds fun. Ivan: I have a good friend on. This is his first time on BNI Podcast. I’m a little surprised it’s his first time. Mark has always got great content. Mark Graber is [BNI] Executive Director for Vancouver Island, Lower Mainland Southeast, Lower Mainland West, Northern Interior — that’s a long description — in British Columbia, Canada . He was a high school mathematics teacher, which I didn’t know, for 15 years, and a lecturer at Curtin University in Perth [Australia] in the business school for 13 years. He has three children. Sophie, I can’t pronounce the next name, is it Lachlan (LATCH-lann)? Mark: Lachlan (LOCK-luhn). Ivan: Lachlan, okay, and Ellie. Mark joined BNI as a member in 2004 in Perth, and he’s developing learning management systems primarily with Moodle. [He was] on the Inaugural Innovation Task Force for BNI under Graham Weihmiller; he was 10 years on the Founder’s Circle. He helped to develop BNI TV on YouTube. He is the one who came up with the concept or the phrase “Ivan Unplugged” for my Ask Ivan stuff, which I use a lot, Mark. And I mostly refer that it came from you. He’s been in BNI for 23 years. Mark Graber, welcome to the BNI Podcast. Mark: Oh, it’s wonderful to be here, Ivan. Thank you so much for having me, and [thanks] Priscilla, and thanks to Dana for coordinating all of it. It’s a real pleasure. Ivan: Yeah, everybody needs a Dana. She’s a great assistant, and I’m lucky to have her. So you helped to develop with Hazel the Passport Program, and the topic here is Passport + Mentors = Retention. So, talk a little bit about how the Passport program began. Mark: So, it began really with the retention problem within our region, and we were losing first-year members. We wanted greater retention. We know that when members stay longer, they pass larger referrals, and chapters grow larger, so we knew it was a moving target. And I’d heard too many times, and still do, that you know, major reason people left was that they were too busy. So together with my business partner Hazel Walker, we started, as Hazel calls it, spitballing — brainstorming ideas and concepts of how we could onboard new members really well, and make sure they covered all the major topics and sort of the situations they would encounter, and to guarantee that each member was receiving the same level of engagement and sort of understanding. So I took it from my academic life, a Capstone Unit in the Bachelor of Business degree, where all the schools came together from management, marketing, economics, finance, business law, and we created a passport there. They would meet each other, because they were in their own independent silos, and they were meeting for the first time. And so, I translated that concept over about onboarding. So Hazel began to create all the content, and we kept, you know, adding, taking away, thinking what was most important. You know, the usual whiteboard days and design samples and printing out hard copies, and you know, we were exchanging hard copies at conferences eventually, when it spread to different countries. So that’s how it began. Ivan: So you talk about the Passport Program being an engagement tool, not an educational tool. Talk about that. Mark: Well, we wanted it because we’ve established the [BNI] Core Value of Building Relationships and recognized that the engagement was key to a member’s length of stay in BNI. And that it was all about understanding about how much you know people care before how much people know… you know all about that. And so we knew that great customer engagement was a key, and that journey has been built upon by many people within BNI. And I stand on the shoulders of greats — Andy Hart’s great work, Rob Gorecki’s great work. Working with Hazel has been amazing, and it’s not just one person developing it. It was like a series of these really great tools about what a member should be doing to make the most out of BNI and their journey in of BNI. Ivan: By the way, I agree with this focus on engagement. I think the success of a chapter is the quality of members, the quantity of members, and the engagement of the members, so I couldn’t agree more. Now the Passport Program requires mentors. Talk about that. Mark: So the hardest part is really, I think, is filling the 10 mentor seats within the Passport Program. In the initial days, it was about you know being a Visitor host for a day, engaging with the Communications Coordinator, understanding what the VP did. But as we’ve grown, and of course, and as technology is a part of our life and our BNI life, there’s much greater emphasis on learning some of the technology. So we need mentors in roles, and we need senior members who’ve been in chapters for a while to translate and give that opportunity of building relationships and continuing that by our newest members and mentoring and standing up. So, I’ve seen it in my region, a chapter that was at 40 [members] going to 65 and managing the newest members coming up. You’re inviting 60 potential visitors every single month, and those visitors turn into members, and the numbers don’t lie. We know that in order to get great members, we need members with great character that really want to and live the Givers Gain philosophy. What we used to say, “bleed burgundy,” Ivan. You know, understand what it means to be an effective mentor, and that was so eloquently put in Stephen M. R. Covey’s book, The Speed of Trust , about what do we look at with great character. Ivan: Yeah, Stephen M. R. Covey, he’s a good friend. Love his book, The Speed of Trust . He’s also a member of the Transformational Leadership Council. Mark: Yeah, brilliant. And I think we had him.. did we have him at a conference one time? Ivan: Yeah, we had him at a [BNI] Conference. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. He was brilliant. Yeah. Ivan: Yeah. Now, why would someone want to be a mentor? Mark: Well, I think the key here is the ability to transfer your knowledge. We know that when you help other people, you’re going to help yourself. Ivan: Yep. 100%. Mark: So the key here for being the mentor is keeping people also actively involved. Sometimes when you step down from a Leadership Team, it’s like, oh, this is the end of my role of visibility. When actually, sometimes it’s more important to be a great mentor. You’ve got a chapter at 65 [members] that’s interviewing, you know, 20 potential applicants every single month. You need great mentors because the Passport Program is crucial to the onboarding of those 20 brand new members, and so we encourage mentors to continue to take a role, to continue to be involved. It’s key, and it’s the key as you grow. Ivan: So I think you hit the key point that being a mentor improves your own game, and I talk about that in the short book I wrote, The Networking Mentor , and I tell a story in there about coaching a bunch of 10-year-olds on chess and how my game improved when I coached 10-year-olds, and it was amazing to me that my game would improve by coaching 10-year-olds. So I think if you want to be a mentor, you not only help other people, but you can improve your own participation in BNI. Mark: Correct, and I’ve seen great successful chapters run as teams, and these teams of mentors on many levels really support that. You know, and it gives the newest member an opportunity to appreciate how the team works, the piece of the jigsaw puzzle, putting it all together. Ivan: Yeah. So, have you talked about that… I know integrity built through honesty. You want to talk about that a little bit? Mark: Well, I think really what we’re looking for here is mentors that are really being authentic about why they’re being in BNI. Why do they renew for 15 years in a row, 17 years in a row, understanding that BNI is a long game. Ivan: You know, Mark, we have members who’ve been in for over 40 years. Mark: I know it’s incredible, from the very first. It’s incredible. So you know that… and they’re all treated equally, and that equality is key. And you know, and Covey talks about the intent. What is the intent? The intent is to grow. What’s our motive to grow? Our motive to grow is to make you more successful. More members… we know the statistics, they don’t lie, they tell us the truth. That’s more members, more referrals, more average referral, more average receipt value, etc. Ivan: Yeah, so great successful chapters run as teams on a lot of levels. You want to talk about that before we wrap up? Mark: I want to I make it clear to people that they see might see three people at the front of a meeting one time, and think that those three people are doing everything. But there’s people and teams that lead behind the BNI Plus team, the Membership Committee team, the Visitor Host Team, the Follow-Up Team, the Greeter-Shepherd-Helper Registration Table Team, the IT Production Team. And so when new members come in and see and be a part of that team, that’s a real sense of belonging. They get to see how it works and to visualize it, to engage it, and to see what does it mean to be there at six a.m. when we’ve got a visitors day and we’ve got 40 visitors. What does it take? All of those experiences, and so the passport program was about that engagement into various experiences about being a BNI member and doing it with the right people in your first three months because that’s key and therefore getting people as mentors to help them through that journey. Ivan: You believe that the tools and the statistics that we have through BNI Connect have value. Do you want to talk about that briefly before we wrap? Mark: Sure, absolutely. I just wanted to say thank you to Dr. Caroline Irving, and thank you very much to the ELT for all the work, great work that she does. So we know that there are tools out there and utilizing… so just looking at member traffic lights, members who sponsor, members who are great in CEU points, etc. That’s really where my guide is to be able to try and find the correct mentor. So it’s continually my search. So to all of my members listening, please, if you want to take on a mentor role, please get in contact with us. We’d love it. Ivan: Absolutely. Mark, thanks so much for being on BNI Podcast. Mark’s website for BNI is www.bnibc.ca – for Canada. Thanks so much, Mark. It was great having you on, and come back again. Mark: Thank you very much, Ivan. Thank you, Priscilla. I loved it. Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: You’re welcome. Okay, well, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

October 14, 2026Episode 98213 min

Episode 982: The Radical Promise

Synopsis Credibility is a key element of BNI’s VCP (Visibility, Credibility, Profitability) process. If you have no credibility, people will not work with with you, refer you, or follow your lead. The key to credibility is behavior. It’s doing what you say you will. According to special guest Steve Farber, that means much more than following through on your commitments. Everything you say about what you stand for and what your values are is also a commitment. If you want to be a credible leader, you need to be a living, breathing, walking example of your values. Links Listen to Episode 635: Love Is Good Business . Visit Steve’s Extreme Leadership website. Get your copy of The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 982 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am home in Austin, Texas, this week, preparing for the [BNI] Global Convention, and I’ve got two really good friends who are coming to visit us. Dawn Lyons and Mike Macedonio are coming this week, so I’m looking forward to seeing them. Of course, you know Dawn and Mike. Priscilla: I know them well. Ivan: So they’re hanging out at my house later this week. Priscilla: Oh, they must be loving that. Ivan: Yeah, we have a good time together. So I’ve got a guest today. He has been on my podcast before, episode number 635, “Love is Good Business,” which is based on his previous book. Which, by the way, I loved that book, and I kind of argued with him at first that “Come on, you know, business and love. Seriously, Steve?” And he was like, “Yeah.” And then when he explained, I’m like, “Wow, yeah, love is damn good business.” So Steve is a best-selling author. He’s a sought-after keynote speaker. He has spoken at a BNI Convention. I would argue probably one of the top two or three speakers I’ve ever had at a Convention in the 30-plus years that I’ve been doing Conventions. He’s a seasoned leadership coach consultant. He’s worked with a lot of public and private organizations, including BNI. He’s an author of six acclaimed books on leadership, including The Radical Leap which earned Fast Company’s Readers’ Choice Award and was named one of the 100 Best Business Books of All Time. Wow! And his newest book, The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do , which I think is really, really important, it was co-written with two of his good friends, Jim Kouzes, I think I’m pronouncing that right, and Barry Posner. Steve, welcome to the BNI Podcast. Steve: Thank you, Ivan. Great to be back with you, and thank you. Such high praise from you. I appreciate that. Ivan: Well, I mean it too. That’s the really nice part. Hey, so credibility is behavior, you suggest in the book. Talk about that a little bit. Steve: Yeah. So my co-authors in the book, Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner, have been conducting research on leadership for 50 years now. Jim is my most significant mentor, so it was really cool, full circle thing writing a book with him, but their research started with a very simple question, which is: What do you look for and admire in a leader? Someone whose direction you would willingly follow. The key word there is willingly, not because you have to, but because you want to. And they asked that question all around the world, across industries, across cultures, and the simple answer that came up again and again, back then and still to this day, is credibility. If this leader is not credible, I’ll follow because I have to – if they’re signing my paycheck, for example. Ivan: Mm hmm. Steve: But in order to engender commitment, I have to see this person as credible. And what then does credibility look like behaviorally? Simply put, a credible person is somebody who does what they say they’re going to do. So this idea of doing what you say you will do is, on the surface, such a simple thing that seems painfully obvious, but there’s a lot of nuance to it, and there’s a lot of challenge to it, and the stakes are very, very high. Because if we’re not seen as a person whose actions are congruent with their words, the whole foundation for leadership just crumbles. Ivan: Yeah, you know, the older I get, the less I believe in words, and the more I believe in behaviors. And now, words are powerful, don’t get me wrong, but behaviors are even more powerful. And credibility is part of the key fundamentals of what we teach with Visibility, Credibility, and then Profitability in terms of generating referrals. So, this fits really well with what we teach in BNI. Steve: Yeah, yeah. The words are really easy to use without any intention of following through, right? Yeah, you know flap our gums relentlessly and say things that we don’t really mean, or say things because they sound convenient in the moment. But words are important. I mean, we do want our leaders to say, for example, what commitments they’re going to make. Ivan: Yeah. Steve: We want them to say what values are important, you know. So with BNI, with your prevailing ethos of Givers Gain ® , that’s not something you just hope people will experience. You say it. And once you say it, you’re putting a stake in the ground that says now measure us against this, and that’s what every leader should be doing. We need to say, “Here’s what I stand for. Here’s what’s important around here. These are the values that we should be adhering to. These are the standards that we set. These are the objectives that we have.” I say it, but then, of course, I need to be the walking, talking, living, breathing example of those words that come out of my mouth. Ivan: Yeah, I mean, doing what you say is simple, but it’s not easy because following those words is the tough part. Steve: Yes, and it happens on a number of different levels. So you know, on the surface… and this is something that we really, I think we really do a good job of teasing out the nuances in this in the book because you know it’s written as a story, it’s written as a novel, so you get a chance to really experience what it’s like to stray from that, as the characters do in the book. It’s easy to lose sight of all of this, but the nuances are: on the surface, it sounds really simple. Doing what you say you will do is following through on promises and commitments. Okay, I tell you I’m going to call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock, I call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock. But on a deeper level, it’s what we were just talking about a couple minutes ago. Am I doing the values that I say are important? Am I modeling and leading by example through the things that are important to all of us on a values level? And when you look at the consequences, the advantages of being a congruent leader like that, and you look at the consequences of not doing that, what happens to the culture? What happens to the to the productivity and everything else? That’s where it really becomes very personal very quickly. Ivan: Yeah, you use an example of “Hey, I’ll call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock.” I would say you really want to under-promise and over-deliver. So I would often say, “I’ll get back to you before the end of the day tomorrow,” and then I would call them at 10 o’clock. Steve: Right. Ivan: So it’s like, “Oh wow, you got back [to me] early.” Steve: Yeah. Ivan: So you kind of over-deliver if possible, and to me that really shows a level of credibility when you show up even stronger than what you promised. Steve: Right, I agree. And there’s a challenge here most people aren’t even really aware of in my experience, and that is – oftentimes I make promises that I don’t even know I made. So, for example, if I say, “Hey, Ivan, I’m going to be in Austin next week. We should have lunch,” and maybe I’m thinking “ or not .” Ivan: (chuckling) Steve: You know, if it’s convenient, if it works out. But what are you likely to hear? Farber is going to be in town next week, and we’re going to have lunch. So next week comes and goes. We don’t have lunch. I didn’t follow through on that commitment because I didn’t even realize that I made it. Ivan: Yeah. Steve: And what happens? My credibility is still damaged in your eyes. Ivan: Yeah. All right. So you also talk about love and credibility being inseparable, and of course, episode number 635 was about your book Love Is Your Damn Good Business , which I really enjoyed. Talk about love and credibility being inseparable. Steve: Yeah, so love without credibility is just sentiment, right? It’s a greeting card basically. Ivan: Yes. Steve: So the idea of love in business, you know, we want our clients to love doing business with us. That’s where our advantage comes from. In order to make that happen in a sustainable way over time, we have to create an environment or a culture, a dynamic that people love working in. And I can’t do that as a leader unless I’ve got it myself first. It’s got to be authentic. I need to love this business, the people I’m working with, people I’m working for – otherwise, known as my customers. So all that stuff again, it’s easy to say. You can print the banners and the buttons and you know bumper stickers about how much we love our customers, but the credibility comes from acting in a way that demonstrates that. So, what should love look like in the way that we do business is the question, and then how well and how consistently do we do that? So, credibility without love, it’s still a good thing, right? Ivan: Yeah. Steve: But love without credibility is just like I said, it’s an empty sentiment, and it’s more likely to create cynicism than it is to create any kind of advantage. Ivan: Yeah. What other message do you have from the book that you think my BNI members would have value from? Steve: Yeah. I think it’s really about when you look at… let’s talk about BNI members in particular. And again, I come back to Givers Gain ® because to me, and I actually wrote about you guys in Love is Just Damn Good Business , and I used that example. So for a member, the question is: Am I — me personally, am I the walking, talking, living, breathing example of Givers Gain? Am I demonstrating what it’s like to give first and to be concerned with that, and to look at the value that I’m bringing to my fellow members and the people around me? For every value that we profess, to turn it back around and insert that first-person singular pronoun “I” — Am I doing this? And once I have the credibility, then I can demand it of others as well. Ivan: Yeah. It’s easy to say somebody else doesn’t practice Givers Gain ® , but you got to start with yourself. Are you practicing it before you can point at other people? It’s that famous old saying that when I point at you, I’ve got three fingers pointing back to me. Steve: Right. Yes. Ivan: Yeah. All right. So your website is www.theradicalpromise.com . theradicalpromise.com. Any last thought before we wrap? Steve: Yeah. Just thank you for having me on the podcast again, Ivan. And I hope people will take that book to heart. You’ll enjoy the story, and then it ends with a very significant application section. So you’ll have the experience, and then you’ll know exactly what roadmap to follow to master the art of doing what you say you will do. Ivan: Well, Steve, thank you very much. I consider you a friend. You’re a participant in the Transformational Leadership Council with me, so I see you at least once or twice a year, and look forward to seeing you again. Thanks for being on BNI Podcast. Steve: Thank you. Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: Okay, that was wonderful. I really look forward to looking at your book and reading it. Ivan: There’ll be a test next week, Priscilla. Priscilla: (chuckling) Okay, I’m ready for it. I think that’s it for this week. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

October 7, 2026Episode 98114 min

Episode 981: The Psychology of Why People Refer

Synopsis Dean Jackson explains to guest host Spencer Reynolds how you can use the psychology behind referrals to your benefit in BNI and in business. Referrals are driven by self-preservation. People make referrals to add value to their own social groups. People are highly protective of their close connections and want to share good experiences and warn against bad ones. Recommending useful resources raises a person’s standing within their group, creating a natural sense of mutual value exchange. Instead of asking your referral partners to tell people about you, train them to identify opportunities and report them back to you. Make the referrer the hero. Create valuable, easy-to-share materials your referral partners can pass along. Links Visit Dean’s website: https://deanjackson.com . Listen to the I Love Marketing Podcast . Visit the BNI Tampa Bay website. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 981 Priscilla: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by Spencer Reynolds, who is standing in today as a guest host for Dr. Misner, and he will be joining us from time to time. Hello, Spencer. Welcome to the podcast. Spencer: Thank you, Priscilla. I appreciate it. Excited to be with you. Priscilla: It’s great to have you. And who are you presenting us with today? Spencer: Today’s guest is someone that has spent decades, honestly, with business owners and teaching them a really powerful truth about marketing, and that it’s the world happens through relationships and trust and referrals. He’s a legendary marketer. He’s a co-host of an iconic podcast called I Love Marketing , and he’s a brilliant thinker on philosophy. And this is a good friend of mine. His name is Dean Jackson. Dean, welcome to the show. Dean: Thank you. Welcome. Glad to be here. Spencer: Yeah, you know, Dean, it’s hard to believe that we’ve known each other for 24 years now. Dean: Is that how long it’s been? That’s crazy. Spencer: And I’m only 22 in my head, so that math. Dean: Yeah, exactly. Me too. That’s so funny. We actually had Dr. Misner on our I Love Marketing podcast years ago. Spencer: Fantastic. Well, Dean, today I really want to talk about some of the wisdom that you’ve learned over years inside of marketing, and referrals in particular. But let’s talk about why. You know, Simon Sinek says start with why. So let’s start with why do people refer? Dean: I think that’s the biggest misconception that people have is that often one of the first blocks we have to overcome to really optimize the number of referrals that you can get, is to understand that people are not referring as a favor to you or a gift to you. When you have this mindset that you have to earn referrals or that you are somehow asking for referrals, you’re going down a path that is kind of counter to what we, as species, have evolved to do. As long as we have been playing the cooperation game and escape the food chain, basically we’ve become the most successful species ever. That we have learned the importance of looking out for each other and maintaining what I call our status in the herd. That if we look at it, that that’s the primary reason that we do anything, and the reason that we avoid anything is if we feel like something might damage our status in the herd. And it’s a very, very… you know, it goes all the way back to when we were gathering as you know tribes of 150 people or groups, that we always had to kind of look out for each other, and we realized that we were going to be better off if we were constantly looking out for and adding value collectively. And so you see the remnants of these things happen, you know, evolve into even, our society things. The way we are today, we’re not kind of out on the savanna with our just 150 people. We’re in big cities, but we’re still among our group of 150 people. There’s been a lot of research on this, and you may have heard of Robin Dunbar. Spencer: Yeah. Dean: His research on what’s become known as Dunbar’s Number, and that number is 150, and it’s the number of relationships that we can maintain. Now we may know and recognize 1000 or more people, but we truly have relationship with 150, and we’re very guarded in those relationships. It’s our role to add value to our herd and to protect our herd from getting damaged. That’s why we’re… If you look at everything we do, we want to recommend things to people. Spencer: Yeah, we do. Dean: You see it all the time. If you see a movie, or if we’re talking about movies, we already know, “You got to see this one.” or “Oh, don’t see that one.” We’re even guarding people’s experiences. We don’t want them to waste their time reading a book that wasn’t worth it or making sure that they do read a book that was. And it’s the same thing for service providers and products that we that we come in contact with. Spencer: Talk more about this status in the herd. Because you came out to Tampa [Florida] in our [BNI] region and did a conversation with me on stage at one of our big conferences, and that’s been talked about so much. That’s why I really wanted to bring you here. So give us that hunter-gatherer conversation so that people can hear you. Dean: If we look at it, that we constantly are looking to, I’ll call it like “keep our balanced books.” That this is what Robert Cialdini would talk about with reciprocation. That if I do something nice for you, then you kind of owe me a favor, and you see that all the time playing out just in our normal interactions. But how that would have worked back then is let’s say we’re out and we’re hunting and gathering, and I find a big patch of blueberries, and I see you on the trail, and I say, “Hey, Spencer, there’s a big patch of blueberries over that hill. Go get you some blueberries, too. And I’m going to carry these big ones all the way back to the camp.” Now, in that moment, I am higher status than you because I have just added value to you. You feel this need to balance that out, so you may say to me, “Well, watch out behind those rocks because I saw a lion over there,” and now we’re even. I showed you where the blueberries were. You protected me from the lion. That’s the way the give and take of society works. So we’re constantly looking for opportunities to protect our herd and to guide our herd to different things. And whenever we do something nice for somebody or thoughtful for somebody, that is raising our status. They kind of owe us one in a way, and that’s what really drives the way that we that we interact with people and the way that we introduce new things or protect people. That’s why you see, like you see it all the time. So many people, like we depend on all the people around us. That’s why testimonials, and that’s why reviews and things are kind of like… we’re by proxy taking somebody else’s… They’re helpfully giving us advice on something. Spencer: Yeah, and that’s what I was going to ask: is why does that matter more now than it ever has in the past? Dean: Yeah, because there’s so many people that we don’t know that are trying to take advantage of us, you know. And so that’s why we try and protect the people that we know in our 150. Imagine, a city is just all these interlaced herds of your inner circle of 150 people And let’s just talk about Dunbar’s Number there. The 150 that we’re talking about are people that if you saw them at the grocery store, you’d recognize them by name. You’d stop and have a conversation with them. You have a relationship with them, and we’re constantly in conversation with those people, and that’s the absolute key to the referrals – that we have a relationship with somebody, we’re going to have conversation with them, and in those conversations, certain things have to take place. They have to notice that the conversation is about whatever it is that would be useful for you. They have to think about you, and then they have to introduce you to the person that they have the conversation with, and that’s how referrals actually happen. Somebody, if I’m a real estate agent and I’m talking with one of my top 150, and they’re saying, “Oh, we’re getting transferred. We’re going to have to sell the house and move to Poughkeepsie.” Now, if I am, you know, if I’m in that situation and I hear somebody saying that, I may say, “Well, you should call Spencer because Spencer’s a great realtor, he can help you out. That’s my realtor. Tell him I told you to call.” That kind of thinking that we’re doing the right thing, and that’s often what people train their clients to do. They’ll tell people make sure and tell your friends about me, but what that doesn’t do is that doesn’t connect the dots between you and the person that you are referring. And it’s an important thing because then somebody you know, you may run into them at the grocery store, and they’ll say, “Hey, did my friend Spencer ever give you a call?” “No, no, I never heard from him.” “Oh well, I guess they’re gone now.” “But I tell people about you all the time.” You hear people say that, right? That you encourage people to tell people about you. That’s exactly what they do. And what would be more valuable is instead of concentrating on them telling people about you, we need to train them to tell you about people. To tell you about their friends that are moving, and the best way to do that is to give them the opportunity to be the hero. So if I have a book… Spencer: Yeah. And Dean, we are going to have to wrap up here in just a minute. So I’m just wanting to make sure that you got that, and that we can finish up with this thought because this is good. Dean: No problem. So if I have a book called How to Sell Your House for Top Dollar Fast , and I train my clients to say, “Hey, just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about selling their house, and then if you do, give me a call or text me, and I’ll give you a copy of my book to give to them.” Now you’re giving something of value to somebody that’s going to make them look like a very thoughtful person. That’s going to reflect well on their status, that you thoughtfully went out of your way and you got me something. Spencer: And just like that, you raise your status in the herd. Dean: That’s exactly right. Spencer: Fantastic. Well, Dean, this is really good. I really hope people can see that inside of the philosophy. We have to think a little deeper than just surface level on the motivations of why people want to refer us, and I think this was a really great way to teach some of that. So thank you so much for your time. What’s the best way for people to be able to find out more about you if they want to hear more of this, Dean? Dean: I’m pretty easy to find at deanjackson.com. Spencer: There you go. Priscilla, back to you. Priscilla: Okay, perfect. Thank you both so much. That’s it for this week. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

September 30, 2026Episode 98013 min

Episode 980: Kind Leadership

Synopsis Daniela Antongiovanni says kind leadership begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative, but the opposite is true. It’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect. Model the behavior you want to see in your company, your team, or your BNI chapter. If you make people feel valued and understood, it’s easier to work with them to look at the impact of their behavior and find a better way forward. Links Listen to Episode 295: Lead from Among, Not from Above . Listen to Episode 396: Host Leadership . Listen to Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 980 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am in California today. I’m about to leave for the membership drive cruise, which we do almost every year, and I get to hang out with 100 of my closest friends, BNI members from all over the United States, so it’s always fun to do these. Priscilla: Oh, that sounds great! Ivan: Today I’ve got a guest, and she’s an interpreter, so she’s going to laugh at my interpretation of her… pronunciation of her last name. But I’ve known Daniella for a long time, Daniela Antongiovanni. Did I get it close? Daniela: Close enough, yeah. (laughing) Ivan: Close enough (chuckling). You can call me miss-ner if you want then, Daniela. I’ve known Daniela a long time. Let me introduce her, and then I’ll tell you a quick story. She’s an interpreter, a business coach, an expert in nonviolent communication in a BNI franchise. What do they all have in common? Well, that’s what she’s going to talk about. So we’re going to listen to that. She had visited a BNI meeting, I think the first one was in 2014, and was really shocked about the way people were doing business. And she recognized that this was going to make a difference in the world, and she joined BNI in 2015, became a Director Consultant in 2016 and Executive Director in 2020. I first met her when she was an interpreter for me, and I do this with all interpreters. I say, “Hey, if I go too fast, just you know, have somebody raise their hands, raise their arms, so that I can know we’re going too fast.” And Daniela was like, “No, that’s not going to be a problem. Don’t worry about that.” And as soon as she said that, I knew I had a great interpreter because when the interpreters say, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’ll have somebody slow you down,” then I know I have an interpreter and I have to slow down. But with Daniela, she is right on it. She’s a great interpreter and a great Executive Director. Welcome to the BNI podcast, Daniela. Daniela: Thank you, Ivan. That’s very nice. Ivan: I told you that story, didn’t I? Daniela: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. (both laughing) If you want, I have a counter story to that. Ivan: Well, I don’t want to take too much time from the podcast. Daniela: No, no, no. We’ll do it in person. Okay. Ivan: Okay. So, what is kind leadership, and why is it better? Daniela: Yes, I’ll go into the definition. But before that, let me recall a moment when I saw it so clearly in action, and actually that was through you, because when we first met in 2016 at the BNI Italy National Conference in Milan, where I was for the first time honored to be your interpreter. Actually, I found something very surprising happening because after your keynote, I was supposing that you would retreat to the VIP room, as many other high-profile speakers I had translated were doing all the time. And instead you came up straight to the interpreting booth, and you said to me, “Come with me. I want to meet the members. I want to shake their hands. I want to do selfies. I want to answer their questions. I want to be there for them.” And you did. And there, I realized that you know I was working with a very special and kind leader, because you were not using status to create distance, you were creating connection. And that was a turning point in my professional evolution because that made me genuinely curious about BNI, and still today I’m learning from the way you lead. So… Ivan: That’s very sweet of you to say, Daniela, and I appreciate it. I think it’s important that I go out and meet as many members as possible, and I have members say to me, “Oh, thank you so much. You know, it must be really difficult to do this.” And I and I usually tell them, “Look, I could be digging ditches. This is way easier than digging ditches. I’m happy to take photographs.” Daniela: Yeah, yeah. Then kind leadership actually for me begins exactly with this. It begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Because tension and conflicts arise at the surface. Because we like to judge people, we judge them by what they do, what they say, by what they don’t do or don’t say. And then we like to be right when we judge them. But everybody sees reality from a different perspective, and we speak from experience, from our values, from our wounds, from our needs and desires, and they’re not right or wrong; they just are. And the point is that very often the needs are unexpressed, either because we’re not fully aware of them, or because by expressing them, maybe we will be made uncomfortable, and so we don’t really like that. So a kind leader is one who likes to go beneath the surface, be curious. Ivan: Mm hmm. Daniela: Which doesn’t mean that every behavior is acceptable. It means that when you understand the need that is engendering that behavior, you can look at the impact together, and together you can find a better way forward. That’s a healthy relationship, and we can do that every day when we meet people. And you know, the usual question is, “How are you? Ivan: Yeah. Daniela: Instead of just settling with the, “Fine, great,” in America, you say “terrific,” right? (both chuckling) Why don’t we just stay there and remain present, and we’ll meet the human being before the business person? Ivan: Yeah Daniela: That’s kind, I think. Ivan: Yeah, that is. I try to say I have a full life when I’m asked that question. Daniela: Yeah. Yes. Ivan: It could be I’m crazy busy, but it’s still full. I don’t say I’m crazy busy. I say I have a full life. I talked about this on a podcast before. So, what are some of your favorite questions? Daniela: My favorite questions are, for example, when I meet people, the first one is very open. The very open question is, “How’s life working out for you?” And then I project that into the future, and I ask them whether they have a dream they’re working on, if they’re creating something. And then, since life is not always so sweet, it’s also important to know what challenges are keeping you up at night. Ivan: Yeah. Daniela: But my all favorite question is, “What would you need right now?” Because that helps them go inside, and when you go inside, everybody knows what they know. And I just sometimes joke about and say, “Well, you can’t say a clone,” but very often they tell you right away what they need, and we can do that for them. Ivan: Do you find that the question about challenges needs to be towards the end of the conversation, not in the beginning, because they don’t really know you? My experience is, I’ve got to get them to open up before I ask them that question. Daniela: Yes, there needs to be possibly a meaningful relationship already in place, or in any case, some degree of safety, because safety is what makes people take their armor off and speak openly, and they can listen deeply. You can connect on a more profound level with people. Yes. Ivan: And this works outside BNI as well as inside BNI, I’m guessing. Daniela: Absolutely. That’s where the skepticism is strongest, where I think the need is highest because they know…. Ivan: I like that. Repeat that. Repeat that. That’s powerful. Daniela: Yeah, because the skepticism is strongest outside BNI because there’s a very competitive culture around leaders, and the need is the highest, I think. Yes, absolutely. Because leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative. And let me tell you a story about that. Ivan: Yeah. Daniela: I was coaching the top managers in an automotive company there, and the production manager was very skeptical, and he argued, “You know, I have 138 males from different cultures. It can get very rough. We have war rooms to resolve conflicts,” which I think is quite ridiculous. They should be called peace rooms if they want to be constructive. (both chuckling) But anyway, this is what they do. And then I said to him, “You know, but why don’t you just, you know, it may not be easy, but it’s surely simple. Be what you would like to see in your department.” Someone else said that before me, right? So he started going down to the factory floor, greeting them, “Hey, how are you? Is there anything I can do for you?” And they were very uncomfortable at first, and they made jokes. Ivan: Yeah. Daniela: They were shy, but he continued. And after six months, they were starting to support each other and begin to work as a team. They were going out for lunch together, which is not so hard for Italians normally, but they need a special invitation. Ivan: (laughing) Daniela: Okay, and that was amazing because then the results came. Ivan: Right. Daniela: And so you see, kind leadership or kindness in general, changes the quality of the relationships, and when you change the quality of the relationships, that changes the results. Ivan: Yeah, it absolutely does. And you know, there’s a school of thought about aggressive leadership, and there are a number of billionaires, who I won’t name, that have that track record. But that’s just not who I want to be. You know, success to me is not just about the success of the business, but it’s the success of the relationships that you have. And so, I love this idea of kind leadership. Daniela: Yes. Ivan: Now, having said that, is being kind not considered… This is a setup question because I know the answer. Is being kind not considered a sign of weakness? I Daniela: It is often mistaken for that, but I think it really requires courage. Because it’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect. And you know, make that other person feel seen, understood, and valued-a real connection. That’s what we need most, along with grounding. That’s how we build meaningful relationships. The ones that make leaders not feel lonely. Sometimes it can feel lonely at the top, and when you are creating an inner circle, where you can feel safe, where you can speak openly, where you can listen deeply, challenge respectfully, and take responsibility for the impact that you are making. I think that is not lowering the bar, and that is not weak. That is not soft leadership. That is kind leadership. That’s a way of really building meaningful relationships. Sometimes they can go even beyond business in BNI, for example. There’s a beautiful ecosystem for that. And you know, did I tell you about Lorenzo? Lorenzo, we joined together the same week in 2015 in January, we began as fellow members. Today, he is a closest friend of mine, besides being my heads of communication. And BNI is a perfect ecosystem for this. And it doesn’t really surprise me that we made it into the Inc. 5000 list. Absolutely. Ivan: Yes, we have just recently. BNI made it into that. Well, I agree with you. Kindness is often seen as a weakness, but it’s not. And I tell, you know, we don’t train people. People become leaders, and they’re not necessarily trained to be leaders. But I think if you generally can, you know, apply the systems and the rules more like Mandela than Attila, you’re going to be a good leader. And that’s one of the things that we say. Well, we’re over time, Daniela. Is there any last thought before we wrap? Daniela: The last thought is really kind leadership is not soft leadership. Kindness doesn’t make our leadership role less challenging, but we are no longer feeling alone. Ivan: Yeah, I love it. Daniela, you have a couple of websites, dacoach.it and flowxhub.it. Daniela: Yes. Ivan: Thank you so much for being here. I hope to see you on my next visit to Italy. Daniela: Yes, absolutely, and we’ll meet at Global Convention very easily. Ivan: Absolutely. Daniela: Okay, I’m looking forward. Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: Okay, well, that’s it for this week. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it very, very much. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

September 23, 2026Episode 97913 min

Episode 979: A Better Word Than Honesty

Synopsis As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement. If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest. Links Listen to Episode 7: Simplify Your Story . Read the Reliable Insights Blog . Listen to Episode 858: The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 979 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub. Priscilla: Okay, good. And who do you have with us today? Ivan: I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask , and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim? Jim: Correct. Ivan: Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty . So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them? Jim: Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators. Ivan: Yeah. Jim: Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words. Ivan: Right. Jim: Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty. Ivan: Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have. Jim: Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty? Ivan: Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah? Jim: Absolutely correct. Ivan: So how do you solve this dilemma? Jim: Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty? As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice. Ivan: What do you think about using a word like candidly? Jim: Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity. Ivan: All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”? Jim: I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it. Ivan: Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further. Jim: Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words. Ivan: And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly. Jim: Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person. Ivan: So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that. Jim: Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way. Ivan: I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think? Jim: Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity. Ivan: Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment? Jim: That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing. Ivan: Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap? Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.” Ivan: Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you. Jim: Thank you very much. Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

September 16, 2026Episode 97811 min

Episode 978: Building Trust or Introducing Doubt?

Synopsis If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest Phil Berg likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money. Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you. Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you. Links Read Networking Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint . Listen to Episode 888: How to Educate Others to Refer You . Listen to Episode 889: Taking a Leadership Role in Your Chapter Visit Phil Berg’s website, philberg.coach . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 978 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well. Priscilla: Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today? Ivan: I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint . Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast. Phil: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back. Ivan: Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust. Phil: Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust. Ivan: So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that? Phil: I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily. Ivan: And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic. Phil: Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago. So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to. If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down. Ivan: All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger. Phil: (chuckling) I think there’s a way to say it, actually. I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.” Ivan: Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer. Phil: Yeah. Ivan: I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it. Phil: I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order. Ivan: Yeah. Phil: So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack? Ivan: So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit? Phil: Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me? Ivan: Exactly. Phil: I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.” Ivan: Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil. Phil: Great. Ivan: The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.” Phil: Yeah. Ivan: In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners? Phil: I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it? Ivan: So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation? Phil: Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth. Ivan: Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil? Phil: I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you. Ivan: Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to www.philberg.coach . That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast. Phil: My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself. Ivan: And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon . You’re a great co-author. Phil: Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged. Ivan: Back to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

September 9, 2026Episode 97712 min

Episode 977: The Willing Conversation (Classic)

Note: This is a rebroadcast of Episode 748, first published on March 9, 2022. Some links and offers may no longer be valid. Synopsis To receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. To do that, you need to make sure they know these four things. The Needs Assessment Your Unique Selling Proposition Why Are You in Business? What’s Your Emotionally Charged Connection? Listen to Episode 451 and read “ Why You Do What You Do Is Your Key to Success ” for more about Emotionally Charged Connections. What have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share your answers in the comments. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 748 Priscilla: Hello everybody and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am at home in Austin, Texas this week. And, you know, most of our podcasts, almost all of our podcasts, land a post on Wednesday morning. And many of you may not know this, but for the last couple of years, every Wednesday, I have Sam Horn come over in the morning. Sam wrote the book, “POP!” where she mentioned BNI, and that was before I knew Sam. And she also wrote the book, “Someday is Not a Day in the Week.” I talk about Sam and quote her in a number of places. She comes over every Wednesday morning after this podcast goes live. And we do what we call “Writing Wednesday.” But honestly, Priscilla, it’s oftentimes ‘talking’ Wednesday. We talk. We talk a lot about writing, but we talk a lot. And today’s topic is The Willing Conversation. Priscilla: Uh huh. Ivan: And so it’s about talking to people. Do you remember, Priscilla, when you were a kid how fun magnets were to play with? Priscilla: Yes. Ivan: Yeah, I loved magnets. And depending on which way you turn the magnet, they were either attracted or repelled by one another. And as an adult, we may find ourselves feeling six years old again when we make a phone call to a referral, who turns out to not be a referral at all. And similar to a magnet that’s turned the wrong direction, you’re not being embraced in that conversation, you’re being resisted. So the referral you were given that should have been a warm introduction quickly turns into a cold call. We all want good referrals, people who want to talk to us. We want to give and receive referrals that are willing conversations about the products and services that we have to offer. And to receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. So here are four tips that you can follow that will help you with those willing conversations. The first tip is The Needs Assessment . It’s really your responsibility to be very clear; it’s our responsibility – I’ll talk about it with me as well. It’s our responsibility to be very clear and specific with our referral partners about what constitutes a good referral. And this is a combination of an ideal prospect profile and the problems that we can solve for them. Because it’s not just about what you do, it’s about what solutions you have for the people that you’re working with. It’s about what Andy Bounds calls the AFTERs —what are things going to look like after you’ve worked with them. So, the needs assessment really is an example of you clearly defining your target market. So for a corporate coach, as an example, you might say that a small to medium sized company with fewer than 100 employees, closely held business – family owned business, regional with locations, you know, local in a state or two, and that they as a coach provide themselves on higher than average retention, getting companies to have higher than average retention for employees. And they may be in a competitive industry and as an executive coach, you can help them gain an advantage. So, you know, you want to communicate your target market very clearly to the people in your BNI group. Ivan: You also want to describe your Unique Selling Proposition . So do you have dozens or hundreds of competitors in your marketplace? You probably do. And that means that your unique selling proposition, or USP, is really important because it allows you to stand out among your competition. Your USP is a brief description of the purpose of your business. It’s stated in the most concise and compelling way possible in order to help others understand the unique value of what it is that you do. So your unique selling proposition tells people the type of client you like to work with and the benefits that you can provide for them. And what you want to say is what makes what makes you stand out and why that makes you stand out. What do you do that your competition can’t touch? At the very least, figure out what you do better than your rivals and go beyond simply saying ‘good customer service.’ That’s really part of your unique selling proposition – what it is that you have that your competition doesn’t. The third thing is Why Are You in Business? What’s your passion? Why do you go to work? Unfortunately, one of the most popular answers to the question is ‘to make money.’ That’s the worst answer a business professional can ever give. You’ve got to be able to describe why it is that you do what it is that you do. Why are you in your profession? How do you change lives? You know, that’s what the referral partners in your business group, in your BNI chapter, that’s what they want to know. Remember, passion really is referable. You need to go deep and identify your why if you want to truly connect with people on a personal level. The fourth thing is, what is your Emotionally Charged Connection ? Your emotionally charged connection, or ECC, is a phrase leading to a story that your referral partners can recite when referring to you. So for those of you who want to know what my ECC is, what my emotionally charged connection is, go to episode number 451: Why Do You Do What You Do? And in that episode, I shared my emotionally charged connection and why that was so incredibly important to me, and why I do what it is that I do in business. It really stems from that podcast, 451, the experience that I have, from the podcast that I talk about. We all have an ECC, it was something that happened to you, often during childhood, that lays the groundwork for who you are as a person. It can be positive; it can be negative. Many people are not consciously aware of their emotionally charged connection yet, it’s the reason that we get up in the morning and do the things that we do every day. It’s driven by the heart, not by the checkbook, or by the head; there’s a big difference. And I’m going to also include a link in here where you can read about my emotionally charged connection. I did a blog on the same topic and so I’ll have a link here for that blog as well. The bottom line is that the better you become at sharing the information in these tips that I’ve just given you with your BNI group, the more likely you are to feel like the magnet that attracts, instead of the magnet that repels. Your referral partners will be able to give you good referrals that lead to the willing conversation. Well, I have a question for everyone when we’re done here. Priscilla, do you have any thoughts before we wrap up? Priscilla: No, but I haven’t heard this before and I really like what you’re talking about. I don’t remember hearing about the emotionally charged connection. Is that what it is? Ivan: Yeah, well, you were there for me. It was episode number 451. Priscilla: I just made a note. I’m gonna go back and listen to it. Ivan: Go back and listen to it. It was the story — you’ll remember it as soon as I give you a little heads-up. There’s a story about my teacher, Mr. Romero, and asking who wants to be on the student council. Priscilla: Aha, yeah, I remember that. Ivan: Yeah. And that was my emotionally charged connection. Because after that experience, which I’m not going to restate here on this podcast, go back and listen to 451. After that experience with this teacher, who, by the way, changed my life in many ways. After that experience, I realized many years later, that almost every business I’ve ever been drawn to and ever started was about inspiring people or providing people with an opportunity to be their best. And that’s really what BNI is, isn’t it? It’s about giving people an opportunity. You know, you joined BNI, you gotta work. Priscilla: Yeah. Ivan: And I talked about this in the podcast, you know, in 451, it’s not like it was just a gift and I walked away and became successful. It was a gift that I had to work at. It gave me an opportunity, the gift was an opportunity, and that opportunity I had to work really hard at. And from that opportunity, I achieved the level of success in high school. And from that, I realized many, many years later, not at the moment, that that experience led me to try to give other people that experience, to try to give them an opportunity to achieve success. And that’s really what BNI is about. So, go listen to episode 451 everyone. Priscilla: Yeah, I plan to. Ivan: It’s a powerful story. It’s a true story. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, let me ask you a question. I read all of the questions that get posted here, or comments that get posted here on BNI podcast. My question is, what have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share them here on the BNI podcast. That’s everything I’ve got, Priscilla, over to you. Priscilla: That was great. Thank you so much, Ivan. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

September 2, 202612 min

Episode 976: The Difference Between Persistence and Stubbornness

Synopsis Persistence becomes stubbornness when you keep trying the exact thing that didn’t work before. Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. Refine your message, improve your product, test different approaches. Learn to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. Pivoting isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. Hold the Vision. Improve the Execution. Links Listen to Episode 211: Fear of Rejection . Listen to Episode 507: Be a Dog with a Bone . Listen to Episode 975: Your Vision to Success . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 976 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: This is like the longest spell I’ve been home in quite a long time. I went to American Airlines’ Admirals Club on my last trip, and the person at the desk said, “Welcome back, Dr. Misner. Your office is right here.” This is the Admirals Lounge, because I’ve been there so many times. Priscilla: Oh my gosh! Yeah, in the airport, you mean? Ivan: Yeah, in the airport. That’s right. So I now have 2.6 million miles in American Airlines alone. Priscilla: What? Ivan: No joke. 2.6 million. Priscilla: What are you going to do with all those miles? Ivan: Well, I don’t have that many left. I’ve used a lot of them, but that’s how many miles I’ve traveled. Priscilla: Wow. Ivan: I probably have close to a million actually in the bank, and I use [them] mostly for my kids. Priscilla: Yeah, it’s good that y they can use them. They must love it. Ivan: It’s a first world problem, having them. Priscilla: Yeah, right, right, right, right. Ivan: All right, we’ve got a fun topic. Priscilla: Okay, good. Ivan: The difference between persistence and stubbornness. So one of the questions I get asked a lot is about persistence. Many people know that my first major book, and I’ve talked about it in this podcast, was rejected by 44 publishers. Forty-four publishers, and this is back before the Excel spreadsheet. And I literally had a hand-drawn sheet of paper with the publisher’s name and when I sent it, when it was rejected. I had 44 publishers before the 45th one finally said yes, and that was for my first major book, The World’s Best-Known Marketing Secret . And today, that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and it’s in its fourth edition. It has been translated into roughly a dozen languages, and yet it was rejected by 44 publishers. Priscilla: Wow! Ivan: So the question for me is always the same: When does persistence become stubbornness? And at what point is being a dog with a bone too much? Because I tell people I’m a dog with a bone, but there is a point where you know it can be stubbornness, and you have to have discernment here. So that’s a fair question. And here’s how I look at it: persistence isn’t about refusing to quit; it’s about refusing to quit the right way. Now, when I was rejected 44 times, I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. That’s important. I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. I was learning 44 times. Every rejection taught me something. Sometimes it was about the proposal, the letter that I put on the manuscript. Sometimes it was about the positioning. Sometimes it was about the audience that I wanted to have the book focus on and describe that in a letter. Sometimes it was simply about finding a publisher who truly understood the vision of the book. Because if you think back into the early ’90s, there were no books written on networking. I wrote the first book… I did the first book ever written on business networking. So a lot of publishers were like, yeah, this is a fad. That’s what I used to get with the media, by the way: “This BNI thing is a fad,” and that’s certainly what I got. It’s now a fad with, at this moment, over 11,820 chapters at this moment. Quite a fad, and it’s a fad that’s lasted 42, almost 42 years. So, what I’m talking about is, you know, the difference between persistence and stubbornness. Stubbornness says, “I’ll keep doing exactly what I’m doing until someone finally agrees with me.” Persistence says, “I’m committed to the destination, but I’m willing to improve the journey.” Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. And I got some difficult feedback in my submissions, and I changed the manuscript over those 44 attempts. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. Those are important. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. It’s not about just stubbornness; it’s about persistence, but a willingness to alter what you’re doing in that persistence. And with every attempt, you become a little bit better than you were before. Now, let me be clear: you shouldn’t accept every piece of advice you receive. If I had listened to everyone who told me networking was a fad, BNI would have never existed. The trick is learning to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Don’t abandon a great vision because someone doesn’t understand it, but don’t become so emotionally attached to your approach that you refuse to improve it. I’ve often said, and I just said in a recent podcast that we did, hold the vision, not the obstacles. That’s really important. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. I believe that was the recent podcast with Tom Fleming, and it’s a quote that I used in many of my books, starting with The 3rd Paradigm — hold the vision, not the obstacles. Obstacles–they’ll always be there. They were there 42 years ago. They’re there today. They’re going to be there 10, 15, 20 years from now. The obstacles may change. The marketplace will change. Technology will most definitely change. People will come and go throughout your life. There were obstacles yesterday, obstacles today. There’ll be obstacles tomorrow. If you focus on the obstacles, you’ll stop moving. If you hold on to the vision, you’ll find another path. Sometimes the answer isn’t to quit. Sometimes it isn’t even push harder. Sometimes the answer is to pivot, and we’ve certainly seen pivoting a lot with the increase of technology, the internet, AI, other technologies. Certainly, the mobile phone in the 1980s was a pivot point. So a pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. I’m going to repeat that: pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. It means keeping your eyes fixed on where you’re going, while being flexible enough to change how you get there. So looking back, I’m grateful. I’m actually grateful for those first 44 publishers who said no. They forced me to become a better author. They forced me to create a stronger proposal. They forced me to communicate the value of the book more clearly. I ended up with a publisher that eventually, not with that book, but a couple of books later, made me a New York Times best-selling author. So I found the right publisher who believed in me, and believed in my vision, and he helped make me a New York Times best-selling author. Without those previous rejections, I probably wouldn’t have written a book that has endured for decades. I mean, I wrote that book in 1994, so it has literally endured for decades. So here’s my rule: persistence isn’t doing the same thing over and over. Persistence is getting better every time you try. If you’re learning, if you’re improving, and you’re adapting, you’re being persistent. If you’re simply repeating yesterday’s mistakes, you’re not being persistent. You’re just being repetitive. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. I want to repeat that. Stay committed to the vision, but stay flexible about the path. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. If the market keeps telling you no, you don’t ignore it. You interpret it. Don’t confuse rejection with direction. Rejection tells you something needs to change. It doesn’t necessarily tell you the dream is wrong. So here’s a new Ivanism for you, Priscilla. Priscilla: (chuckling) Ivan: Okay, it’s a variation on Hold the Vision, Not the Obstacles. I say Hold the Vision, Improve the Execution . Hold the vision, improve the execution, and that is a healthy way to be a dog with a bone, and to understand the difference between persistence and stubbornness. That’s my message for today, Priscilla. Priscilla: Great, I’m impressed that you were able to kind of bounce back after so many disappointments. Do you have anything to say about that? Ivan: Yeah, there were a lot of disappointments. I mean, every time I got a letter, I was like really excited when it came back. If it came back with a thick envelope, I knew it was a rejection because they didn’t even want to keep the manuscript. They sent it back to me. But you know, when I got the individual letters, I was excited. Is this it? Is this it? And 44 of them, it wasn’t. And one in particular, a publisher was in Los Angeles. It was a major publisher, and they invited me to their office. And I went there, and they said, “Tell me more. We’ve seen your manuscript. Tell me more about the book.” I told them more about the book. I was really excited, and right there, right then, sitting in that moment, they said, “Yeah, no, we’ll pass.” Priscilla: Oh, God! Ivan: And I remember thinking, “I’m never going to be an author.” Priscilla: You never what? Ivan: I mean, I thought that for a moment — I’m never going to be an author. This was my, this was my really big chance. Priscilla: Yeah. Ivan: And I walked out of that meeting, and I was like, oh heck no! That may not have been the words I used. Might have been, oh bad word, bad word, no, um, no. This is a good book. People need this information. They need to know how to build their business through referrals, and I’m going to keep going. I’m going to listen to the advice that they gave. One of the bits of the advice they gave was that I had too much of my doctoral dissertation in it, and it was a little too academic. So, okay, that was a fair comment. And so, I pulled some of the academia out of it, redid the manuscript again, and resubmitted it. Actually, ended up resubmitting it just a few more times before I got my first yes. Priscilla: Mm hmm. Ivan: Well, I know we’re out of time, Priscilla, but that was a great question. Thanks for asking. Priscilla: Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us know how you dealt with that. Okay, well, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for the great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

August 26, 2026Episode 97512 min

Episode 975: Your Vision to Success

Synopsis Envision yourself standing in a field. About 30 feet away is a 30-foot-high wall. That wall is your vision for your business and your life. Ten feet short of your vision is a wall of obstacles. If you can’t see the vision over the obstacles, you get discouraged and give up. Tom Fleming joins the podcast to show you how to grow your vision. Tom Fleming’s model of human motivation Come to BNI membership with a vision, and hold that vision to overcome any obstacles you encounter. That means engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance, one-to-ones, passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Tom’s high-achieving vision as a BNI member is Three one-to-ones per week Three referrals per week Two or three visitors per month. Build a vision for your relationship and your business with every conversation you have in BNI. Try it for six months and see how your results grow with your vision. Links Listen to Tom Fleming’s other BNI Podcast episodes . Listen to Episode 711: Choose the Lens You See the World Through . Listen to Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership . The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 975 Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: Lady Priscilla, it’s wonderful to hear you. Greg Davies from one of the previous podcasts called you Lady Priscilla, I love that. So I might use that moniker every now and then. Priscilla: (chuckling) Okay. Ivan: You’re not a big fan, but I might use it. I am in this hot Austin weather. We looked at my swimming pool gauge, and my swimming pool, not heated, is over 90 degrees [F]. Priscilla: Oh. Ivan: So it’s like a sauna. It’s hot. Priscilla: You can just turn it into your bathtub. Ivan: Yeah, pretty much, yeah, absolutely. So I have a guest today, Tom Fleming. Tom has been on my podcast five previous times. Not too many people have been on the podcast five times. That should tell you something about my opinion of Tom’s contributions to the organization. He served in various leadership roles in BNI, including training owners to track more referrals, from 1996 to roughly 2024, and he continues to impact people’s businesses and lives. He’s now the founder of the Vision Institute. Tom works with business owners to craft a vision for their business and their life, which I think is really important. Within this framework, Tom also supports people with creating a financial vision for themselves with an emphasis on retirement planning. So it’s our goal to make a living and create a life, according to Tom. Tom loves supporting people with creating creating that life. Tom is in Nancy Short’s [BNI] region, and she’s lucky to have him as part of her region. Tom, welcome back to BNI Podcast. Tom: Well, thank you so much, Ivan. And yes, here in Florida, our pool is a little over 90 degrees as well. Ivan: (chuckling) All right, we’re in the same boat, and/or pool actually. Priscilla: (chuckling) Ivan: So we’re going to include a diagram in this podcast so people can see what we’re talking about. Could you explain the diagram that’s in here? Tom: Absolutely, I’d like the listeners to envision themselves just standing in an open field, and about 30 feet away from them is a 30-foot wall, and that wall represents their vision. Their vision of their business and/or their life, if you will. And about 20 feet out, 10 feet short of your vision, is a wall of obstacles, perceived obstacles, if you will. And for some of us, sometimes those perceived obstacles are higher in effect. Therefore, we can’t even see the accomplishment of our vision, and that obviously makes us feel overwhelmed and maybe even depressed and hopeless. But there is a strategy for people in that situation, and the strategy is to decrease their perceived obstacles. And where I shine is in increasing the vision that they have for their business and their life. And I know you have an opinion on this, Ivan. Ivan: And it’s congruent with yours, I believe. Tom: And yours is don’t even pay attention to the obstacles? Ivan: Well, no, no. My perspective on this is: focus on the vision, not the obstacles. The obstacles will always be there. Obstacles were there for BNI in 1985. Obstacles are part of BNI today, obstacles will be around, you know, 20 years from now. So it’s hold the vision. Tom: Mmm. Ivan: This is my philosophy: hold the vision, not the obstacles. Work through, around, over, under, whatever. Work through the obstacles and focus on the vision. Tom: I love it. I love it absolutely. And obviously, people are interested in, “Well, Tom, how does this apply to BNI?” Ivan: Yeah. Tom: And I think a lot of members come into BNI with, well, we’ll see what happens. Ivan: Yeah. Tom: And my thought is, let’s enter our BNI membership with a vision. I know many people who generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from BNI, and I know you know many people who generate millions of dollars, yen, pesos from BNI on an annual basis. I think we have to hold that vision in our mind to overcome what people perceive as obstacles in BNI. Meaning engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance and one-to-ones and passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Ivan: No, I agree. What else? Tom: So really again, it’s about people generating a vision of getting your “twos” or your “threes” on a weekly basis. Investing in three one-to-ones per week, three referrals per week, maybe; two or three visitors per month. Because I think that level of engagement-people being on the field instead of in the stands-that’s when they are going to get results, given the philosophy of Givers Gain. Ivan: Yeah. Can I just say — you mentioned three one-to-ones in a week? I think that’ll burn people out. I’m not opposed to it, but I want people to understand that networking is a marathon, not a sprint. And I would just be ecstatic if people did four a month. Ecstatic. And the numbers show that four a month will double the number of referrals they both give and receive. The average member listening says, “Three?” Three is a big ask, and I don’t want members to burn themselves out. But look, you ran an incredibly successful region, so we can disagree slightly and still be in the same ballpark. Tom: Well, I also mentioned getting your twos, which is yes more aggressive than what you’re sharing. My point is… now, I tend to be a little bit of an overachiever. Ivan: You think? Yes, yes you are, Tom, and that’s a good thing. I wish I had more overachievers like you. Tom: Got it. But you know when I get engaged in something, I’m going to play full out, and I think if a lot of members who had the type of personality or behavior that I have, I think if they engage at that, in that level, realizing that BNI is part of their marketing plan, it’s not something they just belong to, it’s part of their marketing plan, I think their results would double, triple, quadruple. I might recommend to people: try it out for six months — see how it goes. Ivan: Okay, and then what? Tom: Well, I think this model also applies to conversations in BNI. For instance, if I’m meeting with a fellow member, maybe someone who’s in my Contact Sphere, I need to share with them and sell them on the fact that being in a relationship with me is a fantastic investment. Ivan: Yeah. Tom: And we want to build a vision in their mind of what’s possible if we work together. I don’t know if it’s in print anymore, Business by Referral ? Ivan: It’s not, but much of what is in that book is in the fourth edition of The World’s Best Known Marketing Secret . Tom: Excellent, excellent. That book is a goldmine of networking strategy when it comes to 15 ways others can promote you, which that number may have changed; 18 tactics to motivate your sources. I’m going back to my time — back in the day, if you will. But using those strategies to build a vision in the mind of your referral partners of how you can work together to build visibility, credibility, profitability with each other. Again, I just think it’s a goldmine. Ivan: Yeah, and that’s where VCP came from, was that book. Tom: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think bigger picture too. The model just relates to life and business. I think if people have a very small vision of their business, I don’t know what level of engagement they’re willing to put forth towards their business. Versus if we support people with thinking through what’s possible with one’s business, I do believe it… Ivan: Doesn’t this go back to your original conversation about the obstacles? I think people see the obstacles in front of them, and they lose sight of the vision behind those obstacles. Tom: Yes. Ivan: The obstacles they’re always there. I’ve never done anything in business that didn’t have obstacles. And so the key is, like I said earlier, to work around, over, through, under, whatever it takes — hold the vision, not the obstacles. And when you can do that, then you’re going to be successful. I see BNI people that just get caught up in the obstacles, and what happens when they get caught up in the obstacles is that’s all they talk about. And if that’s all they talk about, they become experts at the obstacles… Tom: Absolutely. Ivan: …and not experts at the vision. And so, what people have to do — and that’s why I say hold the vision, not the obstacle, because you want to be an expert at the vision. And the more you can get people to focus on the vision that you’ve got, the more successful that you, as an individual, that a chapter is. Tom: I think your wisdom that you just shared is just kind of a great way to wrap this conversation up. Ivan: Yep, I agree. Is there anything you’d add? I love your graphic. I’ll make sure it gets put into the podcast. You’ve been a great participant in the BNI program for many, many years, and I appreciate everything that you have contributed over the years. Any last thought? Tom: No, just other than thank you for allowing me to continue to contribute via this platform. Whenever I have something that I feel will give members an opportunity to think through a different model or a strategy, I’m happy to contribute and I thank you. Ivan: My pleasure. Your Vision to Success , Tom Fleming. Tom, thanks for being on. Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: Okay, thank you both. That’s great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com . These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time] . All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

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