The Leader's Journey Podcast

Hosted by Jim Herrington & Trisha Taylor

Business Management Marketing Religion Spirituality

Website RSS feed

Episodes

100

Latest episode

Oct 2026

Language

About the show

In each episode, we are going to work to give you one easy to understand concept and tell you at least one story that illustrates the concept being put into practice. The concept will be easy to understand, but it will require your very best self and a good deal of practice over time if you are going to implement it.

Listen to episodes

60 recent

October 24, 202639 min

Who You're Becoming with Chuck DeGroat

In this episode of The Leader's Journey, Trisha Taylor welcomes longtime friend and colleague Chuck DeGroat to discuss his new book, Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age. Together, they explore the importance of character formation in leadership and the ways our past experiences, survival patterns, and the systems around us shape who we become. Chuck shares why meaningful change begins with slowing down, paying attention to our own behavior, and allowing ourselves to be truly known by others. Their conversation offers a thoughtful look at the ongoing work of becoming emotionally healthy leaders who can influence others without causing harm. Guest Bio Chuck DeGroat is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, MI, where he also serves as executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. He is an author, licensed therapist, church consultant, and spiritual director. He and his wife, Sara, have two daughters. Conversation Overview Character Formation and the Gap Between Who We Are and Who We Want to Be Recognizing Survival Patterns and Learning From Our Pain The Importance of Being Known by Others Why Leaders and Helpers Need Their Own Formation Ripening, Maturity, and the Dangers of Rushing Leadership Development Letting Go of Image Management and the Need to Appear Virtuous How Systems and Culture Shape Our Character Slowing Down, Paying Attention, and Becoming More Self-Aware Practicing Reflection as Part of Leadership Development Resources Chuck DeGroat's Website Chuck's New Book - Who You're Becoming: The Slow and Courageous Work of Cultivating Character in a Narcissistic Age Find The Leader's Journey on Youtube

October 13, 202638 min

Triangles: Three-cornered Relationships

In this episode of The Leader's Journey, Mike and Trisha welcome Barbara Laymon for a conversation about triangles in Bowen family systems theory. They explore how triangles are dynamic relationship patterns that influence families, workplaces, and congregations, often carrying tension from one relationship into another. Through biblical stories, personal experiences, and examples from organizational life, the conversation examines how family patterns can follow us into other relationships, how our position in a triangle shapes our reactions, and how systems thinking can help us respond with greater maturity. Conversation Overview Understanding Triangles in Bowen Family Systems Theory How Family Roles and Patterns Carry Into Other Relationships Biblical Examples of Triangles and Sibling Rivalry Emotional Estate Planning and Managing Family Anxiety Changing Our Own Responses Within Relationship Patterns Recognizing Triangles in Workplaces and Congregations Gossip, Exclusion, and the Spread of Anxiety Applying Systems Thinking to Relationships Resources https://theleadersjourney.kit.com/triangles-self-reflection https://www.thebowencenter.org/faculty-bios/barbara-laymon

September 27, 2026Episode 17234 min

Staying Connected Without Losing Yourself: Individuality and Togetherness in Bowen Family Systems

In this episode of The Leader's Journey , Trisha, Mike, and Kathleen discuss individuality and togetherness through the lens of Bowen family systems theory. They explore how these forces shape how people function within families, churches, organizations, and other groups. The conversation examines the difference between true individuality and simply reacting against a group, how anxiety and pressure influence group behavior, and how leaders can create space for people to bring their own thinking into the system. Conversation Overview Individuality, Togetherness Individualism vs Individuality Reactivity and Group Pressure Anxiety and Systems Getting "On the Same Page" Inviting Individual Thinking Leadership and Responsibility Thinking Outside Your Own Mind Creativity and Flexibility in Groups Resources The Leader's Journey Team Building Exercises Everything Isn't Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety and Finally Calm Down True to You: A Therapist's Guide to Stop Pleasing Others and Start Being Yourself The Anxious Overachiever substack Church Leaders Facing Significant Change Program with Edie Lenz

September 17, 2026Episode 17140 min

Flourishing in a Growing Organization

In this episode, Jim and Trisha explore the tension between growth, organizational culture, and human flourishing . They examine how the pace of growth can create burnout, why leaders need to think systemically about the impact of their decisions, and what it might look like to intentionally build organizations around sustainable cultures rather than simply getting bigger. Conversation Overview Growth and Flourishing Organizational Mental Models Growth and Burnout Culture and Organizational Health The Pace of Growth Church Planting and Growth Leadership and Organizational Health Rethinking Growth Resources https://theleadersjourney.kit.com/organizational-growth

August 29, 2026Episode 17037 min

Pain as a Teacher: Leading with Physical Pain

What happens when physical pain becomes part of a leader's everyday life? In this episode, Trisha talks with Warrick Baker about his journey with chronic pain, the cycle that contributed to his condition, and the lessons he has learned. Together, they explore what it means to listen to pain rather than simply trying to make it disappear, and how alignment, balance, grace, and discernment can shape the way we lead. Warrick is the youngest of seven siblings from Baton Rouge, LA. He earned a Bachelor of Science from the University of Southern Mississippi and the Master of Arts and Master of Divinity degrees from Houston Graduate School of Theology. He has been a pastor and community leader in Pearland, TX for more than 20 years. Warrick is passionate about encouraging God's people. He is married to Aundrea Baker, and they have four children. He is the owner of Coach's Construction and has been a long-standing Rotarian. Warrick enjoys spending time with his family, competing as a USA Track and Field Master athlete, and coaching young people in track and field at a national level Conversation Overview Pain as a Part of Leadership The Cycle of Pain Apathy and Atrophy From Injury to Chronic Condition Pain as a Teacher Breaking the Cycle Alignment and Balance Living Beyond Pain Grace and Discernment in Leadership Resources Warrick at The Leader's Journey The Vicious Pain Cycle:

August 15, 2026Episode 16934 min

What Kind of Tired Are You?

Leaders are tired. Not all tiredness is the same, though, and understanding what kind of tired we are experiencing can be an important first step toward meaningful rest and self-care. In this conversation, Trisha and therapist Chelsie Sargent explore the different kinds of fatigue leaders experience, from burnout and compassion fatigue to the exhaustion we create for ourselves by overcommitting, ignoring boundaries, and staying constantly "on." Together, they consider what authentic self-care and rest can look like for leaders. Chelsie Sargent is a Licensed Professional Counselor with a Doctorate of Professional Counseling. She has extensive experience working with individuals, families, teens, and young adults, with a focus on issues including anxiety, depression, trauma, grief, abuse, and anger management. Chelsea is also a Certified Anger Resolution Therapist and has training in the Enneagram and EMDR. Key Takeaways Not All Tiredness Is the Same Burnout, Compassion Fatigue, and "Burn Up" The Fatigue We Create for Ourselves Boundaries and the Window of Tolerance Learning to Turn It Off Getting Unstuck From Other People's Anxiety Treat Yourself vs. Self-Care Caring for Body, Mind, and Soul Making Space for Authentic Rest Resources http://www.chelsiesargentcounseling.com/

July 25, 202635 min

Resilience: Growing Your Pain Tolerance

Resilience is often described as the ability to bounce back from adversity, but what if true resilience is about something much deeper? In this episode, Jim sits down with therapist, author, and speaker Chuck DeGroat to explore resilience through the lens of grace, healing, and spiritual formation. Together they discuss why resilience isn't about powering through hardship, but about allowing ourselves to be transformed by it through honest relationships, self-awareness, and the sustaining presence of God. Dr. Chuck DeGroat is a pastor, therapist, spiritual director, speaker, and author whose work focuses on leadership, spiritual formation, trauma, and emotional health. Through his work, Chuck helps leaders integrate emotional health, faith, and authentic spiritual growth. Conversation Overview Rethinking what resilience really means Grace as the foundation for lasting resilience The role of community in healing and growth Navigating suffering without losing yourself Spiritual practices that cultivate resilience Resources & Links Healing What's Within When Narcissism Comes to Church Wholeheartedness Who You're Becoming - Releasing in October! Chuck's Substack

July 11, 2026Episode 16746 min

The Parenting Paradox: Differentiation-based Parenting With Dr. Jenny Brown

Parenting has never come with more advice, more experts, or more pressure. But what if becoming a healthier parent has less to do with finding the perfect strategy and more to do with becoming a more grounded person? In this episode, Trisha Taylor is joined by Dr. Michael DeRuyter and Dr. Jenny Brown, the author of The Parenting Paradox, to discuss the book and explore what family systems theory teaches about raising resilient children. Together they unpack the tension between caring deeply for our children while resisting the urge to over-function, over-protect, or define our success by our children's choices. Whether you're parenting young children, adult children, grandchildren, or simply navigating important relationships, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective on leading with clarity, connection, and thoughtful conviction. Dr. Jenny Brown is a highly respected family therapist, educator and founder of the Parent Hope Project, a social enterprise dedicated to improving children's wellbeing by strengthening parents. Drawing on decades of clinical practice with the Family Systems Institute , Jenny supports parents, educators and clinicians to understand family dynamics and make meaningful, lasting change. She is the author of The Parenting Paradox and Growing Yourself Up about adult development and relationships. She is also the host of the Parent Hope podcast. Dr. Michael DeRuyter is a pastor, coach and consultant with The Leader's Journey. He has completed four years of postgraduate study at the Bowen Center for the Study of the Family, served as a research fellow studying family systems, and earned a certificate in systems thinking from Cornell University. Mike holds a Doctor of Ministry from Fuller Theological Seminary and has spent more than 15 years helping leaders, parents, and organizations apply Bowen Family Systems Theory to foster greater spiritual, emotional, and relational maturity. Conversation Overview -Parenting Begins with Your Own Growth -Define Your Job Description -Resist Anxiety, Not Connection -Parenting and Technology -Parenting in an Age of Endless Advice -Preparing Children for Life Beyond You Resources Parent Hope Project The Parenting Paradox: Loving Our Children by Giving Them Space to Grow - Jenny Brown Growing Yourself Up, 2nd Edition: How to bring your best to all of life's relationships - Jenny Brown Bowen family systems theory in Christian ministry: Grappling with Theory and its Application Through a Biblical Lens - Jenny Brown, Lauren Errington The Anxious Generation - Jonathan Haidt

June 27, 202639 min

Strengthening Your Immune System - Navigating the System

In the final installment of this series on healthy organizational systems, Trisha and Mac unpack the last three practices from Peter Steinke's work on strengthening an organization's "immune system." Together they explore why healthy leaders focus on process along with content, the entire system, not just symptoms, and direction, not just current condition. Through stories from ministry and organizational leadership, they show how these shifts help leaders move beyond blame, navigate discouragement, and create lasting health instead of chasing quick fixes. Conversation Overview Look Beyond Symptoms Avoid the Trap of Blame Treat Symptoms Like Smoke Alarms Focus on Direction More Than Condition Stay the Course Through Discouragement Lead with Conviction, Not Anxiety Practice Before You Need It Resources How Your Church Family Works - Peter Steinke Healthy Congregations - Peter Steinke Strengthening Your Leadership Immune System - Episode One Growing Through Challenge Over Comfort - Episode Two Find Us On YouTube

June 13, 2026Episode 16333 min

Growing Through Challenge Over Comfort

Growth rarely happens in comfort. In this episode, Trisha and Mac continue their discussion of Peter Steinke's framework for healthy leadership and organizations by exploring the tension between comfort and challenge. They examine why leaders often rush to relieve discomfort, fix problems, or protect people from struggle, and how those instincts can actually undermine growth. Through practical examples from leadership, ministry, parenting, coaching, and personal development, they discuss how resilience is built when leaders create environments where people can stretch, struggle, and mature rather than simply stay comfortable. Conversation Overview Development Requires Struggle Over-Functioning Creates Under-Functioning Challenge Builds Capacity Comfort Can Become a Trap Questions Create Growth Tension Is Necessary for Transformation Move Toward Difficult Conversations Growth Has a Cost Comfort and Compassion Still Matter Resources How Your Church Family Works – Peter Steinke Kathleen Smith - The Anxious Overacheiver