The Leader Learner Podcast

Hosted by Theresa Destrebecq and Vincent Musolino

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Feb 2026

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The Leader Learner podcast is for readers and leaders of all kinds. Theresa and Vincent both work as external learning and development providers to global organizations, supporting them in different ways. In this podcast, they explore what they're learning from and with the organizations that they work with, as well as what they are learning through their own leadership practices.

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February 12, 2026Episode 6930 min

Is connection the content?

Send us Fan Mail Overarching Question: Which is more important, content or connection? Big ideas: Peter Block -- "Connection is the Content" content and connection as an infinity loop different types of connection -- to ideas, to others, and oneself relationship and communication interact with another trust cannot be built without connection delivering content with trust doesn't lead to integration we relate to content differently when there is time for connection you can't just throw content at people and expect them to learn it's hard to measure effectiveness in adult learning video courses have low completion rates because they miss the social aspect diverse groups provide perspective shifts that we can't get alone content can come easily from AI these days "Leave people changed, not just informed." -- Informed is the content piece, changed is the connection piece Perspectival knowing -- creating knowing that shifts your perspective knowledge needs context to be meaningful reading has become the exception to doomscrolling reading keeps people engaged in a topic over a long period of time when you connect with the content you're more engaged and motivated content in itself is useless without the connection piece shelf development -- when the knowledge/change stays on the shelf without trust you can't connect, without connection you can't trust - a feedback loop If a leader embodies the "connection is the content" idea, what does that mean for them? connection embedded into all the content a process doesn't necessarily create the connection breakout rooms are a structure that facilitate connection put people into breakout rooms as they arrive to simulate the slow entering into a live space content without connection is information content is embedded in the conversation -- people are a source of content too More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

January 9, 2026Episode 6835 min

Is Listening Over-rated?

Send us Fan Mail THEME : Is listening overrated? CONVERSATION POINTS: people think they are better communicators/listeners than they are listening is a very under-rated skill, and one to keep practicing knowledge is not opinion context shifts how we listen to people everyone deserves the right to be heard, but we don't have to take on board what they have to say listening without questioning what is true and what is not - practice discernment we listen through our own lens and biases What's the balance between listening to someone's opinion and sharing your own? when we give advice too soon, we may not be solving the right problem Are there contexts when we shouldn't listen? laws do not protect all people and do not represent all voices power dynamics affect people's listening who "has to" do the listening? when ego gets in the way of listening? higher ups need to spend more time listening to the people who actually know -- the experts when big companies enter into environments against the wishes and values of the citizens we are all capable of listening, but we don't practice and don't use the skill wisely the dyanmic of you're not listening to me, so I won't listen to you our ability to influence to change depends on our listening listen to ask better questions -- instead of thinking "that doesn't make any sense," ask a question to make sense train our listening every day deep listening to things we don't value is very challenging the righteousness that goes along with not listening People not voting based on policy, but on who listens best The skill of listening is crucial Listening as a skill that goes out the window when we are emotionally triggered More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

December 9, 2025Episode 6734 min

Does Defiance Have a Place at Work?

Send us Fan Mail TOPIC: Do you think we should punish defiance in organizations? BIG IDEAS: defiance appreciated in different cultures - in France it shows you're thinking critically power dynamics that are at play when talking about defiance defy and comply isn't a binary most of us were raised to believe that compliance was good and defiance was bad defiance can be good when it aligns with our values consent is when you have the capacity, knowledge we comply without having the knowledge false defiance - you go along with something that isn't aligned with your values conscious compliance -- where we're consciously going with something that's against your values because the risk is too high to comply there is often a long build up to defiance recognize the moments when I'm consciously complying not wanting to be the "complainer" when being harassed - risks too great for career people from marginalized groups have a great risk when defying looking to any ally from a more powerful social group to defy for you saying "no" to people's behavior and setting boundaries he-peating -- when a man repeats a woman's ideas, and others praise him over her How should companies deal with defiance? getting curious about the defiance - look at practices and processes that are outdated look at gaps between personal values and organizational values - how do we reconcile gaps in values Are values stated, but not practiced? people can value the same thing, but how they demonstrate those values can differ look at the behaviors over the stated values of an organization emotional, psychological, physical, financial risks when it comes to defiance and compliance if there is a values misalignment between you and the organization, you choose a principled exit Is doing values exercises a pointless and dangerous exercise because you will never have alignment? the word defy has a moral connotation in French when people take your defiance to a process as a personal attack How do you defy but still stay loyal to the organization? it's hard to argue with someone's values standing on your moral high ground makes the other person wrong using your values as a launch pad for your defiance build around a common need finding the nuanced way to defy - it doesn't have to be big and bold when you're at work, you're in a dependent relationship, so there are inherent risks the difference between protesting and striking RESOURCES: Defy by Dr. Sunita Sah Non Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

November 13, 2025Episode 6631 min

Are Gen Z the Me, Me, Me Generation?

Send us Fan Mail QUESTION: Are Gen Z Me, Me, Me? BIG IDEAS: Lots of complaints from a team leader around respect for him and org. His belief that his younger team members are overconfident and think they are superior Do leaders need to prioritize the organization over themselves Leaders looking for themselves in future leaders (projection) Generalizations around generations We tend to overestimate when people were born, but what they went through and where are they now in their lives that make a difference What 25-year-old prioritizes the organization over themselves? Gen Z were hit really hard by Covid, and it defines how we see the world Perception that Gen Z lacks patience and don't want to put in the work Dunning Krueger Effect or status quos on timelines? Learning can happen much faster, but they lack experience When we judge others for judging, we are judging too Is it a lack of patience? Envy and resentment growing -- wish to have the attitude that Gen Z has Tension between the "new way" and the "old way" COVID shifted priorities for people, yet companies want to go back to the way things were (working in the office being a top priority) What does it mean to "go back to normal"? "That's the way we've always done it," can get in the way of growth Adapt rather than fight it Equity of treatment across generations and work preferences It's not about working 50% versus, it's about working 50% or leaving the company We only need to love 20% of our work to find meaning in all of our work Only 14% of people are engaged -- how is that measured? Are we asking too much of people for their work? How much is the perception of engagement valid across generations? How much show off and show me rose due to the self facing camera? Over praising leading to overconfidence Instead of keeping them down, give them the opportunity to safely fail Seeing the gray area between people's truths RESOURCES MENTIONED: Podcast || Social Science Bites - Episode on Generational Myths Book || Love + Work by Marcus Buckingham Book || Think Again by Adam Grant More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

October 30, 2025Episode 6535 min

The Leadership Garden

Send us Fan Mail TOPIC : If leadership training is dead, how do companies still develope leaders? Big Ideas: Learning experiences can happen without training Learning that happens in community can have a bigger impact Learning happens in a spiral -- you have to come back to it again and in different ways. Learning happens across multiple axis across time, not linearly Leadership learning can happen below the surface before people can see it Creating a non-threatening environment -- psychological safety Put something in the community basket There is no lever for learning - you can just pull and it emerges Leadership as an emergent property, rather than something that can be directly developed How does the hierarchical structure of training impeding leadership training? Focus on the process of learning, rather than the delivering of content and information. Practice versus training? "Knowledge isn't wisdom. Wisdom in knowledge in action." Give people a space to activate the information. Everyone sparks at different times. Creating self-fulfilling frameworks that can be peer generated after wards Some models can be reciprocated, but the experience may not be the same Small moments of connected learning keeps the learning alive - the more exposure to the ideas, the more your Reticular Activation System is activated How do we assess whether a learning experience is effective? If leadership training is so great, why do we still have the same number of problems we have? Does success always mean rising in an organization? If everyone can be a leader, how do I choose the next leader? Managing and leading aren't the same skill set. Promoting people who aren't good at their jobs, but are still potential leaders. Sometimes we are short-sighted about leadership development Garden metaphor -- plant some seeds, nurture, see what grows, adapt based on what you see More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

October 15, 2025Episode 6434 min

Leadership Isn't a Checkbox

Send us Fan Mail TOPIC : Is leadership training dead? BIG IDEAS: creating a learning experience without training/teaching people training gives people a chance to not take responsibility - they are following the training people are happy after a training, but change long term is limited attempt to get manager and HR involved in training, but it didn't work clients/customers want training, but don't take the time to reflect on what they need time is a barrier to implementation of oversight of training Peter Principle -- people rise to the level of their competence great individual contributors don't always make great leaders leadership is nuanced and doesn't follow a checklist training doesn't personalize the learning to where/who they are provide the spark, get people more emotionally involved in the change connecting the theory, to the emotions, to create the behavior change leadership is the state of being a leader, not a skill bringing the manager in was an attempt to reinforce the training making leadership experiences voluntary versus obligatory internally motivated learning is more impactful letting go of agendas and objectives -- some structure, but give space for what arises from the participants leadership can't be taught, but it can be developed humans and leadership are too complex to be taught leadership has an emotional component getting stuck in what you're supposed to do, rather than reading the "room" and adapting to the situation in front of you letting go of the idea of needing "tools" as a leader internal motivation of being a leader BOOKS MENTIONED: The Power of Moment, Chip and Dan Heath More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

February 13, 2025Episode 937 min

S04E09- Shake the Tree with Valentina Tacchino

Send us Fan Mail 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office 📚 GUEST READER : Valentina Tacchino 💬 CONVERSATION HIGHLIGHTS: the book is very portable -- you can dip in and out how girls/women are educated to be "nice" and certain behavior were educated with not making the most for them in an office environment when being too "nice" can prevent us from standing up for ourselves or voicing our opinions student behaviors don't work in an office environment the cultural conventions and unwritten rules in within a work environment not wanting to confirm and "erase" yourself the book not asking women to be like men, but does invite you to reflect on your behaviors in relation to what men do or don't do make any book you read yours - don't follow it to the letter retaining your own personality and consciousness into reading and applying the book ask yourself what type of manager and leader you want to be unwritten rules come with any organization or community - hours in the office, dress codes, etc. many companies spell out the culture now, but at the time it wasn't like that wearing clothes that match your personality along with the unwritten rules of the industry sometimes you need to compromise on some things to make it easier for everyone mentoring people without telling people what to do having to change how I spoke to fit into the culture -- how you sound, how you project, when to participate, managing up, etc. not saying yes just because someone is your boss standing in your strength and in your values life and death moments in your career taking time and energy to find the way when saying "no" can nourish a relationship, rather than end it no is a powerful word in many contexts getting curious about someone's "no" personal gratification is what will keep us going shaking the tree, but not uprooting the tree ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Valentina Tacchino leads a team focused on wealth management for international clients at LGT Wealth Management. She looks after UK resident, not living in the UK and clients moving to the UK. https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentina-tacchino-488b2a26/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

January 9, 2025Episode 846 min

S04E08 Incongruence and The Smush (with Lucy Chambers)

Send us Fan Mail 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Unbound by Kasia Urbaniak 📚 GUEST READER : Lucy Chambers 💬 CONVERSATION HIGHLIGHTS: when managing 2 opposing views together ( a Taoist Nun and a Dominatrix) power is connected to our attention and where we direct it Dominant Position - attention out Submissive Position - attention in Link to coaching and coaches not setting the agenda power is about influence and nothing else both types of attention have value "The SMUSH" - when we flip flop between the two states of attention, or we have a foot in each state Incongruence occurs when our words don't match our energy - when we soften our words based on society's expectations on us People can smell intention - our animal body speaks more than we know/believe Manipulation - women get seen as this more often than men. Women fall into this SMUSH more often than men. Learning to ask from a place of grounded legitimacy. Socialized that asking correlates with weakness We can't have an impact and play big if we aren't willing to ask for what we want/need "I am not having a conversation with _____________ about ___________." Asking exposes our edges. Connecting our requests to our universal human needs. Asking creates an opportunity for others and gives them a new role in their life Be as specific as you can when making requests. The half ask is the SMUSH. Wanting people to read our minds doesn't work. We have a poor vocabulary for how we feel. Ideas need to be nourished. Allowing our asks to delight other people as they fulfill them. When our asks create a WIN-WIN. Asking takes vulnerability The toxic side of the independent woman - we don't have to do it all alone, and we are biologically leaned to connect with others. We don't create power siting alone in a room, but through connecting with others. Spend time taking things in and putting things out in the world. 📚 OTHER BOOKS/RESOURCES MENTIONED: Imogen Roy Playing Big by Tara Mohr The Art of Asking by Amanda Palmer Video Series : The Basics of Non-Violent Communication with Marshall Rosenberg Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara How to Start a Mistress Group Workbook ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Lucy Chambers is an anti-overwhelm coach and facilitator working on breaking old, broken patterns to create space for new great things. You can find and follow her at: https://facilitationmindset.substack.com/ https://www.facilitationmindset.com/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

December 5, 2024Episode 743 min

S04E07 Live, Love, Learn and Leave a Legacy (with Maha Bali)

Send us Fan Mail 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : First Things First by Stephen R. Covey 📚 GUEST READER : Maha Bali 💬 CONVERATION HIGHLIGHTS: it's a life management book and how to prioritize imagining the end of your life and what people will say about you Live, Love, Learn and Leave a Legacy visualization where you attend your own funeral when what is written on paper and what you do in real time does not match Do our personal goals interfere with our institution's goals? Switch careers in order to focus on learning and leaving a legacy You don't need to be balanced in all areas at all times - you might focus more on love in some phases of your life and then lean into learning and legacy in other phases when strong emotional labor in our work affects the rest of our life when we pursue a legacy that isn't ours education systems all have their issues when our pain points direct our passions and desire to "fix" things later in life restart works for more than computers and electronics leaning into what brings you joy opportunity gaps can cause us to choose a certain path, even if it doesn't fit for us when your value as a person is not remunerated financially within society reading books by only one demographic can be limiting reading things from different cultures takes additional reflection interacting with people from different cultures helps us understand other identities when you read a book by someone who lived it versus reading a book by someone who has observed the same experience when our looks and names get in the way of full assimilation in a country empathy to others oppression as an outside observer not forcing people into our language dynamics sharing learning with others and giving it freely share questions, not just the answers worry about giving the wrong knowledge 📚 OTHER BOOKS/RESOURCES MENTIONED: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey Mindvalley - Speak and Inspire Course Lisa Nichols Belong - Radha Agrawal Emergent Strategy - adrienne marree brown Imagination : A Manifesto - Ruha Benjamin The Art of Gathering - Priya Parker The Message by Ta-Nehisi Coates ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Maha Bali is Professor of Practice at the Center for Learning and Teaching at the American University in Cairo. She has a PhD in Education from the University of Sheffield, UK. She is co-founder of virtuallyconnecting.org (a grassroots movement that challenges academic gatekeeping at conferences) and co-facilitator of Equity Unbound (an equity-focused, open, connected intercultural learning curriculum, which has also branched into academic community activities Continuity with Care , Socially Just Academia , a collaboration with OneHE: Community-building Resources and MYFest , an innovative 3-month professional learning journey. She writes and speaks frequently about social justice, critical pedagogy, and open and online education. She blogs regularly at https://blog.mahabali.me and tweets @bali_maha. For Maha’s list of peer-reviewed publications, see here. For Maha’s list of keynotes and invited talks, see here. More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

November 21, 2024Episode 647 min

S04E06 Turn a Sacred Wound Into a Sacred Scar

Send us Fan Mail 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Wild Mind by Bill Plotkin 📚 GUEST READER : Andrei Stoicescu 💬 CONVERATION HIGHLIGHTS: growing from a place of unknowing not knowing where/when you will learn - it can happen at any time we often forget that we are a part of nature eco-psychology lens we live in an ecosystem and don't recognize our interdependence eco-centric -- start from the place of recognizing the nature and niche around us you can work with metaphor without understanding it you can live beyond knowledge and understanding you don't know what "cold" is before you experience it we communicate through our energy, not just our words Four facets of the self - Interpersonal View of the Self Feeling Things Using your Senses Using our Intellect Using our Imagination What happens if these facets are mature/immature? Many of us are stuck in perpetual adolescence We often develop our facets based on what the world needs of us at the time Knowing your mature facet, and look toward the other facets to help you grow Miscommunication can occur when our strong facets collide with other facets What happens on your team when it's dominated by certain archetypes/facets? Dysfunction on teams occurs when we don't understand ourselves more deeply, and those of our colleagues Meet yourself from the different facets and treat yourself with compassion Shifting our strategies that worked in childhood that don't work as adults Improve your leadership not through tactical ways, but through self-exploration Beginner's mind and humility in leadership Look for the patterns in your life Seeing the gift in the other facets of of self All of us have a "wounded self" - can we have compassion for our self and that of others Turn a sacred wound into a sacred scar Break the promises you made to yourself when you were young When we choose not to do the work, we pay in non-financial ways, so why not pay someone to help you do the work. 📚 OTHER BOOKS MENTIONED: Soul Craft , also by Bill Plotkin ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Born in an industrial town of a soon to come out of communism Romania, I fell in love with books and stories in primary school. I have loved music and singing for as long as I can remember and I dabbled with acting until I went to university. I left Architecture after 4 years of studies (out of 6) and quit working in Architecture and Design (after 5 years), started doing odd jobs until, at 25, I ended up in a (then) more than 100.000 employee corporation where I received an Employee of the Year award (in my service center) after my first year for opening a new business line. I joined a (then) small ESG Research provider as an Engineer and worked my way up to Director of Engineering in 4 years. Even before the pandemic came I felt that I need a shift in how I approach things in life so I quit climbing the corporate ladder and started studying Philosophy and Psychology. I hold the same position with my employer and do my best to be there with my team, colleagues and friends. I continued to make music throughout my life and am now working to create my own music-oriented company that will hopefully launch next year. LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrei-stoicescu/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm