The Agency Profit Podcast

Hosted by Parakeeto, Marcel Petitpas

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225

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Jun 2026

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About the show

Welcome to the Agency Profit Podcast hosted by Marcel Petitpas, CEO and Co-Founder of Parakeeto. Finally, an agency podcast that isn't JUST about getting more clients. On the show, we bring in experts, agency owners and consultants to share their actionable tips for improving profitability and operational efficiency. Here, you'll learn what systems to implement in your business, what kind of KPI's to track, and benchmarks to aim for. How to manage things like capacity, utilization, billing rates, processes and procedures, what tools to use, mistakes to avoid and so, so much more. If you're tired of putting out fires, working long hours, and growing revenue but not profits, you're in the right place.

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June 4, 202641 min

Shifting From Operator to Owner, With Jason Swenk

Points of Interest 00:00 – 02:12 – Jason Swenk's Agency Journey: Jason shares how he accidentally started an agency in 1999, grew it to more than 100 employees, sold it after 11 years, and eventually transitioned into coaching agency owners worldwide. 02:12 – 06:22 – Designing a Lifestyle Business: Jason explains how agency owners often aspire to more freedom and flexibility, sharing how he structures his own workweek and prioritizes experiences outside of work. 06:23 – 10:14 – Escaping the Operator Trap: Jason introduces an exercise that helps founders identify the tasks they dislike and begin designing their business around their strengths instead of remaining stuck in daily operations. 10:15 – 13:19 – The Manager Stage and Delegation Challenges: The conversation explores why many founders struggle after hiring employees and how poor delegation often creates more work rather than less. 13:20 – 16:50 – Building Trust and Better Decision-Making: Jason explains the 1-3-1 framework for problem solving and discusses how leaders can develop trust while allowing team members to learn through small mistakes. 16:51 – 19:41 – The CEO Identity Shift: The discussion focuses on how founders must evolve their role as the business grows, moving from execution toward vision, coaching, and strategic leadership. 19:42 – 22:17 – Becoming an Architect: Jason outlines the Architect stage, where leaders create systems, processes, and frameworks that allow teams to operate independently without constant oversight. 22:18 – 24:09 – AI as a Founder Knowledge System: The conversation explores how agency owners can use AI to capture expertise, document decision-making processes, and reduce dependency on the founder. 24:10 – 27:31 – Avoiding the Rubber Band Effect: Jason explains how founders often sabotage growth by reverting to old habits and stepping back into roles their team is capable of handling. 27:32 – 30:31 – The Difference Between CEO and Owner: The discussion examines the Owner stage, where the business no longer relies on the founder for day-to-day decisions and leadership functions. 30:32 – 34:30 – Growing Leaders Within the Organization: Jason shares insights on helping employees develop their own careers while recognizing that not everyone wants to move into leadership positions. 34:31 – 41:02 – Building a Business Around Your Goals: The episode concludes with Jason discussing his book, Operator to Owner, and emphasizing that agency owners should intentionally design businesses that align with their desired lifestyle and ambitions. Show Notes Agency Mastery Website Operator to Owner book details Smart Agency Masterclass Podcast The Seth Godin Episode Upcoming Events Epic Friday Jason Swenk on LinkedIn Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

May 20, 202635 min

Cash Flow & The Future of AI, With Colin Hewitt

Points of Interest 00:00 – 01:00 – Introduction: Marcel welcomes Colin Hewitt, CEO and founder of Float, and frames cash flow as the lifeblood every agency depends on. 01:01 – 02:09 – The Origin of Float: Colin shares how running his own agency exposed the limits of spreadsheet-based forecasting and led him to build a cash flow product for service businesses. 02:10 – 05:24 – Direct vs Indirect Cash Flow Methods: A look at why traditional P&L-derived forecasts age the moment they are finished, and how a hybrid direct method delivers a forecast owners can trust day-to-day. 05:24 – 07:31 – Why Agency Cash Flow Is Uniquely Complex: Retainers, milestone billing, and time-and-materials projects each behave differently — modeling them well requires more nuance than most generic tools provide. 07:32 – 09:09 – The Trade-Offs of Outsourcing the Forecast: When forecasting is handed off entirely, owners often lose the context behind the numbers and end the month more confused than clear. 09:09 – 12:48 – Precision vs Accuracy in a Forecast: Colin and Marcel discuss the tension between infinitely precise forecasts and forecasts that owners will actually maintain — and how to find the right level for the business. 12:48 – 14:07 – Mapping Budgets to the Accounting System: A deliberate separation between transactional accounting detail and forward-looking budget categories keeps the forecast usable without doubling the work. 14:07 – 16:54 – Cash Flow Strategy When Things Get Tight: Visibility into the next 30, 60, and 90 days lets owners distinguish a temporary blip from a structural issue — and decide what to push, chase, or restructure. 16:54 – 18:47 – Pulling Cash Forward and Deferring Expenses: A short walk-through of practical levers — invoice financing, payment timing, expense sequencing — and a pointer to a deeper episode on the topic. 18:47 – 21:10 – AI's Impact on Software and Agencies: Colin reflects on what is changing for SaaS founders and what is opening up for agencies as the cost of building software falls. 21:10 – 23:43 – Where Software Moats Hold Up in an AI World: A candid view on which products remain defensible — auditability, trust, collaboration — and which become commoditized prompts. 23:43 – 27:23 – When Conversational Interfaces Replace UIs: A near-future where owners interact with agents instead of dashboards, and the underlying systems quietly stay in sync. 27:23 – 30:43 – Sustainability and Boundaries Around AI Work: A frank conversation about the pull of constant tinkering, the risk of AI-driven bloat, and the case for considered, well-crafted decisions. 30:43 – 35:20 – Speed vs Velocity, and Closing Thoughts: When everything can be built, the discipline shifts to choosing what to build — and Colin shares where listeners can follow along with Float. Show Notes Float Website Colin Hewitt on LinkedIn The Definitive Guide to Improving Your Agency's Cash Flow with Carson Pierce – Ep.210 Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

May 6, 202637 min

Inside a Boutique Agency Holdco, With Sei-Wook Kim

Points of Interest 00:01 – 00:38 – Introduction: Marcel introduces Sei-Wook Kim, co-founder of Barrel and Barrel Holdings, highlighting his experience building and scaling multiple agencies. 00:38 – 01:31 – What Barrel Holdings Does: Sei-Wook explains their holdco structure, managing a portfolio of independent, specialized marketing agencies with a long-term acquisition strategy. 01:31 – 03:31 – Origin of the Holdco Model: The conversation explores how Barrel evolved from a single agency into multiple businesses through spin-offs and organic opportunities. 03:31 – 04:56 – Shift from Incubation to Acquisition: Sei-Wook shares why they moved from building agencies from scratch to acquiring established firms to accelerate growth. 04:56 – 06:07 – Independent Portfolio vs Roll-Up Strategy: They discuss why Barrel Holdings avoids the traditional roll-up model in favor of independently operated agencies with separate P&Ls. 06:07 – 07:31 – Long-Term Investment Philosophy: Sei-Wook explains their long-term hold strategy, focusing on durability, adaptability, and avoiding short-term exit pressure. 07:31 – 09:09 – Capital Strategy and Self-Funding: The discussion covers their decision to fund acquisitions through internal capital and debt rather than external investors. 09:09 – 12:52 – What Makes an Agency Attractive: Sei-Wook outlines key acquisition criteria, including specialization, recurring revenue, and strong leadership teams. 12:52 – 15:06 – Challenges in Financial Diligence: They break down common issues in agency financials, including inconsistent revenue tracking and unclear cost structures. 15:06 – 17:29 – Understanding True Profitability: The conversation highlights how to normalize owner compensation and adjust financials to reflect true EBITDA. 17:29 – 21:01 – Operating Model and Performance Metrics: Sei-Wook explains their weekly and quarterly cadence, including key metrics like revenue, expenses, and pipeline forecasting. 21:01 – 35:43 – Forecasting, Scaling, and the Impact of AI: The episode closes with insights on forecasting discipline, scaling leadership across multiple agencies, and how AI may reshape agency value and delivery. Show Notes Sei-Wook Kim on LinkedIn Peter Kang on LinkedIn Agency Habits Website Barrel Holdings Website Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

April 22, 202637 min

Profitability Sequencing: How Agencies Maximize Margins, With Kristen Kelly

Points of Interest 00:01 – 02:30 – The Cost of Poor Sequencing: Marcel and Kristen introduce the core issue—agencies often apply the right tactics in the wrong order, leading to wasted effort and stalled profitability. 02:30 – 05:00 – The Insight Formula: They explain that data alone is meaningless without context, introducing the key concept that insight comes from comparing expectations to reality. 05:00 – 06:30 – Start with a Business Model: Agencies should begin by building a model of their business to define what success should look like before measuring performance. 06:30 – 08:30 – The Danger of Starting with Data: Many firms overinvest in tracking actuals first, only to realize they lack the benchmarks needed to interpret the data effectively. 08:30 – 10:30 – Why Expectations Come First: Establishing expectations is faster, requires no new data, and is essential for designing meaningful feedback loops. 10:30 – 12:30 – Misguided Pricing and Benchmarking: Agencies often rely on market benchmarks instead of internal cost structures, leading to misaligned pricing and profitability issues. 12:30 – 14:30 – Framework vs. Frankenstein Metrics: Combining disconnected industry formulas creates inconsistent and unreliable financial insights, highlighting the need for a unified framework. 14:30 – 17:00 – Forecasting as the Next Step: Once a model is established, agencies must forecast workload and capacity, starting with clear scope and effort assumptions. 17:00 – 20:00 – The Precision Trap in Forecasting: Overly detailed planning creates friction and reduces adaptability; executive-level forecasting should prioritize accuracy over precision. 20:00 – 22:30 – The Power of Forecasting Without Time Tracking: A strong forecast can provide meaningful insight even without detailed time-tracking data. 22:30 – 25:30 – Installing Feedback Loops: Feedback loops help refine assumptions and uncover operational issues by comparing planned vs. actual performance. 25:30 – 30:00 – Prioritizing Profitability Levers: Marcel outlines the correct order for improving profitability—starting with overhead (if needed), then utilization, followed by pricing (effective rate), and finally cost structure. Show Notes Connect with Kristen via LinkedIn Free Agency Toolkit Parakeeto Foundations Course Free access to our Model Platform Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

April 8, 202646 min

Growing Through M&A in the Age of AI, With Peter Lang

Points of Interest 00:01 – 00:38 – Introduction: Marcel opens the episode by introducing Peter Lang as an entrepreneur, investor, and operator deeply focused on mergers and acquisitions. 01:00 – 02:13 – From Holding Company to Teaching M&A: Peter explains that he now runs a holding company, invests in assets including agencies, and is focused on teaching other founders how to acquire and grow businesses. 02:41 – 06:09 – How an Agency Owner Became Obsessed with Acquisitions: Peter shares how an early interest in corporate finance, investing, and business ownership evolved alongside accidentally building a digital agency. 06:34 – 09:23 – The First Deal and the Power of a Motivated Seller: Peter recounts the unusual acquisition that pulled him into M&A, showing how urgency, creative deal structure, and downside protection shaped his first major transaction. 09:44 – 12:25 – Why Buying Can Be Faster Than Building: Peter reflects on completing 21 transactions and argues that acquiring existing cash flow is often easier than spending years building the same result organically. 12:34 – 15:13 – Why More Founders Still Do Not Pursue Acquisitions: Marcel and Peter discuss the real barriers to M&A, including fear, lack of information, false beliefs, and the failure to consistently make time for acquisition work. 15:20 – 18:28 – Risk Versus Risky Behavior in M&A: Peter explains the difference between unavoidable business risk and reckless decision-making, emphasizing that preparation, education, and structure are what reduce exposure. 19:07 – 23:19 – Diligence, Integration, and What Buyers Are Really Acquiring: The conversation shifts to best practices in deals, with Peter stressing that due diligence and post-close integration matter more than the excitement of signing the deal itself. 23:19 – 28:12 – How to Evaluate Culture Before an Acquisition: Peter outlines why cultural fit must be measured, not guessed, using tools like NPS, eNPS, personality frameworks, and manager-role alignment to avoid poor integrations. 28:12 – 32:00 – The Great Wealth Transfer Creates a Major Opportunity: Marcel and Peter discuss how retiring owners and succession gaps are creating a historic supply of businesses that need buyers over the next two decades. 32:00 – 36:21 – How AI Is Changing Seller Behavior and Buyer Strategy: Peter explains that AI is accelerating uncertainty for agency owners, which may push more founders to sell while also reshaping what makes a business attractive to buyers. 36:38 – 45:45 – Why AI-Forward Agencies and Programmatic Buyers Will Win: Marcel and Peter close by exploring why service businesses remain resilient, why agencies still have a future, and why buyers who combine acquisitions with AI adaptation will likely outperform. Show Notes Connect with Peter via LinkedIn Website: Scale your agency with Mergers & Acquisitions Love the Podcast Leave us a review here Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

March 25, 202630 min

Implications of Agency Founder Bottlenecks and How to Fix Them, With Kristen Kelly

Points of Interest 00:01 – 00:37 – Introduction: Marcel and Kristen open the episode by introducing a more philosophical discussion about why Parakeeto’s work matters beyond the surface-level goal of improving profitability. 00:37 – 02:01 – The provocative reframe: Kristen references Marcel’s recent message, “you don’t actually care about profitability,” and frames the conversation around why that idea sits at the center of a broader positioning shift. 02:01 – 03:59 – Profit is not the full story: Marcel explains that Parakeeto has become very good at talking about profitability tactically, but has not spent enough time explaining why profitability matters in the first place. 04:17 – 07:05 – The ‘Dig’ process and brand clarity: Marcel shares how a day spent with his friend Rich, using a branding exercise called the Dig, helped reveal that Parakeeto’s messaging had been missing the emotional and philosophical “why.” 07:17 – 10:13 – Business as a vehicle for social change: Marcel outlines his belief that well-run, for-profit businesses are one of the most powerful tools for creating positive change because they solve problems, create jobs, and enable founders to do more good. 10:13 – 11:31 – Profitability as the ‘so that’: The conversation reframes profitability as an enabling condition rather than the end goal, since most agency owners ultimately want freedom, creative fulfillment, stability, and a healthy team. 11:31 – 14:43 – Escaping agency trauma: Marcel explains that many agency founders are not chasing profit obsessively, but are trying to avoid repeating the burnout-driven, exploitative culture they experienced in traditional agency environments. 15:19 – 19:08 – Why profitability is hard to own: Marcel breaks down the structural challenge that profitability touches finance, operations, sales, and leadership, yet rarely belongs clearly to any one role inside the agency. 19:11 – 21:38 – Empowered, fearless, and abundant: Marcel shares that the word he landed on for how he wants clients to feel is “empowered,” along with “fearless” and “abundant,” reflecting the confidence that comes from financial clarity. 22:44 – 26:13 – A more complete solution for the money side: Marcel describes how this reframe is pushing Parakeeto toward a more holistic offering, including the possibility of integrating accounting and bookkeeping more directly. 26:31 – 28:09 – Removing title confusion for clients: The discussion highlights how confusing the financial services landscape can be for founders, who are often left trying to decode titles like CFO, accountant, consultant, and ops lead just to solve one problem. 28:41 – 30:11 – The closing takeaway: Marcel closes by reinforcing that the goal is not money for money’s sake, but getting money out of the way so agency owners can build the business, team, and impact they originally set out to create. Show Notes Connect with Kristen via LinkedIn Free Agency Toolkit Parakeeto Foundations Course Free access to our Model Platform Love the Podcast Leave us a review here Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

March 11, 202641 min

How to Build an Anti-Fragile Agency, With Brent Weaver

Points of Interest 00:00 – 03:21 – From UGURUS to E2M: Brent Weaver shares how he went from coaching thousands of agencies at UGURUS to becoming CEO of E2M Solutions after the DigitalOcean chapter ended. 03:35 – 04:51 – What makes E2M different: Marcel frames E2M as a standout white-label partner, and Brent explains why serving only agencies creates sharper focus on partner success. 04:51 – 08:16 – Process flexibility as a moat: Brent contrasts “one standardized process” versus adapting to each agency partner’s SOPs and tools and why fitting into the partner’s workflow improves outcomes. 08:27 – 10:08 – Why anti-fragility matters right now: Marcel connects E2M’s adaptability to the broader need for agencies to stay resilient through another major disruption cycle. 10:08 – 12:01 – Defining anti-fragility in business terms: Brent explains anti-fragility as building a business that can withstand shocks by avoiding fragility drivers like thin margins and operational vulnerabilities. 12:01 – 15:53 – Practical fragility reducers: Brent outlines concrete levers, higher margins as a buffer, less debt, fewer single points of failure, and building teams and systems that scale. 13:29 – 15:53 – Perennial value drivers: Brent argues agencies should anchor decisions to what clients always want, faster delivery, lower cost, and higher quality and certainty, regardless of the economy. 15:53 – 18:01 – Investing under uncertainty: Marcel reframes strategy as betting on what will not change and asks how agencies can choose investments that will keep paying dividends. 18:01 – 22:44 – AI audits, not shiny tools: Brent describes E2M’s AI assessment approach as constraint-hunting, then using automation and process optimization to reduce friction and accelerate results. 23:08 – 25:02 – High-impact AI use cases: Brent lists repeatable agency wins, lead research and sales prep, proposal and scope automation, and workflow-friendly tooling like Slack-based automations. 25:02 – 26:45 – Client reporting as a force multiplier: Brent highlights AI-driven reporting and analysis, using chat interfaces connected to analytics data to produce consistent client insights faster. 39:51 – 41:13 – Where to learn more: Brent shares where to find E2M Solutions and the Vistara AI event, including the May 11–13 Austin dates and the waitlist link. Show Notes List Agentic workflows - AI workflows E2M actively run for 50+ agencies - ready to plug into your delivery, sales, and operations E2Msolutions.com Vistara AI Event @ Austin, Texas on May 11-13, 2026 Brent’s LinkedIn Love the Podcast Leave us a review here. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

February 25, 202640 min

Where CFO Meets COO: Parakeeto's Unique Approach to Profitability, With Carson Pierce

Points of Interest 00:01 – 01:36 – Introduction: Marcel introduces the episode as a public reflection on Parakeeto’s positioning, prompted by feedback from LinkedIn and client conversations. 01:36 – 02:43 – The Identity Problem: Carson shares the internal confusion many consultants feel when their role spans finance, operations, delivery, and strategy. 02:43 – 04:52 – Clear Problem, Fuzzy Solution: Marcel explains that while Parakeeto has always been clear about solving profitability, clients still struggle to understand how that actually happens. 04:52 – 05:44 – Profitability Touches Everything: The discussion highlights why profitability work inevitably spans finance, delivery, ops, leadership, and new business. 05:44 – 08:12 – Category Creation vs. Familiar Labels: Marcel reflects on the challenge of inventing “profit management” as a category versus borrowing understanding from CFO and COO roles. 08:12 – 10:17 – Why Titles Don’t Really Help: Carson points out that many agencies don’t think in executive titles at all—they just need someone to make the whole system work. 10:17 – 14:18 – The Real Founder Frustration: Marcel describes the pain of having too many specialists, unclear ownership, and no one quarterbacking profitability end-to-end. 14:18 – 18:05 – Agency Context as a Force Multiplier: Carson explains why Parakeeto’s deep agency experience eliminates the long ramp-up most external hires require. 18:05 – 22:23 – CFO vs. COO (and Why Both Fall Short): Marcel breaks down the limitations of finance-only or ops-only approaches and why profitability lives at their intersection. 22:23 – 26:49 – The Assessment Explained: Marcel walks through Parakeeto’s assessment process—modeling, interviews, and workshops that create clarity and a focused roadmap. 26:49 – 30:44 – Ongoing Profit Management in Practice: The conversation details how recurring reporting, forecasting, and advisory support keep teams focused on the right levers. 30:44 – 40:56 – What Actually Creates ROI: Marcel and Carson emphasize that alignment, confidence, and decisive action—supported by numbers—are the true outcomes clients pay for. Show Notes Connect with Carson via LinkedIn Free Agency Toolkit Parakeeto Foundations Course Free access to our Model Platform Love the Podcast Leave us a review here. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

February 11, 202638 min

How to be Profitable at Any Size, With Drew McLellan

Points of Interest 00:00 – 02:00 – Why Agencies Avoid Talking About Money: Drew reflects on why financial transparency was rare in agencies historically and why that silence created widespread confusion about profitability. 02:00 – 05:00 – The Myth of “Impossible” Profitability: Drew explains why claims that an agency “can’t be profitable” usually stem from avoided decisions, misunderstood agency math, or intentional lifestyle choices. 05:00 – 07:30 – Agency Growth Breaking Points: Drew outlines common headcount thresholds where systems, processes, and structure begin to break down as agencies grow. 07:30 – 10:00 – Challenges of Very Small Agencies: The conversation explores why sub-10-person agencies struggle with inefficiency, tribal knowledge, and inconsistent delivery. 10:00 – 13:00 – Generalists vs. Specialists: Drew explains why early-stage generalists often struggle as agencies scale and why specialization becomes essential for profitability. 13:00 – 15:30 – Management Layers and Cost Pressure: Marcel and Drew discuss how introducing management roles adds financial strain and operational complexity. 15:30 – 17:30 – The Most Profitable Agency Size Range: Drew shares data showing agencies with 15–40 employees consistently outperform others on profitability. 17:30 – 19:30 – Why Growing Up Improves Margins: The episode breaks down how systems, niching, and client selection drive efficiency and longer tenure at mid-size agencies. 19:30 – 22:00 – Bigger Agencies, Bigger Expectations: Drew explains how larger clients demand higher sophistication, better talent, and increased operational investment. 22:00 – 25:00 – Lifestyle Businesses vs. Scalable Agencies: The conversation reframes success, validating highly profitable small agencies that are never intended to be sold. 25:00 – 28:00 – Running the Business by the Numbers: Drew and Marcel align on first principles like AGI and the 55-25-20 model as the foundation for healthy decision-making. 28:00 – 37:00 – AI, Commoditization, and the Future of Agencies: Drew connects decades of industry evolution to today’s AI shift, arguing that strategy, thinking, and leadership—not production—are the true sources of agency value. Show Notes Connect with Drew via LinkedIn AMI Website Newsletter Podcast Love the Podcast Leave us a review here. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

January 28, 202636 min

PM/AM Time in Pricing, With Carson Pierce

Points of Interest00:01 – 01:04 – Framing the PM/AM Pricing Question: Marcel welcomes listeners, introduces Carson Pierce, and frames the central question agencies face around whether and how to charge for account and project management time.01:04 – 02:14 – Why This Issue Persists: Carson explains why underpricing project and account management work continues to surface across agencies despite increased industry maturity.02:14 – 03:28 – The Myth That Clients Won’t Pay: Carson challenges the belief that clients resist paying for PM and AM work and reframes these roles as valuable parts of delivery.03:30 – 04:32 – Why PM and AM Time Is Hard to Track: Carson outlines how fragmented tasks, short work intervals, and multi-client meetings make accurate time tracking impractical.04:33 – 06:20 – Pricing Model Confusion as the Root Cause: Marcel connects PM/AM underpricing to weak separation between price, scope, and cost, especially in time-based billing models.06:21 – 07:25 – The ABR Distortion Effect: Carson explains how excluding PM time inflates average billable rate and hides true delivery economics.07:25 – 08:24 – Two Ways to Price PM and AM Work: Marcel introduces the two viable approaches—pricing PM/AM directly in scope or absorbing the cost through margin targets.08:24 – 09:50 – When Client Pushback Actually Appears: Carson explains why most clients accept reasonable PM allocations and why resistance typically signals excessive or poorly designed PM effort.09:51 – 14:02 – Why Time-Tracking Fixes Often Fail: Carson reviews common PM tracking approaches and explains why they frequently add overhead without producing actionable insight.14:03 – 19:59 – Building PM Costs Into Margin Targets: Marcel explains how agencies can model PM and AM costs directly or indirectly based on tracking feasibility and role structure.20:00 – 29:00 – Structuring Account and Project Management Roles: Marcel and Carson discuss when to separate AM and PM roles, referencing Brett Harned’s perspective and tying structure to work complexity.29:01 – 36:13 – Sales Allocation, Overhead Clarity, and Wrap-Up: The episode concludes with guidance on allocating AM time to sales only when explicit, avoiding circumstantial overhead, and reinforcing intentional PM pricing.Show NotesBrett Harned - Agency consultant and advocate for separating account and project management roles.Related Episode: Casey Brown on pricing increases and margin correction.Love the PodcastLeave us a review here. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.