TC Talk by Abigail Bakke | Biz and Tech Podcasts

September 11, 2025

The case for climate hope: A talk with Dr. Stephanie Rollag Yoon

For this episode of TC Talk: A Tech Comm Podcast, Abi and Benton interview Dr. Rollag Yoon, a professor of English Education and curriculum editor for the ⁠Journal of Climate Literacy in Education⁠. We talk about definitions of climate literacy, how to communicate about climate to young people, and why hope needs to be part of the message. Check out ⁠ClimateLit.org⁠, which features tons of teaching resources. Transcript ATell us about, I guess, sort of your general background and how you became involved in this topic.SYes, I approach things from story. So that's where I come. I think there was a reason I was an English major. I think, so I both learn through story. I think through story. And then I'm definitely like a feeler. My emotional response carries a lot of where I'm at. Growing up, I definitely was in a family who cared about thinking about and connecting to the world in like a really physical way and in a way that I think I've had to actually learn to name in groups of folks who you know, name themselves as environmentalists. Like I grew up on a farm, and there are certainly things that farming has been problematic in some ways, of course, for environmental factors, and I've thought a lot about that, but it also was a space where I, my whole childhood was connected to the ground, like in the ground. I literally pulled weeds from the bean field so that the beans would grow every July, you know, and was always outside, always planting. So I think I had this, my interest started as an innate sense of connectedness, like truly to the ground, like that's where we lived and and existed.SAnd my sister, to be honest, my older sister was very involved in, I think in high school, she is a little bit more, she was a science major, she was an ecology major for her undergrad, so she had this interest and would talk about it and the concerns around it, and I was like, yep, that makes sense. I've always had, sort of, I think the standard, coming from the 90s, good intention, yes, I care about the environment. Yes, I will recycle. Yes, I try to limit my waste. But then I'm somebody who has always believed in science, so like am aware of sort of the things that we've lived, the changing, the Al Gore era, like our climate is actually changing, our world is actually changing and becoming more concerned about it. And then I think being a teacher and starting, a classroom teacher mostly for 10 years with 7th graders, we're at this really interesting stage where they care about topics, they get deeply passionate about them. They also get nervous about them in different ways of seeing that.SAnd then I think being a mom and recognizing that my kids from an early age are super aware, right? They are aware of how the air feels when there are fires in Canada that affect us here in Minnesota. They are aware of trees that are cut down on our block and what that means. They are aware of, you know, their good and bad of like social media excerpts of like the ocean and all the plastic, right? And so I think that our kids both like my own children and kids that I taught, like, have felt it deeply, that sort of like entering that space.SAnd then as an English teacher, I think that I, again, going back to story, have always thought about writing and producing as a space for students to take action. Like, I think that's the purpose of teaching students to engage with word. I think in working with students, I think keeping me going in the classroom has always been sort of this idea of a speculative imagination. What do text tell us about? But where do they allow space for us to imagine something new and better? Because I don't want to stay in a stuck place. I believe in research and I believe in understanding the truth and the science of the moment. But I also believe that like we have to exist with some hope. I don't say that naively, but what is the catalyst that like is going to allow us to imagine and create something new?SSo then that interest kind of connected me with some of the work of a professor who I knew from being a graduate student at the University of Minnesota, who started the Center for Climate Literacy, that was Marek Oziewicz. He has cared deeply about this topic for a long time and he really just on his own connected to people from around the world and was like I want to, we have to do this. Schools are a place where if we connected teachers, teachers are a conduit to students and that is like the biggest, the biggest space we have for movement in our world because like we can't really sit around and wait for policy in some ways. Like we have to move from down here. That's how we reach people. And so how do we come together and start building resources and spaces and ways of thinking that allow to move that forward. And so he invited me in to start thinking about this work, particularly around our journal, which is just two years old. And so, so just started meeting with this group of people from all over the world who care about this and also work with teachers and teacher educators and literature to, to think about this work. That's kind of, that's how I got started.AWe both read the introductory editorial of the first issue. And I thought it was super inspiring.BYeah.ASo for our listeners here, I'm gonna just read a little excerpt of it.AThe journal is our collective effort to actively confront in and with education the climate breakdown and its drivers. Climate change is the key existential issue of our time. It is already eroding possibilities for human and non-human lives across the globe. If not addressed adequately, it will continue to erode these possibilities at an accelerating pace, leaving today's young people stranded in an unrecognizable wasteland that may become their future. But this is not the future we are willing to accept. At CLE, Climate Literacy in Education, we believe that the story of climate change is yet to be told. It will be told and shaped by today's youth and by all of us who stand up for young people's right to futures in which they can thrive without compromising the Earth's biospheric integrity.AAnd what I love about what I just read is that. It doesn't beat around the bush, right? We are living in a climate emergency. Right.AIt is the existential issue of our time, and like Benton and I talked about in our in our episode about facing the climate emergency, that was the first step is you have to acknowledge the reality and that's where it's easy to get stuck. And then there's this shift to this is not the future we are willing to accept. And there's that making space for hope that I need. Yeah.AAnd so I appreciate that your journal is out there with this honest but hopeful perspective. And it also makes me feel way awesomer about being an educator myself. The way you talked about howSGood.AThis is where we can make a difference is with the young people we’re teaching versus waiting on policy. Yeah. I, I really admire what you're doing. And yeah, I also appreciate how you're talking about it from your perspective as a parent because that's probably the key motivator for me right now, is I brought my kids into this world that's crumbling. Yeah.AAnd I would say our kids are pretty aware. But that's mostly because we talk about it a lot. You and I, and Zoe especially, is great at listening when she's not supposed to. Mm. So,Bespecially when she's not supposed to. Better than when we're talking to her. For sure. Yeah. Of course.ASo even she this year was like, oh, I wish it would snow it’s like Christmas time, Why isn't it snowing right without snow? Means it's too warm. Right.AAnd climate change is getting worse. And I realized, Oh my gosh, I have completely imparted my own existential terror to my 11 year old and so like we personally talking to our own kids, need to pair that with, there are steps we can take. There is another story we can tell, right?SAnd it is part of it. It is scary. We read a book to our kids called the Whatifs, and it talks about like when you have bad what ifs. You might also have good what ifs. What if this goes well today? But so we talk a lot about at our house, like when people, when we have the what ifs and I think that part of me when I talk about parenting is Simon, our oldest, will say he'll sometimes at night say like I just have so many what ifs that are so big. And they include like environmental concerns. And it's not because I think like we talk generally about the choices we make, right. I think we talk about like you know we're not, we don't eat as much meat because of this or we don't. You know, we're gonna reuse this instead of throwing it away because of this. Or like we don't need so many things because of this but. But the existential fear, I think, is also just like felt in if they hear a clip of news, right. Or they do notice these things like it's a collective thing. So.AYeah, I guess it's not better to hide it. It just sucks that they have to carry this burden that they didn't choose, you know. Right. 100%.BI'm sure that every generation has a degree of this, but you know we need to prepare our kids for a world we've never seen. And it's gonna be dramatically different from the world we grew up in. You know when they get to be our age, what is that that world gonna be? What does 2050 look like? You know, how can we get them ready to survive and hopefully even thrive in that landscape?SYeah. Yeah. And to move beyond that like again, I don't mean this to sound naive, but like also to say yes, we have to change right now that's it. And we will have to adapt to the world and like how do we create in a way that allows us, the world to maybe not be the worst possibility, right?SWithout jumping in too fast, I'll tell you for for example so one of the things with the climate Literacy Journal we have this, I don't know if I shared this with, I probably did, Abi, but the so climatelit.org is our database it’s all sorts of books  that address climate and it's games and apps and youth-authored and picture books and novels. And I think about like one of the books that I do read a lot with my students and I'm holding it up, the the Tantrum that saved the world. And it's about this kid who is like, all these animals from around the world, and things are like knocking at her door. And she's like, why are you here? I don't have space. And then, like eventually, like, she's like, fine, move in. And then she starts to listen to. And she's like, wait a minute. Like, why isn't there a place for you? And then she, like, goes to the government officials and is like, come on now we're ruining this, let’s make it better. And she, she continues being told, like, don't worry about it. It'll be fine. You’re just a kid, you don't know. And then she throws this tantrum and she's like, actually, I do know and actually, like, I'm not letting you off the hook on this. But I love a book like this because, it is this sort of like awareness that the things that we're describing are on all of our doorsteps. And it's a young kid saying I'm actually not gonna just sit there and take this. I am gonna pound on the doors until something changes, which again that can feel like as adults, not always the most hopeful, but I think like if these are the stories we're telling our kids on a regular basis, we're not going to put up with these things, it feels like a starting point to me.BIt sounds like a good book.AWe have to get that.SIt’s so good.BMaybe we'll get copies and put one in each of the libraries.AHey.SThat's a good idea, yeah, I vote yes. I think the other thing that I feel sort. I don't know if hope is the right word, but when I think about movement, so I was a Co editor for a special issue titled Water as Conflict and Water as Commons, where we really featured how our teachers with their students, thinking about water in the classroom and not, and we wanted to complicate it, right? Not Just like water, we all need it. The end. And we did this special issue because we were thinking about with our own students, it's an entry point because everybody uses water so much. But then how do we complicate that with our students in a way that allows that space for both, that space for acknowledging like what we're doing with water and how it's problematic, but also we're all in this. It Affects all of us and so therefore what's the move? And so if you haven't heard of We are water protectors. We are water protectors is by Carole Lindstrom. That's the book that tells of Indigenous water protectors on the Dakota pipeline, like telling the story and like using the metaphor of the pipeline is a black snake and Here is how we come together as a community to protect the water. Because we are not individuals, we are a collective and we are doing this together, which I think I just want to always acknowledge like we're continually thinking too about the work that indigenous communities have done environmentally for a long time as part of this special issue and special, and the journal and the Center. And how we can draw on those stores as a space for learning. So that's connected.SBut what I was gonna say from there is we had this special issue and we invited teachers to share their stories of how they take up water in the classroom. And They were so beautiful and so creative. And these like lovely ways that teachers are thinking through with their students about water. Many of them using the book we are water protectors, but also in lots of other ways. And so we had some of the teachers come and speak on a panel at the National Council of Teachers of English in November. And it was an 8:30 AM session, which at a conference on the East Coast is like not the ideal time, but we still had 40 people, I think because people care about this topic. And it was so moving because we had a teacher from Florida and a teacher from Wisconsin, and in some ways telling these really different stories, but in some ways telling stories like you all are saying about what their students know and experience, and how it just has to be part of the curriculum. Somebody asked the teachers on the panel, what would you recommend for people who are in a conservative place where maybe it's, you’re not supposed to talk about climate change? And the teacher from Florida said, I teach in Florida. There's a lot of ideas about what we are and are not supposed to teach about. But my students just went through two hurricanes. They've lost their home. The idea that we can't approach this with our students is just not a thing. It's their lives. And now we, right, the fires in LA. So in one way it was a hard sharing of things, but In between that we were sharing, here are these teachers saying, and we're honoring our students’ experience and helping them think about, like, they’re living this, what are we gonna do with it? And helping them think about like, what are the stories we can turn to Where people have made movement and like, how do we then take our own voice and engage in that movement as well? Because we don't have another choice. I just. I think those are the spaces that for me I Have to move in. I don't know how else to.AYeah. So we've established that we need to be talking about this. There is no other choice. Can we talk more about, general best practices I guess in talking to young people and Benton, maybe now you can jump in with what you're thinking, what you're hoping to do, why you wanted to talk to Steph.BRight. For the benefit of the listeners, you know both of them. I am a member of the Climate Impact Corps and I'm working in St. Peter, Minnesota.SYay.BWith their Department of Public Works and one of the things that I would like to do is reach out to the schools and ask if they have any interest of someone coming in, I'm imagining me, coming in and speaking about climate change with the students.SYeah.BBecause the Climate Impact Corps is a part of AmeriCorps and supposed to be non partisan, I obviously can't get into politics in the way of parties or candidates. But I just can't, kind of like you. I can't imagine having all of this knowledge, I've been scraping together from here and there about the climate and what's wrong and what we can do and not try to engage with the people who, this will be their life's work. It doesn't matter what field they're going into. Addressing climate change is going to be the life's work of humanity for three generations. At a bare minimum. Yep.ASo when you go in, how do you not scare them away?BThe goal is not to get them cowering under their desks.SYeah. Can I jump in?BDo.S This is good goals. This is so exciting. I'm excited for you. So it's interesting because even when I do this with, so I taught children's lit to freshmen and sophomore in college, and then I taught an introduction, like a gen ed literacy class and I bring this into all my classes because I believe in it, and even in those spaces like there's a little bit of that concern of either a shutdown, like students just are like, I don't feel any type of hope about this, I don't wanna go there, or this might feel politically charged and I'm not trying to do that, but I think the way is in, whether it's with 7-year olds or 15 year olds or 20 year olds is to start with something that we know that they all can connect to. So when we were talking about the water issue for the journal, when we did our presentation, we had everybody write in response to the question, What is a memory you have of water? Because everybody has like a moment, whether it's from swimming, being thirsty, whatever it is, people have experiences with water being at a river fishing, whatever it is. People have memories, and I think particularly in Minnesota, where we are so dependent on rivers and lakes for entertainment in a lot of ways. People have memories of water. And so when we start with a question that is accessible and doesn't put people on either the defense or on the fear, it's a beginning place to say like, OK, we all value water. And then I don't think we need to name like and here are the 900 things that are going wrong with water. There's like some of that, yes, but some of it might not be that helpful at a certain point for productivity. So how do we move then from their personal experience to a sense of inquiry that says, these are important memories with water. What would we be willing to do to protect that water? What do we want that water to look like in the future? And then to move into, so what are some of the things that we might know that we need to do to protect that water for the future, so that we can have those memories again, so that we can have those experiences, so that those after us can have those experiences. And I think that is like a starting small thing. But then I think about, I think NPR did a series of stories about how the shorelines on Minnesota lakes have surpassed 50% home ownership now so there's a new concern about what's happening, but then all of these communities are coming together around different lakes to make sure that their waterfronts are more animal friendly, more sustainable,BMore natural.SYeah. So just sharing a clip like that, that type of thing is like an entry point. I also think there are some great books. I’m smiling because I'm looking at like graphic novels, depending on the age group. Astro-Nuts, have I talked to you about this by John Scieszka? Like it's kind of this wild story. He has a series of three books where the characters are, it's definitely like science fiction fantasy, but also graphic novel. But he's really addressing climate issues within the story. And so I think those are opportunities to like look at some of those pages and just have students identify what they notice and then make connections like. Here's in this story, what might this be like in the real world? And who would you, what character would you want to be in the real world? Where would you want to place yourself in this story?SAnother one that I think about, so Drawn to Change the World: 16 Youth climate activists and 16 artists of the collection. Brought together by Emma Reynolds. But it's all these different stories where it has, like Autumn Peltier, and it has a little bio. And then it has a graphic novel, like 2 pages of graphic stories about what she did and then it has where Are they now? And so it's this series of different, so like in my class I had students kind of jigsaw. Everybody took a different one and then shared something from that. So just sharing those stories all of a sudden it becomes, there are questions that naturally come up that allow then for what that means. So I think starting with a writing prompt. It's easy access. Then going to some sort of text whether that's a podcast or a book that says what do you notice about this? What do you connect to? What does this say about your story about water? Like, where do you see that line? We don't have to tell them the things if we build space for them to come up with it on their own. So that's the second piece.SAnd then the third piece is I do build in frameworks. So, Marek who I mentioned he created frameworks that I think can be helpful for thinking. So Marek in I think it might have been the first journal that he talks about it later, too, talks about the CLICK framework. And so in that framework he talks about it, can be helpful for us to think about kinship care, systems care, people care and Earth care. And so they're all connected. But so talking to students about like, It's one thing or us to care about all people, but first of all, that's not siloed, right? To care for all people we have to start thinking about what does it mean to care for all people in the world in the spaces that they are? But then if we also include things like kinship care and we say, what if we also care for our plants and our animals? Like what might that feel like? What might it mean to feel things for your dog, but also your plants, and also all the other animals and the species that we care about. What does it mean to think about the care that we take to make sure that our systems, government, school, whatever, are thoughtful towards everybody? And then ending with Earth care like, so how do we build all these things to make sure there our actual Earth itself is cared for? And so just having a framework to be like here are questions, just like you would any other theory with literature. So if we read this book, what is it telling us about kinship care? What is it telling us about Earth? What is it telling us about people care? For me when I think about teaching I think about entry point - how do students build a connection to the topic? What's the new information I'm gonna share with them? And then how are they gonna make sense of that with some sort of connection to their own world? So those are the things that I think are helpful.SAnd I will also say I say text broadly, like I love to use a clip from, well, now I'm thinking about Moana, because there's lots in Moana, but Frozen 2 is the other one. Where there are all kinds of moments where they're looking around going oh, Everything's fine. The world's on fire, but everything's fine. So how do we like, utilize things that students are already interested in and then ask questions about what's going on there.AThat does sound a little different, Benton, from what you were imagining.BYeah, a little bit.ASo Benton’s the data guy, right? And what you're saying really kind of put students at the center in terms of their connection to the world. And starting from that, I think that's certainly something you could open with Benton is a question like What is a memory you have with, or could you even go as broad as what is a memory you have about the natural world? Or would that be?BBeing outdoors.SYeah, I think it depends on the age of the students. I think a little specificity can be helpful.AWe'll say high school.SYeah. I think you could say natural world, I think you could say outside. I think you could say water? I think they'd all produce like slightly different answers so depending on where you would go with it, but I think you would get the idea of. Yeah, of like you all are connected to these spaces.AAnd then I like too, the idea of showing them something that has worked, showing them a way that people have taken action and it's made a difference.SYes, if you're working with teenagers, I think that book the Drawn to change the world, it's so great because they're short, they're accessible. They're real people who did real things that matter. Hmm.AAnd just empowering students to see themselves in that position themselves. Like, is that something you ever got growing up, Benton?BIs what?AThat that sense of empowerment, I am a part of this. My actions matter. I can do something about this or maybe the urgency wasn't there when we were in school.SOr something, I can do something more than just pick up recycling, which I mean, yes, we need to pick up garbage too, right? That's the thing.BMy specific experience was more that there wasn't, like there wasn't much focus on connection. It was more of a you can do whatever you want, you know, the sky is the limit, that sort of.SThe sky is the limit, yep. Yeah.BThing that probably has led to a worsening of the situation.SYep. The individualism versus collective. Yes.SI wonder. It just changes the conversation, I mean. A really prevalent conversation in schools is about like your responsibility that you can do for your own future, right? So just that shift from individual to collective, I think, yeah.AYeah. And you are part of a system that you cannot stand apart from, I mean some people can. And they're going to be the rich assholes.SWho literally want to build a new place on a different planet because then they don't have to worry about taking care of this one planet. Because they have the money and the means to go where they want.BThe phenomenal hubris of thinking that I can terraform a different planet rather than terraforming this one.SExactly.AMakes me so sad.SYeah. And I just think, that's about good narrative, that that there are folks who believe that they would, like, be invited to go along with this, right? Like that they would somehow be saved by somebody who would rather like create a new whole new world than like, help the one that we have. I think that's one of the things I think about storytelling and I think, I love discourse analysis. I think for me like who are people in our society who have done a really good job of telling stories that are full of hope. And what does that hope look like? And is that hope about like, take hope in this thing that's about being selfish. Or is it take hope in this way of like collectively building something that's gonna include everybody? We have to get really good at telling the story that we are all in this together.BYeah, specifically about the word hope. I'm going to get out of my lane and into yours. So there's so much discussion about finding hope when looking at the climate crisis, I feel like in a, in a lot of cases that many people equate hope with I don't need to worry about it. Yeah.BIt was, I believe it was in the Facing the climate crisis, that the author talked about discarding the the language of hope and talking instead about courage, where she she described courage.SOh, interesting.BAs the, the fortitude to to choose and do the right thing regardless of whether there is an assured outcome.AI think you are thinking of that literature professor. Genevieve something? She said, we've been telling a story about climate panic and rhetorically, that language works to delegitimize people who are raising the alarm. And she wants to rebrand it to climate courage. Do you happen to remember that professor's name?BGenevieve Guenther.AThe other thing I liked about her language is she she called it global heating instead of global warming. Oh.AAnd I was like, that's a that's a shake up that makes you think about things differently.SThat's interesting. As you were saying, I was thinking about the difference between hope and courage. I like the idea of courage, and I get why that matters. Who is her key audience was it general?BI think that was pretty general. It wasn't an academic oriented book, but yeah, another thing that I really like about that change of, you know, rhetoric. Yeah.BThere's. That's why I'm in your lane. Is thatSYeah, you are.BYou know, hope evokes passivity.AYou can hope in something or someone else.BWhere you cannot, where you cannot be courageous passively. That is an active thing.SThat is interesting. I have to kind of think about this. I think that for me, where hope feels maybe necessary is for kids because it feels unfair, I feel like we've positioned kids to be so courageous. And for so many things, because we haven't, because we haven't stepped up. I also think there is this thing that happens that sort of this like, the next generation will take care of it, right. And like we, now that’s stopped. Now it has to happen now. There's no more next generation.SI like the word courage. I'm not ready to give up on the word hope for kids because I think they  deserve to have, and I know there's like a naivete there or like this idea that I hear what you're saying about  like it might not feel as action oriented. But when my kiddo tells me that he has what ifs about so many things. I want to somehow find space that isn't totally naive or dismissive, but that also says like we're working towards something like we're going to keep going and it's, I want to be able to say and mean it's going to be OK and some of it's not gonna be OK. Mm-hmm.SBut I worry that if we don't put hope in the imagination as well, so courage is the action, but hope is the idea, and I think that because I live in story, it's about the idea in some ways, and so, and they're both, they go together. Like I think now that I'm saying this, I think we can't have one or the other and that hope might allow us to imagine courageous action.AOoh.SMaybe.BThat's interesting. Yeah, and I am. I am definitely in, professionally a pretty, diametrically different situation. Yeah, yeah.BStory is not the realm of the engineer. It isn't the realm of the tree worker. It can be, but the hands on, physically active kind of work is less about story than it is about.AI don't know though. Because remember when Steph was talking at the beginning about pulling the weeds out of the earth, right, and asking students to look for that connection on their own. That is a story.SYeah, it's about how we access that, right.BMm-hmm. Yeah, the action gives you something to tell a story about.SYes, it's embodied. Yeah.AThank you for saying that about. We can't put everything on our kids. They are still kids and they need space to hope that the adults in their lives are doing everything they can too. So yeah, kids, this is gonna be your life's work. But it's not only your work. It's our work too, yeah.A'Cause some kids are like me growing up I felt everything was my responsibility, right? To this day, I feel like everything is my responsibility.SAnd that's hard.AI joke that it was my fault that Al Gore lost the 2000 election because I wrote a song in praise of George Bush, and that was the tipping point. That's it.SThat's. That's it, Abi. No, no.AAnd like logically. I was a kid. I was. I was following what the adults in my life told me was right and it just tragedy to look back and realize what a turning point that really was.SYes. And maybe what I'm thinking about too, it's. I really appreciate what you're saying, too, Benton, about, like, where does this hit with every different type of person, right? Because It can't just be, you know, one type of learner, one type of, I don’t know, Myers Briggs personality who is up for doing this work. But I do think what I go back to is like even where we decide to find courage to do the action or what you were just saying, Abi, like you had all these adults in your life telling you this is the path to like goodness or like whatever that I will vote for this person because of this. So, you know, I think that as a public school teacher and now working at a public university, I know that when I walk into the room, 50% of the students voted for or are thinking about a candidate who has openly said no to climate policy, right. To somebody who said this is not my priority, we are not going to focus on this. We are not going to make this better. And so I think about, OK, if these are the people sitting in front of me. They all have different experiences. And they all have been told facts in certain ways from different groups, right? I don't know anymore that like the argument building shifts where they stand. But if they are saying, wait, this is my life and I have a memory or a connection or an experience that will be changed by this and like I can picture it then, like might that change how I actually respond to this work or to this idea?SAnd part of that is coming from, I'll give a shout out to the work of Nicole Mirra and Antero Garcia, who did a whole project where they were actually looking, working with students from across the country. This sounds different, but I think it's connected, On gun violence and they were thinking about how in high school classrooms, we teach argument. And they were saying we have done a really good job and you know this, Abi, from your technical writing stuff. Like, they're saying we've done a really good job of teaching students how to take their idea and then find the right sources to back it up. But what does that do for us, right? And so they took these students from across the country and created this digital platform where they took a hot topic like gun violence, and they had them start sharing personal stories, their relationship to guns, whether it was gun violence, hunting, whatever it was. And had them start talking about how actually having dialogue shifted their responses more than like building an argument that they already believed. And so I think that's part of where I have storytelling too, is like it's, it's also like when do we actually listen to to information that's being told to us?AWe actually just, our last episode was pre election and it was about listening versus arguing. Yeah, interesting.AI was hopeful. I was hopeful going into it, now I've.BYou've sworn off hope forever, right?SHopes dashed.AI've lost hope in the power of dialogue, you know. So here's the thing. I look at the wildfires in California and I see people at the highest levels of government saying things like, Oh yeah, this is God's wrath because California had a, is more liberal than conservative and the absolute thought-stopping effect that that has and people eat it up and I'm just. How could I break past that in a student?BKind of wild how God wasn't punishing us with hurricanes earlier this year or last year. In Florida.ANo, that was the Democrats clouding or seeding the clouds, remember?BOh right.SWhen people really break it down to like that story, I feel like it's easier for people to hop on to that story right, then to have to actually, like make changes in their own life but I, again, I just feel like have they had this like history of believing that story like this happens because people, you know what I mean? And so I don't think it's different than messaging around climate. Like Project 2025 was a well documented, articulate thing. I don't agree with it, but like right there was stories everywhere in that right and so I think that part of my hope in the journal and the work of the Center for Climate Literacy is what if we tell more and more stories at an early age. Like the Tantrum that saved the world, but also like, I'm gonna throw books, Jason Chin's Grand Canyon, where he has these, like, beautiful, in-depth detailed pictures and maps of the Grand Canyon that are so glorious that like a kid would just wanna like you don't necessarily wanna sit down and read the whole thing. But you just wanna, like, play with the book kind of. If we are continually showing this story, like at what point does the other story seem silly? Is there a saturation of certain types of stories that can like move the needle? And that's a genuine question.AWe are going to put in a big book order after this don't you think?BInevitably yes.SI really, really love Astro-Nut. It's super fun.AOkay, yeah. And Zoe loves graphic novels, too, so we can certainly hook her up with some of those.SYeah, it's funny.ABefore we go, so some of our audience consists of other technical communication professors. It seems to me there could be a place for their work in this journal, they don't, they may not necessarily use literature in their courses, but the idea of story is certainly not foreign to people in my area. So what's different about this journal compared to your traditional academic journal and what are you looking for? What can people send in?S This is so fun. Thank you. One thing that's the same as we are going for quality and it is peer-reviewed because I think that's important to say, but it is also focused on accessibility and I think we're getting better at what that looks like and what that means, we're shifting. It's completely open access. So that's the first thing. Like you don't have to be part of a library system to get access to it. It’s An Open Access journal so anybody can read it at any point in time.SThe second piece is we really want to highlight teacher work. So I'm the editor of the curriculum section. So that's probably I shouldn't say our biggest, but it's definitely the core part of the journal is curriculum. We have a template and we invite teachers to send in. Here's what I'm doing in the classroom, and we have sort of they can plug in resources, but also opportunity for them to say Here's how I got here. Here's what the lesson or unit is. And then here's why this matters. Here's where I'm going to, so a space for, We want teachers to share the work that they're doing. And not have to pay for it, for the ideas with each other, but instead to honor their academic intelligence and say you are published in a peer-reviewed journal because you are doing really important good work that we want to spread. And so making it accessible in that way is really important.SSo open access is the first thing. Second thing is there's a huge emphasis on curriculum. But then there also is space for shorter research pieces. We also encourage multimodal pieces, so in our last journal piece we had a link to somebody made a graphic story. It’s beautiful, a digital story. And so again, we're kind of, I think, pushing the limits of what might be included in a journal and then short, short research pieces short reflective essay pieces. I say short because it is about accessibility and getting this information out as quickly as we can to as many people as we can. We're accepting our articles on a rotating basis. Two issues the first year, two issues the second year, I think we'll have 3 again this year. We already are thinking about launching our next special issue. That again, in nuance, but it's going to be about trees.AOoh, fun. This is K12 and higher Ed, correct.SIt is. A lot of the lessons, we particularly want to focus on K12 teachers having access to it. We also have a lot of teacher educators in the mix and a lot of folks who are doing stuff in their college classroom.AOk. I am so glad you could talk with us.SAbi, thank you for having me. This is so fun.  

October 21, 2024

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Benton and Abi agree to disagree about how to disagree. In our "polarized" political climate, what value is there in a rhetoric that doesn't aim to change minds? Is it possible to embody empathetic listening while protecting ourselves from harmful views? They discuss their not-especially-successful attempts to converse with undecided voters as the election nears, and how presidential debates aren't the right format for solving problems. Abi gives a quick rundown of alternatives to persuasion throughout the rhetorical tradition, culminating in the 2022 book Rhetorical Listening in Action by Ratcliffe & Jensen. Stay to the end for Abi's most embarrassing high school debate experience. Sources and further reading Braver Angels. (n.d.). Our Mission. Braver Angels. Retrieved October 21, 2024, from https://braverangels.org/our-mission/ Burke, K. (1969). A Grammar of Motives. University of California Press. Compassionate Listening Project. (n.d.). History. CompassionateListening. Retrieved October 21, 2024, from https://www.compassionatelistening.org/history Foss, S. K., & Griffin, C. L. (1995). Beyond persuasion: A proposal for an invitational rhetoric. Communications Monographs, 62(1), 2–18. Gearhart, S. M. (1979). The womanization of rhetoric. Women’s Studies International Quarterly, 2(2), 195–201. Heller, C. (2015, March 9). Life Inside Jabba the Hutt: Toby Philpott Explains How Puppeteers Operated Jabba the Hutt. The Atlantic. https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/387298/life-inside-jabba-the-hutt/ Inman, M. (n.d.) "Piggers are going all the way this year." The Oatmeal. https://theoatmeal.com/pl/minor_differences2/locker_room Jarratt, S. C. (1991). Feminism and composition: The case for conflict. Contending with Words: Composition and Rhetoric in a Postmodern Age, 105–123. Organizing and protest security culture. (2022, March). [Audio recording]. The Poor Proles Skillshare. https://open.spotify.com/show/2Xb99VLft9T9ObBLFJkj3n Perelman, C., & Olbrechts-Tyteca, L. (1973). The New Rhetoric: A Treatise on Argumentation. University of Notre Dame Pess. Quintilian. (1987). Quintilian on the teaching of speaking and writing: Translations from books one, two, and ten of the Institutio Oratoria (J. J. Murphy, Trans.). SIU Press. Ratcliffe, K., & Jensen, K. (2022). Rhetorical Listening in Action: A Concept-Tactic Approach. Parlor Press LLC. Talking radical politics with Dr. Ayesha Khan. (2022, March). [Podcast episode]. The Poor Proles Skillshare. https://open.spotify.com/show/2Xb99VLft9T9ObBLFJkj3n Talking Sense: Navigating relationships across political divides. (2024, September 5). MPR News. https://www.mprnews.org/episode/2024/09/04/talking-sense-navigating-relationships-across-political-divides Weil, Z., & Goodall, J. (2024). The Solutionary Way: Transform Your Life, Your Community, and the World for the Better. New Society Publishers. WeRateDogs (Director). (2024, September 30). Tim Walz and His Rescue Dog Scout | WeWalkDogs [Video recording]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spiwlde4kys Music credits: Opening theme:  S: Disco Funk Loop by SergeQuadrado | License: Attribution NonCommercial 3.0 Julius Fučík (1897) "Entrance of the Gladiators" op. 68 Transcript AGood morning. Welcome to TC Talk, a tech comm podcast. My name is Abi Bakke.BMy name is Benton Bakke.AI teach technical communication and rhetoric,Band I don't. Currently, I am working in the climate Impact Corps for a nearby city.AThrilled to be working in an area that you are passionate about?BYes. Very much.AYay. I have missed recording.BSame.AI didn't think I would. But I've just been feeling like the last few weeks like, Oh, I want to get on the mic with Benton.BOh.ABut we have an excuse.BThat's right.AWe were invited to participate in the big rhetorical podcast carnival, 2024.B Insert Carnival sounds.A D d d d.BThat's right. Send in the gladiators. That little ditty that people associate with clowns now was actually written as, like, music to indicate sending gladiators into the ring, you know, to battle to their death, whichAHighly intimidating.BIt definitely gives a picture of the comic violence idea was not invented by our Highly intimidating. generation.AHm. How about that? It seems like the kind of thing that could be a fake fact.BI don't know. I think it's the title of the piece, soAOkay. Well, I'll look it up, and if I don't come back here from the future saying that this was made up, then you can assume it is true. Now, to the theme of the Podcast Carnival. Politics Slash Rhetorics: Navigating, civility, culture, and crisis. And this will be held from October 28 through 31st. Our episode is slated to be released on October 31. So I feel like we should give this a spooky vibe, but eh.BYou can listen to it while driving kiddos around to do trick or treating. In your car.ANope. Cause I'm going to drop F bombs.BYeah, but the kids are going to be out of the car.AAre you not going to go to the door with them?BOkay. I guess I do. But like when I was growing up, the way my parents did it they just kind of crept along on the street to keep pace with us. So you know, we would do all the walking and they'd just sit in the car and be comfortable. And presumably listen to obscene podcasts.ADid they levy their parent tax on the Halloween candy like we do?BThey may have done it without me knowing.AYeah. Meanwhile, my kids are like, Mom, you can have this tootsie roll, and I'm like, fuck that. Give me the Reese’s. Yes. Almond Joy. Okay. Dude, at this rate, we are never going to get through this conversation.BRight. Maybe we should just schedule fake podcasting time so that we talk to each other.AOh, my gosh. Is that what it will take?BIt might. To have eye contact? Sure. For longer than 2 seconds at a time?AMaybe. Cheers. Oops, you forgot the rule to not put ice in your drink.BOops, I did.AFor recording. What have you got going on?BI am drinking a dirty doctor Pepper.ADoctor Pepper with olive Brine?BYuck.AI'm kidding.BI'm sure someone's tried it. But what this is is doctor Pepper with amaretto and fireball whiskey.AI think we're just regressing in our levels of drink sophistication. We started off with, a martini, and now we're like dump liquor into pop of choice.BMm hm.AI have a suspicion that the theme for this podcast carnival or at least the timing was intentional because we are at the moment of recording, a few weeks out from the 2024 elections. By the time you're listening, it's possible that either Harris or Trump will have won the presidency.BYou may have voted early. If you haven't voted, Register. Depending on the state you live in, you might already be hosed. But if you live in a state that values its people like Minnesota, where we live, you can register at the polls on election day and then vote.AMm. And I am proud to say, we live in the town that brought us Tim Walz, current vice presidential candidate.BMm-hmm. Our daughters will both be going to the school where he taught.ASo your claim to fame is that you chatted with him in the YMCA locker room, right?BYes. it was when he was actually running for governor of the state. And fortunately, there was no nudity involved on any of the parties. Dudes just tend to walk around letting it all hang free in the YMCA locker room.APiggers are going all the way this year.BThat's true. Oatmeal reference.AI will link to that comic, but I will not explain it.BSo the county DFL chair kind of bragged me up to Tim Walz honestly.AOh, didn't he introduce you as one of the young people who's involved in politics?B One of the one of the excited young people, something like that. Probably an unearned positive, you know, review to Tim Walz and then shook my hand. We exchanged a few things, a few words.A Minnesotan pleasantries?BYes.ASo whether or not you have voted, whether or not a winner of the election has been declared, it will be a scary time. If you're listening before the election, you might be wondering if there are people in your life whose minds you could change. If it's after the election, maybe there are people in your life who now there is a rift between you that has gotten larger. And you're wondering if the relationship is salvageable, or you know, how to make it civil, I guess. So my question is, could there be an approach that's more civil, respectful and centered on people’s humanity rather than the charged political discourse we have today? My answer is no.BI'm glad I didn't just jump in there with it because I knew that was your stance. So your stance is we're doomed to division and strife.ANot necessarily.BOkay. We’ll find some nuance.A I'll give you an opportunity to listen to my stance later in this episode. Okay. What do you think? Is there a different approach?B I think there is a different approach. The way that media presents what the American public or electorate, which are different, what American society is like is very linear, you know, left versus right. I cannot remember the name of the model, so good luck finding it. I'm sure you will. But the model.ACan I just say, I hate when you throw in. Oh, I heard a thing somewhere. And then when I'm the one who has to go in and add the references, you send me on a wild goose chase. Anyway. You don't remember the model, but.BBut I definitely like more the two axis portrayal of political views. And so there'sAthree dimensional versus twoBTwo dimensional versus one.AAh, Okay. So we're not talking a line here.BNot line, but a graph. Admittedly, there's probably more than three dimensions to display butAIt would look like a sea urchin.B Sea urchin.AYeah, with like intersecting lines all over the place three dimensionally?BA sea urchin kind of sounds like an excellent metaphor for the time we're in. Yeah. Very prickly andAcomplex? Okay. So you wish that we would move to a place of greater nuance.BIt's fancy.AIt doesn't play well in headlines.BNo, it doesn't.ASo I guess you could say that the theme of this episode is listening. What role could listening play? How does it work? When does it work? When does it not?BI think that there is value in trying to reach for civility. Even though I recognize that civility and decency are often dog whistles of the powerful trying to silence.ATone policing.BYes, Tone policing. People trying to silence the aggrieved. Like, how dare you yell at me?AThe mean tone of your voice is meaner than the slur I called you, right? Am I a good listener?BI think that generally you are a pretty good listener, yes.AI did not think you would say that.BWell, it really does depend. You are very good at listening to our kids.AThey have good ideas.BWhat are you saying about me? When it comes to different political or philosophical ideas, I feel like I'm probably more curious in hearing a thing out. I feel like oftentimes, sure, I'm listening, but I may not be really listening with an open mind. I'm listening for, like, Is this actually a legitimate person critique or is this an astro turfedAcritically listening. That's good. That's a good practice. And I'm more likely to be, like, no, not engaging with that bullshit. So I think it's safe to say that we disagree about how to disagree with people and ideas.BYeah.AWe've gotten kind of heated about this. I'm not going to lie. I think it started with talking about undecided voters. Whereas you’re like, I'm going to hear them out. And I'm like, if you haven't made up your mind already, there's nothing I can do to change it. Yeah, I've been like, OMG, democracy will crumble if we don't do something, and so I've been looking into signing up for door knocking. What makes me nervous about that is encountering people who are unapologetically pro Trump. I don't want to have a conversation with them. Whereas, again, you would be willing to hear them out because certainly there are, you know, underlying beliefs and fears there that could be acknowledged and addressed by the Democratic Party ideally.BWhen it comes to economic concerns, I know that economic anxieties have been used as a dog whistle forAAn excuse.BAn excuse, a cover for out and out racism. But economic uncertainty is real.ASo I think the issue is don't go in there assuming that You're actually racist, so I'm not going to talk to you. Let's talk about the economy. Let's talk about what impact this has on you in your day to day life. And what can we take from that and how can we try to come at a win, win solution? Instead of trying to argue you out of your very real lived experience.BJust to add a little bit of nuance here, I distinguish between supporters and voters. So voters being people who would hold their nose and vote for Trump. People who aren't enthusiastic for him, but would check his box. Those are voters. Supporters are people who buy the merch and put the signs up, or, you know, put like a silhouette of Trump and they put in their yard and a giant flag. I wouldn't be willing to engage in conversation with all of his supporters. Some of them I would be willing to discuss with them in order to gain some insight into how is it that this guy has convinced you that in any realm, he's going to do a thing that's good for you personally.AThat's useful. Trump supporters versus Trump voters. I am less likely to recognize the distinction because the end result is the same. People who vote for Trump and he wins, they have elected Trump, whether or not they held their nose while doing it, you know?BTrue.ASo we got in a good discussion with some friends the other day, shout out to Sabrina. Recommended an MPR episode about this group called Braver Angels. On their home page, they say, “as we separate into groups that increasingly do not even know or interact with, people of differering opinions, we lose trust in our institutions, eroding the ability to govern ourselves, and lowering the caliber of citizenship. This growing trend coarsens public debate, produces policy gridlock, shrinks our capacity for goodwill, and harms our family and personal relationships. Effective self government depends precisely on what this type of polarization destroys.” I'm so done with the word polarized. There's one side that's been doing the polarizing.BThe vast majority. Yes.AYeah. I mean, the word, it's passive. When I think what is more helpful to do is to confront right wing radicalism.BYes. Polarization describes a phenomenon that is happening, whereas radicalization describes something that is being done by someone.AAnyway, this group Braver Angels organizes conversations among people who disagree politically and the focus is on understanding and not changing minds. I listened to the episode with the married couple who voted for different people, and there was a moderator there. And so they took turns explaining where they were coming from and this and that. And it was certainly more civil than an overt conflict. They were talking about, like, does this have to mean divorce? As I was listening, I was just thinking, Yeah, sure. This sounds all civil and well and good. But this guy who voted for Trump is still wrong. I like to think of myself as a relatively open minded person. But there's danger, I think, and vulnerability in opening your mind to ideas that dehumanize. So can I not draw a line there? I don't know.BThat that is exactly the sentiment of Braver Angels is to, re humanize people who are on the other side, not necessarily beliefs. Hmm.AYeah. The moderator emphasized that people's beliefs are not their identity. I'm like, Well, they kind of are. I don't know. I mean, it helps too that people self select into this. They're not going to participate if they don't value at least the idea of listening. So that shakes out the Trump supporters, I would guess.BYeah. The hard right hard liners. To some extent, I'm sure some of the hard supporters on the left too.ALike me. I wouldn't want to participate in this. Or I don't think I could participate in good faith.BIn instances where someone does or says something that's just completely off the wall and doesn't seem justified at all. I try to make sense of it. I try to be like, Well, maybe they were thinking about this or that.ABut I would argue, those people seem to always get the benefit of the doubt. Trump didn't actually mean to say there would be a literal bloodbath if he wasn't elected.BThat's true.AI kind of get what you mean when you say you try to understand it. Like, you are not agreeing with it, but that's different than trying to understand something.BYeah. Not agreeing or excusing, but trying to be like, what is the rationale behind this?AYeah. I kind of put those goggles on, those metaphorical goggles on, when I was watching the debate between Harris and Trump and part of me is watching and going. How is Trump a viable presidential candidate? And another part of me is like, I get it. I get why some people would insist that he had won. Because in that universe, in that universe of alternative facts, everything he's saying makes sense. I think I've had a lot of experience with that cognitive dissonance, I guess. I think it's fair to say that I experienced some indoctrination as a child religiously and politically. I don't say that in a way that is like, Yeah, my parents were brainwashing me. I would blame the institutions that we were a part of. Um living, growing up in a small, smallish town, very homogeneous community, and then getting to college and starting to be exposed to more ideas. And this was college in Fargo, North Dakota, I might add. So hardly a place to be exposed to expansive world views and diverse perspectives. But nevertheless, that was whatBStarted things. It was definitely a good thing to, you know, for people from a small town like you and me,  it was probably good to have baby steps into diversity.AIt was indeed a stepping stone. Like we said, it was a baby step. It started with trying to juggle multiple competing world views at one time and that is hard to do. There is a mental and emotional toll that takes on you to try to be open to so many possibilities at once. I get why people dig in. It's hard. I've turned around my views. I've done the hard work and I'm exhausted. Anyway, considering what I came from, you'd think I'd have more empathy for Trump voters. But I actually have less empathy, I think, because I look at them and I'm like, Hey, I changed my mind, why aren't you?BI figured it out.AWhich is hugely privileged and judgmental because not everyone has access to college. There are a lot of things that allowed me to change my views over time, circumstances that others don't have.  So besides that sense of exhaustion, I think oftentimes it's unsafe to hear out bad ideas. I think part of why you and I have different approaches to this is because I believe women have been socialized to default to empathy. I think women are expected to listen and to care for the feelings of others in ways that men have not been expected to do. That I think puts us at a disadvantage when in conversation with people who haven't practiced listening and empathizing. I might come across as a bad listener, but In reality, it's me setting boundaries after a lifetime of already trying to see value in other perspectives.B Mm. Yeah. When we were talking, it did kind occur to me that, you know, obviously, the main demographic difference between you and me is socialization of, you know, different genders.AAlso, you have curly hair and I don't.BI have curly hair, and I don't know what that gets me, other than, you know, a step towards clown. It came back. That male conceit that, Oh, yeah, why can't I be a leader? Sure. Mm hmm. Whereas from what I've heard from you, there is certainly more prevalent imposture syndrome for women in society.A Mm hmm. That's to say nothing of racism in society. Again, I want to acknowledge that I can walk into one of those Braver Angels conversations, and I might be annoyed, but I'm not going to be harmed. Picture a Black person walking into that and they get paired with a racist who is there because they have good intentions, but nevertheless, their underlying beliefs are harmful. Here's another example. So there's another group called the Compassionate Listening Project. And they started in 1991 as a way to push for reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians.BMm. That's gone pretty well so far.A right. And they would take trips to Israel and Palestine and go on like a listening tour. I'm imagining a situation where Somebody on one side of the conversation is saying, hey, I have a divine right to genocide you. That just seems like it could be putting people in a more victimized space. It’s not fair to ask them to be open to that.BHm.AI guess I would say this. I think people with privilege should do the hard work of listening and conversing with people with bad ideas because they are less likely to be harmed. I know that means I need to stop being cowardly and be willing to engage those conversations that more marginalized people cannot safely engage in. If it could mean changing a mind. But I'm struggling with this. If my end goal is ultimately to change minds, then we're right back to persuasion being the end goal and not actually listening. How do we engage empathy and true listening if we're not willing to change our minds? Are those mutually exclusive? How do we engage empathy while protecting ourselves from those who would argue in bad faith or whose beliefs harm us even if they're not intended to? Maybe that's not where listening needs to take place because some beliefs deserve or not deserve, but should be approached oppositionally.BLike flat earthers. You can't both sides that or racial supremacists of any sort. You don't give unchallenged voice to intolerant or uninformed views.AMm hmm. Yeah. Tolerance of hatred is dangerous. If you have the freedom to say hateful stuff, then I have the freedom to tell you you're wrong. And I guess we're talking about two different things when we talk about having one on one conversations with real people in our lives versus listening to the media or how politicians engage opponents. I think we've seen certainly a shift from the they go low, we go high philosophy towards what I would consider very gentle ribbing of the right. Again, thanks largely to Tim Walz’s astute observations of weirdness.BYeah, I agree. The proper response to someone being a troll is to outtroll them. Yeah. Or to mock them relentlessly.AYeah, I think there's a fine line though between trolling and actually getting down in the mud with them. And I don't think I don't think Democrats have done that. I think if the worst name calling they can do is say JD Vance is weird, then that is in no way comparable to JD Vance, for instance, saying that Haitian immigrants are eating pets, which you know, a claim that has had real consequences in the world. So I think that we can maintain a middle ground between always taking the high ground and always being the bigger person and engaging in harmful bullying.B Right.ALet's pause so I can go get the kids. We left off with me saying, Oh, I got to go get the kids. There have been several days since then. We did not get back to recording immediately. But that's okay because a couple of things have happened in the last few days that I think relate to our conversation.BDoes it have something to do with our governor?AYep, we watched the Vice Presidential debate on Tuesday night. And then the next day, I did some door knocking for some local DFL candidates.BDemocratic Farmer Laborer Party.A Yep so equivalent of Democratic Party. You should be proud of me because I did the door knocking specifically because of our conversation and me realizing, Wow, I am allowing myself to be way too comfortable. We'll go in chronological order. The Vice Presidential Debate. Tim Walz, JD Vance. I'm not going to rehash everything that went down. What I wanted to comment on was how this debate demonstrated my point about civility is not enough. In fact, civility can cover up evil. Right. Not to sound dramatic, butBI'm sure that Hitler had his JD Vance, too. You know, because Hitler was a very enthusiastic speaker at his rallies.AOh, Himmler, maybe?BYeah. I'm sure that he had someone who was more buttoned down, but just as rotten to the core.ASo my first impression, I didn't catch the beginning. I was teaching class. But I stepped into the watch party at a local bar afterwards. And the instant sense I got was that this feels normal. This feels like pre-Trump years. But I was also listening to the words JD Vance was saying, and it terrified me. The sense I got from people's reactions after was Oh, it was boring. It was refreshingly boring and respectful. Stephen Colbert did say that afterwards, Tim Was said something like, Yeah, there's a lot of commonality there, which in Minnesota means I hate your guts, sir. Something along those lines. Which I thought was funny.BYep. I'm sure there were a lot of people who watched the VP debate and were like, Oh, they're not fighting so much. That's a nice change. And you know, like, It speaks very much to Walz’s character. he was very much known for being a bipartisan congress person., that's what he was always trying to do in Congress was get people on both sides to buy in and to weigh in. that finding agreement you know,Alike It's necessary to get things done.BIt is necessary to get things done. When you carve of a horrible statement, a piece that like, Okay, this I agree with. This part, I can get behind and we can work with that. This wild nonsense over here, I'm going to ignore that. Let's push forward with the agreement part so that we can make anything happen. I think that there's a lot of ground to be gained by both sides because there’s that prevalent concept of it being a zero sum game. No, we can both get things that we want. There is overlap in the Venn diagram of things that we want. Hm. And we can make those things happen.AAs long as everyone is coming at the issue in good faith.BIn good faith, yes. That's true.AThat's the thing is you cannot come to the table prepared to problem solve when the other person is like, I'm going to destroy you.BYeah. When the other parties are interested in problem creation.AYes. My worry is that people will feel calmed by the “normalcy” of that debate and it will cover over the deep abnormality of the Republican platform.BYeah. Trump is a lemon, and JD Vance is the car salesman.AFor real. And of course, there's the appearance over substance debate, although I found JD Vance absolutely grating to listen to. I think it may have been the facial expressions, actually, more so than the voice. And then a lot of kind of subtle twisting of the truth, but also enough whoppers to make people be like, Oh, wait. He really has no commitment to the concept of truth. This is entirely utilitarian for him.BMm hm. I think my personal favorite moment in the debate, not that I loved it, but when he said, we wouldn't have a housing shortage if Kamala Harris didn't give millions of illegals houses.AIt was clearly a pre planned strategy to talk about Harris as though she is already the president.BRight.AWhich is the kind of thing that it's so blatantly wrong. But the very fact that it came out of his mouth, in a tone that implied like, Oh, this is just the way things are. It causes people to question reality.BMm hmm. Gas lighting.AAnd that was my impression. When I was watching, I was like, none of this sounds right.B None if it was right.ABut I was thinking to myself. Did I miss something? With Trump, it's the delivery matches the content.BMm hm.AI don't know. I shouldn't be surprised by this, but it was very disconcerting.BTrump is like Jabba the Hutt. The outside matches the inside. Although, I suppose literally the inside was three or four puppeteers.AI've never thought about how they did Jabba the Hutt. I kind of want to look it up now.BYeah. I guess in JD Vance's case, it's three raccoons in a trench coat. Three honey badgers in a trench coat.AOkay. In a stylish trench coatBA tailored oneAThat has a fake designer label on it. Three seat urchins in a trench coat?BBut he's slimier.AAnd it got me thinking about the format of a debate. And you're not going to believe that I'm saying this, but I don't like it.BWhat about all those years of being in debate team?AYeah, that's the point is I have fond memories of high school debate. And in retrospect, it was a philosophical exercise, right? It was solely a skill to hone and not about actually arriving at truth. Okay, I'm sounding a little bit too much like Plato there. I'll put it this way. When it comes to debate, the goal shouldn't be to arrive at truth because debate is often about looking to the future, making decisions, deliberative rhetoric, right. You can't know the future, and that's why rhetoric exists is to reason through situations that are not the kind of thing you can prove with a mathematical proof. But nonetheless, the goal is not at arriving at the best ideas when it comes to debate. This should not come as a surprise to anyone. I don't know why it feels like a revelation dawning on me, but if every resolution and in debate the resolution is just like the statement that you either have to agree with, affirmative, or disagree with, negative. If every resolution has to be worded such that theoretically an equal number of wins could happen on the affirmative side as the negative side, then it's not about the ideas. It is about the skill of arguing. Which is fine. I think that is a fine skill to develop for certain contexts, but there has to be a shared base of reality, and that was not happening on Tuesday night.BGive me some resolutions, just for context here.AOkay. Resolved. The United States has a moral obligation to mitigate international conflict. Here's another one. Economic development should take priority over environmental protection. There's a right answer, and it's not capitalism.BMm hmm. Even more so than presidential or vice presidential debates. High school debate isn't really about listening, right?ANo. I mean, you have to listen.BYou have to listen well enough toARebutB to be a butt again.AExactly that. But it's not the kind of listening that's an open stance. So when the point is to win, then you can do shady stuff to do so.BAh. The ends justified the means.A I don't remember anybody telling overt lies, but there certainly was a degree of stacking the deck. 'cause, of course. ButBYou put together words that sound convincing, right?AYeah, or you put together words that your coach gave you that sound convincing. So my poor little rural Minnesota debate team. We held our own in the regional contests, right? But we would get trounced in Minneapolis or St. Paul.BThose schools had enough resources in terms of people to be pretty selective.AI think it was more the style, and it was a style that involved talking fast, and throwing so much shit at your opponent that they can't clean it up in time to make their own argument.BThat sounds like a perfect encapsulation of the Trump presidency.AYes. And JD Vance had his very own bullshit trebuchet back there.BTrebushit.AIn light of that, I think Walz did an excellent job. He was very knowledgeable about the intricacies of the systems and policies involved and that he had a track record from his work in Minnesota to speak of.BYou could also tell he was an educator because he took notes.AYep. So it pisses me off when I see commentators being like, Yeah, he looked like a droopy dog out there, or what have you. Because it's like, yeah, he wasn't in his element, but that should not be what it's about.BI'm not sure who really should be in their element when they're you know, up to their armpits in rhetorical feces.AWow. There's actually a word for that strategy. It's called Gish galloping. Have you ever heard of that?BGish galloping. What the nonsense is that.AYou say a lot of lies really fast and overwhelm your opponent. And in debate, there was this thing called drops, where if you don't directly address somebody's contention, then it's an automatic point to them. And so there would be a lot of my opponent dropped my contention that blah, blah, blah, when it's like, I just didn't have enough time.B Taking a thing that might have value and then destroying it to make it a game.ABut imagine two Tim Walzes up there. Imagine if there were two candidates who weren't just disingenuously saying, Oh, yeah, we actually agree on this, but there was instead of a desire to win and destroy the other side, there was this effort at everyone's willing to change their mind, because they all want the same thing, which is a better country or what have you. So what's better than a debate? What formats get us to good ideas if not a debate. It's not an interview with the media. It's not a rally.BYou will not like my answer. Okay. I don't either.AOkay. Let's hear.BA long form interview where a candidate is able to express with detail, with nuance how they're going to address X or Y or Z.AWith live fact checking.BThe current person with the biggest following who does long form interviews is Joe Rogan.ANo. Oh, yeah, get Tim Walz on Joe Rogan 100%.BThat's so crazy it might work.AI don't think Joe Rogan is, he's not a paragon of a good faith conversationalist. ButBTrue, I am not arguing that. The format lends itself well to people who have well thought out ideas. It's important to get a lot of good stuff, but you can't get a lot of bad stuff, too. It drowns it out. Yeah and makes it useless.AI mean, the We Rate Dogs guy interviewed Tim Walz.BThat's true. Saw that on Facebook.AThat was not political in the least, and it was simply delightful. Mm hmm. That serves a different purpose. That's not about getting at good ideas, but it's about being human.B Mm hmm. I don't know that the other side of the ticket really can do that. No. I mean, No. You know, if it's ordering a doughnut or standing. Standing is a tough thing for anyone whose last name is Trump.AFirst day of standing lessons. And I think that's why people were surprised when Vance came out and was able to be coherent.BWhich is a big step up from certain, you know, other people on his ticket. Yeah.AThe bar is low. The bar is underground. This might be a stretch, but I'm going to tee you up. What could encourage candidates to listen to their constituents and each other and arrive at the best plan of action that represents the most people?BOh, I have an idea. Ranked choice voting.AOkay. Yes. So ranked choice voting would get us beyond the whole lesser two evils approach or, you know, feeling about voting. And it would force candidates to listen to more than their own devotees. I think that would make for better people in positions of power.BBetter democracy.AYes. And that's a structural thing. I think it's something that's picking up steam. Yeah, where possible we should be looking for things like that that enable and incentivize empathy and listening.  And we are back for a third attempt to finish this damn episode. No, this is what happens when you have two people working full time with kids, you know? I don't think it's the worst, though, because again, it's been another several days. But I'm starting to view my experiences through this filter of what does it mean to listen? Versus what does it mean to argue and be right. What about you?BYeah. I feel like it's coming at me from everywhere. So I recently started listening to a podcast that was recorded 2.5 years ago. So it's the skill share series by the Poor Proles Almanac.AThe skill, in this case, being communication.BCommunication. So this podcast was actually about how to introduce radical leftist ideas to non radical people, like family members, friends, people who are just around you. And they started saying a lot of the same sorts of things that have been in our conversations about don't just write someone off. You have to listen to them. That's how you figure out your common ground.AI think that the fact that we're talking about this has been changing my mind. So we had talked about the debate. The other thing that I did more recently was door knocking. This was for a couple of local candidates. Since we last talked, you also have done some door knocking. I've been doing some tabling about Project 2025, just to make sure people know what it is and what the implications are. So that reflects that I'm willing to have the conversations now. That doesn't mean I had any meaningful conversations.BHow did it go?ASo you know how I hate going door to door to sell girl scout cookies?BUh huh.ANow, think of how much less people enjoy talking about politics compared to cookies. The app that the campaign uses allows you to sort by obviously area, and also if they're strong dem or lean dem or undecided, and we were working on a list of undecided voters in our town. I don't think these people were undecided in the way that we think.BI think that instead of undecided, unaffiliated is more accurately.ANo, not even that. I think apathetic. Because you and I are so chronically online, well, me. Online and pretty engaged with politics. Mm we forget that there are people who are not. There are people who are just going to their jobs every day and having hobbies and living a life.BOr instead of having hobbies, having a second job and not living a life.AMost people didn't want to talk to us at all. I know they were there. I know they were avoiding us.BI had one of those too.AOnly one? You were in a different town. There might be a different vibe in a smaller town. And I don't blame people. I mean, it's not like I rush to open the door to a Jehovah's witness or whoever. So I don't blame people for not wanting to engage. There were a couple of people who made it clear that they weren't in support of our candidate, but they weren't mean about it. They were just dismissive. There was one person who was like, Yeah, I'm voting for both those candidates. Everyone else was just like, Oh, I haven't decided. I think that that's just a catch phrase to get us to go away.BYeah.ASo here I was imagining, I'm going to have conversations with undecided voters, picturing these undecided voters as people who are somehow aware of the main issues, and there's some sticking point and we're going to talk through it and whatever, and no, nobody is thinking that hard about it. Which, to some extent, makes me pissed off because it's like this has such huge implications at every level. This is one thing, one small way in which you can participate. Is it a flawed system? Yes. Is there another way around it? No.BWell, with legislation that's passed.AThere was one house that had a let's go Brandon sign. Mm hm. And as we're walking to the door, I'm like, I don't think these people are undecided.BLet’s go next door.ABut the person I was with was just like, Huh. There's nobody in the race named Brandon.BNot anymore.A Suffice it to say I'm glad that they didn't answer their door. I guess one of my insights from this experience is that we're not going to meaningfully change minds at this point. The persuasion is going to happen in getting people to vote period. Which is a different focus.BMm hmm. That's why it's called get out the vote.AYeah. I have not had the opportunity to do this magical listening that I've been reading about and thinking about. But I now realize that I've been too quick to shut the door, figuratively speaking on certain people. I do opt not to engage with trump supporters because at least I've been telling myself, they're not going to change. They're set in their ways. They're too far gone. Which might be true.BI think that that's pretty much true of anyone who falls into a cult of personality.ABut I don't know that they're too far gone. Until I talk to them.BUntil they prove it to you.AIt's very possible that they're still people who aren't worth conversing with, but guess what? That will emerge. And at that point, I can be like, I'm out of here. But it's been a real cop out, I think for me to assume they're not changing their mind. Therefore, I don't have to engage with them.BMm hmm.AAnd you know, some people argue, this was in a book of yours that you got.BThe solutionary way.Aby Zoe Weil. I was reading it, and she said, Let's not think in binary ways, us versus them. Good versus bad. Let's focus on solutions. Obviously, listening is a huge part of that. She said that she is aghast that she knows people who write off Trump supporters, because she thinks it's important to have people with a wide variety of viewpoints in your life and in your social circle. And here's the thing. She says, If you're from a marginalized group that's going to be harmed by these views, then fine. You don't have to. But if you have privilege, then you should be having these conversations. Mm hm. I'm not totally sold on that because I think that engaging those ideas can convey a sense of tolerance or permission, even if that's not the case.BOkay.AThere's this other podcast I was listening to. It's funny because it was how to decrease your election anxiety. I was like,BListen to the crazies.AI'm going to hit play so hard on that one. One of the suggestions was, have a diverse media diet. And the guy was like. I listen to news on the left, on the right, in the center. In what universe, is that going to ease my anxiety?BIf you want diversity in your media diet, you should get or you should listen to media from other places. That is a better kind of diversity. Listen to Al Jazeera, listen to BBC, you know?AOther parts of the world. Yeah.BThey will have distinctly different perspectives.AHaving a varied diet like actual diet doesn't mean you need to incorporate an equal amount of junk food to non junk food. You know?BI need more highly processed sugar in my life. That'll balance things out.AHere's a story that illustrates how historically, I've been very quick to.BI think I know.AYeah, I need to be very strategic in how I talk about this. Details have been changed to protect identities of those involved. I was meeting a friend's new partner for the first time, I didn't know very much about them. And this was at a time where I was just done politically. And I was thinking to myself, what's the best shortcut to learn if this is a person I'm going to invest any time in getting to know. So I shook his hand and said, Hi, my name is Abi. Did you vote for Trump? Horatio didn't respond super well. It wasn't an immediate. It wasn't an immediate no. It was equivocal. Anyway, the people who witnessed this interaction were aghast at how uncouth I was being.BHow brazen it was. But you were right about that person.AHe turned out to be a piece of shit in the worst way possible. I have been 110% vindicated. But I don't think that my approach is universally applicable. Had I hoped to have any influence whatsoever on this person's even impressions of Democrats or Feminazis, or whatever you know, he probably saw me as, look at me. Stereotyping again.B Yeah.AThe thing is, I should not act like the thing they would want to call me. That's not going to help my case. I’m budging a little bit since we first started talking about this. How did your door knocking go?BIt was okay. I was basically, you know, saying, can we count on your support for this candidate and that candidate?AWell that's the script.BThat's the script. It wasn't really about having conversations. It wasn't really about convincing so much. And if I had taken it that direction on my own volition, it might have been more interesting. I had one person say that they hadn't made their mind up. They're like, right down the middle between Republican and Democrat, whichACan I say that's stupid becauseByou said you didn't think that existed.AWell, no, okay. If it exists, it's stupid, and here's why. Okay. Maybe I spoke too soon about me having this change of heart. Um, if you're calling yourself straight down the middle, then it means you're defining yourself only in relationship to the other parties. It's not based on an inherent set of principles.BIt seems highly derivative.ASo if you insist that you're dead center, then what that really means is that your views have been drifting right along with the right wing in this country over the last several years. People who call themselves centrists probably give themselves a pat on the back. You're an independent thinker. I'm gonna piss people off.BYou know what? It's okay for someone to piss you off or being self righteous.AAs though sitting on the fence is some moral high ground.BI want both sides to court me.AWhich is kind of happening. I mean, imagine all the media attention the swing voters get. Yeah, it just it suggests an unwillingness to take a stance. And you know what, folks, if you're listening, and you're mad at me, let's have a conversation about it. I actually am willing to hear you out. I will give it my best shot, and that's not a joke.BGreat.AWhen having these conversations, one thing that will be key is making it about personal experience, instead of making it about media talking points. Well, what I mean by that is not even the media, but phrases that your candidate throws out. That in reality, haven't impacted your life in a significant way. Making it about your lives. What is tangible? What do you care about? I'm not in a place to make an informed argument about Haitian immigrants based on personal experience.BI don't know anyone from Haitia.A I don't live in Springfield, Ohio. The fact that this has gotten to the national level and become what it is The people in Springfield can speak to that issue, and my cat went missing. Oh, never mind, it was in my basement. That doesn't count. Right. But this is the impact that these immigrants have had on the local economy. That's something that can be seen and observed or The negative consequences of, you know, Trump's magnifying that view.BMm hmm. The negative economic impact on Springfield. The police officers have to protect these people now who are put in jeopardy.AI don't want to hear what you have to say if you're not the kid evacuating from your school because of, you know, the bullshit bomb threats.BYou listen to victims. You don't listen to perpetrators. That's the way it should work.AI think that has more potential of getting somewhere than these big abstract ideas where so much misinformation has been injected. I got this idea actually from listening to Pete Buttiegieg, who, I think, is a great example of the communicator I wish I could be because he's so well informed, he will talk to the other side. He'll go on Fox News, you know? He gets a good grasp of why people feel the way they do. I appreciate that he balances that out with calling out bullshit when he sees it. Somehow, he can do both. I'm jealous of him for that reason. I wouldn't want to be on the opposite side of a debate against him.BHm.AWhat if we could start from a place of agreement, and my favorite modern rhetoricians, Perelman and Olbrechts-Tyteca say the starting point of an argument is agreement.BYes, andAAnd where does the yes and come from?BImprov comedy.AYeah. So it was the Zoe Weil book that tied in improv with listening skills and problem solving versus debating. It's the idea that you don't try to redirect things. You go with the flow. In the case of an exchange of ideas, you can say yes, and let's add more nuance to it. Now, I don't mean to imply that all these ideas are somehow novel. This is something that the field of rhetoric has been exploring. Since the beginning of civilization. Well. A might be an exaggeration, but. But it is undeniable that there has been a privileging of the debate model, of the win lose model. A through at least the Western rhetorical tradition, right? Even in classical rhetoric times, there were some philosophers or orators who tried to complicate the view of rhetoric equals persuasion, a little bit. Quintilian famously said that rhetoric is a good man speaking well.BHm.AAnd what that definition appears to do is bring ethics into the equation.BOr morality.AMorality, yes, a good man speaking well.BThe problem is, Is it a good man speaking well?AA good man speaking well, actually. It sounds good in theory, but it implies that the effectiveness and the ethics of communication just happen to align most of the time. But what we really need rhetoric for is those situations where they don't. So where does that leave us?BHis statement that presumes that there's a universal good.AIt also functions to exclude bad rhetors.BAh, yeah.A Which isn't fair, right?BBecause I mean, who else is going to eat the dogs and the cats?AI'm thinking more like Mein Kampf.BOh, yeah.A It was effective, sure. Was it coming from a good man? No. I don't think it's fair for rhetoric to be like, Nah, that doesn't concern us 'cause he wasn't a good guy. Zooming ahead to the modern rhetorical era. Kenneth Burke brings in this concept of identification or consubstantiality, being one with one another. That common ground, right. And Kenneth Burke did not come along and say, identification is the better way to rhetoric. He said, it's a way in addition to the Aristotelian way. When we look at scholars who say down with persuasion altogether. That's when things get interesting.BDown with persuasion, are you trying to convince me?AThat's the inherent problem, right? So this is one of my favorite articles. The womanization of rhetoric by feminist scholar, Sally Miller Gearhart in 1979. She says that persuasion is violence. And the conquest model, the win lose model is pretty apparently violent. But even the conversion model, which she says is more subtle, even that is violent.BIt's imperialist.A“The difference between a persuasive metaphor and a violent artillery attack is obscure and certainly one of degree rather than of kind.” What do you think?BIt's a good way to tease out intentions.AWhat do you mean?B If you are trying to change someone's mind, you know, you're viewing them as a general, looking at a map of the battlefield. You’re trying to figure out how to take down their defenses,AMarshaling your arguments.BYes.AIs there no room for persuasion then? If it's all inherently violent. She's making a very strong effort to persuade people. That persuasion is bad. I personally find it provocative. Moving ahead in time, Foss and Griffin in 1995, coin invitational rhetoric, which also moves away from the conquest model and invites listeners to understand your perspective. Which it occurs to me is still ultimately self focused. I'm inviting you to listen to me.BTrue.AAgain, as long as it's reciprocal is fine, but I don't necessarily see that built into the definition here.BSo, if we're going with metaphors, instead of I'm going to march in and take over your ideas, I'm putting on an art show. Come and see. It's a one way sharing, but it is a sharing rather than a declaring.AInteresting. And then there's similar perspectives from outside of rhetoric. Psychologist Carl Rogers was famous for that approach of before you try to argue, make sure you've understood the other side as fairly and accurately as possible. You know, I've seen people adapt writing assignments based on that philosophy. Like, you're going to write a paper about this topic, but you're not going to develop a thesis statement an d three supporting details. You're going to you're going to put their perspective in your own words. And that's we do that, right? I mean, mostly I do it to you when I think you're not listening.B Hm?ANot funny.BIt's always funny.AYou try it every time. Yeah. Where I'll be saying something. And then I have to be like, Hey, say back to me what I just said. How do you feel in those moments?BArrghh. That's usually how I feel.ALike, ugh, I should have been listening to begin with.BUgh, this is going to require effort. I’ve got to rub brain cells together for this.AI mean, it's good that we check in with each other that way because we very much misinterpreted.BIt's kind of your way of foisting reflective listening on me.AViolently foisting. That's not to say that there's not a place for agonistic rhetoric or kind of fighting, conflict based rhetoric. Susan Jarrett, as an instructor, had this was in the 90s again, had witnessed some of the unforeseen consequences of the rhetoric and composition field’s resistance to conflict. So like in a classroom context, there's male students. There's female students. There's students of color. There's international students. There's students with disabilities. You know,BNon traditional students.A Exactly. And there are power dynamics that cannot be ignored in that context. And so the person who's socialized to be empathetic and the person who's socialized to believe that their views are automatically deserving to be heard, that's not going to be an equal exchange.BYeah.AAnd so Jarrett argues that we need to train students so that they can essentially stand up for themselves. Hm. And I think that's fair.F[purring]BOh Fig.  Yes. So you were talking about how Zoe Weil was saying that people with privilege are the ones who should be reaching out. Along those lines, I was listening to another one of the Prole’s Almanac that said that it's important the way that you structure protests as well. You want to have the people with the most privilege in front because the people with the most privilege are least likely to be met with force by police or protester or counter protesters.AWow. So that's different than white saviorism, right? That's different than white people coming into a protest movement and saying, Because I'm white, I get to say the stuff. It sounds like it's a very, like a logistical protective situation.BBecause I'm white, I'm going to stand between person of color and the police. And I mean, if you think about it, too, if it's you and the fascists. You want the big white guy who looks like he just got off a shift of doing security to be in front.AI will say you had no like, you were not worried about doing your door knocking.BNo.AI was. You know, there is a degree of risk involved, even in knocking on doors and talking to people, especially when you are wearing your political views on your sleeve orBOn a shirt, so to speak, literally.AOr on your sticker or on your pamphlet that you're handing out. The day I was doing the door knocking, there were two other people there with me, and they were both young men of color. And one of them had gone off on his own and reported back that he was not treated well. Again, nothing dangerous per se, but people like ripping up the sheet that he'd handed out and It's justBThat's petty.AYeah. And the patterns are obvious enough in society that it's a fair chance that race was part of the issue.BMm hmm.ASo I am further chagrined at my own apathy up until recently, my own letting the people who are already oppressed put themselves on the line. But better late than never. But in thinking through all this, I've been obviously reading around for solutions and perspectives, and continuing in the rhetoric trajectory, what's probably the most relevant is this concept of rhetorical listening, which comes from Krista Ratcliffe. She originally wrote her book on it in 2005, and I read the 2022 book, which she co authored with Kyle Jensen. And this book is called rhetorical listening in action. So it builds on the theoretical concepts of rhetorical listening by suggesting, these are things you can do in the classroom, step by step, which I liked, because it's one thing to say, Hey, you should listen better to other people, and it's another thing to be like, Hey, Rhetorical listening is hard. It engages parts of our brain that we're not used to using. It goes against our conditioning to think one winner, one loser, and rhetorical listening requires us to be vulnerable and humble.BYeah.AThis perspective does help address some of the concerns or pitfalls I've been referring to all this time, like what do you do in a situation where there is a right answer. So they say the whole point is to be able to act. Analyzing and understanding has to come first, though. So what's the purpose of rhetorical listening? It helps you anticipate counter arguments of those that you disagree with. It can be a step towards persuading audiences to think and act differently. They need not be mutually exclusive. And I think this is key. Rhetorical listening helps you to think and act differently yourself. So I'm glad that they brought this up because I was, you know, the argumentative part of my brain wasBready to fight them?A Yes. But they acknowledge that a problem is people acting in bad faith. And they say to that, “There is no easy solution if no change occurs, the other people involved in such a situation, must brainstorm waste to expose the bad faith and or limit its impact, and then act.”B Yes, the investigative journalist solution. The best sanitizer is sunlight.AI think that's important. That doesn't answer the question of how do we know if someone is acting in bad faith? I used to think that the test is to ask them, Is there anything that would change your mind? And if they say no, then they're not there for a fair exchange of ideas. But then I realized, there are topics that I would say, I'm never changing my mind on that that I have subsequently changed my mind on.BOh.AAnd I wouldn't have changed my mind without getting exposure to different views. So when we encounter these things, I think the idea is that we have options. It's not that a purely empathetic listening stance is inherently better, a more oppositional or antagonistic stance, because like I said before, some positions should be called out as the bad ideas that they are.BSome ideas need to be antagonized.AYeah. Asking questions, focusing on personal impacts, personal experiences. Those are ways to draw out where people came to a position. This was a tip actually from the Braver Angels group that I was talking about before. Instead of asking someone, why do you believe that? Ask, how did you come to this view? Because that's where the story is. I do want to quickly run through the moves of rhetorical listening.BShow me your moves. Sorry.ARhetorical listening invites these moves. I'm not going to go in super depth on them because you should read the book yourself. But I also don't want to leave this episode on a fuzzy note.BWith no action items.ARight.B¡That's right, folks. There's homework.AOkay. Number one, assume an open stance. Again, this is something that I'm working on. I can engage beliefs that are dangerous or false without condoning them. If you aren't sure you can do that, maybe you're not the one to have that conversation, and I think we have to be honest with ourselves.BThat is an important first step in all things.AYeah, or if you recognize you're in an especially vulnerable place, then don't be trying to disprove I don't know. What's RF K's deal?BIndeed.ADon't go into a cult trying to break it open if you know that you are in a lonely and vulnerable state, right? It's just go to suck you in.BOr the vulnerability might not be to being seduced but to being attacked.AThat, too. You don't have to assume an open stance to a view that denies your humanity. People should be fully permitted and encouraged to set boundaries in that case.BAn open position does not mean make yourself fully vulnerable to being exploited.AAnd so that might mean that if you are a privileged person, maybe you need to be the one to step in and engage those ideas, again, not to condone them, not to be persuaded by them and not necessarily to attack the person believing them, but to try to make a dent.B I mean, if nothing else, I think that inspiring thought in people who have beliefs that they haven't questioned. That's a good start.AMm hmm. And this is why it's not worthwhile to necessarily write people off as quickly as I have tended to. Everyone who changed their mind started somewhere.BIt's true.AThe second move is to lay competing claims and cultural logics side by side. This needs some unpacking. Cultural logics are “ways of reasoning, common to groups of people who come together based on common knowledge, beliefs, or goals, and who share their ideas through discourse.” The example they give is Galileo and the cultural logic of science versus the cultural logic of religion and how they clashed. So it's not just about one claim versus another, but it's about what's the story behind this? What is informing this? What's the invisible context? Three, “pause to stand under the discourse of self and others in order to hear claims and cultural logics that may break through usual ways of thinking. Four, analyze and reflect on what you hear to better understand yourself and others. And five, design when possible win win solutions, which are not conceptualized as victories, but rather as situations wherein participants feel as if their stakes have been heard, considered, and factored however possible into decisions.” The example of walking through this process that they give is the cultural logics of in terms of race, color blindness. Well, first white supremacy then color blindness, multiculturalism and critical race theory? They walk through? These are the different associated beliefs that come along with these logics, and these are the scripts that come along with it. That encourages you or students to ask questions of the cultural logic. Like, what does this offer to its proponents? What are people getting out of it? What am I getting out of my belief? What problems does it cause? So by asking questions like this, “listening writers learn to complicate rhetorical problems and to generate information that helps them decide how to address different audiences. Keeping in mind that the point is not to tell an audience what they want to hear, but rather to present the listening writer’s ideas in ways that their audiences can hear them.” All that to say, there are tools out there that can help me, you know, us, as individuals to become better listeners. There are tools that if you are an instructor, you can use to help students become better listeners, because that's a skill set that has not been prioritized at the same level asBSpeaking.AYou know, speaking, writing, arguing. I have shifted my position somewhat. Mmm. From the time we started recording weeks ago till today, and I'm continuing to look at situations differently.BLook at you. Good job.AYou don't mean that in a patronizing way, do you?BI don't mean that in a patronizing way.AThank you. What it comes down to is, do I want to be right, or do I want to make a difference? Because what I've gotten hung up on so much is I shouldn't have to listen to those ideas. I shouldn't have to talk to those people. We shouldn't live in the world that we live in. Mm hmm. But we do. And digging my heels in is not gonna move the needle. What is with my mixed metaphors today?BMixing metaphors over here like a shark in a china shop.AHow did the shark get there?BIt was a rogue wave. Sling shotted it out of the ocean.ASo, I hate that this is the reality where we're awash in misinformation and hatred. But it's the only reality we have.BYou hate.A I hate the hatred. Yeah. And so I have to let go of my I don't know, weird sense ofBSuperiority?AUh I mean you're not wrong. My sense that the world should operate. According to what I perceive as what is just and right. It I'm still going to have a vision for what is just and right. But it's not going to get there if I don't put myself out there in ways that make me uncomfortable. So there, how's that for vulnerability?BMeasured, but okay.ASummarize what I've just said.BThat's what the recording is for.AHow about you? Have you changed your perspectives at all?BI’ve just been superior this whole waiting for you to catch up.ANo, but for real. Have you changed your mind at all?B Yeah, definitely.AYour lips are twitching as though you're trying to hold in a laugh.BI've been persuaded that even people who are unwilling to deal with the other side can change.AAre you referring to me?BYes.AAh. You got me. Good night, Benton.BGood night, Abi. Good night world.AGood night. Good night, bowl of mush. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story.BStory time.AAbout the first debate I ever did in high school. Because it's embarrassing. Good. The topic was the death penalty. Which, like I said, feels like a no brainer now. The state shouldn't fucking kill people. And I was on the side that was pro death penalty in this particular debate.BKiller move.AAnd one of my arguments was that sometimes people escape from prison, paroled, not escape, and keep criming.BKeep criming.AI had a story about this killer, Kenneth McDuff. Who escaped from prison, I meant paroled, and went on another killing spree, because he hadn't been put to death. When he could have been.BReal story?AThis is a real guy. But what happened was that I was really nervous. It was my first debate, right? So I misspoke, and I called him Kenneth McDuck. And the moment you say something like that out loud, and you realize this is so inappropriate for the context, the very fact of that becomes hilarious. So I have visions of this serial killer sliding down mountains of gold like Scrooge McDuck. And You know, I had trouble holding it in. I'll put it that way. That wasn't a great look, laughing uncontrollably while trying to tell the dark tale of this killer.

July 26, 2024

Recycling: You still don’t get it

Recycling or trash? It's a question you may have asked yourself when faced with a gross can, a heavily-stickered art project, or some weird plastic thing. Benton hijacks the podcast to teach Abi the behind-the-scenes of the recycling process: How it works, how effective it is, the consequences of "wish-cycling," and why plastic sucks so much. He addresses what steps you can take to make recycling work better, besides just putting things in the right bin. Sources and further reading TC Talk episodes mentioned: “Cult rhetoric.” https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/techcommtalk/episodes/Cult-rhetoric-e1b1gpi/a-a70h9n0 “Tech comm from outer space: More lessons from alien movies.” https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/techcommtalk/episodes/Tech-comm-from-outer-space-More-lessons-from-alien-movies-e1md55n/a-a8cdbc1 Wikipedia articles mentioned: “Recycling” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recycling “Sustainability” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability “Microplastics” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microplastics “Greenwashing.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing “Wishcycling.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishcycling Music credits: Opening theme:  S: Disco Funk Loop by SergeQuadrado | License: Attribution NonCommercial 3.0 Ensemble. (2008). “So they say” [Song]. On Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog Soundtrack [Album]. Mutant Enemy. Wheatus. (2000). “Teenage dirtbag” [Song]. On Wheatus [Album]. Columbia. Image credit: Siera Wild, “Recycling sign green.png.” CC BY-SA 4.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0>, via Wikimedia Commons Transcript AAh man, how did all this ranch dressing get in my keyboard?BHello, this  is  Benton,  a  trained  engineer and  science  literacy  fanatic who  has  been  described  as a  walking  WikipediaABy  me.BBy  you.ABut  others  agree.BYes,  I  will  be your  host  this  week  on  what I'm  hoping  will  be  the first  of  many  episodes  of  Still Don't  Get  It. Still  don't  get it is a  podcast  that  explores  subjects  that  are largely  misunderstood  or  oversimplified by  the  media  or  the  general  public.AEverything? BGiven infinite  time, Sure. AOkay. BSo  the  purpose of  this  podcast  is  to  convey scientific  and  to  a  lesser  extent, policy  literacy  to  the  people. this  is  not  your  regularly  scheduled  TC  talk.ABut  it  kind of is  because  I mean, if Tech  Comm  doesn't  intersect with  science  literacy, then  I  don't  know  what  does.BThen  what  are  we  even  doing  here?  With  me in  the  studio  for  this  episode is ADr.  Abigail  Bakke. I'm  a  technical  communication  professor and  I  specialize  in  topics like  medical  communication, information  literacy, and as  of  late, user  experience research  methods.BFabulous.ASo I  know  you  haven't  asked  for  advice.BOkay.ABut, so  you  want  to start  a  podcast  called  Still  Don't  get  it.BYes.ASo  you're  insulting  your  audience  right  off the  bat  by  implying  their  ignorance. Do  you  think  that's  a  smart  move?BYes?ANo.  Tell  me  your  reasoning.BSo  my  reasoning  is,  first  of  all, I  wanted  to  have  a  catchy  name that's  not  very  long and  kinds of gives  you  the  idea of  what  the  podcast  is  about.AYou know, come  to  think  of  it, it's  in  the  same  vein  as  You're  wrong  about,Bwhich  sounds  like  an  insult,  doesn't  it?AYeah,  but  I  mean,  it's  pretty  much  right. Every  episode is something  I've  been  wrong  about.BFair enough.ASo  do  you  think  that there's  enough  science illiteracy that you?B Oh, God,  yesAI  know  that was sort  of  a  rhetorical  question.BThat  was  a  softball  question.AThis  is  kind  of  a  trial and  we're  publishing  it  as a  TC  Talk  and your goal  is  to  see  what  response  you  get?BMy  goal  is  to  see  what  response  I  get, see  if  there  is  interest  for  more. Please  do  give  us  feedback if  there  is  a  means  to  do  so.AWe  don't  use  Twitter  anymore.BBecause  Twitter  in the  Shitter. Enough  said  about  that.ABut  I  mean,  I  still  have an  account  and  that's where  I've  pointed  people  in  the  past. So  if  you  DM  me, it'll  at  least  show  up  in my  e -mail,  and  I  won't  miss  I so  Ar_bakke.BSo  I  wanted  to  start  out by  saying,  thank  you, Abi,  for  allowing  me  to hijack  your  podcast  for  this  experiment.AAnd  you  know  what's  the  best  part  about  it?BWhat  is  it?AYou're going  to  do  the  editing  this  time.BYes,  I  am.AAnd  you've  got  12  pages  of  notes, which  means  you've  got your  editing  cut  out  for  you.BYeah,  that  was  good.AFootnote. Benton did NOT in fact edit this episode. We  do  have a  cocktail  here  that  I prepared  in  anticipation  of  recording, so even  though  it's  not  our regularly  scheduled  TC  Talk, may  we  have  our  regularly  scheduled  pre-TC  talk toast?BYes.  I  like  that. What's  it  called  again?AA  gin  buck.  But today,  it  basically  amounts  to a  fancy  looking  ginger  ale because we ran out of gin midway through the preparation.BAlso, if  you  don't  hear  our  usual  theme  song, it's  Spotify's  fault.ASpotify.BYeah,  they  took  that  option  away.AIf  this  is  your  first  time  listening  to TC  talk,  start  somewhere  else.BOoh,  but  where?  One of  my  personal  favorite  episodes is  cult  rhetoric. We  did  that  back  in  the  early  days.AOkay.  I  really  liked the  one  where  we  talked about  science  fiction,  specifically, what  can  aliens  tell  us  about? Oh,  yes.  Technical  communication. Yep,  I  think  we did  that  one  about  a  year  ago.BRight.  Probably  a  little more ASort  of  our  season opener  for  a  season  two. Actually that  would  be  a  good  place  to  start because  that  kind  of  gets  at, you  know,  the  basics  of tech comm  and  audience  and  such. With  alien  movies  thrown  in  for  good  measure.BMm  hmm.  Or,  I  mean, I  guess  you  could  listen  to this  episode,  But  don't  let  it  set  expectations for  the  excellent  work  that  Abi  does.AOh,  you're  too  kind.BUh,  sometimes, AThe  excellent  work  that  Abi  does? It's  a  joint  effort, buddy.BIt  is.AAnd  I  know  some  people  listen  just  for  you.BOh.AI  mean,  it  may  be like  your  mom's  best  friend, but  that  counts,  nonetheless.BI  didn't  expect  this  to  turn into  an  exercise  inA mutual  adoration?B But  I'm  not  mad  at  it.  Okay,  so  today  I'm excited  to  talk  about  recycling. Now,  just  for  listener  context, I  am  the  discard czar in  our  home,  am  I  not?AYou  take  the  garbage  out, you  take  the  recycling  out,  et  cetera.BYes.  And  I  sort our  household  discards  into  trash, recycling,  plastic  film recycling,  and  compost. So  you  would  probably  say  I'm  a  touch fanatical  in  the  subject,  right Abi?AYes.  I  mean,  you  could  call  me the  discard  Czar  in another  sense  of  the  word, that  I  love  to  throw  things  out  and to  me  it  matters  less where  the  final  destination  is, as  long  as  it's  out  of  our  house.BRight,  so  you're  the  Discard  Czar, with  discard  being  a  verb. I  am,  with  discard  being  a  noun.AYeah,  that's  fair.BIt's  a  co-czar  ship. And  how  do you  feel  about  our  subject  of  recycling?AI  have  mixed  feelings  about  it. I  really  care  about  it. But  I've  also  heard  in  recent  years about  how  it  originated  as sort of a  deflection  on  the  part  of the  polluting  corporations  to kind place  responsibility  at  the  individual  level.BIndividual  and  municipal  levels. YeahAAnd  I've  also  heard  that  a  lot  of stuff  doesn't  actually  get recycled,  which  is  discouraging.BYes,  it  is.ASo  I  want  to  know  more  about it  and  I  want  to  know  that  there's a  glimmer  of  hope  that  when  we  do, or  I  should  say  when  you  do deliberately  sort  out  recyclables, that  it's  making  a  difference. I  suggested  calling this  episode  recycling  rhetoric, because  I  think  it's  kind  of  about  that. But  I  know  that's  a  little  bit  like  me  trying to  make  it  about my  thing.Bhelping  the  environment, That's  an  excellent  purpose to  identify  for  recycling. One  of  the  early  uses  for recycling  was  to  get easy  feedstock  for manufacturing  like  specifically  metals. And  I'm  going to  ask  you  to  interrupt  me  as  you  see  fit. Oh Fern,ACan  Fern  interrupt  you  as  she  sees  fit?BOh,  she  can't  be  stopped. To  help  me  keep  this  from  being too  heavily  a  data  dumpAanother  piece  of advice  that  you  did  not  ask  for.BOkay, Abut  kind  of  the  point  of  tech  comm  is to  do  the  work  yourself  of transforming  a  data  dump into  a  meaningful  message. So  I  think  you've  skipped an  important  step  potentially.BOkay,  well  we'll  see. Wikipedia's  definition  of  recycling is “Recycling  is  the  process  of  converting waste  materials  into new  materials  and  objects. This  concept  often  includes the  recovery  of  energy  from  waste  materials… this  is an  alternative  to  incineration  of  waste.” A  little  more  digging  revealed that  this  referred  to the  recovery  of  electricity  and/or heat  from  the  incineration  of  waste. Which  allows  some  people  to  pull some  semantic  yoga  and call  burning  garbage  recycling.AOoh  see,  it  is  about  rhetoric.BYes,  so we've  barely  started, but  we  already  managed  to  venture deep  into  the  heart  of  green  washing  land. Wikipedia  defines  greenwashing as  “a  form  of  advertising  or  marketing  spin in  which  green  PR  and  green  marketing  are deceptively  used  to  persuade the  public  that  an  organization's products,  aims, and  policies  are  environmentally friendly.” ACan  I  give  a  sort of  funny  and  pathetic  example?BYeah. AOkay.  I  saw  on  Reddit somebody  posted, so  this  was  in the  mildly  infuriating  sub  red. It.  Mm  hm. Somebody  said  that  they had  ordered  a  bunch  of bamboo  straws  to  cut  down on  their  carbon  footprint.BUh  huh. AAnd  every  straw  was individually  wrapped  in  plastic  packaging.BUgh. I  know  I've  seen  that  with  metal  straws, people  posting  that  sort  of  thing. So key words in  that  definition  are spin  and  deceptive  advertising. In  this  case  it's  selling  products  or image  as  though they  are  responsible.ACan  I  give  you  another  example?BYes. AAnd  this  one  stands  out  to  me  because it  was  just  such  egregious  product  placement. But  we  were  watching  a  movie, I  can't  remember  which  one, but  somebody  was,  you  know, on  the  loose  and  the  police  were  like, yeah,  he  drives  a Prius? What  kind  of  criminal  drives a Prius? A  socially  conscious  one. It  just  struck  me  as like  very  oh,  what's  the  word?BHam  fisted?AYeah.  And  also  like, you  know Prius paid  to  like, have  that  association Breiterated for everyone  to  see  while  they think  they're  watching  a  movie.AYeahBAll  right. So  if  you  would  please  try  to  keep this  idea  in  mind  as  we  talk.  Back  to  recycling. Pun  intended  because  bringing  it  back. Yeah.  Anyway,  collection  of recycling  tends  to  be  done exclusively  by  the  same companies  that  do  trash collection  through a  contract  with  the  local  government. So right there  you've  got  typically big  business  dealing  with small  governments  on  a  monopoly  basis. What  could  go  wrong right?AAre  there  not  small business  garbage  collectors?BYes,  there  are  but broad  brush typically  you're  dealing  with  like the  waste  management  companies, national  businesses  or  even  international, in  some  cases  dealing  with  local  governments. They  want monopoly  contracts  which  the smaller  the  city  the more they're  able  to  flex  that  power. So these  companies  are  used to  dealing  with  a  single  stream or  single  sort  where  all  trash  is  created  equal. They  have  this  equipment  and  training  for one  thing  and  they  want to  do  it  the  same  for  recycling, which  is  how  you  get  single  stream  recycling. Have  you  ever  had  to  sort your  recyclables,  Abi?AYes.BHow  hard  was  that  process?AIt  was  more  ambiguous  than  you'd  think. Like,  we  still  have  that  question  too,  like, is  this  cereal  box  recyclable, you  know,  or  this  pizza  box  is  not? Because  whatever. You  know, multiply  the  categories  you  have  to sort  in,  multiply  the  complexity.BBut  in  terms  of  how  to  sort  things, I  think  that the  more  categories  they  give  you, the  easier  it  is  to  say  that, oh,  this  is  not  that,  this  is  this, would  you  agree  or?AIn  theory.BOn an individual level, so  not  too  hard, especially  if  you  sort  it  as  you  create  it.AIf  it  came  with  like  a  PSA or  something  like  actual  technical  communication  about how  to  recycle  and  why  or  how to  sort  and  why,  that'd  be  different.BI  remember  having  to have  the  recycling  sorted  when we  put  it  out  on  the  curb when  I  was  growing  up  at  home. The  city  went  around  with  a  pick  up, pulling  a  trailer  that had  different  bins  on  it. This is the  city  doing  the  collecting as  opposed  to  a  big  company  doing  it. That  was  like  in  the  '90s.AI  thought  the  single  sort  recycling nowadays  was  because  they  have better  equipment  that can  automatically  sort  it. Shouldn't  technology  be  able to  do  that  by  now?BYes,  that  is  one  of  the  reasons. Do  you  remember  going  to Cash  Wise  in  Fargo  where  they just  had  like  a  dozen  bins sitting  in  the  parking  lot for  you  to  drop  off  recycling?ANo,  because  you  were the  discard  czar.BEven  then.AYep. BBut  yeah, that's  something  that  still is  the  case  in  a  lot  of  places, but  we  currently  have single  sort  recycling collection  where  we  live, so everything  recyclable  goes  into  the  same  bin. Have  you  ever  had  to  fish  through the  mixed  recycling  bin  for a  particular  thing, ANo. Like  what?  Why  would  I  need  to  do  that?BLike  a  kid  put  a  thing in,  something  that  had  to be  rescued  from  the  recycling  bin?AOh,  yeah. Yeah. BAnd  what  was  that  process  like?AI  don't  know.  Anytime  you  have  to dig  your  arm  down  into  like a  slimy  bin  of  refuse,  that's  not  pleasant.BExactly.  A  time  consuming  gross  pain. Now  imagine  that  at  industrial  scale, because  that's  what  we're  talking about  when  even  with  a  city  of 50,000.  All  those  tons of  material  have  to  be sorted  for  any  of  it  to  be  recycled. A  facility dedicated  to  sorting  single  stream  recycling can  typically  process  a  truck  load  an  hour. The  flip  side  of  this  is that  single  stream  typically sees  a  30%  increase  in  participation. Which  is  good Abecause  it's easier  at  the  consumer  end.BIt's  easier  for  the  consumer to  put  a  thing  in  the  bin, so  you  get  more  things  in  the  bin.AThat's  a  very  interesting  stat,  thank  you.BIt's  a  balance  of  more  material  captured versus  a  lower  quality  of  material  captured. One  weakness  of  single  sort  is  that  all  of the  material  has  to  go through  the  sorting  machinery. This  means  that  things  that  are  too  small, like  jar  lids  or aluminum  foil  candy  wrappers,  or  too large  like  a  polypropylene tote are  fully  recyclable, but  the  system  cannot  handle  them. Also  note  on  the  machinery, plastic  bags  are  an  absolute  no. They  gum  up  the  works. Please  remember  not  to  put  them  in plastic  bags  when  you put  things  in  the  recycling  bin. Another  element  of  single  sort that  makes  it  the  Walmart  of recycling  is  that  it generates  the  least  valuable  product. But  as  things  are  currently, economically,  money  does  matter and  does  drive  decisions. The  average  value  per  ton of  single  stream  recyclables is  lower  than  most  of  its  components would  be  if  they  were  presorted. That's  because  it  has  to  be  hauled  to a  sorting  facility  and  processed. This  brings  me  to  another  key  issue about  recycling: transportation.AOh,  I  never  thought  of  that. So  they  don't  just  have  these  sorting facilities  in  every  city?BNot  in  every  city,  no. Sometimes  the  value  of single  stream  recyclables  is  lower than  the  tipping  fee  at  a  landfill. Meaning  the  amount  per  ton  that  is  charged for  just landfilling  something.AIf  it's  cheaper, that's  where  it's  going  to  go.BIf  it's  cheaper,  a  lot  of  cities will  make  the  economic  decision  instead  of the  moral  one.  That  isn't  the  rule. A  lot  of times  the  value  is high  enough  that  it's  worth  processing at  least  then  sometimes the  various  streams  that come  out  the  back  end  of a  sorting  facility  will just  be  quietly  thrown. Generally,  recyclables  are  fairly  bulky, meaning  that  when  they're  being  moved around  the  truck  doing  it  isn't  at  full  weight  load, thereby  it  isn't  getting its  ideal  hauling  efficiency, which  is  already  not  great. So at  this  point. How  are  you  feeling  about  the  decision  to let  me  hijack  the  podcast?AI  don't  know.  I  mean,  you've got  a  captive  audience.  I  can't,  I  can't  just  run away  when  you  get  into  lecture  mode.BNext  question. Do  you  feel  like  you're  getting the  reality  about  recycling?AYeah.BWell,  I  have  news  for  you, you're  still  not  getting  it.AOh,  nice Set  up.B Thank  you.A I  walked  straight  into  it.BUh  huh.  So  there  are, as  we've  discussed,  a  number  of  types  of materials  that  can  technically  be  recycled. New  complication,  there  are two  different  categories of  recycled  materials. It's  not  really  that  complicated  though. Pre  consumer  and  post  consumer  are the  designations  for  where the  material  to  recycle  came  from. You  may  have  seen these  distinctions  on  packaging. Where  the  manufacturer  is  trying  to brag  about  how  green  their  product  is. Pre  consumer  waste  is  scraps  and failed  products  or  by products  that  never  see  the  consumer. This  gives  it  a  much  higher  potential  for reuse  and  recycling  because there  is  much  lower  diversity  of material  collected  at  a  specific  location than  you  would  have  as discards  from  an  individual  or group  discarding  waste from  all  of  their  activities. In  some  cases,  such a  minimal  amount  of  effort  is required  to  reclaim  these  materials  that  it's barely  considered  recycling  by  the  company, but  rather  waste  reduction  or  something  of the  sort. So  claims  that  something contains  pre  consumer  content are  less  praiseworthy. Post  consumer  waste  is  obviously  waste discarded  by  the  end  consumer  and is  therefore  usually  much more  difficult  to  recycle  because it  is  often  mixed  in  with  other  items, probably  contaminated,  and  takes more  energy  to  collect  it  because  it isn't  generated  in  industrial  quantities at  industrial  purity  in  a  single  location.A I  do  have  a  question.BSure. AAre  we  going  to  talk  about how  much  you  have  to  clean your  recyclables  because, you  know,  say  something  canned. How  much  do  you  have  to  rinse  it out  versus, can  you  just  dump  it  in  or  you  know? We  had  this  debate  the  other  day when  the  kids  finished off  their  spray  cheese.B Oh,  yes.AWhich  they  begged  for  and I  was  glad  to  see  it  go.BYes. ABut  I  was  like,  Put  it  in the  trash  and  you  were  like,  No, put  it  in  the  recycling  And  I said  no  because  there's  no  way  to  like clean  it  out  based on  the  way  the  container  is  designed.BMm  hm.  That  is  a  good  question. And  I  don't  have  the  answers  to  everything. Obviously,  it  will  depend  upon the  processor, the  facility  that  does  the  actual  recycling.AYeah,  so  hire  technical  communicators  to  educate  your  people.BEven  better. Hire  technical  communicators to  educate  your  engineers  and  CEOs, because  they're  the  ones  responsible for  what  you're  able  to  buy.AThat's  fair.BAnd  it's  a  smaller  group, ALess receptive.BYeah. I've  got  some  numbers  comparing countries  in  the  percentage  of household  waste  by  weight  that  is  recycled. It  actually  gives  a  bunch of  disposal  categories. Recycled,  composted,  landfilled,  incinerated with  and  without  energy  recovery  and a  few  different  flavors  of  “other” as  categories. My  personal  science  based  opinion  of these  categories  is  that in  terms  of  kudos  to  the  country, compost  is  the  best,  then  recycling. Beyond  that,  we're  talking  about various  flavors  of  bad. Landfilling  is  probably  the  least  bad, followed  by  incineration with  energy  recovery. Then  worst  of  all  is incineration  without  energy  recovery.AWhat  about  dumping  stuff  in  the  ocean?BOkay, that's  worst,  that's  worse  than  landfilling. But  that  isn't  in  these  statistics.AAre  you  going  to  talk  about why  landfilling  is  bad?BFor  the  general  environment, it's  a  good  thing  for  there  to  be  landfills. But  for  the  location where  the  landfill  is  and around  it,  you're  concentrating  waste. So  something  that  wouldn't be  toxic  if  it  was  spread over  a  much  larger  areaAOh so  we  should  litter.BFunny.  When  you  gather  it  in  one  place there  is  a  capacity for  more  toxicity  because you  get  a  greater  concentration  of  it.A And  so  incinerating  is  when  they  justBBurn.AYeah.  They  want  to  take  up  less  space. But  why  is  that bad?BBurning  garbage  does  reduce the  volume  and  weight  of  waste, but  it's  not  a  great  solution because  it  only  reduces  it  to about  15-20  percent  of  the  original  weight. And  then  you  have  that  substantially  more toxic  ash and  slag  to  deal  with.AWhat  do  they  do  with  that?BI  know  that  sometimes  they  use it  for  making  concrete, which  ash is,  without  getting too  much  into  concrete, ash  is  something  that  can  replace I  think  it's  called  clinker  in Portland  cement  which  would  otherwise  be created  by  baking  limestone to  create  calcium ash.ASo  that  does sound  like  a  type  of  recycling.BIt’s not  exactly  recycling,  but  it's a  replacement  of  mined  minerals.AAnd  I'm  sure  the  burning  process itself Breleases  garbage  like nobody's  businessA and  hurts the  ozone  layer  or whateverB hurts  the  surrounding  communities that  are  predominantly APoor?BPoor and minority  and poor and  underprivileged. So getting  back  to  my  numbers, the  recycling  number  doesn't  mean  how  much of  the  recyclable  waste  is  recycled. It's  a  percentage  of  all  waste. It  also  makes  no  accounting  of the  absolute  quantity  of waste  produced  per  household. So,  keep  that  in  mind  too.  For  the  purposes  of  evaluating a  country's  laudability I'll  combine  the  composting and  recycling  percentages.AYou're  not  a  walking  Wikipedia. You're  a  walking  footnote,  sorry. Okay.  No,  you're  sitting, honestly. BThank  you.  So minding  all  of  that, what  countries  do  you  think  do  well  with their  waste  and  which  do  you think  do  poorly? This  data  is  from  the  OECD  in  2019, so the  countries  included are:  and I'm  going  to  speed  this  up  for  comic  effect. Australia,  Austria,  Belgium,  Costa  Rica, Czech  Republic,  Denmark,  Estonia,  Finland, France,  Germany,  Greece,  Hungary, Ireland,  Iceland,  Israel,  Italy, Japan,  Latvia,  Lithuania,  Luxembourg, The  Netherlands,  Norway,  Poland, Portugal,  Slovakia, Slovenia,  South  Korea,  Spain,  Sweden, Switzerland,  Turkey, the  United  Kingdom  and  the  United  States.A I'm  going  to  say  Luxembourg  is  the best  and  the  United  States  is  the  worst.BOkay.  So I  was  actually pleasantly  surprised  to  see that  ten  of  these  countries responsibly  dealt  with  more  than  half of  their  household  waste. Slovenia  scored  the  best with  a  combined  compost and  recycling  fraction  of 71.8%.  Germany  also  impressed with  a  combined  score  of  66.7% followed  by  South  Korea, which  itself  had  the  highest  recycling  rate of  56.5%  Just  recycling.AI'm  picturing  them  receiving  their  gold, silver,  and  bronze  medals.BVery  good.AMade  of  post  consumer  recycled  material.BYes. I  will  asterisk this  by  saying  that  Germany, Belgium,  Switzerland, and  Denmark  all  reported  zero  landfill  use. Which  seems  like  clever accounting  to  me  because typical  incineration  leaves  about  15  to  20% of  the  original  weight  as  ash and slag. But  I  suppose it  is  possible  they  figured  out a  way  to  make  industrial  use  of  the  ashes and  other slag created  by  their  incinerators. The  last  general  concept before  we  get  into the  specific  materials  will  be Wishcycling  and  contamination. Do  you  recall  what  Wish  cycling  is?AYes.  It's  when you  feel  bad  about  throwing  something  away, So  you  think  it  might  fit  in  recycling. So  I'm  just  going  to  put  it  there and  feel  better  about  myself.BBingo.  Wikipedia  defines  it  as the  disposal  of  consumer  waste  in a  recycle  bin  in hopes  of  it  being  recycled, whereas  it  cannot  or is  unlikely  to  be  recycled.ASo  I  was right Babout  the  spray  cheese  can?AYeah.B I  don't  know  that.AOkay.BI  get  it. I've  done  it  and  you've  done  it  too. We  all  have,  except  for  people  who, on  principle, don't  put  anything  in  the  recycling.AYeah.  If  you're  already  a  person  who cares  enough  to  recycle  at  all, then  you're  already  prone to  wish  cycling,  I  think.BMm  hmm.  The  motivations for  wish  cycling  are  easy  to  see, but  the  consequences  are  less so. Here  you  see how  wish  cycling  feeds  into  contamination. Nearly  one  fifth  of  all  recyclables are  contaminated  with  wishcycling  which  loads  trucks  faster with  useless  material  that they  haul  around,  burdens workers  who  have  to  manually  sort out  non  recyclable  materials  at the  processing  facility,  can  damage processing  equipment,  and  can  even  cause whole  batches  of  otherwise acceptable  recyclables  to  be  thrown  away. Contamination  is,  of  course, a  bigger  subject  than merely  well  intentioned  errors. It  includes  consumer  contamination, like  not  rinsing  out  food  containers, manufacturer  contamination like  labels,  marketing, branding  and  the  use of  composite  or  difficult  to separate  materials  that  consumers don't  realize  are  unrecyclable. And  to  a  smaller  degree  process  contamination like  dissimilar  materials nesting  in  transport, and  rain  soaking paper  and  starting  to  rot  it.AHonestly,  because you  explained  this  to  me  a  while  back, I've  shifted  my  recycling  habits  and  I put  fewer  things  in  the  recycling. You  don't  like  that  though!B It's  hard  isn’t it?AYou're  the  one  who told  me  not  to  wish  cycle and  yet  you're  the  one  who  kind of  does  it  more.BI  won't  say  that  I'm  perfect.AThat's  funny. BYou  think  that's  funny?APractice  what  you  preach.BYeah,  sure  thing.  Here's  a  question  that  everyone but  the  most jaded  recycling  cynic  has  asked themselves,  what  is  recyclable? Do  you  know? APlastic,  glass,  paper, cardboard,  aluminum  cans?BWhat  do  you  think  it  depends  on?AOh,  how  pure  of  a  material  it  is I  guess?  That's  not  the  right  word, but  like  not  mixed  size if  it's  going  to  fit  through  the sorter. You  told  me  that  that  matters  earlier.BGood  memory.AHow  clean  something  is  like that  is a  question  I  always  have  because,  you  know, as  I'm  rinsing  out  the  can, I'm  thinking  about  the  water  I'm  wasting  too. Right.  Like  there's  an  offset. Whether  I  recycle  something  also  depends on  what  I  think  is a  reasonable  trade  off  of my  time  because  I'm  not  going to  peel  the  label  off  the  ketchup  bottle.B Good  points.  But  what  I  have  found  is  that the  most  comprehensive  answer  to that  question  is  that  it depends  upon  where  you  live. Even  though  that  answer  is  totally  a  cop  out.ASpoken  like  a  rhetorician, it  depends  on  the  context.BBecause  as  I've  mentioned  before, recycling  collection  is  handled  at the  local  or  county  level. So  listener, because  waste  and  recycling  handling is  not  uniform in the  US  and  I  could only  speculate  about  other  countries you  will  have  to  check  with  your  city and  or  county  government  to  know  for  sure.ABut  that's  work.B Yes.  And even  from  our  county  to the  one  literally  across the  street  with the  websites  in  the  same  format. Our  neighbor  has  information  more concise  and  organizedALike  our  literal  neighbor?BWell,  Blue  Earth  County as  opposed  to  Nicolet  County  that  we  live  in.AOh,  not  our  next  door  neighbor.BThe  county  that  is  across  the  road.AGotcha. I  was  like, that'd  be  an  interesting over the  picket  fence  conversation. So,  tell  me  about  how your  county  communicates what  materials  are  recyclable?BUh, I gotta go.AOh yeah. Let  me  show  you  this  pamphlet.BThat's  weird,  I'm  leaving? Our  county  still  has  the waste  wizard  to  look  up anything  but  having  to go  through  items  individually, what  do  you  think  that  will  do for  educated  recycling? Another  thing  to  note  about recycling  is  that some  states  actually  have  made it  illegal  to  throw  away  recyclables. These  states  are  Wisconsin, Minnesota,  Michigan,  and  North  Carolina.AI've  been  breaking  the  law  all  this  time? See,  I'm  more  of  a  bad  ass  than  you'd  think.BOh. I  think  that  that  statement  is  more applicable  to a  municipal  level, that  they  are  not  allowed to  throw  away  waste. Although  I  will  say  that  our  neighbor,  Jamie, said  when  he  was  at  the  landfill, he saw a truck a  dump  an  entire  load of  green  glass  at  the  landfill.AOh,  come  on.BWhich  is  illegal.AThink  of  all  the  effort  it  took  to sort  not  only  glass, but  green  glass  only.BExactly.  One  thing that's  not  so  bad  about glass  in  a  landfill is  that  it's  not  going  to, you  know,  like  it's  inert. It's  not  going  to  cause  chemical  trouble, but  still  maddening.  Still  a  waste. A  waste  of  waste. Some  cities  and  states  make  it mandatory  to  recycle  and will fine  businesses  for  having more  than  10%  of their  trash  being  recyclables. But  households  will  instead get  reminder  tags  put  on  their  bins so it's  not  overly  punitive  to  people, whereas  businesses  should  know  better.AFair.BAll  right.  Now  I'm  going  to make  like  a  processing  line  and split  recyclables  up  into  their  major  groups: Glass,  metals, organics,  cardboard  and  paper,  and  plastics. Perhaps  though,  I  should  zoom out  a  bit  more  and  note the  other major  components  of household  waste  that  I'm  not  considering recyclable: clothing  and  fabrics, composite  materials, electronics,  ash,  yard  waste, chemicals, construction  waste,  and  medical  waste. With  the  exception  of yard  waste,  some construction  waste, and  ash  the  concept  of recycling  doesn't  work  for these  groups  of  materials. Clothing  and  fabrics I  will  get  into  why  I  didn't include  them  in  recyclables  later. I'll  also  note  that  organics like  food  waste  and  yard  waste  can  be recycled, quote recycled  by  composting. But  since  it's  a  biological  process, I’ll mostly  set  it  aside  for  this  discussion.AAnd this is off  topic.  But  the  composting of  human  bodies  is  a  thing. If  you  care  about  things like  green  cremation, then  this  might  be  an  option  for  you.BYes.  An  option  to reduce  your  final  carbon  impact. By  specifying  that you  want  to  be  compostedAthey  put  you  in  a  tube  and  let  you  sit, and  then  what  emerges  is beautiful  dirt  that  you  can plant a garden with and  remember  your  loved  one. But  it's  not  legal  in  every  state,  true? Where  is  it  legal, Washington?BI  think. Washington,  California,  probably  Oregon. And  I  didn't  do research  on  that,  so  I'm  not  sure. Yeah,  Talk  to  your  state  legislatures, Slaters  about  it  because  that  is a  state  level  issue.ATurn  me  into  dirt. Cause I’m just a teenage dirtbag, baby.BNice. So  in  terms  of  glass,  metals, cardboard  and  paper,  and  plastic, what  is  your  intuition,  Abi? Where  is  the  good  news and  where's  the  bad  news?AI  think  you've  told  me  that metals  are  pretty  high  value.BHey,  no  cheating.ANo,  you  have  told  me  that. But I  am  looking  at  your  notes, so  I  guess  that  is  cheating. BAha.AUh,  I  think  glass  is  easy  to  sort  maybe, but  doesn't  have  a  very  usable  end  product. Plastics  is  the  worst.BWhat  about  cardboard  and  paper? Where  would  you  put  them  in the,  in  the  line  up.APretty  good.  fun  fact. Our  daughter  did  a  science  fair  project on  that  last  year.  On what  material  will  recycle or  can  be  turned  into  paper. And  she  tested  cardboard, regular  paper  and  onion skin. Oh,  dryer,  lint.B Dryer  lint.  Yep. Yeah.  That  created  more  of  like  a felt  not  so  good  for  writing  on.AMm  hm.  But  you  built  all  the  equipment. I  don't  know. That's  the  most  original  science fair  project  I've  ever  seen.BOkay,  before  we  get  into  the  why, I'll  give  you  the  highlights  of  what seems  to  me  to  be  the  actual  situation. Metals  are  some  of the  most  recyclable  materials  out  there. Paper  and  cardboard  don't recycle  super  well  out  of  a  single  stream but  they  do  okay. Glass  can  be  recycled well,  with  some  caveats. Plastics,  on  the  other  hand, are  really  what  inspired  me  to  choose recycling  as  my  topic  for  episode  number  one. They  are  the  radioactive  waste of  non  radioactive  waste. To  be  sure,  hash tag not all  plastics  as  I'll  get  into  in  the  details, but  broad strokes,  plastics  are  some  of the  worst  materials  conjured  by  humanity.A I  was  kind  of  right.  I  was  close.BOf  those  groups,  put them  in  order  of  what  you think  the  rate  of  recycling  is. By  rate  of  recycling, I  mean  the  fraction of  recyclables  that  are recycled  in  that  group.A I'm  going  to  put  plastics  at lowest  paper  at  highest,  I  don't  know.BOkay.  These  statistics  that I  have  from  the  EPA  in  2018, which  I  had  to  do  some  real  digging  to  find, are  that  68.2%  of  paper  and  cardboard, 34.1%  of  metals,  25%  of  glass, and  8.7%  of  plastic  is  recycled  in  the  US.ASo  you're  not  going  to  acknowledge  that I  nailed  it.BYou  got  it.  You got  the  best  and  worst  for  sure. So Monetary  economics aside,  the  energy  and  pollution  economics  of recycling  metals  compared  to  generating fresh  material  from  ore  is  phenomenal.A In a  bad  way.B No,  no,  no. the  value  of recycling  metals  is  phenomenal.ASo  there's  good  news?B Yes. AOkay. BThis  is  good  news. Recycling  aluminum  cans  back  into aluminum  cans  takes  only  about  5% as  much  energy  and  creates about  5%  as  much  pollution as  creating  a  can  from  raw  materials. And a  can  go  from  curbside  back  to the  grocery  store  aisle  in as  little  as  60  days.AWow.BMm  hmm. Steel takes  only  40%  as  much  energy  and  makes only  14%  of  the  air  pollution  and 24%  of  the  water  pollution  as  fresh  material. Recycling  copper  saves  85%  of the  energy. Recycling  lead  saves 65%  of  the  energy  and also  obviously  keeps lead  out  of  the  environment. I  also  saw  that  the  recycling rate  for  lead  is probably  the  very  highest of  all  materials  in  the  US. It's  like  99%  is  recycled. AGood,  but  who  needs  to  use  lead? I  have  certainly  never  handled a lead thing on purpose.BYou've  never  handled  lead, but  you've  driven  a  car. Lead  acid  batteries  are the  standard  for  vehicle  batteries at least before electric vehicles. Actually  probably  the  place  where most  lead  is  lost into  the  environment  is  sportsmanship. Hunting  and  fishing,  because sinkers  in  fishing  are  made  of  lead and lines break.  It  happens and  some  people  still  use lead  shot  for  hunting.AAnd  see,  I  had  been  led  to  believe,Boh,  I  see  what  you  did  there.AThat lead  was  largely  eradicated from  paints  and  stuff at  leastB  Yes,  from paint certainly.Athat  has  not  been  leads water  supply, unless it’s Flint,  Michigan.Bin  the  case  of  paints  and plumbing  and  all  of  those  things, there  are  still  cases  where  it  exists  because it's  historical  and  just hasn't  been  remediated  yetAThat's  just that's  just  evil,  though  Yeah. To  let  that  persist  when  it's a known  risk.BRight.  And  honestly, Plumbing  got  its  name  from  lead.AHow  so?BThe  Romans, they  made  all  of  their  pipes  from  lead. It's  why  the  atomic  symbol for  lead  is  Pb.ANo  way.BPlumbinus  was  the  Latin  term  for  lead.AInteresting.  See  you  are  a  Bentonpedia.BPlumb  line was  a  lead  weight  on  a  string so  you  know  which  way  is  down. I  should  get  back  to  my  list. Recycling  zinc  saves  60%  of  the  energy. And  all  metal  recycling  has a  massive  impact  by reducing  the  impact  of  mining, and  the  impact  of  discarded  metals leaching  into  soil  and  water. Paper  takes  60%  as  much  energy  and  creates only  27%  as  much  pollution  to recycle  compared  to  fresh  material. Cardboard  takes  76%  as  much  energy to  recycle  as  to  produce  from  new  materials. Glass  takes  70  to  95%  of the  original  energy  to  recycle  and creates  about  80%  as  much  pollution.AYou're  kind  of  getting into  data  dump  territory.BYeah,  I  know  that's  the  end  of  it.AOh. No,  we  need some  visualizations  here. BOh  boy.ASome Bar  charts,  pie charts, Band  how  is  that going  to  help  people  listening to  a  podcast AFair. Could  post  them  on TC  Talk  website  as  supplemental  materials.B I'll  think  about  that.AOr  you  could  just  highlight  the  best  and worst  instead  of  going  down  the  whole  list.BMm  hm.  So  these  numbers  are taken  from  a  study that  looks  at  the  current  process. There's  certainly  room  for  improvement, but  even  this  is  an  amazing  start. If  we  averaged  a  one  third  reduction in  energy  required  and pollution  created  for  all  material fed  into  the  economy, that's  a  huge  step  towards  reducing the  toll  we  exact  upon  the  natural  world.AThat's  really  encouraging  to hear  actually  because  I  was  afraid  you were  going  to  be  like  recycling  is an  entirely  made  up  sham.BNo. It  is  a  good  stop  gap, but  it's  not  a  perfect  solution and  it's  not  the  whole  solution.AExactly.BThere.  That's  your  TLDR right  in  the  middle  of  the  podcast, and since  we're  talking  about  material fed  into  the  economy, shifting  from  fully  sourced  from the  natural  world  to  being primarily  sourced  from  our  own  waste  stream, that's  a  much  bigger  boon  for the  sustainability  of  society.ACan  I  ask? So  mining is  a  dying  profession  in  some  cases. Can  you  see  some  people resisting  recycling  to  try  to keep  miners  in  jobs  because  the  economy?BWell,  I  didn't  do  any  research  on  mining. But Abecause  it's  the  same  thing with  oil  companies,  right?.BSo  mining  for  coal  is  something  that's  dying, yes.  Mining  for  minerals  is  not. You  see  it  as  you  look back  through  industrial  history. The  discovery  of  a  new  fad  or a new  thing  creates  a  new  mining  industry. Especially  when  the  atomic  age  started. There  were  so  many  things  that  were  just  of zero  mineralogical  interest  to all  industries  that  once we  start  talking  about the  physics  of  neutrons and  how  they  interact  with certain  materials  in  ways that  are  different  from  other  materials, I  mean,  there  was  obviously  uranium  mining, there  was  zirconium  miningAWhere,  where  does  radium  come  from?BYou  would  ask.AOnly  because  I read  the  book,  The  Radium  Girls. By,  I  want  to  say  Kate  more. It's  just  wild  to me  how  for  so  long  people  were convinced  that  radium  was not  only  not  dangerous  but  a healthyBA health  boon.  And right  now  there's  a  big  boom on  mining  for  lithium  and on  rare  earth  elements  that are  used  in  the  construction of  electric  vehicles.ASo  there  is  an  environmental  impact with  electronic  vehicle  or  electric  vehicles?BYes, the  environmental  impact  is  at  the  front  end, not continuing as it’s used.A Yes Exactly. Again, I  want  to  see  a  chart.  Like  at  what  point  does  the  electric  car make  up  for  its  front  end pollution?BWhat’s  break  even  point.AYeah.  Do  you  know  how  many  miles  driven  or?BI'm  sure  that  it  depends  on  the  model.AOkay,  not  a  cyber  truck.BThey  break  even  more.AThey  do.BSo, um, one  last  caveat  is  that  the  data  I  found here  didn't  look  very far  beyond  energy  and  pollution.  Recycling is  a  bigger  boon for  the  sustainability  of society  as  a  whole  than  it is  for  any  of these  specific  elements  of  recycling. Wikipedia  defines sustainability  as  a  social  goal for  people  to  co-exist  on Earth  over  a  long  time. So,  let's  get  into  the  details  now.AWhat! How  is  what you  shared  already  not  detailed?BOkay.  The  detailsA of  the  details.BThe  details,  yes.  The  details  of each  type  of  recyclable  material.AYou  know  what, Ben,BWhat?A I  still  don't  get  it.B You  still  don't  get  it.A I  think  I  need  to  hear  about all  the  individual  types of  materials  that  can  be  recycled.BYes,  some  details. We'll  start  with  metals. Metals  have  been  recycled  almost since  they  were  first  refined  from  raw  ore, going  back  about  10,000  years. Because  all  mining  in those  times  was  powered  by  human  muscle, with  some  of  the  heavier  lifting assisted  by  beasts  of  burden, and refining  performed  with  wood-fired  heat that  was  similarly  procured  by  muscle  power, the  preciousness  of  every  scrap  of metal  was  not  lost  on  early  metal  users. Since  the  process  of  recycling  fit into  a  late  step  of  the  process  of  refining, it  was  a  simple  matter  to toss  the  little  bits  removed  by shaping  and  breakage  back  in  to  reforge  them. Little  has  changed  since  then in  the  recyclability  of  metals, only  that  our  more  sophisticated manufacturing creates alloys that can  complicate  the  recovery  of metals  from  discarded  items. I  suppose  you  could  say  that recycling  has  had  its  standards  upped with  modern  metallurgy  being  a  bit more  picky  than  your  typical medieval  blacksmith. Along  those  lines modern  metals recycling has  some  contamination, challenges  that  weren't present  in  earlier  times. Container  residue,  container coatings and labels  and  paint  come  to  mind. All  told,  though,  the  melting  process will  handle  much  of  this  pretty  adeptly. It  will  all  turn  into some  combination  of  fumes  and  slag.AWhat  is  slag?BIt's  a  glass  like  substance, so, ash is  when  you  have  a  fire. Ash  is  something  that  flies  away. It's  called  fly  ash. Burning  residues  or  unburnable  residues that  just  clump  together  are  called  slag.AIs slag  the  thing  that  then  gets reforged  or  is  it  like  a  byproduct?BIt's  a  byproduct, it's  typically  viewed  as  waste  product.AOkay.  So it  separates out  from  the  metal  somehow,BRight. It  separates  out  from  the  metal, typically in,  typically  gets  caught in  a  molten  metal  filter,ASo  I  don't  need  to  rinse  my  cans  that  much.BIt's  not  that  crucial.  Surprise, cans.  Metal  cans  not  as  important?AI'm  going  to  go  back  to  recycling  more  now.BGreat,  I  mean, you  do  want  to  rinse  metal  cans  so  that they're  not  like  oozing  on  other  things  and contaminating  them  because not  everything  is as,  you  know.AAh. That  makes  sense.BYou  don't  want  to  put something icky  in  there  because  first  of  all, it'll  start  to  smell, it’ll gum  up  other  things.  But  it won't  affect  the  recyclability of  the  metal.ARight but  if  your  black  bean  liquid oozes  onto  the  paper, it  will  affect the  recyclability  of  the  paper.BYeah, probably. So  one  other  pleasant  form of  contamination  present  in all  steel  is  mild  radioactivity. Because  steel  is  so  often  recycled, a  lot  of  it  that  was  exposed to  atomic  tests or radioactive  material  processing  was recycled  before  these effects  were  fully  understood. This  doesn't  mean  that  steel now  is  dangerous  radiologically. But  for  scientific  instruments  that  require high  purity  steel  that won't  interfere  with  radiation  readings, like  space  program  stuff, they  have  to  source  their  steel  from pre  atomic  sources  like sunken  World  War  One  ships.ACool. Huh.BYeah. Talk  about  turning  swords  into ploughshares.AThat  must  be  expensive.BWell,  I  imagine  it  isn't.AWhat do  you  send  divers  down  or  do you  drag  the  ship  up?BOh  God,  could  you  imagine  trying to  lift  a  boat  that's  had, you  know,  marine  life incorporating  itself  for  years?AYeah, fair.BI  think  it's  typically  gun  barrels that  are  so  thick that  it's  easy  to  get a  salvageable  amount  of  metal  out  of  a  chunk.  Yeah.  They'll  have  like underwater  welder  type  people go  down,  cut  a  chunk  off. Typically,  it's  the  thing  that  is you know  watched  over  by  a  government of  whoever  has  the  rights because  it's  a  special  kind  of  steel. No  steel  foundries  operate  with exclusively  virgin  ore, so that's always  contaminated  in  that  way. Anyway,  paper  and  cardboard, as  you'll  remember  from  a  few  minutes  ago, take  less  energy  to  produce  and  create less  pollution  than  producing them  from  raw  materials. Here,  however,  we  start  to  run into  more  impacts  from  contamination. What  do  you  think  might  contaminate the  paper  and  cardboard  recycling  streams?ABlack  bean  liquid.BYes,  black  bean  liquid. We've  touched  on  that.ADid  you  know  that  chickpea  liquid has  its  own  name?BAquafaba.AYou knew!BI  actually  saw  it gosh, yesterday,  something  I  was  reading.AIt  can  be a  vegan  form  of BEgg AIn  a  cocktail.BYeah.AWhat  else  would BI  think  nutritionally, it  actually  functions  like egg  too.AWeird.  What  else  would  contaminate, if  it  gets  wet I  would  guess.  Colors  maybe. Cereal  boxes  have like  that  kind  of  sheen.BYeah,  the  printing. Coatings.AThat's  all  I  can  think  of.BYeah,  that's  a  pretty  good  list. Ink  used  to  be  largely synthetic  but  now  is almost  entirely  plant  based. So while  it  may  literally  muddy  the  process, at  least  dealing  with  it  is  not  wholly  toxic. More  difficulties  arise  from the  variety  included  in the  spectrum  that  ranges from  newspaper  to  heavy  duty  cardboard. I  want  to  take  a  brief  rabbit  hole to  read  from  our  county’s  web  page, on  what  paper  products can  and  cannot  be  recycled. This  will  conflict  with what  I  have  said  or  will  say but  keep  in  mind  that  this  is  the  guidance given  by  the  collection  service, not  the  recycling  plant operator,  which  are  different. They  will  accept books both  paper  back  and  hard  cover so  long  as  there  are  only  a few  hard  cover  at  a  time. Brown  paper  bags,  cartons,  catalogs, corrugated  cardboard,  envelopes  including manila  and  those  with  cellophane  windows,AWhich  we  just  recently  learned.BYes. Junk  mail,  magazines, newspapers  and  glossy  inserts,  office  paper, paper  board,  phone  books, pop  boxes,  and  post it  notes. They  do  not  accept  pizza  boxes, dark  colored  paper  such  as black  malfunction  from  a  copier, egg  cartons,  paper  tubes,  shredded  paper, plastic  lined  envelopes  different  from just  the  windows,  tissue  paper, and  release  paper  from  stickers.AOkay, so  being  a  discard  czar  in  my  own  right. I  have the  lovely  task  of sorting  through  our  kids’  artwork.BOh  yeah.ABecause  we  cannot  keep  it  all. And  so  I  discard  much  of  it  on  the  down  low. But  if  there's  paint or  heavy  amounts  of crayon  on  it  or  something, I  always  wonder  like, is  that  going  to  gum up  the  process?  Do  you  happen  to  know?BMy  guess  is  that  paint  would be,  you  can't  really have  too  much  paint  on  it before  it's  a  problem. Crayon  I  am  less  sure  about  but it  seems  like  it  would  have  a similar,  you  don't want  much  on  there  if you're  going  to  recycle  it. So  there.  That's  not  too  much  to  keep in  mind  when  you're  deciding which  bin  to  throw  a  thing  in, is  it?AThat  helps.BThe  less  the  material  looks  and  feels  like the  cheap  brown  paper  towels  you  find  in public  restrooms, the  more  likely  it  is  to  require more  chemical  processing  or coating  to  become  what  it  is. Some  of  the  processing  chemicals may  linger  in  the  paper  until recycling, but  paper  that  is  coated  in  wax or  plastic  is  awfully  hard  to separate  into  clean  paper  fibers. Also,  as  noted  by  the  county's  website, glue  in  paper  tubes makes  them  not  recyclable.AOh,  that's  why.BThough  they  are  compostable.AOkay.  Actually,  that  helps with  the  art  projects  too.BMm  hm.AThe  glues.  Also,  I'm  not  a  monster. I  save  out  the  best  ones and  put  them  in  a  three  ring  binder with  those  clear  plastic  sheets. Proceed.BStaples  also  are  present  in  papers  and heavy  duty  boxes  which  dull the  chopping  blades  used to  break  down  the  paper. This  doesn't  disqualify things  from  being  recyclable because  obviously  that  would cut  out  most  office  paper. It's  a  known  thing, they  have  a  way  to  deal  with  it, but  it  is  a  contaminant. An  important  note  to  take  into consideration  is  that  contact with  food  will  nearly always  contaminate paper  or  cardboard  with  grease. Grease  contamination makes  paper  unrecyclable, but  it  is  still  compostable. Boxes  that  go  in  the  freezer though  are  almost  all coated  to  keep  them  from  getting soggy  with  condensation  when they  come  out  of  the  freezer. So they  can't  be  composted, but  as  long  as  they  don't  get  greasy, they  can  go  in  the  recycling.AHm.BBut, paper  can't  be  recycled  indefinitely. Whomp whomp. The  recycling  process  shortens the  fibers  of  the  material  so  that  paper  can only  be  recycled  five  to  seven times  before  it  must be  down cycled  or  composted. So even  with  maximum adoption  of  paper  recycling, pulp  forests  would  still  occupy around  20%  of  the  land  area  that  they  would with  none  in  place, given  the  same  levels  of  consumption. Glass,  however,  has  the  ability  to  be recycled  indefinitely  without degradation  like  metals, because  it  is  a  mineral  and  basically  inert. When  you're  asked  to  sort  your  glass, it  will  be  based  on  color. Clear,  blue,  green,  and  brown, keeping  in  mind  that  the  point  of sorting  is  to  keep from  color  contaminating  the  product.AIf people  didn't  care  what  color their  jars  came  in, if  it  was  like  a  mix  of  green and  brown  or  whatever, it  might  not  be  pretty. But  it  wouldn't  be  the  worst.BNo,  that's  a  consumer  preference  question.AOr  more  likely  probably  the  company.BYeah.  Manufacturer  preference comes  before  consumer  preference. It  could  look  very  cool  depending  on how  thoroughly  mixed  the  colors are  in  the  process.AOoh like tie-dyed.BIt could. I mean If  you  have  things  mixed very  well  in  the  melt  pot, then,  I  mean,  it's  just  going  to  come  out  on  average  color.AIt  may  make your  pickles  look  less  appetizing  though, so I  get  why they  do  want  to  sort  by  color.BMm  hm.  And  in  some  cases things  are  stored  in brown  glass  because   they  need  to be  protected  from  UV  light, which  is  the  case  for  some  medicines and  foods.ASkin  care  products. BSkin  care  products.  Sure. Not  all  glass  will  recycle  though. Auto,  window,  and  cookware  glass  do not  recycle  due  to  them  having a  different  chemistry  from  regular  glass. You  may  be  wondering  now, why  did  I  rate  glass  below  paper  given the  many  limitations  on  paper  recycling and  the  theoretically endless  recyclability  of  glass?ANo,  I  wasn't  wondering  that.BAre  you  now?AI  still  don't  get  it.BYou  still  don't  get  it.  Well,  Abi, what  do  you  think  my  reasoning  is?ABecause  paper, there's  so  much more  maybe  than  glass?BThat's  an  answer.  My  first  reason  is  weight. A  12  ounce  glass  bottle  weighs  190  grams. A  12  ounce  aluminum  can  weighs  14.AWhat's  a  gram?BGram?AI'm  an  American.BAh,  yes.  Metric  illiterate. Um, ANo,  it's  okay. I  do  have  a  sense  of  what  a  gram  is. I  was  just  interjecting  for  no  good  reason.BOh,  good.  What  fun. The  second  reason  is  that  glass  is  dangerous. It  is  common  for  glass  containers  to break  when  moved  around in  the  recycling  process, creating  sharp  hazards  in  an  array  of  sizes.ABut  but but paper  cuts.BOkay.  Sure.ANot  equivalent.BIt's  part  of why  sanitation  workers  have one  of  the  most  dangerous  jobs. Substantially  more  dangerous  than police  officers  or even  pizza  delivery  drivers. The  last  reason, AProbably  not as  dangerous  as  the  person  who  dives  to  cut  off a  chunk  of  a  World  War  One  battleship.BYeah,  yeah,  probably  taking an  acetylene  torch  underwater  in  scuba. That's  probably  got  a  fair  amount of  hazards  associated  with  it. The  last  reason I  lowered  glass  below  paper  is  that recycling  glass  is  a  bad  use  for  it. Glass  should  be  reused.AOh.BYou  do  it  in your  home  when  you  wash  glass  cups instead  of  throwing  them  away. We  did  it  for  many  decades  in  the  US  with glass  bottles  for  milk and  carbonated  beverages. And  we  only  stopped  because  beverage  makers didn't  like  the  cost  of  responsibility. I'll  touch  on  reuse  a  little  later. Okay,  plastics, like  some  of the  other  subjects  I've  touched  on, plastics  and microplastics  could each  have  been  given  their  own  episode. but  this  is  the  moment  that  I at  least  have  been  waiting for. Before  I  light up  the  flame  thrower,  so  to  speak, Abi,  why  do  you  think I  use  such  strong  rhetoric in  describing  plastic? AIt’s  used  to  make  cheap  plastic  junk  that our  kids  bring  home  in  their  birthday  party goody  bags,BMaking  it  very  personal, but yes.AThat’s all I got.BWell,  there  are  many,  many reasons  to  side  eye the  recycling  of  plastics. The  first  is  right  at  its  beginning,  oil. I  know  that  there  are many  efforts  underway  to create  plastics  from  non  petroleum  sources. But  good-intentioned  as  they  may  be, they're  largely  window  dressing. More  than  99%  of  plastic  is  oil  based.A Why  did  I  not  know  that?BI  don't know. Is  that  like  common  knowledge?ABecause  in  my  mind,  plastic  is just  made  of  plastic,  you  know. But  of  course  it  comes  from  somewhere.BYeah,  a plastic mine,  right? Plastic  being made  out  of  oil  is  how  oil  industry  is trying  to  stay  alive  with the  growing  opposition  of environmental  groups  and  use  for energy  starting  to smell  bad  now  so  to  speak.AWow.BPlastic  production  has been  how  they  keep producing  more  oil  without it  just  completely  glutting  the  market.ANow  I  know.BNow you know. The  next  problem  is  the  next  step. Manufacturing. Turning  oil  into plastics  releases  about  half of  the  carbon  in  the  oil. Not  to  mention  the  transportation  fuel to  get  it  from  well  to  factory along  with  a  tremendous  slew of  combustion  byproducts, volatile  organic  compounds, and  persistent  organic  pollutants. Not  to  mention  the  trace  contaminants of  oil  like  sulphur, mercury,  lead,  arsenic,  et  cetera. After  being  processed  into  plastic  pellets, it's  shipped  again  to a  factory  where  it's molded  into  a  useful  shape. Depending  on  the  end  use, it  might  get  shipped  a  few  more  times being  assembled  into  larger and  larger  sub  assemblies before  the  product  is  complete, likely  enduring  at  least  a  single  cleaning per  stop  using  yet  more  chemicals. Then  it  will  be  packaged,  palletized, shipped  to  a  distribution  center,  stored, inventoried,  shipped  to  a  big  box  store, purchased  and  driven  to  a  person's  home. If  that  sounds  exhausting, that's  because  it  is. Pun  intended.AWhat  percentage  of oil  companies  business  comes  from  plastics?BThat  is  a  great  question that  I  do  not  know  the  answer  to.A Then  you  can  cut  my  question  out.BI  know  that  one  of  the  things  that it  depends  upon  is the  mix  of  compounds  from  a  particular well. Some wells make  crude  oil, that's  really  good  for  turning  into  fuel. Some make crude  oil  that’s kind of  altogether garbage. Some  make  stuff  that's, that  has  a  lot  of  aromatic  rings and so it's  good  for  petrochemical  industry  where they  turn  it  into  plastics  or  metals.AAromatic?BAromatic rings? You've  probably  seen  it. An  aromatic  ring  is a  double  bonded  ring  of  six  carbon  atoms.AOh,  so  just  something  that  smells  nice.BNo,  I mean typically  it's a  ring  like  that  that  makes  it  smell  nice. Plants  make  them  too  in  their  own  way.ASo  it's  the  same  kind  of  aromatic.BIt  is, yeah.AWeird.BIf you're  looking  at  like the  little  chemical  stick figure  of  a  molecule, an  aromatic  ring  is a  hexagon  with  a  circle  inside  it.AThanks  for  the  chemistry  lesson.BYeah,  no  problem. So, I  talked  about the  process  of  oil  turning  into  plastic, turning  into  a  product  that's in  the  home. So that  litany  of  moving shit  around is  a  function  of  globalized  trade. It  certainly  is  not  limited  to  plastic.  What's  so  funny?AI thought  you  were  dropping  in  an  F  bomb.BIt's  certainly  not  limited  to  plastic, but  all  of  the  incredible positive  attributes  of plastic  as  a  material  increase  the likelihood  that  a  unit  of plastic  will  be  subjected  to  this runaround  compared to  heavier  materials  that  would make  more  financial  sense  to produce  nearer  the  location  of  use. But  all  of  that  activity  was  involved  in  just producing  the  plastic  and putting  it  in  the  home  of  some  poor  soul who  will  use  it  for some  amount  of  time  then  have  to figure  out  how  to  get  rid  of  it. Now,  finally,  we  can discuss  recycling  the  plastic. So Abi,  of  all  the  materials  we've  discussed, plastic  is  the  most recent  and  also  the  only  one  for which  we  have  a  pretty  good  estimate of  humanity's  lifetime  production. Since  we  do,  there  are  also numbers  for  final  disposition on  all  of  this  plastic. Out  of  all  the  plastic  ever  produced, you  get  to  guess  the  percentage going  to  each  of  these  categories. Recycled,  incinerated, and  landfill  or  environment.AOoh. Since  you're  really  mad  at  plastic, I'm  going  to  guess  5%  recycled. I  couldn't  venture a  guess  on  the  other  categories.BWell,  you  have  95%  left.AOkay.  94%  landfill,  1%  incinerated.BAll  right. Sure.  Talking specifically  about  plastics. I  actually  prefer  incineration to  landfill  in  cases where  the  incinerator  and its  exhaust  are  well  regulated. That's  because  an  industrial  process has  the  potential  to chemically  break  down  plastic  into components  that  the  environment  can  use again.  Potentially does  a  lot  of  work  in  that  sentence, because  the  plastic  has  to be  free  of  toxic  elements like  halogens,  chlorine  and  fluorine. For  this  to  be  remotely  possible, the  incineration  process  has  to  reach  and maintain  temperatures  around  2000  Fahrenheit, and the  exhaust  needs  to  be scrubbed  of  hazardous  things  like ash  and  toxic  compounds like  nitrous  oxides  and  sulfur  compounds. But  to  date,  humanity  has  produced roughly  11  billion  tons  of  plastic, which  is  more  than the  mass  of  animal  and  plant  life  on  Earth currently.AWild.BOf  this,  9%  has been  recycledASo better  than  my  guess.BBetter  than  your  guess.  12%  has  been incinerated  and  79%  was either  landfilled  or escaped  to  the  environment.AHm.BThe  numbers  for  what  was  produced  in 2015  are  a  little  better  than  that for  the  full  history  of  plastic, 19.5%  recycled, 25.5%  incinerated, and a  mere  55%  landfilled or  lost  to  the  environment.A What year were  your  first  stats  from?BThe  first  stats  were  from the  entire  history  of  plastic  production.AAh, Okay.BSo that  is  global  numbers. But  how  do  you  think  the  US  stacks up  to  it?ABadly?BIt's  a  good  safe  answer  to  go  with. Only  8%  recycled, 14%  incinerated,  and  78% landfilled  or  lost  to  the environment  as  of  2010. You  may  recall  that  earlier  I said  that  by  2018, recycling  rates  of  plastics  had risen  to  an  equally  uninspiring 8.7%.AIs  there  no  innovation in  the  processing  technologies though,  that  could  make  them less crappy?BMost  of  the  innovation is in  labor  replacement,  automation.AOf  course. BSo no  process  of sorting  plastic  is  fully  automated. Like  there  still  has  to  be  a  person at  least  involved  in taking  care  of  the  weird  stuff. *We do the weird stuff.* A  big  part  of  why the  recycling  rate  is not  dramatically  improved  is  economics. Most plastic  is  commodity  level cheap  as  it  gets  material, takes  more  money  to  recycle plastic  than  it  does  to just  create  it  out  of  new  oil. It's  externalizing  the  costs of  disposalAYes.BAnd  so  you're  not  paying  the  full  costs to  deal  with  your  actions.  The  environment always  gets  shit  on when  you  externalize  things. That's  just  how  it  goes.AAnd  by  extension,  people who  need  to  live  in  an  environment, but  hey,  they  didn't  have  to  spend  as  much  on that  cheap  tacky  plastic  thing.BThat  won't  last  long. So  I  haven't  even  mentioned  yet the  almost  obscene  diversity  of  types  of plastics. I'll  start  with  the  RICs, or  Resin  Identification  Codes. These  are  the  numbers you  see  in  the  middle  of the  recycle  symbol  on  plastic  containers. Number  one  is  PET or  polyethylene  teraphthylte. Say  that  ten  times  fast.ANo,  thank  you.BWhich  is  typical  in  beverage  bottles and  packaging  because  of its  transparency  and  strength. Number  two  is  HDPE, or  high  density  polyethylene, which  is  used  in  water  pipes, milk  jugs,  and  shopping  bags. Number  three  is  PVC,  or  polyvinyl  chloride, which  is  used  in  sewer  pipes, inflatables,  records, and  electrical  insulation. Number  four  is  LDPE, or  low  density  polyethylene, which  is  used  in  freezer  bags  and  squeeze bottles  because  of  how  flexible  it  is. Number  five  is  PP  or  polypropylene. Insert  giggle  here. *Did you know there’s PP on your smock? Disgusting. P stands for Pablo Picasso.* Which is  used  in  reusable  containers you know  like  food  storage  containers? He  was  iron  and  ironically, disposable  cups  and  plates  as  well  as yogurt  cups  and  other  dairy tubs  and  bottle  caps. Number  six  is PS  or  polystyrene. It's  used  in  styrofoam, plastic  clamshells and  other  high  seal  packaging. By  high  seal, I mean the  stuff where  it's  thermally  sealed, so  you  actually  have  to  cut the  plastic  to  get the  thing  out  of  the  packaging. Number  seven  is  other. The  plastic  industry  got  bored  after completing  six  problems on  their  homework  assignment. Typically  though,  number  seven  is  either  ABS, that's  acrylonitrile utadine styrene,  or  polycarbonate. ABS  is  found  in Legos  and  plastic  car  interiors. Polycarbonate  is  found  in  bulletproof  glass, eyeglass  lenses  and  CDs due  to  its  optical  clarity. All  those  numbers  on  bottles and  such  are  essentially  not useful  in  US  recycling  centers because  it's  almost  entirely  automated  here.ABut  in  other  parts  of  the  world, they  do  make  use  of  those  distinctions?BYes,  other  places,  put  more  of  the sorting burden  on  consumers.AGotchaBAnd  that's  really  what  it's  used  for. But  wait,  there's  more. Along  with  these  plastics, there  are  innumerable  additives  which  are other  polymers  that  are  included  in  most of  the  ones  I  just  mentioned, to  modify  them  for  strength, flexibility,  appearance,  and  processing. No  plastic  at  all  is  sold  pure, even  by  the  primary  producers  like Dow  Chemical  and  3M.  They  all  have at  least  a  stabilizer  to  protect  the  polymer against  thermal  degradation  in  processing, because  you  obviously  have  to  melt the  pellets  to  mold  it  into  the  thing. Many  have  several  other  additives. And PVC  can  be  up  to  80%  additives  by volume,  which  seems  excessive. These  additives  can  leach  out  over  time, which  is  one  of  the  things  making plastic  pollution  so  problematic. You  look  like  you  could  use a  little  bit  of  bright  side.AGo  for  it.BOkay,  about  half  of the plastic  produced  is  either  number  two, number  four,  or  number  five, which  makes  up  a  group  called  polyolefins. Polyolefins  means  structurally,  that  is just  straight  chains  or straight  chains  with  straight  branches. No  goofy  shit  going  on  here.ANo  aromatic  rings.BNo  aromatic  rings.AAre  there  any  benzene  rings?BThose  are  in  fact  the  same  thing.ANo  way.B Yeah.ACool.BNow you  know. That,  the  fact  that  it's  all straight  makes  these  plastics the  most  inert  or  least reactive. That’s  half  of  them, half  of  plastic  not  that  bad.AGood.BThey  don't  interfere  with any  biochemical  processes  and they  aren't  toxic, mutagenic,  or  carcinogenic. The  others  though,  are  some  sketchy  bastards. Teraphthylates,  which  is  what makes  up  the  plastic  water  bottle are  known  to interfere  with  endocrine  systems. PVC  sheds chlorinated  trash  molecules like  they're  going  out  of  style. Styrene  is  a  uniquely  busybody  molecule that  is  toxic,  mutagenic,  and  carcinogenic.AWhat  does  mutagenic  mean?BMutagenic  means  it  will  change  DNA.AWhoa. I thought  the  covid  vaccines were  supposed  to  do  that.BNo,  they're  not  that  good. I  guess  that the  microplastics  inside  of the  vaccines  could  potentially  do  that. ButAI  was  being  facetious  by  the  way.BI  know.  I  know.AJust  make  sure  everyone  knows.BThank  you  for  clarifying  that  for  listeners.AThe  covid  vaccine  is  safe  and  effective.BMm  hmm.  Styrene  is  also  flammable. I  mean  a  lot  of  organic  compounds  are but styrene  will  polymerize  with almost  only  a  suggestion.  Polymerizing  releases  heat and so given  the  right  conditions Styrene  can  actually  cause its  own  explosion  through  self  heating. From  self  polymerization.A Love that.BYeah. Polycarbonate  is  made  from BPA  or  bisphenol  A, whose  effects  are  so  troubling  that reusable  water  bottles  and baby  bottles  are  all  identified as  not  having  that  shit  in it  where  it  was  commonplace  20  years  ago.AIs  this  like  the  new  lead?BThis  is  the  old  lead. BPA,  around  2010  is when  bisphenol  A  was  the  new  scare.ABut  it's legitimately  scary.BIt  is,  yes.  Because  it  can  interfere  with, like  I  forget  what  endocrine, or you know it  has  similarities  to  biochemicals, and so they  can  interfere  with  those chemical  pathways in  the  body.AAnd is this  proven. This  is  not  just  theoretical?B Oh  yes,  it's  understood.AHuh.  Why  haven't  I  heard  about  it  before? Is  this  the  same  as  those PFAS that  you  talk  about?BDifferent.AOh. BYeah.  As  I  actually didn't  include  anything  about  as  in here  or  polyfluorinated AAss.BAss.  I  should've  looked that  up  or  put  a  little  something  in  there. But  they're  also  known  as  Forever  Chemicals because  the  carbon  fluorine  bond  is not  broken  down  by  nature  and it  will not ever  be  biodegraded. It  will  stay  there  forever. Unlike  regular  plastics  that just will  be  there  for  longer  than  we  will. But  yeah,  BPA  is,  you  know, that  was  a  big  scare  12,  13  years  ago. It  was  a  big  like  we  got  to  get  this  out  of our  baby  bottles  now.  And  they  did. And  it's  good  that  they  did. I  think  you  have  a  pretty  good  idea  now  of how  diverse  plastics  are.  Sorting  plastics  can  be  done  automatically, but  how  much  variation do  you  think  manufacturers want  in  their  recyclate  source  material?ANot  much.BRight. They  want  consistency  like  they  get  from virgin  material.  That  is a  batch  of  very  consistent  stuff.AMm  hmm.BNo  difference  from  pellet  to  pellet.AI  can  see  that  being  a  safety  thing  too.BYeah,  definitely, Alike  depending on  the  product  and  what  it needs  to  be  able  to  do.  They  need  reliability. Are  there  other  things  that  could  be  made with  mixed  up  plastics  though?BSo it  is  possible  to make  makes  plastic  things out  of  mixed  sources. Typically,  there  you  get  into  low, low  value kinds of  materials. I know that they  call  it  composite  lumber, which  is  really  just  made  from  like plastic  film  recycling  and some  sawdust  that's  available at  your  home  improvement  stores. It  tends  to  sag  over  time  though, which  is  kind of crappy  for  decking  material. So  you  get into  situations  where  you  need  to over  engineer,  build  it  with  lots of  factor  of  safety  because  you  don't know  what  kind of garbage  is  going  to  be  in  there, which  for  certain  cases  is  just  fine. Like  I've  seen  palettes  that  are  made  out  of recycled  plastic  and  they're lighter  than  wood  ones, they're  also  still  made  out  of  plastic. It's  a  good  place  to  make use  of  this  material, but  it's  not  as  strong  as  wood. You  shouldn't  just  throw  it  away. It  has  its  own  challenges, to  shorten  the  story that  I  was  going  to  make  too  long already. Manufacturers  don't  want  any  variation if  they  can  help  it  in  their  source  material. So how  many  separation  bins do  you  think  would  be required  at  a  sorting  facility for  that  level  of  purity?ASounds  like  seven, right?BWell,  keep  in  mind that  not  everything  that  has  a  one  on it  is  the  same  mixture  of  plastic. If  you  didn't  want  to  have the  variation  of  like  a  shampoo  bottle versus  a  water  bottle versus  another  bottle with  different  fillers  and different  stabilizers  and  plasticizers  and all  the  stuff  that  gets added  in  for  making  bottles. You'd  have  to  have  a  lot more  places  to  sort  them  out  if you  want  to  have  tight control  on  what's  in  the  bin.ASo  you  don't  have  a  number, but  theoretically  as  many different  types  of  plastic  as  there  are, which  is  probably  hundreds BI'd  say  at  least. And  mixtures  of  plastics. That's  the  thing  that  really  getsAEvery  conceivable  permutation. Yeah,  I  see  the  problem.BBecause  none  of  them  are  made  pure, none  of  them  are  sold  pure. So in  order  to theoretically  have  a  recycling  plant that  makes  that  kind  of  purity, they  would  have  to  have  an  infinite  amount  of space  to  sort  these  bottles  into.  So that's  one  reason  that plastic  recycling  is  challenging. Certain  places  are just  more  conscientious  than the  United  States  in  terms  of  setting  policy that drives,  that  mandates  recycling. Other  places  are  driven  more  by  need, like  in  Southeast  Asia. India  has  a  much  higher  rate  of  recycling water  bottles  than  we  do  because  they  gotta. It's  a  way  for  people  to  make  money. Where  here  you  couldn't  make  enough  money to  have  it  be  your  income  stream.ACouldn't  regulations  also  happen at  the  level  of  the  company and  the  amount  of waste  that  they're  allowed  to  produce?BSo governments  put those  regulations  on  companies. Putting  regulations  on  companies  is  something that  Europe  is  very  comfortable  doing. They  do  it  pretty  well.AUnited  States, nuh uh.B The  United  States.  There  are many  reasons  that  that  falls  flat.ABecause mah  freedoms.BMah  freedoms  and mah lobbyists  and  so  on  and  so  forth. So talking  about  recycling,  this  isn't  like people  where  diversity leads  to  greater  strength. Here,  diversity  leads  to greater  complexity  and  complication. It's  also  not  at  all  helpful that  chemical  manufacturers  who  make the  plastic  pellets  that  are molded  into  all  of  the  junk  of modern  life  have  proprietary  ingredients. So even  for  a  commodity  plastic,  it  isn't  the same  from  one  manufacturer  to the  next. If  you  need  more  points to  understand  my  bias  against  plastic, which  I'm  sure  you  don't,  look  to microplastics.  Because  plastics  are not  generated  by  nature, biological  processes don't  break  them  down  chemically with  a  few  exceptions. I  know  that  there  is  a  flesh eating  bacteria  that  makes  an  enzyme  that breaks  down  some  plastics.  Unlikely  allies, huh?AI  mean,  if  you  like  multiply the  population  of  flesh  eating bacteria  to  take  care  of  the  plastic, you  might  be  introducing  another  risk.BUnintended  consequences, perhaps?ASci  fi  writers, take  note. BMm  hmm. In  this,  that they're  not  broken  down  chemically  by  nature they  are  like  rocks. And like  rocks,  plastics  erode  mechanically, creating  plastic  sediment which  is  carried  around  by wind  and  water  as well  as  animals  on  the  move. This  has  begun  the  process of  creating  plastic  sandstone.ACounterpoint,  so we  don't  want plastics  to disintegrate  because they  release  microplastics. Then  wouldn't  forever  chemicals be  better  because  they  don't  disintegrate?BNo.  So  this  disintegrating is  referring  to  physical  size. Like  they don't  chemically  break  down. Like  that's  the  1,000  years. Mechanically  breaking  down into  smaller  pieces. They  do,AThat's  the  problem.BYes,  that's  what  creates  microplastics. So  they're  not  necessarily  chemically breaking  down,  but  mechanically. And  that's  where  the  danger  is. But  for  some  real  ominous  feel, we'll  talk  about  other  places these  microplastics  have  been  found. Wikipedia  defines  microplastics  as fragments  of  any  type  of  plastic, less  than  5  millimeters  in  length. For  the  metric  illiterate, that's  about  3/16  of  an  inch.ASee,  there  you  got  my   conversion.  BNanoplastics, which  is  a  subset  of  microplastics, are  particles  less  than  one  micron  in  length, which  is  a  1000th  of  a  millimeter. Small  particles  of  plastics can  be  taken  into  animal  bodies  through breathing or  eating. Because  plastics  are  not  a  natural  hazard, evolution  has  not  prepared body  systems  to  identify and  deal  with  these  materials. As  such,  microplastics  tend  to  bioaccumulate, meaning  that  they  concentrate as  you  climb  the  food  chain. Another  consequence  of  the novelty  of  plastics interacting  with  live  tissue of  pretty  much  any  kind  of  life, is  that  the  short  term  and long  term  effects  are almost  entirely  unknown. The  diversity  of  plastics makes  the  challenge  of  studying these  effects  on  the  vast  array of  life  all  the  more  difficult. Where  have  these  microplastics  been  found? They've  been  identified  by  one  study  as being  present  in  all  17  arteries, human  arteries  that  were  tested meaning  that  they  may  be  contributing to  clogging  blood  vessels. They've  been  found  at  the  peak  of Mount  Everest  and  in the  deepest  ocean  trenches. Microplastics  have  been found  in  human  blood, breast  milk,  and  feces. In  a  sampling  of  62  human  placentas, all  had  detectable  microplastics.ASo they're  part  of  us  no  matter  what.B Right  now. Yeah.  This  particular  finding troubled  the  researchers, because  placentas  only  grow  for  eight  months, meaning  that  other  organs  have much  more  time  for accumulating  these  particles. The  biggest  contributors  to microplastic  pollution are  textiles  like  clothing, tigers, naughty  tigers,  tires, and  city  dust.  City  dust here  is  the  result  of  weathering,  abrasion, and  detergents  in  a  number  of contexts  on  synthetic  products. Some  products,  however, are  actually  formulated  with microplastics AOn  purpose. BOn  purpose. Okay, you  let  him  in,  come  on  in  or  out, come  in,  or  leave  us  alone. An example is cosmetics, where micro beads or micro-exfoliates are microplastics  engineered  to  be  used in  cosmetics  and  cleaning  products. There we go. Fig has  entered  the  chat. Many  companies  have  stopped the  use  of  micro  beads, but  have  shifted  to using  metallized  plastic  glitter for  the  same  purposes which  is  a  crafty  way  of  doing  something worse  because  it  wasn't  specifically  listed.ALoophole.BYes,  it's  a  loophole. So one  of  the  weaknesses  that plastics  share  with  paper is  that  they  suffer  from  degradation in  the  recycling  process. This  is  due  to  physical  similarities. Paper  is  made  of  fibers  and molecules  of  polymer  are quite  long  like  fibers. I  don't  think  that  plastics degrade  quite  as  quickly  as  paper  does, because  paper  is  entirely broken  down  through  mechanical  separation, which  breaks  the  fiber  length, where  plastics  need  to be  broken  down  mechanically but  melting  is  where the  real  process  happens  for  plastics. Melting  also  contributes some  degradation  to  the  end  product, which  is  why  many  scientists have  looked  for  what's called  a  cradle  to  cradle  recycling  process that  use  chemistry  to  effectively  unzip  the  long  plastic  molecules  into  the  components  used  to  create  them. There  are  not  currently  any  such  processes in  wide  usage, but  one  of  the  interesting  concepts I've  encountered  is thermally  decomposing plastics  into  pyrolysis  oil, which  could  be  run back  through  a  modified  oil  refinery to  remake  plastic. The  most  interesting  part of  this  is  that  it  would accept  a  pretty  wide  range  of  plastics. There  were  a  few  things  that  I talked  about  earlier  that  I  said, I'll  get  to  that  later about,  well,  it's  later. First,  clothings  and  fabric. I  didn't  include  them  in  recycling, even  though  there  has  been a  pretty  long  history  of recycling  fabric  and  clothing. To  clarify,  by  recycling  here, I'm  not  talking  about  thrift  stores which  are  great  in  their  own  right. I'm  talking  about  remanufacturing clothes  that  are  no  longer functional  into  new  cloth. In  1813,  an  inventor  figured  out  that wool  could  be  recycled in  much  the  same  way  as  paper, into  what's  called  rag  wool  or shoddy,  is  that  a  familiar  word?AYeah,  that's  where  it  comes  from?B That's  where  it  comes  from.AShoddy work.  So  it  must  not  have been  very  high  quality.BWell, I'm  not sure  if  there  was  a  quality  loss  in  it, but this  shoddy  could  then  be  respun  into  yarn. Much  simpler  and  more  common  is  simply  down cycling  clothes  into  wiping  rags  for wiping  off  things  that  are oily  or  otherwise  going to  be  like  a  single  wiping  use.AThat's  a  lot  of  rags  though.BYes,  that  is  a  lot  of  rags. I  don't  think  that  there's quite  that  much  demand, which  is  why  they  end  up going  to  a  landfill  most  of  the  time. But  clothing  can  also, of  course,  be  mended  when  it  is  damaged. Clothes  can  also  be  broken into  seamless  sections  of fabric  and  used  for  patches, or  turned  into  patchwork  quilts or  even  patchwork  clothes.ASo I'm  guessing  you're  not a  fan  of  fast  fashion.BHaha, no,  fast  fashion  is one  of  the  things  that  needs  to  die  fast.AOkay.BSome  companies have  invested  in  developing  a  means  of chemical  recycling of  synthetics  like  polyester, in  a  cradle  to  cradle  type  process. But  this  is  not  in the  mass  application  stage. Bits  of  natural  fiber  cloth, like  cotton,  wool, or  linen  that  are  too  stained  to be  reusable  can  be composted.  With  this  array of  possible  quasi  recycling  options, one  reason  I  didn't  want to  include  fabrics  in a  recycling  discussion  is because  it  has so  many  different  shades  of  reuse  and  doesn't  compare well  with  other  materials  in  that  way. The  other  big  reason  is how  many  clothing  tags  I see  that  have  blended  fibers. I  said  earlier  that  composite materials  are  almost never  recyclable.  In  fabrics this  is  not  quite  as  hard  a  rule because  a  patchwork  item  need not  be  made  from  uniform  materials. But  mechanically  or  chemically  separating blended  fibers  is  a  complete  nonstarter. You're  familiar  with  stretch  jeans,  right?AMm  hm.BThat  modification  of the  fabric  that  makes  them stretch  also  makes  them stretch  in  unflattering ways after  a  few  years, shortening  the  lifespan  of  the  garment and  making  it  difficult  to repair  and  impossible  to recycle.  Finally, Abi,  do  you  remember  hearing  about the  three  Rs  in  elementary  school?AReduce,  reuse,  recycle.BThose  are  the  ones.  That is  a  list  put  in  order  of priority  of  how  to deal  with  waste  better  than throwing  things  in  the  trash.  First, you  buy  less  stuff. You buy less stuff by  making  things  go  farther or  being  judicious  in  what  you do use. Do  you  really  need  to  buy  that specialized  kitchen  gadget  that you'll  probably  only  use  once or  twice  before  forgetting  you stuck  it  away  on  the  top shelf.AIn  the  kitchen  randos bin.BThe kitchen  randos box.AWe  have  one  of  those.BSecond, reuse  the  things  you get  instead  of  tossing  them. This  can  include  everything from  repurposing  containers  for plants  or  crafting  with  used  materials, buying  secondhand  products, repairing  things,  et  cetera. And then  if  you  really  can't  do  without  a  thing or  figure  out  a  way  to use  it  again,  recycle  it.  Why  do  you  think, Abi,  that  this  priority  was reduced  to  a  slogan that  lost  its  real  meaning?A I  don't  know.BMy  assessment  though  is  that reducing  and  reusing would  cause  a  drop  in  economic  activity, but  recycling  causes an  increase  in  economic  activity.AYes,  that  makes  sense.BPerhaps  recycling  actually  has some  negative  effect on  extraction  industries, but  modest  recycling  would actually  boost  manufacturing, which  benefits  from increased  supply  of  materials. Also,  recycling  requires  less  thought and  intention  than  reducing consumption  or  reducing  discards. My  very  last  subject  will bring  us  back  to  green  washing. Where  in  all  of  our  discussion did  you  hear  something  that  made you  think  of  green  washing?AEnlighten  me.BCompanies  are  doing it  all  the  time  in  advertising. Making  a  thing  seem  great, for  being  2%  better, if  it  is  better  at  all.  This  gets  to what  I  think  is  one  of the  biggest  and  most  dangerous problems  with  recycling. Throwing  a  discard  in  the  recycling  bin  feels good  even  if  it  only  has  a  marginal  effect or if it has in  the  case of  wish  cycling  a  negative  effect. It  doesn't  have  to,  but  it  can turn  into  a  way  of green  washing  yourself  into  feeling  virtuous when  you're  really  doing the  bare  minimum.  That psychic  relief  can  cause  people to  think  they  are  doing something and that's  enough. First  they  toss  in  the  can, then  they  throw  in  the  towel. AHaha, cute.BThank  you. I  am  quite  proud  of  that  one, to  quote  my  mother  in  law, for  whom  I  must  say, I  have  a  great  deal  of  respect.AUh oh, where's  this  going?BI  already  recycle. What  more  do  you  want  me  to  do?AShe  said  that?BShe  did.AUh oh.BIt  was  one  of the  nights  that  you  were  already  in  bed.A I  bet  that  got  heated. BYeah. A  little  bitABut Let's  not  forget  the  very  first time  you  met  my  family. You  instantly  started  in on  lecturing  my  mom  about the  chemicals  in  diet  Coke.BYes.A Made  a  great  impression.BI  do  that.  Make  great  impressions. Okay,  that  is  my  content. If  I'm  being  honest, it  was  a  lot  of  bad  news.  Sorry  everyone. But  in  the  spirit  of trying  to  make  things  better, I'm  not  going  to  merely  make  you  feel  bad. Studies  have  shown  that  the  best  way  to address  anxiety  is  to  have anything  that  you  can  do  about  the  anxiety inducing  problem. Here's  what  you  can  do  about the  problems  with  recycling. First  of  all,  check your  local  government's  website  to  figure out  what  is  accepted  and  how  to  recycle. If  you're  not  sure  where  to  look  for  that, start  at  the  state  level and  it  will  likely  point  you  in the  right  direction.  Pick  up  litter if  you're  bored  in  a  public  place, you  can  do  this  all  by  yourself. You  don't  need  to  ask  permission and  nobody  will  stop  you. The  next  obvious  thing  to  say  is, don't  put  recyclables  in  the  trash. I'm  giving  you  permission  to  be slightly  obnoxious  about  it. Slightly.  If  I  don't  see a  place  to  recycle an  obviously  recyclable  item, I'll  bring  it  home.AYeah,  you  are  obnoxious  about  it.BYes,  I  am,  but you  don't  need  to  be  as obnoxious  as  I  am  about  it, listener.  You  could  ask a  worker  if  there's  a  place  for  recycling  to go  and  if  not, ask if there’s a  way  to  ask  the  manager  to  get  one  put  in. In your workplace you can ask the management to put together  a  recycling  awareness  drive  to  help workers  understand  what  is  and  isn't recyclable  and  where  to  put  these  items. And with any  luck,  you could  even  convince  them  to  set recycling  improvement and  or  waste  reduction  goals. If  it  feels  like  a  game  or a  competition,  it's  not  drudgery. Another  great  move  is  to  think twice  before  buying  plastic. There  may  be  a  better  option or  at  least  an other  option. The  next  step  is  civic  engagement. You  can  show  up  at  your  local city  council  or  town  board  meeting and  push  for  better  access  to recycling  services  and  better  practices by  the  local  government  in  their  buildings, such  as  not  buying plastics  or  not  buying  disposable  plastic this  or  that.  You  can  get  involved  in a  local  political  party unit  and  start  pushing  for better  and  better  practices  and policies  at  every  level  of  government. Join  an  interest  group for  zero  waste,  recycling, or  an  environmental  concern.  Go  to  a  protest. Contact  your  representatives. Contact  companies  that make  your  favorite  products. Tell  anyone  who  will  listen that  recycling  matters  to you  and  there  are ways  that  everyone  can  do  better. In  this  case,  some  progress  can  happen quickly  because the  recycling  system  is  already  in  place. It  just  needs  to  be  used  better. I  want  to  reiterate  the  words  of  the one slur  from  Dr.  Seuss  Lorax. Unless  someone  like  you cares  a  whole  awful  lot, things  aren't  going  to  get better.  They're  not. That's  it. Okay. We're  done.AWell,  no,  we're  notBOkay.  I'm  done.ASo  we  just,  the  last  episode  we  did was  about  the  climate  emergency.BYes. ASo  recycling  is connected  to  that. But what  about  the  shoving  the  responsibility  onto individuals  part  of  it?BVery  good  point.  I  thought that  I  had  covered  that, but  I  actually  did  not in  my  pages  of  notes.  So that move, that  anti  littering  campaign  and even  the  framing  of  discards  being  left  in nature  as  littering,  something that  the  individual  is  responsible  for, which  they  are,  comes from  companies  like  Coca  Cola, who in I  forget  what  year, they  were  part of  the  group  that  started Keep  America  Beautiful  campaign.  Sound  familiar? And so  this  was  something  done  by  bottlers and  other  groups and  tried to  make  American  consumers feel  bad  about  throwing something  into  nature.AWhen  it  was Coca  Cola  that  was  using plastic  bottles  in  the  first  place.BYes,  when  it  was  Coca  Cola  that was  churning  these  fuckers out  by  the  million. Making  individual  consumers  of their  products  feel  bad  for having  the  container  that this  company  made still  in hand  and  not  knowing  what  to  do  with  it. So yes, this  is  right  in  line  with  Shell releasing  a  carbon  footprint  calculator.AYes. The  audacity.BCarbon  footprint  again, was  a  thing  created  whole  cloth by  oil  companies  for  exactly  that  purpose. To  shift  blame  from  them, the  producers  to  you,  the  consumers.AI'm  sure  people  have calculated  the  carbon  footprint of  Shell, and I'm  sure,  ridiculous.B It's  probably  about  like the  military  footprint  of the  United  States,  a  great  big  one.AOkay.  So  I  am relieved  to  hear  that  recycling  is  not, you  know, Bit's  not  a  shamA as  cynical  of  a  reality as  I  was  concerned it  was.BMm  hmm.  I  have  heard  tinfoil  hat kind  of  people  say  things  like, it  doesn't  matter  if  you put  an  aluminum  can  in the  garbage  or  in  the  recycling because  it  all  goes  to  the  waste  incinerator anyway.  That  isn't  true. That's  a  talking  point. And if  it  was  true,  it  would be  economically  stupid  because like  in  our  specific  town, it  doesn't  matter  how big  your  recycling  bin  is, you  get  charged  a  flat  rate  for  recycling. But  the  bigger  your  garbage  bin  is, the  more  you  get  charged  for  it.AThen  what  would  be  the  point  of  arguing that?BTo  get  people  to  stop  doing  it.ABut why? Who  does  that  benefit?BPeople  who don't  want  you  to  care  about the  environment  at  all.ATrying to  cultivate  apathy in general. Because secretly it  serves  business  interests.BApathy  serves  the  status  quo all  the  time,  every  time.AWhich  means  apathy  serves  capitalism.  So  metal.  Metal  is  where  it's  at, that  it's  more  recyclable  and  more useful  than  someone  might  think.BYes,  absolutely.AMore  paper  products,  more  types  of paper  are  recyclable  than  I  realized. Glass  should  be reused  instead  of  recycled  when possible.BAll  things should  be  re  used  instead  of recycled  when  possible.ARight. Mason  jars,  man. Like  somebody  should  haveBMason  jars  are  where  it's  fucking  at.AWell,  I  know,  but  someone  should  have  like a  central  repository  for people  to  turn  in  their  mason  jars. And  like  people  can  come  pick  them  up  and then  they  wouldn't  need  to buy  them  from  Fleet  Farm. Because  all  you  got  to  do is  boil  them  and  then  do  whatever. Plus  it  makes  you  look  socially  conscious and  cool  if  you  bring  your  salad in  a  Mason  jar  to  work.BThat's  true.ANot  very  functional  though,  unless  you  dump the  salad  out Bdirectly  onto  the  desk. Yeah.AI  mean,  a  plate  would  generally be  less  messy,  but  yes.BDepends  on  how  clean  your  desk  is,  I  suppose.AOh,  man. How did all  this  ranch  dressing get  in  my  keyboard? Plastics  avoid  when  possible. But  that's  really,  really  hard.BIt  is.AAnd  I  think  that's  a  burden  that's not  fair  to  place  on individuals,  like  stop  buying  plastic  because the  world  is  such  that  we cannot  live  without  it. I  mean,  it's  embedded  in  our  bodies  at this  point. So I think that  when  it  comes  to  plastics. That's  where  I  think  more regulation  andBSystems change.Aand  awareness  is  the  answer. Does  that  seem  fair?BYes,  it  absolutely  does. I'm  not  advocating  for  feeling  bad  about only  having  plastic  products available  and  having  to  pick  the  lesser  evil. I'm  talking  about  cases  where  you  could legitimately  get  a  good  replacement for  a  plastic  product  with one  that  is  not.ALike  for  what?BIn  buying  clothing, you  could avoid  synthetics.AActually  just  buy  secondhand  clothes.BYeah,  buy  secondhand  clothes because  that  requires  no  manufacturing. That's  true. Yeah.A I've  heard  people discuss  what  a  problem  it  is  to  try  to  get rid  of  clothes,  that  there's just  mountains  of  clothes  out  there.BYeah.  A  lot  of  it gets  shipped  to  the  third  world. Well,  to  what  has been  called  the  third  world, but  like  to  Africa  and  Asia, which  is  kind  of  funny  because  we ship  a  lot  of  clothes  here  from  Asia.ASimilar  to  recycling, people  feel  good  when  they  drop  off a  donation  box  at  their  goodwill  or  whatever. And  you know  that's  one  half  of  the  equation. If  you're  still  buying  new  to  replace, you're not ultimatelyBYou're  not helping.AReducing  the  demand. But  again,  this  is  coming  from  someone  who, like  I  try  to  buy secondhand  most  of  the  time, but  sometimes  it's  just not  realistic  for  what  you  need. So again,  speaking for  the  pragmatists  out  there, it's  something  to  be  aware  of. But  I  wouldn't  get caught  up  in  being  a  purist  about  it.BRight. Yes,  our  society  is  not  set  up  to  accommodate purists  at  all  in  that  way. So  know  that  you're  doing  your  best.AThanks  Benton.BThank  you.

January 4, 2024

Dealing with climate doom

Benton and Abi feel bad about climate change. As they should. They talk about how to channel negative emotions into productive action, as recommended in the book ⁠Facing the Climate Emergency⁠ by Margaret Klein Salamon. Sources and further reading Salamon, Margaret Klein (2023). Facing the Climate Emergency: How to Transform Yourself with Climate Truth. New Society Publishers. Bakke, A. & B. Bakke (Hosts). "Disaster Comm, Part 1: Disaster is the New Normal." (24 Nov. 2022). [Podcast Episode]. In TC Talk. https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/techcommtalk/episodes/Disaster-comm--Part-1-Disaster-is-the-new-normal-e1r7var/a-a8u21lb Bakke, A. & B. Bakke (Hosts). "A Tech Comm Prof and a Space Enthusiast React to Don't Look Up" (6 Jan. 2022). [Podcast Episode]. In TC Talk. https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/techcommtalk/episodes/A-tech-comm-prof-and-a-space-enthusiast-react-to-Dont-Look-Up-e1cffr5/a-a76c9bs Resilience. (2023, November 15). Crazy Town Bonus Riff: Bundyville and Stories that Need to Be Told with Leah Sottile. Resilience. https://www.resilience.org/stories/2023-11-15/crazy-town-bonus-leah-sottile/ Westervelt, Amy. (Host). (2016-present). Drilled [Podcast]. Drilled Media. https://drilled.media Transcript BIt's  depressing. It's  enraging.  It's  frustrating. It  makes  me  want  to  change  everything  I  do. It  makes  me  feel like  it  won't  make  a  difference if I do. It makes me  want  to run  for  office  to  fix  something. I  get  all  the  feels  about  it.AHi My  name  is  Abi. I'm  a  professor  of  technical  Communication.BOh,  now  me?AMm  hmm. BAnd  I'm  Benton. I  am  not  a  professor of  technical  communication.AAnd this  is  TC  talk. That's  tech  talk. So we  talk  about  Tech comm  whether  or  not  we  are professors  of  it, BRight. I  guess  that  you  could  consider  me  a  bit  of a  subject  matter  expert on this. Expert ay  be  a  little  overreach  butARight we're  talking climate  today.BWe're  talking  climate.AThis  is  going  to  be  a  hard  episode.BYeah, AI've  been  putting  it off  because  we're  going  to  talk about BThe  climate  emergency Aand specifically  our psychological  states  around  it, our  emotions  around  it.BMm  hmm.AClimate  anxiety. Climate  doom BYes.AIt's  a  real  thing. It's  safe  to  say  we  both  have  experienced  it.BYes.  Would  you  like  me to  mansplain  it  to  the  audience?ABen  splain.BBen  splain.  Okay.  That  sounds a  lot  less  negative.AAre  you  going  to  Ben  splain the  climate  emergency  or  climate  anxiety?BClimate  Doom.A Oh,  okay.BSo  climate  doom, which  can  lead  to  climate  Doomerism, is  a  response to  information  about the  climate  emergency  that  is  basically, well,  we're  all  fucked  and there's  nothing  we  can  do  about  it.ARight. Climate  doom  is perhaps  an  unproductive  manifestation of  climate  anxiety.BPerhaps?AOkay,  okay.BIt's  explicitly  an  unproductive  response.AOkay. So Listeners  may  recall  several  months  ago  we did  a  series  on  crisis  communication.BYes.AAnd in  the  course  of  that,  in  part  one I  believe  we  talked  about  how  I  tend  to, well,  initially  I  said I  tend  to  bury  my  head  in the  sand  in  response  to  bad  news. And  then  I  revised  it  to no, I  run  around  like  a chicken  with  its  head  cut  off. Because  as  much  as  I  wish  I  could bury  the  feelings,  I  can't. They're  always  there and I  find  them  paralyzing  at  times.BIt  drives  you  to  avoid engaging  with  the  data, with  the  reality.A And  you  are,  you're  kind  of  like, let  me  work  this  into every  casual  conversation.BYeah.AWhich  makes  you  a lovely  dinner  party  companion. BHow  many  dinner  parties  have  we  been  to?ASee,  that's  why!BI  doubt  it.AWe'd  be  invited  to  more  if  people weren't  always  like  we  can't  invite  Benton, he's  gonna  be  holding  us  all  accountable. No,  but  you're  right and  you  have  very  kindly  and gently  brought  my  attention  to this  tendency  of  mine  and  we  have  a  thing. Who's  that?BThat's  Fern.ALet  her  in. This  is  our  first  time  recording with  two  cats. BYeah.AAnd  Fig  has  never  been  in  the  blanket  for  it, so  it's  a  new  experience  for  him. where  was  I? So you  very gently  brought  this  to  my  attention by  recommending  that  I  read  this  book. And  the  book wasBFacing  the  climate  emergency.AHow  to  transform  yourself  with  climate  Truth, by  Margaret  Salomon  Klein. I  did  not  like  what  this  book  had  to  say. It  called  me  out.  I  needed  to  hear  it. I  hated  the  experience  of  reading  it. But  I'm  on  board. So this  author,  she  is  a  psychologist and  a  climate  activist. She  founded  the  Climate  Emergency  Fund. And I  feel  like  psychological  perspectives have kind of  been  missing  from the  conversation  about  climate  communication. Well, I  shouldn't  say that. I  hadn't been  paying  attention  to  the  fact  that there  is  work  being  done  around psychological  responses  to  climate  change and  how  that  affects  people's  behavior. This  topic  is relevant  to  TC  talk  listeners in  a  couple  of  ways. Obviously,  technical  communicators are  tasked  with  conveying complex  technical  and  scientific  information to  a  range  of  audiences. Climate  change  is  scientific  and  technical, but  it's  also  affecting  everyone by now, BYes.ASo it  should  not be  the  scientific  and  technical  topic  that remains, this  is  knowledge  that  should  not  be hoarded  or  kept  amongst  experts. It  needs  to  be  shared  widely. And  that's  not  to  say  people  haven't  tried. I  think  for  a  long  time  there's  been  that, that  classic  science communication  misconception that if only people  knew,  if  only people  had  the  information, they  had  the  facts,  then  they  would  do the  right  thing.  Then  they  would  understand.BMmm  hmm.AThen  they  would  believeBthe  Education  Panacea  fallacy. I  just  made  that  up.AYeah.  There  is  an  actual  name  for  that. But  I  can't  think of  what  it  is  at  the  moment. So  I  think  part  of  the  solution  could  be understanding how  people  are  approaching  it  cognitively. One  thing  I  always  encourage my  students  to  do  is consider  the  emotional  states of  their  audiences. There's  never  going  to  be a  reader,  or  an  audience, or  a  user  who  is  in  a  100%  ideal  frame of  mind  when they  encounter  your  communication.BTrue.A People  will  have  different beliefs  and  feelings and  obstacles  that  affect how  they  respond  to  the  information. So on  the  one  hand,  I  hope  that  by  discussing this,  people  who  teach  and  do  tech comm can, we'll  give  you  something  more  to  consider  in terms  of  crafting communication  for  your  audiences, but  more  relevant  to  our  focus  today. We  each  also individually  have  to  deal  with  our  shit.BYes.AI  just  I  have  feelings  about  this  stuff. I’m going to vomit  them  upon  you.BWhere  they  come  from  is a  question  that  is  real.ASo  my  dad  is  a  songwriter. One  of  his  first  songs  he  ever wrote  in  college,  that  was  a  lyric. We'll  never  let  him  live  it  down. Um,  feelings,  I  have  feelings.BBy  us talking  about  it  and  our  feelings I think that, I  hope  that  we can help guide  others  to begin this  process  on  their  own.AYeah.  Which  is  something  that  she  says  in the  book  that  we  need  to do  is  we  need  to  talk  about  it. Do  you  remember  when  we  went  to the  DFL  picnic  and  I  was talking  with  our  Minnesota  State  representative. And  I  was  like, so, give  listeners  a  brief  rundown  of  how awesome  the  Minnesota  Legislature  has  done.BYes.  So,  national  news  has  picked up  a  lot  of  the  accomplishments  of  the  DFL, which  is  the  Minnesota  variety of  Democrat, ADemocratic  Farmer  Laborer.BYep. Anyway,  their  accomplishments at  the  state  level, having  control  of  the  State  House,AThey  have  a  razor  thin  majority,BBut  having  that  thin majority  still  accomplishing major  things.Alegalized  marijuana,BPaid  sick  leave.AEnvironment  stuff, BYes,  environment  stuff.AThe  point  is  Minnesota has  been  called  the  anti -Florida and I  think  it  should  be  a  model  to other  states  of  what to  do  when  you  actually  get  power.BMm-Hm.AIs  like  make  stuff  happen.  Anyway. So  I  was  talking  to  him about  this  and  I  was  like, what  do  we  do  about  climate  change? Omg.  And  he  said,  have  conversations  about  it. And initially  I  was  like, what  is  that  going  to  do? We  need  to  act. And  as will  become  clear  as we  proceed  through  this  discussion, you  got  to  get  other  people  on board. Everyone's  kind of  already  thinking  about  it, and  probably  ignoring  it.BMm  hm.ASo  we  got  to  make  people  uncomfortable.BYeah.AShe  shares  a  2021  study  that  showed  that 56%  of  young  people believe  that  humanity  is  doomed. 46%  say  that  climate  anxiety affects  them  every  day. So I'm  not  just  making  it  up. People  are  thinking  about it,  people  are  worried  about  it. The  book  is  pretty  easy  read. Well,  I  shouldn't  say  easy, it's  a  decently  quick  read. She  has  the  chapters  broken  down  into  steps for  dealing  with  your  climate  anxiety. The  first  step  being  face  the  truth. Second,  welcome  the  painful  feelings. Three,  re-imagine  your  life  story. Four,  enter  emergency  mode. Five,  join  the  movement  and  disrupt  normalcy. First,  a  little  background. She  says, and I quote,  “we  are in  pain  because  our  world  is  dying and  through  our  passivity, we  are  responsible  for  killing  it.”BSo  that's  why  it's important  to  talk  about  it. Anything  but  passivity.AYeah. That  sucks  to hear but this passivity  is  all  around  us. It's  like, I  don't know,  the  millennial  cynicism. It's  probably  not  limited  to  one  generation. But  when  we  see  that attitude, it  seems  like, meow,  like  the  end  of  earth  is  inevitable. Like the end of humanity  as  we  know  it  is  inevitable, we've  resigned  ourselves to  it. She  says “How  can  we  otherwise  make  sense of  the  fact  that  more  people aren't  rioting  in  the  streets at  the  imminent  destruction  of  their  lives, their  children's  lives, and  the  entire  web  of  life?” It's  one  of  those  things that  you  look  around  and you're  like,  am  I banana  pants  or  is  everybody  else?BAm  I  fully  disconnected  from  reality or  is  everyone  else? AYeah,  yeah. And  the  answer  is  kind of  everyone  else,  honestly.BMm  hm.AI  mean  ourselves  included because  we're  all like, she  says, we  look  to  other  people  to  gauge  risk.BYep.AHow  are  other  people  acting? We  follow  their  lead, and  frankly  our  leaders are  not  acting  like  this is  the  crisis  that  it  actually  is.BRight.ASo she's  part  of a  group  that  helped  make the  phrase  climate  emergency  a  thing. We'll  talk  about  what  that  is  shortly. She  advocates  for disruptive  but  non violent  climate activism  and my reactions and  my  resistance  as  I  read  the  book, have  really  helped  see  where  I  need  to  grow.BHm.ABecause  I  wish  there  were  a  way  to make  a  difference  without  making  waves. But  change  doesn't  happen  that  way, like meaningful  change  doesn't  happen  that  way.BSystems  resist  that.AYou've  certainly  looked  this in  the  face  more  directly  than  I  have. How  do  you  feel  about  the  climate  emergency? How  do  you  feel?BBad  is  too  small  a  word.AIt  is  all  encompassing  though.BIt  is  all  encompassing. Yeah.  I  feel, it's  depressing. It's  enraging.  It's  frustrating. It  makes  me  want  to  change  everything  I  do. It  makes  me  feel like  it  won't  make  a  difference if I do. It makes me  want  to run  for  office  to  fix  something. I  get  all  the  feels  about  it.AYeah.  And  overwhelmed from all the feels.BRanging  from  the positive,  I  know  how  to  fix  this. Someone  should  let  me, to Despair.AI  don't  know if  this  is  an  apt  metaphor, but  I  love  the  good  place.  The  TV  show.BMm  hm.AAnd  I  think  it's  season  three, the  part  where  Chidi, suddenly  all  truth  is  revealed  to  him, you know, the  truth  of  the  universe, and  life  and  death, et  cetera, and it's  not  good  news and he  goes  out  of  his  mind  and  he  cooks a  gigantic  pot  of  chili  in  front of  his  philosophy  class and  adds  marshmallow  peeps  and  M  and M's  while  wearing  a who what where wine T  shirt. He  tells  his  class,  nothing  matters. That's  what  you  need  to  know  for  the  test.BHe  has  a  moment  where  he says,  this  broke  me. You  get  to  a  point  of  information  where logic  just  gives  up.AYeah.  So  when  I  think  too  hard  about  climate, I'm  like,  why  not  cook  a  pot  of peep  chili  in  front  of  my  class? But  then  Eleanor  kind of  brings  him  to  his  senses  and  says, well,  what  other  choice  do  we  have  but to  try?BI  think  that's  a  pretty  good  metaphor.AYeah? All  right.  Are  you  ready  to  face  the  truth? I  mean,  you  already  have.BAre  you  ready  to  face  the  truth,  listener?AIt's  telling that  the  word  truth  pings my  conspiracy  alarm  bells, like  what  does  that  mean?BThe  fact  is  that  there  are  in fact  conspiracies,  they're  real, they've  been  uncovered.  Conspiracies that specifically  that  Exxon  knew. In  the  '70s. Like  they  were  aware  in  the  late  '70s that  climate  change  was  lock  things  up.AYeah,  I  mean,  it  is  kind  of  a  conspiracy, but  it's  one  that  works because  it  makes  us feel  better  to  buy into  the  lie  that  it's  not  that  bad. So  here  in  two  sentences, the  truth  of  the  climate  emergency is, here.  Read  this  for  me.BCertainly.  “Scientific  consensus  says the  accelerating  climate  emergency and  ecological  crisis  threatens human  life  through  famine,  disease, accelerating  natural  disasters, conflicts  and  social  collapse. Only  an  emergency mobilization  of  resources  to rapidly  transform our  entire  economy  and  society (Meaning  zero  emissions  and  drawdown) can  possibly  protect  the  future of  humanity  and  the  living  world.”AWe're  not  going  to  go  over the  science.  That's  out  there. We're  not  trying  to  convince anyone  that  this  is  real  at  this  point. We're  trying  to be real about  the  extent  of  the  damage. She  talks  about  how  we  actually  expend  energy trying  to  bury  our  feelings about  it  and  protect  ourselves. And the  media  and  the  fossil  fuel  industry have  really  given  us  a  hand  in  this  regard, even  if  we  know  they’re scum, their  campaigns have  been  extremely  effective. They  don't  have  to  deny  climate  change, they  just  have  to  scatter enough  seeds  of  doubt that  we  can  discard  info  that  may  be  true, but  it  is  hard  to  face. It  gives  us  that  plausible  deniability.BWhat  is  the  matter  with  you cat?AAnd they, so the  fossil  fuel  industry  followed the  big  tobacco  playbook,  right? And  we  have  an  entire  major  political  party that  denies  the  science  of  climate  change. The  Republican  Party  is  the only  major  political  party in  the  world that  does  that.BAmerican  exceptionalism.AAnd,  you  know, in  efforts  to  be  bipartisan  and  whatever  it, in  efforts  to  appease  that  audience, all  legitimate  efforts  to  curtail climate  change  are  going  to be  dragged  down  to  a  negligible  level.BMm  hm.ASo  the  Inflation  Reduction  act was  passed  in  2022. What  do  you  know  about  that  one?B It's kind of  a  big  change from  a  lot  of  legislation  that  we've  had lately.  It  is  an  industrial  policy  piece  of legislation  that, I  think  that  it  has something  like 360  billion  somewhere  in  there dollars  earmarked  for  climate  change, various  efforts,  which  is the  largest  in  the  world  so  far. I  say  industrial  policy  because  it  aims at  getting  these  industries up  and  going  through whatever  means  necessary.AWhat  industries? Renewable  energy?BRenewable energy, electrification  of  various  aspects of  our  industrialized  society.ASo,  it's  a  step  in  the  right  direction?BYes,  it's  a  step  in  the  right  direction.ABut  it's  not  enough.BIt's  not  enough and from the  bill  that  it  was  taken, which  you probably  heard  of  the  green  new  deal. It's  basicallyAWatered  down?BYeah, it's  like  5%  of  that.AWow.BThat's  the  problem  with  compromising with lunatics.AYeah. So  that  should  tell  you how  behind  we  actually  are. And she  talks  about  the justice  aspect  of  this  too, is  that  the  effects  of climate  change  are  not  being  borne  equally. The  gap  will  only  widen  with  the  worst harms on the  most  marginalized  peopleBwho  caused  it  the  least.AExactly.  Exactly.  And  she  talks about  “a  future  where electric  cars  and  trucks  offer a  temporarily  tolerable lifestyle  for  the  privileged, while  electric  tanks  at the  border  stop desperate  migrants  from  coming  in.”BIt's  an  interesting  comment. The  electric  tanks,  Mm  hmm. Militaries  the  world  over  have  been  by  leaps  and  bounds the  worst  emitters  of  carbon  dioxide, the  worst.  due  to  national  security  reasons, they're  not  added  in  to  calculations.AReally?BYep. If  you  know  how  much  fuel,A Oh  my  gosh.B If  you  know  how  much  fuel  an  army  is  using, you  can make  a  guess  about  how many  vehicles  of  what  types.AHow  do  you  know  this?BIt's  in  the  book.A This  book?Bmaybe  it  isn't  in  this  book. I  think  it  might  be in  Greta  Thunberg's  The  Climate  Book. A AWow.BWhich is also  a  great  read.AWhat  a  loophole.BTo  a  much  smaller  extent, global  shipping,  air  freight, container  ships,  that's  not captured  by  any  country, it's  only  3%  to  4%  of  carbon  emissions but it's  one  of  those  had to  deal  with  ones  because, you  know,  long  distance  transportation is  hard  to  do  electrically.AIt  makes  me  so  mad  to  look  at  the  billions being  indiscriminately  spent  on defense  in  our  country. Mm  hm. BAnd  no  one  questions that  it  goes  up  every  year.AAnd we're  apparently  not  able  to  keep account  of  the  carbon  emissions that  result  from  our  huge  military.BMm  hmm.  Fun  side  note,  I  don't, I  don't  know  if  there's been  a  second  one  done, but  the  Pentagon  has  failed  its  audit. They  can't  account 21 million dollars  of  spending.AWhat? Did  they  check  the  couch  cushions?BIt's  a  lot  of  couch  cushions.AThe  money  is there  because  somehow  as  a  society, we've  decided  that  this matters  more  than  anything  else. We  just  need  to  shift  our  focus. What  is  it, is it  that  climate  change is  not  a  person? It's  not  an  enemy that  we  can't  wrap  our  heads  around like  this  is  actually  a  bigger  threat than  some  other  country.BI  think there’s a lot of, a lot that goes  into  the  psychology of  not  dealing  with  it. Part  of  it  is  that  frog  in  the  pot  analogy, things  have  been  changing  slowly, so  you  might  not  have  noticed  over  time how,  for  example, you  don't  get  as  many  bugs  on the  windshield  at  night  anymore because  insect  populations  are  declining.AWe  live  in  Minnesota, it's  late  December,  we have  not  had  snow  on  the  ground, BRight? That  isn't  unheard  of,  especially in  southern  Minnesota. But as  nice  as  it  is  to  work  outside  right  now, it  still  is  unnerving.ANot  to  mention, in  the  summer  when  the  Canadian wildfires  polluted our  air  in  southern  Minnesota, to  the  point  where  we  were  advised  to  stay inside. The  position  of  climate  denial is, it may  have  worked  for  a  while. By  now  it's  like it's  keeping  you  in  your  house. How  do  you  explain  that  away?BIt’s like Don’t Look Up.AI  don't  know,  but people  are  very  motivated  to. Yeah, watch  Don't  look  up  on  Netflix or  listen  to  our  episode  on  it. What  is  it,  A  tech  comm  prof and a  space  enthusiast  react to Don’t Look  up.BSo another  thing  that  makes  it  really hard  to  address  is that  the  easiest  solution, the  best  solution,  is  less  consumption and that  is less  imaginable  for most  Americans  than the  complete  collapse  of  human  civilization.ABut  we  need  to  be  really  cautious  about thinking  that  the  solution  lies  at an  individual  level,BRight. It  doesn't.ABecause  that's  something  that the  fossil  fuel  industries, you know, that  was masterful  propaganda  to  say  recycle  and  you individually  can  make  choices to  save  the  world  while they're  the  ones Bprofiting  from  its  demise.AYes,  I  think  we  need  to  be  reasonable about  individual  actions  we can  take  to  reduce  our  own  carbon  footprint. You  know, weigh  them  against the  efficacy  of  other  individual  actions that  are  meant  to  push  us towards  systemic  change. Does  that  make  sense?BYes,  everyone  can  do  something, but  the  most  important  thing  that  we  can do  is  change  the  systems  that, you  know,  like  suburbs  make  cars  necessary. Yeah.  The  way  that  our  society  is  laid  out. It's  just  needs to change.ABut  I  absolutely  see  what  you're saying  is  that  self  interest  is something  that's  also  causing  us to  avoid  looking  at the  consequences  of  our  lifestyles because  Mm  hm. It's  hard  to  give  up  the  privilege  you  have.BRight.ASo let’s talk about some of the common psychological defenses that people use. There's  outright  denial  of  course.BMm  hm. AIntellectualization:  it's  real, but  it  doesn't  affect  me  emotionally. Willful  ignorance: I  don't want  to  know  what's  happening. Mm  hmm. Wishful  thinking.  It  can't  be  that  bad. We're  making  progress, which  is  false,  by  the  way.BRight.AI  don't  think  she  talks  about  it. But  would  you  lump  techno  optimism  in with  wishful  thinking  as a  psychological  defense?BI  would  consider techno  optimism  a  subset  of  wishful  thinking.ASo that  belief  that  science,BScience  will  figure  something  out. Science  already  figured  it  out. That's  the  thing.  We  just need  to  have  the  will  to  do  it.AWell, we  want  science  to  come  up  with  an  answer that  doesn't  require  us  to  be  uncomfortable.BRight.AIn  any  way.BWe  want  a  drop  in solution  that  doesn't  change  anything  but somehow  magically  fixes  the  problems that  our everything  have  caused.AYeah. Projection,  it  is  real, but  it's  other  people's  fault. Mm  hm.  Which  again, is  largely  true BFor  every  individual. It's  largely  true  except  for,  you  know, the  100  richest  people in  the  world  who've  done  most  of  it.AGradualism,  we can't  scare  the  public. We  need  hope,  not  fear.BMm  hmm.ABut  doesn't  that  sound  so  nice and  balanced  and  reasonable?BYeah.AAgain,  it's  the  civilized  response. It's  the  response  that allows  us  to  not  make  waves and toBit's  tone  policing.AOoh,  good  call. It  makes  it  possible  to silence  the  people  who  are being  uncomfortably  loud  about  it.BMm  hm. ABut  we  should  be  scared. Climate  communicators are  not  being  honest  with us  if  they're  not  scaring  us. And  she  also  says  that  the  claims  against public  fear  are  not  supported  by  evidence.  So  that  whole  line  of, we  can't  scare  the  public, is  not  actually  true.BWe  can't  scare  the  public, well,  the  historical  evidence is  not  in,  does  not  support  that. What  happened  after  911?AExactly. BWhat  happened  after  Pearl  Harbor?AYeah.  Fear  mongering  is  perfectly acceptable  if  it supports  a  military  intervention.BMm  hmm.AHow  convenient. So  she  says  that  public discussion  is  trapped  somewhere between  denialism  and  gradualism  right  now. And  the  Overton  window  is  too small  to  accommodate  the  reality.BYes,  the  Overton  window, I  think  ironically  it  was  actually  coined  by a  right  winger,    It's  the  window  of  things that  are  okay  to  discuss, that  are  politically  acceptable  to discuss Athings  that  are  in bounds.BMm  hm.AIn other words we  can't  talk  about radical  climate  action  without being  seen  as  silly  or  overreacting in the United States.BRight.AThe  good  news,  she  says,  we're  not  powerless.BOh,  thank  goodness.AWe  feel  this  way, We  feel  helpless  for  a  reason. She  says  “larger  forces  have  conspired, both  purposefully  and  inadvertently, to  deny  the  truth,  making  us  feel  helpless.” And that helplessness  breeds  passivity, which  allows  the  status  quo  to  continue. And she  talks  about  World  War  Two  as  an  example of  the  United  States rallying  around  a  common  cause.B Yeah.AAnd not  just  like, let's  go Bkill  the  baddies.AExactly. But  home  front like  mobilization  and  self-sacrifice.BYeah. There  were  lots  of  scrap  drives  to  get  the  important  metals, materials  that  were needed for  the  war  effort, for  things  as  simple as  building  or  retooling  factories.AVictory  Gardens?BVictory  Gardens.  Yeah.AAnd  of  course  the  up  ending  of  society so  that  women  went  to work  in  the  factories  and they  actually  created  government subsidized  childcare.Bthat even included at times the ability  to  pick  up  your  kid  with  a  hot  meal to  take  home  at  the  end of  your  factory  shift.ABut  yeah,  the  country  was  largely  unified. They  had  a  common  sense  of  purpose. It's  possible.  Covid  was an  opportunity  to  have that  sense  of  purpose  again.Bto  a  small  extent, I  think  that  some  people  captured  it.AYeah. And  with  World  War  Two, I  don't  think  there  was  an entire  political  party  that was  resisting  forward  motion. I  mean, BNot in  this  country  anyway.AWell,  I  mean,  there were  certainly  American  Nazis.BYeah,  that's  true.AAnd  what  do  you  call  them?  Isolationists.BYep.ABut  I  don't  think  they  were  the  presence that  climate  deniers  are  today.BYeah.  They  had  the  good  sense to  shut  up after  Pearl  Harbor.AMm.  Are  you  feeling  bad,  Benton?BYeah.AWell,  we're  coming  to  step  two. Welcome  fear,  grief, and  other  painful  feelings.BArgh.AAnd  by  the  way,  it took  us  a  long  time  to  get  through  step  one, but  the  rest  of  these  won't  take that  long.BOkay.AHere's  what  I  wanted the  author  to  say  when I  first  started  reading  this  book. Don't  worry  about  it.  Obviously, because  you're  so  distressed, you're  a  good  person  who cares  and  that's  what  matters. You  can't  do  anything  about this,  so  stop  stressing. Do  self  care,  go  to  therapy, meditate,  take  a  bubble  bath,  journal.BI'm  smiling. AWhy?BI  mean, you  weren't  all  wrong  there. Go  to  therapy.  Self-care, certainly.ANo,  these  are  good  things. These  are  good  things.  But  they  don't get  at  the  root  of  our  climate anxiety. BSoothe  is  not  the  right  strategy.AYeah,  I  think  those  things  should  be done  in  addition  to  meaningful  action. She  says  feel the  feelings,  they  are  justified. Stop  trying  to  tamp  them  down. There  is  freedom  in  feeling  your  feelings. You  feel  this  way  because your  fears  are  justified. I  don't  like  feeling  bad  feelings,  Benton. You  can  try  to  bury  them but  they're  still  there. She  talks  about  approaching your  feelings  with  self  compassion  and curiosity.  So for  my  part I  need  to  be  compassionate towards  myself  for  trying  to bury  or  rationalize  the  feelings  around climate  change  because  it was and  is  an  act  of  self  protection.BMm  hmm. AThis  is  how  humans  are  built.BIt's  an  act  of psychic,  psychic  self  preservation.AYeah. And  I  really  liked  what  she  had  to  say  here. “Your  painful  feelings  spring from  the  best  parts  of  yourself, from  your  empathy,  sense  of  responsibility, love  for  others,  and  love  of  life.”BThat  was so  good  to  read.AYou  know,  we  talk  about  grief even  as  being  a  sign  of  love.BYeah.AThat  we've  loved  someone.  And  I think  feeling  grief  about  what  we’ve lost, what  our  planet  has  lost,BWhat  we've  already  lost.AYes.  Is  a  sign  that, that  we  truly  do  care  about  it.BMm  hm.AWhat  was  that  stat  she had  about  the  percentage of  biodiversity  that  plummeted?BOh  boy. It  was  really,  it  was  really  sad. I  know  that,  like  I  had  mentioned  earlier, the  insect  population  as  measured  by Bug  strikes  on  windshields,  which, sure,  it's  citizen  science. It's  not  perfect  but  it's  a  good  gauge.AMm. “The  World  Wildlife  Fund’s Living  Planet  Report  2018 documents  a  60%  decline in  the  populations  of  mammals, fish,  birds,  reptiles  and amphibians  in  the  last  40  years. The  insect  apocalypse is  the  tip  of  the  spear, but  it's  also  the  base  of  the  food  chain.”BMm  hmm.A“Number  of  insects  surveyed by  weight  decreased  by  75% between 1989 and 2016.  Monarch  butterfly  population in  North  America  has  declined by  90%  in  the  last  20  years.”B In  the  last  20  years. Man.Agrieving  is  not  the  same  as  giving  up, she  says.  And here  she  talks about  the  climate  doomers that  you  referenced  at  the  beginning. “They  use  grief  as  an  endpoint, an  excuse  for  inaction”  when  we  should  be channeling  grief  into  action. Step  three  then  is  reimagine  your  life's  story. See  yourself  as  a  hero  on  a  mission. And  what  gifts  and  challenges  and experiences  have  you  had  in your  life  that  can contribute  to  this  mission? This  kind of involves  acknowledging  that you  can't  live  the  life  you've  imagined. Or  at  the  very  least,  our  kids are  not  going  to  be  able  to live  the  lives  we've  imagined  for them  and  their  kids. She  talks  about  this  will  to  live that  is  part  of  all  life, really.BYep. That's,  that's  one  of  the  impulse, that's  one  of  the  impulses  of, of  life.  Is  that  will  to  live. I  know  that  she  also  talked  about  how, gosh,  what  was  it  during  the  Cold  War? There  was  some  study  that  talked  about  the oppositeAWill  to  die?B Yeah. Basically  the  apocalyptic  thinking  that is  more  or  less  dominant  now. With  the  advent  of mutually  assured  destruction as  military  policy, it  sort  of  began that  people  were  like,  you  know  what, We  kind  of  deserve  it.ASo  what  does  action  look  like? And  that  brings  us  to  step  four. Enter  emergency  mode  versus  panic  mode, which  is  freezing,  right? Or  resignation  mode,B right? So  panic  would  be a  whole  bunch  of  action that  accomplishes  nothing. When  you  panic,  that's  what  you  do. Yeah. Run  around  and  don't  do  anything  useful.ASo  right  now  we  are  in  normal  mode, which  means  we  are  acting  in denial  of  the  reality  of  global  warming. And  although  we  would  all  say  we're not  denialists, we  know  it's  real, we  are  not  acting  like  it. And  that's  what  matters. We  feel  safe.  In  normal  mode, governments  can  invest in  multiple  priorities. Emergency  mode  says  everything goes  to  solve  our one  biggest  existential  threat. Like  nothing  else  fucking  matters,  right? Spend  without  limit  becauseBThe  cost of  not,  is  everything.AYeah.  Yeah. And Like  I  said  before, our  government  seemingly  spends without  limit  on  the  military. So there is  precedent  for  it.BYeah. The  rhetoric  of  what  it's  going  to  cost, and  the  expense  of the  green  transition  and  all  of that  is  very  much  status  quo. Not  only  that,  but  it's also  not  the  way  that  those  terms  are  used. Costs  don't  have  a  valuable  product. Investments  take capital  and  they  give  you  something. Investing  in a  green  future  is  what  we  would  be  doing.ASo  try  to  shift the  discussion  from  action costing  something  to  it  being investing  in  something. Is  that  what  you're  saying?BYeah,  I  think  that that's  the  right  way  to  do  it. Investing  yourself  in a  cause. Investing  in upgrades  to  your  home  or  whatever.ASo we  need  to  follow  the  lead of  climate  groups  that  are  acting  like the  problem  is  she mentions  extinction  rebellion, the  sunrise  movement. Are there    others  you  know  of?BJust  stop  Oil was  one  in  the  UK. They  actually  disrupted  the  flow of,  I  can't  remember, probably  just  gas  in  Britain  for  6  hours, whole  country.  With  coordinated  efforts  of, you  know, valve  turning  and  that  sort  of  thing.AWow.  And  people  complain  about  that, right? And  people  say,  I  understand, I  agree  with  them. But  they  shouldn't,BThey shouldn't  disrupt.ARight.BSo  step  one  is  don't  be that  person.  Don't complain  about  being  disrupted.AYeah,  I  mean,  you  don't  have  to  like  it,  but   that's  the  point.BExactly.AShe  also  talks  about  the  group  Act  Up, which  helped  bring  awareness to  the  Aids  crisis  in  the  '80s. They  obviously weren't  covering  climate  issues, but  they  modeled  disruptive  nonviolent  protest in  a  way  that  was  effective. Also,  if  you  are  interested  in  Act Up, then  the  movie  BPM,  I  would  recommend. It's  a  French  movie. It  shows,  I  think, a  really  realistic  picture  of  organizing  and how  there  were  disagreements  and  they  had to  prioritize and  make  decisions  but  they  had  a  shared  mission. Thanks  to  Matt  for  the  recommendation. But  the  idea  is  that  in  emergency  mode, people  shift  from  thinking in  terms  of  what  is  good  for me  and  start  to think  what  is  good  for  the  cause. When  we  personally  shift  into  emergency  mode, we  should  tell  people  because others  need  to  see  us  setting  that  example, which  means  we're  going to  be  the  annoying  ones.BYes, Awe're  going  to  be  no  fun  to  be  around. And she  says, “ talking  about  climate  is the  one  mode  of  engagement that  I  recommend  to  everyone.” On  the  one  hand  it's  like how  could  that  do  anything, but  on  the  other  hand,B it breaks  the  culture  of  silence.AYeah and if  you're  listening  to  us  and  you're  feeling uncomfortable it’s because  you  were already  feeling  uncomfortable and It's  just  coming  to  the  surface  now.  So own it.BWe're  giving  you  permission.A Yeah.  Feel  bad. BMm  hmm. If  you  don't  feel  bad  when  things  are  bad, there's  something  wrong  with  you. AOr  you are  engaging  in  a  very  human  response of  self-preservation.BRight?  I  should  say  feeling  bad  about  things being  bad  is  an  appropriate  response.AYeah.  Step  five, join  the  movement  and  disrupt  normalcy. She  talks  about  how the  original  climate  movement was  dominated  by  gradualism, coziness  with  business  interests and  insider  politics. And  how  that  is  not the  approach  that's  going  to  get  us  where  we need  to  be  anymore.  “Sustained escalating  disruptive  action  is  the  fastest, most  effective  route to  transformative  change.” She  talks  about  how  disruptive  action does  not  fit  her  personality. I  think  that's  important because  I  have  told  myself, you  know,  that's  just  not  me.BMm  hm.ABut  I  believe  in the  research  that  it's  the  most  effective. And  she  says  that  there are  many  ways  to  support the  movement  that  don't  involve, you  know,  being  out  in the  streets  rioting  or  whatever.BPeople  out  in  the  streets  don't  riot, they  protest.AThank  you. Good catch. My bad.BThat's  an  important  rhetorical  move by  those  trying to  criminalize  speech.AExactly.BWhich,  I  got  to  make  a  plug  for Drilled  done  by  Amy  Westervelt. Yes, it's  a  podcast. She  has  a  whole  season on the  real  Free  Speech  Threat and  it's  how  business, specifically oil,  is  trying  to  criminalize free  speech  largely  in  the  sphere  of  protest.AThat's  dystopian.BYeah,  it  is. AThat  kind  of  investigative  journalism, that  is  something  we can  support  with  our  wallet. BMm  hmm.AAnd  she  has,  you  know, sort of a  checklist  of questions  you  can  ask  yourself  to  gauge, like  where  might  you  fit  in? What  risks  are  you  willing  to  take? Number  one,  your  body,  for  instance, are  you  willing  to  be  physically arrested   BPhysical  confrontation with police  or  counter  protesters.AYep.  And she  says  if you  have  racial  or  economic  privilege, this  is  a  great  way  to  deploy  it. At  the  same  time, I  don't  think  you  should  force yourself  into  literal  danger. It’s, everyone  has  to  decide for  themselves  like  what's  the  limit.BHere's  where the  individualism  comes  in. You  have  to  decide what  your  level  of involvement  in  in  the  cause  will  be.ANumber  two,  your  time. How  many  hours  can  you  give  to the  cause? Your  skills, and she  lists  a  number  of  skills  here. Project  management,  publicity,  tech  support, social  media,  accounting, video  production,  childcare,  recruiting. Tech  comm  professors  listening, I  hope  you  see  an  overlap with  several  skills  that  we  teach  students. So this  could  be  an  opportunity  for a  community  engaged assignment or class  experience.BYeah.AAnd I  haven't  focused  specifically on  climate  in  my  courses, but  it  inevitably  comes up  and  some  students choose  to  do  projects  on  it  and  they  care. And  when  I  see  that,  I just  want  to  say  keep  it up,  like  this  is  what  we  need  is people  who  are  openly passionate  about  this  issue. You  could  easily theme  a  whole  course  around  this. Hm. Partner  with  a  local  climate organization  or  something. And  then  your  wallet,  what  can  you  give? And  I'll  be  honest, that's  my  go  to,  I believe  in  throwing  money  at  things. And  that's  because  I'm privileged  to  be  able  to do  that.  Not  everyone  is. And  it's  also  conveniently  the  one  that  least disrupts  me,  of  everything  listed. But  it's  a  way of  supporting  others  in  what they're  already  doing. We're  not  saying  go  out and  start  a  nonprofit. There  are  people  out  there  who  know their  stuff. They  can  tell  you  what  to  do. There  hasn't  been  much  in  the  way  of super  local  climate  organization? BRight.AI  know  you've  attended  some  meetings, but  I  don't  know  that  they've  been, that those  groups  have  been able  to  sustain  themselves.BAs  an  example,  we  live  in  Mankato,  Minnesota. So Mankato  Zero  Waste  is one  group  that's  out  there  that’s, it  has  a  specific  focus  for  environmentalism. It  isn't  exactly  focused  on  climate, but  that  is  one  group that's  local  and  active  to  some  degree, at  least Asort  of anti  consumerist?B anti  landfill. it's  really  just  trying  to keep  things  out  of  the  landfill that  could  be  recycled  or  composted  or  so  on.ASee,  I  can  get behind a like  don't  buy a  ton  of  stuff philosophy. But  yeah,  you  on  the  other  hand, you  won't  buy  stuff,  but you  will  collect  anything free  that  you  think  you  could possibly  get  a  use  out  of  one  day.BThat's  generally  true. Yeah. So  free  is  hard  for  but  I'm  working on  it  some  days  more  than  others.AI  appreciate  that.BIn  terms  of  other  slightly  less  local, there  is  Minnesota350.org  which is  just  the  Minnesota  State  Chapter  of 350.org, 350.org being  focused  on 350  is  back  in  the  '90s. Scientists  determined  we  could probably  get  away  with  having a  stable  climate  at 350  parts  per  million of  carbon  dioxide  in  the  atmosphere.AWhat  is  our  current  parts per  million?BOver  420. So  we  just  need  to  stop and  go  backwards  a  few  decades, ARight.BIt's  a  big  goal,  but  it's one  that  I  can  get  behind. There's  also a Twin  Cities  chapter of  Extinction  Rebellion. I would  really  like  to  be  involved  with Extinction  Rebellion,  because  they do  the  disruptive  stuff.AHm. And  how  does  the  media  portray  them?BOh I  think  the  most devastating  way that  the  media  portrays  them  is  not  at  all.AOh, wow.BAnd  when  they  do  portray  them, it's  like  look  at  the, look  at  these  radicals. These, far, you know,  it's  marginalizing of  the  people  involved,A right? They're  extreme  and  they're  silly.BThey're  extreme  and they're  silly  and  they're  disruptive. By  no  means we'll  talk  about  what they're  trying  to  accomplish.AYeah.  So  that's  another  thing  we  can  do as  communication  specialists and  human  beings. Is  help  try  to  turn the  tide  against  that  kind  of sentiment  when  this  is  going  on. Yeah.  Like,  calling  protesters  rioters  or  a  mob.BYou  know,  it's  exactly  that  sort  of a  rhetorical  move  that  benefits  stability which benefits  business  which hastens  ill  effects  of  climate  change. I  did want  to  bring  up  something  that  I  don't remember  if  it  was actually  covered  in  the  book. This  is  more  from  my  listening  to  podcasts. Also  notice  that  this  is, this  is  discussion  on, this  is  not  endorsement of anything but  in  the  United  States, property  rights  were  something  that was  essentially  fundamental  to the  founding  of  our  country, the  right  of  our  property  to  be  not taken  away  from  us  by  the  king. Because  of  that,  there  are  more  laws about  protecting  property  than there  are  about  protecting  life. Non  violence  sometimes  gets wrapped  up  in  that. There  was  a  group called  the  Earth  Liberation Front  in  the  '80s, I  believe  there's  only  one  member that  is  still  at  large. The  rest  of  have all  been wrapped  up  by  law  enforcement. They  were  identified  as  eco  terrorists, which  is  a  term  that  I think  is  probably  back  in  vogue now. They  never  hurt  anyone. They  did  a  lot  of  property  damage, arson,  destruction  of  machinery, to  stop pristine  forests  from  being  logged, and  to  stop  basically things  that  would  damage  environments.AFerngully. BYeah,  Ferngully. They  were  labeled  as  terrorists. They  were  labeled  as  violent. They  never  hurt  anyone. They  were  violent  against  property. That  is  a  concept  that should  be  completely  foreign, that  you  can  be  violent  against  property. You're  standing  in  for an  environment  that  can't  speak  for  itself and  you're  stopping  the  violence. And so in  assessment  of  how you're  going  to  join  the  movement and  disrupt  normalcy, I  mean,  I  know  that  the  laws are  very  much  aligned with  damaging  property, being  considered  violence. It's a  philosophical  question to  also  ask  yourself. Is  actual  sabotage  or that  sort  of  thing a  way  that  you're  willing  to  expose  yourself?AYeah.BAnd on the  current  events flip  side  of  that,  you  know, you  can  be  called  a  terrorist for  not  hurting  anyone, but  you  can't  be  called  a  war  criminal for purposely  targeting  civilians  in the  midst  of  a  besieged  apartheid  state.AYou're  talking  about  Israel?BI'm  talking  about  Israel,  yes.AYeah,  man, there  are  a  lot  of  missions  out  there that  need  disruptive  action. Where  do  we  start? BOh.Ainvest  in  the  organizations that  have  the  right  priorities and  the  right  focuses.BMm  hmm.  I  think  that  the  age  in  which awareness  of  climate  and  environmental  issues has  risen  to  prominence coincided  with  the  increased  focus on  intersectionality. As  a  result,  of  all  social  movements, this  most  recent  has had  the  most  justice  focus  to  it.AFollow  the  people  of color,  the  indigenous  people, the  marginalized  people, because making a  better  world  for  them makes a  better  world  for  everyone.BAbsolutely. You  could  go  as  far as  getting  religious  on  it, what  you  did  for  the  least  of these  you  did  for  me. You  don't need  to  start  something  new  at  this  point. You  could  start  a  new  chapter  of something  extant. You  could  start  a  local  thing, of  a  national  organization that's  doing  good  work  that  you  believe  in. Not  that  that's  easy. But  they  would  be  able  to  help  you.AYeah. BMost  important,  know that  you're  not  going  it alone.  Work  with  others. Know  that  there  are  others working  with  you  to  the  same  end.AAny closing remarks, Benton?  You  have  no  fungus  updates I'm  sure.BI  did  see,  I  did  in fact  see  oyster  mushrooms  having  been recently  harvested  or  eaten by  a  wild  animal when  we  were  at  Seven  Mile  Creek.AOh,  cute.BMilder  winters  means  a  longer  mushroom  season.  Such  fun.

September 22, 2023

Accessibility and AI

An interview with Dr. Dawn Armfield of Minnesota State, Mankato about how accessibility intersects with artificial intelligence. She shares about AI in teaching, visual AI, inclusivity, ethics, classroom technology, and her current research on virtual reality for young adults with cognitive disabilities. Find Dawn at her faculty bio or her Instagram @dawn_armfield. Plus, what does AI have to do with fungus? Sources and further reading Baquero, C. (2022, August 3). On the Ethics of Writing With AIs. Communications of the ACM. https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/263291-on-the-ethics-of-writing-with-ais/fulltext Who’s Afraid of A.I.? (2023, May 12). What’s Next: TBD. [Podcast]. Slate. https://slate.com/podcasts/what-next-tbd/2023/05/why-artificial-intelligence-needs-regulation-now Floridi, L., & Cowls, J. (2019). "A Unified Framework of Five Principles for AI in Society." https://hdsr.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/l0jsh9d1/release/8 IBM AI Ethics: https://www.ibm.com/impact/ai-ethics Post Reports: Meet the hackers trying to make AI go rogue https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/meet-the-hackers-trying-to-make-ai-go-rogue/ What Next: TBD: Who's Afraid of A.I.? https://slate.com/podcasts/what-next-tbd/2023/05/why-artificial-intelligence-needs-regulation-now Nick Bostrom: What happens when our computers get smarter than we are? (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnT1xgZgkp Nick Bostrom: What happens when our computers get smarter than we are? (YouTube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnT1xgZgkpk “The Slime Mold and the Universe.” 8 Apr. 2020. Planetary Radio [Podcast]. https://www.planetary.org/planetary-radio/0408-2020-slime-mold-universe Transcript AB:      Hi  there.  This  is  Abi  with  TC  Talk. That's  Tech  Comm Talk. BB:      I  am  Benton,  also  here  with  TC  Talk. AB:      We  are  here  for  a  special  episode  to be  part  of  the  Big  Rhetorical  Podcast Carnival  2023. The  theme  is  Artificial Intelligence:  Applications  and  Trajectories. This  is  the  fourth  year  of  the  carnival  and we  had  a  great  time  contributing last  year,  our  aliens  episode. BB:      It  was  fun  because  we  watched movies  with  aliens. AB:      Specifically  how  communicating  with an  alien  life  form is an  epic  technical  communication  situation. When  I  saw  that  the  theme  this  year  was  AI, I  thought,  well,  we  have something  to  say  about  that. In  fact,  we  did  an  episode  on  that  in the  spring  that  was possibly  less  informative  than just  entertaining  for  us  to  play  around  with, to  see  what  stereotypes AI  has  about  technical  communicators. But  things  have  shifted  since  then, the  tools  have  shifted. Professors  and  researchers  have  had  more  time to  figure  out  how  to  fit  it  into  classrooms. That  doesn't  mean  there's not  still  problems  to  be  solved, like  accessibility  BB:      and  workplace  issues. AB:      Labor  for  sure.  We're good  ones  to  be  talking  about  this. Not  as  in  you  and  me,  but  we, as  in  the  field  of  tech comm, BB:      I  think  we  should  talk about  it  too,  and  we're  great. AB:      Oh,  nice.  Well,  in  fact, it  occurred  to  me  when  I saw  the  theme  for  the  carnival  come  out. Hey,  we  have  an  AI expert  in  my  very  own  department. BB:      That's  right. AB:      So  I  figured  this  would  be a  great  time  to  hear  from  her. She  is  surely  more  informed  than  you  and  me. BB:      Yeah,  I  don't  even  read  articles. I  mostly  just  read  headlines. AB:      Shame. BB:        I  know  AB:      because  they're  probably  AI generated  headlines. Due  to  scheduling  issues. Benton  wasn't  able  to  be  part  of that  conversation  with  Dr.  Dawn  Armfield, but  we  will  play that  interview  in  just  a  moment. Let  me  tell  you  a  little  bit  more  about  her. She's  an  Associate  Professor  of Tech  Comm  in  the  Department  of  English at  Minnesota  State  Mankato. She  teaches  courses  in  visual  communication, usability  and  user  experience, content  strategy, international  communication,  all  areas  in which  accessibility  and  ethics play  a  key  role. And  we'll  see  those  themes come  up  in  our  talk. She  has  research  interests in  emerging  technologies, AI, AR,  VR  and  ethics. AI,  of  course,  artificial  intelligence, AR,  augmented  reality,  VR,  virtual  reality. Those  terms  may  come  up  in  our  talk  as  well. I  will  link  to  her  faculty  bio  and  her Instagram  in  the  show  notes  so that  you  can  follow  what  she's  doing. You  couldn't  be  a  part  of the  conversation,  but  you  did  listen  to  it. BB:      I  did. AB:      Let's  hear  from  you. What  should  not  readers,  listeners, be  on  the  lookout  for? BB:      My  perspective coming  in  with  a  pro  labor  stance  and wanting  to  be  in  solidarity with  the  writers  strike and  the  actors  strike. I  was  prepared  to  go Luddite  and  be  like,  no  more  AI. We  stop  them,  we must  fight  them  in  the  trenches. But  the  more  informed perspective  that  Dawn  brings, it  helps  to  give  pause and  give  consideration  to that  impulse  for  me. AB:      Good.  BB:      In  my  mind  it  turns  into a  false  binary  of  being an  AI  fan boy  or post-  technologist AB:      Living  in  the  woods, BB:      living  in  my  camper. AB:      That's  great  to  hear, and  I  think  Hollywood  does not  do  society  any  favors in  terms  of  presenting AI  as  actually  intelligent. BB:      It's  not  a  small  part of  the  sci  fi  landscape. The  robots  takeover  genre, AB:      that  is  not  the  issue  that  we're  facing. To  treat  it  as  such  gives  it  too  much  power. Everything  that  chat  GPT  spits out  is  based  on something  that  humans  have  already  created. It's  algorithms  deciding  what  to  spit  out. It's  not  some  mysterious  mind behind  it, BB:      Right AB:      Therefore,  it's  not  something that's  fully  out  of  our  control  either. We  don't  need  to  give into  the  doom  and  gloom  perspective. Were  there  other  things that  stuck  out  to  you? BB:      AI  accessibility. It  was  really  when  Dawn was  talking  about  it  as  a  field, but  putting  those  two  concepts  together. AI  is  already  used  a  lot  in increasing  accessibility  by  auto  subtitling. But  in  that  context, it  still  needs  to have  a  human  looking  over  its  shoulder. AB:      Yeah,  I  think  there's  two  issues  at  least, when  it  comes  to  AI  and  accessibility. And  one  is,  how  can AI  be  used  to  increase  accessibility, which  we  talked  about. And  another,  how  can  AI  tools themselves  be  designed  to be  more  accessible?  BB:      Yes. Accessibility  of  AI. AB:.     Right.  Cool.  Stay  tuned. After  the  interview,  we will  have  our  classic  Fun with  Fungus  segment  where  somehow Ben  is  going  to  connect  mushrooms  and artificial  intelligence.  On  to the  interview  with  Dr.  Dawn  Armfield. AB:      I  think  a  good  place to  start  would  be  the  big  question, what  does  accessibility  have  to  do  with  AI? And  if  in  the  course of  answering  that  question  you  can  give  us a  little  sense  of  what  you  think  of  as AI  and accessibility,  that  would  be  helpful  too. DA:      Sure,  when  I  think  about  accessibility, it's  mostly  about  how  can a  wide  range  of  people access  whatever  it  is that  we  might  be  working  on. When  I  teach  accessibility, I  talk  to  my  students  about  not  just  about computers  and  websites  and  things  like  that. While  most  of  them  are computer  science  students, that's  how  they  will  think  about  it. But  I  also  talk  to  them about  when  you're  going into  the  grocery  store, are  the  aisles  wide  enough  for  a  wheelchair or  would  someone  with a  walker  be  able  to  handle  them? Are  shelves  too  high  for  somebody who  may  have  some  reach  issues  or, you  know,  who  might  be  impaired  in  the  ways that  they  can  raise  their  hands  or have  any  tactile  problems. So  I  actually  use  the  grocery  store  a  lot because  we're  all  familiar with  the  grocery  store. So  how  accessible  is  a  grocery  store  for somebody  who  might  have some  kind  of  difficulty, or  even  just  for  someone  who  is shorter  than  average  or  somebody who  is  taller  than average  trying  to  get  to  the  bottom. You  know,  there  are all  these  things  that  we  need  to  think  about. And  so  I  want  them  to  think  about accessibility  every time  they  walk  out  the  door, and  the  majority  of  people  access  this  space. When  we  talk  about  accessibility, we  really  try  to, of  course,  we  talk  about  universal  design, which  means  that  more  people can  access  it  than  not. And  that  we  make  everything  as open  as  possible  for as  many  people  as  possible. But  we  know  that  there  will always  be  somebody  who  slips through  the  cracks  because  we  just can't  make  everything  work  for  everyone. We  try  as  hard  as  we  can. Accessibility  is  that,  is  trying  to make  as  much  of  whatever it  is  in  wherever  you are  for  as  many  people  as  possible. AI,  of  course,  is  artificial  intelligence. And  when  I  think  about  AI, I'm  not  just  thinking  about the  things  that  are  in the  news  right  now  which  are  Bard and  Chat  GPT  the  writing, although  Bard  has  expanded a  bit  to  include  visual, but  there  are  a  lot  of visual  tools  out  there  right  now  that  do  AI. That  is  one  of  the  problems  that  we're seeing  with  the  actors’  and  writers’  guilds. They're  talking  about  how visual  AI  will  be  able  to  recreate an  actor's  face  or  recreate,  or  how textual  AI  can  recreate  a  writer's  tone. But  AI  goes  even  further. It  can  use  machine  learning  in order  to  give  us  good  search  results. For  instance,  algorithms  will  use artificial  intelligence  to  give us  all  kinds  of  information. It  could  be  used  in  our  cars, in  especially  the  newer  cars with  computers,  or  the  electric  cars, especially  to  adjust  the  ways that  the  car  functions  in  order to  make  it  function  more  economically. AI  is  a  vast  area. While  we  tend  to  be  more concerned  with  the  ChatGPT and Bard  areas  or the  visual  areas  in  our  work, we've  been  using  AI  for  decades. At  this  point  we  just  don't  realize  it. AB:      I  like  how  with  both  of  those  concepts, you've  just  expanded  them  so  much  from how  we  typically  think  of  them,  where  accessibility  is not  just  about  computers, it's  about  the  grocery  store. AI is  not  just  about  chat  GPT, but  it's  about  electric  cars. How  do  you  see  those  two  intersecting?  DA:      Right. There's  actually  a  field called  AI accessibility. AB:      Oh cool. DA:      Oh  yeah, there  is  a  field  that  really  looks  at the  way  that  AI  can help  make  things  more  accessible. For  instance,  when  we are  in  our  electric  car, we  can  read  a  read  out, but  it  can  also  talk  to  our  phones, can  talk  to  us  now  through Siri  or  Google  Assistant  or  whatever. These  are  all  AI  functions that  help  us  work  through different  ways  of  having accessibility  to  the  things  that  we  use. There  is  a  caveat  to  this. In  order  for  AI  and accessibility  to  work  together, we  have  to  be  diligent as  the  humans  behind  it  and pay  attention  to  whatever  it  is  producing. There  has  to  be  human  oversight  at  all  times. We  can't  just  rely  on the  AI  to  make  things  accessible. We  need  to  test  it, and  we  need  to  make  sure  that  it's working  properly  and  not  giving output  that  would  be disinformation  or  misinformation  or  that could  be  harmful or  it's  just  giving  us  gibberish, right.  There  always  has to  be  that  human  oversight into  the  ways  that AI  is  helping  with  accessibility. AB:      Yeah,  and  I  think  it's  really  easy  for people  to  have  a  set  it  and forget  it  mentality  about  AI, like  let's  just  let  it  do  its  thing. And  our  field  of  technical  communication, I  think  we  have  this  tendency towards  being  more  critical. It  seems  like  it's  a  great  fit  for people  in  our  field  to be  aware  of  those  kinds  of  things. DA:      Yeah,  so  this  summer  I  actually  had my  foundation  level  students do  an  e-mail  using  AI. So  they  had  to  write  me  an  AI  about  what  is technical  communication  and  how  will it  work  for  them  in  their  field,  right? So  they  actually  had to  bring  their  discipline into  the  AI  output, but  then  I  also  asked them  to  answer a  few  questions  afterwards  and  say, okay,  so  what  did  it  get right  and  what  did  it  get  wrong? Where  can  you  see  this going  way  off  the  rails? And  what  did  you  have  to  correct  in that  e-mail  to  me in  order  to  make  it  correct? I  think  it's  up  to  us  in tech comm  to  really  think  about these  things  and  say  it's a  tool,  that's  what  it  is. It's  a  tool  and  it's  an  awesome  tool, but  it  can  also  be  a  really  dangerous  tool. And  we  have  to be  those  critical  thinkers  about AI  and  think  about  how  can  we use  it  to  make  our  jobs  easier, but  not  use  it  to  the  point  of where  we  just  do  leave  it  to  do  its  thing. AB:      Mm  hmm.  So  now  that  we  have the  broad  strokes  of  accessibility  and  AI, now  I  want  to  move  on  to  the tell  me  about  yourself  question. But  I'm  especially  interested in  what  kind  of  background, whether  it's  teaching,  or  professional, or  personal,  that  led you  to  your  interest  in  this  topic. DA:      I've  worked  in  IT  since  I  was  in  my  '20s and  I  worked  in IT  departments  and  did  a  lot  of  the  IT  work. Usually  it  was  for  public  service, like  the  county  or a  university  or  things  like  that. I've  always  worked  in  and  around the  computer  area  of those  businesses  or  those  organizations. Whatever  it  is  with computers  or  with  technology, I'm  always  really  interested  in what  is  coming  and how  will  it  affect  the  humans. On  the  other  end,  even  in the  early  '90s  when  I was  first  doing  online  chat, and  I  would  think  about  online chat  at  that  time, people  were  always  thinking, all  right,  it's just  a  computer  out  there,  right? We  weren't  thinking  about the  people  on  the  other  end. And  then  eventually  we  got to  this  place  where  we  were  thinking,  okay, there  are  actually  people  on  the  other  end, but  I've  always  thought  about  that, how  is  this  affecting the  people  who  are  either  using  it  or who  are  engaging  with  it  or  who are  having  it  used  on  them. So  how  can  we  think  about these  technologies  and  the  humanity that  is  engaging  with  them? My  professional  life  engaged  in  that. But  then  when  I  started  doing  my  education, all  of  my  work  was  about  technology. I  didn't  major  in technical  communication  in  my  undergrad, but  I  actually  did  a  website for  one  of  my  junior  level  writing  classes. And  my  professor  said,  oh, there's  an  entire  field  that  does  this  kind of  work  that  you  might be  interested  in,  right? That's  how  I  got  introduced to  technical  communication. And  it  just  seemed  like that  right  fit  for  me,  that  I  am very  technology  oriented  and  even though  technical  communication is  not  just  about  that, it  fit  with  the  kind  of  person that  I  am  and  the  kinds of  interests  that  I  have, but  also  with  accessibility. Having  worked  in  web  design  and  in distance  learning  and  in instructional  design  and  things  like  that, taught  me  about  how accessibility  is  super  important. I've  had  these  two  things coming  at  me  all  of  the  time, the  technology  and  the  accessibility, and  thinking  about  the  people  at the  other  end  of  this  and  how  to  use  both  of those  in  order  to meet  our  audience's  needs  at  all  times. AB:      You majored  in  geology,  am  I  right? DA:      Yeah. AB:      Okay. Glad  I  remember  that  correctly. DA:      Was  a  double  major actually,  it  was  English  and  Geology, but  I  wanted  to  write for  National  Geographic. AB:      Oh,  that  sounds  fun. DA:      I  thought,  oh,  if  I  have  a  science  background and  an  English  background, then  I  could  do  that. AB:      My  next  question,  you  answered  this  earlier. What  are  some  examples  of accessibility  challenges with  AI  technologies? DA:      Yeah,  of  course,  it's  the  human  oversight, but  it's  also  that  we  need  to think  about  AI  just  as that  tool  and  not think  about  it  as  a  cure  all. AI  can  be  an  amazing  tool. Like  this  summer,  I was  playing  with  it  quite  a  bit to  create  visual  information, just  to  play  with  it and  to  use  images  that  I  was creating  in  AI  for  say  like a  logo  or,  my  nephew  and  I  were making  up  band  names  and  we  were creating  band  paraphernalia  with  AI. But  we  also  had  to be  really  careful  and  think  about are  the  things  that  that  AI is  pulling  in,  are  they  copyrighted? So  we  have  to  think  about  where's this  information  coming  from  or where’s  this  image  coming from  or  where  is  this  data  coming  from? Is  it  copyrighted  information that  we  are  using? And  if  I  wanted  to  use  it  as a  logo  or  just  to  have  fun, am  I  being  a  responsible  user to  the  artist  who  first  created  this  or  is this  a  wholly  newly created  thing  that  the  AI actually  came  up  with  just by  me  telling  it  what  to  create? The  answer  is  typically  no, that  it's  pulling  images from  all  over  the  place  to  pull into  the  system  to use  in  whatever  it  is  that  you're  creating. We  have  to  be  really  responsible  and think  about  the  ethics  behind  it  as  well. And  then  I  think  that  an  overreliance  on AI  could  create  spaces that  might  seem  accessible, but  that  could  actually  cause  problems. For  instance,  we  might  use  AI  to create  a  syllabus  which  is  fun. I  did  that  for  a  class  and  it  was  fun. Of  course,  I  had  to  tweak  it  quite  a  bit. But  one  of  the  issues with  it  is  that  when  I  asked  it  to, and  creating  a  syllabus for  a  class  that  I'm  not  even  teaching, I  was  just  trying  to  play  with  it. It  had  information  that  could  be considered  not  appropriate  for  all  audiences. Not  that  it  was  using  swear  words or  that  it  was  using information  that  was  R  rated or  X  rated  or  anything like  that.  It  was  nothing  like  that. But  there  is  a  bias  in  AI  because  typically AI  algorithms  are  written by  white  men,  right? And  so  there  is  a  natural bias  built  into  this, where  if  I  asked  it  to  pull  up  authors, it  was  pulling  up  white  male  authors for  me  for  that  syllabus. I  think  I  saw one  female  author  in there  and  no  people  of  color. So  we  have  to  really  think  about those  biases  that  AI  is  creating  as  well. When  I've  done  visual  information  and I'll  just  say  create  a  woman  walking  a  dog, it  almost  is  always  a  white  woman. I  have  to  specify  a  person  of  color, we  have  to  think  about  those  biases  as  well. That  does  create  a  barrier  to  accessibility, because  if  people  of color  are  not  seeing  themselves in  the  AI  or  not  finding that  accessibility  within  the  AI, then  they're  not  a  part  of that  conversation  and  they  need  to  be. Accessibility  can  be  even  more  foundational. I  think  it's  not  just about  getting  along  and  getting  into  a  space, but  it's  about  how  we fit  within  those  conversations. AB:      And with  the  syllabus  example, it's  a  good  reminder  that  when  you use  AI  to  generate  a  genre, it's  pulling  from  what  is,  not what  ought  to  be  right DA:      Right. AB:      or not what's  inherently  right. I  was  wondering  too,  if your  syllabus  had  policies, because  I  can  imagine from  an  accessibility  standpoint, if  it's  drawing  from what's  out  there  already, then  if  instructors  haven't been  thinking  in  terms  of  accessibility, then  that's  not  going  to  be reflected  in  things  like attendance  policies  or  what  mediums you  can  use  to  create  in. Did  you  see  any  of  that?  DA:      Yeah. In  fact,  one  of  the  biggest  ones was  you  cannot  use  a  phone  in  this  class. But  in  my  classes,  that  is  never  a  rule. I'm  like  use  whatever  technology you  can,  just  be  responsible  about  it. I  would  never  have  that  in  my  syllabus, but  it  seems  to  be  a  big enough  rule  out  there. I'm  guessing,  especially  say  like  in a  math  class  where  they  might  use it  for  tests  or  whatever,  things  like  that. But  I  don't  do  tests. I want  them  to  use  their  technology. But  that  was  one  of  the  big  ones. But  that's  also  an  accessibility  issue. We  might  have  a  student  who needs  to  record  the  class  because their  brain  just  might  not process  things  as  fast  as  we're  talking. So  they  might  have  to  go  back  and  re-listen, and  re-listen  and  re-listen  in order  to  get  to  where  we  need  them  to  be. Right? So  that  could  be  an  accessibility  issue. Or  they  might  need  to  be able  to  pull  things  up  because they  can't  remember  things  as easily  as  somebody  else  might  be  able  to. And  that's  okay. I  think  these  phones  have  made  my  memory  go. So  I  totally  understand  that. Right.  Because  we  have  so  much  at our  fingertips  now  that  we don't  have  to  remember  as  much. So  creating  those  kinds of  policies  is  definitely  an  issue. AB:      Yeah,  yeah. And  I  can  see  instructors possibly  pushing  back  and  saying, well  if  somebody  needs an  accommodation,  they  can  ask  for  it. And  it's  like,  yes,  that's  usually  built  into like a university's  accessibility  policy. But  the  point  of  accessibility  is  to not  require  someone  to  have to  overcome  that  obstacle  in  the  first  place. DA:      Yeah,  so  that's  really  interesting. I  also  follow  some  Reddit  forums on  accessibility  and  on  professors. And  a  lot  of  professors  write about  accommodation,  a  lot  of  them  do. And  how  they  demand that  their  students  bring  in a  form  from  disability  services before  they  will  ever  make  accommodations. So  that  might  be  built  into  policies  as  well. And  I  didn't  see  any  of  that in  mine,  but  I  also  did, I  didn't  have  it  look for  disability  services  policies. So  yes,  there  would definitely  be  that  kind  of  an  issue  as  well. Because  I  know  that  that  conversation is  going  on  with  other  professors, not  just  in  the  United  States  but  also in  parts  of  Europe,  because the Reddit boards  have people  from  all  over  the  world  on  them. I  think  that  that definitely  could  be  an  issue. AI  has  actually  been a  really  big  conversation in  these  discussion  boards. I  think  so  many  of  them  are  against  it. It's  really  interesting, even  computer  science  professors are  against  their  students  using  it. But  isn't  it  incumbent  upon  us  to  be the  responsible  people  to  say  use  it  wisely? Let  me  show  you  how  to  use  it, or  let's  talk  about  how  we  can  use  it, because  you  might  be  able  to  show me  a  different  way  of  using  it,  right? Let's  have  that  conversation about  using  it  and  being  ethical  about  it. The  very  first  thing  I  have my  students  do  is  they read  an  article  about  the  ethical  use  of  AI. We  start  there,  then  we  build  from  that. AB:      Yeah,  because  people  are  going to  use  it.  DA:      They  are. I  don't  see  it  as  any  different  as using  a  graphing  calculator. That's  how  I  look  at  it. For  a  long,  long  time, those  were  barred  in  classrooms. But  then  it  got  to  the  point  where so  many  students  had  it  that  there had  to  be  policies  made  up  about  it,  right? There  had  to  be  talks  about  how  to ethically  use  this  in  the  classroom. AB:      Don't  get  distracted  playing  snake or  whatever  that  little  game  was. DA:      Right.  Exactly.  AB:      That  would be  the  least  of  the  concerns  I'm  sure. DA:      But,  but  the  AI  things can  totally  be  that  way. We  can  totally  have  a  lot  of  fun  with  it. But  you  can  also  see where  if  you're  not asking  your  students  to think  about  it  critically, then  they  could  just  use  it  to  write  a  paper, not  even  think  about  that  paper. But  then  they're  missing  out  on the  whole  point  of  the  paper,  right? They're  missing  out  on  that  growth potential  in  creating  something. Even  if  they  use  AI  and they  go  back  through  and  they  edit  it. At  least  they're  thinking  about  it. They're  thinking  about  that  topic. They're  seeing  what  AI  is  saying  about  it. But  then  they're  also  saying,  okay, but  that  didn't  quite  make sense  and  I  need  to  rework  this. So  if  we  give  them those  tools  to  use  it  responsibly, then  I  think  that  we're  doing  a  better  job. AB:      Yeah.  That  active  engagement and  that  reflection  is  so  important. DA:      Yeah. AB:      My  next  question  is  about,  well, you've  talked  about  teaching  a  little  bit, but  what  has  your  research revealed  about  accessibility  and  AI? And  I  know  you've  been  on sabbatical  for  the  past  year, so  this  might  be  your  chance to  let  us  know  what  you've  been  up  to. DA:      Well,  the  majority  of my  research  has  been  on  using, using  extended  realities, which  AI does  have  a  part  in  this, especially  in  augmented  reality. You'll  see  AI  in augmented  reality  quite  a  bit, but  it's  also  in  virtual  reality. Not  necessarily  as  much  in the  ones  that  I've  been  working  in, but  what  we  have  seen, because  we've  actually  been  using AI  models  in  helping  us  think  about how  to  create  our  presentations or  how  to  think about  different  parts  of  our  writing  process. Or  to  even  think  about  what kinds  of  questions  could we  ask  our  participants  in  our  project. Our  project  has  been  working with  young  adults  with  cognitive  disabilities to  create  their  lived  experiences of  using  public  transportation and  going  to  work. They  create  their  lived  experiences through  virtual  reality  experiences. They  take  a  lot  of  pictures  and they  do  recordings  of  their  voices. And  they  do  videos, and  then  they  put  these  into a  virtual  reality  environment. But  one  of  the  things  that  we  were doing  when  we  were actually  creating  one  of these  is  thinking  about, okay,  well,  how  could  they  use AI  to  help  them  do  this  as  well? How  could  I  assist  them in  creating  their  spaces  more  easily. Because  virtual  reality  environments, even  if  you  use  the  easiest  one  out  there for  someone  with  a  cognitive  disability, it  can  be  difficult. Or  if  they  have  mobility  issues moving  anything,  right? So  we  have  these  accessibility  issues in  creating  these  environments. So  how  can  we  use AI  in  order  to  help  them  create  this? One  of  the  things  that  we  thought about  doing  is  actually  having the  students  talk  to the  AI  and  use voice  recognition  instead  of  typing. Talk  to  the  AI  and  say, I  want  to  create  an  environment  that talks  about  this  and  this  is  my  experience. And  then  they  can  get a  more  robust description  of  their  experience. And  then  they  can  copy  those  words  and place  them  into  a  VR  environment. Or  they  can  use  the  visual. The  visual,  sorry,  I  have way  too  many  acronyms  going  on  in  my  head. They  can  use  the  visual  AI  in order  to  create  a  scene  that  they  hadn't actually  participated  in  on the  bus  or  that  they  had  and they  hadn't  gotten  a  picture  of, right. So  they  could  do  a  scene. And  my  nephew  and  I  actually did  this.  We  were  talking  about, okay,  You  didn't  get a  picture  of  you  at  night  time  on  the  bus. So  let's  create  an  image  of  that  using  AI. And  we  did,  but  we  actually  did it  riding  a  bus  in  space,  right? So  he  had  a  moon  behind  him  and  he  had this  space  mobile  or  something  like  that. But  it  actually  added  his  personality  into that  environment  in  a  different  way than  just  his  image  and  his  voice. So  he  and  I  had  talked  about  doing  that. We  didn't  actually  put  it  into our  final  presentation, but  it  was  something  that  we  had discussed  and  we  had  talked  about making  in  order  to kind  of  give  him  some  creativity  in  that. Because  sometimes  virtual  reality  can  seem like  you  just  replace  this here  and  this  here  and  this  here. And  where's that  creativity  when  you're  trying to  explain  a  situation  or  give  instructions? Even  because  really,  basically  what the  VR  experiences  are, are  instructions  on  how  to  ride  a  bus when  you  have  this  kind  of  a  disability. How  can  we  put  some  creativity  into  that, beyond  just  creating  the  environment? That's  what  we've  been working  on  and  the  ways that  we've  been  thinking  about  using  AI. AB:      It  seems  to  me  that  one  of the  goals  of  this  work  is to  help  designers  gain more  empathy  for  these  audiences. Does  that  sound  right? DA:      Yeah,  not  just  designers, but  also  thinking  about  community  services. If  somebody  from  the transportation  department in  this  specific  community sees  how  people  are  using  their  buses or  having  difficulty  using  these  buses, how  can  they  make accessibility  to  the  buses  better? Or  how  can  the  teachers  understand the  issues  that  the  young  adults  are  having? Because  they're  in  a  transfer  program, so  they  actually  have  teachers that  are  doing  all  of  this  with  them. Accessibility  is  at the  core  of  this  research. It  is  everything  in  this  research, understanding  accessibility to  public  transportation  or accessibility  to  jobs  is really  where  we  started, and  we  just  are  using  technology  to  help build  that  out  and help  create  more  equitable  spaces. AB:      Yes,  you're  using  AI  really thoughtfully  and  intentionally to  create  more  access, whereas  I  can  see how  uncritical  use  of AI  could  shut  out  more  audiences. DA:      Right,  exactly. AB:      What  do  you  want  technical communication  students  or  instructors or  professionals  to  know about  accessibility  and  AI? DA:      Oh,  that's  a  good  question. I  think  this  would  be  with  anybody. I  want  them  to  know that  AI  is  a  powerful  tool when  it  comes  to  accessibility. It  can  open  up  spaces, but  it's  also  incumbent  upon us  to  use  it  just  as  that  tool, use  it  as  one  of  the  tools  in our  toolbox  to  create  a  more  equitable  space. We  have  to  be  intentional  and  we  have to  be  empathetic about  the  ways  that  we  use  it. We  have  to  understand that  it  automatically  leaves some  demographics  out  and it  will  be  important  for us  to  bring  them  back  in. It's  just  a  tool, that's  all  it  is.  It  is  not  a  cure. All  it  can  help  us create  these  environments that  are  more  accessible, but  they  are  not  completely  accessible. We  have  to  intervene and  make  the  space  even  more  accessible. AB:      So  it's  not  a cure-all, but  it's  not  necessarily something  to  be  scared  of  either. DA:      I don't  think  we should  be  scared  of  it  at  all. I  think  that  we  should  just  see  it  as an  extension  of  our  documenting  process, right.  Word  has  been telling  us  and  giving  us  suggestions or  Google  Docs  has  been  giving us  suggestions  for  years. It's  already  using  AI. But  now  instead  of just  giving  us  a  little  words or  phrases  to  end our  sentences  or  to  include, now  it's  giving  us  entire  paragraphs or  entire  papers. But  we  have  to really  think  carefully  about  that,  would  you? When  you're  writing  your  e  mail  and  it  says, here's  the  end  of  that  phrase,  right? And  you  can  hit  your  enter just  to  include  that  phrase. Is  that  really  the  phrase that  you  wanted  to  use? Does  that  convey  the  meaning? As  we  in  technical  communication know  every  way  that  we  use  a  word  has a  different  meaning  and  it can  impact  our  audience in  either  positive  or negative  or  neutral  ways. We  have  to  think  about are  those  words  that  the  AI  is  using, Are  they  the  right  ones? If  they're  not,  where  do  we go  in  and  correct  for  that? AB:      I  did  get  a  suggestion  in my  Outlook  as  I  was drafting  an  e  mail  that  I probably  should  have  listened  to. But  at  the  time  I  was  like, what  does  that  have  to  do  with  anything? It  was  like  giving  suggestions  for  tone. And  I'm  like,  this  is the  most  boring  e-mail  ever. How  could  tone  matter?  And  after  I  sent  it, of  course,  I  saw  that instead  of  hello,  I  had  typed, hell,  I  mean, I  doubt  the  recipient  thought  I  was, you  know,  opening  an  e-mail  with  profanity. But  it  was  just  kind  of  funny. DA:      But  it's  true,  right?  It  gives  us that  opportunity  to  just  click, and  just  go  through  or to  click  no  or  whatever. And  we  do  it  just  automatically these  days  because  it's  just  right  there. We're  so  used  to  it,  but  we  have  to start  thinking  about  all of  that  intentionally. I  don't  always  use those  suggestions  like  you  didn’t. Sometimes  I  do. Especially  if  it  knows  that  I've  written the  same  sentence  like  50  million  times, I'm  going  to  use  that. Or  it  might  also  make  me  think,  okay, you  might  overuse  that  phrase, why  don't  we  try  something  new? AI  has this  really  great  possibility  of  helping  us think  even  more  deeply  about  language or  even  communication  as  a  whole. Because  if  we're  talking  about the  visual  AI  as  well, I  think  it  can  help  us  really  think about  the  way  that  we  communicate. Deeper  ways  to  ask  us  to  be  more exact  and  to  be precise  in  the  ways  that  we  communicate. It's  going  to  pull  in  a  lot  of randomness  or  a  lot  of  generalities. But  in  most  things  that  we  do, we  need  more  precision. It  will  require  us  to  really read  carefully and  think  about  that  precision. AB:      That's  such  a  good  point. Is  there  anything  else that  you  want  to  share? Anything  I  should  have asked  you  that  I  didn't. DA:      I  think  maybe  about AI  policy,  when  we're  thinking  about AI  policy,  instead  of  thinking  about it  as  something  that  could  ruin  a  classroom, think  about  it  in  ways  that  it  can  be a  positive  fixture  in  a  classroom. But  beyond  that,  I  was  actually  listening to  a  podcast  this  morning about  the  writers’  strike. And  they  were  actually  talking about  AI  and  how the  writers  are  really concerned  about  AI  taking  over. The  podcaster  said something  to  the  effect  of, right,  well  if  it's  the  writers  now, it  could  be  the  teachers  tomorrow,  right. AI  could  take  over  their  jobs  or  AI could  take  over  a  secretary's  job or  something  like  that. It's  up  to  us  to  start creating  policy  about  the  use  of AI  and  to  encourage our  unions  because  that's what  they  were  actually  talking  about, was  unions  to  include  that  in the  language  of  our  contracts, to  say  AI  is  a  tool  but  it  is not  a  replacement  for the  kind  of  works  that  work  that  humans  do. We  have  to  be,  again, very  intentional  about  AI  and  how we  let  it  run  us  or  we  run  it. AB:      Perfect. Thank you so much. DA:      You’re welcome. AB:      What  about  Fung? BB:      What  about  fungi? AB:      Yeah BB:      This summer  I've  got  a  stack  of logs  in  the  backyard  that  had oyster  mushrooms spontaneously  fruit  out  of  them, which  made  me  happy. Oyster  mushrooms  are  relatively easy  to  identify  because  they only  grow  on  wood  and they  don't  have  poisonous  lookalikes. AB:      Excellent.  Did  we  eat  them? BB:      We  did.  I  mean,  at  least  I  did. AB:      Okay.  BB:      I  think  you  did  too. AB:      You  snuck  them  into  something? BB:      I  think  that  I  just sauteed  them  and  had them  with  like  rice  or  something. AB:      Oh,  okay. BB:      I  thought  you  had  some,  but  maybe  not. AB:      I  probably  did  and forgot.  Let's  try  to  connect  it. Do  you  think  AI  could  be  used  to successfully  identify mushrooms  that  are  safe  to  eat? It  probably  already  is. I  know  there's  got  to  be an  app  out  there  somewhere. BB:      I  know  that  in  my  foraging  groups, not  only  for  mushrooms  but  for  plants  too, people  will  use  something  like  Google  Lens. You  know,  it's  basically  AI. Take  a  picture  of  this  with my  phone  and  tell  me  what  it  is, AB:      like  a  reverse  Google  Image  search,  BB:      Kind  of. Yeah. So  again,  if  you  haven't  heard  me  say  before, the  first  rule  of  foraging, never  eat  anything you  cannot  positively  identify. AB:      Google  lens  is  not  sentient. BB:      No,  it  is  not.  This  is definitely  a  case  where  we do  that  whole  human  over the  shoulder  thing.  On  the  foraging  groups, like  someone  will  have  a  screenshot  of like  Google  lens  told  me it’s this, is  it  actually  this? Mushrooms  are  pretty  hard  to discern  in  some  cases  anyway. Real  mycologists  will  weigh  in  and  say, no,  AB:      You  have  real mycologists  in  your  foraging  group? BB:      Amateur  mycologists are  real  mycologists, but  there  are  a  few in there. AB:      Citizen technical  communicators. BB:      Yeah,  there  was  something I  was  going  to  say AB:      About  oyster  mushrooms? BB:      Oh,  it  does  connect  to  AI. I  believe  the  growth  patterns of  slime  mold  actually map  fairly  well  onto the  distribution of  dark  matter  in  the  universe. AB:      Mind  blown.  BB:      Yeah,  I actually  heard  about  this  on Planetary  Radio.  Host  interviewed the person  who noticed  the  similarity  and used  the  growth  pattern  of AB:      slime  mold, BB:      of  slime  mold  to  help  inform  the automated  looking  for dark  matter  algorithm?  Algorithm. AB:      That  is  wild  stuff. BB:      Yes. AB:      There  you  go  folks. That's  your  fun  with  fungus  segment. I  wish  I  could  say  that  you can  follow  TC  Talk  on  Twitter, but  I  have  been  using  it less and less. BB:      Why  is  that? AB:      Let's  not  get  into  it  now. BB:      He who  shall  not  be  named? AB:      Right.  I  will  still  engage  minimally  just for  TC  Talk  promotion  purposes  but  it's  A  R, underscore  Balle  B  A  K,  K, E  if  you  want  to  follow  me there  and  if  I  decide  to  jump  ship, I  will  let  you  know  to  where  I  am  jumping.

May 25, 2023

How to read, revisited

How to turn off your inner literature professor and create a habit of reading for enjoyment. Books mentioned Dies the Fire, S.M. Sterling Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, Marie Kondo Republic, Plato Sophie's Choice, William Styron Moby Dick, Herman Melville Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Jeff Kinney Where the Red Fern Grows, Wilson Rawls Garfield, Jim Davis Calvin & Hobbes, Bill Watterson White Teeth, Zadie Smith The Expanse, James S. A. Corey The Boxcar Children, Gertrude Chandler Warner Little House in the Big Woods, Laura Ingalls Wilder Farm Boy, Laura Ingalls Wilder Quiet, Susan Cain The Dispossessed, Ursula Le Guin The Climate Book, Greta Thunberg The Fellowship of the Ring, J.R.R Tolkien Sources and further reading Bogel, A. (n.d.). What Should I Read Next? Podcast. https://modernmrsdarcy.com/what-should-i-read-next/ Libby App. Retrieved May 25, 2023, from https://www.overdrive.com/apps/libby/ Saturday Night Live (2017, May 14). Sean Spicer Returns (Melissa McCarthy)—SNL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbpUcfpbnrs Woodside, C. (2016, September 11). How ‘Little House on the Prairie’ Built Modern Conservatism. POLITICO Magazine. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/little-house-on-the-prairie-conservatism-214237 Yankovic, W. A. (1993). Livin’ in the Fridge: Alapalooza. Rock N Roll Records. Transcript AAre your class sizes mysteriously ballooning?BAre you tired of walking from one end of the lecture hall to the other?AOr from one campus to the another?BIs it impossible to find time to grade?AFrom the creators of Course Hero, a revolutionary new classroom technology -BGodium, the podium that lets you lecture on-the-go.AConvey the superiority of the sage on the stage, with the mobility of the guide on the side.BWith space to hold a laptop, textbook and optional plexiglass COVID barrier. Zero turning radius allows for steering seamlessly between backpack straps and charging cords. AThe whisper-quiet motor mean you can sneak up on the student using ChatGPT in the back of the class.BIn addition to classroom mode, there's also autonomous mode.ASimply input your GPS coordinates and Godium will take you where you need to go at a blistering speed of 4.5 mph. grade papers uninterrupted during your commute.  How else are you going to do the work of two full-time professors?BAsk your administrator if Godium is right for you. Rental options available for contingent faculty members. Do not use Godium while intoxicated. Only use Godium with IRB approval. In rare instances, whiplash, injury, death, or exploitation may occur. AI Grading software, heat-seeking plagiarism detection, and cupholders available at additional cost in the tenure upgrade package.AWe're TC talk, a tech comm podcast.BMy name is Benton.AMy name is Abi. I am a tech comm prof.BI am not.ABut we chat about things that are of interest to technical communication scholars, practitioners, and maybe just everyday people.BI hope so.AWho encounter and use tech comm in their everyday lives and perhaps even create it, without knowing that that's what it is.BWoah.ABenton, it's our last episode of season Two of TC Talk.BLast one?AAnd I thought it would be fruitful to revisit the topic of how to read. You'll remember that was our first episode of all time.BYes.AAnd it had gotten more listens than most, which could just be the fact that it was the first one and when people discover a podcast, they like to go back to the beginning.BList order bias?AAlthough there's nothing really chronological about our topics,BTrue.ABut it could also be that this is a topic that people care about. So assuming that's the case, I will forge ahead. I did go back to that episode to kind of see what my baseline was. And it was cringe as the kids say. But in looking back, I can see that just taking that moment to talk about it and be intentional about my reading goals and habits, et cetera. I am in a totally different place than I was then. How about you? If you can even remember?BI remember it was upstairs and downstairs. So that's a totally different place too. How long ago was that?Atwo years? Summer 2021. Because I was starting my sabbatical and the pandemic kind of pushed us into podcasting. Well, not really. It just seemed like the thing to do. I think everyone else had the same idea, but hey, we've kept it up for two years.BThat's true. I credit you with the determination and follow-through to keep that going. Because I just show up when you ask me.ARight. But reading wise, do you think anything has changed for you in the past couple of years?BI tend towards a little bit more non-fiction now I think. That doesn't mean that I'm uninterested in fiction. I do love blitzing through good novel.AI think everything you read has to do with climate one way or another.BThe thing is, everything everyone reads has to do with climate one way or another. Every part of society boils down to carbon. It does.AWell, I guess books are printed from trees, right? And even screens are surely not carbon zero.BRight.AYeah. So I think your reading is pretty focused. You've got a niche that you like. I feel like I've been more adventurous with my reading. By adventurous, I just mean diverse, perhaps in terms of genre and format.BMaybe.ANow, onto reading for fun.BOh boy.AAnd yes, I know some of you find scholarly reading fun. I do too. But I'm talking about something that is for you and not forBNot for professional developmentApurposes of tenure and promotion or whatever. Because like I mentioned before, as soon as you're obligated to do something, it takes it takes away a little bit of the ability to enjoy it, at least for me.BYeah, I think that if someone had laid out all the non fictions that I have read and said, read these I’d be like, those are such big books.AAnd it literally could have been a syllabus for like an environmental communication class or whatever.BProbably.ASo I asked a few people about this. Colleagues, friends, students, just to get some perspective on how other people fit leisure reading into their busy lives. Because I can sit here and talk about, here's what I do. But that only works for me a fraction of the time anyway.BYeah.AAnd it evolves a lot. So I think it would be more useful for listeners to kind of hear that variety.BYeah. In contrast, I won't make fun of my coworkers, but one of them attempted to insult me because I read I read books when we're not doing things in the truck. just as my fallback thing, instead of dinking around on my phone all the time,AInsult? What did he say?BHe said You're such a librarian.AOh I would take that as a compliment.Byou have to imagine too like, certainly someone who's going to listen to this podcast is not going to be like books are dumb. But he, he said that he had he hadn't read a book since high school.AOh, no.BWhich is mind-blowing to me. Like, I don't I don't get that.AOkay. People are allowed to care about different things.BThey certainly are,AAnd we'll talk more about that in a bit. But yeah, I mean, that's right up there with one of your teachers calling you and intellectual tyrannosaur, is it not? What grade was that?BThat was that was in 11th grade. For correctly identifying Macedonia on a map.AOh, wow. I did do one of those like can you identify the European country quizzes. And I manBdidn't do well?ANo.BHow long ago was that?AOh, just a few weeks ago when I couldn't sleep one night I was like, I mean the 50 states. I've got that nailed. That. Let's try Europe. Nope.BSo what did you find?ASo I looked through the responses for trends. Because I can't resist turning everything into a qualitative study.BYou.ABut here's the first thing I want to say. You don't have to read. You don't have to read for fun. You are not a better or worse human for having a regular reading habit or not.BGive three supporting details.AOne thing that came up in the responses with that was that it is hard to read. It is hard to find time to read. Kelly said, “it took me a while after grad school to get into a reading routine. I felt like I didn't have any space left in my brain not to mention time for more reading outside of what I do for work.” Joseph said “in my first master's, I learned that the academic setting is where reading for fun goes to die. The studying and the work of research, office assistant and teaching writing, complete with grading, made reading become my job and I lost track of reading for fun. I was a sci-fi fantasy nerd up to that point, but after reading for work all day, I lost the desire. When I graduated that MS my program chair gave me a Barnes and Noble card. I actually wept. I was so ashamed that I had not read a book in over 18 months except for school. I immediately purchased Dies the Fire by SM Sterling and read the series.”BPretty good. By the way.AIs that the one with.Bthe Ember verse, the one where electricity and explosions both stopAWhat's the one that you read with the annoying main guy?BThe self-important magic one?AYeah. Yeah. Yeah..BThat's The name of the wind by Patrick RothfussAOkay. Not the same.BYeah, a guy who should really get the fuck off is asked and finish writing that trilogy, write two to books and then dither.AOkay. And Matt says, “I will confess that is a perennial struggle. Ever since grad school, the amount of reading that I do that is connected to my academic work, means that pleasure reading often gets pushed to the margins of my free time. Furthermore, the fact that so much of my job as a film studies professor is tied to viewing, means that often my free time is taken up by watching movies that broadly aligned with my overall academic goals and responsibilities. In short, leisure reading has been one of those things that I continually try to re-prioritize in my life, but I've had mixed success.” These professors are all talking about seasons in their life that leisure reading has been a struggle. And my, again, my response to that is, that's okay. You don't have to read for fun because I needed someone to tell me that. Like my first year as an assistant professor. You may recall, I worked every single weekend. I never felt caught up. On top of feeling like I was barely surviving, I also felt guilty for having such a shitty work-life balance, you know. So it's like guilt compounded upon guilt. But it was a season. It didn't last.BRight.AI'm not working every weekend.BNo, I'm glad.AAnd so if you're in a place where you're just trying to stay above water, don't add in something that feels like a chore because you think you're supposed to.BRight.Abecause you think that's what makes you a worthwhile human being.BYeah. That that goes beyond reading.AYes. I have friends with newborns. LikeBYour hobbies become taking a nap.ANo joke.BThat's true. That's a blind spot of mine because your experience and a lot of academic and desk driving professionalsADesk driving?BLike working at a desk.AIs that a saying? Desk driving. Because here's what it makes me think of. Melissa McCarthy playingBSean Spicer.ASean Spicer on SNL with the podium on the segue.BThe segue podium. Yes, That was that was epic. you better put a link to the YouTube video in the show notes.ARight. I mean, can you imagine having that in your classroom?BYeah.AI feel like we need to record a fake promo at this point for segue podium.BOkay. I like this project.AI totally interrupted you. Desk driving professions.BYes. So people who have to do like a substantial amount of reading that is a regular part of their job.AKnowledge workers.BMm-hmm. I can see how that would make it very hard to want to do that leisurely. Kind of like how I'm less inclined now to just go for a walk when we're at home or go outside because I'm outside 10 hours a day.AYeah. No joke.BEveryone needs a balance of focused and unfocused time. And that balance, of course, is dependent on the person, but you need both to have a healthy brain. And I spend a fair amount of my workday, observing for safety purposes the other or my co-worker who is flying the boom to make sure that they don't accidentally like fly it into a power line because that's a bad day.ASo sort of an environmental awareness?BYes, being present, but there's lots of space for your mind to wander. Versus if I'm reading a book, you have experienced, like, especially when it's time to get the kids ready for bed. If I am reading a book, that is the world, that is the entirety of the world. I am focused on this book and reading the text and understanding it. So you need the balance and if you're like, if you're looking through reports and you're like thinking about how do I write this report? Like that's, that's very focus centric. And it's not very scattered focus or diffuse focus kind of work.ARight. And I think, I think reading is the kind of activity that has such range within it that even if you are parsing theory all day, like you can go home and read a murder book, which I do. Earlier this year, I had a bunch of deadlines kinda bunched up. And then as soon as I had all that behind me, I was like murder books. And they were bad books. I sat there and I told you the plot. And I was like, I cannot believe this drivel. And then I went on to read every page.BYeah.AAnd I think that that's part of recognizing that you're a human being and you can't be on 24/7 and that you deserve space to blow off steam and read tasteless trash. Now, I will say that even if you don't choose to read, it is hugely important to be able to cultivate some kind of hobby outside of work, which I am embarrassed to say didn't happen for me until the pandemic. And, you know, we bought a piano and I learned it.BAnd you learned how to podcast.APlaying music is something that engages a different part of your brain. And just to have something to care about that's not work or parenting was really important for me.BYeah.ASo I would encourage anyone who feels just too busy to just start with something. And at the same time, like if you're in a season where you can't, awesome, don't do it. But the season shouldn't last forever.BMaybe get ideas for how you're going to reward yourself for getting through to the promised land.AOr maybe you love watching movies or watching TV. in my mind, watching TV has always been the same as wasting timeBor eating junk food.ABut I savor a good episode of TV. In part thanks to you.BYou're talking about Stranger Things?AYes. Which I wouldn't have watched where it not for your prompting. And yes, I'm years behind the curve on this. As I am on most everything that's ever popular because I'm like, oh, something's popular I must go against the flow.BToo cool.AAnd then years later I discover it and I'm like, Oh, society is right. There's a reason this is great. So yeah, and to me, like sitting and savoring a good episode of TV is not the same as mindlessly turning it on and vegging out. Though there, though there is space for that too of course. Same as scrolling TikTok, right?BYep.AI think the question is, how do you feel by the time you're done with it? Because for me, I look up and 45 min have gone by and I've been watching Instagram Reels or whatever. And I couldn't tell you a single thing that I watched in the previous 45 min. Yes, I enjoyed myself while doing it, but I have literally nothing to show for it. Well, no, that's not true. I bookmark the good animal videos.BIt's true. And then I share them with the family.AI do the same with memes on Facebook. One of these days I'm gonna, I'm gonna barrage you with my folder o memes.BI look forward to it. Put them in a slideshow for me.AOkay.BMaybe you love gaming. Again gaming has a bad rap, but I think it's a lot more active than other kinds of hobbies. It is intellectually stimulating.AThey can be, yeah.BI'd rather my kid play Minecraft than just watch TV.ABut I would rather my kid just watch TV rather than play Grand Theft Auto or something like that.BYeah, that's true. Not all games are created equallyAFor young children, Yes, indeed. And I think it's also completely fair to choose your reading based on your personal or professional goals. So this comes from Lenny. “For me, I typically read non-fiction books and books that will directly help me grow in a certain area I'm interested in. It's very rare you'll find me reading a fiction novel. I typically find myself looking for new books to read whenever I have a desire to grow, learn, or become something new. And I recognize that I lack the necessary knowledge to feel confident in that area. Reading books helps me chart a pathway through unknown worlds and identities, but I want to claim for myself.” And he talks about getting into ultra running and how reading books was instrumental to him gaining some confidence in that area. And I totally get that. In the past. When I've needed a boost to do something I know that I need to do or want to do. I think reading about it can often do, can often give me that boost.BI feel like that specific thing though would feel very much like maybe not assigned reading, but dutiful sort of.AYeah. I guess one thing that comes to mind for me is if I'm feeling the urge to declutter or something. Pick up a Marie Kondo or one of those books with all the beautiful color coordinated drawers and everything.BThat’s when I need a bolt things down there so they’re there when I get home. What?ANow, Let's say you do want to be a reading person. You want that to be your hobby. You don't have to read what you think you're supposed to read. This is another thing that has been super hard for me to accept as an English major and as someone who has generally valued being a smart person most of my life. I do have this Platonic ideal of a reading list in my head that has led to a lot of guilt when I'm not reading that important stuff.BDo you ever see people put stuff like that on social media?AHave I ever seen anybody pose with Plato's Republic for their high school senior picture?BOkay. You got me.AIn your Hawaiian shirt no less. At least you read a few paragraphs of it while you were in the library are getting photographed.BWhile I was waiting for the photographer to get set up there.ALike do I see people bragging about their reading on social media? Or like, you have to read this book before you die.BLike most Americans have only read ten off of this list ofAOh, yeah.BI've read 23.AThe peer pressure kind of thing.BYeah.AYeah. Yeah. And it's bullshit. There is no such thing as a canon.BWell, tell that to the Civil War.AI recall, this was one of my first college classes I ever took. And I wrote my paper on women in the canon and the lack thereof. And for my cover page, I used a photo of a woman in a literal canon.BVery nice choice.AThank you. Okay. I'll give you an example. When I was a kid, our family had a subscription to Reader's Digest. And I remember reading an article that was like Laura Bush’s top 25 books everyone needs to read in their lifetime or something along those lines. And I put those books on my reading list. And so I'm like 12 and reading fucking Sophie's Choice.BI don't know what that is.AThat sucks when as a kid, you're told that the definition of great literature is a book in which the narrator is just trying to get into a Holocaust victim’s pants the whole time.BOh, wow.AYou know, maybe there are folks out there who are like, I love Sophie's choice and it's a great literary achievement. Fine. But I have spent so many years like trying to read the classics. And you know, at this point, I would say nine out of ten books I read is by a woman. And this is not me being anti-man. I'm simply making up for lost time, right?BYeah.AI saw a terrible tweet that kind of encapsulated this attitude. “I would 100% prefer my kid to be able to read and understand Moby Dick, but hate it and read rarely than to love reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid and its like frequently. A love of reading is nice, but it's not the goal of literary instruction.”BWow.AI mean, this guy got thoroughly dunked on.BOh good. Yeah. That's, that's like the nemesis in Ratatouille. Who is super gaunt and says, I don't like food. I love it. A food critic.AOh right and he's very anti the everyone can cook cookbook author? Yes.BSomeone who is regarded as an expert because they don't like the thing.AYou know what, Moby Dick is still on my platonic ideal reading list.BYeah.AMaybe I'll read it someday.BI know I'm never going to read that book. Sure. Maybe this is a lack of imagination on my part, but I cannot imagine that there's anything I need to learn in life from a guy who was obsessed with murdering a whale.AYeah, I can't do any animal cruelty. People die in a book, no biggie. A dog dies, I'm out. Don't get me started on where the Red Fern grows. So there's, there's so many things wrong with that attitude, especially towards childhood reading. Yet I have noticed myself like needing to be aware of that and push back against it because Zoe loves graphic novels. And I don't know, there's part of me that feels like they’re somehow less seriousBLike it’s cheating.Aand I wish she would read quote unquote real books. But at the same time, like graphic novels, are a beautiful blend of the visual and the verbal. I am not wired that way. And I respect that Zoe is.BYeah. I know I have exactly that kind of an impulse. Like for me it's more of a, It feels like a step towards watching the movie instead of reading the book. You know, it feels like cheating because we didn't have it in my day. Eh, back in my day.AYou know you would have loved graphic novels if there had been a wide assortment for you. Did you read any comic books? Well, these are comic books per se, but you had a whole pile of Garfield books. Which incidentally, Zoe loves, and I blame that 90% on why she's such a smart ass.BYeah. Yeah, I should get her I should get a Calvin and Hobbes now. I think she's ready.ASo all that to say. If you want to cultivate a reading habit, start with something that you love. No matter how unserious it may feel. Start with a childhood favorite. I, we read to our kids before bed every night and re-reading my favorite childhood fantasy books with Zoe is like one of the best things in my life. To like re-experience that and experience her reaction to it too. Except she hates when we have to end.BEvery night.AEvery night, it's like, NooBAright We need to go. that's it for tonight. No.AOne more page. Read a young adult novel. Read a book that's described as impossible to put down.BYeah.AAnd this has worked for Matt as well. He says, “I try to first return to the authors and types of writing that I find most pleasurable. I've always enjoyed literary fiction in particular and have attempted to at least somewhat keep up with a handful of authors who I’ve loved since high-school. Zadie Smith in particular is an author who I've remained relatively good at staying current with.”  Reread something that made you feel passionate about reading.BYeah.ARead an author that you know you're gonna love. Yeah, if only to give yourself a strong start, if you're trying to build a habit, right? You're not going to build a habit with Moby Dick.BNo.AMaybe.BHopefully you don't build a whale killing habit with Moby Dick. Yeah, I like sci-fi. I like sci-fi, that is hard. Sci-fi, meaning the science is not the fiction. Jumping into a series, that gets critical acclaim or that is, that has really good reviews. like when I started in the Expanse series, which is a nine book series. They're big books, but they are page turners. To me.AI can see the appeal of a series because you don't have to reacquaint yourself with the world and the characters every time. I am not a big series reader, I kinda feel like if I'm going to read a book, it needs to be able to stand alone. Again, that might just be me making unfair judgements about books, but I also really like variety. And I feel like if I'm reading something in a series, like it's too, too much repetition. Which boxcar children did you get to?BOh gosh.AWith Zoe. I'm so glad that was you and not me. I would've torn my hair out.B40s or 50s. I don’t remember. There is a lot of repetition there. They like to play house, they like to cook. They like to do the same thing again and again, and they solve mysteries.AYeah. I will say the original boxcar children was one of the first chapter books that I read with Zoe because that was one of the first chapter books that my mom read with me.BOh,Ayeah. Same with Little House on the Prairie. Or no Little House in the Big Woods.BWhich sadlyAis super racist?BWell, yes, it is super racist, but it's also a reinvention of history to make it seem very rugged, individualist, very self-reliant. There's all of this stuff that talks about how they keep their farm and how they, how they provide all their own needs. And that is not the way that frontier life was.ASo you're telling me Laura Ingalls had an agenda?BYeah.AI need I'm going to use a source for this one.BGeez, which podcast was it? One of the things that I really did appreciate about those books, the first one and the second one. Farm boy?AOh yeah.Bthey give a very like up-close understanding of preindustrial skills, which is really just the way that people lived 150 years ago.AAnd the way we'll have to learn to live when the climate apocalypse descends upon our world?BWell, that too, but I mean, just the process of how a shoe was made. They talk about how they, how they made nice rows for their potato plants way by dragging a board with nails in it this way and then the other way, and then made little mounds for it where the lines came together.AAnd I tell you what, I will never forget the pig bladder balloon. from Little House on the Big Woods. Apparently you forgot about it.BYeah.AAnyway. That would be my first tip. Find something you love. Number two. Accountability. And this can include accountability to yourself in the form of setting goals and tracking your progress. But one thing that has been a really good jumpstart to my reading in the past year or so is doing a book club with a group of friends. We take turns choosing a book so that has opened me up to genres and topics that I may not have chosen on my own but that I've really enjoyed and have kind of like set me on a path to appreciating other books. And even if I don't enjoy a book, then it's nice to have people to complain about it with, right?BYeah.AThe other thing. And thanks again to Lindsey for introducing me to this is an app called Story Graph. And Kelly uses his too. She says, “I keep myself accountable to reading a certain number of books per year by tracking my progress on GoodReads and the story graph. I especially like the story graph because it keeps track of different stats. Like how many books I read in each format and each books mood. And from those stats that gives pretty good recommendations for what to read next.” here, have I showed it to you yet?BI don t know that you have.ACheck this out. Data displays.BAh Yeah.AI mean, how could I not. pie charts, bar charts, line charts. So it's got like a progress bar for myBHow many books you want to readAMy numeric book goal, I guess. And then it kind of takes the data from the books that you've inputted. And you can see, well, I'll let you interpret it. What does this say about me as a reader?BIt says that you like books that make you feel reflective and emotional. Those are you two biggest moods and the pie chart. Pace that you read atm page numbers. 63% fiction,AWhich was not the case two years ago for sure. that's a major shift in my reading life.BThis is a little bit funny.AWhat?BThe books read and it's got the rest of the year that hasn't happened yet and it's like, Hey, you're doing great and then it flatlines at June.AYeah.BSo you’ve got what is it, five books out here that are thriller, memoir, history, historical. SoAThose are kind of my top categories. But you'll notice there's a bunch of categories for genre. Which I like because I like a lot of different things. So this is anonymous. No one's gonna be able to find me on here, right? This is largely for myself, but I still have this ghost of a English literature professor telling me I should have more classics on here, or, why is murder books at the top?BYou're killing it. There, SeeAThere. Landed a joke. The self tracking part. I just started using it this year. I don't know if it is inspiring me to read more or if I just wasn't paying attention to how much I was reading previously. But it's fun to have a better handle on that. Largely because it's helping me think about the books I want to read through a better filter than just genre. Here's what I mean by that. There are stats like, so when you review a book, you can review it for things like, is it more character-driven, or more plot driven? Is it more fast paced or medium paste? does it have likable characters, stuff like that. But those lenses can be more informative than just you like to read sci-fi. I'll give you an example. Two of my favorite genres are sci-fi and historical fiction, which on the surface, they seem like total opposites? Future and past. So anyway I'm like is there a common thread here that explains why I like these books beyond just they fall under this category. And I realized that when I'm reading sci-fi, I'm not reading it for the science or the technology or the futurism. What I like about sci-fi is how it sets a stage for ethical and philosophical questions.BI like that too. That's really the calling. The purpose of sci-fi is to get you to not realize at first that it's talking about right now.ARight.  I think the, the technology isn't a turn off for me though, if it's not super realistic or hard, as you say.BIf it isn't too?AMeaning I can see you reading a book and being like, This is so unrealistic. This is not how physics works or something like that. And that being a turnoff to you.BYes.ASo I discovered there's this sub-genre of philosophical sci-fi. And I'm like, that's where I'm at.BI heard the creators of the Expanse talk about how they actually, from book to book, they were able to play with different types of books that they were writing. Like the first one was, was, noir, it was a crime novel. And then the second one is more of a political intrigue kind of book. And then in each one has a, has a different field with the same characters.AAnd then when it comes to historical fiction, I like books that are set in war time. And I don’t actually like war. I mean, I don't, I don't care a whit about military strategy.BI played too many strategy games to not. It's baked in at this point.AI gave it a good shake. I tried I tried playing Axis and Allies with you.BYou tried. Yes. I would have literally had more fun with an Excel spreadsheet.AYou made it through being Russia on Russia's first turn. And after that you were like, I'm done.BWhat I care about is the motives, the personalities. And with Axis and AlliesANone of that.BRight. It's just like how many kinds of this battleship are you going to put in this atoll?AStrategic and tactical.BBooks set in the time of Nazi occupied Europe in particular, I feel do a great job of kind of tearing away the superfluous, What am I trying to say? It centers on like genuine moral dilemmas. And I like reading about people navigating that. Like you and I were talking about Anne Frank not too long ago. And like I was saying, it's like living out the trolley problem on a daily basis.AYeah. Which we have the luxury ofBviewing from a distance. Right.AUnless you're Chidi Anagonye.Bthat's true.ABut There's that question, how would I respond in this situation in a world where there's no good answer, how do you survive?BThat specifically is one of the things that, you know, that quandary is why post-apocalyptic media very much appeals to me. Because, you know, after an apocalypse, there is no good answer for anything.APut people in a survival situation and you see a whole new side. Also in story graph, there are reading challenges which you can sign up for. So I'm doing A to Z book titles, which is sort of a secondary goal for me right now compared to like what I do want to do is read X number of books in a year. But having that alphabet challenge can nudge one book higher on the read next list for me, you know, I'm gonna put this title next in the queue. Which incidentally I do need a Q book.B Quiet.AOh right. In praise of introverts. Right? And we're back.BWe're back.AI just spilled a full cup of coffee onto the keyboard, onto the floor, onto my clothes, onto the wall, et cetera. It may have splattered the microphone. And it was a special coffee too. Had whipped cream on it.BSalted caramel whipped cream.AYeah. Alas. This is not even the first time this week this has happened.BMaybe it's just that you have a bowl with a handle for a coffee mug.AWhere were we? My next tip is to mix up the format. I have gotten so many suggestions to try audio books that I finally gave in and tried it. I've listened to one. That experience was not enough to convert me. But I can see the appeal. I think the main problem for me is that listening to audio books would take up the time that I used to listen to podcasts and I love podcasts too much.BYeah. I don't have 130 subscribed podcasts like you do.AI don't listen to every single one. I just like having choice.BThat's actually a really great way to make use of a commute. If you aren't listening to either a podcast or an audio book while you're driving somewhere, I feel for youAYou ever heard of music?BWhat is this thing you speak of?AFor me, I can't sit and listen. If I'm going to sit and read then like holding a book feels more active, I guess. So I would save my my listening for driving or dishes or something.BOr when you just want to lay down and close your eyes.AThat's right. I do listen to podcasts a lot to fall asleep when you're not reading Ursula Le Guin to me. So don't take it from me. I'm not enough of an audio book enthusiast to tell you why you should do it. But Joseph says, “in my second master's, I started adding audio books so I could read during my commute. In my PhD, I would use the read to me feature from kindle and the Adobe reader read out loud to accompany texts I was reading for school so it was only natural that I would continue this into my reading for fun. Now that I'm working full time, I've purchased a program called text aloud. and I can turn any text into a computer read mp3. The voices are getting better and I find that it's cheaper than buying audio books so I've been buying the books on PDF, converting them to MP3s, and then reading as I listen. I think it helps retention and pacing.” And Kelly says “about 80 per cent of the books I read are on audio. I listen while I get ready in the morning, drive, Cook, clean, etc.” I will say this. A barrier to me adopting audio books is that I thought I needed to buy a subscription to Audible. I was like, I don't know enough whether this is going to be worth it for me to make that investment. But you can check out audio books and e-books from your local library.BNot available in all areas.AProbably. Yeah. Libby is what, is what that's called and it actually has an amazing selection.BDo they have an app?AYes. I actually I have it on my phone and my iPad because then I can pick up where I left off if I'm out and about and have some downtime and can just pull up my phone and keep reading. Yeah, that's really nice to is the syncing. And Lenny spoke of the distinction between podcasts and books too in a way that I identify with. He says “podcasts usually expose me to new questions and topics and help me learn by osmosis by just listening into the meandering dialogues of podcast hosts and guests. While books are usually more structured and coherent forms of knowledge, with a clear thesis the author is putting forward. both books and podcasts have their place for me.” And I think that may be why I have a harder time dipping into audio books versus podcasts is because with most books there is that need to follow the thread. Whereas with a podcast, those feel more informal. My attention can shift in and out. And I won't feel like I've lost a major plot point that I'm going to have to go back and reread, you know what I mean? Have you tried e-books, audio books?BI've done a few books on CD that I've checked out from the library and just fed them one after another into my car's CD player.AFun fact, my old car did not have a CD player, It had a cassette player.BIt did.AAnd that was a selling point because along with the car, we also threw in all of your Weird Al cassette tapes?BIt's true. When we were sellingAon Craigslist, yes. But the buyer said that piqued their interest, did they not?BI don't remember that.Amaybe it just gave them a sense of there's a real person behind this who knows.BRight now, you should pause this podcast, go listen to the entire works of Weird Al. So you know what we're talking about,AWhich you have memorized.BMore or less. *Living in the fridge, you can’t stop the mold from growing. Living in the fridge. Can’t tell what it is at all* He only makes gold. I mean, he only remakes gold.AHey, so you have heard of music.BYes, I have heard of music. Some people prefer to watch The Daily Show to get their news. I prefer to listen to Weird Al do popular music.ADo covers of pop songs.BBecause he makes it better.AYou've seen him in person?BI have. And he was a freaking dynamo on stage,AReally?BWhich it's hard to imagine someone holding an accordion being a dynamo, but he certainly was.AOkay. Would you ever try e-books? What do you think of having a book loaded into your phone so that you can read it during a slow day.B I'm not opposed to the idea.A It would make it harder to rile up your right-wing coworkers.BThat's true.AYour giant Greta Thunberg book sitting prominently out on theBUh-huh.Ayour Bernie stickerBon my car. Yeah. I mean, I don't have any problem with using an e-book. I know that there's some, some benefits that it would that it would have because there could actually be like links to like if it referred back.AYou know what I really like about it is getting to look up words immediately. So I was just reading a book about the Middle Ages. And there was a lot of stuff I could have gathered from context, but it was also nice to, you know, be like what is a lintel?BThe thing that's above the door?AYes. Who needs an eBook when you've got you? And then the next kind of category of advice I got was about making it a habit by setting aside designated times to read. That was a common refrain. There is something to be said for establishing a habit, because by definition, a habit kind of makes something automatic. And so if picking up a book feels like a chore to you, or it feels like you're going to have to summon up your willpower every single day to get into it. It won't always be that hard. That was that was the experience for me. At first I did, right. Because it's infinitely easier and more compelling to scroll through your phone than to pick up a book. But I think I can fairly say that reaching for a book has been my go-to recently.BYeah.AMatt says, “I've tried to reserve certain times of the day for leisure reading, either in the morning before work or before bed. This means moving myself away from distraction, phones, computers, and reading in a part of my apartment where I can physically detach from reminders of work, stress, etc. Lindsey says, “I have found that leaving the phone, charging in another room overnight has helped immensely. That way I read a book to unwind and get tired instead of scrolling. I also bought some bookmarks and a reading light that functions well, and funnily enough, it feels a little luxuries to use them.” Which is adorable, right? And kind of goes along with the whole, I'm going to create a reading nook, which honestly I'm going to read on the couch or at the table or in the bed like wherever I am anyway. So my beautiful fluffy reading nook tends to go unused.BWhat is that?AIn the office with the chair in the corner with all the pillows and the 14 lamps. Maybe I don't like reading there because it's associated with work. So maybe designate a reading spot. But then again, that can also feel like more pressure because you have to go to this out of the way space and it feels harder to detach from everyday life. Whereas, and this was something that you suggested in our first reading episode, is you have different books for different contexts, right?BMm-hmm.ASo you have like a dining room table book. And you've got a bedtime book, and you've got an Everywhere book. And the same is true for me.BYeah.AWhat's your living room book right now?BIt’s the climate book by Greta Thunberg. I did want to say that one thing I like about that book is that it’s like an edited collection.AIt’s curated.BIt's curated. But you get to hear from experts about various aspects of a problem or a concept, and you don't have to track them all down. That's been done for you.AHm. What would you think of like a short story anthology?BOh yeah, a short story anthology. I've read a few of those. Sometimes an author will make a collection of their own short stories in a book. That's one direction. I’m sorry what were you doing?AI was going to sing One Direction lyrics, but thought better of it.BThank you for not.  You know, the anthologies of different writers in a similar genre are interesting because reading out of a bunch of different fictional worlds in short order. It opens your mind up in a way.AAnd I imagine it would be useful for folks who can only do snippets of reading.BFor those who aren't prepared to just sit down with a Tolkien. Deep.AI would consider it if there were a freaking glossary, an index,Ban index of?ANames and places,BDramatis personae is what you're looking for.AWell, but I would also want the page numbers that they are on. So I can be like, Okay, when was this person first introduced? I can't remember them. And every book should have a map.BThat is one thing that Lord of the Rings excels in.AYes. If they did, I would know my European countries better than I do. Timelines and geography, those are things that are easy to lose track of in one setting.BOh, that would actually, things like a timeline, for a novel. You wouldn't want something where the whole timeline is instantly viewable because that would spoil it.AThat’s true, that's true.BBut if you had a, like an e-reader type thing where it unlocks parts of the timeline and you can look back. That's a fun idea.AThat is really fun.BCopyrighted and trademarked.AAnyway, it's easy to make it a habit before bed.BYep. As long as you're not reading stuff that's too thought-provoking orAwhich often that happens to me. But better that I be reading something than staying up getting sucked into a Reddit argument. I don't argue on Reddit. I read other people's arguments. I'm here to say, someone is wrong on the Internet.BYou're just here with the popcorn. You’re like Ooh.AYes. Alright, the last thing I wanted to touch on is finishing books. You may remember the first time we talked about this I said, I have a really hard time not finishing books.BMm-hmm.AAnd I think I've gotten a lot better about that. I mean, accepting that I'm not going to finish every book. Or at least I've re-framed how I view it. Because there is no such thing as a universally good book. So if I'm having trouble getting through a book, it's easy to turn the blame towards me. Like I'm too lazy to want to finish this or I'm, you know?BYeah. You didn’t make this book.ASo what? Maybe a book isn't for you, but it's for other people. Great. And so I'm starting to think of like when, when I start reading a book and I just can't like I just don't care to continue, I'm viewing that as part of the process of getting to a book that I love. It's almost like honing my internal algorithm where I can be like, What is it about this book that's not quite grabbing me?BI don’t love this!Ayou only have one life, You only have so much time. And don't waste that time on William Styron. Sophie's Choice. Sorry.BOh.AI have feelings. And there's a podcast that I recently found that I think has helped me understand this. It's called What Should I Read next? And the whole premise of it is that there's this book expert, who asks her guests to say, what are three books you love and one that wasn't quite for you. In that way she's able to build a new reading list for them based on not just like, I like these books, but why do you like them or not like them? Which is very different from a universalizedBEveryone needs to.A13 can't miss sci-fi. Okay. But why? Oh, here's another thing I do. It's kind of cheating. If I've read most of a book, I'll call that read.BThat is kinda cheating.AI mean, 80% not 51%.BOkay.ABut then that's especially good for nonfiction, where it is easier to skip around to the stuff that's more relevant. And if I held myself to the standard of needing to read 100% of a book to consider it finished, then I would just not engage with it any further. So I need to leave a little bit, a little bit of that flexibility for myself.BOkay, alright.AOr all of the Ursula Le Guin I'm missing because I fall asleep. By the time you're done with that, I'm going to mark that as read. Even though I may have only been conscious for like 35% of it. So how about you? How do you feel about not finishing books or finishing them or?BI try to be pretty picky about the books that I engage with. My narrow selection is kind of a part of that. But there have been a couple of books that I've read in the last few years that I did not finish. Oh, there was one book that I started reading and it didn't quite feel right. I got a chapter or two in. Then I looked it up and I realized it's a sequel.AOh no.BSo plot points from the first book, completely spoiled.AYep. I think it's fair to say that you are, you maybe have a better sense of yes, this is a book I'm going to like, whereas I really have found enjoyment in dabbling.BThat's fine.AI think freeing myself from this unreal expectation that I need to finish every book I start. That, opens it up for me to be more adventurous in my selections because I know I'm not committing myself to something that I'm going to hate. There’s an off ramp.  What else do you have to say?BI think in summary, the last thing we want is to induce pressure on you. Our dear listener. You've got enough internal pressures that you need to be cognizant of and try to dismantle them on your own. Like with the perceived what I should be doing, what I should be reading how, when, how much, all of the right, all of theseARight you don't need the ghost of Laura Bush breathing down your neck.BNobody does. Is this George W. Bush's?AYes.BOkay. She isn't dead yet actuallyAOkay so she wouldn't be a ghost.BSpecter?AYes, that's it.BMoreover, if she said you should read it, you probably should not.AI know. I mean, Reader's Digest wasBIt was still a dominant forceAIn my life.BYeah.AI would guess that the target, our target audience is probably the type of person who has that internal pressure. Oh, I should read.BYeah.AThere is a limited number of books you will be able to read in your lifetime. Some of those may be like challenging and rewarding in their own way. And others might be trashy murder books and each has their place. I think the thing is whatever you're doing, take some time to be intentional about it so that it is reflective of what you truly want versus I don't know who else, who else is a good representation? Oh, yeah the Moby Dick idiot on Twitter. I hope that this has not come across as prescriptive, but just these are things that people do that have helped them accomplish the goals that they want to accomplish. Any, any closing remarks? Any season closing remarks?Bif you're still listening to us, good for you.ABenton's going to talk about recycling in the future. I don't think I can commit to regular publishing of TC talk going forward, but I'm not ready to say goodbye fully. So don't unsubscribe, even though you don't, you won't see us for a few months,BRight.AWe may pop up now and again.BWe'll be back. Get to the choppa.

April 27, 2023

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 2

This is part 2 of 2 about the book IBM and the Holocaust by Edwin Black. In Part 1, we described how IBM, through its German subsidiary Dehomag, supported the mass extermination of the Jewish people. How do we know IBM's involvement made a difference in the scope of the mass murders? One clue comes from comparing how things went down in the Netherlands vs. France. We also talk about surveillance, ethical hacking, why the logical fallacy "argumentum / reductio ad Hitlerum" shouldn't be a thing, and what the story of IBM and the Holocaust has to do with UX design. Sources and further reading Black, E. (2001). IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America’s Most Powerful Corporation. Dialog press. Gabriel, M. (2011). Love and Capital: Karl and Jenny Marx and the Birth of a Revolution. Little, Brown. Gannon, L., & Rucker, R. (2022, November 17). Breaking Bad Energy. Building Local Power podcast https://ilsr.org/blp-breaking-bad-energy/ Is “Holland” the Same Place as “the Netherlands”? (n.d.). Retrieved April 24, 2023, from Brittanica https://www.britannica.com/story/is-holland-the-same-place-as-the-netherlands Katz, S. B. (1992). The Ethic of Expediency: Classical Rhetoric, Technology, and the Holocaust. College English, 54(3), 255. https://doi.org/10.2307/378062 Purnell, S. (2020). A woman of no importance: The untold story of the American spy who helped win World War II. Penguin Random House. Transcript ALast time we talked about the book IBM and the Holocaust by Edwin Black and how Thomas Watson, the CEO of IBM knew Hitler, respected him, defended Germany against critiques from the world and overall did a great job hiding all this to the point that most people think of Watson as America's businessman and not as a Nazi enabler. Does that kind of sum it up?BYeah, that sounds about right. How different would you say the term enabler and sympathizer are?AMaybe the distinction is in the motives? Like sympathizer, I presume means you will agree with someone. Enable means you make something possible for them regardless of belief. What do you think?BYeah, I think that definitely a sympathizer knows what's happening. An enabler may not know what's going on.ASo you think by that definition, Watson wasn't an enabler, he was a sympathizer?BI think so.AWell, if it, if it comes down to awareness, then Watson was very clever about remaining strategically ignorant about certain things. But I think it's hard to claim that he had no idea. As for his motivations, I think greed is as good a guess as any. He kind of said the right words to the right people to get what he wanted. I want to tell you a story that Number one, is very interesting and number two, helps demonstrate how essential IBM actually was to the Holocaust being able to exterminate so many people so efficiently. Because I can, I can anticipate that objection. People being like, well, wouldn't Hitler have just found someone else to do it? Or how much did it really has to do with IBM versus any other number of factors. Which is true. I mean, both of those are good questions to ask.BFair question. Yeah. So if Dehomag hadn't been discovered and acquired by IBM, might it  have just remained a German company and then been found independently by Germany for its own purposes?AYeah, that's also a good question. I think given the scarcity of raw materials though in Europe at the time, the fact that IBM New York was able to swoop in and provide the paper for the punchcards,BAh yes.ALike that was a key piece of it.BMaterial support.Anot to mention, you know, they had the infrastructure to train people for these systems. They didn't even sell them. They leased them.BCapitalism at its finest,ARight. Yeah. I mean, that's a perfect bargain for a company if you canBFern, get down.AIf you can control the terms of how someone is using your hardware and also require them to use only your software. One way to help illustrate the importance of IBM to the Holocaust is to compare its implementation in two different countries, Holland and France. As you'll remember, every time Germany invaded a new country, it was time to do a census in that country so that they couldBCount them up. Weed them out.ASo they could identify the Jewish people and send them to concentration camps. When Germany took over the Netherlands, punch-card technology was already established in the country. So that country had the existing infrastructure. It already used Holleriths to do their census, as well as bill people for their utilities, inventory food, issue ration cards, all those kind of basic functions. And the Reich appointed a data nerd to run the census of the Netherlands as soon as it was taken over. And this guy's motto was, “To record is to serve.”BWow, that's so dystopian.AYeah. So he probably agreed with the Nazi ideals, but also wanted to prove himself and prove the capability of statistics. So he was very motivated for this to be a success. Although he was working against a more resistant population than average,BThat’s true.AI think it's fair to say because the Dutch people saw the census for what it was.BI know that there was a popular movement of non-Jewish Dutch citizens wearing the star.AAbsolutely. And they also registered as Jewish during the census because they wanted to stand in solidarity with their Jewish neighbors and they wanted to screw up the system in whatever way they could.BThey're braver people than Americans.AEngaging in the Holocaust is emotionallyBTaxing.ATaxing. And I find that I have to go like resupply some hope in humanity.BWhere do you find it?AWell, in stories like this.BOh.AYes, some Dutch people wore the yellow star even if they weren't Jewish. But according to the book, “it was not the outward visage of six gold points worn on the chest for all to see on the street. It was the 80 columns punched and sorted in a Hollerith facility that marked the Jews of Holland for deportation to concentration camps.” In other words, when we think of the Holocaust and the persecution of Jewish people, we think of that yellow star. And we think of, that is what singled them out. It was those behind the scenes records that made possible their mission to exterminate the Jews. The yellow stars served a different purpose, I thinkBOstracism, right?AExactly. It sent a message to the German people about who they should be rejecting. They didn't have access to the Hollerith lists, but they could see a star on somebody.BI find it interesting that you said that it was a data nerd. I mean, I have heard that nerds will rule the world someday.ABut will they rule it ethically?BYes, that's exactly what I was going to say. Is that, that's definitely true, but is that good?AYeah, I mean, think of how many self-styled nerds haunt incel forums on the internetBOr the halls of power, whether they be political, governmental, or corporate.AAnd this isn't to knock nerds. You are a paragon of nerdity.BMe? Yes.AAnd you're proud of that.BSure, yeah.AThat's what made me like you, you know, no, no. It was the Hawaiian shirts.BIt was the Hawaiian shirts?AAnd the faux leather orange throw pillows.BYeah.AThat was what told me this guy, he's a keeper. Tech comm classes and other writing classes can really help to show that data is not neutral.BYeah, absolutely. Like tech comm, you know, it selects for nerdery. And it's definitely a place where like you imagine, like the scientist focusing on the task or the engineer focusing on the design constraints. Like they are only looking at problems that are not necessarily having to do with people or with interacting with people. The tech comm professional, however, is like the bridge fromAthe liaison,BThe liaison from the siloed technical professional and an audience that to some degree is less technical than they are. That definitely places tech comm in a role where like the onus is especially on them to bring the ethics, to be the beacon of should this be done? I fight for the user.AYou know, different stakeholders are going to have different measures of success. There needs to be that voice. At the same time I don't want to imply that the humanities is going to solve these problems. Like, let's not forget, Hitler had a giant library and he appreciated art, right?BYeah.AHe also appreciated children and dogs, which horrifies me because all of that serves to humanize him.BOh my gosh. You mean he didn't, he didn't eat babies for lunch, breakfast, and midnight snacks? Hitler was still a human.AAnd I think it's important to humanize or cultural villains, not to hold them less accountable, but to shorten the distance between us and them and to recognize how part of being human is the capacity to be a monster.BYes.AAnd that is hard to accept. You want to, you want to other-ize the villains, because you don't want to think you could become one.BMm-hmm. In a sense, the logical fallacy of argumentum ad Hitlerum is a step in the wrong direction. I mean,AWhat is argument ad Hitlerum? The fallacy is inBThe fallacy is in making that connection too quickly. Making that connection without justification like, oh, Hitler loved parades. You like parades. You're like Hitler. Okay, that's, that's ridiculous. But you know, banning books, burning books, censoring books. That's a continuum.AThere's absolutely fascist stuff going onBRight now in Florida.ASo, okay. Let me see if I've got this right. You think the term argumentum ad Hitlerum is unhelpful because it suggests that any comparison to Hitler is inherently too extremeBor fallacious.AYes,BYeah, exactly.AWhen in fact, it's recognizing the similarities that we need to do, before it gets to the point of, let's murder a specific group of people.BYeah, I mean, it sort of sets up a false binary of like, well, there's an uncrossable chasm between not like Hitler and like Hitler.ABut I think it can be a fallacy. But I wouldn't call it ad Hitlerum, I would call it false analogy in that case where it's fallacious.BThere you go. There, we solved it. You're welcome, world.AYeah. And I think it also depends on are you throwing it out there to win an argument or stop a certain thread of argumentBStop the conversation.AYeah, exactly. I think that's inappropriate. I don't think it's inappropriate to look at a definition of what fascism is, see what's happening in the United States and call for action against it.BYeah. And of course, the United States isn't exceptional.AWell, right now I'm reading about Nazis in the United States during the war. Yeah, sorry, we got off on a tangent. This is why everyone hates moral philosophers. I don't know. Back to Holland. The Dutch people resisted bravely, but it was not enough to stand up against the literal machine. Of the estimated 140,000 Dutch Jews, 102,000 were murdered, a death ratio of 73%. So keep that figure in mind while we move on to France. It was a different story in France. France was more laissez-faire about their statistics and documentation in general.BIt's a French term, so I'd imagine.AYep, right? For instance, when they did take their census, they didn't ask about religion. Furthermore, the puppet government, the Vichy regime, horrible as it was, wanted to exercise some facade of independence and came up with all these exemptions for certain of their Jewish citizens, such as veterans.BHmm.AThe general attitude was less enthusiastic about Let's use machines and punch cards to account for anything and everything. The census effort after Germany invaded France was a mess. There was no consistent method. They did things by paper form, also known as Tulard files, which required up to five pages per person. Things were just not going according to the Nazi requirements. They needed Holleriths. A guy named Renee Carmille was the Comptroller General of the French Army in the Vichy administration. And he steps up, he was a punch-card believer. He even had some Hollerith machines of his own. So he promised that his machines could quote, “deliver the Jews of France” unquote. So Vichy started planning another census. And the debate was whether to stick with the trusty Tulard files or the newfangled Hollerith punchcards. Carmille was lobbying hard for his proposal, but the Tulard forms won the day, at least until the Census Office found themselves buried in forms with nothing but Remington typewriters to help process them.BRemington? The gun makers had a chance to crank out a few typewriters, huh?AWe know that IBM made machine guns. So eventually they relented and arranged for the forms and materials to be transported to Carmille’s group. While they waited for Carmille to tabulate the forms, the Nazis commenced their raids on the Jewish people using the info they had gotten from the Tulard files. But those had such out-of-date information thatBThey were raiding the wrong place.AYep. And Adolf Eichmann personally visited Paris to oversee the deportation of the Jews. Eichmann wasn't happy with the progress they were making or lack thereof. They were still waiting for Carmille’s lists. And Carmille had the only copy of the card file. Meanwhile, Germany was losing battles in North Africa. This was 1942, 43. Somehow, an organized French Resistance Army had cropped up and valiantly kept the Germans at bay in North Africa. Where did they come from? It turns out that Carmille was a secret agent. He had used his Holleriths to help organize this army. Using the punch cards, he was able to track people's professions and military specialties in order to organize and mobilize them quickly. And he never punched column 11, asking for Jewish identity. Supposedly he tampered with the Holleriths to disable the ability to even track that. Carmille was caught,BOh shit.ATortured at the hands of the Butcher of Lyon, Klaus Barbie. But he gave up no names and ultimately died in a concentration camp. Let's compare the numbers. Estimated 73% of Dutch Jews died. In France it was approximately 25%.BWow. Yeah, that's a big difference. To be fair, there is a cultural difference between France and Belgium? The Netherlands?AHolland, Netherlands. Yeah.BNetherlands.AWhat's the correct term? What do they like to call their country?BI think that the Netherlands and Belgium were, well, Belgium got its independence from. You'll have to fact check.AYeah, well,Bthat's what I'm getting around to.  I don't know.AAh, you admitted it. [The correct term for the country is The Netherlands. Holland describes the two most popular provinces within the Netherlands, which has 12 provinces total. However, Holland is often used to stand in for the whole of the Netherlands, in a type of synecdoche.]BI'm currently reading through kind of a history of the late 1800s of Europe and France in particular, you know, they were the first European country to have their monarchy dissolved. The French Revolution was in 1789 before it was cool. It kind of relapsed with various attempts to reestablish a monarchy or a dictatorship, an emperor in France. During that whole time, getting resistance groups organized, it was like a joke. It was like a sad, bad joke because there were all of these different groups that were on the political left that wanted an end to whatever reactionary regime was in place at the time, but they had infighting and wouldn't work together. I imagine that Holland didn't have that fractious, sectarian kind of a system. Like they didn't have as many splinter groups in their society. The more communal, like, you know, we will stand by our Jewish neighbors and wear this yellow star.ABut you'd think that that attitude would ultimately work against the Nazi’s effortsBTrue.AHere's the thing. We can't know what a difference Renee Carmille made. There are a multitude of factors that explain the different outcomes for these two separate countries. But you cannot deny that what he did was heroic.BYes. What he did was heroic and he personally, individually, I'm sure that he saved thousands upon thousands of Jewish lives in France.AYes, he not only foiled the Nazis efforts, he actively worked against them. And it's one of those things you can't measure the impact. But the more I research about World War II, the more I realize it's not down to one hero. Like it's not just you know General Patton or Eisenhower or Churchill.BIt was a time for the valiant.AIt's a combination of actions by individuals and choices by individuals that in the moment, in their little corner of the universe, might not have felt impactful. But in combination with others’ actions, made a difference.BMm-hmm.ASo I suggest we look to those people as role models for our kids. Don't have your kid do a book report on Thomas Watson. Have them research Rene Carmille or Victoria Hall. [Her name is Virginia Hall, not Victoria Hall. My bad.]BThe unsung heroes of World War Two.AYes. She was an SOE spy. Special Operations Executives. That was sort of the guerrilla warfare spy group that Churchill created to kind of sneak into, to parachute into France and do sabotage and organize resistance. Victoria Hall had a wooden leg. She was a woman. Those were things that blocked her from certain positions in society. And yet she gave her entire life to protecting the enemies of the Nazis and coordinating military actions against them. And she didn't look for glory. But I tell you what, she had to deal with a lot of men who wanted to be James Bond and wanted to be a spy because it was sexy but they didn't put in the work. And they didn't put in the care and the cautionBAnd it cost lives.AYes. I bring up the story of Carmille also because he's been called the first ethical hacker. Thinking, you know, thinking back to what we were saying about technical people. How it can sometimes be a challenge to look beyond the immediate consequences of their actions or to think that the work I do in this cubicle or in this lab or what have you is, it's just science or it's just numbers and thereby distance themselves from potential human consequences of the technologies that they're developing. I think this is a story that can show the power of a single technology to do harm and also when in the right hands to counteract that harm.BYeah, holler at the machines were definitely used to run the Holocaust. But car mile figured out a way to use a hollow Earth machine to defeat the Nazis in North Africa.AI don't want to fall into the trap of saying any technology is simply a tool. It can be used for good or for bad. To some extent that's true. But technologies can certainly be designed to lend themselves better to bad versus good consequences, for instance. And so that's something we need to be alert to as well. Is that it's, it's not just how the machine, how the technology is used, but how it's developed and for what purposes and with what capabilities?BYeah. Definitely.ABecause I think it's very fair to say that the technology that was used to I don't want to say innocuously because it wasn't innocuous. But the technology that was used to conduct the 1940 census in America, was as good as it was because it had been honed in a different context for a different purpose,BChilling.AYes. And we know that the results of the census were used to put Japanese-Americans into internment camps. Which you'd think, you'd think we'd learn a lesson from the enemy.BJust learned the wrong one.AYeah. And that should cause us to question the narrative of progress as an inherent good.BRight. It's the myth of progress, even.AYeah, and I'm sure many of my colleagues listening will have instantly connected the story of IBM and the Holocaust to Stephen Katz’s classic article, The Ethic of Expediency, which for those who aren't familiar with it, Katz opens with an example of technical communication that by all accounts is pretty much doing the job that tech comm needs to do, or it conveys technical details, it's formatted properly as a memo, it has precise specifications. And then you discover that it's a memo discussing improvements to a mobile gassing unit.BYeah.AAnd then you read it through a new lens. You realize that words like “merchandise” are used to describe human beings. And you realize that genocide is being discussed dispassionately, technically, neutrally. I know for me in graduate school, that article was a turning point in me recognizing the ethical implications of technical communication, that it's not enough to ask if something is effective, you have to ask, is it ethical? You have to ask who is this for? Who does it harm? Who might it harm? Another thing that's notable about that, the euphemisms, in the memo.BThat's a choice.AIt makes you wonder were they trying to distance themselves from the horrors that they were carrying out? Or was it for posterity so that the strategic ambiguity would help them skirt accountability. I don’t know. But that's another lesson for technical and business communication. And it's a lesson, it's a line that Watson learned how to walk very well. As I was reading IBM in the Holocaust and reading about like, wow, the Germans were just obsessed with surveillance and tracking and sorting and ranking and categorizing. And yet the people at the top don't want that transparency turned on themselves.BThey never do.ASo I want to show you a picture and tell me what you see happening in it.BYou vill show me picture.AOkay. Describe what you see here. This is an ad for Dehomag.BAh. I see a giant eyeball in the sky. Looking down on, it looks like a, it's probably a punch card, but it looks kind of like an apartment building behind a factory with a big old smokestack. And so it says in German “oversight with Hollerith”, lochkarten? I don't know what that is.AHere. It says in the caption. “See everything with Hollerith punchcards.”BOh.AWhat's the what's the message here?BOversight is good.ASurveillance.BUh-huh. Yeah. I mean, it could just be that it's printed in black and white, but I imagine that it looks pretty Orwellian in whatever color as well.AYeah. There's absolutely a power imbalance in who gets surveilled and who is privileged enough not to. And I think that needs to be accounted for anytime you hear somebody saying more data is better. And then one more connection to tech comm. As I was reading IBM and the Holocaust, it occurred to me that there's a parallel here with Katz's work in that he's talking to or he's using this written memo as an example of how technical communication isn't inherently good or neutral. And I think in this case, you can point to, you could almost call it a participatory design process. Because of how each punch card was so customized to a particular purpose and a particular user. And that by all accounts from, from a superficial glance at the situation would be an example of good UX practice. That's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to involve the people who will ultimately use your product and capture their needs andBCapture.AIt's not enough to stop there. If the victims of the Holocaust were included in this design process, it wouldn't exist to begin with. Do you see what I'm saying? Let me read a little bit from the book here. “None of Germany's statistical programs came easy. All of them required ongoing technical innovation. Every project required specific customized applications with Dehomag engineers carefully devising a column and corresponding hole to carry the intended and corresponding hole to carry the intended information. Every order was different. Each set was meticulously designed, not only for the singular client, but for the client's specific assignments. The design work was not a rote procedure, but an intense collaboration. It began with a protracted investigation of the precise data needs of the project, as well as the people, items or services being tabulated. This required IBM subsidiary field engineers to undertake invasive studies often on-site. So hearing about that process without context, you would say, Yeah. That's what a good UX designer does. That's what a good engineer does. That's what a good technical communicator does, isBSupport your product.ALearn about your audience. Anticipate your client's needs. And I say this to make clear that participatory design in and of itself doesn't necessarily guard againstBBad participation?AI don't want to say the word evil, that's too cliche.BSo it doesn't guard againstAharm, we’ll say. Who are you participating with? To what ends? Who will be affected? Whether or not your client, whether or not they're the one using the product or paying you for the work.BYeah.AThat looks like a dick. Sorry. It wasn’t on purpose.BNo? Oh, okay.AI doodle.BYou doodle.AI doodle on my notes while we talk and that was accidental.BYeah. And in a sense like it makes sense because the we don't want mob justice either, because that's participatory. But it doesn't mean that it's going to be good.AYeah, participatory design. Deep embedded field research and observation and interviews is not inherently socially just.BTrue.ASo what does that mean for teachers? For people doing UX? What takeaways do we want to leave our listeners with? I don't want to say don't do participatory design, right?BSo for practitioners of UX, I would say it may not be popular to say every time you get involved with a project that you should have been involved earlier. But do it. Ideally, every project, every, every thing that's supposed to have a great impact should start with an ethical study. Academia has the IRB step as like the gatekeeper for doing research. Industry no, nothing.AI'm surely there's some regulations to keep things in check.BWell, yeah, the gatekeeper is whether a manager thinks the expense can be justified. Pretty much. Occasionally someone will think to involve legal in the discussion. But, you know, I have a feeling that people who are in legal departments for corporations probably feel like a lot of UX designers who are brought in three days before launch to get their blessing Instead of to get their input and direction.AYeah. It doesn't matter how closely you collaborate with your client if the end result is to better surveil, or locate or control people who don't have a say in the product. So what do you think? I'm trying to I'm trying to wrap up.BYeah.AWhat do you think? I'm surprised that IBM has managed to keep its reputation so untarnished given this history.BNo kidding.AI'm sure we use and benefit from IBM products too. So it's not simply a matter of boycotting it. ButBThey were probably one of the early adopters of the idea of brand renovation. I don't know if that's the right term even but it’s the only way I can put words to it.AI don't mean to say that IBM is the one and only bad guy.BOh no.AThat was another one of the annoying critical reviews I read on Amazon is, why are you singling out IBM? If you do that, then you have to call out all these other companies that were complicit. And it's like,BSo let's do it. Call them all out.AYeah. Like why not do a deep dive on one if it means that we can better recognize moves that make this possible?BI know that it isn't exactly the same thing, I heard a podcast about denialism and how its roots go back further than tobacco. Its roots,ACorporate denialism?BYes. Corporate denialism.ALike saying we’re not part of the problem or we didn't do this?BYeah, that sort of thing. It goes back, in fact to electric companies. In almost all places they have what's called a natural monopoly. And so they kind of don't have to really compete because you can't just pick another electric company to give you your power. They fought hard against rural electrification because they didn't want to run all of those transmission lines. They wanted to power cities, they didn't want to power farms. They basically created studies to show that this wouldn't be feasible or that farmers don't even want electricity.AOh, use data and science to support their preconceived preference?BYeah. So they, when tobacco’s turn came, there was a rule book.ATemplate.BThere was a template already. And I imagine that IBM was just keeping it warm from, from the electric companies on to big tobacco. Oh no, no, no, we weren't, We didn't really like what Hitler was doing. I mean, it wasn't that bad. So the whole deny delay minimize all of the strategies used for when your business model actively creates harm.AWell, thanks for listening.BYes. Until next time.AIt was a challenge to read this book and not constantly report what I was learning because I didn't, because I wanted to make sure we talked about it on the podcast.BOh, it wasn't out of respect for me reading my own book that you held back, it was because you wanted to have something to hit me with that I hadn't heard before.AYeah. Get a more genuine reaction. It's not like you don't interrupt my reading to show me your meme of the day.BOh, come on. You get plenty of cute animal videos too.AYeah. That makes it all worth it.BWhen it comes down to it, cute animals, that’s what makes it all worth it.

March 23, 2023

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 1

Nazi Germany systematically identified, relocated, and murdered millions of Jewish people during the Holocaust. But how were they able to kill so many so efficiently? IBM equipment played a key role. Meanwhile, IBM CEO Thomas J. Watson got rich off of Nazi Germany and strategically escaped scrutiny for his collaboration. In this episode, drawing on Edwin Black's book IBM and the Holocaust, Abi explains how intertwined IBM and Nazi Germany were by tracing their paths through the Hitler years. Sources and further reading Black, E. (2001). IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and America’s Most Powerful Corporation. Dialog press. Transcript BHi, this is TC talk.AI'm Abi.Band I'm Benton.AI teach technical communicationBand I don't.ABut you're married to me so you get to hear all about it.BI do.AFor new listeners. Let's start with a brief definition of technical communication. I see technical communication as communication, whether verbal, visual, etc. that helps somebody make a decision or perform some action. The most effective tech comm is highly attuned to its audience and the audience's knowledge, their values, and so on.BThat sounds good to me.ANow, effective tech comm isn't inherently good or ethical, as we will get further into in this episode. Today we're going to talk about the book IBM and the Holocaust by Edwin Black. It was written in 2001. And this is another of those books that I did not plan to talk about for this podcast. But once I started reading it, I knew there are multifarious connections. Is that a word?BMultiply nefarious?AWell, multifarious and nefarious, certainly in this case. Myriad.BMany.ALanguage. Many. Thank you. It was getting some buzz on Twitter on Holocaust Remembrance Day in January, and I knew I had to pick it up.BWhat day in January is that?A27th.BOkay.ABecause I'm interested in history generally. But we'll certainly get to the implications for tech comm. I might just pull a Peter Jackson with this one. It's a very long and dense book. I may need to extend it into multiple episodes. We'll have to see how efficiently we can get through this.BWe'll see what the CGI budget for this one is going to be then.AWell, in fact, I don't think any of the episodes we've done this season have been planned like very far in advance. And I did actually go into the fall with a list of topics I wanted to do. And then other stuff just came up and it seemed more interesting at the time. But I still wanna do those topics. Okay, Benton, What if I told you that there was a man whose loyalists called him The Leader, assembled and sang celebratory songs about him. And who was instrumental in the efficient mass murder of millions of people. Who am I talking about?BThat sure sounds like Hitler to me.AI'm talking about Thomas J. Watson, the CEO of IBM, International Business Machines. Were you aware of this? Like what is your kind of background understanding of what IBM is or what or who Thomas Watson was?BI did know that IBM has existed for a lot longer than electronics. Well, as we know them today.AHence, the machines in its title.BMachines, yes.AVersus computers.B I know that they were instrumental in the US Census going from a process of several months of collating data before the punch card reader was used to being like a matter of weeks, maybe?AYou're talking about the American Census.BThe American Census.ANo it took years actually to compile the data before IBM came on the scene.BOkay. It was a substantial reduction, that much I knew. So being a kid growing up in the '90s in an Apple computer home IBM was known as Big blue. They were the evil empire. They were they were the bad guys in computers.AFor real?BYes.AWhere did this notion come from?BBecause they were the other team.AWhat about Microsoft? Where were they?BWell, they were on that team.AOh, Apple versus everyone else?BYes. I admit it. I was a techno-jingoist when I was a kid.AWell, you weren't wrong. I mean, I wouldn't say Apple is innocent.BThey're not innocent and they never were.AYeah. Okay. What about Watson? Do you remember the Watson supercomputer?BWas this Jeopardy or was this chess?AIt may have been both. What I remember of it is that it went up against my childhood hero Ken Jennings.BAh. So definitely Jeopardy.ARight. You know, it was created by IBM, named after its founder. Obviously,BI thought it may have been named after Sherlock’s colleague, Dr. Watson. Or maybe there's the Watson Crick model of DNA.AIt was indeed named after Thomas Watson. I just want to start by saying, I think this book offers a good lesson in who we choose to lionize. Who are our heroes? Even before I got very deep into this book, I did a quick Google search, like who is this Watson guy? And in some of the top results, there were articles like Encyclopedia Britannica and whatnot. Based on what I read there, there was zero reference to his dealings with Nazi Germany.BOh.AAnd he was only presented as one of America's best-known businessmen. Again, I wasn't looking deeply. It's not some hidden secret that IBM worked with Nazi Germany. But any elementary school kid trying to write a report on this guy would only come up with praise of him. And that speaks to Americans’, I think, tendency to respect rich people simply on the basis of they’re rich.BYup.AThe facade is starting to slip.BThe resistance to that. That general trend is definitely getting more pronounced and widespread. Thank goodness.AYeah. Elon is not doing himself any favors with his antics. Jeff Bezos, I can't think of a single person who looks up to the guy,BDr. Evil with his giant phallus rocket.ABut as this book shows, it's actually dangerous to unquestioningly respect someone even if they are a quote, unquote good businessman. Because in a capitalist society, being a good businessman means you make money. Let's get into the overlap between IBM and Nazi Germany. And as Edwin black argues, IBM added the Blitz to blitzkrieg. And the author is very clear about this. Hitler still would have murdered the Jews without help from IBM. But there is no way he could have done it quite as efficiently. Like any rhetorician, I like to get the context for what I read. What was the reaction when it came out? How are people reacting to it now? And it was generally well received thanks in part to its just absolute trove of documentation. So what Black did with this book is he pieced together this collaboration that they were very strategic about keeping hidden, as seen in all of the plausible deniability built into their correspondence and in how Watson's public PR stunts failed to align with his private decision-making. So in my search for context, I made the mistake of reading Amazon reviews.BAs we sometimes do.AThe critical ones were along the lines of this book failed to convince me that Watson was a genocidal maniac. Of course he wanted to sell his product. That's what companies do, make money. I'm just like, do you see the problem here? The value of capitalism and money-making is so deeply embedded that it seems like an obvious excuse for aiding and abetting fucking genocide. Right?BMm-hmm.AI mean, obviously not everyone thinks this way, but I don't know, the tone of that comment gives us a window into how some people react to this. So, sure, Watson may not have been a genocidal maniac like Hitler. But Watson was not against it enough for it to matter.BYeah.AAnd in my mind, whether you're motivated by a deep and abiding hatred based on lies or greed, the end result is the same, right? And these are the people who fly under the radar because they're not spouting the overtly racist stuff. But again, if you enabled the Reich, what does it matter? The swastika only represented a dollar sign to Watson.BAlso, again, getting back to capitalism, IBM, their leadership had a financial obligation to obfuscate the truth.AHow so?BWell, a corporation exists for the profit of shareholders.ASo like I said, I want to show how intertwined IBM and Nazi Germany were by tracing their paths through the Hitler years. If you want the depth, I do highly recommend the book, but I don't think you'll need to read the book to get the important lessons out of it. Which like I said, might be a future episode. Okay, background on Thomas Watson. So he worked for the National cash register company, NCR. He was a devious salesman, drove out any competition. NCR’s quote, “war tactics were limitless. Bribes, knockoff machines at predatory prices, threats of litigation and even smashed store windows were alleged.” So in 1912, Watson and other NCR execs were found guilty of criminal conspiracy. And I'm going to tell a story because it perfectly illustrates Watson's tactics for shirking accountability that he will fully deploy at IBM.BHm.AThe same spring that Watson and friends were being investigated, there was massive flooding in town. This was in Ohio. 90,000 people were displaced. Quote, “NCR organized an immense emergency relief effort.” They converted their factories to be able to produce rowboats. They opened up their facilities for hospital patients. They offered food, water, organized repairs of the railroads, so on and so forth. They became heroes. They used that hero status to get others to push for pardons for them. Eventually Watson's attorneys got him off the hook for a technicality. He learned two lessons from this event. Number one, you can avoid accountability by becoming indispensable. Number two, don't put everything in writing. The evidence for the jury to convict him was overwhelming. And he wouldn't make that mistake again. Watson took charge of IBM in 1922. And IBM acquired Dehomag, short for in German, German Hollerith Machine Company. What's a Hollerith machine? It was a type of early computing device that sorted punchcards for various purposes. This was invented in the late 1800s by an IBM worker, a German immigrant, named Herman Hollerith, who devised the machine while working for the US Census Bureau. Dehomag may as well have been called IBM Germany. But keeping IBM out of the company name helped him stay under the radar as the public started scrutinizing Germany, as Hitler rose to power. And by this point, IBM had already made a fortune off Germany even in the midst of the Great Depression in the United States. So Watson was sneaky in the way that he reported his profits.BNo.AIn fact, much of the book just covers his shady business dealings and his ongoing fight over finances with Willie Heidinger, the enthusiastic Nazi who owned Dehomag at the time IBM acquired it. I won't touch on that here because I don't have a business or legal background and frankly, I wasn't able to follow it very well. But the upshot is that Watson was greedy and cunning throughout all of this, and he micro-managed Dehomag to ensure he could squeeze as much profit out of it as possible and to conveniently obscure to the public and the US government his close relationship with Nazi Germany.BConvenient.AAlright, what's special about 1933 in Germany?BIs that when Hitler was elected?AI believe it was when he was appointed Chancellor.BChancellor.Aby President Hindenburg. Hitler came to power and it was no secret that his goal was to eliminate the Jewish people. This was one aspect of his platform that he never wavered on. You know, his Mein Kampf is full of the ravings of a racist madman. I say that to preempt any excuses like, no one could have known.BMaybe not everyone took him seriously at the time.AThe 1920s, he had that failed Beer Hall Putsch andBThat put him in prison when he wrote Mein Kampf.ARight. And Hitler learned from that experience that the way to get to power is through legitimate means. Or at least the appearance of legitimacy. After 1929, the stock market crash in the United States, America was like, Oh hey, pay those loans back. It was a financial crisis that prompted people to be like, oh, Hitler knows what he's talking about. But the anti-Semitism was already deeply baked in to culture at that time. Again, not something that just emerged out of thin air. Right away, Hitler started implementing laws that disenfranchised the Jews. The persecution ramped up over the years, starting with pushing them out of their workplaces, stealing their assets, moving them into ghettos, and ultimately sending them to concentration camps for either quote “extermination by labor,” unquote, or to be gassed.BI know that one of the, one of the camps had the slogan over its gate. Work makes free.AThat sounds familiar.BBecause it will free you from your earthly body. Enough work.AYeah. And this is a question I had always wondered about before I started really digging into the history of World War Two. How did Hitler know who all the Jewish people were, right? Because by that point, many were very assimilated. Many had even converted to ChristianityBYeah.ALikely nudged by the racism against them.BPolitical racism and individual racism.ARight. But I always wondered, how do you pick them out? Especially if you're defining Jewish as both those who practiced Judaism and those who were Jewish by blood, even by a small portion. The Nuremberg Laws of 1935 kind of officialized this broad definition of Jewish. So how could you possibly identify them without collecting and cross-referencing data from multiple censuses, church record books, and other documentation? The answer, Hollerith machines. I'm going to give you an example of one function of the Hollerith machines just to illustrate how it worked. But it was used for many, many different purposes. And Nazi Germany was obsessed with documenting and tracking.BOh, yeah.AUm, so they also did a horse census. They did a cow census, they did a vehicle census, they did a fucking butter census.BNot only genocide. Hashtag, not all Hollerith machines.AOh my gosh. Okay, so here's an example of how a Hollerith machine helps to run the activities of a concentration camp. Black writes, “prisoners were identified by descriptive Hollerith cards, each with columns, with punched holes detailing nationality, date of birth, marital status, et cetera.” So with a spreadsheet you can filter, you can sort, you can list. But before computers existed, there was no way to do that efficiently. But if every person has their own punch card, then you can set your Hollerith to say, alright, spit out all the Jewish people who are men ages 18 to 24 or what have you. And then you send the punch cards through.BSay you've got a need for strong backs to do hard labor.ARight. Hole 3 signified homosexual. Hole 9 signified anti-social. Eight, Jew. And then there was also a code for reason for departure.BDeparture?AFrom the camp.BOh.ATwo was transfer. Suicide was 5, special handling was 6.BWhat the hell kinda thing is that?AIt was commonly understood to be extermination either in a gas chamber, by hanging or by gunshot.BSpecial handling.AYep. Does it make sense in general you know what Hollerith machines were able to make possible?BMm-hmm.AOkay. And they were used toBYou got a stack of cards. Every person is a database entry. Yeah. And when you pull their card, you call them, they get in line and they perform whatever task they were called for.AYeah. Right away Hitler was like, alright, we're gonna do a census. We're going to use the Holleriths. Of course they tracked religion. And it wasn't enough to just count the Jewish people. They needed to know, I shouldn't say needed, they wanted to know exactly who they were. One statistician at the time said “In using statistics, the government now has the roadmap to switch from knowledge to deeds.”  BThere's a saying in, in business. I think it's in business that you can't control what you can't measure. Be careful what you measureAYesBbecause you'll start to think that it's important.AOh my gosh. Yeah. Well, I mean, we'll talk about this more. I think there's definitely connections here to big data of today. So I just want to call attention here to how Hitler marshaled these institutions of science, statistics towards his racist ends. They sort of borrowed the credibility of science to invent a pseudoscientific branch of race science.BMm-hmm.AAnd I think that's a move that we need to be alert to. That happened certainly in the United States, as we discussed in our episode about racist medical experimentation.BMm-hmm.AAnd then, I want you to read this quote. I want you to read this quote from Willy Heidinger.B“The physician examines the human body and determines whether all organs are working to the benefit of the entire organism. We, Dehomag, are very much like the physician in that we dissect cell by cell, the German cultural body. We report every individual characteristic on a little card. These are not dead cards. Quite to the contrary. They prove later on that they come to life when the cards are sorted at a rate of 25,000/h. Our nation's capital P physician, Adolf Hitler, can take corrective procedures to correct the sick circumstances. Our characteristics are deeply rooted in our race. Therefore, we must cherish them like a holy shrine, which we will and we must keep pure.”AWhat do you think?BThat is some grade a use of persuasive rhetoric. Not that I'm persuaded, but he uses the positive. A physician. Physicians are there to help, we’re like physicians. We're here to helpADehumanizes.BIt is not a human, it is a cell that may be sick.AIt's a tumor.BYes.AThat's going to harm the rest of the body if it's not excised.B“We must poison the tumor.”AAnd the punch cards are inextricable from this mission, right?BRight.AOkay. In 1935, one of the things that Roosevelt is best known for, Social Security Act.BYes, the New Deal.Awhich required tracking 30 million people. Guess who got the contract?BIBM.AAccording to Black, “Watson's people boasted that his was the biggest accounting operation of all time.” But actually it was the second biggest. The dress rehearsal had already taken place in Germany. I mention this to show how IBM was starting to become essential to the operations of the US government as well, right? Watson was elected chairman of the International Chamber of Commerce.BI imagine that meets in New York?AWell, that year the conference was in Paris. But once Watson was in charge, guess where he announced the next conference would be?BIt will be in Berlin.AYes. Meanwhile, IBM was becoming more essential in Germany. And just to clarify, in case you think that Germany could have done this without Watson. They did supply the punchcards. Billions a year.BGeez.ABecause of trade sanctions and whatnot at that time, Germany had a hard time acquiring the raw materials it needed and paper was in short supply. So they relied heavily upon IBM New York at this point. In 1937 was the International Chamber of Commerce meeting in Berlin. And at this meeting, Watson received Hitler's medal, Merit Cross of the German Eagle. This was in honor of Watson's vocal support for Germany, for helping keep a trade route open, for providing the technology that enabled the rounding up of the Jews, for the credibility he granted to Germany due to being quote, America's businessmen and a consultant to Roosevelt. At this meeting, there were lavish dinner parties. He was entertained by Joseph and Magda Goebbels. This was quite audacious of Watson because at this time there were boycotts, protests, public outcry against Hitler's regime. So again, already, the world was becoming wise to Hitler's dangerousness.BWary, at least.AWatson really was instrumental for Germany at this point because he went out of his way to defend them. Even if in vague terms. And his high-status with Roosevelt gave an implicit green-light to their activities.BBeing a publicly viewed as successful businessmen, that alone will get you access to politicians, but donations, they definitely put your name at the top of the list.AWatson donated large sums to Roosevelt's campaign.BYeah, and this kind of gets to the idea also that certainly Roosevelt was not a saint. ANo.BObviously under Roosevelt's watch, we turned away boats of Jewish refugees from Germany. Said, Go back.AYes. 1938 Hitler starts to expand. Not that way,BSorry. I couldn't help it.AStarts to expand Germany, not himself. Benton just did a gesture of blowing up like a balloon. Watson visits Germany again earlier in the year. He argued passionately for Germany's demands, according to Black, “that the world redistribute its raw materials and lower so-called trade barriers as the path to peace. Even as the mass media regularly published explanations that Germany desperately only needed those raw materials to arm its war machine.”BWell, there didn't need to be war if nobody fought back. Eye roll.AAnd Watson praised the rising standard of living in Europe even as the Jews were being dispossessed. I have to read you this quote from Watson. “You know, you can cooperate with the man without believing in everything he says and does.” And I point out his calls for world peace because of how disingenuous they were. And that's another thing we need to be alert to is that if the price of peace is eliminating an entire race of people,BSubjugation.Ait's not worth it. Germany continues to expand, invades Czechoslovakia. Every time Germany claimed more land, it had to buy more Holleriths and implement more censuses so that they could immediately identify and round up the Jews living there. Jewish people had been emigrating from Germany for years at that point. Because of the policies that dispossessed them.BThey saw they saw it coming. So they moved to France or moved to Czechoslovakia.AYep.BIf I get out of these borders, I'll be safe.ABut then Germany would just catch up to them. November 10, 1938. This was a turning point. Kristallnacht. Tell me what you know about it.BIt was the night of the broken glass. From my understanding, this is when groups of political hooligans, brown shirts, Nazis, whatever you want to call them, went around and broke the store windows of Jewish businesses.AThere were beatings in the street. Synagogues burnt down. It was a very vocal, not vocal, but a very obvious threat, sort of a signal, that the flood gates have opened.BThe leash is off?AYes. The public outcry outside of Germany continued. US continued boycotting German companies. IBM was lucky that it didn't have IBM in the name of its German subsidiary. And they were lucky that they were only exporting to Germany, not importing from Germany. So that allowed it to stay under the radar. But by this point, Watson had had a very public relationship with Germany. I mean, he got a medal from Hitler. And so he finds himself in a sticky situation, fully of his own making, I might add. He really didn't want to tell off Germany, but there was such ill will against Germany at that point that from a PR standpoint, he just couldn't keep silent. So he sent a letter addressed to his Excellency, Hitler, asking him to consider the golden rule in how he handled minorities. By all accounts, a very mild critique. Even so, this letter somehow got lost, was mysteriously misaddressed. Watson's really trying to play both sides here. 1939, International Chamber of Congress is held in Copenhagen. During Watson’s speech, he says, “We regret that there are unsatisfactory political and economic conditions in the world today, with the great difference of opinion existing among many countries. But differences of opinion freely discussed and fairly disposed of resultant mutual benefit and increased happiness to all concerned.” And this, sorry, I have feelings.BYou have, you have feelings, huh.AI mean, it reminds me of people saying Let's just all get along. There's so much polarization and hate from both sides. And it's like when one side is aiming to dehumanize a specific group of people. Again, so-called peace is not worth it.BYeah. The hate is not symmetric. It's not equal in magnitude or in type. One side hates what the other is doing. The other side hates what this side is.AYes. And you know, it raises the question. Sure. Maybe there's anger on both sides, but whose hatred is actually harming human lives?BExactly.AHitler invades Poland, bam, World War II begins. They start another census.BOnce Hitler invades Poland, the Soviet Union doesn't want to miss out.ARight. They strike a deal.BWell, they strike a deal. They said that you can invade Poland. And we can invade Poland, but we will not fight each other once we, once our lines meet,ARight.BPoor Poland.AI know, right?BIt's a plane, it’s a geological plane. Nothing to hide behind. you, No, no mountains to fortify, just perfect for tanks.AYeah. As I mentioned before, they would relocate the Jews into ghettos. They would use Hollerith machines to keep track and know exactly how many Jews were under their jurisdiction and how much nutrition to allocate. Such as 184 calories per person per day,BOh wow, that's, missed a zero there.AExactly. Again, no, no secret what the end goal is here. So Watson still in a sticky situation in 1940. He's trying to create more distance between himself and IBM Germany.BAt this point, America is not in the war.Acorrect, but Britain. Let's see. It was in 1940 that Germany invades Norway, Holland, and Belgium. When the Nazis blitzkrieged France, they were on meth.BWowAThanks to whatever documentary taught me this, butBMeth NazisAIt blew my mind. It's like, why are these Nazis never stopping to rest?BShall go until we get to Spain, ya.ASo Watson, he didn't want to offend Germany, but he didn't want to look complicit and risk his hero status in the United States. So he tried to shirk the decision of what to do with this medal. He even asked the Secretary of State if they wanted him to return the medal so he could throw them under the bus. And they were like, I refuse to comment on this.BIn 1940, yeah. The US, they were tip toeing.AYeah. Despite Watson's friends in high places, there was definitely suspicion. Even the FBI started nosing around IBM.BOh, man.AAnd Watson appeared to cooperate by throwing his German workers under the bus and pretending like, oh, we have no tolerance for this. And then he did eventually give the medal back, publicly, of course. The Nazis were pissed. Dehomag started revolting. Dehomag was starting to make plans to make their own equipment and threatened Watson with that possibility. But again, they were just too enmeshed basically.BI'm sure there were patents and other binding international business reasons that they weren't allowed.AWatson is, has lost his biggest supporters in Germany, but no worries. There's another country he can get rich off of, the United States. Because in 1940, he could sense things were building up to them joining the war. IBM started making machine guns.BWow, international business machine guns.AThey acquired a munitions company or converted a factory or something. They started doing military research for the US. You know, Holleriths were even used at Bletchley Park.BThat is where they cracked the Enigma machine.AIBM was essentially aiding both sides in encoding and decoding their intelligence.BWhich is the perfect place for a war materiel supplier to be.AAnd over the course of the war, IBM became a precious war asset to the United States,BToo big to fail, huh?AAnd IBM supplied the equipment needed to conduct the 1940 census in the United States. There was some reluctance about this and the invasive questions in the census. Eleanor Roosevelt even took to the radio to call the census “the greatest assemblage of facts ever collected by any people about the things that affect their welfare.” Remember this for later. US government is starting to crack down even more. US Treasury prohibits transactions with the enemy. So Watson found labyrinthine ways around it. He did a lot of his communication through neutral countries, like Switzerland. He wasn't micro-managing anymore. He opted not to know.BStrategic ignoranceAPrecisely, but, and this is wild to me. He continued communications with Europe under the cover of the US government. Remember, he'd been cultivating contacts for years. He had friends in the State Department or at least folks who wouldn't dare turned down the man responsible for making social security, the census, and other government functions happen. Meanwhile, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, America joins the war.BEnd of 1941. And then America gets to let its racist flag fly.AYeah. Roosevelt orders Japanese people in the United States into internment camps.BAnd they surrender all assets.AHow did the government find them so quickly? Remember the census of 1940.B1940, wow, that's handy.A1942. The Nazis hold the Wannsee Conference where Nazi officials planned out how to get all the Jewish people in their conquered territories expeditiously to the gas chambersBThis was in a movie I saw.Awhere the final solution was unveiledBto the top leadership of people who would be involved in making it happen.AYeah. And again, to be clear, this wasn't an ideological escalation on the part of Hitler. This was always where he wanted to end up. He just lacked the infrastructure for it. So the Nazis begin their extermination plan in earnest. There was IBM equipment at every concentration camp. Holleriths and punch cards were used to assign work, track transfers, ID the prisoners. Quote, “The third Reich’s transition from the blind persecution of a general population to the destruction of individuals had come full circle. In genocide, Jews lost their identity. Now every corpse comprised a mere component in a far larger statistical set, adding up to total annihilation.”BThey had numbers tattooed on them, didn't they?AYeah.BAnd I bet those numbers corresponded with the punch card.AYeah. Hollerith numbers.BWow.ASo skipping ahead to 1945 when the war ends in Europe. IBM New York, writes Black, “was able to recapture its problematic but valuable German subsidiary, recover its machines”BRecapture?A“and assimilate all the profits.” And Watson's, you know, things are going pretty well for him, but he's antsy because war crimes trials are starting to be set up. IBM very much wanted to be excluded. What do you do? You become indispensable. One of the ways that he became valuable to the United States was the US strategic bombing survey. Are you familiar with that?BNo.AIts goal was to study the effects of the bombings on Germany, especially the effects on citizen morale. And they wanted that data to plan their bombing campaign against Japan.BSo this was a pro carpet bombing.AThe Nuremberg Trials began. One of the challenges was that all the evidence needed to be translated into French, Russian, German, English. But one company volunteered to do it free of charge.BI bet one company did.AYep. Thanks. IBM. I think this is a good time to pause. I have more that I want to talk about. But I think at this point it's safe to say the war is over. IBM is intact. Watson is scrooge McDuck, swimming in his gold. And millions of people have died, whether in battle or murdered in concentration camps or whatever other ugly means the Nazis used. I'll close with this quote from IBM and the Holocaust. “What seemingly magical scheduling process could have allowed millions of Nazi victims to step onto train platforms, travel two or three days by rail, and then step onto a ramp at Auschwitz or Treblinka, and within an hour be marched into gas chambers hour after hour, day after day, timetable after timetable? Like clockwork and always with blitzkrieg efficiency.”BHuh.AI am cognizant of the fact that a number, a statistic, doesn't convey the tragedy of each individual being dehumanized and murdered. 6 million is one of those numbers that you can't wrap your head around. So I actually, I googled how many seconds or how, how long is 1 million seconds. It was like ten or 11 days.B11 days.ASo multiply that by six, you've got what, two months?BMore than two months.ASo if every life is represented by a single second going non-stop, every second of every day for over two months, that would equal 6 million. That's a crude comparison. But just as a as a way of trying to wrap your head around the scope of it. So at this point, anticipating potential objection. How do we know that IBM made that much of a difference, right? Clearly, Hitler would've pursued this regardless of the support of IBM. So that's what I'm going to talk about next by explaining how the use of Hollerith machines differed from country to country and how that affected the results.BOkay.AThis is a riveting story. So you'll want to tune in.

March 2, 2023

BONUS: All the jokes we couldn’t fit in the last episode

More jokes, ChatGPT-generated and otherwise, cut from the recording for the "AI is a joke" episode Transcript AAnd then the third joke I put on Twitter was getting away from profession- oriented humor. Why don't mushrooms ever shared their feelings?BSo this is a little bit of fun with fungus.AYou're right. We haven't had fun with fungus in awhile, but we are doing So right now. A: Because they’re a fungi, exclamation point. B, because they tend to get to mush-y, C, because they don't want to seem toxic. Again, small sample size, but also a smaller standard deviation because joke C got 91% of the votes, because they don't want to seem toxic. That was me.BIt looks like ten out of 11.AGive me some credit for being funnier than a robot.BYeah, oh yeah.AAnd then B, they don't want to get too mush-y. That was actually Zoe's punchline, 10-year-old. And then A is obviously then the AI punchline. And that did not get any votes.BIt’s a joke I would make.AIt’s a very bad joke. But I did like the addition of the exclamation point.BThat was very creative of the AI.AI give the bot a little bit of credit for that.BYeah.AI would like to use this opportunity to debut some of my original jokes.BOh, okay.AHow do mattress companies ensure their products are comfortable for their customers?BI don't know.AThey run snoozability tests.BOh.AWhy are project managers so good at gymnastics?BHm.ABecause they're agile. This one is so generic, I'm sure it's been said before, but why did the creative writing professor go to the graveyard? To find the plot.BYou had to dig deep for that one, didn't you?ANow, that is a dad joke.BWell, it'll become a dad joke once it's been done to death.AOkay. We started playing around with your profession. Technically, you’re what, an arborist?BMm-hmm.AThis one is from the AI. Why did the arborist go to the bank? To get a branch loan!BThis is the territory of failing so hard it wraps around to a win.AAnd then I asked you to come up with a couple. So you should deliver these.BWhy did the arborist go to the bank?AWhy?BHe saw their ad.A Aha.B Or, he had trouble logging into their website.AThat one would get my vote.BWhat did the arborist say when he planted an oak tree?ATell me.BAI says, this oak tree will grow and grow.AFunny in its ignorance.BThis is very much the same. Yes.AAnd then the ones we came up were notBInstead of a joke it came up with a truth statement. Wow.ANow this one, we didn't come up with great punchlines, but well, Okey-doke!BDoes this look oak-ay to you?AThen I wanted to ask a joke about academic podcasters. What did the academic podcaster say when their podcast was over?BThat's a wrap of knowledge.AExclamation point. My suggested punchline was, this was an exploratory pilot podcast.BNot funny but not bad.AAlright, one more and then I'll be done, I promise. When I was thinking of which one to put on Twitter, I was debating between the cross the road one and the trapped in an elevator one.BYou haven't said the trapped in an elevator yet.ABut I will. What did the technical communicator do when he got stuck in an elevator?BSo this is the question it came up with when you said write a joke about technical communicators.ACorrect. That was my prompt. The answer it came up with was “wrote a detailed manual on how to get out,” which is similar in theme to the crossing the road one. The one that I came up with was, he said finally, some alone time.BI think that's probably more of an assumption that technical communicators are introverts like you.AFair enough. So again, relying upon stereotypes. But if what my students report to me is representative at all of the tech comm population then they do lean on the introvert side. Last punchline I came up with. You get to read this one. Question. What did the technical communicator do when he got stuck in an elevator?BRecorded a three-part podcast series about risk and hazard communication. Hey.AYeah, that was a little personal.AI'd like to close with one more chat GPT experiment I did. So I'm famously bad at titles. I'm just not creative. So I asked it, what could I title my LOL-cats inspired cookbook. Secretly I wanted to see if it was going to include cheeseburgers.BMm-hmm. Because in the early days of memes when it was just captioned cat pictures.AI can haz cheeseburger. That's where you had to go for memes in the olden days. Anyways, I was curious if it, if it could draw on that history, that legacy, but it didn't.BNo?AInstead it suggested Cookin’ with cat memes, deliciously purr-fect recipes for every occasion.BDid it come up with anything else interesting? I see other stuff.AOkay. Well, yeah. I don't know if we have time for it, but in case we do. I asked it to title an autobiography for an engineer turned arborist who loves space and renewable energy.BWhat did it say?ALeaves and stars colon, a memoir of an engineer-arborist’s journey to a sustainable future. What do you think?BI mean, it basically just reformatted what you gave it, but.AAnd then I asked it to title an autobiography about an English professor who loves Disney channel original musicals, Ted Danson, and platypuses. And this is entirely hypothetical as I’m sure you can tell.BYeah. Asking for a friend, right?AA curiously magical life: The autobiography of professor Patricia Platypus. I don’t know where the Patricia came from, but there’s also Living an Eclectic Life: The memoirs of professor Edward T. Danson, platypus-loving musical enthusiast.BYou definitely got more of a word-salad answer.AYeah. You’ve got your work cut out for you, now that there’s a title for your book, you have to write it.BWhat in the? Fern. Silly cat. She’s gonna be trapped in there.AServes her right. Is that a wrap?BOf knowledge.AHa!

February 23, 2023

AI is a joke

We reflect on AI text generators, creativity, technical communication, writing instruction, algorithmic literacy, magic, and more. Importantly, we reveal the results of our Twitter experiment: Are we funnier than a robot? (Results were mixed.) Also, find out what happens when we drink an AI-generated cocktail recipe and ask ChatGPT to write a stand-up routine about the ethics of artificial intelligence.  Sources and further reading Bakke, A. (2020). Everyday Googling: Results of an Observational Study and Applications for Teaching Algorithmic Literacy. Computers and Composition, 57, 102577. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.compcom.2020.102577 Graham, S. S., & Hopkins, H. R. (2022). AI for Social Justice: New Methodological Horizons in Technical Communication. Technical Communication Quarterly, 31(1), 89–102. https://doi.org/10.1080/10572252.2021.1955151 re:verb. (2022, November 11). E75: A.I. Writing and Academic Integrity. https://www.reverbcast.com/podcasts/2022/11/11/e75-ai-writing-and-academic-integrity U.X. Podcast. (30 Dec. 2022). #305 Dyscalculia and ChatGPT. https://uxpodcast.com/305-dyscalculia-chatgpt/ Transcript AI am Professor Abigail R. Bakke.B And I am plain old Benton Bakke.AOld is right.BYeah. Lay off, you youngster.ANo, but you have, you have a curious history career wise.BIt's true.ABut that gives you all the more to draw from as we discuss the scholarship of technical communication.BYeah.APizza delivery driver to engineer toBLet's not forget, librarian.AAh, I too was a librarian. Well, not officially,BRight, same.ABut I also got to sit at the desk and tell people to use the self-checkout. So I was really worthless. And now you have swapped the desk for the great outdoors.BI have worked my way up in the world to cutting trees. In fact, sometimes way up in the world.ANice.BAs many as 70 ft up.AOkay, bottoms up.BWhat in the world? What is this?AThis is probably a good time to tell you that we are drinking a cocktail recipe generated by artificial intelligence. What do you think?BIs it an evil artificial intelligence?AI don't think it's bad. I was hoping it would be bad because I want reassurance that AI isn't getting too intelligent. You know what I mean?BWhat is this?AWhat part of it?BWhat is in this?AI basically said, give me a recipe with peppermint schnapps because that's the one thing in our liquor cabinet that I just don't know what to do with it. So it gave me a recipe and I asked it to name the drink as well. So we're drinking a peppermint schnapperscream. That was when I told it to give me a cute name for it. And then I asked it to give me a sophisticated name for it. Here's the sophisticated name. Minty snow float. So it's basically okay, it's ice cream. And our cat snuck in when we weren't looking.BOur cat is not an ingredient in this drink.ANo. Where was I? Ice cream, peppermint schnapps, club soda, and then it said to garnish with crushed candy cane. See what I did?BAround the rim?AThis was my own little twist on it. Yes.BI'm not a real fan of mint.AUgh, fine. Today we are not talking about disaster. Which feels weird because it's been literal months.BIt's true. And, you know, frankly, I am excited. I am so glad to be out of the hot seat and controlling things. In fact I would be pumped, turning it over completely to an algorithm to run this podcast.AOh, I see what you did. No, but I really enjoyed being the reactor. You know, you being the researcher and I being the reactor. That was a fun dynamic to experiment with. And I also figured it out. You are the Peter Jackson of podcasts. Do you know why?BTell me, Frodo.AI don't know if you’ll like my answer,BUh oh.ABut he took one book and spread it out into three movies.BYou are in this case talking about The Hobbit.AYes. But that's okay. That is a style that some people appreciate. Meanwhile,BThere was that much story to tell.ADid I ever tell you this? The first time I saw the Fellowship of the Ring, I was disappointed because at the end of the movie I was like, they didn't throw the ring into Mount Doom.BRight.ASo likewise, I would like to be able to condense multiple books into one episode, but that usually doesn't happen either. But today, we're not talking about books. We are talking about AI text generation, creativity, magic, technical communication,Band the end of the world.AWriting pedagogy.BOh, right.ASpecifically, chat GPT, which is all over the Twitter discourse. Everyone has something to say about it. And somehow I think I can add to the conversation so here I am. Chat GPT. I don't even know what the GPT stands for, but it's an app. It's an AI tool that you can ask it a question and it generates an answer from who knows where, everything on the web ever? And you can ask it to write in different styles or genres, like a recipe, for instance, a cover letter for a job, an essay for your English class. Hopefully, we can, we can put a little bit of a unique spin on it. Or at the very least, we can have some fun with it. Because I did. Professor twitter has a lot to say about it and people from different fields are weighing in and experimenting with it and trying to comment on how stupid it is or how smart it is and how this will change education for good or for bad, you know the drill. As with any new technology, we're hearing the gamut of, of reactions. One of the main concerns, of course, is cheating and writing instructor Twitter. That particular corner of Twitter, I should say, has more nuanced takes about it than in the mainstream. And I think that's because good writing pedagogy already guards against other kinds of plagiarism, so maybe there's less concern on the cheating front. For instance, having really specific localized writing prompts versus write a five-paragraph essay arguing in favor of…BCannibalism.ANo, that is not a paper that students write. Should hope not. You know, like, what's the most generic prompt you can think of? The value of a college education, say.BDefend the next $60,000 of your life.AOh yikes. Or write an essay comparing and contrasting, whatever. So with that kind of prompt, AI does pretty well, decent enough to cause some alarm. But teachers aren't asking students to write that kind of paper. I don't think. It's also been a very long time since I've taught first-year writing. I teach almost exclusively technical, yeah, just technical writing at this point. And I feel like tech comm by its nature, is very specific and exact. I'd like to think that's harder to replicate with AI. But, AI, even if it's not that intelligent now, it's only going to get more so in the years to come.BThat is of course, unless we’ll say, techno anarchists feed bullshit to the AI in order to keep them stupid.AI love it.BI need to pitch that to Hollywood right now actually.ATrolls for freedom. That's the title of the movie?BTrolls versus terminators.ANice. Even if we don't have to deal with a super smart AI right now, that's not always going to be the case. So I don't think we need to freak out, but neither can we rest on our laurels. Let it be known Benton finished his drink before I did.BYes.AThe other thing is that it really depends on the field and on what you're asking it to do, whether you're gonna get a legit response. So apparently chat GPT was able to pass an MBA exam.B I have seen that it passed the bar in, I don't know what state.AIf it's multiple choice I can see that. There's also been times where it's gotten basic historical facts wrong or math wrong. And like, there's an actual word people use for this, it hallucinates sources and facts.BWhat is it, Fox News?AOoh. So there is the fear response, there's also the excitement, like this is going to revolutionize the way we work. And if you're not on the bandwagon, then you're like people who were anti calculator back in the day kind of thing.BI think that like, like any technology, yeah, it's going to change the way we work. But what does that mean? Is that a good thing or is it not?AI'm honestly most concerned about the labor implications because okay. What was that meme that you were telling me about?BFuturists in the 1970s: automation is going to free us up from all of the menial tasks in our lives so we'll be able to pursue creative endeavors, the arts and music. And then it's like tech bro in the 2020s: Automation is going to free you up from creative endeavors and the arts and music so that you can be distracted from your menial task work-life.AAw. It is scary though, have you seen some of the AI art?BI haven't seen any good AI art, I’ve seen a lot of terrifying ones.AI mean, it's cool. It's cool. I'm also not an artist, so I'm not able to look and be like, yeah, this has quality composition or whatever.BThe meme pages I follow have put some really choice trainwrecks up. Most of what I saw was supposed to be people, but the faces were super fucked up. like fractal eyes or, like there's one I saw that was, when you ask AI to give you a picture about a handshake,Awhat did it show?BOh my gosh. Lots of extra fingers, like a hand with like eight fingers shaking a hand with four or something. There's one where there's a hand shaking another hand. That is basically like a wrist connected to another hand that's shaking a third hand.AOh, that's thinking outside the box.BYes.AWhich could be cool orBIt could be but it isn't trying to be.AYeah. So what's that one? DALL-E, no, DALL-E. Hey!BSalvador Dali?AThat must be what it's named after.BWhat?AThe art AI. An art AI, I should say. That didn't occur to me until I just said it out loud.BSurrealist.AYeah. Melting watches, right?B Pouring clocks in the bathtub.AWhere did that come from?BThat's a Dali, isn't it?AI feel like that's the punchline of a joke.BHow many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?ATwo giraffes and a bathtub full of clocks. So, yeah, I can't call out like yes, this art was definitely created by a human or a robot. And as much as they'd like to think I would be able to call out an AI generated essay, I don't think I could consistently do that. Although like from what I've seen, even if I didn't know it was AI, it would not get a very good grade.BI can definitely see that, that AI would not would not make an A essay.AYes, exactly that. It tends to be vague and wrong in places. And like I've done some experimentation and we're going to demonstrate it in a bit here. But I listened to a podcast interview recently that actually made me feel a lot better about this. It was on the Re:verb podcast. And they interviewed Scott Graham. He built a, an AI text generator into like a class project. I think he actually said write your papers using this and then revise it. And he said that the students hated it because it took so much work to bring the writing up to any standard of quality that they may as well have just written it themselves. So that's reassuring to me for the moment. But honestly, I am really glad that there are researchers and instructors out there who are incorporating this into their classrooms and not ignoring that it exists because it's one of those things. Students are going to use it anyway and so your writing class may as well be, and probably would be their one opportunity to think critically about how they're using it.BYeah.ASo thank you, innovative professors who are doing that work. I hope that there is room for me to be a little annoyed by the existence of this thing that suddenlyBCertainly, yeah.Arequires me to change up like projects and academic honesty policy and all that likeBOK, Boomer.AOh my gosh. That does really make me sound like a boomer. It's not like I'm teaching the same course again and again. Every time I reteach a course, I change multiple parts of it every single time and I always tell myself I'm just going to teach it the same way and see myself all this prep time, but I literally cannot, or I will get bored. And even so, I don't feel like pandering to the whims of AI.BBut it is fully reasonable to be annoyed that somebody made a thing exists that's going to change your job.AAlong with that, I think there should be room to be nervous about it too in terms of what the long-term consequences might be. Because the way things go in our country, people will settle for a lower quality product if it means they can fire their staff of technical communicators. That is my fear. At the same time, focusing on just the like, the text generation part of ChatGPT, that is a small piece of what technical communicators do. There is so much of a human element to that work that I think cannot be substituted with a machine.BI honestly think that in the realm of technical communication, like you said, because it's so specific and there's such focus of what needs to be done in this technical communication that you literally can't just make it up,Aright?BYou know, like if it's a user manual, pfft, you're gonna let a computer guess how it's supposed to work? Coming up with stories. That's one thing. Telling you how to use dangerous equipment is not the same sort of thing.AThat's right. And I don't doubt that there is a way to use it, supplementally or whatever, butBIt could be a failure of imagination on my part, but I don't see there being an awful lot of actual communication of technical information that can be done with accuracy, efficacy by an AI.AYeah, I mean we’ll have to see. Along the lines of long-term consequences. So it's that what could go wrong question that we did a whole episode about last year. I hope people are asking that question about this technology. I think they are. Whether it's enough to make a difference is another question. So some of my experimentation, I asked ChatGPT to write a podcast dialogue about the ethics of AI. You were there actually when it, when it spit it out. And we were both like, holy shit. Not because it was necessarily good, but there was definitely a sense of magic to it. Like, I can just conjure this. Let's do a reading. Try to make it sound as natural as possible. Okay, I'll be person one, you'd be person two. I highlighted your lines in pink.BOh, thanks.AOkay. Hey everyone. Welcome to our podcast about the ethics of AI.BYeah, let's talk about the ethical implications of the latest developments.AThat was pretty wooden. Take two. Hey everyone, welcome to our podcast about the ethics of AI.BYeah, let's talk about the ethical implementations. How am I supposed to say that in a non- wooden way? Let's talk about the ethical implications of latest AI developments.ASo what are your thoughts on the use of AI in healthcare?BWell, I think it's great that AI can help with diagnosing diseases and making treatment recommendations. But there's also the potential to misuse this technology.AAbsolutely. There are so many ethical considerations when it comes to using AI in any field.BYeah. And speaking of misuse, What do you think about the use of AI in military operations?AThat's a tricky one. On one hand, it could be a powerful tool for protecting people. But on the other hand, it could be used to commit atrocities.BExactly. We need to be carefulACan we just, can we just backup for a second? On one hand, it can be a useful tool. On the other hand, it could be used to commit atrocities!BYou know, I gotta say AI, you’re showing your hand. I mean, it's, it's basically already said that if we let it run military technology, it's going to commit atrocities.AOoh. Could be used. Oh, notice the passive voice there. I just find it a funny contrast like on the one hand, positives, on the other hand, atrocities, it's just this throwaway line. Do you not find that amusing? I mean, amusing is not the rightBIt does seem rather flippant.AYes, exactly that.BIt could be used to commit atrocities. Haha.AI need to hear more Pee-wee.BIf you see an AI committing atrocities, scream real loud. AHHHH. Huh huh huh.AWhat? Sorry, I interrupted our very natural sounding dialogue.BExactly. We need to be careful about how we use AI and make sure we're aware of the potential consequences.AAbsolutely. We can't forget the ethical implications of AI. Well, that's all the time we have for today's podcast. Thanks for listening. That's not the end of the real podcast, people. Don't stop your podcast player just yet. We need to analyze this. There's so much here. Deep subjects addressed superficially, plugged into a template. That's how it reads to me.B Yes, it is puddle deep.A It's almost like a Mad Libs forBYes. Mad libs for a podcast.ANo sources, obviously.BWell, yeah.ABut again, to its credit, I can see someone potentially using this to build out an outline like, Oh, we could talk about different fields or different applications of AI. And then you'd want to talk about it for more than a sentence.BThat I think is my favorite thing, it’s just like pinball, pinball, pinball over.AWhat's kinda cute about it is that whatever dataset it's drawing from people are very friendly to each other in their podcast dialogues. There's a lot of absolutely, Exactly.BOh, yeah.AYou're right. Great point. Yeah. That's not the worst.BThere’s no Are you out of your fucking mind?AYeah. So then I got to thinking, maybe I didn't give it a fair chance. Maybe the podcast dialogue genre is too superficial to let it really shine. So I was thinking to myself, what's a genre that's very nuanced and human: stand-up comedy. I asked it to write a stand-up act about the ethics of AI. I'm going to let you do the honors of reciting it, again as naturally as possible. We want to see how, how well this AI can emulate human comedy.BHello everyone. So I was thinking about the ethics of AI the other day. And it got me thinking, what robots do if they could vote? Would they vote for the same party as us? Or would they be like, Hey man, you're not a robot. I'm voting for the robot party.AInsert laugh track here.BInsert laugh track. Or what if robots had feelings. Would they be able to feel love? Or would they just be like, I'm a robot, I don't understand what love is. And then there's the question of robot rights. Should robots have rights? Should they be able to sue us for mistreatment? I'm thinking, Sure. Why not? It's only fair. Alright, thanks for having me, have a great night, everyone.AWhoo! Was any part of that funny on purpose?BMaybe I'm voting for the robot party. If you imagine, instead of political party, a bunch of robots getting together and dancingADoing the disco or whatever, whatever people do at parties.BI’ve never been to one.AI don't know what a party is, man. So yeah, it's capable of producing a funny image, but your human brain has to take it to another level. Potential situations that are being set up here could be played out in humorous ways.BI think you're giving it a lot more benefit of the doubt than I would.AWhat I'm saying is that if somebody were like, Oh shit, I've got my stand-up act on Friday and I'm not prepared. They could plug something in and they could read it and be like, That is shit, I can do better. How do I make this actually funny?BI'm going to do stand-up about this piece of garbage. It's got like the sandwich of the intro and the exit of a stand-up routine.Aand the storytelling like the other day I was blah.BAnd then it almost seems like the AI is coming through and trying to advocate for itself. What about robot rights? I mean, yeah, sure, It's only fair. You should be able to sue us for mistreatment.ALooked at through that lens that is a little scary. I think humor is one of the best tests of how human AI can come across. And in this case, I think it's fair to say it's failed, but like, okay, here's the thing about humor. It can be difficult to detect even among humans in the same room. There's so much that goes into a joke. For instance, there's inflection, there's facial expressions, all these like microscopic nuances. And then there's all that assumed shared knowledge that has to be in place for a joke to make sense.BYeah.ABut besides humor, do you know what else is context-specific, highly nuanced, and audience-centered?BOh, I know this one. I know this one. Is it fart jokes? I'm sorry. Technical Communication?AThat's what I'm after.BYay!AYeah. And so, like we were saying before, that's what gives me a little bit of hope that robarts. Roborts. It gives me some hope that robots aren't going to come steal our jobs in the immediate future. I got curious about AI's ability to write jokes specifically about topics that you and I respectively have a very deep knowledge of. Because I wanted to see, can the AI understand this topic in a nuanced way? Or are we just going to get like stereotypes or whatever? And that's where we get my experiment about whether we're funnier than a robot. On Twitter, some of you may have seen this, I had a series of polls where I put a joke and then I gave three punchlines and I asked people to vote for the best one. There was one AI punchline in the midst of each of those surveys. So now you get the results. I asked ChatGPT to write a joke about technical communicators. Why did the technical communicator cross the road?BI don't know.AI have three options for you. A, to understand the pedestrian experience. B, because the instructions said to cross the road. C, the question is not why, but how? This one got 30-some votes on Twitter,Bokay.AOh, and our friend from the Podcast of Podcasts chimed in and suggested to get to the conference center, which would be very fitting in ATTW season.BThat's a good one for academics.AShould we reveal which one is the AI punchline first or should we reveal which one got the most votes first?BMost votes first.AMost votes first. Okay. It was A, to understand the pedestrian experience, which I am proud to say was my creation.BWhat's that last one, It's the question is not why, but how? Was that one me?AThat was me and that was the one I was actually the proudest of.BI thought that was the best answer too.AAnd then it was B, because the instructions said to go to the other side, that got the second most votes. And that was indeed the ChatGPT generated punchline. And this was the first one we did and so it was alarming because I was like, that's actually a funny punchline.BThat's a plausible punchline.AAnd when robots are funny, You gotta, you gotta be a little worried. Anyway.BI'd be more worried if they were militant, butAFair. Fair. So I decided to even try this out in person. So I asked my colleagues at a faculty meeting. So everyone there, tech comm. I figured if anyone is going to get the joke, it'll be these folks. One person said punchline B was their favorite. Someone said punchline A was their favorite. That was the, to understand the pedestrian experience.BThat was the UX person, wasn't it?AOh my gosh, it was. Yeah, and if I remember right. She said, now that one is really audience specific and nuanced. And I was like, you know what's up. Shout out to Dawn. And then the other faculty member said, I like all three of them.Bwe should say that almost half of the people who answered on that first joke went withAA. So in that particular instance, yes, I was funnier than a robot, but I was also less funny than a robot depending on how you look at it.B True.AThe next joke I put on Twitter was, Why don't English professors ever tell jokes in class? A, because they don't have a sense of humor.BFair.AB, because the Moby Dick jokes write themselves. C, because they don't want to start a grammar discussion. So this one had fewer participants so we are less confident in the significance of the results.BAnd the vote was closer as well,ARight. It was pretty evenly split, but, oh, punchline C got the most votes, 40%. And that was indeed the AI generated punchline. Because they don't want to start a grammar discussion.BSo apparently, what ChatGPT knows about English professors is grammar.APrecisely. And the one thing chat GPT knows about technical communicators is that they write instructions.BMore accurately, they expect them to follow instructions.AYes. Ooh, interesting. That's what we're going to get is we're gonna get superficial,BStereotypicalAExactly. And that can be funny. You know, ss, as someone who is an English professor and a Technical Communication professor at that, I am happy to poke fun of myself in these ways. But in reality,BWhat would you guess is the,Ahow much do English professors actually care about grammar?BRight.AAh. I think if other English professors are anything like me they are in the field because they love language and part of what is beautiful about language is that it can change. And that it means different things in different contexts to different people in different periods of time. Which means there's an appreciation for what language is more so than what language should be. That's not to say there are not sticklers out there. And again, there are situations where attention to grammar matters more than others.BSo it is of interest. But the rectitude of grammar is of less interest.AYes. The second punchline, the Moby Dick jokes write themselves. Yes, that was me. Apparently I have the humor of what, a 12-year-old boy?BI mean, call me Ishmael.AWhat?BOkay. That was really, really badly played. That is the first line of Moby Dick.AI know that.Bfor anyone who doesn't know.AAnd then who came up with the first punchline, because they have no sense of humor? Was that me?BIt was.AThat sounded like a little mean. I have to say.BIt was right up there. It was neck and neck.AIt got a couple votes, yep.BSpeaking of bad jokes, the other day, I was thinking about how like dad jokes are almost universally puns and groaners and bad jokes. Whereas mom jokes,AThere is no such thing as mom jokes.BUh. Mom jokes typically are derogatory.AOh, your mom jokes?BYes. What does that say about implicit sexism in society?AHow about that? And in fact, that leads me to an observation,BObserve away.AIn all the iterations of the English professor joke. I ran this multiple times just to see what kind of variety I was getting in terms of responses. And in all the iterations, the English professor was a he. And by all I mean like four. And then for the technical communicator jokes, it was most often he. Maybe there was one she thrown in there. Which I mean, both are not representative of reality. Technical communicators tend to be women, in fact. It suggests something about either who is the default subject of a joke or who is the default image of an English professor. You know, it kinda reminds me of that Google Images thing years ago, that if you Google search English professor, it'll pull up multiple images of old white men withBsweater vests,Aelbow patches. So there is bias. Obviously. I mean, even the AI itself acknowledged it can be biased and can in fact commit atrocities.BThat's right. We’re on to you, ChatGPT.ANow, I want to talk more about the experience of using this tool. There was a cool and unexpected thing that arose out of this experiment for me, which is that I felt inspired. And I don't often feel inspired creatively.BOkay.ABut you saw me. I was like,BOoh, now let's try this.BIt put my brain in a different mode, almost. Yes, I started from the AI. But the more I engaged with it, the more I was also able to move away from it.AMoved away from it.BLike teachers are afraid that students are going to press the button and turn in the essay, right? And it's going to have no amount of actual engagement. You know what I mean? And that was not the case for me. I didn't press the button and say, Oh, I'm done here. Not that I have any pressing need to tell technical communicator jokes. But as I was seeing what this AI was churning out, I started getting ideas of my own that I think it's fair to say they weren't inspired by what I was seeing, but not necessarily derivative of them. Maybe they were, who knows what that means.AWell, it was probably spitting out something that keyworded your brain to activate this network, or that network.BYeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.AYou came up with something that wasn't, it may have been because of it, but it wasn't based on it really.BOr like the punchline it gave me. I thought of a better setup for it or vice versa. Overall, I mean, you were kind of in range as I was doing this but you didn't do it yourself, did you?AI don't think so. No.BYeah. You were just kind of hearing me go on and on. And I mentioned before that there was this sense of magic. Like you press a button and it gives you this fully formed thing that you can then critique and take apart and adjust. AndBFern? Meow.AThat was exciting to me. But whenever we get that sense of magic with a technology, that's a sign to stop and think a little bit. Not to be a wet blanket, butBWell, yeah, I mean, definitely in the case of AI coming up with content, text is absolutely a realm in which it is so bounded, that it has a chance. It has a chance, Yeah, okay, come on up. It has a chance to figure things out and to monkey-typewriter its way into believability.AMm-hmm. The concern I have about it is that what's going on behind the scenes is so invisible. Like I mentioned before, I don't even know where this comes from. What, what kind of repositories is it drawing from?BWhat datasets started it learning? I mean, even, even when you're talking about a neural net, that is kind of by definition a black box, but you feed something into the black box and that isn't unknown, at least to the feeder.ARight, right. But there is a point at which machine-learning kind of takes on a life of its own. And you really cannot backtrace all the decisions it's made.BRight.ANow, in defense of black boxes, this was an interesting thought from Graham and Hopkins. They mention the fact that our brains are a black box. We cannot know the intricate processes.BBrains were the original neural net.ABut that doesn't mean we discount its output.BSometimes we do, butAIndeed, as we should. But I think it was just an interesting point.BI think that it's very much a form of the uncanny valley. At a certain point of getting close but not exactly, they’re just too unnerving and it freaks people out. I think that specifically in this case, since it's, like our brains, a black box, that information goes in and unpredictable information comes out. It behaves like a human. If it wasn't for the lightning fast reply, when you ask it for something complicated, you would think there might be someone on the other end of this conversation responding.AI mean, that's in the title, Chat GPT, right? It's supposed to feel like you're having a conversation with someone in a way. And so you frame your prompts in almost a conversational way. And when you think of Google, more and more Google has gotten better at interpreting the conversational kinds of search phrases people might put in, you know, natural language processing. But at least with Google you still have some agency because it gives you options.BYeah, you choose where it brings you. It gives you choices of where it can bring you.AAnd with ChatGPT, it's like, well, okay. Do you remember when Google used to have the I'm feeling lucky button. Is that still there?BI don't know.AI don't know that I've ever clicked on it, but if I remember right, it brings you to the top search result for that query. Is that right?BIt may. My first experience with it, gosh, it was one of those things that went viral before there was really a means other than word of mouth to go viral. It was you type in Iraq WMD and you hit, I'm feeling lucky. And then it brings you to some page where, it was like a 404 page that was specifically mocking George Bush's like insistence that there was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, whichAWhat was your reaction at the time?BIt was comical, so I laughed.AOkay. It was subversive. But it does raise the question of how that could be abused, of course,BTrue. And Iraq, WMD, the more interesting question is, how this beat out all manner of news sitesAYeah.Bthat had just been had for years been cranking out, towing the administration line garbage. And this joke site came up and rose to the top.AAnd that's saying something because, so you know I did a study of Google where I literally watched people Google stuff.BWere you Google-ogling?AGoogle ogling, it’s a new research method.BAnd if you study this phenomenon…AGoogleogleology?BGolly what a day.AYeah. And so one of the takeaways there was that so much of our use of Google is kind of in the background as in like we aren't necessarily conscious about it. And I say we because other research has, has backed this up too but you know I noticed that in my own observations and my own use of Google, we go to Google and we don't stop and think, is there a different search engine that would make more sense for this particular query? We don’t think what would happen if I prioritized results lower down on the list that kind of thing.BI remember that early on before the natural language learning of Google, there were classes, instruction, on how to use a search engine.AYou had to know how to use the Boolean operators and everything.BYeah.AI mean, in some databases you still do that but, and I don't fault anyone for just going with the flow because that is Google's goal.BThey want to be invisible.APrecisely. With Google, I think in recent years, I've heard people complain that it's less useful than it used to be because it's so loaded up with ads and sponsored results and everything now.BCapitalism ruins everything.AAnd in fact, it is difficult to distinguish between ads and not ads. But you can still figure it out if you pay attention. When it comes to ChatGPT, it just spits something out. If you don't know where it's coming from, if you don't know who might have paid money to get priority in a result or whatever, that's dangerous. And I want to shout out to the UX Podcast for raising this possibility in one of their recent episodes, which I hadn't thought of before. You can see how Chat GPT, in the way its interface is designed, actually takes away more agency from the user compared to Google. Because it gives you one response.BYeah.AAnd it's just straight out answering your question versus providing you multiple sources that could answer that question in different ways or provide different angles on it.BMoreover, Google gives you sources, Google gives you links to the place where you can get your answer from. Depending on how well it understands the question, it might just have that little sidebar,AThe knowledge panel.BIt might have the knowledge panel that just gives you an answer.Awhich frankly is good in some cases. Because when you type in what, diabetes like, you, it's probably better that people get Mayo Clinic prioritized.BYeah. I mean, there's definitely functions where you want to know your source, but there's also functions where you don't want that extra click because you're looking for something that is so simple. It can just tell you. If you type in 34 yd in kilometers, you want an answer. You're not looking for like, the most authoritative source on this information.APrecisely.BOr when was JFK assassinated? Or very specific things that there is one answer and there is no debate reasonable or unreasonable about.AWell, there might be unreasonable debate about it, when you're talking about JFK because apparently he is still alive?BI'm, I'm sure that there are tinfoil hatters around that will say that he's secretly running the US government from the far side of the moon. Why not?AYes.BAnd if not, that one’s free. That one's free folks. You run with it.AType it into ChatGPT and see what kind of sci-fi it gives you. However, that does get really blurry. Especially when it comes to medical information. Where on the one hand, we have people saying, trust the science, the COVID vaccine works. Here's, here's its mechanisms and here's the studies that show it's effective in these ways. And then on the other side you have people skewing and fabricating and manipulating information. And that's not to say that these are two equally valid ways to view this question. But rather it's acknowledging that there are issues like that where there's enough polarization and enough just complete lack of common ground on the issues that it gets really hard to make those calls, like from the perspective of a company like Google. And we've seen how politics does make a difference in how CEOs run their companies.BOur chat here is inspiring. I'm getting like, Oh, oh, oh, oh, ideas about things I would ask chat GPT if we had it here and ready to rock. Is COVID-19 real? If it had anything more than yes as the answer, ha. Were the moon landings faked? Is the Earth flat? You know, stuff that people create controversy about that is not controversial.AYeah. Yeah, but all that to say. The less distance between a question and an answer, the less opportunity for reflection. I guess. You're taking away those decision points that allow people to say, Oh, okay, there's this website and there's that website. In some cases maybe that's better. But in a lot of cases, because this AI is pulling from an Internet that is inherently, that has sexism and racism baked into it. I would be cautious about that.BChatGPT doesn't compensate for bad actors. Maybe it does, but it's a black box. So I don't know. Maybe it has a way of even understanding that bad actors exist?AI have seen people post results where someone will ask ChatGPT to, this is hypothetical, but in the vein of saying, write an essay in praise of Adolf Hitler. And it'll come back and say, nope, not doing that.BThat sounds like a human said, okay, we want to make sure it does not do this because we don't want them to come with pitchforks and torches to our house.AYeah. Someone is asking that question, what could people do to abuse this tool? But people are endlessly imaginative when it comes to ways to exploit technology.BAnd people.AAnd I don’t know that an individual organization is going to be able to keep up. So all that to say, I think the role of writing instructors at this point in time is to, again, acknowledge that this thing exists. Acknowledged the fact that students are probably going to use it. But talk about that importance of algorithmic literacy and kind of having those checkpoints for reflection rather than just inherently trusting it because it's technology and it, and it materializes texts like magic. So that's that.

TC Talk

About the show

Listen to episodes

The case for climate hope: A talk with Dr. Stephanie Rollag Yoon

Listen to this

Recycling: You still don’t get it

Dealing with climate doom

Accessibility and AI

How to read, revisited

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 2

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 1

BONUS: All the jokes we couldn’t fit in the last episode

AI is a joke

Is this your show?

TC Talk

About the show

Listen to episodes

The case for climate hope: A talk with Dr. Stephanie Rollag Yoon

Listen to this

Recycling: You still don&#8217;t get it

Dealing with climate doom

Accessibility and AI

How to read, revisited

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 2

IBM and the Holocaust, Part 1

BONUS: All the jokes we couldn&#8217;t fit in the last episode

AI is a joke

Is this your show?

Recycling: You still don’t get it

BONUS: All the jokes we couldn’t fit in the last episode