Second Order Change

Hosted by Challenger Media House

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Apr 2025

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About the show

On Second Order Change we share honest conversations with incredible artists, entrepreneurs, and authentic humans. No matter their title, all these people have experienced the wild ride that comes with stepping out of the mainstream, embracing your calling, and experience the fulfillment of comprehensive creative living. You will learn how others have replaced certainty with curiosity, turned obstacles into opportunities, and unlocked the lives their soul was seeking all along. Maybe you're already on your path and need some support, or maybe you're still standing at the edge of leaving behind all you've ever known... either way, you are welcome here. We love you. This podcast is designed specifically for you. Life can be complicated, but it doesn't have to be. It all comes down to one simple question: who are you here to be? Death to Certainty, Long Live the Dream A Challenger Media House Production.

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29 recent

April 21, 202557 min

Video Vendor to Strategic Partner: Evolving Your Creative Career with Lisamarie Shires

In this episode, Executive Producer and business mentor Lisamarie Shires shares what it really means to move beyond execution and become a trusted strategic partner in the creative industry.Through stories and insights from years of experience working with filmmakers and photographers, Lisamarie explores how creatives can reclaim their value, embody their expertise, and lead projects with vision — not just visuals.We talk about navigating industry shifts, redefining success, and showing up with grounded authority in an environment that often pushes creatives into compliance.Whether you're navigating burnout, recalibrating your business, or ready to step into your next evolution as a creative leader, this episode offers clarity, permission, and practical wisdom.🕒 Chapter Breakdown:00:00 – The Evolving Role of Filmmakers01:15 – Navigating Uncertainty in Business04:20 – The Impact of Rapid Industry Changes08:08 – Adapting to Client Needs and Expectations12:55 – Creative Problem Solving in Production19:15 – Opportunities in the Mid-Level Market27:57 – Embracing Change and Adaptability28:36 – Navigating Industry Shifts31:57 – Balancing Work and Lifestyle32:32 – Resisting External Pressures35:02 – Aligning with Personal Values45:16 – The Power of Fearlessness54:34 – Long-Term Vision and TrustStep your game up and work with Lisamarie: https://lisamarieshires.com/Connect with Lisa on IG: https://www.instagram.com/lisamarieshiresConnect with Evan on IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcier

April 12, 202557 min

Embodying Authenticity: Conversations on Being and Becoming with Ian Maxwell

In this episode of Second Order Change, host Evan Bourcier engages in a deep and insightful conversation with mindset coach, entrepreneur, and artist Ian Maxwell. The discussion explores the concepts of authenticity, the fluidity of identity, and how our intrinsic characteristics and conditioned behaviors shape our experiences. Highlighting the importance of internal authority over external validation, they delve into ways of being and becoming, the impact of storytelling on personal growth, and the nuances of discipline and devotion. Evan and Ian also reflect on emotional acceptance, the process of reintegration, and the transformative power of imaginative embodiment. The episode wraps up with practical advice on how to navigate these complex inner landscapes, making it a valuable listen for anyone interested in personal and professional development.Saturday April 19th I am going to be sharing the most impactful lessons I’ve learned about video and photo equipment - what to buy, what to rent, how to take advantage of depreciation, cost of ownership vs sticker price, when and why to buy a $10k tripod, gear strategy for companies vs freelancers, setting pricing, negotiating, and so much more. During the workshop we’re going to spend 80 minutes digging into these highly actionable principles and then have 40 minutes of QnA to talk about what’s going on in your specific world and how you can apply the tools to create more freedom for yourself, your team, and your family.Film Gear Hacking: https://www.ebourcier.com/film-gear-hackingFind Ian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mindset_magic_coachFind Evan on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierPodcast Chapters:00:00 Exploring Authenticity and Identity01:30 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest02:31 Upcoming Financial Workshop Announcement04:09 Childhood Imagination and Adult Conditioning08:41 Discipline vs. Devotion09:55 Mindset Coaching and Personal Growth17:41 The Power of Storytelling and Acceptance23:21 Understanding Ways of Being28:27 Understanding Cognitive Dissonance29:03 The Power of Declarative Truths31:00 Exploring Rhetorical Secrecy33:02 The Interplay of Being and Becoming37:13 Authenticity and Self-Acceptance46:49 Embracing Emotions and Vulnerability54:32 Navigating Success and Inner Stories

March 31, 202556 min

Navigating Grief, Growth, & Creativity with Michael Dalton

What happens when you stop suppressing your emotions and start embracing them?In this episode, we dive into the messy, beautiful process of emotional growth—how childhood experiences, therapy, and personal awakenings shape our perspective on life, creativity, and success.We unpack:🔹 Growing up in a conservative religious environment and unlearning emotional suppression🔹 The impact of grief, heartbreak, and vulnerability on personal and creative life🔹 Balancing emotions and rationality into an integrated way of being🔹 How authenticity on social media can both empower and challenge us🔹 Parenting, individuality, and encouraging emotional expression in future generationsThis is a conversation about healing, growth, and the creative power of feeling deeply.🎧 Listen now on Second Order Change.Michael's IG: https://www.instagram.com/michaelishustleEvan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierA Challenger Media House Production.

March 22, 20251 hr 20 min

Finding Purpose: Drake Margolnick’s Journey Through PTSD, Music, and Sobriety

In this deeply personal episode, Drake Margolnick opens up about a life-altering blackout while working with rising artist Adina Rey—an incident that forced him to confront the lasting impact of a 2016 abduction that left him battling PTSD, blackouts, and addiction.From the rise and fall of his band Flagship to rebuilding as a solo artist, Drake shares the highs and lows of his journey—his struggles with substance abuse, the challenges of the modern music industry, and how sobriety and creativity became his lifelines.He also dives into the realities of being an independent musician today, navigating streaming, social media, radio, and licensing, and the unexpected fulfillment of collaborating with and uplifting new artists.This is a story of resilience, redemption, and the transformative power of music.🎧 Listen now on Second Order Change.Flagship IG: www.instagram.com/flagshipDrake's IG: https://www.instagram.com/drakemargolnickEvan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierFlagship on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/54CUt2S6hufxE1MTYqVpmT?si=22-FXJa6QXeknpYT78YoiA Margolnick on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2pM7xmsP5Whj2ZZzEGQ89O?si=EbqggS6MRbW_fhzGCVaLAwA Challenger Media House Production

March 10, 20251 hr 11 min

How to Build Client Trust Without Compromising Creativity – with Filmmaker Jason Adams

In the latest episode of 'Second Order Change,' we dive deep into a conversation with filmmaker and entrepreneur Jason Adams. Part two of this discussion covers key topics including the often overlooked importance of trust and alignment with clients, the pitfalls of focusing on superficial metrics such as crew size and equipment, and the value of having a flexible, high-performing team. Jason and the host also discuss the dynamics of maintaining creative integrity while managing client expectations, the tangible benefits of efficient project management, and the critical need for personal artistic expression outside commercial work. This episode provides valuable insights for anyone involved in creative fields, emphasizing the significance of clear, ongoing communication and a focus on the final product rather than the process.00:00 Introduction: The Least Interesting Details00:21 Creating Unified Experiences01:03 Aligning with Clients01:47 Welcome to Second Order Change03:18 Effective Team Dynamics05:27 Balancing Creativity and Practicality08:08 Navigating Client Expectations09:20 The Role of Flexibility in Production21:48 Art vs. Commercial Creativity35:00 Balancing Creative Vision and Practical Constraints35:49 The Importance of Team Alignment38:05 Client Management and Empathy40:06 Efficiency in Production41:36 Avoiding Creative Bloat43:33 The Pitfalls of Overemphasizing Equipment45:56 Effective Client Communication54:50 Trust and Flexibility in Budgeting59:06 The Value of Skilled Crew Members01:09:21 Conclusion and ReflectionsJason's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jas_adamsEvan's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierA Challenger Media House Production.

February 24, 202555 min

How to Manage Big-Budget Film Productions Without Burning Out – with Jason Adam

In this conversation, Evan Bourcier and Jason discuss the complexities and inefficiencies of production in the film industry. They explore the nature of production bloat, the impact of long work hours on productivity, and the dynamics of client expectations on set. The discussion emphasizes the need for clarity and effective management of time and resources to enhance the creative process while maintaining a balance between cost management and creative integrity. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of the filmmaking process, discussing the balance between creativity and budget constraints, the importance of storytelling, and the ethical considerations in creative work. They explore how to navigate production challenges while maintaining artistic integrity and the value of understanding different aspects of filmmaking. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of creative work, discussing the cynicism that can arise from misaligned goals and the importance of maintaining creative integrity. They emphasize the value of flexible teams and the need for clear communication with clients to build trust and ensure successful collaborations. The discussion also touches on the nature of commercial creativity, highlighting the distinction between art and commercial work, and the importance of finding personal fulfillment in creative endeavors. In this conversation, Evan Bourcier and Jason discuss the challenges and frustrations faced by creatives in commercial art. They explore the importance of maintaining a balance between personal artistic expression and professional obligations, emphasizing the need for creative outlets outside of work. The dialogue also highlights the significance of alignment and communication within teams and with clients to foster a productive and enjoyable creative process. Ultimately, they advocate for crafting meaningful work that transcends mere status symbols in the industry. In this conversation, Evan Bourcier and Jason discuss the intricacies of collaboration in creative projects, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a clear vision while navigating client feedback. They explore the challenges of managing creative differences, the necessity of building trust and alignment with clients, and the significance of reputation in the industry. The dialogue highlights the need for effective communication and the value of creative freedom within budget constraints, ultimately advocating for a more collaborative and trust-based approach to filmmaking.

February 8, 20251 hr 26 min

From Addiction to Culinary Success: Allen Campbell’s Story of Reinvention

Chef Allen Campbell is widely known as a leader in the sports nutrition world. Most recently known as Tom Brady’s former personal chef, author of the TB12 Nutrition Manual as well as contributor to the TB12 Method and The Game of Eating Smart. Allen has popularized and revolutionized traditional culinary artistry by maximizing health benefits and sustainability. Allen created AC Kitchen to be a resource for those looking to achieve maximum health while enjoying delicious, organic food. This unique, small-batch meal service provides a wide variety of seasonal recipes, all made to order from scratch and hand-delivered from Boston to NYC.Learn more about AC Kitchen at: https://ackitchen.com/Allen's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chefallencampbell/Evan's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierEdited by Tate Bourcier.

January 12, 20251 hr 33 min

Creating Stories That Matter: James Victor on Fiction, Connection, and Purpose

Today on Second Order Change we're talking to storyteller James Victor.James and Evan both grew up as church creative lads committed to the path of truth and creative expression, even when that has lead into conflicts with the Dogma they were surrounded in. During this conversation we explore the intersection of faith, fear, and creativity - unpacking the role of stories in the human experience, and their power to heal dogmatic belief systems.Show Links:Jame's IG: https://www.instagram.com/probablyjamesvictorEvan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierReady to hand off Accounting so you can focus on Creative? You can hop on a No-Pressure Free Discovery Call with Core here: https://www.coregroupus.com/contact-core

January 5, 20251 hr 50 min

Channeling, Failure, and Depth in Creativity - Mitchel Dae

We're back with part 2 of our conversation with Musical artist Mitchel Dae.Show Links:Mitchel's IG: https://www.instagram.com/mitcheldaeEvan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierReady to hand off Accounting so you can focus on Creative? You can hop on a No-Pressure Free Discovery Call with Core here: https://www.coregroupus.com/contact-core

December 29, 20241 hr 32 min

Stupid People, Angsty Music, and Finding your Voice - Mitchel Dae

On this episode of Second Order Change we're talking to Alternative music artist Mitchel Dae about his journey to 450k monthly listeners without a label, which all started during one fateful night in his dorm room where he dropped his sister's guitar.We talk about finding your voice, building a brand, finding trusted collaborators, keeping things lean, trusting the process, finding producers, and riding a discovery wave.Show Links:Mitchel's IG: https://www.instagram.com/mitcheldaeEvan's IG: https://www.instagram.com/ebourcierReady to hand off Accounting so you can focus on Creative? You can hop on a No-Pressure Free Discovery Call with Core here: https://www.coregroupus.com/contact-coreKey TopicsIndie ArtistsFinding Your VoiceSpotify DiscoveryGrowing the Seed of an IdeaCreating without JudgementIncreasing Monthly ListenersBuilding a Spotify AudienceMitchel DaeAlternative MusicMusician Brand-BuildingCreating with Depth

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