Second Nature

Hosted by Dylan Bowman & Aaron Lutze

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172

Latest episode

Aug 2026

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EN-US

About the show

The business of outdoor hosted by Aaron Lutze & Dylan Bowman

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60 recent

September 4, 20261 hr 9 min

What Farmers Taught Him About Building A Company

Taylor Hoekstra spent years selling products through an unlikely channel — farmer YouTubers — years before anyone called it the "creator economy." That experience taught him something most people in the outdoor industry hadn't figured out yet, and it planted the seed for Popfly. Before writing a line of code, Taylor spent two years and roughly 500 conversations validating the idea, testing a simple question: would people actually pay for this? In this conversation, recorded live at Outdoor Retailer, Taylor walks through the classic cold-start problem every founder building a two-sided marketplace has to solve — get supply first, use supply to pull in demand, then reinvest in supply relentlessly. He also gets honest about the early years trying to convince outdoor brands that working with creators was worth their marketing budget, long before it was an easy sell. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Taylor Hoekstra: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taylorhoekstra/ Popfly: https://www.popfly.com Camp Chef: https://www.campchef.com/ Cold Start Problem: https://amzn.to/4qTtHEb BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Outdoor Retailer: https://outdoorretailer.com/ Amazfit T-Rex 3 Pro: https://us.amazfit.com/ Shackelton's Voyage: https://amzn.to/4qRwmOB 57 Hours: https://57hours.com/ Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

September 2, 202659 min

Navigating Transitions With Rebecca Rusch

Today, we're sharing something a little different. My longtime friend Rebecca Rusch invited me onto her podcast, What's The Rusch, to talk about navigating transitions: the ones we choose, and the ones that choose us. Rebecca and I have known each other for over 20 years, since my days as her athlete manager at Red Bull, and this conversation covers a lot of ground: my own path from Red Bull into building Super Rider and Second Nature, the behind-the-scenes story of helping athletes see the light, and some honest reflections on loss, reinvention, and figuring out what comes next. This isn't a regular Second Nature episode, but it felt too good not to share. Enjoy the conversation, and if you like what you hear, go check out the rest of What's The Rusch right here: https://www.rebeccarusch.com/whatstherusch

August 28, 20261 hr 14 min

How To Build a Business, Not Just a Following

Second Nature Listener Survey: https://surveymars.com/q/inCNkLas9 Alyssa Olenick, known online as Doc Lyss, has spent the last eight years building a seven-figure fitness and training business while simultaneously earning a PhD in exercise physiology. She started with $35-a-month one-on-one coaching over Google Sheets and a MacBook that literally overheated. Today she runs a training app, a coaching team, and a quarter-million-follower community built on a simple philosophy: talk to your customers, act fast, and never stop iterating. In this conversation, Alyssa breaks down what it actually took to build a business that didn't feel real until nearly a decade in, why she turned down far more brand deals than she accepted, and what "world-building" really means in modern marketing: the idea that people buy into an identity, not just a product. She also gets candid about the hardest season of her business, the difference between growing a business and running a company, and why she deliberately paused an entire second brand for years because she knew she couldn't do both well at once. This episode is supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Alyssa Olenick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssaolenick/ DocLyssFitness: https://www.instagram.com/doclyssfitness/ The Lyss Method: https://quiz-thelyssmethod.com/ DocLyss Newsletter: https://substack.com/@doclyssfitness DocLyss YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@doclyssfitness Alex Hormozi: https://www.instagram.com/hormozi/?hl=en Shelby Sapp: https://shelbysapp.com/ Codie Sanchez: https://codiesanchez.com/ Yeti: https://www.backcountry.com/brand/yeti ShopMy - Alyssa's Storefront: https://shopmy.us/shop/doclyssfitness NoBull: https://nobullproject.com/ Ozlo Sleepbuds: https://ozlosleep.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: SENIQ: https://seniqbrand.com/ Halfdays: https://www.halfdays.com/ Suunto Race 2: https://www.backcountry.com/suunto-race-2-sport-watch Courtney - Post Hardrock Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYa_fTw01w HoverAir X1 ProMax: https://us.hoverair.com/products/hoverair-x1-self-flying-camera-combo Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

August 21, 20261 hr 3 min

The Bentonville Blueprint, From the People Who Built It

Second Nature Listener Survey: https://surveymars.com/q/inCNkLas9 Gary Vernon, Scott King, and Aimee Ross have been building what is now one of the most significant mountain bike destinations in the world. What started in 2006 as a five-mile trail system in Bentonville, Arkansas has grown into 600 miles of trail across the region, 1,200 miles statewide, and most recently, a lift-access bike park with its own chairlift, restaurant, and membership model. In this conversation, they walk through the design principles that made it work: building for beginners first, focusing on progression, and the decision to build within city limits rather than isolating trails on private land. They also break down the economics of trail building compared to traditional recreational infrastructure, what it actually took to build a 38-trail bike park in under two years, and the advice they give every community that calls asking "how do we become the next Bentonville"...which is, simply, don't try. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Scott King: https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-scott-king-9991a4/ Aimee Ross: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aimeeross/ Gary Vernon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-vernon-ii-58253a7/ Tom Walton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-walton-40b9792ba/ OZ Bike Park: https://oztrailsbikepark.com/ OZ Trails: https://www.oztrails.com/ Discovery Loop: https://www.visitbentonville.com/blog/stories/post/ride-the-loop-bentonvilles-scenic-bike-route/ IMBA: https://www.imba.com/ Transform Your Community (Gary's TED Talk): https://youtu.be/yXJkWIeNP6g?si=p8frsQWhW7CzqJnB IMBA TrailLab: https://www.imba.com/trail-labs Gravity Logic: https://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Cone valve suspension: https://dirtbikemagazine.com/cone-valve-suspension/ Sierra Nevada NA: https://sierranevada.com/brews/trail-pass-ipa Triumph Daytona: https://www.triumphmotorcycles.com/motorcycles/sport/daytona-660 The Design Way (Book): https://amzn.to/4zjfoMS Marin Alpine Trail EXR (Aaron's Bike): https://marinbikes.com/collections/alpine-trail-e Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

August 14, 20261 hr 5 min

The Athlete Who Thinks Like A Founder

Annijke Wade became an adaptive mountain biker in 2021 after a downhill accident left her with a spinal cord injury. Four years later, she's racing at events like SBT Gravel and Sea Otter Classic, running a nonprofit called Dirt Bound that develops para athletes, building a content strategy sophisticated enough to land her in a Meta Creator program, and already planning for goals she can't quite reveal yet for 2027 and 2028. In this conversation, Annijke and Aaron dig into what's changed in adaptive mountain biking over the last five years, how she thinks about building a career that doesn't depend on race results or viral moments, and what it actually takes to convince race organizers to include para athletes. They also get into her content strategy — from 822 followers to 10,000, the loop format, and working with Meta on creator growth — and what brands should look for when building long-term athlete partnerships. Show Notes: Annijke Wade: https://www.instagram.com/geodesicdome/ Bowhead Bikes: https://www.bowheadcorp.com/ Martyn Ashton: https://www.instagram.com/martynashton/ Rideable Now: https://www.rideablenow.com/ Rebecca's Private Idaho: https://www.rebeccasprivateidaho.com/ Annijke's Shreddit Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8_RpvGO6c Dirt Bound: https://www.dirtboundcycling.com/ Dialed Creator Program: https://www.skool.com/dialedcreator/about BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Lael Wilcox: https://www.instagram.com/laelwilcox/ Matador - refillable toothpaste: https://www.matadorequipment.com/products/refillable-toothpaste-tubes Ozlo Sleepbuds: https://ozlosleep.com/ TRTL Neckwrap: https://amzn.to/4pVM8Y0 Any One Of Us (Film): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kKJdHMJJJU Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia #podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business

August 7, 20261 hr 8 min

How One Brand Can Predict the Industry's Next Move

Jill Nazeer is the brand marketing manager at Salsa Cycles and one of the most experienced athlete and content marketers in the bike industry. Before Salsa, she was at Diamondback during one of the most interesting periods in mountain bike content history: when Seth from Berm Peak was just a guy with a cool YouTube channel, and Eric Porter was figuring out what adventure content could look like. She helped build what became one of the most effective creator rosters in the industry, almost by accident. In this conversation, Jill walks through what she learned about athlete marketing at Diamondback, how Salsa's relationship with parent company QBP gives them an unusual data advantage in the industry, and why she spent two years making penny farthing jokes before becoming a true believer in 32-inch wheels. She also gets into what brands get wrong about the DTC vs. bike shop debate, why the bike shop still matters more than most people think, and the Columbia Flat Earther campaign — which might be the most creative brand marketing move of the year. Show Notes: Jill Nazeer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-nazeer-a05b554/ Salsa Cycles: https://www.salsacycles.com/ Eric Porter: https://www.youtube.com/@PorterMTB Berm Peak: https://www.youtube.com/@SethsBikeHacks Mike Hopkins - Dream Ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn1dcZTSAzk Micayla Gatto: https://www.instagram.com/micaylagatto/ QBP: https://www.qbp.com/ Surly: https://surlybikes.com/ Salsa Fargo 32: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/fargo-32 Unbound Gravel: https://www.unboundgravel.com/ Wanderosa: https://www.salsacycles.com/collections/wanderosa SENIQ on Second Nature: https://youtu.be/LUkiabROzdg BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Columbia Expedition Impossible: https://www.columbia.com/expedition-impossible.html Backcountry Slickrock Kit: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/1G2WPB Wild Rye: https://wild-rye.com/ Shredly: https://shredly.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia #podcast #secondnature #outdoor #businesspodcast #outdoorpodcast #industry #athlete #business

July 31, 20261 hr 7 min

What Victoria's Secret Taught Two Founders About the Outdoor Industry

Tina and Madison started SENIQ after nearly a decade building careers at Victoria's Secret and Backcountry — and it turns out the most important lessons they carried into their brand came from a lingerie company, not an outdoor retailer. Growing up in a world where women sat on every leadership team and product innovation was the quarterback of the business shaped how they think about building SENIQ from the ground up. In this conversation, the co-founders of SENIQ walk through the full story — writing their business plan on a template they found online, moving into their parents' basements in Columbus, Ohio to launch, and trusting their gut to launch a ski collection six months in, despite every mentor telling them not to. They also get into how low-res iPhone content consistently outperformed expensive campaign shoots, why co-founders who disagree on everything make better brands, and how to figure out which voices to ignore when you're building something nobody has built before. Second Nature is proudly supported by: Halo: https://poweredbyhalo.com/ Popfly (for brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (for creators): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: Tina Thompson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentinathompson/ Madison Hilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-hilson/ SENIQ: https://seniqbrand.com/ Backcountry: https://www.backcountry.com Business Plan Template: https://offers.hubspot.com/business-plan-template SENIQ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seniq Mattie Sims on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJl441qcZLk BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Primally Pure Deodorant: https://primallypure.com/ Gorpgirls x Oboz: https://obozfootwear.com/pages/oboz-x-gorp-girls Never Slept - Nike Knicks Ad: https://www.instagram.com/reels/DZjR_dosb9x/ Dream Crazier - Nike Ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfX5jeF6k4 Garmin 970: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/L0rY60 Detours With Valentina: https://valentinathompson.substack.com/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

July 24, 20261 hr 17 min

He Never Wanted to Go Viral. That's Why Brands Trust Him.

Tommie Runz started running in 2018, a year after choosing sobriety, and began documenting the journey simply because it felt good to share progress and get encouragement. Seven years later, he's built an audience of over 30,000 through nothing but consistency and honesty — no viral moments, no big follower jumps, just a steady climb built entirely on trust. In this conversation, Tommie and Aaron pick up where they left off after a live panel at TrailCon, digging into what it actually looks like to build a career as an athlete-creator without compromising who you are. Tommie breaks down why he's turned down "ambassador" deals that undervalue creators, how relationships with brands often take years rather than emails to develop, and the moment he realized his content needed to sound exactly like him or it wasn't worth doing at all. Second Nature is supported by Popfly: Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Show Notes: Tommie Runz: https://www.tommierunz.com/ Tommie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Tommie_Runz Tommie on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Tommie_Runz PR Project (Podcast): https://www.youtube.com/c/PRProject/videos Asics: https://www.asics.com/ Mack Baker (Asics): https://www.linkedin.com/in/mack-baker-b6218717/ Cosign Creatives: https://cosignmag.com/cosign-creative-agency/ Tommie Runz Show (Podcast): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tommie-runz-show/id1538233660 Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/ Tommie on Freetrail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7lJd4t12a8 TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Currently: https://currentlyrunning.com/ Best Running Podcasts: https://bestrunningpodcasts.com/ Precision Fuel & Hydration: https://www.precisionhydration.com/ Aaronnomics: https://www.instagram.com/aaronnomics/ Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

July 17, 20261 hr 16 min

State of the Industry: Trail Running at TrailCon

Steve Holmberg and Matt Trappe are back for a debrief on one of the biggest weeks in trail running — Broken Arrow, Western States, and everything in between at TrailCon. Steve breaks down his state-of-the-industry analysis: why trail running's rebrand from "ultra running" unlocked massive new participation, why the sport is about to fragment the way mountain biking did decades ago, and why brands chasing "max" specs are about to pivot to "right" specs built specifically for trail. Then Matt takes listeners inside a project few people got to experience firsthand — a house in Tahoe built with Skratch and other partners, designed to bring brand leaders, athletes, and creators together without competitive walls. He explains the intention behind it, what happened when 37 of 40 people in the room spoke up during an unscripted conversation, and why some of the best moments of the week happened specifically because they weren't being recorded. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Steve Holmberg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenholmberg/ Matt Trappe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-trappe/ Insight Accelerator: https://insight-accelerator.com/ Matter of Brand: https://amatterofbrand.substack.com/ TrailCon: https://www.trailconference.com Tommie Runz: https://www.instagram.com/tommie_runz/ Salomon TV - Trail Dogs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05sUhlxFBk0 Salomon TV - Bill Dooper: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF8ZdwpnTLQ WSJ on Trail Runners: https://www.wsj.com/style/fashion/trail-running-footwear-9d39a2c6 Broken Arrow: https://www.brokenarrowskyrace.com/ ACG: https://www.nike.com/acg Freetrail: https://www.freetrail.com Tantrums: https://tantrums.run/ Amazfit: https://us.amazfit.com/ Skratch: https://www.skratchlabs.com/ SF Run Co: https://store.sfrunco.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Hilary Yang "Raise The Bar": https://www.thehilaryann.com/raise-the-bar Marin Rift Zone EL XR: https://marinbikes.com/products/2025-rift-zone-el-xr-int Golden Hour Racing Shirt: https://auteursportif.com/collections/golden-hour-racing-capsule Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

July 10, 20261 hr 19 min

The Last Time Someone Reinvented Camping Was 1962

Matt Oesterle built his first company, Callisto Media, from zero to $85 million in revenue by using data to disrupt the book publishing industry. Then he sold it to Penguin Random House and asked himself: what's the next industry that hasn't been forced to evolve? The answer was camping — an industry whose biggest brands were founded in the 1960s and haven't changed much since. In this conversation, Matt walks through the framework he uses to pick businesses, how he designed the Ramble campground experience from scratch, and what it takes to build a hospitality brand that maintains a 4.98-star review score while scaling to 100+ locations. He also gets into the role of data versus instinct in entrepreneurship, why type two fun is a hiring requirement for his team, and why you don't have to be a sociopath to build something great. If you've ever looked at an industry and thought "someone should fix this" — this is the episode for you. Show Notes: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Athletes: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Matt Oesterle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oesterle/ Ramble Campgrounds: https://ramble.camp/ Next Ventures: https://www.nextventures.com/ Mel Strong on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcjUzrM3Jg Callisto Media: https://www.sourcebooks.com/callisto HipCamp: https://www.hipcamp.com/ Net Promoter Score (Term): https://www.qualtrics.com/articles/customer-experience/net-promoter-score/ Solo Stove: https://www.solostove.com/ Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/ The Everything Store (Book): https://amzn.to/4vpM8kx BPC - Brand, Product, Content: RAB: https://rab.equipment/ The Algorithm (Book): https://amzn.to/4aOzKTJ MFM Pod - The Algorithm Author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG4TwQEYdBY New Yorker Profile - Sam Altman: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/04/13/sam-altman-may-control-our-future-can-he-be-trusted *** Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia