Second Nature

Hosted by Dylan Bowman & Aaron Lutze

Business Sports

Website RSS feed

Episodes

182

Latest episode

Oct 2026

Language

EN-US

About the show

The business of outdoor hosted by Aaron Lutze & Dylan Bowman

Listen to episodes

60 recent

November 6, 20261 hr 7 min

Some Things Never Change

Dan Coe, who writes The Brand Report and spent years at Nike, joins Aaron and Dylan to break down the "primitives" he believes decide whether a young brand survives. Marketing technology keeps changing and the funnel has collapsed into a single swipe, but Dan argues that why people buy hasn't changed, and that the basics are where small brands can beat big ones. They work through three of them: knowing your customer down to a single person and being for someone rather than everyone; showing that customer the brand is for people like them through episodic content, with examples from Huckberry, Burton, Bandit's Unsponsored Project and a cafe that gives free coffee to anyone who dances; and selling transformation instead of features. Along the way they get into whether brands should resist growing beyond their core, what brand marketing is really for and how to measure it, what a brand and a community actually are, why Dan chose depth over dopamine for The Brand Report, and the moment Aaron realized his own YouTube titles were selling technique instead of outcome. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: The Brand Report: https://www.thebrand.report Dan Coe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/d-coe/ Mattie Sims Pod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJl441qcZLk For The Culture (Book): https://bookshop.org/a/128566/9781541700963 The Brand Report - Burton: https://thebrand.report/articles/burton-five-eras Huckberry on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Huckberryco Yeti Presents: https://www.yeti.com/films.html Brooklyn Coffee (IG): https://www.instagram.com/bkcoffeeshop/ Coffee Milano (IG): https://www.instagram.com/coffeemilanocafe/ Terignota on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@terignota Backcountry (Aaron's Link!): https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/enE9bO Bandit Unsponsored: https://banditrunning.com/pages/unsponsored-project Tempo Journal - Tim West Interview: https://tempojournal.com/article/dripping-sweat Michael Mazzara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-mazzara-967a1431/ Kith: https://kith.com/ Raide Research: https://raideresearch.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Primal Intelligence (Book): https://bookshop.org/a/128566/9780593715307 Rick Rubin x Angus Fletcher podcast: https://www.tetragrammaton.com/podcast/angus-fletcher Sclar PBJ Hardtail: https://sklarbikes.com/products/pbj Sondur Travel: https://sondurtravel.com/ Kylian Mbappe x On: https://press.on-running.com/on-enters-football-alongside-kylian-mbappe Connect With Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

October 30, 20261 hr 15 min

The Light At The End Of The Tunnel

The Bro Pod is back! Dylan returns to Second Nature for a proper catch up after a summer on the road, and he and Aaron catch up on the year so far. Dylan looks back on his Hardrock experience, an incredibly booked up summer, and the slump that arrives every October. Aaron shares what seven years of consistency finally looks like: every Super Rider platform now past 100,000 followers, and no longer having to pitch himself relentlessly to get work. From there they dig into what it takes to build a business in 2026, when anyone can copy what you do. They cover Rapha's recent turbulence, the newer brands carrying its torch, and why being for a specific group of people may be the best protection. Along the way: holding equity in a company with a delayed IPO, Hunter S. Thompson and choosing three decisions to follow through on instead of worrying about thirty, why acquisition isn't the only measure of success, an Enneagram check on both hosts, and a special BPC that includes a "first" for the pod. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Freetrail: https://www.freetrail.com Super Rider: https://www.instagram.com/superridertv YaBoyScottJurek Meme: https://www.instagram.com/p/DOA6gfxjViG/?img_index=5 Marin Bikes: https://marinbikes.com/ Rapha on Escape Collective: https://escapecollective.com/the-real-reason-rapha-became-uncool/ The Brand Report: https://thebrand.report/ Borderlands episode with Dylan: https://www.borderlands.cc/podcasts/dylan-bowman-is-still-figuring-it-out/ Andrew Ross Sorkin: https://www.andrewrosssorkin.com/ Enneagram Made Easy (Book): https://bookshop.org/a/128566/9780062510266 Enneagram Test: https://www.truity.com/test/enneagram-personality-test Christian Rawles: https://www.christianrawles.com/ Invisible Work Newsletter: https://join.christianrawles.com/signup Christian Rawles on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVPKsO0O8us BPC - Brand, Product, Content: The Coffee Ride: https://thecoffeeride.com/ Gumtree Golf + Nature: https://www.gumtreegolfandnature.com/ Roll The Calls (Book): https://bookshop.org/a/128566/9798217209347 Connect With Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

October 23, 20261 hr 10 min

She Wore the Same Broken Helmet for 10 Years, Then Built Her Own

Lizzie Shilko wore the same busted ski helmet for more than 10 years, the foam coming loose from its shell, and every year she looked for a replacement worth buying and found nothing she liked. So she wrote a business plan in her notes app and built the helmet herself. Now just over a year into Revi, she joins Second Nature to trace the path from that note to product on retail shelves: why putting a helmet on someone's head sells it better than any website copy, the customers who walked into ski shops and pitched Revi to buyers unprompted, and how sharing her story on TikTok, shot on her phone, put her in front of two major retailers who reached out by DM. Lizzie also shares what she's learned about showing your work as a founder, why she's choosing slower, more deliberate retail growth over launching more products, how Backcountry Garage fits in, and what she took away from a week at her manufacturer overseeing safety testing. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Lizzie Shilko: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizzieshilko/ Revi Helmets: https://revigear.com/ KORE Podcast with Lizzie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5uP3npGP0 Backcountry Garage: https://www.backcountry.com/rc/backcountry-garage Revi on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lizzieshilko Revi on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/revigear/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Gear Envie: https://www.gearenvie.com/ Built Puff Bars: https://amzn.to/4sr61b3 David Milkshakes: https://amzn.to/3TEBTfl Connect With Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

October 16, 20261 hr 4 min

The Most Overlooked Health Category Nobody Built - Until Now.

Allie Melnick, co-founder of Climatic, joins Second Nature to talk about building an entirely new health category: proactive lung health. A ten-year veteran of Harry's (now Mammoth Brands), Melnick explains why breathing, not legs, not sleep, not gut health, might be the next frontier in everyday performance, and what it actually takes to convince people a problem exists before you can sell them the solution. She and Aaron dig into Climatic's L-MAX inhaler, the sheep-lung testing and Mount Sinai clinical research behind it, and the surprising communities who found the product before the company expected them to. The conversation also covers the discipline it took to stay patient through a sold-out, scarcity-driven launch, and closes with an unplanned detour into the hidden world of startup advising: how operators with full-time jobs can build equity and expertise on the side, and why a sharp, one-sentence pitch beats being a Swiss Army knife. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Allie Melnick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/allie-melnick-4269034/ Climatic: https://www.climatichealth.com/ Harry's: https://www.harrys.com/ Seed: https://seed.com/ Mount Sinai Study: https://insider.fitt.co/press-release/mount-sinai-medical-center-researcher-co-authors-peer-reviewed-study-on-inhaled-formulations-designed-to-strengthen-the-lungs-natural-defenses/ Performance Advisory Board: https://insider.fitt.co/press-release/climatic-launches-performance-advisory-board-to-advance-daily-lung-health-as-the-next-frontier-in-wellness/ Mentorpass: https://www.mentorpass.co/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Loonen Water: https://loonen.com/ Defense Soap: https://amzn.to/47qT1Z4 Find Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

October 9, 20261 hr 3 min

Building A New Category: The Signal Was The Strategy

John Schade first discovered Dry Brew:a patented, waterless, ready-to-eat cup of coffee, while searching for something better than a mediocre coffee gummy he'd seen on Shark Tank. He reached out to the original founders immediately. It took over five years, and a random cold email in 2024, before he finally got the chance to help build it. In this conversation, recorded after meeting at Outdoor Retailer through Popfly's Wild Reach program, John walks through Dry Brew's go-to-market journey, starting in aviation with pilots who instantly understood the product, then following that same signal into trade shows, outdoor specialty retail, and eventually Target. He also gets into the patent that protects the entire category, why packaging has to do all the talking on a retail shelf, and the wild, unexpected use cases customers keep finding - including a police officer who uses it for 2am hostage negotiation call-outs. BONUS: The team at Dry Brew has shared a 20% discount link for Second Nature listeners. You can use this link (or type in SecondNature20 at checkout) for your order: https://drybrew.com/discount/ SecondNature20 Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Dry Brew: https://drybrew.com/ John Schade: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnschade/ Dry Brew on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drybrew Dry Brew on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drybrew Final Boss Sour: https://finalbosssour.com/ Neurogum: https://neurogum.com/ Nathan's Gum: https://nathanandsons.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Veloci: https://velocirunning.com/ Bookshop.org (Second Nature Books!): https://bookshop.org/shop/secondnature Find Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

October 2, 20261 hr 11 min

How A Brand From The Bottom Of The World Went Global

Hamish and Hannah Acland, co-founders of Mons Royale, join Second Nature to tell the story of building a global merino wool brand from Wanaka, New Zealand. The brand started with an email titled "Anatomy of an Idea" that brought the two of them together. They talk through the founding insight that base layers were the one piece of ski gear nobody had bothered to make exciting, and how they set out to build a global brand from day one rather than a New Zealand one, despite a disastrous first trade show and years of razor-thin margins as distributors took their cut. Hamish and Hannah are candid about the harder second chapter of the business: losing their creative conviction under pressure from wholesalers, the challenge of scaling a founder-led vision into a real team, and the ongoing tension between growth and funding. They also get into how "action sports can better people and planet" became the brand's operating mission over the language of sustainability, why Mons Royale built an athlete program when visibility wasn't even possible for a base-layer brand, and what it's taught them about resilience, team-building, and staying global-minded from a town of a few thousand people at the bottom of the world. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Mons Royale: https://monsroyale.com/ Hamish Acland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishacland/ Hannah Acland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-acland/ ISPO: https://www.ispo.com/ Mattie Sims on Second Nature: https://youtu.be/tJl441qcZLk Robin Goomes: https://www.youtube.com/@robin_riding_hood Future Ground Event: https://monsroyale.com/blogs/news/future-ground-full-video BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Keen Shoes: https://www.keenfootwear.com/ Belonging (Book): https://bookshop.org/a/128566/9781529410310 Insta360 X6: https://store.insta360.com/consumer?utm_term=SUPERRIDER Find Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

September 25, 20261 hr 1 min

Wisdom From A Decade Of Affiliate Marketing

Angie Burnett has spent over a decade in affiliate marketing — starting with coupon sites at 1-800 Contacts, moving through fashion e-commerce, and now leading influencer and affiliate partnerships at Backcountry, a 30-year-old brand she's helped modernize for the creator economy. Recorded live at Outdoor Retailer, this conversation goes deep on what most people get wrong about affiliate marketing and what the best creators and brands are doing differently right now. Angie breaks down why "owning your audience" matters more than ever and how she evaluates creators beyond follower counts (including a surprising use of Reddit and Meta's Creator tools). She also walks through what it actually takes to build an affiliate program from scratch, why newsletters are a much harder affiliate channel than people assume, and how YouTube's new shopping integration is changing the game for creators. Second Nature Is Supported By: Popfly (For Brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (For Creators/Athletes): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Angie Burnett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angieburnett/ Backcountry: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/enE9bO Popfly: https://www.popfly.com Wasatch Adventure Dress: https://backcountrycreator.tnu8.net/ZVzG0W Avantlink: https://www.avantlink.com Impact: https://www.impact.com Clique Agency: https://cliqueaffiliate.com/ MarTec Record (Slack): https://martechrecord.com/industry-surveys-reports-and-data/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Koala Eco Veggie Wash: https://www.koalaeco.com/ DryBrew: https://drybrew.com/ Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

September 18, 202659 min

Building in Public: A Basecamp From the Ground Up

YJ Tung is building Foresthill Basecamp — a performance lodge with ten modular cabins at mile 62 of the Western States Trail, featuring saunas, cold plunges, and everything an endurance athlete could want after a long day on the trail. The idea started after a three-hour delirious drive home from his first ultra, and it's now becoming real through a combination of validation, relationship-building, and no small amount of serendipity. In this conversation, YJ walks through how he and his business partner validated the concept with just $15-20 a day in Meta ads before building anything, how a chance connection in the Second Nature Slack turned into real partnership support, and what it's been like to work his first-ever trade show booth at TrailCon. He also gets candid about losing his father, managing the imposter syndrome that comes with pursuing something this ambitious, and why he's convinced he's exactly the right person to bring this particular idea to life. Second Nature is proudly supported by: Halo: https://poweredbyhalo.com/ Popfly (for brands): https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly (for creators): https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: YJ Tung: https://www.linkedin.com/in/youngjohntung/ Miwok 100k: https://miwok100k.com/ Isaac French: https://www.isaacjfrench.com/ Unreasonable Hospitality (Book): https://amzn.to/3UZex4c Sally McRae - Western States Film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHoXgYPvj6o East Peak: https://www.runeastpeak.com/ SF Run Co: https://store.sfrunco.com/ TrailCon: https://trailconference.com/ Foresthill Basecamp on IndieGogo: https://www.indiegogo.com/en/projects/foresthill_basecamp/fhbc Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy: https://amzn.to/4y3e27R Second Nature Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Autocamp: https://autocamp.com/ Ramble podcast episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFqLCAyEvY Snowpeak: https://www.snowpeak.com/ mammoth trailfest: https://www.mammothtrailfest.com/ BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Trail Work (Book): https://amzn.to/4d1VJrp Without A Doubt - Braydon Bringhurst: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIWGC_qnBO4 Find Us: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

September 11, 20261 hr 9 min

The Business Behind the Best Activation at UTMB (And Beyond)

Hilary Fenet just pulled off one of the most talked-about brand activations at UTMB — a full hotel takeover in Chamonix for Rabbit, complete with a clubhouse for the week, community breakfasts, and an espresso cart in the parking lot. But the company behind it, Halo, started with a much smaller and much less glamorous moment: Hilary booking a hotel on the wrong side of a mountain before a race in the Italian Dolomites. In this conversation, Hilary walks through how a bad hotel booking turned into a genuine business insight — brands were building incredible experiences for their sponsored athletes, but ignoring the people actually buying their gear. She breaks down how Halo builds these activations from the ground up, the data that makes the case for in-person experience over pure digital marketing, and what it actually takes to scale something this bespoke to multiple events happening around the world at once. Second Nature is proudly supported by Halo and Popfly: Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Show Notes: Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Hilary Fenet: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilary-fenet-b2b2358/ Rabbit: https://www.runinrabbit.com/ Monica DeVreese: https://www.linkedin.com/in/monid/ Dolomite Skyrace: https://www.dolomitemountains.com/en/resources/dolomites-tips/sky-race-in-the-dolomites Aravaipa: https://www.aravaiparunning.com/ Citadel Investment Group: https://www.citadel.com/ SAFE Note: https://carta.com/learn/startups/fundraising/convertible-securities/safes/ Athletic Brewing on Second Nature: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZyMp1XsPs BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Rabbit: https://www.runinrabbit.com/ Theo of Golden (Book): https://amzn.to/4xliEF3 Climatic: https://www.climatichealth.com/ War of Art (Book): https://amzn.to/4h2vkuE Shoe Dog (Book): https://amzn.to/4A5RSmL Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia

September 4, 20261 hr 9 min

What Farmers Taught Him About Building A Company

Taylor Hoekstra spent years selling products through an unlikely channel — farmer YouTubers — years before anyone called it the "creator economy." That experience taught him something most people in the outdoor industry hadn't figured out yet, and it planted the seed for Popfly. Before writing a line of code, Taylor spent two years and roughly 500 conversations validating the idea, testing a simple question: would people actually pay for this? In this conversation, recorded live at Outdoor Retailer, Taylor walks through the classic cold-start problem every founder building a two-sided marketplace has to solve — get supply first, use supply to pull in demand, then reinvest in supply relentlessly. He also gets honest about the early years trying to convince outdoor brands that working with creators was worth their marketing budget, long before it was an easy sell. Second Nature is proudly supported by Popfly and Halo: Popfly for Brands: https://popf.ly/secondnaturebrands Popfly for Creators: https://popf.ly/secondnaturecreators Halo: https://www.poweredbyhalo.com Show Notes: Taylor Hoekstra: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taylorhoekstra/ Popfly: https://www.popfly.com Camp Chef: https://www.campchef.com/ Cold Start Problem: https://amzn.to/4qTtHEb BPC - Brand, Product, Content: Outdoor Retailer: https://outdoorretailer.com/ Amazfit T-Rex 3 Pro: https://us.amazfit.com/ Shackelton's Voyage: https://amzn.to/4qRwmOB 57 Hours: https://57hours.com/ Fun Stuff: Join us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/second-nature-media Meet us on Slack: https://www.launchpass.com/second-nature Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/secondnature.media Subscribe to our newsletter: https://www.secondnature.media Subscribe to the YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@secondnaturemedia