Our Agile Tales by Mun-Wai Chung & JF Unson

June 16, 2026Episode 425 min

[Episode 4] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

Welcome to our Agile Tales as we continue our conversations with Rich Sheridan, founder, CEO, and chief storyteller at Menlo Innovations.Aside from founding and leading Menlo Innovations, Rich is also the author of the best-selling books Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer, which argue that joy is essential to productivity and profitability in the workplace. Rich recounts his journey from early programming success and a rapid rise to VP to feeling despondent amid chaotic, late, over-budget software delivery, which sparked a search for better ways to organize people. In this episode, Rich explains Menlo’s “High Tech Anthropology,” a patented term for designers who study end users in their native environments to learn workflows and vocabulary, aiming to end “human suffering” caused by technology and create software that delights without manuals or training. He shares examples of widespread frustration with systems such as electronic medical records and ERP systems, then revisits the Langley vs. Wright brothers story to highlight purpose-driven discovery. He then presents an airplane model for organizations: lift of human energy over the weight of bureaucracy, and thrust of purpose over the drag of fear, emphasizing clarity, completing meaningful work, reducing meeting load, taking action through experiments, and eliminating fear-based management.00:00 Welcome to Our Agile Tales01:46 High Tech Anthropology Explained04:30 Designing for Real Users06:59 Why Software Causes Suffering09:14 Wright Brothers Purpose Story14:23 Airplane Model for Organizations16:44 Lift Human Energy at Work19:09 Meetings and Bureaucracy Trap22:17 Drag of Fear Leadership24:39 Closing and Next EpisodeAbout Rich SheridanRich Sheridan is the CEO and Chief Storyteller at Menlo Innovations and the best-selling author of Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer. He has spent years traveling across four continents and nearly 20 countries, helping organizations rethink not just how they work but also what it feels like to be part of them. His core message is simple: joy isn’t optional—it’s essential to productivity, profitability, and real team energy.Rich’s ideas have been featured in Forbes, Inc., NPR, and Harvard Business Review. What sets him apart is that he’s been living these principles for over 20 years at Menlo, the company he co-founded in Ann Arbor, Michigan—now known worldwide for its uniquely joyful culture.Follow Rich Sheridan at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/menloprezYou can check out Menlo Innovations' tours and workshops at: https://menloinnovations.com/tours-and-workshopsMusic: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

June 2, 2026Episode 326 min

[Episode 3] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

Welcome to our Agile Tales as we continue our conversations with Rich Sheridan, founder, CEO, and chief storyteller at Menlo Innovations.Aside from founding and leading Menlo Innovations, Rich is also the author of the best-selling books Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer, which argue that joy is essential to productivity and profitability in the workplace. Rich recounts his journey from early programming success and a rapid rise to VP to feeling despondent amid chaotic, late, over-budget software delivery, which sparked a search for better ways to organize people. In this episode, we asked Rich whether removing meetings changes culture, and he avoids a blanket “no meetings” rule and instead distinguishes unproductive meetings from structured rituals (kickoffs, estimation, show-and-tell, planning games) with clear roles, artifacts, decision capture, and visible system effects, drawing on systems thinking from Peter Senge’s The Fifth Discipline. He argues disengagement reflects management’s failure to create conditions and an intentional culture (at Menlo, defined by “joy” and expected behaviors like pairing and sharing). He urges an external focus that extends even to employees’ families, citing Menlo’s practice of allowing newborns at work. To overcome “that won’t work here” drag from anyone, he advocates “Let’s try it before we defeat it—run the experiment,” emphasizing small, low-risk experiments, trust, and purpose as a simple, memorable guide through tough times and culture shifts like mergers, reinforced through daily practices and HR processes (noting Menlo has no HR department).Key topics and timestamps:00:00 Welcome to Our Agile Tales01:37 Meetings vs Rituals03:58 Systems That Reduce Drag05:31 Intentional Culture Basics06:56 Beyond Customers Impact08:14 Babies at Work Story11:51 Try It Before Defeat15:39 Experiment Culture Spreads18:28 Measuring Experiments Trust19:56 Purpose That Endures Storms22:37 Transform Default Culture26:16 ClosingAbout Rich SheridanRich Sheridan is the CEO and Chief Storyteller at Menlo Innovations and the best-selling author of Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer. He has spent years traveling across four continents and nearly 20 countries, helping organizations rethink not just how they work but also what it feels like to be part of them. His core message is simple: joy isn’t optional—it’s essential to productivity, profitability, and real team energy.Rich’s ideas have been featured in Forbes, Inc., NPR, and Harvard Business Review. What sets him apart is that he’s been living these principles for over 20 years at Menlo, the company he co-founded in Ann Arbor, Michigan—now known worldwide for its uniquely joyful culture.Follow Rich Sheridan at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/menloprezYou can check out Menlo Innovations' tours and workshops at: https://menloinnovations.com/tours-and-workshopsVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

May 19, 2026Episode 230 min

[Episode 2] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

Welcome to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversations with Rich Sheridan, founder, CEO and chief story teller at Menlo Innovations.Aside from founding and leading Menlo Innovations, Rich is also the author of the bests-selling books, Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer, whose message is that joy is essential to productivity and profitability in the workplace. Rich recounts his journey from early programming success and a rapid rise to VP to feeling despondent amid chaotic, late, over-budget software delivery, which sparked a search for better ways to organize people. In this episode Rich argues that fear shuts down the brain functions organizations need—creativity, imagination, invention, and innovation—and describes common, often subtle, fear-inducing management behaviors like overload, ambiguity, and constant reprioritization. He shares a Menlo Innovation story where he inadvertently scolded an employee under a poster reading “It's okay to say I don’t know,” and how a long-tenured teammate compassionately held him accountable, leading to an apology and learning. Using an airplane analogy, he maps organizational success to increasing human energy (lift) over bureaucracy (weight), strengthening purpose (thrust), and reducing fear (drag). He explains how Menlo pumps fear out through pair programming, frequent pairing rotation, an interview process emphasizing helping others succeed, leading without bosses, and replacing long status meetings with a short daily standup that exposes problems without solving them in-meeting.Key topics and timestamps:00:00 Welcome to Our Agile Tales01:46 Fear Kills Innovation04:59 Everyday Fear Triggers08:04 Owning Your Mistakes12:19 Why Fear Lingers13:59 Airplane Forces Model19:05 Defining Human Energy21:22 Pumping Fear Out24:41 Leading Without Bosses27:17 Meetings That Drain Teams27:37 Daily Standup Fix29:54 Closing About Rich SheridanRich Sheridan is the CEO and Chief Storyteller at Menlo Innovations and the best-selling author of Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer. He has spent years traveling across four continents and nearly 20 countries, helping organizations rethink not just how they work, but how it feels to be part of them. His core message is simple: joy isn’t optional—it’s essential to productivity, profitability, and real team energy.Rich’s ideas have been featured in Forbes, Inc., NPR, and Harvard Business Review. What sets him apart is that he’s been living these principles for over 20 years at Menlo, the company he co-founded in Ann Arbor, Michigan—now known worldwide for its uniquely joyful culture.Follow Rich Sheridan at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/menloprezYou can check out Menlo Innovations tours and workshop at: https://menloinnovations.com/tours-and-workshopsMusic: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

May 5, 2026Episode 130 min

[Episode 1] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

Welcome to Our Agile Tales as we start off this new season with Rich Sheridan, founder, CEO and chief story teller at Menlo Innovations.Aside from founding and leading Menlo Innovations, Rich is also the author of the bests-selling books, Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer, whose message is that joy is essential to productivity and profitability in the workplace. Rich recounts his journey from early programming success and a rapid rise to VP to feeling despondent amid chaotic, late, over-budget software delivery, which sparked a search for better ways to organize people. He defines workplace joy as externally focused delight in serving end users, distinct from perks or simple happiness. He describes an “aha” moment when his eight-year-old daughter observed that no one could make decisions without him, revealing a hero-based organization, and a “click” moment in 1999 influenced by Kent Beck’s Extreme Programming Explained, IDEO’s Nightline segment, and meeting his co-founder, James Goebel.Rich details early resistance to pair programming, how experiments and a “Java factory” open-room approach shifted behavior, and how the internet bubble burst led him to found Menlo Innovations in 2001. He explains how IBM tours and a conference invitation launched his storytelling and how Edison’s Menlo lab inspired Menlo’s name, concluding that the risk of change was less than the risk of staying the same.Key topics and timestamps:00:00 Welcome to Our Agile Tales00:22 Meet Rich Sheridan02:30 From Programmer to Burnout05:53 Defining Joy at Work08:21 Aha Moment Leadership Shift10:36 Click Moment XP and IDEO12:53 Pairing Experiment Begins15:54 Java Factory Culture Change19:19 Menlo Innovations Is Born20:59 Joyful Workdays No Overtime22:38 Tour Guide to Storyteller28:04 Risk of Change vs Staying30:05 ClosingAbout Rich SheridanRich Sheridan is the CEO and Chief Storyteller at Menlo Innovations and the best-selling author of Joy Inc. and Chief Joy Officer. He has spent years traveling across four continents and nearly 20 countries, helping organizations rethink not just how they work, but how it feels to be part of them. His core message is simple: joy isn’t optional—it’s essential to productivity, profitability, and real team energy.Rich’s ideas have been featured in Forbes, Inc., NPR, and Harvard Business Review. What sets him apart is that he’s been living these principles for over 20 years at Menlo, the company he co-founded in Ann Arbor, Michigan—now known worldwide for its uniquely joyful culture.Follow Rich Sheridan at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/menloprezMusic: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

April 21, 2026Episode 826 min

[Episode 8] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this final episode of the series, we discuss with Bjarte what distinguishes business models (external interaction) from management models (internal organization). He introduces the Viable Map, inspired by the Business Model Canvas, to help management teams assess their management model against the 12 Beyond Budgeting principles, considering business environment from SUSO (simple, understood, stable, orderly) to VUCA and employees on a Theory X–Y scale. He emphasizes the need for coherence between values/purpose-based leadership claims and often “fixed” budgeting processes, calling mismatches “poisonous gaps.” He argues listed companies can adopt beyond budgeting, as markets want sustainable performance, and recommends starting by separating budget purposes—targets, forecasts, and resource allocation—implemented in parallel. He contrasts beyond budgeting’s enterprise-wide focus with Agile’s origins in software, shares disappointing and rewarding client experiences, and points listeners to bbrt.org and key books.Key topics and timestamps00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro01:09 Business vs Management Models01:59 Viable Map Framework05:16 Assessing Coherence Gaps08:02 Empowerment Needs Process Change09:40 Markets Wall Street Myths12:08 Why Beyond Budgeting Sticks14:34 Where to Start Separating Budgets17:45 Pilots vs Big Bang19:12 Disappointing Transformation Story21:20 Most Rewarding Successes23:06 Learn More About Beyond Budgeting25:20 Wrap Up and Next SeriesAbout Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human.Follow Bjarte at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Music: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

April 7, 2026Episode 727 min

[Episode 7] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this episode, we discuss with Bjarte how target setting evolved at Equinor from 2005 onward through separating target setting, forecasting, and resource allocation, including allowing indicators without targets and emphasizing team-set, often more ambitious goals and relative “reality targets” versus peers. Bjarte says Beyond Budgeting adoption spans many industries, is stronger in Europe, and is equally relevant in the public sector, citing Norway’s NAV contact centers eliminating cost budgets and a 12,000-inhabitant municipality using self-managed teams, continuous decisions, and stakeholder alignment while still submitting an external “budget.” He argues budgets embed distrust and predictability assumptions, making true agility impossible without Beyond Budgeting, challenges absolute annual financial targets, and advocates relative targets, holistic evaluation, and common incentives. Finally, he describes surveys by Boston Consulting Group and Bain & Company linking Beyond Budgeting to benefits like higher sales and leading financial planning practices.Key topics and timestamps00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro01:06 Evolving Targets at Equinor03:39 Who Adopts Beyond Budgeting05:14 Public Sector Breakthroughs05:41 NAV Pilot No Cost Budgets07:10 Municipality Self Managed Teams10:00 Funding Constraints Not Earmarks14:24 Why Budgets Block Agility18:24 No Budget No Targets22:09 Forecasting and Ambition23:28 Consulting Surveys and Benefits27:16 Wrap Up and Next EpisodeAbout Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human.Follow Bjarte at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Music: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

March 24, 2026Episode 628 min

[Episode 6] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this episode, we ask why Silicon Valley firms rarely appear in Beyond Budgeting case studies; Bjarte posits that these companies excel at technology innovation but fear management innovation, sometimes reinforced by IPO-focused CFOs, though being public is not a true barrier (Many Beyond Budgeting adopters are listed on Wall Street.) He explains Beyond Budgeting can improve performance in both good and tough times and cites Handelsbanken’s long-term stability. The discussion covers Morningstar’s self-management and the need for enterprise-wide coherence, then Haier’s radical micro-enterprise model and rapid evolution.Finally, Bjarte details Equinor’s (formerly Statoil) beyond budgeting journey since 2005 via “Ambition to Action,” integrating strategy, risk, actions/forecasting, indicators, and HR with a 50/50 split between “what” and “how,” emphasizing transparency, event-driven cadence, decentralized ownership, and holistic performance evaluation.Key topics and timestamps00:00 Welcome01:05 Why Silicon Valley Lags in Management Innovation04:11 Public Markets and Budgets04:53 Boom Bust and Stability06:40 Morningstar and Self Management08:48 Haier Radical Micro Enterprises13:00 Equinor Beyond Budgeting Origins16:32 Ambition to Action Framework20:11 Alignment Cadence and Transparency25:37 Holistic Performance Evaluation28:15 Wrap Up and ConclusionAbout Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human.Follow Bjarte at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Music: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

March 10, 2026Episode 528 min

[Episode 5] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this episode, Bjarte discusses David Lloyd Clubs’ Beyond Budgeting shift starting in October 2019 and how it helped during the 2020 pandemic through greater local autonomy and faster, more continuous funding decisions. He explains the core change of separating budget purposes into distinct processes for target setting, forecasting (as non-binding forecasts), and resource allocation, with more local decision-making and a revised cadence beyond annual budgets. Bogsnes addresses budget gaming by isolating it to target setting and using relative performance and transparency to encourage improvement while avoiding naming-and-shaming, emphasizing holistic performance evaluation when measures are absolute. The conversation also covers beyond budgeting relevance to the public sector via a pilot in Sogndal Municipality, Norway, and TDR Capital’s role as a private equity owner encouraging portfolio companies to adopt beyond budgeting, including examples like Stonegate and BPP.Key topics and timestamps00:00 Welcome01:06 Pandemic Autonomy Lessons02:54 Separating Budget Purposes06:11 Funding Autonomy And Cadence07:28 Stopping Gaming With Benchmarks12:31 Transparency Without Shaming14:24 All 12 Principles In Practice15:05 Beyond Budgeting In Government20:04 Collaboration And Member Impact22:45 TDR Capital’s Playbook25:41 How To Start The Journey27:15 Private Equity Differentiator28:11 Wrap Up and ConclusionAbout Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human.Follow Bjarte at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Music: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

February 24, 2026Episode 429 min

[Episode 4] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this episode, we examine Beyond Budgeting through two case studies: Miles and David Lloyd Clubs.Miles is a Norwegian IT consulting company founded in reaction to command-and-control micromanagement. It operates without budgets and with minimal KPIs, guided by an evergreen financial ambition of maintaining a profit margin above 10% without cascaded targets or bonus links. Employees enjoy wide autonomy, with transparency as the primary control mechanism: purchases and training costs are posted on the intranet for shared learning.Miles places strong emphasis on recruitment and cultural fit, taking at least ten references and interviewing for beliefs, values, and attitudes. Employees assess technical skills and can veto candidates. The company invests heavily in social cohesion, including spouse-only events, and practices servant leadership, with the CEO retitling himself “Chief Servant Leader.” Bjarte notes that Miles was essentially “born beyond budgeting” and has sustained its principles through growth by consciously resisting bureaucracy, including internal leadership succession.The second case study, David Lloyd Clubs, a high-end UK gym chain with around 300 clubs, represents one of the fastest Beyond Budgeting implementations Bjarte has seen: launched in October 2019 and fully budget-free by January 2021. The model helped the company not only survive COVID-19 but emerge stronger.Key practices included increased club autonomy, strong internal benchmarking, transparency, and local involvement in KPI selection. Central target setting was reduced, with emphasis on relative performance rather than detailed annual targets tied to bonuses.Ownership by private equity firm TDR Capital supported the shift, focusing on leadership and management improvement rather than cost-cutting.Bjarte attributes the speed to strong owner backing, a capable controller leading the effort, and a supportive CEO, while noting that mindset change takes longer than process change. HR played a key role in shifting performance evaluation toward relative measures and maintaining shared club-level bonuses instead of individual incentives.Key topics and timestamps00:00 Welcome01:07 Miles Overview02:47 Transparency Over Budgets04:15 Recruiting and Culture06:05 Servant Leadership06:46 Born Beyond Budgeting10:37 Sustaining Beliefs at Scale12:23 David Lloyd Clubs13:09 Rapid Rollout13:56 Benchmarking and Rhythm17:41 Why It Worked20:53 Relative Performance24:45 Transparency and Learning26:47 HR and Rewards28:15 Results and ConclusionAbout Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human.Follow Bjarte at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Music: https://www.purple-planet.comVisit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

February 3, 2026Episode 325 min

[Episode 3] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

Welcome back to Our Agile Tales, where we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes to go over case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. His new book distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.In this episode of 'Our Agile Tales,' we welcome back Bjarte Bogsnes, Chairman of Beyond Budgeting Round Table, to explore the principles and practices of Beyond Budgeting. Bogsnes shares his extensive experience and insights on how Beyond Budgeting can drive performance by empowering employees and promoting coherence across management processes. The conversation delves into Handelsbanken's unique approach to employee bonuses, performance reviews, promotions, and training, highlighting the bank's emphasis on long-term employee development and consistent management philosophies. This episode offers valuable lessons for companies looking to create more adaptive and human organizations.Key topics and approximate timestamps00:00 Introduction to Our Agile Tales01:20 Beyond Budgeting and Performance Reviews01:54 The Common Bonus Scheme03:29 Coherence in Management Processes05:46 Handling Non-Performance07:48 KPIs and Performance Enabling09:59 Sales Commissions and Career Paths16:49 Training and Onboarding at Handelsbanken20:58 Final Thoughts on Handelsbanken25:02 Episode Conclusion About Bjarte BogsnesBjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management.Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human.You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com.Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

Our Agile Tales

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[Episode 4] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

[Episode 3] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

[Episode 2] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

[Episode 1] Joy and HR - Lessons for Creating an Intentionally Joyful Culture

[Episode 8] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

[Episode 7] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

[Episode 6] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

[Episode 5] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

[Episode 4] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

[Episode 3] Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation

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