Learn, Make, Learn

Hosted by Ernest Kim & Joachim Groeger

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Jan 2026

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Learn, Make, Learn is two product geeks sharing qualitative & quantitative perspectives to help you make, better. Hosted by Ernest Kim and Joachim Groeger.

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32 recent

January 7, 2026Episode 321 hr 0 min

Go “Pro” in Every Product Category or Just “Good Enough”?

A question from a previous guest sparks this episode: Do we go “pro” in every product category or do we eschew the spec arms race & embrace “good enough”? We interrogate our own behaviors & share implications for people in the business of making products. INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 02:51 Starbucks Follow-Up with Zoran Svetlicic Generative AI x Product with Anmol Anubhai What McDonald’s is REALLY Like in Italy How to Try Int’l McDonald’s Menu Items in the US JOACHIM’S PROFILE PREFS FOR CLAUDE – 07:40 J’s TAKE: A PORTFOLIO APPROACH – 16:40 Testing the Same Products from 1975 and 2025 SHEIN's plan to take over FASHION E’s TAKE: SPECIALISTS OVER GENERALISTS – 27:03 Do Pharmacists Buy Bayer? Informed Shoppers and the Brand Premium Why Doesn't Everybody Buy Cheap, Generic Headache Medicine? The Secrets of Shopping The Rise of Indie Running Brands SPECIALIZATION vs HYPERGROWTH – 34:43 How I Built This: Tim Leatherman Pelican’s Indestructible Cases The Furniture Systems Of USM Haller LESSONS FOR PRODUCT PEOPLE – 42:12 Military can’t repair its own equipment Bad Dye Job RECOMMENDATIONS – 48:33 The Enshittifinancial Crisis Matthew Wilcock: 058 Motorway Cycle XI FlowingData: Best Data Visualizations of 2025 Notion Phantom Thread Dior and I on Apple TV & YouTube Sentimental Value CLOSING – 01:00:02 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

November 13, 2025Episode 311 hr 14 min

Putting Your Weird to Work with the Co-Directors of The Brand Studios Program at CU Boulder

We get the inside scoop on The Brand Studios master’s program at CU Boulder from its co-directors, Parisa Tashakori & Jeff Gillette. Unique in its accelerated 12-month span & remit across both experience design and creative advertising, the program welcomes those with a passion to “put your weird to work.” Is it right for you? INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 00:55 Why is Design So Boring? with Nate Grubbs LAP Coffee The LAP coffee Berlin backlash: when innovation meets resistance Ernest to present at Creative Mornings on Dec. 12th MEET PARISA TASHAKORI & JEFF GILLETTE – 10:07 Parisa’s faculty profile Jeff’s faculty profile ON ACADEMIA VS AGENCY LIFE – 13:52 Higher ed must do more to support teaching THE BRAND STUDIOS: THE WHAT & THE WHY – 19:11 The Brand Studios at CU Boulder AdAge: New portfolio school aims to fill a widening gap in training junior ad professionals in the wake of AI (paywall) WHO IS THE PROGRAM FOR? – 36:34 The Students ON STAYING SMALL & HUMAN – 41:09 GEN AI & BETTING ON CREATIVITY – 49:22 John Maeda on the Design Better podcast Cory Doctorow: Reverse centaurs are the answer to the AI paradox WEIRDOS WELCOME & HOW TO APPLY – 56:43 Ready to apply? RECOMMENDATIONS – 01:01:55 Parisa: The Collaborative Habit Jeff: The Art of Whittling & Atomic Habits Joachim: BOSS Katana-AIR EX & Swag Lee’s Habibi Loops Ernest: Hamnet (the novel), Lavinia & A Larger Reality at Ox CLOSING – 01:13:26 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

November 3, 2025Episode 301 hr 18 min

Starbucks Follow-Up with Zoran Svetlicic

We're joined by Zoran Svetlicic for this fast follow-up to our previous episode on Starbucks’ struggles. A strategist & builder with deep expertise in brand and food & beverage, Zoran pulls no punches in his diagnosis of Starbucks’ ills. And, along the way, schools us on positioning, brand architecture & natural wine. INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 00:39 Starbucks’ Struggles and Lessons for Product People MEET ZORAN + CONTEXT SETTING – 04:09 Zoran Svetlicic on LinkedIn Third-Wave Coffee NYT Books review of Seeing Like a State DIAGNOSING STARBUCKS’ STRUGGLES – 11:56 Mark Ritson: Starbucks needs to cut the crap from its brand positioning Brand Architecture Nestlé Takes Majority Stake in Blue Bottle (paywall) STARBUCKS RESERVE STRATEGY – 25:17 What is the Starbucks Reserve brand — and where is it going? Traditional vs. Occasion-Based Segmentation HETEROGENEITY AT SCALE: McDONALD’S – 32:45 McD’s passes Starbucks as world’s most valuable restaurant brand McD’s Just Dropped a Happy Meal Collab Straight Out of the ’90s Why The French Love American Fast Food For Some Travelers, McD’s Is a Destination (paywall) GLOBAL + LOCAL: COCA-COLA – 42:12 Coca-Cola Visual ID: Before & After We leverage design to create simplicity: David Butler Share a Coke campaign learnings LESSONS FROM NATURAL WINE – 55:31 RECOMMENDATIONS – 01:05:16 Raisin Piquentum Wines & Label UNSTUCK newsletter M5Stack Core2 Yowana & Supwell CLOSING – 01:17:36 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

October 13, 2025Episode 291 hr 12 min

Starbucks’ Struggles & Lessons for Product People

What can product people learn from Starbucks’ recent struggles, and how are these lessons linked to a venerable British book retailer, an upstart French running brand, and a barmy Japanese watchmaker? INTRO & FOLLOW-UPS – 02:47 Starbucks closing stores SPVs, Credit, and AI Datacenters This is How the AI Bubble Will Pop Neue Klasse – 60 Years of the BMW 1500 World Premiere of the new BMW iX3 BMW Hofmeister Knick—Behind the Lines STARBUCKS’ STRUGGLES – 14:08 No Logo at 20 Globalization and Its Discontents The Walmart Effect 100 Cups of Coffee in a City on Fire ANTI-HOMOGENEITY FTW – 21:08 Why high street coffee chains may have had their day Why Are Independent Coffee Shops Succeeding? Starbucks' Digital Dilemma LESSONS FOR PRODUCT PEOPLE – 36:00 Seeing Like a State Metis matters Lessons learnt from Waterstones’ turnaround Personality Disorders and Culture SATISFY How Satisfy Got the Cool Kids Into Running Ernest’s G-SHOCK Frogman Ibe Kikuo and the Development of the G-Shock G-SHOCK GA-V01 RECOMMENDATIONS – 57:19 Alien: Earth Alien: Earth soundtrack The Ballad of Wallis Island Charlie Brooker’s Screenwipe CLOSING – 01:11:08 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

July 18, 2025Episode 2850 min

Toolbox: Raymond Loewy & the MAYA Principle

Ernest & Joachim go deep on Raymond Loewy’s MAYA Principle: what it is & why it matters, with real world examples of MAYA in action, and what can happen when product teams fail to take the principle to heart. FOLLOW-UPS – 01:00 Toolbox: How “Jobs To Be Done” Can Help You Make, Better Fortis Marinemaster A BRIEF INTRO TO RAYMOND LOEWY – 06:04 MoMA on Raymond Loewy 60 Minutes: Raymond Loewy, Father of Industrial Design LOEWY’S MAYA PRINCIPLE – 09:07 The MAYA Principle in Design The iPhone only exists because Steve Jobs ‘hated this guy at Microsoft’ Phil Knight: Shoe Dog How One Designer Saved Tesla From Bankruptcy TWICE IS MAYA INHERENTLY CONSERVATIVE? – 19:36 Apple and the MAYA Principle Remembering Apple’s Newton, 30 years on MUST BE ROOTED IN EMPATHY & COMPASSION – 24:44 Raymond Loewy and the Skylab Window APPLICATIONS BEYOND PRODUCT – 28:20 The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (via Wayback Machine) BMW Is a Surprise Winner in Electric Vehicles (paywall) Goodbye to the BMW i3—an Icon of the 21st Century (paywall) The Newton Messagepad was Well Ahead of its Time General Magic documentary Intellectual Distance, Novelty, and Resource Allocation in Science RECOMMENDATIONS – 42:48 Patrick McGee: Apple in China Hidden Forces podcast: Patrick McGee EBL rechargeable AA batteries (link to Wirecutter review) CLOSING – 49:34 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

June 23, 2025Episode 271 hr 23 min

Off-the-Cuff Smörgåsbord

E & J return from a spring hiatus to discuss a range of topics, from WWDC 2025 to the Era of the Business Idiot, and more. WATCHES & WONDERS – 04:09 Don DeLillo: Cosmopolis IWC Presents A Plethora Of New Ingenieur Watches How The Pursuit Of Status Shapes Our Aesthetics The Nomos Club Sport Neomatik Worldtimer NOMOS Lounge, New York City TAG Heuer Formula 1 - They got it wrong! SLATE AUTO – 22:52 Slate Auto Reveal Event Customer service satisfaction of EV owners lower than ICE vehicles Kia, Build This EV Overland Camper Van! Top Gear: The Indestructible Toyota Hilux (full episode) WWDC 2025 – 33:49 From Skeuomorphic to Liquid Glass How the Graphical User Interface was Invented WWDC 1997: Steve Jobs Q&A (tense exchange at 50:25) Bill Gates: “Internet Tidal Wave” Apple study challenges whether AI models truly “reason” DISCORD & COMPLEXITY – 54:29 How Discord Indexes Trillions of Messages Ink & Switch Quiet RECS – 01:03:28 The Era Of The Business Idiot Better Offline podcast ‘Andor’ Season 2 UConnPopCast Rebecca Solnit: Men Explain Things to Me What Makes Art ‘Left Wing’? The Rehearsal CLOSING – 01:22:00 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

March 20, 2025Episode 2643 min

Off-the-Cuff: AI Nonsense & More!

We return from hibernation to talk AI nonsense, critique the review industrial complex, promote a return to RSS, and share a raft of recommendations! JOACHIM ON AI NONSENSE – 01:52 Previous Discussion of Humane AI (starts at 18:34) Humane Set to Brick $700 ‘AI Pins’ I outsourced my memory to an AI pin and all I got was fanfiction Ben Thompson: DeepSeek FAQ Previous Discussion on LLMs & Constraints (starts at 02:33) “Low-Resource” Text Classification ERNEST ON THE REVIEW INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX – 09:41 Motor Trend: 2021 MINI Cooper SE America’s Commute to Work Is Getting Longer (paywall) CNET: 2022 Mini Cooper SE James Hoffmann’s reviews Sigma BF Review: Beautiful Foolishness By contrast ... I took 1,000 photos with the Sigma BF GxAce YouTube channel Chris Harris on the Mercedes-AMG A45 S How Ferrari Spins IMPLICATIONS FOR PRODUCT CREATORS? – 26:07 Americans Are Obsessed With the Wrong Trucks TELO MT1 Remembering Nike’s Sandy Bodecker JOACHIM ON RSS & MORE – 31:37 Inoreader Catherine Shannon: Your phone is why you don’t feel sexy Tracy Durnell: In praise of the hundred page idea In Praise of Shadows Kenya Hara: White Timothy Snyder: On Tyranny Harry G. Frankfurt: On Bullshit Perfect Days Perfect Day (Komorebi Version) SHOULD WE START A DISCORD? – 41:22 CLOSING – 42:02 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

December 31, 2024Episode 251 hr 8 min

Caveat Emptor?

Ernest’s experience with a boundary-breaking headphone sparks a discussion on caveat emptor, or buyer beware, and just how much risk we, as product creators, should expect buyers to bear. FOLLOW-UPS – 01:15 MKBHD, Panels & Pricing WTF Happened in 2024?! I Love You, Man: The Male Friendship Recession Why Are Boys and Men in Trouble? CAVEAT EMPTOR? – 06:36 Caveat emptor An ode to open-back headphones—and why I’d never go (closed-)back What’s the difference between dynamic and planar magnetic drivers? Audio46 Headphones Sennheiser HD800S: Revisiting a Legend Focal Clear MG Hifiman Arya Stealth & Organic Hifiman Arya Unveiled Review—The Next Best? The most expensive headphone in the world is terrifying! Are Hifiman Unveiled Headphones Safe? With Just 8 Words, Steve Jobs Explained the Best Decision He Ever Made Man Tests Tesla Cybertruck Trunk Sensor With His Finger The Hidden Autopilot Data That Reveals Why Teslas Crash IIHS tested Tesla Autopilot safeguards: Here’s what they found Arrival or departure? The rise and fall of Britain’s EV unicorn Interview with Hifiman CEO Dr. Fang Bian ‘The Beta Test’ Director Jim Cummings Wants to Liberate Indie Filmmaking RECOMMENDATIONS – 51:07 Derek Guy: Die Workwear! J’s year-end rec: Outlier Strongworks Pants E’s year-end rec: OrSlow French Work Pants & Yamatomichi 5-Pocket Pants CLOSING – 01:07:44 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

November 15, 2024Episode 2457 min

MKBHD, Panels & Pricing

A conversation triggered by MKBHD’s Panels app gets really interesting when we dig into pricing & lessons for people in the business of making products. FOLLOW-UPS – 02:23 Are Pop Lyrics Getting More Repetitive? How gamification took over the world Can't Play, Won't Play An Interview with Meta CTO Andrew Bosworth Meta Connect Keynote 2024 Meta’s big tease MKBHD, PANELS & PRICING – 07:30 Marques Brownlee MKBHD’s first review Marques Brownlee says ‘I hear you’ after fans criticize his new wallpaper app YouTubers are not your friends Why Criticism Still Matters LESSON FOR PRODUCT CREATORS – 20:02 How Nike finally hacked skateboarding ON PRICING – 23:42 Friedrich Hayek Oskar R. Lange Lange model Kanopy Taylor Swift–Ticketmaster controversy The Changing Face Of The Secondary Market: Rolex CPO and more RECOMMENDATIONS – 43:18 MUBI The Substance on MUBI The Fall on MUBI Goeff McFetridge: Drawing a Life on MUBI Thatcher had “phenomenal” impact on Britain’s cultural landscape Bedrock Sandals Creepers Socks How Did Hokas Become So Popular? (paywall) CLOSING – 56:29 **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

October 18, 2024Episode 2357 min

Why is Design So Boring? with Nate Grubbs

We dive into our titular question with Nate Grubbs, who, unlike us, is a professional designer with strong views borne of decades of experience across UX, visual & product design. MEET NATE – 01:18 THE AGE OF AVERAGE – 04:19 Alex Murrell: The age of average The tyranny of the algorithm: why every coffee shop looks the same How Khruangbin’s Sound Became the New Mood Music (paywall) SOUL, FLASH & OLD MAN VIBES – 06:36 A Farewell to Adobe Flash—and the Messy, Glorious Web Donnie Darko website Félix Lapointe: Remembering Kai Power Tools Artist at Play: An e-mail exchange with Kai Krause A PERVASIVE FEAR OF FAILURE – 17:49 Please, Please Don’t A/B Test That Study finds 268% higher failure rates for Agile software projects SIGNS OF HOPE & BREAKING THROUGH – 23:27 Massimo Giunco: Nike, An Epic Saga of Value Destruction The Father of Grunge Typography Calls Out Lazy Design Paula Scher: Great design is serious (not solemn) Kintsugi CONSTRAINTS AS A CATALYST – 34:08 Why Constraints Are Good for Innovation Daft Social Start-Ups Surge in the Great Reset Gnuhr Physical music sales on course for first increase in 20 years RECOMMENDATIONS – 45:45 Nate: Yoto Ernest: A Different Man ; related: The rise and rise of A24, a champion of storytelling on screen (paywall) Joachim: I Saw the TV Glow ; What You Are Looking for is in the Library CLOSING – 56:57 NateGrubbs.com **** Rant, rave or otherwise via email at LearnMakeLearn@gmail.com or on Threads @LearnMakeLearnShow . CREDITS Theme: Vendla / Today Is a Good Day / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com Drum hit: PREL / Musical Element 85 / courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com