CELab: The Customer Education Lab

Hosted by CELab

Technology Arts

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Episodes

151

Latest episode

Aug 2026

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EN-US

About the show

CELab is the Customer Education Lab for Innovative Customer Success, Enablement, and Marketing Teams. Our mission is to explore how to build Customer Education programs, experiment with new approaches, and exterminate the myths and bad advice that stop growth dead in its tracks.

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60 recent

August 7, 20261 hr 9 min

CELab - Ep 185 - The Four Faces of AI Resistance: Eve Kedar on Why Customer Education Should Own the AI Rollout

Most companies handed the internal AI rollout to whoever sits closest to revenue — Sales Enablement or RevOps — and adoption promptly stalled at the login screen. In this episode, Dave reunites with his old Gainsight colleague Eve Kedar, EdD — Revenue Execution Architect at EK Consulting, author of Build a KickA$$ Sales Team, and creator of the Four Faces of AI Resistance — to make the case most org charts get wrong: the team that should own internal AI adoption is the one nobody put in the room. Customer Education.Eve brings a combination almost nobody else in this conversation has: a doctorate in Education and Leadership for Change plus 15+ years inside revenue teams at Apple, Seagate, PayPal, Cisco, Gainsight, and copy.ai. Whether you sit in Customer Education, Customer Success, L&D, Enablement, Marketing, or Support — if your job is helping people genuinely change how they work, this episode hands you a diagnostic for the resistance you’re up against and two plays you can run on Monday, no platform purchase required.Highlights from this episode:The Four Faces of AI Resistance — status fear, displacement fear, change aversion, and rollout fatigue — and why naming which face you’re looking at tells you exactly which intervention to run.Why not Enablement or RevOps? Neither function is chartered to own learning — and real “adoption” means use-in-workflow, not logins.Attendance is a vanity metric. If all you can show is headcount and quiz clicks, your team may be next to get cut — bring KPI movement instead.The master glossary play: become the anchor for canonical learning with two-minute mini-trainings — without critiquing Enablement’s content and losing them forever.The cheapest AI enablement in the world: prompt-based roleplay with Claude or ChatGPT — twenty minutes per rep, no purchase order.Learn more: get the Four Faces of AI Resistance framework — plus Eve’s speaking and workshops — at evekedar.com, explore EK Consulting’s revenue-execution work at ekconsulting.io, read her book Build a KickA$$ Sales Team, and ask her about the AI roleplay prompt workbook. And connect with Eve on LinkedIn!

July 21, 20261 hr 6 min

CELab - Ep 184 - Your Biggest AI Problem Isn’t Skills - It’s Belief: Customer Education in the Age of AI

In this kickoff to Season 8 of the CELab podcast, host Dave Derington sits down with Anya Eydman to explore a provocative idea: our biggest AI problem in Customer Education isn’t a skills gap or a technology gap - it’s a belief gap. Anya draws on her background in corporate finance, small business and startup operations, coaching, municipal and nonprofit work, and energy/civic tech to show how AI is becoming a new learning style and a genuine learning partner, not just another productivity tool. Anya connects the dots between AI, underserved communities, workforce shifts, and what it means to design learning experiences that people actually want to engage with. Across the conversation, they unpack the role of prompt engineering as a core literacy, not just a niche technical skill, and examine how AI can level the playing field while also exposing new inequities. Anya shares how she’s using AI with interns, cities, and universities (including a forthcoming “AI Without Hype” course at Vassar College) to build trust infrastructure, redesign workflows, and bring more people into complex conversations about energy, affordability, and technology. If you’re in Customer Education or Customer Success and wrestling with how AI changes your strategy, your stakeholders, and your learners, this episode will challenge how you think about outcomes, belief systems, and what “meeting learners where they are” really means in 2026. Key Topics: The “belief gap” vs. skills gap Why resistance to AI is often about belief systems, not capability. How this parallels learner motivation and adoption challenges in CE/CS. AI as a new learning style and learning partner Treating AI like a sharp intern or co-worker rather than a magic answer machine. Designing learning journeys that assume AI is in the loop. Prompt engineering as a core literacy Why prompt engineering should be taught like a fundamental communication skill. How better questions drive better learning outcomes and better customer outcomes. Non-linear, outcome-focused learning journeys Moving beyond “I took a course” to “we changed a workflow and a behavior.” Aligning CE programs with measurable participation and impact, not just completions. Cross-pollination beyond SaaS/B2B silos Lessons from civic tech, energy, and community engagement that apply directly to CE/CS. How to bring community-style thinking into customer communities and academies. Underserved learners and access to AI What “underserved” means when AI accelerates knowledge but not everyone can use it well. How CE can help customers navigate fear, overload, and trust issues with AI. Trust infrastructure and stakeholder mapping Building trust frameworks inside organizations and with customer stakeholders. Rethinking stakeholder mapping now that decision-making paths and gatekeepers are changing. Team dynamics, titles, and shared ownership of knowledge Shifting from heavy titles to everyone as a “lead” owning a slice of the missio...

June 19, 20261 hr 11 min

CELab - Ep 183 - Your Product Isn’t Too Complex for AI: Georg Gottschalk on ERP, Partners, and Learning at Scale

In this episode of the Customer Education Lab, Georg Gottschalk, VP of Global Education at Acumatica, to unpack what it really takes to build a skill infrastructure around a highly complex ERP platform. Georg traces his journey from early work with SAP and manufacturing optimization, through leadership roles at IBM, Salesforce, and MuleSoft, to his current mandate: Enabling a fast-growing, partner-led ecosystem in the small and mid-sized business ERP space. Georg shares why ERP is one of the ultimate “stress tests” for Customer Education and why the old excuse of “our product is too complex for AI” no longer holds up. The conversation dives deep into AI-assisted learning, micro-vertical partner strategies, and what it means to certify companies instead of just individuals. Georg explains how Acumatica leverages tools like LearnExperts’ LEAi to transform rich but dense documentation into fun, engaging, and increasingly personalized education at scale—without tripling headcount. You’ll hear how his team thinks about partner enablement, customer onboarding that massively exceeded adoption targets, weaving education into the product workflow, and even “teaching machines” by producing content optimized for LLMs. If you work in Customer Education or Customer Success and are wrestling with complexity, scale, or AI, this is an episode you won’t want to miss. Here are some of the key insights from this episode! AI works for complex products too — the "too technical for AI" excuse no longer holds; AI acts as a force multiplier, handling grunt work (first-pass quizzes, structuring, transformations) so SMEs can focus on quality. Skill infrastructure at ecosystem scale — enabling customers, partners, consultants, and developers across a complex ERP, with tools like Leah powering engaging, personalized education. Certifying companies, not just individuals — partner-level certification builds trust and signals capability, supporting a partner-led growth and micro-vertical strategy. Closing the value gap — bridging what the platform can do and what users actually achieve through in-workflow, contextual guidance rather than course-based learning alone. Hyper-personalization with telemetry — using product usage data to spot skill gaps and deliver "what users need tomorrow, not today." Teaching machines and fostering experimentation — writing content readable by LLMs and skill files for AI agents, while leaders create psychological safety for teams to experiment, keeping humans in the loop.

June 5, 20261 hr 0 min

Stop Hiring SMEs as Trainers: How Optro Scales Live Training That Actually Protects Revenue

In this episode of CELab, Dave Derington sits down with Tim Devine, who built Optro's (formerly AuditBoard) live training program from a solo effort in 2021 into a three-person team running roughly 250 custom training engagements a year. Tim's thesis is deceptively simple and a little provocative: you don't need to hire subject-matter experts to deliver expert training. You need people who are experts in the product and the path — and the discipline to stay there. We all know the "one legendary expert who doesn't scale" problem, right? Tim approach is to hire trainers with no auditing background, coach them to "learn the language and trust the audience to fill the gaps," and keep a customer subject-matter expert on deck to field methodology questions. Guardrails — a prescriptive course catalog, recommended agendas, and tightly structured virtual sessions — aren't limitations; they're what make scale possible. The conversation digs into Optro's "do-it-with-me" methodology, where a temporary sandbox is mirrored from the customer's own UAT data so learners click along live instead of watching a demo — a direct answer to the live-attendance problem. Tim also opens up the tech stack: Amplitude to correlate learning objectives with product outcomes, Gainsight health scores, and Skilljar as the LMS — plus a 13% renewal-rate lift that reframes training as revenue protection rather than a cost center. On AI, Tim shares two practical wins: auto-scoping tailored learning paths from sales-and-implementation handoff data, and using Zoom's auto-chapters to make session recordings instantly navigable. Honest, tactical, and full of things you can steal on Monday.

May 22, 202658 min

CELab - Ep 181 - Kelly Mullaney - From “Team of One” to 10x Impact: How AI Is Rewiring Customer Education

In this episode of the Customer Education Lab, Adam Avramescu sits down with Kelly Mullaney, Head of AI Guild at Juniper Square, to unpack how AI is actually changing Customer Education. Kelly traces his journey from tax tech writer at Microsoft, to leading Customer Education at Envestnet, to building AI Guild—an internal enablement function focused on helping teams 10x their productivity with AI. Along the way, he shares concrete builds: an AI‑driven help center that watches code commits and auto‑drafts release notes and docs, a 37‑agent competitive intelligence system feeding Slack, and experiments in “vibe‑coded” e‑learning that challenge what LMSs and SCORM should look like in an AI‑first world. Adam and Kelly go deep on the questions every Customer Education and Customer Success leader is wrestling with: Will AI kill our jobs, or amplify our impact? When does it make sense to build with AI versus buy another SaaS tool? How can small, scrappy teams of one keep up when engineering output increases 10x? You’ll hear a practical breakdown of the Anthropic stack (Claude Chat, Code Desktop, Cowork, Design, Managed Agents), a simple “80% AI / 20% human‑in‑the‑loop” mental model, and a candid look at the future of help centers, LMSs, and documentation. If you’re trying to move past the hype and see what AI‑enabled customer education really looks like, this episode is for you. We talk about: AI as the new “electricity”: why simply bolting AI onto old workflows fails—and what it means to rewire your education stack. Kelly’s path: tech writer → running Customer Education at a $5B company → leading AI Guild at Juniper Square. Human‑in‑the‑loop: using AI to get to 80% done and relying on experts for the final 20% quality bar. AI‑driven help centers: monitoring Git repos for meaningful commits, pulling Jira context, applying style guides, and auto‑drafting release notes and help docs. Fixed docs vs. AI assistants: why Kelly layers AI chat on top of a traditional help center instead of replacing it outright. Discovering content gaps: using AI search and chat logs to identify missing documentation and new questions customers are asking. Build vs. buy math: when building 80% of a SaaS tool in a weekend (with Claude + Supabase + agents) beats paying $30–60K per year. Agentic competitive intel: 37 Claude agents monitor competitors, post daily briefs to Slack, and learn from a feedback loop. Rethinking LMS and SCORM: legacy tools’ reporting limitations vs. what AI‑enabled tracking and analysis can unlock. Demystifying Anthropic’s stack: how Claude Chat, Code, Cowork, Design, MCPs/connectors, and Managed Agents fit together. Tool choice vs. governance: innovating even when your company only “allows” one AI vendor like Copilot. Why CE leaders are primed for AI: curiosity, user empathy, and great questions matter more than coding backgrounds. Getting started advice: don’t just “insert AI into the SDLC”—reimagine your education model for a 10x‑faster product team.

May 5, 20261 hr 5 min

CELab - Ep 180 - Lila Krutel - How MCP + AI Are Shifting Power Back to Customer Education Leaders

In this episode of the Customer Education Lab we sit down with longtime friend and customer education leader Lila Krutel at Skilljar by Gainsight to unpack how MCP (Model Context Protocol) and modern AI tools like Claude are reshaping the role of Customer Education in B2B SaaS. Together they explore how MCP acts like “arms” for your AI assistant—connecting it to systems like your LMS and Customer Success Platform so you can finally query, explore, and analyze your own data without waiting in the CS Ops queue. Lila shares concrete, in-the-trenches stories from Gainsight, including how she used Gainsight’s CS MCP plus Claude to identify customers with unused training passes, analyze the business impact of admin certification, and start connecting education programs to ARR and retention - all without writing SQL or begging for a special report. If you’ve ever felt blocked by data access, stuck waiting on BI dashboards, or unsure how to “prove” the value of education, this conversation will show you the art of the possible and give you practical ways to start experimenting—safely, skeptically, and out loud—with AI in your own CE or CS org.

April 16, 20261 hr 16 min

CELab - Ep 179 - How Jess Katz Built an AI‑Powered Customer Education Org as a Team of One

In this episode of the Customer Education Lab, we sit down with Jess Katz, Senior Customer Education Manager at Forter, to unpack how she built an AI‑powered customer education function as a team of one. Jess walks us through her journey from joining Forter with a blank slate and an aggressive launch timeline, to orchestrating a “swarm” of more than 20 specialized AI agents that now support everything from research and course design to writing, video scripts, and brand voice. You’ll hear how Jess leveraged an internal AI hackathon to create her first product‑ and brand‑trained agent, then scaled that approach into a full “agentic learning” stack using tools like Claude, Gemini, Glean, and video platforms such as Clueso—plus a next‑gen AI‑native LMS. She explains her step‑by‑step method for designing agents, reverse‑engineering “what good looks like,” and acting as the strategic director of a hybrid team of humans and AI. If you care about Customer Education, Customer Success, or doing more with less through AI, this episode is a practical, down‑to‑earth blueprint for where our field is heading. Click here for our Agentic Learning Survey for Customer Education! Episode Highlights: From zero to launch: How Jess joined Forter with no existing customer education function and set an aggressive timeline to ship a full Help Center and Academy. Team of one → team of many (agents): Why she now operates with 20+ specialized AI agents across research, writing, analysis, and design. Agentic learning in practice: A concrete definition of agentic learning as a network of domain‑trained AI agents supporting both creators and learners. Hackathon origin story: How an internal AI hackathon (open to non‑engineers) became the catalyst for Forter’s first product‑ and brand‑trained agent. Replacing weeks of meetings: Case study where an agent analyzed a product screen recording and drafted a full article outline, saving weeks of PM/PMM + CE collaboration. Multi‑agent workflows: Using Glean to mine 100+ pages of onboarding data, one agent to analyze patterns, and another to convert that into on‑brand course modules. Strategic director mindset: Moving from “content producer” to director of a hybrid human + AI team, focusing on goals, quality, and business impact. and much, much more ...

April 16, 20261 hr 16 min

CELab - Ep 179 - How Jess Katz Built an AI‑Powered Customer Education Org as a Team of One

In this episode of the Customer Education Lab, we sit down with Jess Katz, Senior Customer Education Manager at Forter, to unpack how she built an AI‑powered customer education function as a team of one. Jess walks us through her journey from joining Forter with a blank slate and an aggressive launch timeline, to orchestrating a “swarm” of more than 20 specialized AI agents that now support everything from research and course design to writing, video scripts, and brand voice. You’ll hear how Jess leveraged an internal AI hackathon to create her first product‑ and brand‑trained agent, then scaled that approach into a full “agentic learning” stack using tools like Claude, Gemini, Glean, and video platforms such as Clueso—plus a next‑gen AI‑native LMS. She explains her step‑by‑step method for designing agents, reverse‑engineering “what good looks like,” and acting as the strategic director of a hybrid team of humans and AI. If you care about Customer Education, Customer Success, or doing more with less through AI, this episode is a practical, down‑to‑earth blueprint for where our field is heading. Here's the link to Jess's LinkedIn Article, "How I Built a Scalable Customer Education Engine as a Team of One Using AI Agents". We're also very interested to learn from you! Click here for our Agentic Learning Survey for Customer Education! Episode Highlights: From zero to launch: How Jess joined Forter with no existing customer education function and set an aggressive timeline to ship a full Help Center and Academy. Team of one → team of many (agents): Why she now operates with 20+ specialized AI agents across research, writing, analysis, and design. Agentic learning in practice: A concrete definition of agentic learning as a network of domain‑trained AI agents supporting both creators and learners. Hackathon origin story: How an internal AI hackathon (open to non‑engineers) became the catalyst for Forter’s first product‑ and brand‑trained agent. Replacing weeks of meetings: Case study where an agent analyzed a product screen recording and drafted a full article outline, saving weeks of PM/PMM + CE collaboration. Multi‑agent workflows: Using Glean to mine 100+ pages of onboarding data, one agent to analyze patterns, and another to convert that into on‑brand course modules. Strategic director mindset: Moving from “content producer” to director of a hybrid human + AI team, focusing on goals, quality, and business impact. and much, much more ...

April 3, 202652 min

CELab - Ep 178 - From Order Taker to Trusted Consultant: How Action Mapping & Brainstorm Transformed Customer Education at Quickbase

In this episode, we are joined by Ashley DeKerlegand, Director of Customer Education and CX Enablement at Quickbase, to unpack how she transformed Quickbase University from “optional training” into a core driver of expansion and reduced churn. Ashley shares her journey from manufacturing and product training into SaaS, how she built and now leads a 12-person global team, and why Quickbase’s customer education program is tightly woven into the company’s onboarding and Failure-to-Launch strategy. Ashley and Dave go deep on action mapping as a performance-first design framework, how Ashley evaluated 13+ learning platforms before choosing Brainstorm, and why private, co-branded customer portals have become a game-changer for governance, security, and adoption. You’ll hear how she partners with Sales, CS, and Product, uses customer interviews and Gong calls to shape strategy, and is now reorienting learning paths around AI-powered app building and customer-specific use cases. Episode Highlights: How Ashley repositioned Customer Education from “nice-to-have” to core expansion strategy at Quickbase Using Failure to Launch (no app built in 60–90 days) as a key churn signal and CE design input Moving from order-taking (“we need a course”) to strategic problem-solving using action mapping The four blocker categories in action mapping: environment, knowledge, skill, and motivation Why traditional frameworks like ADDIE/SAM often break down in fast-moving SaaS environments The power of private, branded customer portals for governance, security, and co-created content Turning CSMs, TAMs, and Sales into educators and content contributors (without overwhelming them) and much, much more ...

March 4, 202651 min

CELab - Ep 177 - How Kevin Lee Turned “Scrappy” Video into a Scaled Customer Education Engine

In this episode of CELab, we welcome content creator Kevin Lee to unpack how “scrappy” social-style video can transform Customer Education and scaled Customer Success. Kevin shares his journey from running a Rubik’s Cube meme account and a 200K-subscriber YouTube channel to launching Atlassian Answered, a video series that has generated over 2 million organic impressions and hundreds of thousands of views—without paid promotion. Along the way, he explains why most B2B content fails to land, how to “earn” attention instead of assuming it, and why simplifying corporate jargon is like teaching calculus to someone who’s still in geometry. Together, we dig into the craft behind effective educational content: from scripting for real humans instead of internal stakeholders, to using video as a scaled “virtual CSM,” to practical production tactics like no-pause editing, intentional cropping, and focusing on audio over fancy visuals. They also explore how employee-generated content (EGC), personal branding, and authentic on-camera presence can amplify product education, drive adoption, and build trust at scale. If you’re in Customer Education, Customer Success, or Product Marketing and you’re serious about using content to move the needle, this conversation will give you a playbook you can start testing this week. Highlights: How to turn complex B2B products into simple, relatable stories your customers actually get Why audio quality, pacing, and presence matter more than cinematic visuals The “geometry vs. calculus” model for simplifying corporate jargon Using employee-generated content (EGC) and personal brands to amplify your product education Practical editing tricks: no-pause audio, crop-in/crop-out, and using text sparingly but strategically How to repurpose video across the journey: onboarding, in-product guidance, help center, and renewal