What Baboons Reveal About Bullies, Coercion, and Fake Apologies - Dr. Christine Webb
A primatologist spent years watching a baboon troop and documented the exact behaviors survivors describe: the bully who escalates at random, the apology that arrives with an audience, the group that reorganizes itself around one individual's temper. None of it was your imagination. All of it is on record. Dr. Christine Webb is a Harvard-trained primatologist and Assistant Professor at New York University, where she is part of the Animal Studies program. Her book is The Arrogant Ape: The Myth of Human Exceptionalism and Why It Matters. "He put his hand between my hiking boots, he looked up at me, and he bared his teeth into this very awkward, forced grimace." In this conversation we cover why aggression is rarely about the thing it appears to be about, what reconciliation actually restores, and the critical difference between an apology and a submission display. Dr. Webb also walks through the Sapolsky study in which a troop's most aggressive males died off and the group's culture changed permanently, a change that outlasted every animal who had lived through it. If you have ever been told you were reading too much into it, this episode is a record of researchers reading exactly that much into it, on purpose, with notebooks. RESOURCES Christine's book: https://amzn.to/4wxU4Bk Christine's website: https://www.cewebb.com/ Christine's papers: https://www.cewebb.com/papers Sapolsky & Share, "A Pacific Culture among Wild Baboons" (PLoS Biology, 2004): https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.0020106 Brad's microphone: https://amzn.to/4jVOjqq WATCH NEXT Robert Greene on The Laws of Human Nature: https://youtu.be/64MsV-FECsY 🔔 SUBSCRIBE to help get more guests on the show: https://goo.gl/uEAeNp #CoerciveControl #NarcissisticAbuse #primatology 00:00 In This Episode 00:56 Introducing Dr. Christine Webb 01:22 What Aggression Actually Does in a Group 04:58 The Mobbing: When the Group Turns on You 08:08 The Apology That Broke the Rules 10:47 Are Apologies Ever Sincere? 11:51 Why Words Are the Weakest Evidence 17:48 Consolation: Comfort From a Bystander 20:06 The Rule That Trains Scientists to Doubt Animal Minds 26:12 Unique vs. Superior 28:29 When a Leader Has Zero Empathy 29:38 The Troop That Changed After the Bullies Died 32:40 How a Group Handles a Despotic Leader 34:39 Coerced Females: Dr. Webb's Own Research 39:28 Chimps vs. Bonobos: The Stereotype Problem 45:05 Bluff Displays: Getting Loud to Get Your Way 50:56 The Lab, the Cages, and MacDuff 57:34 Prison Populations and the Psychopathy Problem 01:01:53 The Translation Crisis in Animal Research 01:05:51 Find Dr. Christine Webb Online 01:06:09 What Primates Teach Us About Repair 01:08:46 Further Recommendation: Robert Greene on The Laws of Human Nature
