Bottom Up

Hosted by Joe Forward

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Latest episode

Jul 2026

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EN-US

About the show

What issues matter most to young lawyers? Where can new lawyers go to find career advice, professional insights, practice tips, and more? Bottom Up is a podcast dedicated to examining today's legal challenges. Produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin and hosted by Emil Ovbiagele, a young lawyer and founder of a small law firm based in Milwaukee, each episode features frank discussions and relatable stories that highlight the interests and opportunities for attorneys working to establish their practice their way.

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33 recent

July 15, 2026Episode 291 hr 15 min

Episode 31: René Jovel's Unique Journey from L.A. to Milwaukee, from Political Sphere to In-house Counsel

René Jovel, an assistant general counsel, shares his inspiring journey from L.A. to Milwaukee, with a pit stop at Northwestern University, navigating multiple cultural environments and forging a unique legal career path. Discover insights on the realities of law school, the impact of constituent services in the U.S. Senate, and the evolving landscape of in-house legal roles. Host Emil Ovbiagele leads this lively discussion, which centers on René's road less traveled, the power of staying true to oneself, and the value of time, while providing insight on his work as in-house counsel for a multi-state healthcare organization. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and René Jovel's Background in L.A. 02:10 Early Influences and Family Stories 06:59 The Cost and Value of Time in a Legal Career 12:14 Law School Challenges and Resilience 19:58 Transition from Northwestern to Milwaukee 30:01 Current Role at Versiti Inc. 40:03 In-House Legal Work and Its Evolution 49:53 Representation, Diversity, and Identity 01:00:10 The Future of Legal Services and AI 01:10:03 Maintaining Authenticity and Personal Identity 01:12:54 Advice to Younger Self and Closing Remarks

March 6, 2026Episode 3051 min

Episode 30: Legal Blogging with LexBlog CEO Kevin O'Keefe

Explore the evolution and impact of legal blogging with Kevin O'Keefe, CEO of LexBlog Inc., as he shares insights on how lawyers can leverage blogs for reputation, niche authority, and adapting to AI advancements. The LexBlog Library "indexes and archives legal commentary published across the web, providing the structure and metadata required to power the AI-driven web." O'Keefe, who started his legal career as a trial lawyer in La Crosse, discusses his path into the legal tech world, the democratization of legal publishing through blogs, and how lawyers can leverage legal blogs in an Internet age now dominated by AI. Joe Forward and Peter Kraemer, of the State Bar of Wisconsin, lead the discussion with O'Keefe, a pioneer of legal blogging in the U.S. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Blogging and Legal Insights 02:15 The Evolution of LexBlog and Its Impact 04:32 Understanding the LexBlog Platform 06:58 The Importance of Independent Blogging 09:11 Niche Blogging and Its Benefits 11:38 Strategies for Successful Blogging 14:02 Overcoming Blogging Challenges 16:33 Getting Started with Blogging 19:50 Kevin O'Keefe's Journey from Lawyer to Tech Entrepreneur 25:51 The Journey of Entrepreneurship 27:17 The Impact of AI on Legal Practice 29:14 Building Relationships Through Blogging 32:37 The Role of LexBlog in Legal Blogging 35:20 The Birth of WisLawNOW 38:58 The Future of Legal Blogging and AI

December 1, 2025Episode 2934 min

Episode 29: Private Bar Assigned Counsel Program, State Public Defender with Kathleen Pakes and Melissa Lamb

Through the Assigned Counsel Program, the Wisconsin State Public Defender (SPD) appoints private bar attorneys to handle conflict cases, providing attorneys with courtroom experience in criminal cases representing clients charged with misdemeanors and felonies across the state. "You can absolutely do it," said attorney Kathleen Pakes, director of the Assigned Counsel Program. Pakes is talking about new or newer attorneys who may be interested in taking assigned cases, noting SPD provides training and other resources. Learn more about the opportunities in Episode 29 of the State Bar of Wisconsin's Bottom Up Podcast, a bonus episode with Pakes and program and policy supervisor Melissa Lamb, hosted by State Bar Communications Director Joe Forward. This conversation explains the program and explores the essential qualities and motivations of public defenders, the unique challenges they face, and the critical role they play in upholding justice and protecting clients' rights. Chapters 00:00 – Introduction to the Episode 00:55 – Guest Introductions: Melissa Lamb and Kathleen Pakes 02:20 – What Is the Assigned Counsel Program? 04:15 – History and Attorney Shortage Challenges 06:31 – How Attorneys Join and Work with SPD Assigned Counsel 08:20 – Mentorship, Training, and Community Support 11:10 – Why Assigned Counsel Is Valuable for Young Lawyers 12:40 – Case Types, Flexibility, and Attorney Lifestyles 13:37 – Parenting, Lifestyle, and Remote Work Options 14:55 – Trials, Timelines, and Misdemeanor Case Duration 15:42 – The Crisis in Rural Counties 16:45 – Remote Hearings and Travel Compensation 18:00 – Staffing Needs at SPD and Public Defender Hiring 19:20 – Student Loan Forgiveness for Assigned Counsel Work 20:22 – What Makes a Good Public Defender? 22:41 – What Keeps Attorneys at SPD? 25:03 – Caseloads and Demand for Attorneys 27:40 – Encouragement to Attorneys Considering the Program 29:06 – Benefits for a Well-Rounded Legal Career 31:29 – Flexibility, Work–Life Balance, and Rewards of the Work 32:50 – How to Get Involved 33:44 – Closing Remarks

October 7, 2025Episode 2847 min

Episode 28: Product Liability Law and Legal Writing with Trial Attorney Jesse Blocher

Jesse Blocher is the author of a recently published book, "Wisconsin Tort Law: Products Liability," published by State Bar of Wisconsin PINNACLE®. He's also an award-winning author for Wisconsin Lawyer magazine. In this episode of the Bottom Up Podcast, produced by the State Bar, the conversation explores Jesse's journey into law, the challenges faced by young lawyers, the decline of jury trials, and the intricacies of product liability law. A partner at Habush, Habush & Rottier, Jesse shares insights on how young lawyers can become go-to attorneys in trial practice, offers tips for success along the way, and discusses how writing projects have helped him develop various aspects of his practice. The sole author of the first of a three-part series on tort law, Jesse shares his writing process and discusses how lawyers can be mentors to the next generation through writing. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Bottom Up Podcast 00:29 New Developments at the State Bar of Wisconsin 01:49 Meet the Author: Jesse Blocher 02:43 Jesse Blocher's Journey into Law 08:01 Early Career Challenges and Opportunities 12:21 The Disappearing Jury Trial 16:55 Exploring Products Liability Law 20:44 The Upcoming Tort Law Book Series 23:21 The Collaborative Writing Process 25:20 Motivations Behind Writing the Book 27:16 The Impact of 2011 Legislative Changes 31:15 Understanding Products Liability Cases 34:35 Real-World Applications of Products Liability 38:26 Challenges in Legal Writing 41:44 Target Audience and Practical Advice

September 2, 2025Episode 271 hr 10 min

Episode 27: From Steelworker to Civil Rights Lawyer - Veteran Litigator Mark L. Thomsen's Unique Journey

Mark L. Thomsen's path to law is unlike any other story. In this episode of the Bottom Up podcast, host Emil Obviagele dives deep with Mark, a veteran Milwaukee-based litigator and partner at Gingras Thomsen & Wachs LLP. The episode explores Mark's unique upbringing in Nigeria, his return to America, and the cultural shocks he experienced. They discuss his journey into law, activism, and the importance of fighting for justice. The conversation delves into the role of lawyers in society, the impact of AI on the legal profession, and the significance of civic engagement in maintaining democracy. Mark emphasizes the need for creativity in law and the responsibility of lawyers to advocate for truth and justice in a changing world. Mark is a veteran trial lawyer in the areas of personal injury, civil rights (section 1983 claims), medical malpractice, nursing home abuse, and legal malpractice claims. Raised in Nigeria until age 12, Mark dropped out of high school at age 17 and worked as a steelworker and union representative before his East Chicago plant closed down in 1984. Three years later, Mark began his legal career. Don't miss the details of Mark's inspiring and unique journey, and the path ahead. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Unique Journeys 05:09 Cultural Perspectives and Identity 10:03 Rebellion and Activism in Youth 14:50 Transitioning to Law and Advocacy 19:34 The Role of Law in Society 24:45 Navigating Challenges in the Legal Profession 29:33 The Impact of AI on Law 34:44 Civic Engagement and Elections 39:46 Reflections on Democracy and Justice 44:31 Inspiration for Future Lawyers

June 30, 2025Episode 2647 min

Episode 26: Building a Family Law Practice - Insights from Max T. Stephenson

Are you a family law attorney or want to learn more about family law as a practice area? In this episode of the Bottom Up Podcast, produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin, attorney Max T. Stephenson describes his experiences as a family law attorney with Gimbel Reilly Guerin & Brown LLP for more than a decade. Starting as a new lawyer with no family law experience, Stephenson discusses his 12-year career path and provides insights on building and growing a successful family law practice. Host Kristen Hardy and guest host Joe Forward engage with Stephenson on the emotional complexities of family law, the importance of maintaining professionalism, and the skills necessary for young lawyers to succeed in this challenging field. Max shares insights from his career, including the impact of the pandemic on legal practice, the significance of mentorship, and the evolving landscape of prenuptial agreements. The conversation also touches on the threats he has faced, but also the heartwarming aspects of family law, such as adoption proceedings. Overall, the episode provides valuable advice for young lawyers and law students navigating their careers in family law. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Family Law and the Podcast 01:12 Max T. Stevenson: Background and Career Path 04:11 Navigating the Emotional Landscape of Family Law 07:12 Learning to Manage Stress in Family Law Practice 10:19 Handling Non-Legal Issues in Family Law 11:35 Dealing with Threats and Safety in Family Law 14:08 Essential Skills for Young Family Lawyers 16:41 Civility and Networking in Family Law 17:20 Advice for Law Students and Young Lawyers 19:54 The Anatomy of a Divorce Case 22:37 Prenuptial and Postnuptial Agreements 26:27 Pro Se Litigants in Family Law 29:18 Heartwarming Adoption Cases 32:18 The Stress of Adoption Proceedings 35:24 Finding Light After Divorce 37:06 Balancing Personal Life and Legal Practice 38:21 Staying at the Same Firm: Loyalty and Growth 40:56 Mentorship and Supporting New Lawyers 43:20 The Impact of the Pandemic on New Lawyers 46:00 The Future of Legal Practice and AI

March 21, 2025Episode 2552 min

Episode 25: Practice Insights and Tips with Judges Ellen Brostrom and Krista LaFave

In this episode of the Bottom Up Podcast, produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin, host Kristen Hardy talks with former Milwaukee Circuit Court Judge Ellen Brostrom, now a mediator at Resolute Systems LLC, and Wauwatosa Municipal Court Judge Krista LaFave, also a personal injury attorney at Warshafsky Law. Both explore their unique career paths, motivations for public service, and the differences between circuit and municipal courts. They discuss the importance of courtroom presentation, the challenges with pro se litigants, and the balance between judicial duties and private practice. The conversation highlights the collegiality within the Wisconsin legal community and the significance of professional organizations, including the vital role of mentorship and networking for young lawyers, particularly women in the legal profession. Hardy and her guests highlight the evolving needs of legal organizations, the transition from judicial roles to mediation, and the significant impact of AI on the legal landscape. The speakers share insights on how young lawyers can navigate their careers, emphasizing the importance of deep preparation, professionalism, and maintaining connections within the legal community.

December 30, 2024Episode 2427 min

Episode 24: Listening to Lawyers and Practice Pulse Join the Podcast Mix in 2025

Exciting News! Starting in 2025, two new podcasts will join Bottom Up in a rotation of podcasts produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin. Bottom Up , co-hosted by Emil Ovbiagele and Kristen Hardy, will continue to explore topics of interest to lawyers in the early stages of their careers. They'll be back in March 2025. Two new podcasts – Listening to Lawyers and Practice Pulse – will expand the State Bar's family of WisLawNOW podcasts, giving lawyers more access to discussions that explore life as a lawyer, including law practice management, technology, and lawyer wellbeing. In this episode of Bottom Up , we talk to the hosts of the new podcasts. Both provide insight on the topics they plan to explore in 2025. Listening to Lawyers is hosted by Amber Ault, who manages the State Bar's Wisconsin Lawyers Assistance Program (WisLAP). The special project provides the Wisconsin legal community with opportunities to hear personal stories from Wisconsin lawyers about adversity, perseverance, resilience, transformation, and hope. Look for the first episode in January 2025. Practice Pulse , hosted by State Bar Practice Management Advisor Brent Hoeft (Practice 411), will focus on practice management and technology. Brent will invite experts to discuss how lawyers can leverage existing technology and explore new tools to keep their law firms healthy and efficient. Topics like marketing, business operations, and generative artificial intelligence, will also be discussed. Look for the first episode in February 2025.

November 26, 202432 min

Episode 23: A Path to Sports Law with Milwaukee Bucks Chief Legal Officer Mike Sneathern

In this episode of the Bottom Up Podcast, produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin, co-hosts Emil Ovbiagele and Sam Huddleston Baker talk with Mike Sneathern, chief legal officer for the Milwaukee Bucks. Mike has worked 20-plus years for the 2021 NBA champs. The conversation explores Mike's journey from his native California to Wisconsin, his experiences in the Marquette University Sports Law Program, and the unique challenges faced by sports lawyers today, including the impact of sports betting and music rights. The discussion also highlights the importance of networking and being a team player in the legal profession, especially for young lawyers aspiring to enter the field of sports law. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guests 02:48 Journey to Sports Law: Mike's Story 06:11 The Appeal of Sports Law for Young Lawyers 08:59 Career Path and Internships in Sports Law 11:54 The Role of a General Counsel in Sports 15:04 Navigating Challenges in Sports Law 17:54 The Impact of Sports Betting on the Industry 21:12 Advice for Aspiring Sports Lawyers 30:09 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

September 30, 2024Episode 2250 min

Episode 22: Data Privacy and Artificial Intelligence (AI) with Hiriam Bradley

Will AI replace lawyers? That's one of the questions explored in the latest episode of Bottom Up, produced by the State Bar of Wisconsin. Co-hosts Emil Ovbiagele and Kristen Hardy welcome Hiriam Bradley, an attorney specializing in privacy and technology law. The conversation explores Hiriam's career path, the evolution of privacy law, and the intersection of artificial intelligence and privacy. They discuss the challenges legal professionals face in navigating developing laws, the importance of consumer awareness, and the regulatory landscape in financial services. Hiriam emphasizes the need for lawyers to adapt to emerging technologies and the philosophical implications of data privacy. The episode concludes with a call to view privacy as a fundamental human right and the importance of being diligent about data protection. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Hosts 02:20 Guest Introduction: Hiram Bradley 05:32 Career Path and Early Experiences in Law 10:12 Understanding Privacy Law and Its Evolution 12:45 Challenges in Privacy Law 14:04 Resources for Lawyers on Privacy Law 15:32Intersection of AI and Privacy Law 18:54 Philosophical Perspectives on Data Privacy 22:28 Consumer Awareness and Privacy Literacy 24:37 Regulatory Landscape in Financial Services 26:30 Defining Companies in Privacy Regulations 29:48 Trends in AI Technology and Privacy Regulations 31:13 Balancing Regulation and Innovation 35:01 The Future of AI and Legal Jobs 42:35 Practical Applications of AI in Financial Services 48:39 Closing Thoughts on Privacy as a Human Right