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“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

Hosted by HR Heretics

BusinessManagementInterviews guests

Episodes

206

Latest episode

Dec 2025

Language

EN

About the show

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact? Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader. hrheretics.substack.com

Listen to episodes

60 recent
December 23, 202548 min

The 2026 Recruiting Reckoning & AI Predictions

Today on HR Heretics, we’re excited to cross post a forward-thinking dialogue from Metaview’s 10x Recruiting Podcast on 2026 recruiting predictions, examining AI's transformative impact on talent acquisition, compensation dynamics, agent orchestration, and the evolving relationship between human expertise and algorithmic screening.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINSiadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction: 2026 Predictions Episode Setup(01:00) Prediction #1: The VC Talent Partner Exodus to AI Companies(05:00) Prediction #2: AI Becomes the Default First Screen for Inbound(12:00) Prediction #3: The ATS Becomes Invisible(14:00) Prediction #4: 90% of Sourcing Will Be Automated(15:00) Prediction #5: Outreach Automation Will Be an Unmitigated Disaster(22:00) Sponsor: Metaview(23:00) Prediction #6: Backlash Against Human Data Extraction(26:00) Prediction #7: Social Unrest from White Collar Tech Workers(31:00) Prediction #8: Agent Managers Emerge as High-Status Roles(36:00) Prediction #9: Crazy Comp Packages for Non-Technical Talent(43:00) Prediction #10: Foundation Labs Move Deeper Into Applications(46:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 18, 202524 min

Inside Executive Coaching with Nathan Tanner

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, executive coach Nathan Tanner reveals the real economics of coaching: transparent revenue breakdowns, pricing strategy, and the path from corporate burnout to independent practice. Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NATHAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNathan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathantanner/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:41) The breakdown story (crying on floor)(05:49) “Weekend warriors” critique(09:00) Fire your coach every year?(10:03) Sponsor: Metaview(12:47) $240K → $335K revenue reveal(14:20) First full year: $335K breakdown(19:14) “Hire Nathan or do nothing” strategy(22:16) Burning the boats philosophy This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 16, 202519 min

Blitzscaling's Chris Yeh on Infinite Learning, Staying Cool, and Building Strategic Networks

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Chris Yeh discusses infinite learning, staying relevant through younger generations, Blitzscaling adaptability principles, assessing founders through shared experiences, and negotiating equity by establishing fair processes before debating numbers.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH CHRIS, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINChris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisyeh/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction: Infinite Learning & Blitzscaling Adaptability(01:00) The Source of Energy, Public Speaking & Performance Background(02:00) The Power of Unlearning & Staying Relevant(04:08) Blitzscaling: Hiring for Adaptability & Resilience(07:12) Picking Companies: Thinking Like an Investor(09:08) Assessing Founders: The Travel & Summer Camp Effect(10:14) Sponsor: Metaview(11:36) Negotiating Founder Shares & Equity Splits(17:00) Compensation Philosophy & The Numbers Hack(19:13) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 11, 202529 min

Why Zapier Requires 100% AI Fluency (And How They Measure It)

One of our biggest episodes of this past year was with Zapier’s CPO Brandon Sammut, ICYMI or as a refresher, in this essetial Heretics 101 feature, he demonstrates AI agents transforming HR workflows: from automating bar raiser interview prep to performance evidence collection, while explaining their four-level AI fluency framework.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(00:26) Why AI Fluency is Required for 100% of New Hires(02:00) The 4-Level AI Fluency Rubric: Capable to Transformational(03:38) Demo 1: Bar Raiser Interview Agent(04:33) 730 Employees, 10 VPs - Job Level Discipline(05:47) Agent Explains WHY It Chose Each Question(06:27) The Spectrum of AI Interview Approaches(08:18) Demo 2: Performance Review Evidence Collection(09:21) The Blob Notes Emoji: Triggering Evidence Collection(10:33) Don’t Let Perfect Be the Enemy of Good(11:21) Future Vision: AI Coach Idling in Slack(13:25) “It’s Like Steroids” - Not AI Overlords Taking Over(13:51) Sponsor: Metaview(15:41) Live Demo: Blob Notes in Action(18:13) Employee Choice vs Mandates: Marketing Over Requirements(19:27) Leadership Doing Real Work - Few Companies Have Real Use Cases(21:00) Demo 3: One-on-One Meeting Coach (Most Sophisticated Build)(23:20) Calculating Talk-to-Listen Ratios(24:40) Scaling HR Business Partners - Every Company’s Manager Problem(26:07) Implementation Choices: On-Demand vs Required(27:35) Transparency: What Data? Where Stored? Who Sees It?(28:44) The Iron Man Suit vs AI Overlords(28:56) Where to Find Brandon - LinkedIn(29:12) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 9, 202523 min

The VP Who Asked to Be Demoted: A Masterclass in Self-Awareness

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, former Meta HR leader Cynthia Bazlamit (Baz) Shrauner talks about demoting herself twice for fulfillment over title. She also describes Facebook’s pandemic hiring frenzy that ballooned teams 10x, the subsequent brutal layoffs, and the effect of DEI resource groups on the company.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH BAZ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINBaz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:17) Intro(01:06) The First Demotion Story: Getting Demoted at Facebook(05:17) The Second Demotion: Hiring Christine Ellis & Doing It Again(10:00) “Comparison is the Thief of Joy” - The Ego Struggle(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview(12:59) Meta’s Pandemic Hiring Spree: “We Were Sloppy”(15:44) The Layoffs: Three Waves of RIFs, 8,000+ Cuts(19:42) DEI & Resource Groups: From Fun to Corporate Chaos(24:00) Closing This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 4, 202549 min

Bryan Power on Exits, Loyalty, and Why Your Goodbye Matters More Than You Think

Bryan Power, who recently left Nextdoor after seven years, discusses his viral article on quitting properly, why exits define careers, manager failures, and the Growth by Design-Cursor acquisition’s implications.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH BRYAN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINBryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanpower/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__LINKS:For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Introduction & Power Hour Returns(00:55) Bryan’s Viral “How to Quit” Article(04:00) Why Your Exit Becomes Your Entire Story(06:00) Why Companies Don’t Teach Employees How to Leave(09:00) The Loyalty Expectation Problem(12:27) Sponsor: Metaview(14:38) How Managers Screw Up Exits(21:57) No Long Goodbyes: The Best Timing Advice(24:13) What to Do When Someone Resigns(27:30) Maintaining Relationships After You Leave(29:26) Growth by Design Acquired by Cursor(36:33) The State of the Recruiting Market(40:00) AI Native Skills & The Future of Entry Level Hiring(46:49) Cringey Corporate Lingo Game(50:55) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

December 2, 202521 min

Why L&D Fails (And How to Fix It) with Fidelma Butler

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Couchbase CPO Fidelma Butler talks about modern L&D: building contextual leadership frameworks, meeting employees in workflows, activating peer teaching, and addressing career development’s promotion fixation.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:16) Intro(01:21) Building L&D from Scratch at Couchbase(02:45) Defining Good Leadership: The Three-Way Framework(05:04) Meeting People Where They Are: Escaping Theoretical Land(06:06) When Survey Results Disagree with CEO Priorities(07:35) Embedding L&D in the Fairway of the Job(08:19) Leaders Teaching Leaders: Why It Works(11:36) Coaching for Senior Leaders: Addressing the Intangibles(13:35) Hiring for Modern L&D: New Skills Required(14:25) The Career Development Problem: Everyone Wants It, Nobody Does It(16:30) Why Career Ladders Become Checkbox Exercises(19:01) The Ladders Dilemma and Being Transparent with Employees(20:10) Treating Employees Like Adults(20:59) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

November 25, 202522 min

The Post-Acquisition Power Reckoning

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, former co-founder and executive coach Adam Weber examines power dynamics and identity transformation following Amplify’s acquisition by 15Five, revealing insights on leadership evolution and maintaining authentic culture through organizational integration.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:57) Post-Acquisition Power Dynamics: The Humbling Moment(03:00) HR’s Inflection Point: More Responsibility, Same Resources(05:12) Top 5% HR Leaders: Show Courage and Speak the Language of Business(06:59) What ‘Understanding the Business’ Really Means(08:15) The Reality Check: HR’s Impossible Workload(10:25) Sponsor: Metaview(11:47) The Troubling Trend: AI Up, Leadership Development Down(13:50) The Future of Management: NVIDIA’s Model and Investing in ICs(18:18) Ruthless Experimentation and the Death of Best Practices(20:00) Building Credibility: Sharing Both Wins and Losses This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

November 20, 202522 min

The HRBP Role Is Broken: Here's How to Fix It

For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Disruptive HR founder Lucy Adams dissects HR’s fundamental trust problem: why designing policies around your worst employees destroys organizational performance, and how to reimagine the business partner role.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(04:15) HR’s Fundamental Trust Problem & Designing for the Minority(08:30) Sponsor: Metaview(09:00) The Opportunity Cost of Distrust(12:00) The HRBP Role: Why It’s Broken & How to Fix It(15:30) What HR Leaders Are Talking About: DEI, AI & Merit(19:53) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

November 18, 202521 min

Why Giving Stock to Everyone Is Harder Than It Sound

On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli debate equity compensation philosophy: whether companies should extend stock options to all employees or reserve them for senior roles, weighing moral imperatives against investor dilution concerns and implementation complexity.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience.* Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview.* It only takes minutes to get up and running.KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDINNolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/__For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/—TIMESTAMPS:(00:00) Intro(01:07) Question about stock options for all employees(01:48) Carta’s philosophy on making everyone an owner(03:32) Moral case for giving equity to everyone(05:07) Story about Carta’s employee refresh and Fred Wilson(06:21) Challenge of educating employees on equity(08:28) Pendo’s approach to equity education and round tables(09:19) Setting expectations with $0 default value(10:08) Sponsor - Metaview(11:29) Cost of labor adjustments for equity across locations(13:00) Administrative challenges of geo-based equity adjustments(14:16) Employee communication and comparison issues(16:10) Board tension over equity dilution decisions(17:28) Attracting great talent requires competitive compensation(18:06) Moral case and taxes of giving equity(19:00) Importance of working with equity experts(19:46) Closing thoughts on geo strategy and communication(21:34) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

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