Stephan Livera Podcast

Hosted by Stephan Livera

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783

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Oct 2026

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About the show

In-depth Bitcoin interviews and education. Stephan Livera talks with the builders, developers, founders and thinkers shaping Bitcoin, covering self-custody, Lightning, payments, mining, markets and where Bitcoin goes next. Clear, practical conversations to help you understand Bitcoin and use it well.

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October 27, 2026Episode 78539 min

Morgen Rochard: Holding Bitcoin Is Not a Financial Plan | SLP785

Holding Bitcoin is not a financial plan. That is the starting point of Morgen Rochard's new book, Bitcoin Personal Finance, and of her return to the show. Bitcoin can fix the money, but it does not fix under-saving, spending habits or the money scripts people carry with them. Her book aims to help readers build a plan with Bitcoin as the core balance sheet asset rather than a token allocation. Morgen is the founder of Origin Wealth Advisers and a financial planner who works with Bitcoin-holding clients. In her words, there are plenty of personal finance books and plenty of Bitcoin books, but none that combine the two to show people what to do once they own Bitcoin. Stephan and Morgen discuss what Bitcoiners and the fiat world each get wrong, and matching assets to when the money is needed, using the example of a preschool fund put into Bitcoin near the top. They also cover how large a fiat emergency fund should be, and why forced selling tends to arrive with job losses and bear markets. She explains why most homes and renovations are consumption, why single rental properties often earn less than a REIT, and how leverage magnifies the damage when something goes wrong. They also get into debt as a campfire that can become a wildfire, and the narrow case where a Bitcoin-backed loan makes sense. Morgen explains that borrowing to fund spending has sent some of her clients back to work. The conversation closes on spending-based retirement planning, tax planning versus tax preparation, charitable giving, trusts, and why she prefers educating children over restrictive trust rules. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:21 — Why She Wrote Bitcoin Personal Finance 01:11 — Holding Bitcoin Isn't a Financial Plan 02:45 — What the Fiat World Gets Wrong 04:02 — Hot Trades vs Your Actual Goals 05:40 — Chasing Returns vs a 20% Savings Rate 08:23 — Match Assets to When You Need Them 11:31 — How Big a Fiat Emergency Fund? 15:52 — Is Your Home a Store of Value? 18:02 — Rentals vs REITs vs Bitcoin 19:31 — Leverage and Single-Property Risk 24:06 — Debt Is Like a Campfire 27:16 — When Bitcoin-Backed Loans Make Sense 30:05 — Spending-Based Retirement Planning 32:12 — Tax Planning Isn't Tax Preparation 35:09 — Trusts and Trusting Your Kids 36:58 — No One-Size-Fits-All Allocation Links: Morgen Rochard on X: https://x.com/MorgenRochard Origin Wealth Advisers: https://www.originwa.com/ Bitcoin Personal Finance (book site): https://bitcoinpersonalfinancebook.com/ Bitcoin Personal Finance on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1394394055

October 26, 2026Episode 78446 min

Debt, Oil, AI and Bitcoin: A Gradual Print Until It Isn't | James Lavish SLP784

James Lavish explains why he expects a gradual print to turn into a big one, what weak Treasury auctions signal, and what he got wrong about Bitcoin this cycle. Timestamps 00:00 — Intro 00:48 — Markets: Warsh, Oil and a Narrow Rally 04:22 — How Much Debt Will AI Need? 08:41 — Outgrowing the Debt: A Polite Fiction 10:50 — Brent at $108, 10-Year at 5.13% 13:44 — Weak Auctions and Who Buys Treasuries 15:54 — Oil Shock: Supply, Not Demand 18:03 — If CoreWeave Trips: The Downside Case 19:56 — How the Fed and Treasury Would Respond 24:15 — The Base Case: Growth and Nominal Inflation 28:49 — Big Print or Gradual Print? 32:58 — Gradual Until All Bets Are Off 34:07 — Why Faith in the Dollar Breaks Slowly 38:11 — What James Got Wrong This Cycle 39:54 — Decentralization and Politics as Hurdles 41:59 — JPMorgan's Shift and Career Risk 43:45 — Why Bitcoin Over AI?

October 21, 2026Episode 78352 min

Plan Your Second Passport Before You Need It | Alex Recouso SLP783

Official Podcast Episode: https://stephanlivera.com/783 Alex Recouso argues that Bitcoin solved capital mobility but not human mobility: you can move money across borders without permission, yet you still need permission to move yourself. His answer is that everyone should think about a second passport before they need one, because, as he puts it, you can't buy insurance once the house is on fire. Alex is co-founder and CEO of CitizenX. He says he discovered the idea of alternative citizenship at 14, and that understanding Bitcoin in 2020 convinced him it was the missing piece. CitizenX sells citizenship by investment programs and, by his account, advises governments, including El Salvador, so he is not a neutral observer. He splits buyers in two: citizenship programs suit people with high liquidity and low mobility, while residency and naturalization suit people with high mobility and less capital. They cover the main tiers, from cheaper Plan B passports to Caribbean programs, Turkey, El Salvador and Argentina's newly announced program, and why he prefers donation routes to government-approved real estate. The downsides get airtime too. Alex expects EU pressure to cost Caribbean programs their visa-free access or make them unattractive. He argues European rules can change overnight, citing Italy's flat tax and Spain's closed golden visa. And naturalization through residency is cheaper but never guaranteed. They close on AI's limits as an advisor, rising versus established countries, and compounding in a low-tax place. Timestamps 00:00 — Intro 00:43 — Bitcoin Solved Capital, Not Human, Mobility 02:04 — Selling Citizenship: Countries Competing 05:14 — Buy or Earn: Liquidity vs Mobility 06:57 — Why Program Prices Rise and Fall 08:55 — Weak Passports vs Plan B Buyers 11:32 — Donation vs Real Estate Routes 13:35 — Three Tiers: Plan B, Caribbean, Outliers 17:06 — Argentina's Program: Costs and Country Risk 20:09 — EU Pressure and Schengen Risk 23:12 — What Countries Gain or Risk 25:52 — Beyond Visa-Free: Settlement Rights 28:43 — HENRYs, Urgency, and Sequencing 31:14 — Insurance Before the House Is on Fire 33:06 — Naturalization Is Cheaper but Not Guaranteed 37:00 — Changed Rules in Portugal, Italy, Spain 41:07 — UAE, Singapore and Citizenship Limits 42:49 — CitizenX vs Traditional Firms 47:08 — Can AI Replace Citizenship Advisors? 49:02 — Rising Countries: High Risk, High Reward 51:34 — Lower Taxes and Compounding Links: https://x.com/recouso https://x.com/CitizenX https://citizenx.com/ Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

October 19, 2026Episode 78237 min

Debanking and Bitcoin Business Accounts in the EU | Prashanth Chandrashekar SLP782

Prashanth Chandrashekar argues that much of Europe's debanking comes down to how banks score transfers. Money arriving from a crypto exchange's account is treated as a higher-risk third-party payment, while a transfer between two accounts in your own name passes with far fewer flags. Bringin's answer is a named virtual IBAN for each customer, which he says lowers the risk of being debanked rather than removing it. Prashanth, who is from India, started Bringin after moving to Estonia holding Bitcoin and finding he couldn't easily spend it. He now runs the company's consumer app and its new business accounts. They cover MiCA's licensing reset, which by his figures left only about 30% of earlier firms licensed but lets the survivors passport across the EU; accounts closed without explanation under tipping-off rules; and how named IBANs differ from the deposit IBANs exchanges hand out. On the consumer wallet, built on Spark, he is direct about the trade-offs: operators are mostly centralized and can see payments, though they cannot move funds alone. On Bringin for Business, he describes pilot users such as mining-rig sellers paying suppliers abroad, plus stablecoin support and accounting exports. The custody model differs from the consumer app: keys sit in a hosted Turnkey enclave with spending policies, Bringin holds an extra key in multi-director setups, seed export is discouraged, and ownership changes run through Bringin's backend. Third-party euro payments were promised within days of recording, and corporate cards are not yet available. Disclosure: Stephan is a small investor in and advisor to Bringin. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:37 — MiCA: Costly but Passportable 03:28 — Debanking: Why Banks Block Exchange Flows 07:04 — Named vIBANs vs Exchange Deposit IBANs 11:25 — Spark Self-Custody and Its Trust Trade-offs 13:03 — Why Banks Are Harder on Businesses 15:22 — Who Joined the Business Pilot 18:08 — Beyond Debanking: Accounting Headaches 20:31 — Business Keys in Turnkey Enclaves 24:53 — Key Rotation Runs Through Bringin's Backend 26:24 — Roadmap: Third-Party Payments, No Cards Yet 30:45 — Next Customers: Stablecoins and Agents 33:31 — Regulation Outlook: DAC8 and Data Risk 34:39 — AI Agents, MCP, and Payments Links: https://x.com/prashanthc123 https://x.com/bringinxyz https://bringin.app/business Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

October 8, 2026Episode 78143 min

Seed Phrases vs Key Sharding: Multisig's UX Trade-offs | Setzeus SLP781

Setzeus argues that 90% of people will never properly use seed phrases and hardware wallets, and that services like Privy and Turnkey, which split a key behind an email or phone login, are a good-enough floor for self-custody. Stephan pushes back on what that gives up: verifiability, portability across devices, and a degree of vendor lock-in. Setzeus (Jesus Najera) runs SetDev, a Bitcoin L2 and metaprotocol engineering and security shop whose biggest client has been Stacks. He built BitScript and founded Cofund, a cross-chain multisig web app aimed at families, fiduciaries, and founders. The conversation opens on the recent run of hacks, including the Coldcard incident, and his view that the cryptography is not broken but AI has made attacks on everything around it cheaper. They cover Justin Drake's "bunker mode" post, why Bitcoin builders get nerd-sniped by technology over product, why multisig adoption remains small, and whether ETFs are better than nothing for people who won't self-custody. On Cofund itself, Setzeus explains spending policies built from signer sets, thresholds, and rules on Taproot script paths. He is plain about the limits: on Bitcoin only the signer set is enforced on-chain, spend caps rely on the client without covenants, rotating a signer means moving funds to a new set, and the free tier charges a 1% transaction fee. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:37 — From SetDev's L2 Work to Multisig 03:20 — After the Coldcard Hack: Why Self-Custody? 07:56 — Justin Drake's Bunker Mode and ECDSA 10:13 — Are Bitcoiners Bad at Building Products? 15:59 — Seed Phrases vs Privy-Style Key Sharding 20:25 — Trade-offs: Verifiability and Lock-In 25:35 — Recommending Self-Custody After Hacks 30:40 — Families, Fiduciaries, and Founders 34:25 — Spending Policies via Taproot Script Paths 37:24 — Limit: Bitcoin Spend Caps Not On-Chain 39:59 — Key Rotation Means Moving Funds 41:11 — Cofund Pricing and Fees 42:03 — Thesis: Multisig Becomes Joint Accounts Links: https://x.com/getcofund https://x.com/setzeus https://getcofund.com/ Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

October 5, 2026Episode 78044 min

Smarter Web's Capital Structure and MORE Preferred | Andrew Webley SLP780

Andrew Webley walks through Smarter Web's capital structure—ordinary shares as growth equity, a repaid short convert, Coinbase credit, and MORE as the income preferred. Webley is CEO of The Smarter Web Company (LSE: SWC), the UK's largest publicly traded Bitcoin treasury. He traces the path from Hargreaves Lansdown to listing on Aquis, then the LSE Main Market, while building toward roughly 2,747 BTC on the balance sheet. The conversation covers ordinary shares versus preferred equity, why SWC repaid its short convert, how the Coinbase credit facility fits a "buy leverage when cheap" playbook, and the launch of MORE—an income preferred designed alongside SWC growth equity. Webley contrasts treasury companies with ETFs and spot Bitcoin, stressing Bitcoin-per-share growth, liquidity for institutions, and GBP denomination without US dividend withholding. He also flags the downsides: treasury structures amplify Bitcoin volatility, management can mess up capital allocation, and in a drawdown there is no guarantee that equity, credit, or preferreds will be available. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:25 — Hargreaves Lansdown to Smarter Web 02:09 — Saylor Pivot Was His Bitcoin Moment 04:00 — Listing the UK Treasury Play 08:44 — Clean Balance Sheet Structure 11:25 — Coinbase Credit at the Bottom 14:32 — Debt vs NAV Reporting 19:45 — Bitcoin-per-Share vs Total Return 21:32 — How Institutions Actually Buy 25:02 — Treasury Co vs ETF vs Bitcoin 28:12 — MORE Preferred Equity Explained 30:17 — Amplification Cap at 35% 33:11 — Sterling Preferred Advantage 37:49 — Downside Risks: Volatility and Execution 40:27 — Drawdowns and Uncertain Capital Access Links: https://x.com/asjwebley https://x.com/smarterwebuk https://www.smarterwebcompany.co.uk/ Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

October 3, 2026Episode 77945 min

Lightning in x402 and Agent Payments | Ben Carman SLP779

Bitcoiners built L402 for a Lightning-native web. Crypto built x402 for agents — and early volume is mostly stables. Ben Carman helped get Lightning into the x402 standard, and argues the pragmatic move is to meet that stack in the middle rather than wait for L402 alone. Ben Carman of Spiral rejoin me to unpack HTTP 402 Payment Required, facilitators versus Coinbase Commerce, why agentic payments are still near zero today, and why AI agents may adopt Bitcoin faster than humans — because models already know sats, invoices, and QR codes. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:50 — L402, x402, and MPP 01:09 — What HTTP 402 Actually Is 02:41 — Meet x402 in the Middle 03:44 — Facilitators and Coinbase Default 06:06 — x402 Standard vs Coinbase Commerce 07:26 — Stables Dominate Early Volume 08:03 — Agentic Payments Still Near Zero 08:55 — Agents Already Know Bitcoin 12:05 — Personal Agents vs B2B Agents 13:03 — Pay-Per-Query Agent Wallets 16:14 — Businesses on Bitcoin Are Easier 16:39 — AI Climb and Builder Craft 22:29 — Won't Fund OpenAI — Still Uses Them 25:38 — Cost Deflation = Human Freedom 28:57 — Best AI tools as of Oct 2 31:16 — Terminal Bench and Real Evals 32:25 — Bench Maxing vs Real Feel 34:59 — Four Years From ChatGPT 36:56 — Quantization Without the LARPs 39:51 — Mesh Alliance and Mesh LLM 42:37 — Goose, LDK, Think Big Links: https://x.com/benthecarman https://x.com/spiral_xyz Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

October 1, 2026Episode 77859 min

Why Bitkey Ditched Seed Phrases | Clay Garrett SLP778

Bitkey ditched seed phrases for a recovery-focused 2-of-3 design: an app key, hardware key, and Block server key that use phones, hardware, and cloud access to help people retain control of their funds. Clay Garrett, Bitkey lead at Block, joins Stephan Livera to explain the design trade-offs: safety as security plus recoverability, cloud backup that needs your hardware to decrypt, and why Bitkey does not treat vendor lock-in as its ethos. They dig into recovery paths, multi-vendor trade-offs, transfer-without-hardware limits, Recovery Contacts and inheritance, a working FROST prototype, what covenants could move on-chain, chain code delegation, and privacy-conscious Electrum options. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro 00:19 — Clay Garrett Joins — Bitkey at Block 00:56 — Bitkey V2 and the 2-of-3 Model 03:03 — Safety Means Access and Recoverability 04:11 — App+Hardware Spends Without Block 07:09 — Cloud Backup and Instant Phone Swap 09:27 — Lost Hardware and the 7-Day Delay 12:14 — Vendor Lock Is Temporary, Not Ethos 15:44 — Multi-Vendor After Coldcard 21:20 — Which Wallet Fits Your Threat Model? 26:49 — $5 Wrench and Transfer Without Hardware 30:04 — Recovery Contacts and Inheritance 36:06 — FROST Prototype Already in the Repo 38:04 — On-Chain Looks Like Single-Sig 39:34 — Covenants Could Move Policy On-Chain 42:09 — Chain Code Delegation — BIP 89 46:10 — Electrum, Mempool, and Custom Servers 52:08 — Industry After Coldcard Changed 55:21 — Wallet Plus Free-for-Life Co-Signing Links: https://x.com/clay_garrett https://bitkey.world/ Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

September 29, 2026Episode 77751 min

Bitcoin Savings vs Casino Exchanges | Julian Liniger SLP777

Most crypto exchanges are built like casinos: they chase the next hot token, prediction market, or trading product. Relai is building a different category—a savings brand for people who want to accumulate Bitcoin, hold it in self-custody, and build wealth over the long run. Julian Liniger explains why serving patient savers requires a different product, message, and business model. The conversation also explores why rising living costs are pushing Europeans to rethink ordinary savings, and why the temptation to get rich quickly can drive people toward momentum trading and leverage. Julian makes the case for a longer time horizon: Bitcoin savings is less about chasing the next move and more about consistently building a position through changing market conditions. Supporting context includes Relai's MiCA compliance journey, where regulatory overhead is costly but can also raise the bar for smaller competitors. Julian also discusses the company's self-custody model and reports more than 100,000 users holding over 20,000 BTC in their own wallets—not under Relai management. The episode covers how a Bitcoin-only company can earn revenue through services around long-term ownership while keeping the savings proposition at the center. Timestamps: 00:01 — Europe's Cost of Living Squeeze 03:11 — Why Europeans Still Don't Get Bitcoin 07:37 — High Time Preference & Get-Rich-Quick 10:31 — Bitcoin Needs Patience Again 10:54 — AI Hype vs Bitcoin as Savings 14:58 — Bitcoin Is Where You Keep Your Winnings 21:42 — Leverage, Treasury Cos & Risk 23:46 — Relai Private Loans in Europe 29:03 — MiCA: Overhead and Moat 33:11 — Bitcoin Savings vs Casino Exchanges 35:26 — 100k Users, 20k+ BTC Self-Custody 37:49 — Retail App vs Relai Private 40:00 — Self-Custody Phone Wallet 42:58 — Seven-Figure Raise in a Bear Market 45:12 — AI for Building and Securing Relai 50:00 — Living Costs Drive Bitcoin Search Links: https://x.com/julian_liniger https://x.com/relai_app Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack

September 24, 2026Episode 77642 min

Bitcoin PIPEs v2 | Misha Komarov SLP776

Bitcoin soft-fork debates around CTV, CSFS, OP_CAT, and OP_VAULT keep stalling — and Misha Komarov of Allocinit argues you can emulate much of that covenant behavior with cryptography instead of changing consensus. Misha joins Stephan to unpack Bitcoin PIPEs v2: a Witness Encryption design that locks a signing key under an NP statement so a valid zero-knowledge proof decrypts the key and produces an ordinary Schnorr spend. Bitcoin L1 only checks a normal signature. They compare PIPEs v1 (Functional Encryption / richer post-covenants) with v2 (Witness Encryption / binary pre-covenants), ciphertext sizes from ~300 TB toward single-digit terabytes, DKG and 1-of-n setup assumptions, non-custodial vault and shared-pool use cases, contrasts with cosigner models like Sigbash, and how Allocinit’s Shielded Bitcoin design differs from Shielded CSV’s client-side validation approach — plus open cryptanalysis challenges and a path toward implementable code. Timestamps: 00:00 — Intro: Misha & Bitcoin PIPEs v2 00:27 — Background: BitMessage to =nil; 01:31 — Soft-Fork Fatigue & Nice-to-Haves 03:24 — Emulate Opcodes Without Soft Forks 04:54 — Witness Encryption Unlocks Keys 06:01 — Witness Encryption vs Bitcoin Witness 09:00 — PIPEs v1 vs v2: FE to WE 11:39 — Ciphertext Size & Cost Trade-offs 15:28 — Vaults as the Unhappy Path 16:23 — PIPEs vs Sigbash Cosigner 18:05 — DKG Setup & 1-of-n Trust 21:11 — Shared Vaults & Lending Use Cases 23:24 — Beyond Canonical OP_VAULT 26:35 — Shielded Bitcoin vs Shielded CSV 32:17 — Self-Custody Peg-In and Peg-Out 37:14 — On-Chain Footprint Walkthrough 39:42 — Security Challenges & Code Roadmap Links: https://x.com/nemothenoone https://x.com/allocinitxyz Stephan Livera links: Follow me on X: @stephanlivera Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe to Substack