Law and the Future of War

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May 2025

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Through conversation with experts in technology, law and military affairs, this series explores how new military technology and international law interact. Edited and produced by Dr Lauren Sanders and Dr Simon McKenzie, the podcast is published by the Asia-Pacific Institute for Law and Security. Until July 2024, the podcast was published by the University of Queensland School of Law. Note: the views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other organisation (such as Government, or Departments of Defence), unless the speaker specifically attributes their comments to that organisation.

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May 20, 2025Episode 545 min

The Geneva Conventions and the Third World - Srinivas Burra

Send a textIn this episode, Dr Simon McKenzie talks with Associate Professor Srinivas Burra about the Third World and the Geneva Conventions. They discuss the value of taking a Third World perspective of international law, and how being attentive to the view from these State helps explain the form and operation of international humanitarian law. Srinivas Burra is an Associate Professor of Law at South Asian University in New Delhi. He has written on the Geveva Conventions, teaches international humanitarian law, and has worked with the ICRC and other international organisations.Further readingSrinivas Burra, 'Four Geneva Conventions of 1949: a Third World View.' Revisiting the Geneva Conventions: 1949-2019 (Brill Nijhoff, 2019) 190-214.Boyd Van Dijk, Preparing for War: The Making of the 1949 Geneva Conventions (Oxford University Press, 2022).Antony Anghie, Imperialism, sovereignty and the making of international law (Cambridge University Press, 2007).Giovanni Mantilla, Lawmaking Under Pressure: International Humanitarian Law and Internal Armed Conflict (Cornell University Press, 2020)Legality of the Threat or Use of Nuclear Weapons (Advisory Opinion) [1996] ICJ 3, Dissenting Opinion of Judge WeeramantryChris Jochnick and Roger Normand, “The Legitimation of Violence: A Critical History of the Laws of War” (1994) 35(1) Harvard International Law Journal 49-95.Chris Jochnick and Roger Normand, “The Legitimation of Violence: A Critical Analysis of the Gulf War” (1994) 35(2) Harvard International Law Journal 387-416.

May 7, 2025Episode 453 min

The Geneva Conventions at sea - André Smit (ICRC)

Send a textAs part of the 75th anniversary series on the Gevena Conventions, Lauren Sanders speaks to André Smit - the ICRC Regional Legal Adviser on Maritime Matters (Asia-Pacific) when he visited Australia in September 2024. They discuss the applicability of Geneva Convention II (GC II) on the Amerlioraton to the region and challenges for states in applying their obligations under GC II in the event of a maritime conflict in the region. André supports the work of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Asia and the Pacific region from the ICRC Regional Resources Network (RRN) in Thailand. The role focusses on advancing the regional understanding of international humanitarian law applicable to armed conflict at sea, strengthening the application of other legal protection regimes at sea, supporting the work of other ICRC métiers and ICRC Delegations on related files, and supporting the ICRC institutional thinking on its future positioning in Asia and the Pacific. His work experience includes practising law; serving as officer in the South African National Defence Force; and service in the South African Foreign Ministry as counsel to Government on International Law. In the military, he served at unit-, training-, Joint Operations-, and Defence Headquarters-levels retiring as a senior officer supporting policy and international law. He provided operational legal support to operations and supported the force preparation of naval infantry, maritime air operations squadrons (helicopter and fixed wing), the submarine service. The culmination of his time as an instructor was serving as Director of the Departmental Course on International Humanitarian Law. After military service, as State Law Adviser (International Law) in the foreign Ministry, he fulfilled legal and diplomatic functions (at the level of counsellor), represented the Government in various bilateral and multilateral diplomatic forums, and co-drafted South Africa’s submissions to the International Court of Justice. He was a long-standing member of the South African National Committee on International Humanitarian Law. He lectured at various universities and other training institutions on topics including air and space law, law of the sea, the interfaces of human rights and international humanitarian law in military operations, and at different diplomatic academies with minor publications on related topics of maritime operations.

January 15, 2025Episode 346 min

The Geneva Conventions and Non-State Armed Groups - Katharine Fortin

Send a textIn this episode, Simon speaks with Dr Katharine Fortin about non-international armed conflicts, focussing on the intersections between IHL, international human rights law and armed non-State actors. Dr Katharine Fortin is a senior lecturer of public international law and human rights at Utrecht University's Netherlands Institute of Human Rights. She is the Editor in Chief of the Netherlands Quarterly of Human Rights and founder of the Armed Groups and International Law blog. Her book The Accountability of Armed Groups under Human Rights Law (OUP, 2017) won the Lieber Prize in 2018. She is Co-Investigator on the Beyond Compliance Consortium: Building Evidence on Promoting Restraint by Armed Actors. Katharine has a LLM and PhD from the Utrecht University. She is a qualified solicitor in the UK and previously worked at Norton Rose Fulbright, the Council of Churches of Sierra Leone, the ICC and the ICTY.Additional resources:Fortin, Katharine ‘Mapping Calamities: Capturing the Competing Legalities of Spaces under the Control of armed non State Actors without erasing everyday civilian life’ (2023) 8(1) Social Science and Humanities OpenMatthew Bamber-Zryd, 'ICRC engagement with armed groups in 2024' Humanitarian Law & Policy Blog (31 October 2024)Katharine Fortin and Ezequiel Heffes (eds), Armed Groups and International Law: In the Shadowland of Legality and Illegality (Edward Elgar, 2023)Naz Modirzadeh, 'Cut These Words: Passion and International Law of War Scholarship' (2020) 61(1) Harvard International Law Journal 1.Zoe Pearson, 'Spaces of International Law' (2008) 17 Griffith Law Review 489.Helen Kinsella, The Image Before the Weapon: A Critical History of the Distinction between Combatant and Civilian (Cornell University Press, 2015)Kieran McIvoy, 'Beyond Legalism: Towards a Thicker Understanding of Transitional Justice' (2007) 34(4) Journal of Law and Society 411.Sally Engle Merry, The Seductions of Quantification: Measuring Human Rights, Gender Violence and Sex Trafficking (University of Chicago Press, 2016)Ana Arjona, Rebelocracy: Social Order in the Colombian Civil War (CUP, 2016)Zachariah Cherian Mampilly, Rebel Rulers: Insurgent Gov

January 1, 2025Episode 257 min

The Geneva Conventions in History - Helen Kinsella and Giovanni Mantilla

Send a textIn this episode, Simon speaks to Professor Helen Kinsella and Associate Professor Giovanni Mantilla, two leading experts on the history and formation of the Geneva Conventions and IHL more generally. They discuss the negotiations leading up the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol, exploring some of the political tensions that sits behind the provisions of these key legal texts. This includes how the law treats non-state actors and non-international armed conflict, as well who gets the right to wage war. Helen Kinsella is a Professor of Political Science and Law at the University of Minnesota. Her research focuses on the theorization of gender and armed conflict and she is currently working on a book on sleep in war and another on the histories of the laws of war through the United States' wars against Native peoples. She is the author of The Image before the Weapon (Cornell University Press, 2011), which won the 2012 Sussex International Theory Prize. Helen has a PhD in Political Science and an MA in Public Policy from the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, and a BA in Political Science and Gender Studies from Bryn Mawr College.Giovanni Mantilla is an Associate Professor in the Department of Politics and International Studies at Cambridge University, Fellow of Christ’s College, and Fellow of the Lauterpacht Centre for International Law. His research focusses on the operation of multilateralism, particularly practices of social pressure and pressure management in diplomacy, global governance, and international legal processes. His book Lawmaking under Pressure: International Humanitarian Law and Internal Armed Conflict (Cornell University Press, 2020) received the 2021 Francis Lieber award.Additional ResourcesHelen M Kinsella and Giovanni Mantilla, 'Contestation before Compliance: History, Politics, and Power in International Humanitarian Law' (2020) 64(3) International Studies Quarterly 649.Helen Kinsella, 'Settler Empire and the United States: Francis Lieber on the Laws of War' (2023) 117(2) American Political Science Review 629. Vasuki Nesiah, International Conflict Feminism: Theory, Practice, Challenges (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2024)Thomas Gregory, Weaponizing Civilian Protection (Oxford University Press, 2025)Tom Dannenbaum, 'Siege Starvation: A War Crime of Societal Torture' (2021) 22(2) Chicago Journal of International Law 368.Boyd Van Dijk, Preparing for War: The Making of the Geneva Conventions (Oxford University Press, 2022) Craig Jones, The War Lawyers: The United States, Israel and Juridical Warfare (Oxford University Press, 2020)Janina Dill, Legitimate Targets? Social Construction, International Law and US Bombing (Cambridge University Press, 2014)

December 18, 2024Episode 124 min

75 Years of the Geneva Conventions - Lauren Sanders and Simon McKenzie

Send a textIn this series introduction, Dr Lauren Sanders and Dr Simon McKenzie talk about the Geneva Conventions, and what is in store for the Law and the Future of War podcast over the next few months.

December 6, 20241 hr 32 min

A functional approach to the legal review of Autonomous Weapon Systems - webinar recording

Send a textThis episode is a recording of the Asia-Pacific Institute for Law and Security webinar hosted on 21 November 2024 on the functional approach to the legal review of autonomous weapon systems (AWS).AWS are no longer limited to science fiction. Conflicts in the Ukraine and Gaza demonstrate an increased trend toward the use of autonomy in the use of force in armed conflict. This webinar will focus on the legal review obligation under Article 36 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions, and will consider how states can determine the legality of AWS. The event will launch a new book by Dr Damian Copeland on the topic and include a panel of experts discussing the challenges in ensuring the development and use of AWS are lawful and ethical.Ms Vanessa Wood (Australia’s Ambassador for Arms Control Counter-Proliferation) will make some opening remarks, followed by a panel discussion moderated by Dr Lauren Sanders (APILS). Dr Wen Zhou (ICRC Legal Division), Ms Netta Goussac (SIPRI), Dr Natalia Jevglevskaja (APILS) and Dr Damian Copeland (APILS) will speak on the panel. Dr Rain Liivoja (APILS) will host the webinar.See Dr Copeland's book here: A Functional Approach to the Legal Review of Autonomous Weapon Systems, Brill International Humanitarian Law Series Volume 72, 2024.

September 20, 2024Episode 1147 min

Regulation of novel technology: Trusted Autonomous Systems: Simon Ng and Clare East

Send a textIn this episode we continue our futures mini-series, and speak with Dr Simon Ng and Ms Clare East about the challenges of adopting novel technology and influencing its regulation. In particular, as the Chief Scientist and Manager of Law, Regulation and Assurance at the Trusted Autonomous Defence Cooperative Research Centre, we hope to tease out the regulatory and engineering challenges associated with advancing adoption of novel military technologies that have been learned through TAS’ tenure.Dr Simon Ng is Chief Technology Officer at TAS. Graduating from Monash University with a PhD in 1998, he completed a Post-Doctoral Fellowship at CSIRO before joining DSTG, where he developed techniques for military operations experimentation, and applied systems methods to surveillance and response, space operations and autonomous aerial systems. He was previously DSTG Group Leader for the Joint Systems Analysis and Aerial Autonomous Systems Groups, and Associate Director of the Defence Science Institute. He is Australia’s National Lead on The Technical Cooperation Program Technical Panel “UAS Integration into the Battlespace”, and is a Graduate of the Australian Institute of Company Directors. Clare East is General Manager – Law, Regulation & Assurance at TAS, and Director of East Consulting Services. Clare is a lawyer by background with significant expertise in modern regulatory approaches, and has helped a range of different organisations respond to and harness the challenges and opportunities posed by rapid change. Clare has more than ten years in public policy and regulation, having started her career at the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet before moving on to a number of private and public sector roles, including as Manager, Maritime Regulation at the Australian Maritime Safety Authority and Director, Regulatory Standards and Policy at the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator.Additional resources:Alondra Nelson, The Right Way to Regulate AI: Focus on Its Possibilities, Not Its Perils, Foreign Affairs, 12 January 2024J. Robert Oppenheimer, International Control of Atomic Energy, Foreign Affairs, January 1948Kazuo Ishiguro, Klara and the Sun, 2021Robotic and Autonomous Systems Gateway (RAS Gateway), Trusted Autonomous Systems Rachel Horne (2024) Navigating to smoother regulatory waters for Australian commercial vessels capable of remote or autonomous operation. PhD by Publication, Queensland University of Technology.Australian Department of Industry, Science and Resources, The Australian Government’s interim response to safe and responsible AI consultation, January 2024

June 5, 2024Episode 1343 min

The Woomera Manual on the International Law of Military Space Operations - Dale Stephens

Send a textIn this episode we hear from Professor Dale Stephens on the long-awaited release of The Woomera Manual on the International Law of Military Space Operations, how it came about, what it is intended to do, and where international law might be headed in relation to military space operations - as well as the challenges in drafting an international law Manual dealing with the law in a highly changing and novel domain. Released in May this year, the Woomera Manual focuses on the law as it is, and creates a set of Rules and accompanying Commentary dealing with international law in a military space context.Professor Dale Stephens CSM FAAL is a Professor at the University of Adelaide and a Captain in the Royal Australian Navy Reserve. He has occupied senior legal positions in the Australian Defence Force and undertook numerous operational deployments. He is Director of the Adelaide University Research Unit on Military Law and Ethics. He researches and teaches in the areas of International Law, Space Law, Military Operations Law and Law of Armed Conflict. He is Chair of the SA Red Cross IHL Committee. He was awarded his LL.M and SJD from Harvard Law School and is a Fellow of the Australian Academy of Law. Additional Resources:The Woomera ManualThe Artemis Accords OEWG on Responsible Behaviours in Space

May 8, 2024Episode 1254 min

Bounded Autonomy, Meaningful Human Control and Military AI - Jan Maarten Schraagen

Send a textIn this episode we dive into issues of human-machine teaming, with human factors engineer Jan Maarten Schraagen. Having edited the recently released book, Responsible Use of AI in Military Systems, Jan Maarten is an expert on how brittle technologies influence joint cognitive system performance. In this episode, in addition to exploring the book, we explore the outcomes of the 2023 REAIM Summit and what we can hope for from the 2024 Summit; talk about multidisciplinarity in the responsible military AI debate; and how we should be thinking about capability envelope of military AI - that is, how it can or should be restricted in the conditions under which it can operate. Jan Maarten Schraagen is a cognitive systems engineer at TNO, and studies how brittle technologies influence joint cognitive system performance. He is a human factors specialist with broad experience in optimizing work processes and teamwork design. He is particularly interested in making work safe, productive and healthy, and improving resilience in sociotechnical work systems.Additional resources:Jan Maarten Schraagen (ed), Responsible Use of AI in Military Systems, CRC Press, 2024Ekelhof, M.A.C. (2018). Lifting the Fog of Targeting: “Autonomous Weapons” and Human Control through the Lens of Military Targeting. Naval War College Review, 71(3), 61-94.Ekelhof, M.A.C. (2019). Moving beyond semantics on autonomous weapons: Meaningful human control in operation. Global Policy, 10(3), 343-348.Endsley, M.R. (2017). From here to autonomy: Lessons learned from human-automation research. Human Factors, 59(1), 5-27.Taddeo, M., & Blanchard, A. (2022). A comparative analysis of the definitions of autonomous weapons systems. Science and Engineering Ethics, 28, 37-59.Herbert Simon, Bounded Rationality, Utility and Probability, NPA, 1990Peeters, M.M.M., van Diggelen, J., van den Bosch, K., Bronkhorst, A., Neerincx, M.A., Schraagen, J.M., Raaijmakers, S. (2021). Hybrid collective intelligence in a human–AI society. AI and Society, 36(1), 217-238.Schraagen, J.M.C., Barnhoorn, J.S., Van Schendel, J., & Van Vught, W. (2022). Supporting teamwork in hybrid multi-team systems. Theoretical Issues in Ergonomics Science, 23(2), 199-220.Van der Kleij, R., Schraagen, J.M.C., Cadet, B., & Young, H.J. (2022). Developing decision support for cybersecurity threat and incident managers. Computers & Security, 113, 102535.Schraagen, J.M.C. (2023). Responsible use of AI in military systems: Prospects and challenges. Ergonomics, 66(11), 1719 – 1729.

April 9, 2024Episode 845 min

OpinioJuris Symposium on Military AI and the Law of Armed Conflict - Lena Trabucco

Send a textPart of the ongoing debate about the lawfulness of autonomy in military systems in the manner in which the technology integrates with and interacts with its human masters. The term Meaningful Human Control (or MHC) has garnered particular relevance in this debate. Today we speak with Dr Lena Trabucco about her upcoming OpinioJuris Symposium on Military AI and the Law of Armed Conflict, co-edited with Dr Magda Packholska, on this issue, as well as her work on legal challenges associated with emerging technology more broadly.Lena is a research fellow, a visiting scholar at the Stockton Center for International Law at the US Naval War College, and research fellow at the Technology, Law and Security Program at American University College of Law and the University of Copenhagen. Her research focuses on the intersection of international law and emerging military technology, particularly autonomous weapon systems. She has multiple projects examining human control throughout an autonomous weapon system life cycle. Previously, she was a post-doctoral researcher at the Centre for Military Studies at the University of Copenhagen. Lena received a PhD in law from the University of Copenhagen and a PhD in international relations from Northwestern University.Additional resources:Opinio Juris Symposium on Military AI and the Law of Armed ConflictKevin Jon Heller, 'The Concept of 'The Human' in the Critique of Autonomous Weapons', 14 Harvard National Security Journal (2023)Magdalena Pacholska, 'Military Artificial Intelligence and the Principle of Distinction: A State Responsibility Perspective', Israel Law Review (2022), 1–21Rebecca Crootof, 'A Meaningful Floor for 'Meaningful Human Control', Temple International & Comparative Law Journal, Vol. 30, 2016Kenneth Payne's SubstackKiller Robot Cocktail Party (Lena and Brad Boyd's substack)